S13.E08: The Scorpion and The Frog

[ahrtee]

8 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

As far as Sam trying to blow out the flames, that's the sort of thing I would expect either the Director or the actor(s) to say, 'wait a minute, this is dumb,' and make some changes.  As several have pointed out, it wouldn't have been hard to get the same result in a much more rational manner.  I hate seeing actors hit with the supid stick.

I have a (sinking) feeling that everything was a part of the writer's (or director's) intent to do a light, comic-ish episode.  Thus, Dean's (to me OTT) fear of putting his hand in the lion's mouth, the Indiana Jones homage with the booby-trapped floor, the "could-be slapstick" of sliding the badguy along the floor, and the silliness of Sam flapping his hands uselessly at the burning paper were all intended to be comedy.  The problem for me is that the script as written could be taken as serious; the direction/acting was not.  And the music (as I said before) was intentionally light.  (Actually, the only place the music really annoyed me was when they were walking through the dark woods looking for the vault, even before the magic hand took over.  There was nothing on screen up to that point that would warrant light bouncy music to me.)

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

 I didn't think it needed any explanation at all for a few reasons. 

-- Dean's deal was the same as all the others in the episode so the theme seemed pretty relevant and clear to me anyway from the jump. It never crossed my mind that Sam's would be relevant because Sam wasn't condemned to Hell. He volunteered twice to go to Hell. He was never even partially turned into a demon like Dean had to have been along the way as well. Just completely different circumstances making the needs different.

-- If my theory is correct that something more is coming a la Werther Box, then Meredith isn't going to spoil a potential plot point. And IMO, the absence of the mention isn't an oversight or a snub but intentional for later.

-If Davy Perez saying that the writers gave Sam the Ramiel kill because it was evening out the kill stuff the maybe this was trying to give Dean's Hell time a little more relevance and look see.

Or maybe it was just in there to get my fellow Dean fans to stop bitching about it being so minimized in the narrative. So they made it a plot point for one episode and that could be the end of it. But I HOPE THAT IS NOT all there will be to it's relevance.

Honestly when I watched the episode Bart said the lock needed the blood men who had been to hell.  I just figured it could have been either one of the brothers.  Dean was chosen because Jensen is better a comedy and a lot of comedic moments were ahead.  I just don't give these writers that much credit to be weaving intricate tales that tie our hero's to the riches of their lives over 13 seasons.

[Icarus]

It really makes me sad to say this but I did find Jensen's (or possibly the Director's choice??) acting with the “I am frightened to put my hand in this” and even the hand/arm pointing bit too OTT for me. I think Jensen is an absolutely brilliant actor (and this should probably be in the unpopular opinion area, better than Jared some of the time) but I am not feeling the comedy vibe that he is acting out at the moment. I normally (mentioned before by me!) watch the previous episode before watching the new one, that is providing it did not deserve an immediate rewatch IMO and I had to fast forward lots of the previous weeks episode, although I did think Michael was a good villian. I also think Mark Pelligreno is a very good actor, but I don't like how he is being written now i.e. amusing, and almost “cute” he is LUCIFER for fucks sake no way should he get a redemption arc but hey ho here we might go. Anyway back to this latest episode, I enjoyed it mostly and will not have to FF too much on rewatch!! I still hate the Sam is the clever one and Dean the pie eater but in terms of the whole episode I can cope with how that scene played out, in terms of how much I hate how the writers mess with characterisation I can just about give a pass on this one (not that I have much choice!!!).

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Honestly when I watched the episode Bart said the lock needed the blood men who had been to hell.  I just figured it could have been either one of the brothers.  Dean was chosen because Jensen is better a comedy and a lot of comedic moments were ahead.  I just don't give these writers that much credit to be weaving intricate tales that tie our hero's to the riches of their lives over 13 seasons.

Actually Bart said he needed the blood of a man who went to hell and returned. At first I wondered why Dean specifically was pointed to, but once it was revealed the guy had also made a deal, been drug to hell and then released from his deal, it made sense to me. Unnecessarily overly-complicated and not very well explained, but I think it was purposeful that it was Dean's blood they needed and not just for the comic relief. TBH, I think the comic relief parts were probably an acting choice by Jensen more than anything.

[Casseiopeia]

18 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Actually Bart said he needed the blood of a man who went to hell and returned. At first I wondered why Dean specifically was pointed to, but once it was revealed the guy had also made a deal, been drug to hell and then released from his deal, it made sense to me. Unnecessarily overly-complicated and not very well explained, but I think it was purposeful that it was Dean's blood they needed and not just for the comic relief. TBH, I think the comic relief parts were probably an acting choice by Jensen more than anything.

My impression when I watched the episode was that it could have been either brother, but you are right  the intent of the writer was that Dean had made a deal, been to hell and came back.  

[catrox14]

32 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Honestly when I watched the episode Bart said the lock needed the blood men who had been to hell.  I just figured it could have been either one of the brothers.  Dean was chosen because Jensen is better a comedy and a lot of comedic moments were ahead.  I just don't give these writers that much credit to be weaving intricate tales that tie our hero's to the riches of their lives over 13 seasons

As much as I bash the writers, I think they do actually set up some stuff for later payoff or at least put it on the back burner if they want to trot it out later.

Maybe she did write that scene with Jensen in mind for the comedy but she could have written any number of reasons for Dean to be the person to do that didn't involve Dean's Hell time at all. Maybe even Dean having been an actual demon would be the reason. IMO there is a purpose to a man whose been to Hell and got out that is not only for this episode.

[BoxManLocke]

1 hour ago, Icarus said:

It really makes me sad to say this but I did find Jensen's (or possibly the Director's choice??) acting with the “I am frightened to put my hand in this” and even the hand/arm pointing bit too OTT for me.

 

It would've been so much more interesting if the episode had kept focus on Dean and the fact that a man that went to hell and back was needed for the job. There could've been real tension and emotion there if they had used that as the main theme of the ep. Instead they went the easy route with over the top comedy that messes with the tone for half the episode.

 

They did the exact same thing in the episode last year where Dean was losing his memory. Kept it mostly comical and missed a huge opportunity. Standalone eps don't need to be light, they need to be memorable, and that last one just wasn't.

[Casseiopeia]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

As much as I bash the writers, I think they do actually set up some stuff for later payoff or at least put it on the back burner if they want to trot it out later.

Maybe she did write that scene with Jensen in mind for the comedy but she could have written any number of reasons for Dean to be the person to do that didn't involve Dean's Hell time at all. Maybe even Dean having been an actual demon would be the reason. IMO there is a purpose to a man whose been to Hell and got out that is not only for this episode.

I hope you are right.  That would actually tie the season to the brothers in a meaningful way.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Well, as usual, I haven't read the comments first.  At least I'm not so late this week! ?  I did watch on Thursday night, but all I could really think afterward was that there was some face-paced action and wonky musical notes, like when Dean and Co. were traipsing across the property trying to find the vault, and I wasn't quite sure what to make of it.  So I thought I'd watch again and really try to embrace the weird.  

I really did try.  But when Sam and Dean were going to meet Bart at the diner, the street was just way too busy to be anywhere near Lebanon, Kansas, or even within a short driving distance.  Although "Smile Diner" does sound like one that would be nearby.  I liked the name too.   

Physically, Bart favored Benny a little, imo.

It was nice to see Dean's Hell time acknowledged, but the reference was too clunky and ill conceived, imo.  Does Sam's time in the cage not make him count as a man 'who's been to Hell and back'?  Personally, I would think it would.  Or how bout the time Sam went to Hell to get Bobby out (despite how many fans feel about that particular episode, it still counts.)?  I think it should have called for a 'man who's been dragged to Hell' or 'taken by Hellhounds' - and then that would have only applied to Dean.  

I know he's a demon - and I did like Bart in a way anyway - but it bothers me on a visceral level that Sam was so willing to double cross him.  This is never a good thing when Sam is going against his normal code of conduct - confirmed by the the first glimpse we see of Luther in action, he exorcises a demon, so obviously he wasn't all evil.  

John Dortmunder?  Where did they get that name?

You know, Luther probably had it timed how long it should take to get from the gate to the house, so stopping a long the way was guaranteed to tip  him off.  

Seriously, I would not trust any soda purchased off of eBay.  Not to mention is was probably lukewarm coming out of her bag.  Ick.

Aw - Sam was getting his Harry Potter geek on.  I love it when he does that.  :)

Personally, I'm disappointed that neither of them even tried to look in the trunk after the got it out of the vault.  I mean, I would want to know exactly what the new cross-roads demon wanted so badly before I just handed it over.  I guess I'm just suspicious of evil supernatural creatures like that.  I'd think Sam and Dean would want to know the same, since they knew it came with a price.   And then yeah, okay, Sam "the smart one" first doesn't grab the spell from Bart's hand as soon as he starts to go up in flames and then doesn't use those gigantic feet of his to stomp out the flames.  (One, maybe two stomps, tops.)  That was an obvious bit of plot induced stupid.  Couldn't make finding Jack too easy, I guess.  

Some uncomfortable shades of Charlie in this episode too.  First the 'sorry Charlie' comment by Alice.  I managed to ignore that, cause I thought 'no way', and then the bus station scene at the end happened.  Maybe the writers think it's been long enough, but I'm not sure it has.  I'm not even that big a fan of Charlie, and at least Alice wasn't as big a Mary Sue as Charlie eventually became, but I still don't want to see another character that Dean comes to care about get killed off.  

Really nice scene between the guys at  the end to close.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 12/1/2017 at 5:48 AM, Wayward Son said:

- Alice should have died at the end of this episode. There was a similar case back in Beyond the Mat, which coincidentally I rewatched yesterday. Gunnar agreed to kill others in exchange for him being safe from going to hell. However, as soon as the demon he made the deal with was killed the second deal was nullified and the hell hounds instantly arrived. This should have been the case here. Unless they are planning to say that deals will no longer exist. 

Hm...good catch.  I hadn't thought of this!  Maybe the Hellhounds came for her after she left Sam and Dean?

On 12/1/2017 at 11:19 AM, Katy M said:

Maybe the paper was really old and Sam was afraid that by stepping on it, it would ruin it?

LOL!  Yeah, like it burning wouldn't ruin it?  ;)

[ahrtee]

58 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

John Dortmunder?  Where did they get that name?

Donald Westlake is the King of the Comic Caper Novel and JOHN ARCHIBALD DORTMUNDER, his prize creation, is the savvy professional thief whose plans always, for some strange reason, go spectacularly and hilariously awry.  (from The Thrilling Detective website: http://www.thrillingdetective.com/dortmunder.html )

[Lemuria]

I recommend "Hot Rock," based on one of Westlake's Dortmunder novels, starring a stunning Robert Redford and a whole bunch of great comic actors, like Zero Mostel, George Segal, Paul Sand. Very enjoyable film. 

[Emma9]

On 11/30/2017 at 9:21 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

I kept trying to place the actor and couldn't. Thank heavens for IMDb - he was the cop in Medium.

Wow, I didn't peg that at all. I miss that show. (And it would have actually made it rather ironic if Bart had become the new Crowley, because for a long time, my mental designation for Mark Sheppard was the first role I ever saw him in - 'that creepy doctor from Medium'.)

 

On 12/1/2017 at 11:55 AM, Katy M said:

They should have just had the demon clutch the paper to his fiery self out of vengeance.  I would have done it if I were him and I'm not even a demon.

Very good point, especially since he'd just made a point of saying he'd have enough time to do something vindictive before he burned if they double-crossed him.

[DittyDotDot]

15 minutes ago, Emma9 said:

Very good point, especially since he'd just made a point of saying he'd have enough time to do something vindictive before he burned if they double-crossed him.

That whole scene was totally ridiculous. Bart grabs "Smash" and threatens her, so the boys back off and he releases her....and they just stand there waiting for her to notice the lighter in the box. I was like, "Um, guys, she's free now, how about setting those bones on fire?"

And then when she does finally pick up the lighter, Bart just stands there waiting for her to light it. I was like, "Um, Bart, I thought you could do stuff in a fraction of a second, why not teleport away?"

And then they stand there and watch him burn for a bit before they realize the spell is burning too. I was like, "Um, show, why is everyone acting so dumb?"

I realize it was directed by Singer and these things happen when he's at the wheel, but seriously.

[Jonesy]

Very entertaining episode. Jensen was just great with the physical comedy--enjoyed Snatch as a Charlie character who had strong chemistry with Dean.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Jakes

[bethy]

I'm finding it so interesting that people saw Snatch as a Charlie-character. I didn't think about Charlie once during her time on the screen. I think of Charlie as bubbly and out-going while Grab was almost sullen in my mind with her headphones and eyes on her phone and somewhat snippy replies. I haven't rewatched, though I plan to. I'll see if I seen it then. 

Edited December 4, 2017 by bethy
Smash is not actually Grab

[Katy M]

25 minutes ago, bethy said:

I'm finding it so interesting that people saw Grab as a Charlie-character. I didn't think about Charlie once during her time on the screen. I think of Charlie as bubbly and out-going while Grab was almost sullen in my mind with her headphones and eyes on her phone and somewhat snippy replies. I haven't rewatched, though I plan to. I'll see if I seen it then. 

Wasn't Smash the girl?  But, yeah, I agree.  I don't see what's "Charlie" about her. She has a specialized skill that she excels at.  That was about it.  Now, if she comes back in another epi with all men falling at her feet and learned hunting on her own, then, sure, she's Charlie.

[bethy]

24 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Wasn't Smash the girl? 

She was. Fixed - thanks!

Edited December 4, 2017 by bethy

[DittyDotDot]

40 minutes ago, bethy said:

I'm finding it so interesting that people saw Snatch as a Charlie-character. I didn't think about Charlie once during her time on the screen. I think of Charlie as bubbly and out-going while Grab was almost sullen in my mind with her headphones and eyes on her phone and somewhat snippy replies. I haven't rewatched, though I plan to. I'll see if I seen it then. 

For me, it was her geeky-little-sister-that's-too-just-cool-for-school vibe, just like Charlie was. The bus station scene didn't help either.

[catrox14]

41 minutes ago, bethy said:

I'm finding it so interesting that people saw Snatch as a Charlie-character. I didn't think about Charlie once during her time on the screen. I think of Charlie as bubbly and out-going while Grab was almost sullen in my mind with her headphones and eyes on her phone and somewhat snippy replies. I haven't rewatched, though I plan to. I'll see if I seen it then. 

For me it's not that she was like Charlie in personality but her introduction and connection to Dean which IMO was  a lift from Girl with the dungeons and a dragon Tattoo but altered into The Girl with Nerve Damage and Doc Martens &  Eyeliner

Quirky/weird/sassy

Caper to get into something to get something.

Her being a safe cracker instead of a hacker

Vwrbal sparring between her and Dean resulting in grudging respect earned between them. Flashing the peace sign and sticking her tongue out at him instead of calling them bitches, as they out her on a bus

It also seemed to be lampshaded that she is the new Not! Charlie when Alice  said "Sorry, Charlie" which IMO intentional to invoke thoughts of Charlie. In a way, she was Not Charlie and Not!Claire which is paralleled with Bart being Not!Crowley. Maybe it's a misdirect and we re going to see Charlie in the AU somehow.

IMO  think it's part of the show's theme" for this season which Dean stated in Tombstone "I'm tired of fighting things that look like other things". IMO, that was not a throwaway line but a clue that things are not exactly as the boys think they are and not exactly as viewers think they are, hence my ongoing spec that Cas is not fully Cas, that something is off with him, aside from his wardrobe change LOL, which I'm surprised no one in show has remarked upon. LOL

[Katy M]

48 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Maybe it's a misdirect and we re going to see Charlie in the AU somehow.

well, maybe in the AU she won't be Charlie sue.

[Boopsahoy]

On ‎12‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 0:20 AM, Lemuria said:

I recommend "Hot Rock," based on one of Westlake's Dortmunder novels, starring a stunning Robert Redford and a whole bunch of great comic actors, like Zero Mostel, George Segal, Paul Sand. Very enjoyable film. 

Enjoyable film but the books are better!

[Hanahope]

Did I miss how Bart got onto the grounds to kill Shrike?  I thought the whole grounds were warded, which is why Dean had to do a spell to summon Grab.  And when Smash tried to run away, Bart was waiting outside the gates.  And it sounded like when Shrike said he couldn't be killed, it was on the property he owned, not necessarily limited to just the house.  Otherwise, shouldn't he have known that Bart would be waiting right outside for him, ready to kill him the moment he went outside?  And why wasn't Bart waiting there, once he saw Dean had the bones? It just didn't seem to make a lot of sense, but maybe I missed a key sentence.

And yeah, the whole bit with the burning paper was ridiculous.

I did love how Sam and Dean pushed Shrike through the poisoned dart room.  That was perfect!

[DittyDotDot]

23 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

Did I miss how Bart got onto the grounds to kill Shrike?  I thought the whole grounds were warded, which is why Dean had to do a spell to summon Grab.  And when Smash tried to run away, Bart was waiting outside the gates.  And it sounded like when Shrike said he couldn't be killed, it was on the property he owned, not necessarily limited to just the house.  Otherwise, shouldn't he have known that Bart would be waiting right outside for him, ready to kill him the moment he went outside?  And why wasn't Bart waiting there, once he saw Dean had the bones? It just didn't seem to make a lot of sense, but maybe I missed a key sentence.

I don't think you missed a sentence, but I got the impression he not only left the house, but his property to have the final showdown. Which, pretty dumb. All he had to do was wait at the closed gate, but there was a lot of conveniently convenient here, so... .

[Katy M]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't think you missed a sentence, but I got the impression he not only left the house, but his property to have the final showdown. Which, pretty dumb. All he had to do was wait at the closed gate, but there was a lot of conveniently convenient here, so... .

So, did he not only leave the property, but also open the gate and leave it open for Sam and Dean?  Because they didn't open it.  I don't recall seeing a gate anywhere as they were driving either.  I think I'm going to have to watch again, but that was a long driveway and it doesn't seem like they drove far enough to get out.  I would think decapitation would beat immortality anyway, so it wouldn't matter.  

[MysteryGuest]

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Verbal sparring between her and Dean resulting in grudging respect earned between them. Flashing the peace sign and sticking her tongue out at him instead of calling them bitches, as they out her on a bus

I don't think the above was reserved for Charlie alone.  I think that was Dean's relationship with a number of women/girls on the show.  Charlie, Krissy, Claire, etc., and any female character that doesn't die at the end seems to get that one-way car ride to the bus station from the boys.  I enjoyed their interaction.  But then I've enjoyed most of the other interactions Dean's had with the other characters, as well.  

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't think the above was reserved for Charlie alone.  I think that was Dean's relationship with a number of women/girls on the show.  Charlie, Krissy, Claire, etc., and any female character that doesn't die at the end seems to get that one-way car ride to the bus station from the boys.  I enjoyed their interaction.  But then I've enjoyed most of the other interactions Dean's had with the other characters, as well.  

I didn't say it wasn't enjoyable? It would have been more enjoyable if it wasn't so obviously intended to invoke Charlie which felt annoying because Charlie wasn't the same as the others' you've noted as  Charlie was clearly their chosen sister. Felt a little too forced for my tastes. JMHO.

[catrox14]

ETA: I felt like she was a Poor Man's Charlie like we had Poor Man's Crowley. Didn't care for that. That said I think it was intentional to another eventual end with a reveal that Cas isn't quite Cas.

[DittyDotDot]

45 minutes ago, Katy M said:

So, did he not only leave the property, but also open the gate and leave it open for Sam and Dean?

Yes, that's my theory, he left the gate open because he was planning on doing his last stand on the road--which, as I said, was pretty dumb, IMO. But, it conveniently allows for him to be killed conveniently while also conveniently allowing for Bart to arrive on the scene when he wouldn't have been able to if they were still on his property due to the warding.

[JanetWaldo]

I liked the bits of Sam with Shrike, especially in the office knowing the difference between a basilisk tooth and a gorgon's tooth.  As an aside: when Dean and Sam were in the vault, I kept thinking they were calling him Shrek!  I liked that the show remembers Dean's time in Hell also, but I thought the bit with him putting his hand in the stone mouth thing was overdone.  Bart was a pretty good character too, but I didn't like either of his minions much.  Lots of good action in this one.

[sarthaz]

Every background demon has an angel blade that kills all kinds of shit, but Luther's going to wet his pants over a knife that only kills demons?  Maybe.  Dude lives 200 years, is rocking immortality, has been to Hell and back, keeps crossroad demon bones in his supernatural vault, is on a first-name basis with a Prince of Hell, and he doesn't immediately know who Sam Winchester is?  No f'n way.

I bristled when Bart called Sam the smart one, and then Dean sticks his right hand in the vault mouth like a moron.

[Whodunnit]

Did Sam actually use his name? Usually the brothers use an alias in situations like this one.

Honestly, I thought that the guy was pretending not to know who Sam was until he seemed surprised that Sam wasn't a demon.

[Myrelle]

I liked this episode very much. The call back to Dean's Hell time was so overdue and as someone else mentioned, to have it as a plot point was icing on the cake.

I liked all the guest actors-especially Alice, who had such nice chemistry with Dean. The little scene of their sharing of Nerve Damage was Gold. I also liked that all the baddies were done away with in this one-even Bart-because as Dean said no more Crowleys for him-but what I found most interesting about that statement from Dean in this one is that it was delivered almost wistfully by Dean. Loved that. So much.

Sam as "the smart one" comment again?-Boo! Hiss! to that Ms. Glynn, but whatever.

Dean still seemed  latently on edge to me in this one, so I hope that leads somewhere this season. He wasn't "allowed" to die by Death and then he got the Cas resurrection "win", but he still seemed as if any little setback might possibly send him over the edge again. His interactions with all of the baddies in this one backed that up, IMO also. Loved that. So much. Again.

Two problems I had with this one were 1)the background music was horrendous, IMO-it was bad enough when they were moving through the grounds, but that I could at least ignore. It was the scene at the end when Shrike was telling the brothers about the deal he'd made with Bart to save his son's life and how Bart had allowed his son to die before the appointed ten years that was the worst-the music was so friggin' maudlin that all I could do was roll my eyes. And 2) that whole scene had me wondering if Bart lied about everything at the diner, including Shrike being a demented murderer. I'm assuming he DID lie about that, but maybe I'm wrong...*shrugs*...

I'm missing Dean getting kills and actual "wins" in the fighting dept. this season, which seems to be a continuation of last season. So Boo! Hiss! to that, too, but I'm appreciating that Jensen is still trying as hard as he can to keep the Badassity in Dean, in spite of that. He's doing a stellar job in that regard, but there's still too much sound and fury signifying very little in reality in that regard, IMO. I need to see the too-tightly-wound-and-coiled Dean Winchester of S13 snap in some big way, before this season is over, or the Ackting is all for nothing, AFAIC. So yeah, still here waiting for that, writers...

Edited December 13, 2017 by Myrelle

[AwesomO4000]

On 12/7/2017 at 11:54 PM, sarthaz said:

Every background demon has an angel blade that kills all kinds of shit, but Luther's going to wet his pants over a knife that only kills demons?  Maybe.

But I think Luther did say that he was a collector - or someone said that he was a collector? - and that's a different thing. In that case, it doesn't matter that the demon knife doesn't do as much as an angel blade does. It only matters that angel blades now are all over the place, but the demon knife is - as far as we know - the only one. So to a collector of supernatural items, the demon knife is more desirable. I have a bit of collector in me, so I get that. Something I don't have yet is usually more interesting to me** than something I already have in my collection, even if it's not as pretty, expensive, etc. as one I already have.

Interestingly one consequence of all the angel blades around is that someone who might have had a then very rare angel blade a few years ago, now basically has something all the bad guys have... so the market value has decreased significantly. That's one reason I collect stuff I like, because I like them... doing it for profit is much riskier and can lead to disappointment.

** Within reason. I am particular about what I collect.

[gonzosgirrl]

28 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But I think Luther did say that he was a collector - or someone said that he was a collector? - and that's a different thing. In that case, it doesn't matter that the demon knife doesn't do as much as an angel blade does. It only matters that angel blades now are all over the place, but the demon knife is - as far as we know - the only one. So to a collector of supernatural items, the demon knife is more desirable. I have a bit of collector in me, so I get that. Something I don't have yet is usually more interesting to me** than something I already have in my collection, even if it's not as pretty, expensive, etc. as one I already have.

Interestingly one consequence of all the angel blades around is that someone who might have had a then very rare angel blade a few years ago, now basically has something all the bad guys have... so the market value has decreased significantly. That's one reason I collect stuff I like, because I like them... doing it for profit is much riskier and can lead to disappointment.

** Within reason. I am particular about what I collect.

So angel blades are the supernatural version of Beanie Babies. That works. LOL!

[Pondlass1]

Did Sam get Ruby's knife back?  I can't remember? 

[gonzosgirrl]

20 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Did Sam get Ruby's knife back?  I can't remember? 

They never showed it on screen, but I have to hope they went back for it. Even if they have BeanieBlades (tm - me), the demon knife is much more compact and I'd think, easier to wield.

[Katy M]

Plus, Luther just knocked Sam out and then came to find Dean.  SAm later showed up.  Stands to reason he grabbed the knife before he ever left the house.

[AwesomO4000]

21 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Did Sam get Ruby's knife back?  I can't remember? 

I don't remember either. I will have to rewatch to see if I can tell... But hopefully someone who knows will answer before that, because these next few days - putting the kitchen back together (remodeling) and getting ready to go on our usual 10 day long holiday trek - are going to be crazy busy for me.

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

They never showed it on screen, but I have to hope they went back for it. Even if they have BeanieBlades (tm - me), the demon knife is much more compact and I'd think, easier to wield.

Agreed and not everyone has the Dean Winchester coat of many pockets that fits / conceals everything.

[DittyDotDot]

34 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Did Sam get Ruby's knife back?  I can't remember? 

I'd have to rewatch to be sure, but didn't the old guy take it to the vault? For some reason I was thinking he killed "Grab" with it, but now I'm not sure. Anyway, I'm guessing it was retrieved one way or another. Once the old guy and Bart were dead, they had all the time in the world to go back and collect it. Hey, maybe they raided the old man's collection while they were at it?

[Pondlass1]

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Hey, maybe they raided the old man's collection while they were at it?

I'd really like to see some scenes of  the brothers doing this kind of stuff.  Baby's boot is big enough and they wear coats of many pockets.

[Katy M]

13 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'd have to rewatch to be sure, but didn't the old guy take it to the vault? For some reason I was thinking he killed "Grab" with it, but now I'm not sure. Anyway, I'm guessing it was retrieved one way or another. Once the old guy and Bart were dead, they had all the time in the world to go back and collect it. Hey, maybe they raided the old man's collection while they were at it?

You're right.  Of course, he killed grab with it.  So, they took it off him before they tied him up.  

[DittyDotDot]

51 minutes ago, Katy M said:

You're right.  Of course, he killed grab with it.  So, they took it off him before they tied him up.  

Thanks, I wasn't 100 percent it was the knife-that-can-kill-anything-except-when-it-can't or if it was an angel blade.

58 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I'd really like to see some scenes of  the brothers doing this kind of stuff.  Baby's boot is big enough and they wear coats of many pockets.

Me too. Me too.

[catrox14]

FYI, here's the actor that played Luther as the Night's King in Game of Thrones which makes the GoT joke between Dean and Luther hilariously meta.

[Wayward Son]

I liked this one better on rewatch. I also noticed Bart handed Smash what looked like a scroll prior to the burn up. So I'm going to assume that he gave her a formal second contract which freed her of her original deal. That would make the inconsistency between this episode and Gunnar's death in Beyond the Mat work :) 

[takalotti]

I think this is going to be the start of a long series of attacks on the THEN segments (previously on...).

 

So I didn’t get to rewatch this episode before it got deleted from my CW app, and the transcript I found online didn’t include the THEN segment, but I am absolutely sure that it didn’t include Cas and Lucifer getting locked up by Asmodeus, or that Asmodeus was mimicking Cas and using his phone.

 

And that’s fine if the show just wants to table that storyline for a bit for whatever real life scheduling/cost reasons and get back to it later. Really, I’m fine with that. If it doesn’t play into the current episode, then don’t include it in the THEN segment.

 

But listen up, Show! IF YOU'RE GONNA INCLUDE THE FOLLOWING DIALOG...

 

DEAN: What about Jack? 

SAM: I talked to Cas. He's got nothing.

 

...THEN YOU SHOULD REMIND PEOPLE THAT THEY AREN'T REALLY TALKING TO CAS!!!

 

I mean, I’m glad that they included that dialog. Otherwise I’d be complaining "Why aren’t they wondering where Cas is? Last time this happened Dean was a worry wart about it. This makes no sense." But the casual viewer is going to think they’re really talking to Cas and it’ll be confusing later. Won’t it?

 

Also, Exhibit T that these guys need to have a goddamn password when talking to each other, either on the phone all the time or in person when they’ve been separated (other than when everyone’s at the bunker because I’ll buy that it’s perfectly warded, fine). Will it cover possessions or that special kind of shape shifting where they also get your memory? No. But it’s SOMEthing!

 

Most everything else I thought about the episode was already covered in previous posts. Lots of weak spots and odd decisions.

 

Here's a question. It’s just for fun to add to the discussion about the definition of "person who's been to hell and back." So Sam doesn’t count because he portalled in, no deal or dying involved. Dean counts because he made a deal, died, went to hell, and managed to come back. Okay. Hypothetically, what if there was a person who never made a deal but was just such a terrible person that when they happened to die they got sent to Hell, then somehow managed to deal their way out (like Shrike). Would that person count and be able to open the vault?

 

I have another "Just for fun hypothetical" but it ties into the next episode so, spoiler tagged...

 

Spoiler

I get not letting the boys "win" the full tracking spell if the show is trying to drag out having them find Jack for a few more episodes. But considering the fact that the track down Jack very next episode, why not let them succeed? Why not let them stomp out the flames on the second page and get to keep it mostly intact? There could be a little bit of "Oh no, is it too damaged? Was this all for naught?" drama, but then next episode could have Sam saying "Get this, I translated the intact parts and I have enough to go on to fill in the blanks." They could use that to actually track Jack to Derek's place, and everything else’s about the episode could have carried on as it did. The only thing that would have to be considered is Jody being a little bit in the loop about what the boys were currently up to since she’s the one who needs to wonder why they’re not answering messages. Patience could still be tied in just due to her visions since Dean wouldn’t have been calling her for help if they had the spell.

 

On 12/2/2017 at 10:37 PM, ahrtee said:

Donald Westlake is the King of the Comic Caper Novel and JOHN ARCHIBALD DORTMUNDER, his prize creation, is the savvy professional thief whose plans always, for some strange reason, go spectacularly and hilariously awry.  (from The Thrilling Detective website: http://www.thrillingdetective.com/dortmunder.html )

Wait, what? Why on earth would the boys pick an alias of a thief whose plans DON'T work?

 

On 12/3/2017 at 11:35 AM, DittyDotDot said:

That whole scene was totally ridiculous. Bart grabs "Smash" and threatens her, so the boys back off and he releases her....and they just stand there waiting for her to notice the lighter in the box. I was like, "Um, guys, she's free now, how about setting those bones on fire?"

And then when she does finally pick up the lighter, Bart just stands there waiting for her to light it. I was like, "Um, Bart, I thought you could do stuff in a fraction of a second, why not teleport away?"

And then they stand there and watch him burn for a bit before they realize the spell is burning too. I was like, "Um, show, why is everyone acting so dumb?"

I realize it was directed by Singer and these things happen when he's at the wheel, but seriously.

I don’t keep track of directors for each episode, but I’ve been noticing a lot of slow reactions this season and agree they are ridiculous. The boys stopping in their tracks when they see Donatello being attacked by a demon and gawking for a second (to justify Dean's super cool blade throwing), Dean and Jody exchanging a "That's weird. Why would she be screaming as if she’s in danger like we just said she was?" look when Patience screamed from her bedroom, the sheriff in Tombstone shooting the ghoul when Dean stepped aside. It’s so awkward and takes me right out of those scenes.

Edited March 1, 2018 by takalotti

[Myrelle]

On ‎11‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 10:16 PM, Bergamot said:

I have not watched the episode yet, but seeing this makes me SO. HAPPY. I can hardly believe it! And not just that it was mentioned, that it was used in the story somehow? Icing on the cake!

(When was the last time this came up in an episode? I remember at the beginning of season 7, in "Hello, Cruel World", Dean mentioned to Sam that he has been to Hell, and "knows a thing or two about torture." Has it really been that long since it's even been mentioned?)

Hey, maybe next the show will remember that Dean is the Sword of Michael, and his one true vessel! Or is that just crazy talk? :-)

This is just Beautiful. Absolutely Beautiful.

[hypnotoad]

Quote

The plan to roll Luther into the vault to get rid of his traps

That scene made me laugh a lot harder than it really should have. I am pushing through season 13 and while this episode certainly didn't move plot forward, it was a rather fun filler type. Season 13 has been a bit of a downer so this at least was a change of pace. Plus the brothers hunting together without anyone else. I really enjoyed that!

Why is Ketch back? Why???? Now I have to suffer Lucifer and Ketch this season? I think these writers actually hate the fans ...

[The Companion]

On 11/30/2017 at 8:06 PM, MysteryGuest said:

This was a harmless little filler episode.  I actually liked most of the characters.  Even the demons weren't your typical boring demons.  It had humorous moments and was inoffensive, which I know doesn't exactly sound like a glowing recommendation, but I enjoyed the episode for the most part.

But seriously, rule number one with burning paper...just step on it!  The fact that they had Sam actually try to blow the flames out and then fan them out is absurd.  All he did was make it burn faster, and certainly Sam would know this basic concept about paper and fire.  That scene was laugh-out-loud stupid.  

I agree. There are some pretty big plot holes and a few wtf moments but it was entertaining. 

Blowing on the fire was ridiculous, though.

On 11/30/2017 at 8:08 PM, Katy M said:

I liked it.  But, I yelled at them a couple of times.  Dean, you don't eat pie that a demon offers you.  You just don't.  And, if you must put your hand in that thing, put your left hand in.  You are right handed.  If it's going to chomp your hand off, you want it to be the left one.

 

But . . . pie. Evil pie is still pie.

 

On 11/30/2017 at 9:29 PM, ILoveReading said:

Sam to Dean.  "Don't get dead.

 

I loved that line

On 11/30/2017 at 11:40 PM, SueB said:

 

Regardless, this is an episode we are not supposed to overly examine but just enjoy.  I was happy to do that.

Agreed. It was entertaining, despite its flaws and there were definitely some pretty big ones. I think the weirdest thing for me was that this guy made a deal to save his son, found leverage and used it to . . . live forever. He could have asked for his son back. And all of this happened under Crowley? I am assuming. 

 

On 12/2/2017 at 10:56 AM, DittyDotDot said:

It's a fable: A scorpion asks a frog to carry it across a river. The frog hesitates, afraid of being stung, but the scorpion argues that if it did so, they would both drown. Considering this, the frog agrees, but midway across the river the scorpion does indeed sting the frog, dooming them both. When the frog asks the scorpion why, the scorpion replies that it was in its nature to do so.

So, in this case I'd say Bart was the scorpion and Sam and Dean were the frog.

I sorta assumed it was Dean and Sam. It's in their nature to kill demons. It's what they do. 

 

Guys, perhaps Sam was just being protective of his shoes.