S02.E08: Chapter Twenty-One: House of the Devil

[thefreeair]

11 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

Since when did Betty/Archie become a controversial ship? From day one, there have been purists of the comics who are adamant that a show based on the Archie comics must have the infamous Betty/Archie/Veronica triangle.

Yes, no doubt Betty and Jughead are popular but I see a lot of comments about Betty/Archie online. My issue is that so much of it seems less about the specific characters in this series and more just, "that's how it is in the comics".

Sorry, I couldn't find the sarcasm font but you can take all my remarks tongue in cheek. The gist was that the Bughead lobbyists have not frightened me away from embracing other pairings - *insert expression of mischief here* - and that I am ready to try out some new dynamics on this show. 

From a character standpoint, completely separate from the comics, why not explore Archie and Betty? They've got history (in the show universe) and a connection that has barely been touched on and I'm curious. Maybe it will click. Maybe it will be just as much a trainwreck as the Serpent tomfoolery that's been amplifying all the worst things about the show this year. I'm not exactly here for fine art, so I'm happy to just see where it goes.

Edited December 7, 2017 by thefreeair

[Mabinogia]

3 minutes ago, thefreeair said:

From a character standpoint, completely separate from the comics, why not explore Archie and Betty?

For me, my main concern is the effect it would have on the quartet. Jug obviously let Betty go not because he's done with her but because he loves her and is worried. How will he react when Archie swoops in and steals her away? Veronica may not have said she loves Archie, but will she be just fine watching Archie and Betty hook up knowing Archie just told her he loved her (Veronica)? It will change everything. Unless they pretend it won't, which is completely unrealistic. Unless these kids are swingers. Hmm, that's a possibility. And what will happen if they switch back?

I really wanted this show for the quartet of friendship more than watching lover swapping. So my concern is how they are going to address their friendship if two friends who were with their other two friends now hook up together. It could be interesting or it could be a train wreck.

[WhosThatGirl]

6 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

For me, my main concern is the effect it would have on the quartet. Jug obviously let Betty go not because he's done with her but because he loves her and is worried. How will he react when Archie swoops in and steals her away? Veronica may not have said she loves Archie, but will she be just fine watching Archie and Betty hook up knowing Archie just told her he loved her (Veronica)? It will change everything. Unless they pretend it won't, which is completely unrealistic. Unless these kids are swingers. Hmm, that's a possibility. And what will happen if they switch back?

I really wanted this show for the quartet of friendship more than watching lover swapping. So my concern is how they are going to address their friendship if two friends who were with their other two friends now hook up together. It could be interesting or it could be a train wreck.

This too. As much as I love Bughead, I loved the core four friendship and a Barchie hookup is going To ruin that.

[thefreeair]

8 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

For me, my main concern is the effect it would have on the quartet. Jug obviously let Betty go not because he's done with her but because he loves her and is worried. How will he react when Archie swoops in and steals her away? Veronica may not have said she loves Archie, but will she be just fine watching Archie and Betty hook up knowing Archie just told her he loved her (Veronica)? It will change everything. Unless they pretend it won't, which is completely unrealistic. Unless these kids are swingers. Hmm, that's a possibility. And what will happen if they switch back?

I really wanted this show for the quartet of friendship more than watching lover swapping. So my concern is how they are going to address their friendship if two friends who were with their other two friends now hook up together. It could be interesting or it could be a train wreck.

Haha, nah, it'll be fine. The MO this year is to sweep gross betrayals of friendship right under the rug as soon as the plot calls for it. No reason to assume this won't get the same treatment. 

[WhosThatGirl]

Which is why this season isn’t working for me. I agree, everything has been swept under the rug fairly quickly and it’s not good storytelling if you ask me.

eta; I know I’m posting a lot but if this is the last episode I’m commenting on, I’m going out strong.

Edited December 7, 2017 by WhosThatGirl

[truthaboutluv]

8 minutes ago, thefreeair said:

From a character standpoint, completely separate from the comics, why not explore Archie and Betty?

I don't care about the show exploring Archie and Betty because I expected it when I heard they were doing a series based on the Archie comics. Not to mention that it's a teen show on the CW. Of course they're going to couple swap all over the place. It's also one of the main reasons that I had no interest in watching the show. However, I saw a trailer for the series and it looked nothing like I expected, so I got mildly curious and even then I really only checked in like mid-way through the season.

But yeah, I always figured they'd eventually do the Betty/Archie/Veronica triangle. The issue for me is that I was one of those Archie comics readers that hated the Betty/Archie/Veronica triangle. Even as a tween, it never made sense to me why these two girls were chasing after a loser like Archie. Also, I've never been a fan of triangles, particularly ones involving core characters of the show. No matter how well the writers try, it always, always ruins the dynamic of the characters, ruins the relationships and the characters. 

I accept that others are un-bothered by things like that but once those lines get crossed, I can never buy that the characters can all be hunky dory friends again. And in the case of this show, we've already had Jughead's insecurity of Betty running back to Archie, clearly stated. So then would viewers really buy that he'd be okay with seeing her with Archie or that they'd just be fine once Betty and Archie inevitably end as well? Of course as others have said, considering the personality changes these characters have had between Season 1 and 2, I wouldn't be surprised if we're suddenly supposed to act like that conversation between Betty and Jughead never happened.

My hatred for triangles was what kept me from watching The Vampire Diaries for the first two seasons, no matter how many good things I heard about it because I'd also read the premise of the books and knew that ultimately the core of the series would be a girl torn between two brothers. But one day of being laid up with the flu, and I got sucked into it by binge watching the first two seasons on Netflix. And sure enough, there was eventually Elena's coupling with Damon after declaring how much she loved his brother Stephan. And for the rest of the series we were all supposed to pretend it wasn't completely creepy and icky that Elena banged two brothers. And that's not even mentioning how the fan wars inevitably spill into the responses to the show, the responses to characters/actors, etc.

I know many hail Joey/Pacey as the greatest teen drama love story of all time (I disagree - now admittedly I hated Joey) and yeah Katie and Josh had great chemistry but in many ways that triangle ate the show and did ruin it in some ways. It's why I always respected that Josh Schwartz, when he did The O.C., never bowed to the pressure of those who wanted the writers to explore Summer and Ryan because "omg, it would be so hot". Josh was adamant that Ryan and Seth were practically brothers and Ryan would never do that to Seth and Summer wouldn't do that to Seth. And sure he broke the characters up but they just brought in other love interests. 

And really for me, I have no interest in Betty and Archie because I see no indication that they won't be as much of a fail as all of Archie's other relationships because I maintain that Archie is a shit romantic partner. Though, like I said before, ironically that makes him consistent to the comic book character. I don't root for Betty with Archie because Archie to this point has been a complete flake who jumps from girl to girl and seems to want people when he can't have them. YMMV. 

Edited December 7, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[WhosThatGirl]

4 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

I don't care about the show exploring Archie and Betty because I expected it when I heard they were doing a series based on the Archie comics. Not to mention that it's a teen show on the CW. Of course they're going to couple swap all over the place. Interestingly that's one of the reasons I had no interest in watching the show, until I saw a trailer for the series and it looked nothing like I expected, so I got mildly curious.

But yeah, I always figured they'd eventually do the Betty/Archie/Veronica triangle. The issue for me is that I was one of those Archie comics readers that hated the Betty/Archie/Veronica triangle. Even as tween, it never made sense to me why these two girls were chasing after a loser like Archie. Also, I've never been a fan of triangles, particularly ones involving core characters of the show. No matter how well the writers try, it always, always ruins the dynamic of the characters, ruins the relationships and the characters. 

I accept that others are un-bothered by things like that but once those lines get crossed, I can never buy that the characters can all be hunky dory friends again. My hatred for triangles was what kept me from watching The Vampire Diaries for the first two seasons, no matter how many good things I heard about it because I'd also read the premise of the books and knew that ultimately the core of the series would be a girl torn between two brothers.

But one day laid up with the flu and I got sucked into it by binge watching the first two seasons on Netflix. And sure enough, there was eventually Elena's coupling with Damon after declaring how much she loved his brother Stephan. And for the rest of the series we were all supposed to pretend it wasn't completely creepy and icky that Elena banged two brothers. And that's not even mentioning how the fan wars inevitably spill into the responses to the show, the responses to characters/actors, etc.

I know many hail Joey/Pacey as the greatest teen drama love story of all time (I disagree - now admittedly I hated Joey) and yeah Katie and Josh had great chemistry but in many ways that triangle ate the show and did ruin it in some ways. It's why I always respected that Josh Schwartz, when he did The O.C., never bowed to the pressure of those who wanted the writers to explore Summer and Ryan because "omg, it would be so hot". Josh was adamant that Ryan and Seth were practically brothers and Ryan would never do that to Seth and Summer wouldn't do that to Seth. And sure he broke the characters up but they just brought in other love interests. 

And really for me, I have no interest in Betty and Archie because I see no indication that they won't be a fail as much as all of Archie's other relationships because I maintain that Archie is a shit romantic partner. Though, like I said before, ironically that makes him consistent to the comic book character. I don't root for Betty with Archie because Archie to this point has been a complete flake who jumps from girl to girl and seems to want people when he can't have them. YMMV. 

Aside from the DC thing because Pacey and Joey forever! I agree with all your feelings on ships.

Also I loved The OC for the exact reason that the friendships were never ruined by a triangle. Ever. It was great. Also the core four had other romances out of the four, which is what caused the drama and breakups. If Riverdale could do that I would be impressed. But alas they seem to be going exactly where I thought they would.

I don’t ship Archie and Betty because not only is Archie terrible, I don’t see anything romantic. When they are in scenes together, it feels so forced. The writers seem to be trying to build something that doesn’t work for me. 

Also.. that last scene in this episode just proves to me how awful this situation looks. For both the characters of Archie and Betty. Archie broke up with Veronica who he claims he loves but there’s Betty. That’s not a good guy. And Betty.. who I would think got that Jughead was breaking up with her in some way to protect her is already back on the Archie train? Like I feel like while Betty hated why Jughead broke up with her, she sort of understood. This last scene with those two makes me dislike them both.

Edited December 7, 2017 by WhosThatGirl

[thefreeair]

3 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

I was one of those Archie comics readers that hated the Betty/Archie/Veronica triangle. Even as tween, it never made sense to me why these two girls were chasing after a loser like Archie.

Oh, totally. Me too! I was always hoping that Betty and Veronica would hook up and leave Archie to his own feckless devices. If I thought the show had the balls to go there, B&V would be my OTP here. Ideally, Riverdale would be a B&V Power couple, Asexy Jug scoobying with Bets, and Archie NEVER singing while he explores polyamory with Josie, Reggie and Cheryl.

But, for better or for worse, we've signed on for a cheesy teen drama - triangles are going to happen. And with the way they're rolling out the romances, I'm ready for a shakeup.

[Misty79]

20 minutes ago, thefreeair said:

Oh, totally. Me too! I was always hoping that Betty and Veronica would hook up and leave Archie to his own feckless devices. If I thought the show had the balls to go there, B&V would be my OTP here. Ideally, Riverdale would be a B&V Power couple, Asexy Jug scoobying with Bets, and Archie NEVER singing while he explores polyamory with Josie, Reggie and Cheryl.

But, for better or for worse, we've signed on for a cheesy teen drama - triangles are going to happen. And with the way they're rolling out the romances, I'm ready for a shakeup.

Ha, I would sign up for that show! I'm pretty sure I used to fan fiction some of that. 

Obviously the biggest issue with a B/A hookup at this point is the impact it has on the core friendships, for that reason I can see the argument for bringing in outside love interests rather than initiating the triangle.

Having said that I actually do think the B/A actors have chemistry. More than B/J this season IMO. Last season I agree the Bughead thing had some wings but I'm not feeling it at all this season. Unfortunately that's likely a deliberate move by the writers to open the door for B/A. 

At the end of the day this is a CW show aimed at teens, it was always going to be hard for the writers to resist the siren call of the triangle. Particularly given how canon it is in the comics. I personally don't mind a well done triangle. It feels almost heretical to admit that on here though. 

Edited December 7, 2017 by Misty79

[bara007]

I think one of the many reasons if was uncomfortable watching Betty doing that dance - is that she was very sad during it.       Like you felt that it was something she doesnt want to do, yet she saw a reason for it. That wasnt Dark Betty at all!

 

It kind reminded me a lot of Gossip Girl Blair dance in the season 1, in front of Chuck. He kinda felt in love her after that, because that she had let her herself go in such a way... She was feeling sexy and wanted to do it. This wasn't the case her at all.

I think the main reason the mother Alice hadn't stopped it is - they have shown she was in the back of the bar, and didn't see what was going on, until later - only that makes sense.

[PeekaBoo]

Oh my...

Where to start! It was predictable? I just knew when they showed the previews with Varchie and I had hoped that Bughead would have been spared but I guess they were also doomed to fail and this time it might just stick....

I have very mixed views on this episode, its dark and depressing, so goddamn depressing... I'm missing the first season now, just because then it seemed like a teen drama show, kids going to school, solving a crime, fucking a teacher, okay but now, this season, I  just don't know what to make of it... I understand they wanted to try and have the show get picked up for a second season but if THIS is what they were aiming for in the first place, they should have made it that way form the beginning instead of making these huge 180s that we've been seeing so far.

The whole Varchie break-up was a bit stupid... sooo predictable..

Ok, so they're going Barchie... Surprise, surprise... Being pro-bughead,, I am disappointed. I can understand that it needs to happen, I can understand why they can't avoid it, but it's happening at the worst time for the worst reasons. I'm not going to repeat what most of you have said already, but it's so just, disheartening... Damn you show! I can't see them succeeding in having a great relationship with everything that's happening. Betty is on the verge if not already going through a breakdown from all the crap that is going on (hence the cringe-worthy dance)... I just won't be able to buy it when they've both just recently said I love yous to their significant others and now they're going all eyeing eachother, really?!?!?! Come one show, been there, done that, try harder show!!! If they give all the scenes that Bughead has been deprived of, then that's it, I will just despise the show.

I'm hating the threat of a triangle, but wouldn't it a quadrangle (sp?)?? I mean, jughead dumped her but not because he stopped loving her, will they idly watch their exes smooching and still be friends?!?!

Big kudos for Alice going back to her Serpent roots in her own Alice way... She actually seemed fun! And the Serpents welcomed her with open arms? After all the crap she's been writing about the SouhSide?? Ahhhh, the wonders of TV universes!  Loved the short Falice banter, it was short and sweet but you could see the tension there, they have a past together.... Loved FP's little line there at the diner, it meant a lot... I am officially a Falice shipper now, lol....

It was interesting the whole thing with Mr. Svensen, so okay, he's the surviving kid of the murders but why is he keeping an eye on Cheryl (or is it Josie?).... In the comics, its revealed that Clifford wasn't the dad of the twins, right? It was some other guy tjat Kughead was sent to talk to, so...

And Cheryl isn't being subtle now is she? Poor Josie, getting stuck there!!! It was a bit of a comedic relief!

And Jughead, oh, that poor kid...  IT is getting annoying and pathetic that he just isn't getting afreaking break!!! Do they really want to push the character to take a quick tip by the train tracks or something? Not funny at all... THe scene with FP at the end was heartbreaking though... Jug really thought he had done everything right to help him but it kinda backfired didn't it?!?! But em, on a different note, if FP's out of jail, can't Jug now go to Riverdale High if he wanted to?

And lastly, the cringe-fested dance OMG!! I covered my eyes and thought how another song that I liked had been ultimately ruined.... They didn't need to go there and I still didn't understand why NO one stopped her!! Weird... but ehm... Since Betty did dance, is she technically a serpent now?!?!

Still not sure what they're trying to do with the show, what they're aiming for.... The whole biker gang shit is getting tiresome now... Yes, we know, its a biker gang, NOTHING can come out good out of there, why point that out every episode...

[kmcarte]

1 hour ago, Mabinogia said:

I really wanted this show for the quartet of friendship more than watching lover swapping. So my concern is how they are going to address their friendship if two friends who were with their other two friends now hook up together. It could be interesting or it could be a train wreck.

I think having Betty and Veronica develop into rivals for a while makes total sense.  It was always a little odd and rushed that Veronica immediately wanted to be Betty's friend and that they got so close so fast first season.  Their friendship has always been somewhat underlined by the fact that both of them have prominent characteristics that the other has no liking or respect for.  We saw some of this come out when Betty was made to attack veronica by the BH, she wouldn't normally have said the stuff she did, but it was still stuff that she believed.  

 

They can make it back to being friends eventually, but for now there's a lot between them that is left unsaid to preserve their friendship.  

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, thefreeair said:

Haha, nah, it'll be fine. The MO this year is to sweep gross betrayals of friendship right under the rug as soon as the plot calls for it. No reason to assume this won't get the same treatment. 

That's what I'm afraid of.

[WhosThatGirl]

2 minutes ago, Sonoma said:

I think I'm in the minority but I don't see Archie and Betty "looking" at each other differently as ridiculous or necessarily bad. Nor the end of Bughead, Beronica, and Varchie. I haven't even seen a triangle yet. They just "looked" at each other! This show is always going left when you think they are going right.

Well the vo at the end implies Archie Was looking at her differently. I don’t know why they would include that of nothing is going to Come from it. 

I want to enjoy this show again, I just feel like it lost something this season so I might not come back for a while. Maybe after the winter break? Maybe later, maybe season finale. 

I don’t know. I don’t want to watch the foursome be all miserable about couple switching and watch Betty and Veronica fight or be rivals, female friendship is pretty rare on tv and now they seem to have decided to resurrect the triangle. So I think I’ll have to wait this out.

Edited December 7, 2017 by WhosThatGirl

[Dee]

I doubt there will be much couple switching, other than the iconic V/A/B love triangle, because I can't see Veronica and Jughead ever being paired romantically.

[thefreeair]

1 hour ago, Misty79 said:

Obviously the biggest issue with a B/A hookup at this point is the impact it has on the core friendships, for that reason I can see the argument for bringing in outside love interests rather than initiating the triangle.

Having said that I actually do think the B/A actors have chemistry. More than B/J this season IMO. Last season I agree the Bughead thing had some wings but I'm not feeling it at all this season. Unfortunately that's likely a deliberate move by the writers to open the door for B/A. 

At the end of the day this is a CW show aimed at teens, it was always going to be hard for the writers to resist the siren call of the triangle. Particularly given how canon it is in the comics. I personally don't mind a well done triangle. It feels almost heretical to admit that on here though. 

I'm fine with triangles too (though I'm on a steady diet of K-Dramas of late, so that could be influencing my take here!).

As for the core friendships, I'm not afraid of a little impact on them.  I’m okay if things get a bit messy – that’s going to come up when you have the types of teen dynamics the pilot set up. I mean the Bug and Varch pairings could have just as easily had the same impact. V knowing B’s history and feelings re: Archie. Jug having some insight into Archie’s relationship to Betty. I think a lot of opportunities were missed last season to really flesh out Archie’s take on Bughead and Betty’s take on Varchie. Everyone accepted everything a little too smoothly and rode off into the sunset, but I don’t think any of that underlying stuff went away and I think it should be explored.

I want to know more about A&B as friends. They had no time to develop last year – barely shared any scenes alone after the pilot. And yet, Betty was Archie’s first phone call after what happened to his dad in the first ep. That character beat did more for me than a whole season of lip service to their life long relationship.

Plus, I don’t see why the purity of the core four dynamic (if ever there could be such a thing among teens with crossed relational wires) is some untouchable thing when they’ve barely explored these relationships at all outside of the ships. Develop some complexity and build a bit of history first before you worry about how colouring outside of lines is going to impact them.

[WhosThatGirl]

It’s not really a triangle, it’s a square.   I think what worries me is that I fear if Betty and Archie will start something and the show makes it like her romance with Jughead was nothing and was only a mere obstacle and then Archie starts to have feelings for Veronica still, and then it’s the iconic triangle. With Jughead just being a mere roadblock. I hope that isn’t the case.

In season one Jughead and Betty had some really great moments. Yes I feel the show has completely runied them in season 2 but they were really good in season one. It really breaks my heart how they’ve been treated this season.

Im also really dreading that Barchie will probably get to have couple moments that Bughead was never given. 

[Misty79]

42 minutes ago, thefreeair said:

I want to know more about A&B as friends. They had no time to develop last year – barely shared any scenes alone after the pilot. And yet, Betty was Archie’s first phone call after what happened to his dad in the first ep. That character beat did more for me than a whole season of lip service to their life long relationship.

Plus, I don’t see why the purity of the core four dynamic (if ever there could be such a thing among teens with crossed relational wires) is some untouchable thing when they’ve barely explored these relationships at all outside of the ships. Develop some complexity and build a bit of history first before you worry about how colouring outside of lines is going to impact them.

Yes, I really agree with this too. There's plenty of potential to develop the friendships in the core group more, and that will only help the show going forward to have those dynamics fleshed out. I think one of the weaknesses of this season is that we've seen too little interaction between the core four outside of their couplings. I want to see more B+V and more B+A . For that matter I'd like to see Cheryl brought into interact with the core four on a more regular basis too. 

I do feel sorry for the Bughead shippers, because although B+J have had all these scenes together they haven't evolved the romance between the two much at all. It's just been angst. That must be disappointing if you're invested in that ship. 

Edited December 7, 2017 by Misty79

[Dobian]

18 hours ago, Snookums said:

So, at least they wrapped up the plot literally no one cared about: The Mystery Janitor! But it sounds like that crime has at least inspired the BH in some way so the whole excuse to break up Arch and Ronnie has something to occupy itself with. 

The mystery janitor was like a character out of Scooby Doo.

[jay741982]

1 hour ago, Dee said:

I doubt there will be much couple switching, other than the iconic V/A/B love triangle, because I can't see Veronica and Jughead ever being paired romantically.

Iconic for being about a douchebag flip flopping loser with two girls who deserve better fighting over this loser.

[truthaboutluv]

34 minutes ago, Sonoma said:

We know Bughead is endgame.

They are? I wouldn't be so certain of that with the random crap fest this show has turned into barely a few episodes into their second season. YMMV.

[WhosThatGirl]

I really hope Bughead isn’t dead. I really enjoyed them in season 1 and the brief moments we got here, despite the showrunners clearly making it known they don’t like Bughead. But I won’t be watching next week, I do however encourage you all to PM me should I miss anything Of importance. Jury’s out  on the rest of the season. Also yeah.. unless someone quotes me this might be my last post. I feel like I’ve talked enough about this episode and this show yesterday and today. And I’m going around in circles and “I’ve been here before, I remember this tree” moments. 

[jay741982]

Yeah I've already said I'm gonna be pissed if Barchie happens and gets what the writers refused to give Bughead. And the relationships of the four can be developed or explored with out goddamm gross couple swapping. And I don't want a gross triangle eating the show. I quit watching VD cause of the gross triangle of Brothers fighting over a girl that I grew to despise. she fell for a guy that intended to kill her Brother at one point snapping his neck but luckily for him he was wearing a ring that made him unkillable.

[truthaboutluv]

I don't think the Betty/Jughead pairing is dead, I'm just not buying that they're clearly endgame that is being messed with to build up to this amazing reunion filled with amazing character development. Honestly, I don't buy that for any of the characters and pairings, with regard to the decision to break up the two couples. Nice as it all sounds, as I said, I think this was done for drama's sake and nothing more, which is fine. Again, that makes it no different than most teen dramas.

Nothing I have seen of the writing on this show, including last season, has convinced me that the writers are adept at creating some beautifully constructed character development and organic drama. This was all done for the cheap and quick thrills, like every other rushed storyline. Most of it will remain shallow and surface level. There will be no amazing beautiful reconnecting of Betty and Jughead, in my opinion. It will be badly written, contrived stuff where the characters flit from one point to another to facilitate whatever contrived drama the writers want for that particular week. 

 

Quote

 I want to see Betty's friendships with Archie and Veronica really explored, including the unspoken triangle dynamic.

But see this doesn't make sense to me. Because are we really going to have a genuine exploration of friendship if said friendships get complicated by a love triangle? I can't see how we can get a genuine exploration of Veronica and Betty's friendship if mere moments after Veronica and Archie are over, Betty and Archie become a thing. Because all that's going to develop is jealousy and tensions.

And any attempts by the writers to make it seem that they are somehow hunky dory best friends despite the romantic complications between the three, would be bullshit. And that would really be a problem if they're thinking of going full steam ahead with the infamous triangle. The fact is, if the show explores the infamous Betty/Archie/Veronica triangle, that friendship dynamic is changed period and from that point onwards, it's Betty and Veronica in some weird pseudo-friendship while they alternate between the same guy. 

 

Quote

I want to see Jughead's demons with his family and as an "outsider" to Betty and Archie's friendship explored. We never even got to see Archie struggle with being the "outsider" to Betty and Jughead, who were his two best friends. 

Haven't we seen Jughead's demons with his family? Frankly, at this point it seems like we've seen too much of Jughead's demons and it'd be nice if the character got to just be normal and happy for awhile without the overkill of angst. And as to the outsider to Betty and Archie's friendship, when we first met Jughead in the first season, he and Archie weren't even speaking. And as for Archie's struggle with being outsider to Betty and Jughead, we saw that with his constant wistful and woeful faces every time anyone referenced Jughead being Betty's boyfriend and Betty talked about being in love with Jughead. It was just hard to know if it was just his being upset about being an outsider to his two best friends or his always looking for the next best thing when he's with someone else. 

As I said, admittedly I may be in the minority, since from my understanding ratings seem to be increasing every week, but I feel like the show is just a clunky, over saturated mess where the writers are throwing everything and the kitchen sink, thinking that makes it interesting. This serial killer crap is shit, the relationships are being poorly handled and contrived as hell and everything is in service of the plot and contrivance. And I frankly do not see that changing. I also disagree that it will stop being dark, since again, ratings have been really good so they may not see a reason to change anything and two, they went this route after last season, clearly believing that people enjoyed the Jason murder mystery so much that this was the direction they were interested in seeing the show go in.

Edited December 8, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[WhosThatGirl]

I think the showrunners dislike Bughead because of how they’ve been writing them lately. I think they always wanted Barchie to be the main couple or wanted the triangle. Bughead wasn’t meant to be forever.

 

Thats why I don’t very much that they are endgame. I don’t think any ship is endgame and yes that makes sense we are only in season 2 but I feel like Bughead has gotten terrible treatment this season.

[catrice2]

I don't know why the CW can't seem to stick to a formula that's working.  With Flash, Arrow and now this show they all have/had terrible sophomore seasons.  I loved Archie comics as a child and always thought the Betty or Veronica thing was silly and that Archie should be with Veronica ..or someone else  The one thing I liked about this show was that they were not going to follow the comics faithfully.   So far there has been a lot of "color blind" casting with no commitment to growing the characters or write for a real ensemble  I am so not interested in the serial killer thing and the only thing I think I might like less is the arrival of Betty's brother.

Riverdale was interesting last year.....this year I struggle to watch..and in fact I read the comments and have yet to watch this episode. 

[mehtotheworld]

Ugh, I was so grateful they shifted the Black Hood story from boring Archie to Betty because Archie is a big ol' bag of boring and dumb, but it's like they took all of Archie's dumb and passed it on to Betty. 

I appreciate all the concern from other posters for the relationships between the core four and all that, but at the end of the day, I don't want Archie anywhere near Betty because he's not compelling to me. Like, at all. I really find both Archie and Veronica to be obnoxious and boring, so if they're paired together and I can easily fast forward, all the better. One of the few times Archie was interesting to me was when he was with Cheryl, but that imploded right quick and it doesn't seem like the writers will go anywhere near that anytime soon. Archie can also be a raging asshole, as his comments to Veronica make obvious. At this point, Archie would only bring Betty down, and she was a teen aged pole dancer in this episode so that's certainly saying something.  No thanks!

I'd really much rather have the show be about Betty and Jughead sleuthing and uncovering weird Riverdale nonsense. If FP and Alice can orbit them and snark each other, all the better. The writers seem to be trying to tie these mysteries to ever expanding circles, but the writing just isn't tight enough for that. It's all so sloppy. 

I think I really miss the Jughead that was so into observing and writing. Am I wrong in thinking that Jughead recognized how toxic the Serpents are? And recognized that FP wasn't a "leader of men" but rather the leader of a violent shithole of a gang? The Jughead who is in charge of the Serpents is just too clichéd for me to give a shit. I just roll my eyes at the "brotherhood of douches" bullshit. What makes it all the more annoying to me is that Jughead and FP actually have a really nice dynamic, ignoring Jughead's foray into idiocy and FP's "heartbreak." Their scene on their bikes was really nice and Jughead's expression was so vulnerable--really wasn't expecting that from Cole Sprouse. FP really does seem to inject something special into the show, except for when he's berating his teenager for doing what he needed to do while his entire family abandoned him.

Really though, Betty's storyline is the most disappointing for me. Last season's Betty would have also recognized how toxic and gross the Serpents are, so this stand by your man and be his Serpent lady by pole dancing is so baffling. Are they going for another Dark Betty breakdown? The prospect is interesting, but I just don't trust these writers to pull off anything interesting. It'll probably be swept under the rug, but Jesus Christ what a destructive thing to do to yourself. The actress really shines and most of the time manages to rise above the material, but not even she could save Betty pole dancing in front of dozens of creeps. There was just so much second hand embarrassment for the character and for the show from that dumb point forward. 

[SourK]

I think they really frakked up the tone this season. They seem like maybe they're going for a West Side Story / Grease kind of thing where the tough kids are not actually that tough, and everybody puts on leather jackets and sings a song or something, but they're being so self-serious about it that it makes me sit there asking myself why the Serpents, and the Black Hood, and the Red Circle are all so lame. This episode was no exception.

On 12/6/2017 at 9:10 PM, SeanC said:

This week in "the show conflates the actors' ages with the characters", Betty (who is, what, 16?) does a poledance at a biker bar while a bunch of adults (including her mom and her boyfriend's dad) watch.

Word. I was moderately uncomfortable last season when Cheryl and Veronica had a sexy dance-off for no apparent reason, but watching Betty do a strip show for no apparent reason blew that away. I also didn't like how the show tried to let itself off the hook by having one of the characters say verbally that it's misogynist before it happened -- as though acknowledging that there's a problem with it makes it okay to do it.

Coming back to the tone thing, it also feels weird, because I think the show simultaneously wants us to believe that this was somehow a cool, fun, harmless thing for Betty to do (that will likely be forgotten immediately), and also a very dark and gritty thing for her to do to prove that she's not so clean and nice. 

On 12/6/2017 at 9:27 PM, bettername2come said:

That dance was weird, but not as weird as Betty's singing continuing while she was doing it. I'm waiting for Betty to go full on split personality at this point, which just makes the pole dancing teenager even creepier. 

I liked Mrs. Cooper in Serpent gear.

Yeah, I also agree that the way they shot and edited that scene was confusing. It almost seemed like the dance was a fantasy sequence and she literally just took off her clothes and finished singing the karaoke song, which would be super disturbed -- even more than doing the dance. Also, wasn't it implied that doing the dance would make her a serpent? Is she a serpent now? Nothing about it makes sense.

On the Alice Cooper thing... I wasn't as into it. I don't like this idea that you put on a leather jacket and somehow it changes your personality. People are who they choose to be -- Alice made choices to be the person she is today, which is different from the person she was X number of years ago when she lived on the south side -- why would she just slip back into it? Was she playacting to try to scare Betty away from the serpents? Are we supposed to believe she was hiding a secret serpent nature all along? Or is it just that the writers got bored with Alice and said, "You know what would be fun? Let's make her a serpent."

[MissL]

Ohh ha! Finally saw the ep and I love  Veronica's mom talking about protection for V and her mom saying "we'd like to see more of Archie. He's brawny. And devoted to you". I laughed out loud. That and "Shankshaw" prison? And the oh hey we're are throwing a party we didn't invite you too awkward moment.  I thought some of you guys said this show wasn't any fun anymore? ;) That stuff was funny.

The way people were piling on Archie looking at Betty I thought 1)he broke up with V which I was surprised when that was not what happened 2) I thought he must have undressed Betty with his eyeballs which is also not what happened. but I admit I'm a bit confused at what they were going for with that scene. I think next ep will help clarify and I'm not going to judge this kid yet. He may just be appreciating this awesome friend he has who is completely open when she loves somebody be it friend or boyfriend. 

wow. I didn't like Jughead in this ep.  I barely liked him before with the moody brooding outsider who still kinda thinks he's better than everybody. But "king?" "Leader of men?"   "He should be honored?".  Come ON. I thought this may also be my strong pushback against the" Bughead is sacred and must be Protected or I quit watching"  thing but I don't feel the same about Betty so ....must be that stupid line they made him say.  I like him ok when he's being friends with Archie.  They have a nice friend chemistry.  And wow FP way to make your kid feel like shit. 

[thuganomics85]

Damn, the Southside Serpents really take their karaoke seriously, apparently.  Had Betty not taken over (while doing her quite problematic striptease), I thought they were going to start rioting over Archie and Veronica bailing midway.  This has to be the weirdest gang on the planet: half of the time they're hitting all the obvious biker gang cliches, the other half they do stuff that I doubt any actual biker gang would ever do.

Basically, it felt like this episode's main purpose was to rest both of the couples, so first we have Archie telling Veronica he "loves" her, but she can't say the same, so that makes things all uncomfortable and tension-filled (despite Fred and even freaking Heromine telling both of them that it's not a huge deal and some people just don't get to that level as quickly), so they break-up.  As for Jughead and Betty, it's the classic tale of Jughead thinking that he will doom everyone around him and doesn't want Betty to go down the same path.  And I guess maybe Penny's veil threat shook him too, although, really, if that ever happened, Dark Betty would kick Penny's ass without breaking a sweat.  But alas, Bughead is done for now, and the episode ends with a shirtless Archie and a scantly-clad Betty staring at one another through their windows.  Hmm....

OK, I get that all of the actors aren't actually teens and eye-candy is the show's thing.  So, I don't get all that worked up over Archie/Veronica because while over-the-top sexualized in typical CW fashion, it's still the normal teens doing teen stuff, or Cheryl parading around in skimpy outfits.  But Betty doing that striptease in the bar really is one of the most awkward things ever.  There wasn't at least one person (besides Jughead or Alice, I guess) that wasn't like "Wait, am I and the rest of these grown-ass people watching an underage girl strip for our pleasure?"  Chris Hansen would have a field day with this lot.

So, while the Black Hood isn't the janitor/victim of the original murders that Tony Todd was talking about, he is likely connected to it somehow.  I wonder if will connected to the guys that beat-up and killed the original killer.

I totally knew FP was putting on a show in order to protect Jughead, but Skeet Ulrich really did a great job a flipping that switch and dialing up the smarmy charisma.  And FP/Alice is so going to happen!

Cheryl continues to be creeping on poor Josie.  And her face when Josie told her about Reggie's offer!  Shit, watch your back, Reggie!

Mid-season finale next week.  I do hope they reveal who the Black Hood is, because that mystery is overstaying it's welcome.

[kissedbyarose]

4 hours ago, mehtotheworld said:

One of the few times Archie was interesting to me was when he was with Cheryl, but that imploded right quick and it doesn't seem like the writers will go anywhere near that anytime soon. 

I thought I was the only one who felt this way! 

Nothing anyone did episode made any sense at all except FP... or maybe I was distracted because he looked amazing. Was Skeet Ulrich always this hot? :)

[PeekaBoo]

59 minutes ago, kissedbyarose said:

I thought I was the only one who felt this way! 

Nothing anyone did episode made any sense at all except FP... or maybe I was distracted because he looked amazing. Was Skeet Ulrich always this hot? :)

I was also into Beryl!! I thought they made a very cute pair and despite Cheryl's over-everything, Archie brought the opposite and it looked like he really cared for her (in that episode). It would have made an interesting ship.

 

And FP, oh my god, what a freaking DILF!! Lol!!! THe eyes, the scruffiness, I have become a devoted serpent follower lol!

Just to clear tings out a bit, was FP just pretending to be "reformed" when he in fact, knew everything that had happened concerning TallBoy and the snake charmer?!?! And did he in fact in his little chat with jughead, kick his son out of the gang? Just need to be enlightened a bit...

There's been so many good comments! I can't believe potential barchie and triangle would cause such a stir!! Well, it should though as it is stupid and absolutely unnecessary but I can come back to that later.

Despite the "controversy" of the ending fo the last episode, with all the short term dramas and break-ups that we've been having, I'm still holding up on freaking out (trying to at least) when it comes to bughead... If they broke up once already only to get together the "day" after without much fuss and having the make-up session betweent jug and toni  pretty much forgotten (thus far), who knows if they're going to do the same thing next episode or having some sort of resolution after the holidays?!?!

I can understand if they do kiss though, I mean they're going through sucky times and they nmight just need that to comfort themselves or something like that.. I know they will have to cover Barchie, they have to, its unavoidable, I just hope fo rmy sake, its a temporary fix!!!

I really am tired of all these triangles, they've managed to avoid them in the OC and even in deep-in-triangles like Felicity for example (yes, going wayyyy back) they still managed to work around it even if it brought a lot of tension in the beginning/ending of season 2.

If the show is really going for Barchie then they really have some explaining to do when ARchie just says I love you to Veronica and Betty recently saying to Jughead "I couldn't stp loving you even if I wanted to", those are strong words to say to the other person and then just to have them go 180 and screw around other people, ehhh, NO!!!!! I wouldn't be buying it for one second... And I hope the show would see it that way too... With all of these reasons  mentioned, i'm holding out before going overprotective over bughead and am chosing to wait and see what happens...  Its good that they're taking a break in a sense, maybe let things cool off and let Jughead go become this dark world hero going on a suicide mission because he suddenly has nothing going for him (sorry, venting out a bit) while Betty becomes better/worse mentally (see how ARchie tackles that, eh?)...

Despite the pair becoming more popular then expected, I don't think the show would stray away from them, I don't think they could even if they wanted to, I am still hopeful. But if they go Barchie and it stays Barchie, then well, screw you show! lol...

No matter what happens concerning Barchie/triangle, I think its very clever for the show to introduce that right now... I mean, they have the time to see the fans reaction and then take that into consideration for an eventual season 3 (not confirmed yet I suppose?)...

Right now I am soooo for Falice... I think out of all the storylines, that one has suddenly peaked a huge interest in yours truly :D :D :D :D BH, biker gangs and woes of the heart can pretty much just scooch on the corner over there, lol!!!

An another thought that came up to me.... When Hermione and Veronica were talking about the I love yous and all that, Veronica was realizing that she never heard one of the parents (or the mother) say I love you to the other and Hermione looked sorta surprised and then the scene cuts to Fred!! Isn't that just... a coincidence... :D :D :D

[bara007]

I have a very different take on the Archie/Veronica and Betty thing in the last scene, interesting.

I think Archie after putting love out there in the open, realised from her obvious reactions that Veronica isn't actually in love with him. And even though he tries to act like it is okay throughout the episode, like it doesn't mind - it still does, it hurts him. He is surprised.

After all they have been together - it had seemed they are both invested in relationship with the same intensity!

But he got to see, as I understand, that Veronica is still the same party girl at hearth (as Betty said the last episodes), and is now having Archie just for some semi-serious fun... Well!! And somehow Veronica didn't try to hide it. I feel from the character, that in the end she is looking for something different - maybe more dangerous!

 

And I think the ending - Archie catching a glimpse of Betty girl next door through the window - meant that at that moment he realised, remembered,  that Betty has really loved him for him (that is what he is looking for), most probably her whole life.... and he let that something precious slip away because he wasn't that interested and got all caught up in the drama of hooking up the new girl dark-haired queen beauty, who happens to be her friend - but with now not much point to it or future it seems.

That he realised that, with a touch of nostalgia - but doesn't mean that next episode he will act upon it !:)

I dont think that Archie is bad guy - he is just looking for something, trying his best, that he hasn't been able to find (or he didnt know where to look...)

[PeekaBoo]

1 hour ago, bara007 said:

And I think the ending - Archie catching a glimpse of Betty girl next door through the window - meant that at that moment he realised, remembered,  that Betty has really loved him for him (that is what he is looking for), most probably her whole life.... and he let that something precious slip away because he wasn't that interested and got all caught up in the drama of hooking up the new girl dark-haired queen beauty, who happens to be her friend - but with now not much point to it or future it seems.

That he realised that, with a touch of nostalgia - but doesn't mean that next episode he will act upon it !:)

I dont think that Archie is bad guy - he is just looking for something, trying his best, that he hasn't been able to find (or he didnt know where to look...)

I  think that its an extent of that "wistful" scene we got in the season finale when veronica caught archie staring at bughead and archie was saying how he wanted the same type of relationship as them with veronica  (or something like that).  He really thought he was there but then she freaked out and everything went to shit... 

And now he realises the opportunity he rejected...

[truthaboutluv]

2 hours ago, bara007 said:

I dont think that Archie is bad guy - he is just looking for something, trying his best, that he hasn't been able to find (or he didnt know where to look...)

I agree with this. Goodness knows I ragged on Archie a lot in the first season, mostly for the horrible singing storyline, and yes he is flaky and an idiot when it comes to girls. But he's also a teenage boy. That's not to stereotype and say all teenage boys are idiots when it comes to girls and relationships but it does allow me to give him more leeway for some of his actions. I also don't think he's ever intentionally been mean or hurtful to anyone. Again, he's just sort of clueless at times. And I have always loved his relationship with his father and how loyal and supportive he is to Fred. So yeah, I like Archie just fine. I just think he makes a shitty boyfriend. 

 

Quote

At this point, Archie would only bring Betty down, and she was a teen aged pole dancer in this episode so that's certainly saying something.  No thanks!

lmao...

 

Quote

Was Skeet Ulrich always this hot? :)

Um, yes. You should rewatch Scream. He was hot even as a crazed psycho. 

 

Quote

I was also into Beryl!! I thought they made a very cute pair and despite Cheryl's over-everything, Archie brought the opposite and it looked like he really cared for her (in that episode). It would have made an interesting ship.

Yeah I can see the potential for Archie and Cheryl. It might just work because they're such different characters. And Madeline's so dynamic of a presence, if she can't make Archie interesting, no one else will. 

 

Quote

I  think that its an extent of that "wistful" scene we got in the season finale when veronica caught archie staring at bughead and archie was saying how he wanted the same type of relationship as them with veronica  (or something like that).  He really thought he was there but then she freaked out and everything went to shit... 

Yeah I thought of that scene too, with Archie so upset about Veronica not saying I Love You. I remember that when he said that, many thought it was a bullshit line to cover up his being jealous over Betty and Jughead because he suddenly decided he liked her in that way. But with his being so upset at Veronica not feeling the same towards him, it does make that line seem more believable.

By the way, can I also say that Veronica keeping Archie somewhat at arm's length is also sort of consistent with the comics because I always felt in the comics that Archie was more into her that she was into him, while Betty was more Archie than he was into her. Which is why it always came across as Archie's wanting Betty when Veronica temporarily kicked him to the curb.

Edited December 8, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[MaggieG]

I am so here for Alice and FP! I don't think I care about anyone else right now.

[Mabinogia]

11 hours ago, mehtotheworld said:

I'd really much rather have the show be about Betty and Jughead sleuthing and uncovering weird Riverdale nonsense. If FP and Alice can orbit them and snark each other, all the better.

now that's a show I'd watch the hell out of!

[AdorkableSars]

18 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

For me, my main concern is the effect it would have on the quartet. Jug obviously let Betty go not because he's done with her but because he loves her and is worried. How will he react when Archie swoops in and steals her away? Veronica may not have said she loves Archie, but will she be just fine watching Archie and Betty hook up knowing Archie just told her he loved her (Veronica)? It will change everything. Unless they pretend it won't, which is completely unrealistic. Unless these kids are swingers. Hmm, that's a possibility. And what will happen if they switch back?

I really wanted this show for the quartet of friendship more than watching lover swapping. So my concern is how they are going to address their friendship if two friends who were with their other two friends now hook up together. It could be interesting or it could be a train wreck.

 

18 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

I accept that others are un-bothered by things like that but once those lines get crossed, I can never buy that the characters can all be hunky dory friends again. And in the case of this show, we've already had Jughead's insecurity of Betty running back to Archie, clearly stated. So then would viewers really buy that he'd be okay with seeing her with Archie or that they'd just be fine once Betty and Archie inevitably end as well? Of course as others have said, considering the personality changes these characters have had between Season 1 and 2, I wouldn't be surprised if we're suddenly supposed to act like that conversation between Betty and Jughead never happened.

 

This so hard. I really adore the Betty/Veronica and Archie/Jughead friendships. I even enjoy the Betty/Archie friendship. IF Barchie happens, especially now, I don't see how that wouldn't permanently affect all of those friendships in a wholly negative way. And if these writers tried to write in any other way, it would be a disservice to us as viewers and to the show as a whole. To me, there is enough to work with here to have storylines and drama without adding partner swapping and love triangles to the mix. Sure, Archie and Veronica could still break up over Veronica being unable to say she loves Archie. And they could all the angst and drama, but then they could work through it, which would still bring drama and angst. And yes, Jughead could still push Betty away to protect her. But then we could see him dealing with gang life (and hopefully leave it eventually) and her dealing with the Black Hood, and then they could work their way back to each other. There is still storylines to be had without making Betty and Archie, or the love triangle of Betty/Archie/Veronica happen. Yes, I know it was a staple of the comics. I think at this point, it is more than fair to say that this show...is not abiding by the comics. So I don't see why this triangle needs to happen. Betty and Archie need to be there for each other as friends right now. And Betty and Veronica. And Jughead and Archie. Down with triangles!

And the whole thing about Veronica being unable to tell Archie she loves him too...the scene where she was talking to Hermonie about it, and said that she hardly even heard her parents say it to each other...it made sense why it was hard for her to say it back to Archie. My heart broke for Veronica there. But I think she is starting to love Archie, even though she couldn't say it. She certainly wants to be with him still.

 

17 hours ago, PeekaBoo said:

I have very mixed views on this episode, its dark and depressing, so goddamn depressing... I'm missing the first season now, just because then it seemed like a teen drama show, kids going to school, solving a crime, fucking a teacher, okay but now, this season, I  just don't know what to make of it... I understand they wanted to try and have the show get picked up for a second season but if THIS is what they were aiming for in the first place, they should have made it that way form the beginning instead of making these huge 180s that we've been seeing so far.

And Jughead, oh, that poor kid...  IT is getting annoying and pathetic that he just isn't getting afreaking break!!! Do they really want to push the character to take a quick tip by the train tracks or something? Not funny at all... THe scene with FP at the end was heartbreaking though... Jug really thought he had done everything right to help him but it kinda backfired didn't it?!?! But em, on a different note, if FP's out of jail, can't Jug now go to Riverdale High if he wanted to?

 

Yeah the differences between not only the characters, but the show alltogether between season 1 and 2 is pretty jarring. You better believe I will keep watching, and I still enjoy the hell out of it (even though it's ridiculous sometimes), but it is getting way too dark and depressing. Even last season, it never felt this dark and sad all the time. 

At this point, I'm not sure I want Jughead back at Riverdale High. At least he has Toni at Southside, who has been a good friend to him. He needs/deserves that with all of shit in his life. Especially if Barchie happens, which will crush him. (And me. But this isn't about me. But it should be. JK.)

14 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

I don't think the Betty/Jughead pairing is dead, I'm just not buying that they're clearly endgame that is being messed with to build up to this amazing reunion filled with amazing character development. Honestly, I don't buy that for any of the characters and pairings, with regard to the decision to break up the two couples. Nice as it all sounds, as I said, I think this was done for drama's sake and nothing more, which is fine. Again, that makes it no different than most teen dramas.

Nothing I have seen of the writing on this show, including last season, has convinced me that the writers are adept at creating some beautifully constructed character development and organic drama. This was all done for the cheap and quick thrills, like every other rushed storyline. Most of it will remain shallow and surface level. There will be no amazing beautiful reconnecting of Betty and Jughead, in my opinion. It will be badly written, contrived stuff where the characters flit from one point to another to facilitate whatever contrived drama the writers want for that particular week. 

 

But see this doesn't make sense to me. Because are we really going to have a genuine exploration of friendship if said friendships get complicated by a love triangle? I can't see how we can get a genuine exploration of Veronica and Betty's friendship if mere moments after Veronica and Archie are over, Betty and Archie become a thing. Because all that's going to develop is jealousy and tensions.

And any attempts by the writers to make it seem that they are somehow hunky dory best friends despite the romantic complications between the three, would be bullshit. And that would really be a problem if they're thinking of going full steam ahead with the infamous triangle. The fact is, if the show explores the infamous Betty/Archie/Veronica triangle, that friendship dynamic is changed period and from that point onwards, it's Betty and Veronica in some weird pseudo-friendship while they alternate between the same guy. 

 

Haven't we seen Jughead's demons with his family? Frankly, at this point it seems like we've seen too much of Jughead's demons and it'd be nice if the character got to just be normal and happy for awhile without the overkill of angst. And as to the outsider to Betty and Archie's friendship, when we first met Jughead in the first season, he and Archie weren't even speaking. And as for Archie's struggle with being outsider to Betty and Jughead, we saw that with his constant wistful and woeful faces every time anyone referenced Jughead being Betty's boyfriend and Betty talked about being in love with Jughead. It was just hard to know if it was just his being upset about being an outsider to his two best friends or his always looking for the next best thing when he's with someone else. 

As I said, admittedly I may be in the minority, since from my understanding ratings seem to be increasing every week, but I feel like the show is just a clunky, over saturated mess where the writers are throwing everything and the kitchen sink, thinking that makes it interesting. This serial killer crap is shit, the relationships are being poorly handled and contrived as hell and everything is in service of the plot and contrivance. And I frankly do not see that changing. I also disagree that it will stop being dark, since again, ratings have been really good so they may not see a reason to change anything and two, they went this route after last season, clearly believing that people enjoyed the Jason murder mystery so much that this was the direction they were interested in seeing the show go in.

 

8 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Damn, the Southside Serpents really take their karaoke seriously, apparently.  Had Betty not taken over (while doing her quite problematic striptease), I thought they were going to start rioting over Archie and Veronica bailing midway.  This has to be the weirdest gang on the planet: half of the time they're hitting all the obvious biker gang cliches, the other half they do stuff that I doubt any actual biker gang would ever do.

 

Bahahaha!!!! Oh yeah! This was another moment of levity for me in this episode. That the Serpents lost their collective shit over Archie and Veronica running out mid-song. Thanks for reminding me!

4 hours ago, PeekaBoo said:

Just to clear tings out a bit, was FP just pretending to be "reformed" when he in fact, knew everything that had happened concerning TallBoy and the snake charmer?!?! And did he in fact in his little chat with jughead, kick his son out of the gang? Just need to be enlightened a bit...

There's been so many good comments! I can't believe potential barchie and triangle would cause such a stir!! Well, it should though as it is stupid and absolutely unnecessary but I can come back to that later.

 

Good question! I though FP found all of this out after he and Jughead had their post-motorcycle ride talk. But it could very well have been before, and FP was trying to take a gentle and fatherly approach to getting Jug to leave the Serpents. And then he had to resort to rejoining them to protect Jughead.

If anything, that look that Betty and Archie exchanged is for sure getting people talking! It would be funny if nothing ever came of it. Knowing these writers on this show, this season...not a chance. We can only dream! 

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, AdorkableSars said:

Bahahaha!!!! Oh yeah! This was another moment of levity for me in this episode. That the Serpents lost their collective shit over Archie and Veronica running out mid-song. Thanks for reminding me!

That was hilarious. I still love those silly moments on the show. I mean, those guys were PISSED! I was all, dudes, they weren't even that good, take it down a notch. And then we got Jail Bait doing finishing off the song while awkwardly taking off her clothes in front of her boyfriend, his dad, her mom and a bunch of karaoke loving bikers. This is what prevents me from giving up on this show. It's just so unbelievably ridiculous at the most insane times.

[CletusMusashi]

All I know is, if I ever have to join the Serpents, screw getting the shit beaten out me with brass knuckles. 

I'm gonna just show my underwear for half a song.

Edited December 9, 2017 by CletusMusashi

[rmontro]

I love it when Betty gets her freak on - as long as it's kept to a minimum.

Hate that they broke up Bughead, and I hate even more the thought of Archie and Betty getting together.  Even though, yeah, the Betty/Veronica/Archie triangle was always a thing in the comics.

I'm not a huge fan of Archie, but I don't think he was a jerk for having problems with Veronica not returning his "I love you".  From his viewpoint, she doesn't return his feelings, and he is in a one way relationship - not a good place to be.  At this point he feels like he has to protect himself, otherwise he just becomes her lapdog.  Obviously it was a mistake for him to say it in the first place.  It reminded me very much of Leonard's premature I love you from Big Bang Theory - right down to the "Really?  You love tacos/karaoke"?

Edited December 9, 2017 by rmontro

[Chas411]

Lilli Reinhart is beautiful but that pole dance was one of the most mortifying things I've seen on tv. It was so cringe. The whole Jughead/Betty thing has become a joke. So has Archie/Veronica, they're just all so serious. Maybe I'm just too old for this crap but I can't take this love stuff and Break ups seriously when they're a bunch of kids. 

 

Dont even get me started on the obnoxious monologing.

[rmontro]

9 hours ago, Chas411 said:

Lilli Reinhart is beautiful but that pole dance was one of the most mortifying things I've seen on tv. It was so cringe. The whole Jughead/Betty thing has become a joke. So has Archie/Veronica, they're just all so serious. Maybe I'm just too old for this crap but I can't take this love stuff and Break ups seriously when they're a bunch of kids. 

I thought the pole dance was funny, especially the look on Jughead's face as he watched on in horror.  It was like what is happening?

Kids can definitely be serious when it comes to relationships, they can seem life or death when you're that age.  Ever read Romeo and Juliet?

It's just so strange watching this show knowing that they're all supposed to be in high school, but you can tell just by looking at them the actors are all in their 20s.  It creates a warped sense of reality.

[Snookums]

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Damn, the Southside Serpents really take their karaoke seriously, apparently.  Had Betty not taken over (while doing her quite problematic striptease), I thought they were going to start rioting over Archie and Veronica bailing midway.  This has to be the weirdest gang on the planet: half of the time they're hitting all the obvious biker gang cliches, the other half they do stuff that I doubt any actual biker gang would ever do.

Seriously, it was like watching a prison gang riot over the finale of The Great British Bake-Off. Who gets that invested in karaoke? Most places I've been the majority of the "audience" doesn't even quit talking, let alone maintain a cathedral hush. 

[Chas411]

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Kids can definitely be serious when it comes to relationships, they can seem life or death when you're that age.  Ever read Romeo and Juliet?

I have and I enjoyed it. I don't think this show compares to it in the slightest though. At the very least I wasn't rolling my eyes throughout reading it like I am watching Roverdale at the moment.

[Mabinogia]

9 hours ago, rmontro said:

It's just so strange watching this show knowing that they're all supposed to be in high school, but you can tell just by looking at them the actors are all in their 20s.  It creates a warped sense of reality.

yeah, because it wasn't until I really thought about the fact that Betty is a 15/16 year old high school kid stripping in front of a biker gang that has a 15-16 year old girl bartending and is lead by a 15-16 year old emo kid that I realized the writers have got to be on some seriously good hallucinogens  while writing this stuff. 

[alex hoffman]

I don’t know about any of you but I never really loved Bughead. They just never seemed that great to me, especially after they became a couple. During their time as a pair, they rarely communicated, seemed to not know much about what was happening in each other’s lives, and as seen in this episode (and others) Betty desperately does thing that she shouldn’t/wouldn’t usually do to cling to their relationship.

I recognize that the idea of an Archie/Betty pairing is upsetting to some people. But I kind of like the idea of the two together. Defiantly not after they get out of such intense relationships. But after a while, I would like them to end up together. I hope/think that she would push him to care more things (we kind of saw this in the beginning of season 1). I hope/think that he would help her relax more and feel more comfortable in her own skin. He isn’t really passionate about anything and she is about a lot of things, she is very intense and uncomfortable with who she is (both of those qualities were perpetuated by her relationship with Jughead) he is relaxed and comfortable with who he is. 

Thats just my take on the ships in this show. 

[Unclejosh]

The dance was creepy but semi realistic sadly.  I know in Providence RI it is legal for 16 year olds to strip or at least was if the laws have changed within the past few years.  I hope so but kinda doubt it.  From what I remember when this was big in the news a few years back it was happening at exactly the type of bars the one in the show is.  Shady with gang presence and I would bet a lot of the girls dancing were dating the members.  Gross but I thought the scene was not that unrealistic based on the news stories that were all over this area about it.

[Mabinogia]

Unclejosh that is horrifying to me, that there is a place where 16 year old girls can legally strip. YIKES!

I did find her sadness realistic though. I find strip clubs to be one of the most depressing places on earth. 

[TwistedandBored]

I am really growing bored with the show. Also, that Betty pole dancing scene made me feel so uncomfortable. Just no.