S06.E09: Irreconcilable Differences

[WindofChange]

I couldn't place why what the newbies did bothered me so much... Then it hit me that their reaction in this episode is exactly what Laurel Lance's reaction would've been. Instead of facing their mistakes and dealing with it, they threw a tantrum and somehow made it so it was all Oliver's fault. 

Take 405 as a prime example. Laurel made terrible decision after terrible decision about resurrecting Sara, and when Sara attacked Thea and Oliver confronted Laurel about not telling the team about this, she made it Oliver's fault for not treating her as an equal when she never earned being treated as an equal in the first place. 

The newbies in 609 showed they couldn't be trusted by OTA and then got pissed when they were surveilled even though there was good reason why they were under surveillance. They demanded that trust even though they broke it and did little to earn it back and then threw a tantrum when OTA didn't give it to them. 

The newbies are veering dangerously close to Laurel Lance territory in my books which isn't a good thing. The entitlement from them is so off putting

Edited December 16, 2017 by WindofChange

[tennisgurl]

1 hour ago, legaleagle53 said:

Isn't that pretty much what Iris said at the end?

Thats exactly what she said, and I am quite bitter that she said it ;) 

[catrox14]

7 hours ago, Velocity23 said:

Didnt Dinah blurted out to Vince that Oliver is the Green Arrow? That could be seen as a betrayal also.

She absolutely did. And that is something that better come back to bite her in the ass. That's when I wondered if she was working with Vince all along and that he knew because she just said so casually. 

[Primal Slayer]

They had her say it so casually that I feel like he already knew and they just mentioned it off screen. Either way it would be useless to have it bite her in the ass since Vince's teammates already know who Green Arrow is so its not new information.

But Dinah and Curtis didn't break any trust, at least not any more then what Oliver or Diggle ever did. 

[statsgirl]

Vigilante didn't know last season that Oliver was the Green Arrow because he accused GA of never having suffered.  So it sounds like Dinah did betray him.

The only n00b I feel any sympathy for is Curtis.  Both Dinah and Rene were in worse places before they met Oliver; Dinah bitter and trying to deal with the loss of Vince and Rene also bitter, trying to vigilante alone because he had nothing else in his life, and thinking he had lost his daughter forever. In fact it took the combined efforts of Oliver nad Lance to get him to even try to get her back again, and Diggle and Oliver to give Dinah purpose.  And both Dinah and Rene betrayed Oliver, Dinah by revealing his identity to Vince and meeting with Vince, someone who had attempted to kill Oliver and his friends among other people without letting TA know, and Rene agreeing to rat him out without  taking the issue to Oliver or Diggle or Lance, all three of them who had worked hard to get the best for Rene.

Curtis isn't blameless, he did choose TA over Paul, but unlike Dinah and Rene, he wasn't broken and purposeless when Oliver found him.  He's paid the highest price and he didn't do Oliver wrong.

On 12/14/2017 at 4:04 PM, BkWurm1 said:

And he did give the newbs his trust when he told them his secret identity.  And then Evelyn betrayed him and he STILL kept trusting the newbs and now ANOTHER one betrayed him.  Oliver has his issues but this time he's being overly generous and forgiving.  In season one would Rene even still be alive? 

And now you're making me miss season one.

In the 1980s, some psychiatrists proposed a new classification for the DSM III-Rl, the self-defeating personality disorder:

Quote

A) A pervasive pattern of self-defeating behavior, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts. The person may often avoid or undermine pleasurable experiences, be drawn to situations or relationships in which they will suffer, and prevent others from helping them, as indicated by at least five of the following:

chooses people and situations that lead to disappointment, failure, or mistreatment even when better options are clearly available

rejects or renders ineffective the attempts of others to help them

following positive personal events (e.g., new achievement), responds with depression, guilt, or a behavior that produces pain (e.g., an accident)

incites angry or rejecting responses from others and then feels hurt, defeated, or humiliated (e.g., makes fun of spouse in public, provoking an angry retort, then feels devastated)

rejects opportunities for pleasure, or is reluctant to acknowledge enjoying themselves (despite having adequate social skills and the capacity for pleasure)

fails to accomplish tasks crucial to their personal objectives despite having demonstrated ability to do so, e.g., helps fellow students write papers, but is unable to write their own

is uninterested in or rejects people who consistently treat them well

engages in excessive self-sacrifice that is unsolicited by the intended recipients of the sacrifice

It was never put into the DSM because it was politically controversial because several of the actions were stereotypically socialized into women or came about as a result of abuse but if anyone should be considered for it, it's Rene.  When his wife is shot in his home, instead of concentrating on his daughter, he falls into a funk leading to Zoe being taken away from him because he failed to provide a safe home for her.  Then instead of doubling down to get her back, he gives up, drinks, and inspired by Oliver becomes a vigilante and risks his life doing it alone.  Oliver takes him in for the new team and then gives him a good job at City Hall.  But even then it takes Quentin repeatedly pushing him (and Oliver too) to try to get Zoe back.

Rene knows that Oliver has trust issues, that was clear from when he first recruited the new team, and he knows that Evelyn betrayed them and worked with Prometheus. And yet when Watson wanted him to betray Oliver, instead of talking to Diggle or Quentin much less Oliver himself, he agrees. And when Oliver gives him a second chance to work with the team to save Lance, he decides he knows better than Oliver, who has been doing this for 11 years, and goes off on his own losing Oliver's trust for good,  So self-defeating.

And that's not even mentioning that he wants to carry a gun to a hockey game.

I know they thought they redeemed Malcolm Merlyn.  But I'm not sure that Rene can be redeemed enough to be back on the team after this.

18 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Yeah, no kidding. As weird and full of danger as the characters lives generally are, you would think they would be more happy that only one person died (as tragic and heartbreaking as that was) and that the bad guys were defeated. I mean, if Iris and Barry found Felicity a bit annoying, thats fine I guess (although we know its the writers being annoying, not the characters) but I would think they would be more like "Thank God we are actually ALIVE to count these gifts we got, and that everyone who gave them to us arent all kinds of dead now!" or something. Get some perspective! Or, you know, be bitter at the Nazis who attacked the wedding in the first place. But whatever, I guess Felicity is the real villain here. And what the hell is wrong with an espresso machine anyway? Iris and Felicity practically live off of coffee, and that shits expensive. But, again, Felicity is the real villain.

It was a Flash episode. Felicity is the villain because she stepped out of 'the little woman' box and thought independently.

[johntfs]

I didn't see this episode, but after boiling down the comments what I get is:  After the crossover where everyone on all the shows was pretty damned awesome at least a little bit, most everyone on Arrow except maybe Felicity is back to being kind of a fucktard this week, right?

[WindofChange]

1 hour ago, Primal Slayer said:

But Dinah and Curtis didn't break any trust, at least not any more then what Oliver or Diggle ever did. 

Dinah was talking to Vigilante (a guy who tried to kill Oliver last year) behind their backs and used Oliver's name in front of him.

Curtis didn't break anyone's trust, no. He was the most reasonable person to be upset for being surveilled, but then again he did turn off his comms in the field and before that put tracking nanites on Felicity last year so he doesn't really have any ground to stand on.

It makes no sense why they were upset at Oliver because he was right in suspecting the newbies considering one of them did out Oliver. So their anger is misplaced.

Edited December 16, 2017 by WindofChange

[Primal Slayer]

Oliver has worked with people who have tried to kill the team multiple times and everyone had to just accept it. Using Olivers name doesnt seem like a big deal to me since there is nothing to suggest that Vince didn't already know and is he is working with people who know who Oliver is. 

They put their trust into Oliver and joined his mission, they expected some back. Oliver should've listened to Diggle.

2 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Vigilante didn't know last season that Oliver was the Green Arrow because he accused GA of never having suffered.  So it sounds like Dinah did betray him.

This isn't last year, until they play it like he didn't know before she told him, his lack of reaction just makes me believe that he already revealed to her that he knew who her teammates were.

[WindofChange]

15 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Oliver has worked with people who have tried to kill the team multiple times and everyone had to just accept it. Using Olivers name doesnt seem like a big deal to me since there is nothing to suggest that Vince didn't already know and is he is working with people who know who Oliver is. 

They put their trust into Oliver and joined his mission, they expected some back. Oliver should've listened to Diggle.

After Evelyn, Oliver has a right to be suspicious of the newbies. He has a right to be angry because this is something that could tear him away from his son, a son who he promised would he'd never leave. Oliver had every right to take every precaution because after Evelyn betrayed him, he didn't want to take any chances. I think that's fair on Oliver's part because this is his life and his family's lives hanging in the balance here. Oliver reacted the way he did because unlike previous seasons, he has something to lose now.

Rene essentially poisoned the well. So it made no sense why Dinah/Curtis were more angry at OTA than they were at Rene.

8 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

This isn't last year, until they play it like he didn't know before she told him, his lack of reaction just makes me believe that he already revealed to her that he knew who her teammates were.

The audience definitely found out that the Vigilante knew about Oliver's identity the second we saw he was teamed up with Anatoly/Cayden. But Dinah didn't know this. Unless Vigilante specifically mentioned Oliver's name she had no way of knowing it. So she essentially told Vigilante, not knowing if he knows who GA is, that Oliver is GA. (weirdly worded sentence sorry about that)

Edited December 16, 2017 by WindofChange

[Primal Slayer]

11 minutes ago, WindofChange said:

After Evelyn, Oliver has a right to be suspicious of the newbies. He has a right to be angry because this is something that could tear him away from his son, a son who he promised would he'd never leave. Oliver had every right to take every precaution because after Evelyn betrayed him, he didn't want to take any chances. I think that's fair on Oliver's part because this is his life and his family's lives hanging in the balance here. Oliver reacted the way he did because unlike previous seasons, he has something to lose now.

The audience definitely found out that the Vigilante knew about Oliver's identity the second we saw he was teamed up with Anatoly/Cayden. But Dinah didn't know this. Unless Vigilante specifically mentioned Oliver's name she had no way of knowing it. So she essentially told Vigilante, not knowing he knows who GA is, that Oliver is GA. (weirdly worded sentence sorry about that)

I don't think anyone is disputing Oliver has a right to be pissed and suspicious but the way he went about it.  I have no qualms with the way he treated Rene but I'm out there, risking my life right beside you? having your back? And you go behind mine, I don't care if Im new, I expect some level of respect, come to me about it. I can understand Dinah and Curtis' anger.  They've been around for basically a year now, Evelyn around for what? 3 months? Some type of bond should be there between Oliver and the not so new newbies by this point.

And unless we meant to believe that Dinah hasnt interacted with Vince since 6x05, until its confirmed that Vince "didn't know" before Dinah said Olivers name, my headcanon is that he already revealed that he knew and told her that he knew who everyone was. Not something I wouldn't put past these writers to glance over.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Primal Slayer

[WindofChange]

14 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

I don't think anyone is disputing Oliver has a right to be pissed and suspicious but the way he went about it.  I have no qualms with the way he treated Rene but I'm out there, risking my life right beside you? having your back? And you go behind mine, I don't care if Im new, I expect some level of respect, come to me about it. I can understand Dinah and Curtis' anger. 

And unless we meant to believe that Dinah hasnt interacted with Vince since 6x05, until its confirmed that Vince "didn't know" before Dinah said Olivers name, my headcanon is that he already revealed that he knew and told her that he knew who everyone was. Not something I wouldn't put past these writers to glance over.

The blame should've firmly been on Rene for poisoning the well, not Oliver for reacting to a piece of news that could really destroy a lot of what he's built in the past 2 years. So while they did risk their lives every day and had Oliver's back in the field, how could Oliver trust a team when one of them could be the one who betrayed him? He was blind as to who it was which is what led him to keep tabs on them equally so he could get some clarity. And while Diggle did offer a more honorable suggestion, Oliver didn't want to risk that blowing up in his face. Curtis' anger was incredibly hypocritical considering the lengths he went to, to monitor Felicity last year and Dinah's anger towards Oliver for rightfully being suspicious of her because of her meetups with Vigilante was blown out of proportion. 

I mean... like I said, unless it was stated in canon that Vince knew about Oliver, Dinah gave up valuable information without really thinking... which isn't really any better.

Edited December 16, 2017 by WindofChange

[Primal Slayer]

And how can a team trust Oliver if he doesn't trust them. Dinah has been shown to be a fairly good team player, she keeps their secrets, tries to help, and Oliver didn't have any trust in her to ask her straight up, Diggle wouldn't back her. If anything, with her it should run deeper then just Oliver as to why she quit the team. But Im team-D. 

[WindofChange]

17 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

And how can a team trust Oliver if he doesn't trust them. Dinah has been shown to be a fairly good team player, she keeps their secrets, tries to help, and Oliver didn't have any trust in her to ask her straight up, Diggle wouldn't back her. If anything, with her it should run deeper then just Oliver as to why she quit the team. But Im team-D. 

Well I know you're team Dinah that's kinda obvious lol. But Why should Oliver ask Dinah straight-up when Dinah was one of the suspects? Why is Dinah less of a suspect than Rene/Curtis? Oliver treated the 3 newbies equally in terms of surveillance after Quentin told him someone from the team outed him. But when Oliver found out that Dinah had been keeping secrets of her own and meeting a man who previously tried to kill Oliver behind his back, at that moment why should she think she has the right to be trusted when she knows someone gave Oliver up to Watson? 

Edited December 16, 2017 by WindofChange

[Jacks-Son]

4 minutes ago, WindofChange said:

But when Oliver found out that Dinah had been keeping secrets of her own and meeting a man who previously tried to kill Oliver behind his back, at that moment why should she think she has the right to be trusted when she knows someone gave Oliver up to Watson? 

Everybody on the team has kept secrets at one time or another. Diggle kept his disability a secret when it could have led to a tragedy. Felicity has kept her secrets with her hacktavist organization. Oliver kept multiple secrets.  All of them kept secrets, and as the leader of the group, Oliver should set an example. I'm not Team-D, but I thought she was an upstanding team member and sure, she didn't let the team know that the Vigilante was communicating with her. However, she didn't welcome that communication and it WAS with a man she loved in the past. Like I said before, I know I'm in the minority with this scenario, but I just think the whole situation is F'ed up and the writers screwed the pooch with this storyline. Something the writers have been doing at least once each season, unfortunately.

[WindofChange]

Just now, Jacks-Son said:

Everybody on the team has kept secrets at one time or another.

You're right, everyone has kept secrets, however, the issue is who was keeping secrets at the time when Oliver found out someone on his own team outed him to the FBI. Diggle kept a secret about his tremor, but that has nothing to do with this situation. Yeah members of the team have kept secrets, but when one person outed Oliver risking his entire life as well as the rest of the team's, then keeping secrets (like Dinah did) can be very dangerous and could lead to false accusations. 

I don't think Oliver was angry at the team for the secret keeping per se, he was more angry at whoever outed him and he wanted to get to the bottom of who it was. And when his life and the lives of his loved ones was at risk, he took every precaution necessary to find out who betrayed him.

7 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

the writers screwed the pooch with this storyline.

On the contrary, I think the writers did well enough for this storyline to cause 7 pages of discussion lol

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

 All of them kept secrets, and as the leader of the group, Oliver should set an example.

The difference this time is that it's the FBI involved. Not some crazy assassin organization or even the SCPD. The FBI is after the Green Arrow and Oliver. If they out him, the house of cards falls.  So yeah, in this situation IMO, Oliver has ALL the legs to stand on, and Dinah doesn't because she just randomly dropped Oliver's name to Vigilante.  IMO, it's the context matters here for why Oliver was right and Team!N00bs is totally wrong.

[BkWurm1]

6 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

I want to know what the Hoffmans gave Olicity and who had the idea to invite them to the wedding. I'm thinking Oliver as he seemed to like the Hoffmans and suburban life.

 

The answer turned out to be pretty easy to figure.  I searched "best crock pot of 2017" and the top of the list was the Ninja 4 in 1 cooking system!  It's a no brainer, lol.  

  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B072F6WM1B/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B072F6WM1B&linkCode=as2&tag=bestprodtag35338-20

 

1 hour ago, Primal Slayer said:

And unless we meant to believe that Dinah hasnt interacted with Vince since 6x05, until its confirmed that Vince "didn't know" before Dinah said Olivers name, my headcanon is that he already revealed that he knew and told her that he knew who everyone was. Not something I wouldn't put past these writers to glance over.

3

I can believe that the writers flubbed the part where Dinah would have already found out that Vince knew Oliver was GA but I still think that letting him go was a huge deal by itself which she did AGAIN when she met with him even if she also told him to stop contacting her.  She still just let him walk away.  She knew how dangerous he was to the city and to the team but she's putting her personal feelings ahead of the team.  Why should Oliver implicitly trust her with that shoved in his face even after it was revealed she wasn't the FBI's mole?

1 hour ago, Primal Slayer said:

And how can a team trust Oliver if he doesn't trust them. Dinah has been shown to be a fairly good team player, she keeps their secrets, tries to help, and Oliver didn't have any trust in her to ask her straight up, Diggle wouldn't back her. If anything, with her it should run deeper then just Oliver as to why she quit the team. But Im team-D. 

2

Dinah has shown a willingness to keep individual secrets but has IMO shown NOT to be a team player.  I think she caused more stress and harm to Lance by insisting and "helping" him keep the secret about shooting BS.  Dinah assumed the team wouldn't understand and would judge him.  That's not trusting the team. 

She then badgered Diggle until he told her his secret.  If she had such deep concerns and he wasn't opening up to her, she should have shared them with the team and maybe others who were closer could have gotten him to open up sooner, but instead she just kept secretly harping on it  until he did tell her and then she hoarded the secret  and didn't trust the rest of the team by insisting Diggle come clean as opposed to letting him just be accountable to her, setting herself up as the only opinion that mattered. 

And when Oliver was first jailed, she went to him, ready to break him out without ever having discussed any of it with the rest of the team, she just rushed in, ready this time to be HIS secret keeper but once again, not including the team or the people that knew him best or were closest to him.  In fact, her eagerness to break him out could have been something that Oliver looked back as a ploy or a cheap way out of her guilt.  

And now the person she's showing most loyalty to is Vince, the current person she is playing secret keeper for.  In the field she believes in chain of command, but everywhere else she puts her current secret above all.

Like Oliver said, he had no reason to trust her with proof of her current lack of good faith in the team and him proved just that evening.  

 

Long term, it is important for everyone to trust everyone or the whole thing falls apart but Oliver knowing for a fact that 1 of 3 of the newbs couldn't be trusted is not the same as just not trusting them.  He trusted ALL of them until hit in the face with a horrible truth that one of them HAD betrayed him.  At that point, he accepted that any one of the new recruits could be the mole and looked equally at them all. Not because he wanted to or previously lacked faith, but because he had to solve something that endangered them all. 

It's IMO illogical for the newbs to think he could ever trust them more than either Diggle or his wife.  And that's what they really got their knickers in a twist over.  Of course, he trusted his wife and his time-tested brother in arms above them.  Even Lance knew he could spill the news in front of Felicity, so should the Noobs be equally pissed at him for assuming Felicity wasn't guilty?  It's absurd to suggest Oliver include them on the same level.    

Edited December 16, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Mellowyellow]

3 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

The answer turned out to be pretty easy to figure.  I searched "best crock pot of 2017" and the top of the list was the Ninja 4 in 1 cooking system!  It's a no brainer, lol.  

  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B072F6WM1B/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B072F6WM1B&linkCode=as2&tag=bestprodtag35338-20

 

Oliver strikes me as one of those people who make ridiculous things in crock pots that should not be made in crock pots just for the sake of proving that he can!

[KenyaJ]

6 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

The answer turned out to be pretty easy to figure.  I searched "best crock pot of 2017" and the top of the list was the Ninja 4 in 1 cooking system!  It's a no brainer, lol.  

  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B072F6WM1B/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B072F6WM1B&linkCode=as2&tag=bestprodtag35338-20

LOL. She told them in 414 that they should add a slow cooker to their wedding registry.

[insomniadreams88]

7 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

It's IMO illogical for the newbs to think he could ever trust them more than either Diggle or his wife.  And that's what they really got their knickers in a twist over.  Of course, he trusted his wife and his time-tested brother in arms above them.  Even Lance knew he could spill the news in front of Felicity, so should the Noobs be equally pissed at him for assuming Felicity wasn't guilty?  It's absurd to suggest Oliver include them on the same level.    

And this was Curtis’ issue, since he brought up the difference between the newbies and OTA when the newbies talked, so that set it up for him to have a problem no matter how Oliver went about finding the traitor - confrontation or surveillance. 

[DeadZeus]

https://youtu.be/vUMfaFK7k7s?t=150

Like srsly, This is almost a complete repeat of last season.. (just like Oliver losing conviction in being GA returns every season.. YAAWN)

They really hammer it in that OTA is in the wrong by not trusting these loose cannons that tbh arent more special than regular street thugs... It's just so dumb how they feel violated in their trust by OTA even though multiple of them are legit traitors.

Really wish the writers would stop demonising OTA.

[way2interested]

16 minutes ago, DeadZeus said:

They really hammer it in that OTA is in the wrong by not trusting these loose cannons

Kind of stated before in the thread, but they didn't really put OTA in the wrong. If they they were in the wrong, then the newbies would have been revealed to have done nothing or would have immediately apologized and then OTA would have randomly mistrusted them again. The issue here is more of that they did distrust them but that the newbies also did stuff that breaks that trust. It's a standstill.

[leopardprint]

3 hours ago, KenyaJ said:

LOL. She told them in 414 that they should add a slow cooker to their wedding registry.

As a busy (formerly) single father, Mayor, and vigilante, Oliver should get on the Instant Pot bandwagon. 

[JJ928]

11 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

And how can a team trust Oliver if he doesn't trust them. Dinah has been shown to be a fairly good team player, she keeps their secrets, tries to help, and Oliver didn't have any trust in her to ask her straight up, Diggle wouldn't back her. If anything, with her it should run deeper then just Oliver as to why she quit the team. But Im team-D. 

I have to disagree. A team player would give Oliver and the team a heads up about Vince knowing their identities. That is a big deal.  Dinah has already been caught lying/covering things up twice in 6 months (show time). This is someone still new, not someone they’ve known like Thea, Roy, & Laurel, people they knew they could trust without a doubt. Dinah hasn’t earned that level of trust and continues to do things that proves she doesn’t deserve it.

 

Quote

And unless we meant to believe that Dinah hasnt interacted with Vince since 6x05, until its confirmed that Vince "didn't know" before Dinah said Olivers name, my headcanon is that he already revealed that he knew and told her that he knew who everyone was. Not something I wouldn't put past these writers to glance over.

This makes it worse imo. It’s one thing to accidentally blab, which is still Bs, it’s another to keep that hidden for months, especially while Oliver is under investigation. That would make her even less trustworthy to me. Again, I know it’s not a fair comparison but Laurel (I use her since this is her replacement) would never do something like that. It’s why she did have their trust. 

Edited December 16, 2017 by JJ928

[Hiveminder]

36 minutes ago, JJ928 said:

I have to disagree. A team player would give Oliver and the team a heads up about Vince knowing their identities. That is a big deal.  Dinah has already been caught lying/covering things up twice in 6 months (show time). This is someone still new, not someone they’ve known like Thea, Roy, & Laurel, people they knew they could trust without a doubt. Dinah hasn’t earned that level of trust and continues to do things that proves she doesn’t deserve it.

 

This makes it worse imo. It’s one thing to accidentally blab, which is still Bs, it’s another to keep that hidden for months, especially while Oliver is under investigation. That would make her even less trustworthy to me. Again, I know it’s not a fair comparison but Laurel (I use her since this is her replacement) would never do something like that. It’s why she did have their trust. 

I agree with this. We don’t know yet if Dinah told Vince Oliver is GA, accidentally or otherwise, or if he only knows because he’s on Team Evil. I doubt they’ll ever tell us. We do know that she knows that Vince knows who he is, and she hasn’t told Oliver that. Even know that her secret is out. That is something that Oliver needs to know, and there is no excuse for not giving him a heads up. 

I had hopes that Dinah would at least be a better BC than Laurel even if she couldn’t be nearly as good as Sara, but turns out she’s worse. 

Edited December 16, 2017 by Hiveminder

[leopardprint]

1 hour ago, Hiveminder said:

I agree with this. We don’t know yet if Dinah told Vince Oliver is GA, accidentally or otherwise, or if he only knows because he’s on Team Evil. I doubt they’ll ever tell us. We do know that she knows that Vince knows who he is, and she hasn’t told Oliver that. Even know that her secret is out. That is something that Oliver needs to know, and there is no excuse for not giving him a heads up. 

I had hopes that Dinah would at least be a better BC than Laurel even if she couldn’t be nearly as good as Sara, but turns out she’s worse. 

Did everyone on the team forget that Vigilante tried to assassinate Oliver? Or did I miss them bringing it up? Because that is kind of a big deal, at least to me. 

[catrox14]

31 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

Did everyone on the team forget that Vigilante tried to assassinate Oliver? Or did I miss them bringing it up? Because that is kind of a big deal, at least to me. 

Right? That's why I keep circling back to the idea that there is way more to this than meets the eye with Vince and Dinah. I just can't get over her saying his name so dang casually.  It doesn't make sense unless Dinah knew that Vince already knew that Oliver is the GA or that's the moment she told him. And for me either way, it's a betrayal of the character to Oliver, whether Oliver knows it or not. It speaks to her motives and her being so put out that they spied on her is ridiculous. Much less for her to try and turn it around him that Oliver can't be trusted. Pfft.  Shut up, Dinah.

ETA:  Unless the swerve is that the whole team already knew that the FBI tried to turn Ren and it's a whole big fakeout for the benefit of Cayden James, who maybe they already knew had been spying on them. Not sure how much I believe in my own theory.

Edited December 16, 2017 by catrox14

[Hiveminder]

21 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

ETA:  Unless the swerve is that the whole team already knew that the FBI tried to turn Ren and it's a whole big fakeout for the benefit of Cayden James, who maybe they already knew had been spying on them. Not sure how much I believe in my own theory.

Unfortunately, I don’t think it is. If they were faking it for CJ, they would have been faking the confrontations in the bunker, meaning they had reason to believe that he knew what was going on in the bunker somehow. If they knew that then I don’t think they would have talked about sabotaging the whatsit CJ had them steel there thereby putting Quentin in more danger. 

[leopardprint]

28 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Right? That's why I keep circling back to the idea that there is way more to this than meets the eye with Vince and Dinah.

But has Dinah even brought it up to Vincent? (I didn't watch the Slade episodes) I don't remember if the team knew he was the sniper but she was in the limo when he attacked? This is even worse than their usual poor planning.

Vigilante as of 610 knows Oliver is GA, but he tried to kill Oliver in both his identities. 

Are they going to try and redeem Vigilante and Black Siren in addition to Slade? 

Edited December 16, 2017 by leopardprint

[Midnight Lullaby]

There’s also to say that Felicity and Diggle helped Oliver for YEARS. Last season, after four years of putting her life on the line for the team Felicity was in a bad place and decided to go after Helix on her own. Same with Diggle that after five years he kept a secret because he was in a bad place. It isn’t the same of Dinah who has been on the team not even a year and has spent half of it keeping secrets (Lance, now Vince) or Rene who had a reckless attitude that was dangerous for the team last year and in this mission again, rattled twice about Oliver and told Oliver about Diggle. Trust should be earned and I think after years Felicity and Diggle earned Oliver’s trust, while Dinah and Rene, because of their behavior, didn’t. Oliver has trust issues but there’s also a line and beyond that trust becomes stupidity imo. Curtis instead did nothing wrong but my impression is that he and Oliver don’t click, but it’s just a feeling not based on particular scenes..

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

But has Dinah even brought it up to Vincent?

It's all confusing TBH. From the transcript. They were talking about the people she's killed and her apparent new found naivete, and then she drops in Oliver's name. There is a disconnect in the writing or it's foreshadowing something else, IMO.

 

Quote

You have to stop contacting me. I've done all I'm willing to do for you.

I'm not here to ask for a favor. Then what do you want? I miss you, D. That dress reminds me of the one you wore for the Guzman Op.

Don't do that. Don't try to dip me in nostalgia. I don't even know who you are anymore, Vince. The man I knew would never, could never kill an innocent person. The people I've killed weren't innocent.

Oh, no? Well, what about that cop you accidentally shot last month?

- Collateral damage. -

What? Are you trying to tell me that there hasn't been any in the war the Green Arrow's fighting?

No. No. There hasn't.

Sounds like I'm not the only one who's changed. The Dinah Drake I knew was never this naive.

Oliver brought me back from a very dark, very bad place. He stopped me from becoming you.

The only difference between him and me is that I don't lie to myself about what I'm doing.

Look. I may not be a Saint, but I do know this. I care about you. I always have and always will. Don't contact me.

Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=arrow&episode=s06e09

[Featherhat]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

Oliver brought me back from a very dark, very bad place. He stopped me from becoming you.

Did we ever see this on screen last season? I admit I only skim watched a few of them but whilst DD's had her issues I don't think she was in a position that needed morally saving by Oliver or even Dig, who she's shared a lot more scenes with. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

16 hours ago, johntfs said:

I didn't see this episode, but after boiling down the comments what I get is:  After the crossover where everyone on all the shows was pretty damned awesome at least a little bit, most everyone on Arrow except maybe Felicity is back to being kind of a fucktard this week, right?

Nope, just the whiny newbies. Oliver, surprisingly, is on the right side of the arguments this time ... IMO. 

2 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

Did we ever see this on screen last season? I admit I only skim watched a few of them but whilst DD's had her issues I don't think she was in a position that needed morally saving by Oliver or even Dig, who she's shared a lot more scenes with. 

I don't know if tossing bad guys out the window, smirking and badly delivering cheesy lines can be considered dark. She didn't come across as needing "saving" to me.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Featherhat said:

Did we ever see this on screen last season? I admit I only skim watched a few of them but whilst DD's had her issues I don't think she was in a position that needed morally saving by Oliver or even Dig, who she's shared a lot more scenes with. 

Oliver was helping her find her humanity again when she first showed up as Tina Boland. I forget all the details.

[way2interested]

Just now, Featherhat said:

Did we ever see this on screen last season? I admit I only skim watched a few of them but whilst DD's had her issues I don't think she was in a position that needed morally saving by Oliver or even Dig, who she's shared a lot more scenes with. 

I didn't rewatch 511 except for Felicity and Rory's scenes, but in that episode she was on a one-woman rampage for revenge and didn't care who she got rid of or who got in her way and then Oliver and the team came in to offer her another outlet for her anger/desire for justice/etc., so yeah I would say so.

[Featherhat]

2 minutes ago, way2interested said:

I didn't rewatch 511 except for Felicity and Rory's scenes, but in that episode she was on a one-woman rampage for revenge and didn't care who she got rid of or who got in her way and then Oliver and the team came in to offer her another outlet for her anger/desire for justice/etc., so yeah I would say so.

Fair enough, I swear all I remember from that episode is the brief Singh cameo and the unsurprising revelation that Tina was Dinah, I will have to check it out again. 

[tennisgurl]

Really, its too bad that they decided to go this way with the newbies, because I actually was starting to like them more (mostly Dinah and Rene) and actually thought that having a team again was good for Oliver, and that Oliver was good for them. Rene and Dinah both grew and became better people thanks to OTA, and it was nice to see. They were already running around doing their vigilante thing, but Oliver gave them a purpose and a life outside of beating the crap out of people, the way Diggle and Felecity did for him (to a lesser extent, of course) back in the day.* And Oliver got to show his leadership skills and how much he has grown since his loner days. It wasn't my favorite thing, and I always wanted more of the team being integrated with each other (and not just Curtis/Felicity and Dinah/Dig), OTA is always my jam,  and the newbies were often superfluous, but I could appreciate them more this season. Then all of THIS happens, and I`m back to eye rolling at them again. Oliver should have been upfront with them, its true. BUT, he had reason not to just ask them what was going on (they would probably lie, and he had no clue how long this betrayal had been going on, or if they had been on the FBIs side since day one) and he listened to what was upsetting them, and was willing to move on. It was the newbies who didn't listen to him in the field, and them stormed off in a huff over something that CURTIS ALREADY DID TO FELICITY! I know I mentioned this earlier, it it bares repeating. People in this franchise forgive their friends and teammates for worst stuff than this ALL THE TIME! Like, the newbies being pissed off at OTA for spying on them to find out who the spy is seems adorable next to shit the other characters have done that everyone got over. Oh, Oliver tapped your phone? Call me when Oliver starts working with your worst enemy behind your back or sells you out to time pirates, assholes. Oh, and its pretty hard to feel so sad for these guys and their hurt feelings when pretty much every other show in this franchise had its characters dealing with horrific violence, grief, death, and false imprisonment. Yeah, you guys TOTALLY have it bad. Oy. 

*Honestly, I still have no idea why Curtis wanted to become a vigalante, instead of just an ally and tech guy. Most people who get into this business do it because of a tragic past, seeking redeption, great power comes great reponsibility, living up to a legacy or duty, or just have a desire to help people. Why does Curtis want to throw away his life and marriage to do a dangerous job where he could be hurt or killed on any given day? I still dont get it, and if we have to have him here, could we at least know WHY we have him?  

[Delphi]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Call me when Oliver starts working with your worst enemy behind your back or sells you out to time pirates, assholes. Oh, and its pretty hard to feel so sad for these guys and their hurt feelings when pretty much every other show in this franchise had its characters dealing with horrific violence, grief, death, and false imprisonment.

More like call me when Oliver erases your daughter's very existence off the face of the planet.  If Dig can forgive Barry then I think the new team can grow the fuck up. 

Edited December 16, 2017 by Delphi

[statsgirl]

..

On 12/16/2017 at 0:21 AM, Primal Slayer said:

I don't think anyone is disputing Oliver has a right to be pissed and suspicious but the way he went about it.  I have no qualms with the way he treated Rene but I'm out there, risking my life right beside you? having your back? And you go behind mine, I don't care if Im new, I expect some level of respect, come to me about it. I can understand Dinah and Curtis' anger.  They've been around for basically a year now, Evelyn around for what? 3 months? Some type of bond should be there between Oliver and the not so new newbies by this point.

And unless we meant to believe that Dinah hasnt interacted with Vince since 6x05, until its confirmed that Vince "didn't know" before Dinah said Olivers name, my headcanon is that he already revealed that he knew and told her that he knew who everyone was. Not something I wouldn't put past these writers to glance over.

Oliver should have confronted them first as Diggle wanted but he's not perfect.

But speaking about risking ones life -- Oliver was out there risking his life right beside Rene, and Rene was stabbing him in the back.  In fact, Rene was also giving beautiful wedding speeches while stabbing both Oliver and Felicity.  And he was trading William's father in so that he could have his own daughter with him.  Right now, short of actively working with Team Evil, it doesn't get lower than what Rene did.

Dinah was doing something similar too. Either she told Vince that Oliver, a man Vince had tried to kill before when he didn't know who he was, was the Green Arrow, or Vince found out from Team Evil and didn't tell Dinah he was working with them.  Either was a betrayal not only of Oliver but of every other member on the team.  As was not telling them who the Vigilante was and that she was still in communication with him.

On 12/16/2017 at 1:12 AM, Jacks-Son said:

Everybody on the team has kept secrets at one time or another. Diggle kept his disability a secret when it could have led to a tragedy. Felicity has kept her secrets with her hacktavist organization. Oliver kept multiple secrets.  All of them kept secrets, and as the leader of the group, Oliver should set an example. I'm not Team-D, but I thought she was an upstanding team member and sure, she didn't let the team know that the Vigilante was communicating with her. However, she didn't welcome that communication and it WAS with a man she loved in the past. Like I said before, I know I'm in the minority with this scenario, but I just think the whole situation is F'ed up and the writers screwed the pooch with this storyline. Something the writers have been doing at least once each season, unfortunately.

Everyone has kept secrets but not all secrets are equal.

Since we're talking team players, let's put it on a scale of danger to other team members.  Diggle's was pretty high on that scale since he was keeping secret that he wasn't functioning at best physical capacity and so other members could have got hurt.  Felicity's on the other hand was low on the scale because her secrets were to keep her fellow members safe, from when she was working behind Oliver's back in the Summer of Love between seasons 3 and 4 to season 5 when she got involved with Helix to save Diggle, and later to save a kidnapped Susan and then Oliver.

Oliver's secrets were also to protect other people whether it was going undercover in the League or disbanding the team and working with the Bratva against Prometheus.

Dinah's secret of knowing and communicating with Vince is potentially dangerous to Team Arrow because as she said, he's a loose canon.  Rene's secret betrayal of Oliver was the most dangerous of all because having given up Oliver, who's to say he wouldn't also give up Diggle or Felicity if that's the price Watson wanted?  Or Curtis and Dinah?  If he's willing to give up Oliver who brought him back from a dark place and worked with him  to get his daughter back, who wouldn't he give up?

On 12/16/2017 at 2:08 AM, BkWurm1 said:

I can believe that the writers flubbed the part where Dinah would have already found out that Vince knew Oliver was GA but I still think that letting him go was a huge deal by itself which she did AGAIN when she met with him even if she also told him to stop contacting her.  She still just let him walk away.  She knew how dangerous he was to the city and to the team but she's putting her personal feelings ahead of the team.  Why should Oliver implicitly trust her with that shoved in his face even after it was revealed she wasn't the FBI's mole?

Like Oliver said, he had no reason to trust her with proof of her current lack of good faith in the team and him proved just that evening.  

Long term, it is important for everyone to trust everyone or the whole thing falls apart but Oliver knowing for a fact that 1 of 3 of the newbs couldn't be trusted is not the same as just not trusting them.  He trusted ALL of them until hit in the face with a horrible truth that one of them HAD betrayed him.  At that point, he accepted that any one of the new recruits could be the mole and looked equally at them all. Not because he wanted to or previously lacked faith, but because he had to solve something that endangered them all. 

It's IMO illogical for the newbs to think he could ever trust them more than either Diggle or his wife.  And that's what they really got their knickers in a twist over.  Of course, he trusted his wife and his time-tested brother in arms above them.  Even Lance knew he could spill the news in front of Felicity, so should the Noobs be equally pissed at him for assuming Felicity wasn't guilty?  It's absurd to suggest Oliver include them on the same level.   

Oliver recruited five new members for his team, and the only ones who didn't betray him in some way are Curtis and Rory.  He didn't survive five years in hell and another five as a vigilante by being stupid.  Rene and Dinah haven't a leg to stand on.

Edited December 19, 2017 by statsgirl

[bijoux]

To be fair, Dinah actually did immediately tell the team that Vince was Vigilante. Which I found surprising and refreshing.

[Hiveminder]

16 hours ago, bijoux said:

To be fair, Dinah actually did immediately tell the team that Vince was Vigilante. Which I found surprising and refreshing.

Sadly, she then screwed it up by letting him go and not telling them that Vince knew Oliver is GA. 

[statsgirl]

She also met with Vince behind the team's back and wasn't going to tell them.

If she had come back from that meeting with Vince and said "Hey guys, Vince just called me to talk about Oliver being the Green Arrow and he wants me to team up with him and I turned him down" Oliver might have continued trusting her.

[Chaser]

Dinah name dropping Oliver to Vincent reminded me of Laurel telling Ted Cardboard she used to date the Arrow. 

[bijoux]

6 hours ago, Hiveminder said:

Sadly, she then screwed it up by letting him go and not telling them that Vince knew Oliver is GA. 

Oh, I’m not excusing her at all. She screwed up big time. And then angered me even more by getting huffy and refusing to admit that she did. I simply thought she did enough stupid stuff on her own that there was no need to add to it.

[Hook75]

GO AWAY , Black Siren. I can't watch the show when KC is still in it. WHY is she still here?

Same goes for Curtis- GO AWAY!

Rory was my fave newbie.

Edited December 26, 2017 by Hook75

[EmilyBettFan]

Rene is so loose with info. Also Oliver saved his life when Rene fell off the bridge and also tried to help get his daughter back. Rene is a mess.

[catrox14]

Rene's motivations don't make a lot of sense to me. Why he wouldn't have gone to Oliver or even Lance is weird givent hat Lance helped with his daughter. I almost wonder if Rene is covering for another member of nopeTA. It's all very strange IMO

[BkWurm1]

I don't think Rene's a decoy for someone else ratting Oliver out.  I think he's just that weak and scared that when he got cornered by the FBI he probably just flipped then and there, spilling his guts.  

[insomniadreams88]

Yeah, I'd be surprised if Rene's covering for Dinah or Curtis. I think that Rene just ended up in the perfect position for the FBI to take advantage of his situation with Zoe. In 6x01, didn't Oliver get help from the new DA for another hearing for Rene? Isn't the new DA the one who's working with the FBI and alerted Jean about having a witness? They didn't even really need to do any digging - all the information was right there for them to use to get Rene to agree to testify. 

[Hook75]

Wait, was I supposed to be upset by the ending and be like "oh no"? LOL.

Because I thought it was a FANTASTIC ending....OTA is back, annoying newbies are gone, Thea is back, Oliver is happy and married, Oliver and Digg's bromance is back on. What not to like?

Now kill BC and the show will be as wonderful as season 1-2 were.