S13.E08: The Scorpion and The Frog

[catrox14]

20 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

hough considering that Dean hates spiders and Sam has seemed to like them i the past, I think it would be entirely amusing if Sam got himself a pet tarantula just to bug Dean (pun intended). Then whenever Dean went into Sam's room, he'd have to be creeped out. I think it would entirely be a little brother thing to do.

Fuck that. That's just mean.

[AwesomO4000]

Hey it might keep Dean from farting on his pillow. Just sayin' ; )

Besides, I can't help it if I like spiders and think Sam needs a pet.

[catrox14]

Is there a new fashion with men and big ole wide ties like from the 70s? Sam had a really wide tie a couple of episodes ago and Bart had one in this episode.

[SueB]

That was fun.  I'm surprisingly unconcerned about the immortal guy dying.  Mostly because he seemed like an asshole.  And what was the deal he made to get out of hell? Plus, how was he immortal?  IDK... I just found him creepy.

OTOH... BOYS... go back to that house and take some crap -- he had good stuff.

*facepalm* Blowing on the fire??  

Liked "Smash".  Loved the car driving stunt.  Loved the solution to the poor man's Indiana Jones.  

Also, just because Bart is dead, how is Alice free of her deal?  Won't Bart's replacement just order her soul collected?  

Regardless, this is an episode we are not supposed to overly examine but just enjoy.  I was happy to do that.

[catrox14]

tippitv

A better way to put out fires:

http://tippitv.tumblr.com/post/168063423172

[catrox14]

Weirdly. I liked this episode even less upon rewatch. The tone was all over the place.

And here comes my gripe. 

I was pretty excited about Dean's Hell time being referenced and actually showing his suffering in Hell and the idea that his blood is needed for the spell. I felt a moment of Righteous Man and Dean's seriousness reaction to it, and Sam looking at Dean like "Oh shit". 

And then it's treated like a joke. I'm more disappointed now that I've had time to think about it. The spider thing was funny but yeah.

I hope the blood thing becomes important again in a serious way, but it probably won't.

I didn't like Bob Singer's direction. I didn't like Alice that much upon rewatch. It felt like another character being ste up for the Wayward Sisters with the whole 'You do you. Stay weird" thing. Bleh.

Sigh. Maybe on 3rd watch I'll be happier or not LOL

Weird.

[AnimeMania]

Check with the museum to see if they made a copy of the spell/scroll? 

[Wayward Son]

A few quick thoughts on this episode 

 

- Overall, I found it rather boring and meh. Sorry Glynn, but this definitely wasn’t one of your better scripts. Can we have Cas, Jack, and the rest of the cast back now please? 

 

There were a few dialogue issues, which could have been better explained.

 

- Personally, as others have said already, I assumed the whole “the crossroads demon” part meant he had taken over Crowley’s former position as king of the crossroads. He didn’t mean he was the only crossroads demon, but the most important of them. 

 

- The whole man to hell and back lore was a bit iffy also. I am going to assume what Glynn meant to convey was that only men who had legitimately died and gone to hell and returned could open the vault. While Sam has been to hell he has never died to get there. He has always used dimensional travel to get there*. First time he jumped through a portal to the cage, second time he travelled by portal with a rogue reaper and the third time through a portal with Crowley. 

 

- I have no sympathy for Luther and Bart didn’t do anything wrong when it came to their deal. As I understood it Luther gave his soul in exchange for his son being healed of the illness that plagued him. Bart healed his son and his son died via drowning in an unrelated incident two years later. Since there was no indication that Bart was the cause of this (unlike the demon breaking deals back in Time for a Wedding) the deal was not broken. Bart saved him from a specific plight. He did not promise immortality or to protect the son for the rest of his natural life. 

 

- Alice should have died at the end of this episode. There was a similar case back in Beyond the Mat, which coincidentally I rewatched yesterday. Gunnar agreed to kill others in exchange for him being safe from going to hell. However, as soon as the demon he made the deal with was killed the second deal was nullified and the hell hounds instantly arrived. This should have been the case here. Unless they are planning to say that deals will no longer exist. 

 

* If Dean’s trip to purgatory isn’t counted as a death then I don’t count Sam jumping into the cage as one either. Since in both instances they arrived there body and soul.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Bobcatkitten]

So I really liked it. Needed something entertaining and light after heavy season so far. I had a lot of positives and only a few slight criticisms.

Good:

The BM scene, of course. "We just keep working. Because that's what we do." And overall just the boys being concerned about each other etc. 

I liked Bart actually, even if he was a Crowley fill in. Same for Smash. And I was disappointed there wasn't at least a kiss on the cheek. I agree that there have recently been some throwaway moments where they make Dean not appealing to women or old and it's just not realistic. I mean look at him.

The Indiana Jones of it all was pretty cool. Them rolling the guy through the darts was epic and the driving/shooting scene was amazing. Points to anyone who figures out if Jensen actually drove the car for the stunt. 

Bad (that's a bit strong):

Some sort of explanation about the hell thing. Obviously Sam has been to hell and there is some sort of disqualifier. It was a big hole. Someone said on Twitter it could have been as easy as acknowledging both and then playing rock, paper, scissors for who went to find the safe. 

I love Jensen's comedic timing but I feel they are playing it up a bit too much (that's my unpopular opinion of the day.) Doesn't mean I don't laugh. Lord do I laugh. 

As others have mentioned, letting the spell burn was just stupid. Should have stamped it out and had part of it. 

[Katy M]

7 hours ago, Lemuria said:

Well, we know from "Sin City" that the Cage most likely was not in Hell, since Casey indicated that demons believed in their god, Lucifer, even though they didn't really know if he existed.  Which they most likely would have, if they'd had to walk around the Cage on a regular basis.  I thought it meant someone who had actually gone to Hell, ie, died and ended up in Hell, because of a deal or because he/she was a thoroughly rotten person, and who had then gotten out.  

The cage is definitely in Hell.  One, they discussed it after the Darkness got free and someone told Crowley that the cage had cracked. Two, In All Dogs Go to Heaven, Lucky told Sam to go to Hell.  Sam said he'd been. It didn't agree with him.  Three, In Appointment in Samarra, Death said he couldn't erase Sam's Hell, then later he said he was going to Hell to get Sam's soul. Four, in the Man Who Would Be King, Cas said that he went to "Harrow Hell" to free Sam. Five, In O Brother Where art Thou Lucifer said that the effect of the dArkness on Hell was immense and the cage was damaged.  Besides Crowley and his minion, these were all "people" who had actually been to the cage, so I'm going to take their words for it.

None of the demons had seen it because it was hidden deep in Hell and so they didn't know where it was.

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

Alice should have died at the end of this episode. There was a similar case back in Beyond the Mat, which coincidentally I rewatched yesterday. Gunnar agreed to kill others in exchange for him being safe from going to hell. However, as soon as the demon he made the deal with was killed the second deal was nullified and the hell hounds instantly arrived. This should have been the case here. Unless they are planning to say that deals will no longer exist. 

Bart had set up a second deal with that as long as she kept working for him he wouldn't collect her soul.  Depending on the way it was worded, maybe he put an indefinite stay on the collection until he specifically ordered it.  Or, maybe he set it up to collect when she turned him down for a job. Either way, she should definitely go downstairs when she dies her natural death. 

[Pondlass1]

I enjoyed it as a casual viewer.  As an invested viewer there were lots of WTF's of course.  Sam and Dean rush half cocked into situations without a plan or proper intel.  They survive because of luck.  Why would Sam sell the demon killing knife when angels blades are so abundant?  (I think you could probably pick up one cheap at Walmart). Angel blades trump demon killing knife surely?  Instinct would have me putting my less dominant (left) hand into a scary cavity.  And Sam - with your huge plates of meat - why would you blow on a fire?  And - as someone pointed out - the museum would have a copy of that spell.

I could go on.  But as a casual viewer I enjoyed it.  The hour went by quickly.  Dean's 40 years in in hell were actually acknowledged.  Dean's annoyance with his guiding arm made me laugh out loud.  And someone noticed Dean's got a pretty face.

It ended nicely with Dean in a Henley.  (Maybe they turned up the heat at the bunker).

So overall I'm a happy camper.  Hope ratings are good.

[Aeryn13]

I thought that was decent enough, harmless fluff for the most part.

The scene where Dean has to stick his hand in the thing was too OTT for me. Could have done with 40 % less on the heavy slapstick there. Whereas the previous bits where his arm was the compass was actually funny. 

I did like that him having been to hell and back was not only acknowledged but actually a little plot point, if only for a side case here. Still better than have it completely forgotten. 

And the little semi-flirtatious vibe with the girl was nice, too. Because yeah, those "Dean is so old and unappealing now" barbs have been freaking ridiculous and only a thing on this freaking show. No other CW show tries to sell me on that dumb shit so I hope this one stops, too.

Sure, there was a lot of idiocy to go around still (blowing on the parchment, seriously?) and Bart was such an obvious faux-Crowley, they mimiced the look, the speech patterns, accent, demeanor, basically everything. Come on. 

I certainly found it a better episode than Glynn`s last outing.  

[Lady Calypso]

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I was pretty excited about Dean's Hell time being referenced and actually showing his suffering in Hell and the idea that his blood is needed for the spell. I felt a moment of Righteous Man and Dean's seriousness reaction to it, and Sam looking at Dean like "Oh shit". 

And then it's treated like a joke. I'm more disappointed now that I've had time to think about it. The spider thing was funny but yeah.

That's exactly how I felt! The spider thing gave me serious Yellow Fever vibes, but not even in a good way. Yellow Fever was in the fourth season, when the show still had a decent balance of light and dark, and Dean and Sam hadn't gone through as much shit as they have almost a decade later. Plus, Dean was infected during that episode, so the OTT reaction was understandable. 

This is the thirteenth season and it's not that there can't some slapstick comedy and Dean can't be afraid, and Jensen seemed to enjoy overplaying it, but I just found myself irritated. Plus, like you said, the tone of the episode was all over the place, and it wasn't balanced very well. At times, it felt like there were two completely different writers who wrote the episode, and then they picked and chose which scripts to use in the episode. 

Also, the way they wrapped up the Luther character, in particular, was rushed. First off, why in the world did he take off when Sam, Dean, and Alice were taking the trunk? Why didn't he stick around on his own property and blocked them at the gate? Also, the minute explanation of what Bart did instead of telling them, you know, when he was tied up in the vault. 

Yeah, 13 hours later, and I'm still not that impressed by the overall episode. Too many things that I'm questioning, even if there were moments I genuinely enjoyed. 

And once again, SAM, YOU DON'T BLOW ON THE FIRE BURNING YOUR SPELL. YOU STOMP ON IT. GODDAMNIT, SAM. I mean, at least it was Sam and not Dean who was handed the idiot ball, but I dislike whenever either boy is an idiot for the sake of plot. I literally saw several seconds of opportunity for Sam or Dean to stop the spell from being destroyed. It 100% could have saved about 50% of that spell, which is better than nothing, like what actually happened. 

I'm thinking back on Alice, and I still like her, but I'm ok if she's just been brought in to be put on the Wayward Sisters spinoff. 

Also, the Bart being the crossroads demon, I believe when he was in the diner with Sam and Dean, he specified that he took over Crowley's job as THE Crossroad Demon, and I think he emphasised the "The" part of it.

[catrox14]

8 hours ago, SueB said:

Regardless, this is an episode we are not supposed to overly examine but just enjoy.  I was happy to do that.

Are we really not supposed to overly examine it? Cause I am.  I'm not even going to overly examine it. I'm just going to examine it. Lighter episodes have typically had one if not more meaningful moments, hints and outright foreshadowing and I found a lot of that in this episode.

Remember Ask Jeeves? Super light AND SO MUCH BETTER than this one but at the end Dean flips out unloads an entire clip into the shifter signaling that Dean was still being deeply affected by the Mark.  Bad Day at Black Rock, showed that Bela was a new thing to deal with and Gordon now really wants Sam dead. Monster Movie saw Dean reflect on his new beginning after his resurrection, etc etc. Yellow Fever had Dean terrified and apparently he is a dick who scares people and he's clearly seeing things still when he saw Sam's eyes flash yellow like Azazel's. I can probably go through every light episode and find a key point that matters.

Why such a big emphasis Alice?  Her connecting with Dean was emphasized. Instead of calling them 'bitches", she stuck her tongue out at them. She was a Poor Man's Charlie, minus the genius hacker but genius safe cracker I guess. Sent off on a bus. She'll be back, maybe as a dead duck or part of Wayward Sisters.

Dean's blood. I don't think that will be a one time thing. Or rather I HOPE it won't be. For all those complaining about "Why couldn't it be Sam's blood". IMO it's because everyone in this episode made a deal with a crossroads demon. So to me the throughline is that Dean sold his soul for Sam, went to Hell and was resurrected. Sam has never successfully sold his soul nor was he ever dragged to Hell by Hellhounds.

This was a crumb and I'll gladly take them actually showing Dean in Hell again, and hope it is foreshadowing more . That said:

Spoiler

Based on the promo that look back is foreshadowing Mary in the AU trapped in the mini cage and shouting "Somebody Help Me!!".  Sigh.

 

I mean it's actually kind of a big deal really. Dean's blood is now  in that particular contraption...and that's just the end of it?  Seems like a plot hole or laying the ground work for something else. I am foolishly choosing the latter. 

Asmodeus is clearly fooling Sam (and by extension) Dean into thinking they are talking to Cas.

Maybe this was all one big joke episode that the smart guy (Sam) is being duped but I odn't think that was the intention. I think it's reminding us that Sam doesn't really know Cas like Dean does so Dean conveniently is not the one talking to Cas. Like honestly, that was the stupidest thing in the episode. Meredith could gave at least told us that Dean is pissed that Cas took off alone agaib and is being stubborn and won't talk to him. At least there is a reason for them to not be speaking. 

[Bobcatkitten]

I think the spider bit was a bit odd especially coming after the kind of similar scene with him going in the hole two episodes ago. I mean when has Dean Winchester ever been scared to do anything? Now two times pretty close together?

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, scribe95 said:

I think the spider bit was a bit odd especially coming after the kind of similar scene with him going in the hole two episodes ago. I mean when has Dean Winchester ever been scared to do anything? Now two times pretty close together?

He's been scared to do a lot of things, but he does them anyway, and he did this time also.  He's afraid to fly.  He was afraid to go to Hell, both when he had no choice in the matter because it was too late, but also when he went in The Devil's in the Details.  I would count saying, "nobody grab my leg" as showing a bit of fear in Family Remains. 

41 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Why would Sam sell the demon killing knife when angels blades are so abundant?  (I think you could probably pick up one cheap at Walmart).

I think you answered your own question.  Everybody and their brother has an angel blade.  So, I'm sure Luther already had one also.  He wouldn't need to buy one from Sam.  I do think they probably had something better in the bunker to risk, though.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, scribe95 said:

I think the spider bit was a bit odd especially coming after the kind of similar scene with him going in the hole two episodes ago. I mean when has Dean Winchester ever been scared to do anything? Now two times pretty close together?

Dean has never been thrilled with going into dark spaces. His bit last week was in line with his past grumblings about skulking in tunnels and air ducts. Also, Dean had a flashlight and a gun when he went into the holes in the ground and he could at least partly see what was ahead of him. Here he couldn't see anything and had no idea what was in there.

Honestly, I think that was a meta joke about Jensen. He's mentioned that he really doesn't do spiders and told a story about JJ finding a spider and running to daddy to kill it. And Jensen was like "Oh great". It's a pretty funny story and I think that was included to poke at Jensen a bit. 

[SueB]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Are we really not supposed to overly examine it? Cause I am.  I'm not even going to overly examine it. I'm just going to examine it. Lighter episodes have typically had one if not more meaningful moments, hints and outright foreshadowing and I found a lot of that in this episode.

Remember Ask Jeeves? Super light AND SO MUCH BETTER than this one but at the end Dean flips out unloads an entire clip into the shifter signaling that Dean was still being deeply affected by the Mark.  Bad Day at Black Rock, showed that Bela was a new thing to deal with and Gordon now really wants Sam dead. Monster Movie saw Dean reflect on his new beginning after his resurrection, etc etc. Yellow Fever had Dean terrified and apparently he is a dick who scares people and he's clearly seeing things still when he saw Sam's eyes flash yellow like Azazel's. I can probably go through every light episode and find a key point that matters.

Why such a big emphasis Alice?  Her connecting with Dean was emphasized. Instead of calling them 'bitches", she stuck her tongue out at them. She was a Poor Man's Charlie, minus the genius hacker but genius safe cracker I guess. Sent off on a bus. She'll be back, maybe as a dead duck or part of Wayward Sisters.

Dean's blood. I don't think that will be a one time thing. Or rather I HOPE it won't be. For all those complaining about "Why couldn't it be Sam's blood". IMO it's because everyone in this episode made a deal with a crossroads demon. So to me the throughline is that Dean sold his soul for Sam, went to Hell and was resurrected. Sam has never successfully sold his soul nor was he ever dragged to Hell by Hellhounds.

This was a crumb and I'll gladly take them actually showing Dean in Hell again, and hope it is foreshadowing more . That said:

  Hide contents

Based on the promo that look back is foreshadowing Mary in the AU trapped in the mini cage and shouting "Somebody Help Me!!".  Sigh.

 

I mean it's actually kind of a big deal really. Dean's blood is now  in that particular contraption...and that's just the end of it?  Seems like a plot hole or laying the ground work for something else. I am foolishly choosing the latter. 

Asmodeus is clearly fooling Sam (and by extension) Dean into thinking they are talking to Cas.

Maybe this was all one big joke episode that the smart guy (Sam) is being duped but I odn't think that was the intention. I think it's reminding us that Sam doesn't really know Cas like Dean does so Dean conveniently is not the one talking to Cas. Like honestly, that was the stupidest thing in the episode. Meredith could gave at least told us that Dean is pissed that Cas took off alone agaib and is being stubborn and won't talk to him. At least there is a reason for them to not be speaking. 

Sorry,I was tired... feel free to examine it closely... I was talking to myself.  I generally love examining with a fine tooth comb.  I'll do so upon 3rd rewatch.  Snuck in a rewatch before work already.

Quick thoughts:
- Sam blew on it because Jared had to put out the fire.  And set safety said "NO WAY".  Now they should have just VFx'd it but maybe they are saved the VFx budget for the locking mechanism and next way.  

- I like the idea that the second deal erased the first deal -- and Bart had a big enough ego to make it 'personal'.  Plus Crowley wasn't minding the store all that much, he probably didn't pick up on it.  And relative to her final destination, I'd say it depends on how she lives her life.  Selling her soul was horrible but if she didn't really believe it was 'real', then it's not the violation that the old guy had.  He knew it was real when he did it. And also, what kind of magic did he use to live to 200? 

[bethy]

Well, I’d say Sam blew on it because plot. :) They didn’t want the boys to have the locating spell. Plus they’ve set Jared on fire before or he could have used his ginormous feet in his boots!

They really should have figured out a different way for the spell to burn all the way. For me, Sam blowing on the fire was way more OOC than Dean not wanting to put his hand in the hole. :)

[Writing Wrongs]

I was laughing at Dean eyeing the pie throughout the conversation in the diner. I was like, "He's totally going to eat that" and he did!

[Katy M]

Maybe the paper was really old and Sam was afraid that by stepping on it, it would ruin it?

Edited December 1, 2017 by Katy M

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Maybe the paper was really old and Sam was afraid that by stepping on it, it would ruin it?

Heh. That's as good a reason as any. What is even more stupid, is why wasn't that part of the spell in a hermetically sealed bag? The first part was at least in some kind of covering. LOL

[Katy M]

They should have just had the demon clutch the paper to his fiery self out of vengeance.  I would have done it if I were him and I'm not even a demon.

[gonzosgirrl]

Nah, with Jared's giant feet, stomping out 1 sheet of paper on fire wouldn't be dangerous enough to warrant CGI. It was (IMO) pure plotonium-induced stupid that he blew on it instead.

Alice as poor-man's Charlie* -- I assume it was some kind of writer-meta that she actually referred to herself as Charlie - something like 'it's goodbye Charlie' when talking about her deal towards the end, I'd have to watch again to say for sure when.

*U/O: I liked Alice more in this episode than I did Charlie in all of hers combined.

[DittyDotDot]

Well that was a completely predictable hour of television. I knew what Bart wanted was his bones from the jump and couldn't help but wonder why Sam and Dean didn't consider it either. Add to the list of other things I knew from almost the jump: Despite protestations, Sam and Dean would do the heist and get the goods, but come up empty-handed in the end; "Grab" would be the red shirt and "Smash" would be too cool to die and the guy they were stealing from wouldn't be as straightforward as it seemed; There would be complications that weren't very complicated along the way. 

Anyhoo, I just kept feeling this episode would've been a lot of fun back when the Winchesters still had allies. As it was, I just couldn't get invested in all these random people they were working with and, as I said, it was completely predictable from start to finish. I also just kept thinking it would've been a lot easier--and maybe a lot more fun--for them to plan a heist to steal the spell from Bart. I guess I just I kept hoping for the twist that I knew was never coming on this one?

Plus, for all their so called Crowley look-a-likes this season, Bart was really the first one I felt they were trying to make like Crowley, which I think had possibilities, but the actor--and possibly the writing--missed the mark (HEE!!!!). And, I can't help but think "Smash" could be the new Charlie. Not to mention that I didn't feel like Sam or Dean were particularly Sam or Dean in this episode--TBH, this episode felt like someone was trying too hard to write in all the fan "wants" they could which usually doesn't make for a smooth episode,..whatever.

Anyhoo--again--not terrible, but nothing that really jumped out and grabbed me either.

Oh, but I do keep forgetting to mention that I've noticed they've have stepped up their action sequences this season; the fight and driving scenes have really been very cleverly done lately. It's never bad having Dean drive reckless and furious! There's something good to end on! ;)

17 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I wonder what the distinction is though? Sam went to Hell, unless the Cage wasn't actually in Hell? And they both walked in and out when they went after Lucifer in S11. Maybe it had to be someone who was damned? Who had sold their soul?

I wondered that at first too, but once it was revealed that the guy made a deal, was drug to Hell and returned, it made sense. Sam went to Hell and came back, but he didn't make a deal like Dean did. Although, I had to wonder why the guy didn't make it specifically his own blood, which would be far more unique, I'd think. But, we're probably not supposed to try and find any logic here, right? ;)

17 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Sam and Dean being stupid at various points during the episode. Actually, it was more Sam. I guess he was handed the idiot ball tonight. Standing around, gaping at Immortal Demon and then getting hit, even though he could have totally moved out of the way. Standing around while Bart was burning alive and it took several seconds for anyone to move for the spell.  

Yeah, I kinda felt both Sam and Dean were epic levels of dumb throughout the episode, but Sam especially seemed to carry that ball with great ease.

17 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I kept trying to place the actor and couldn't. Thank heavens for IMDb - he was the cop in Medium.

I had the same reaction and couldn't place him...thanks for clearing that up for me!

17 hours ago, catrox14 said:

That doesn't mean there will be anything between them. Dean is a gorgeous man so to me she was just remarking on his good looks, like anyone who isn't blind can see (objectively Dean is other worldly good looking man).

I think they were going for a bit of Jo vibe with Dean and "Smash" there. Like how she clearly had a crush on him, but he saw her more as a little sister.

17 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I thought he meant THE Crossroads demon. As in he's the head honcho, big cheese, lead Crossroads Demon, etc.

Not in the sense of being the only Crossroads Demon.

Yeah, I thought he was just saying he was "King of the Crossroads" like Crowley used to say before he dubbed himself "King of Hell".

17 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And the blade thing - I asked that out loud (my cat did not answer me). Does everyone and their uncle have an angel blade now?

I just always think back to Meg having one in S7 and saying a lot of angels died in the past year as an explanation. So, yeah, I think everyone and their uncle, cousin twice-removed, long-lost great-aunt by marriage and their ex-brother-in-law of their sister has one now.

16 hours ago, Miles said:

That bone burning thing shouldn't work in the first place anyway. Burning bones just severs the connection a ghost has to this world. For demons that connection was severed a long time ago. They just crawled their way back out. So burning the bones should do nothing.

You're right that it probably shouldn't work, but I think it makes no more or less sense than most everything else on the show and I kinda love that it does work. Or maybe it's just that they did a great job with the original reveal of it that I can't help but ignore the logic of it all?

14 hours ago, SueB said:

That was fun.  I'm surprisingly unconcerned about the immortal guy dying.  Mostly because he seemed like an asshole.  And what was the deal he made to get out of hell? Plus, how was he immortal?  IDK... I just found him creepy.

[..]

Also, just because Bart is dead, how is Alice free of her deal?  Won't Bart's replacement just order her soul collected?  

To the first, yeah, guy made a deal and it went bad so he made another deal and then went about collecting things to protect himself. Which I'm sure got some innocent people killed in the process. Can't really get worked up over his death considering he was technically already dead. Not to mention the actor was spectacularly super creepy too! ;)

To the second, I said the same thing. Isn't it basically the same problem they had with Dean? There was no cancelling the deal, but it sounded like her deal was to work for Bart or else go to Hell. So, no Bart would mean she is free of working for him without the going to Hell part, right? 

13 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I hope the blood thing becomes important again in a serious way, but it probably won't.

I'm not sure how it would? The blood was only important here because of the special circumstances. His blood could find the thing that was seeking the blood of someone else who made a deal and went to Hell like he did. So, unless they're searching for a similar device... .

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

said, it was completely predictable from start to finish. I also just kept thinking it would've been a lot easier--and maybe a lot more fun--for them to plan a heist to steal the spell from Bart. I guess I just I kept hoping for the twist that I knew was never coming on this one?

That would have been a great twist. Like they are pretty darn smart and sketchy at time. Heists should be right up their alley.

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm not sure how it would? The blood was only important here because of the special circumstances. His blood could find the thing that was seeking the blood of someone else who made a deal and went to Hell like he did. So, unless they're searching for a similar device... .

 My point is that Dean's blood is useful to finding things that have apparently been to Hell and back. John crawled out of Hell. Maybe Dean's blood could be used to find John in some way. It shouldn't ONLY be limited to this particular situation.

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That would have been a great twist. Like they are pretty darn smart and sketchy at time. Heists should be right up their alley.

 

Dean seemed almost as excited at the prospect of a heist as he was about the old west. :)

[catrox14]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

Dean seemed almost as excited at the prospect of a heist as he was about the old west. :)

I like Jensen's line delivery on that.

"What is this, a heist? Hold up. IS this a HEIST?"

That's the kind of comedy I love from Jensen and the show in general.

I will forever laugh at

"Craaaap...Bela"
"Bela?...Craaap".

It's all in the timing. LOL
 

"

[ahrtee]

Having just rewatched, I think some of the dissonance/annoyance comes from the music.  They were showing very serious and sometimes terrible actions with light, "caper-movie" music playing, like we were supposed to see everything as light-hearted and fun, even when people (deserving or not) were getting killed.  It would have been a whole different ep with different music--not necessarily better, but it might have fit the actions better and not left (me, at least) feeling like I'd been fooled somehow.

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well that was a completely predictable hour of television. I knew what Bart wanted was his bones from the jump and couldn't help but wonder why Sam and Dean didn't consider it either. Add to the list of other things I knew from almost the jump: Despite protestations, Sam and Dean would do the heist and get the goods, but come up empty-handed in the end; "Grab" would be the red shirt and "Smash" would be too cool to die and the guy they were stealing from wouldn't be as straightforward as it seemed; There would be complications that weren't very complicated along the way. 

Wow, you are way more psychic than I am. I figured the object was going to either be some kind of weapon that would destroy humanity, or change the whole state of demon affairs in a not good way for S&D.  I figured Smash would die, because I kind of liked her.  I was kind of torn on what would happen with the spell.  I figured they either wouldn't get it, or they would but it would call for them to do something immoral that they would have to grapple with.

[FlickChick]

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Having just rewatched, I think some of the dissonance/annoyance comes from the music.  They were showing very serious and sometimes terrible actions with light, "caper-movie" music playing, like we were supposed to see everything as light-hearted and fun, even when people (deserving or not) were getting killed.  It would have been a whole different ep with different music--not necessarily better, but it might have fit the actions better and not left (me, at least) feeling like I'd been fooled somehow.

I agree with this so much. I kept waiting for someone to mention the music. Well, it was the horrible music in this that made the episode practically unwatchable to me! Not only was it "caper-movie" music, but it was in 99% of the scenes overshadowing dialog and took me out of the episode. Just like on the shows targeted to tweens/teens. I actually checked to see if they had changed music composers/producers. I hope this won't be a trend now because they have the "teen Spawnefer" on the show (much to my dismay). I also agree with those who thought the "comedy" was overdone. I thought Dean looked like a buffoon through most of the episode and I don't like having that feeling at all. So all in all, a real disappointment to this viewer. :(

[Whodunnit]

Did anyone else think that smash looked like Claire with dark hair?

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Whodunnit said:

Did anyone else think that smash looked like Claire with dark hair?

I don't see any resemblance myself.

[Pondlass1]

I guess I enjoyed the episode more than most here.  I've only watched once and will have to go back and listen for the wrong music.  

Although the collector guy was creepy, I agree with ditty dot that it would have been way less complicated and more entertaining had the boys planned the heist to steal the spell from Bart themselves. It could have still been lightweight but also suspenseful and more nail biting.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I guess I enjoyed the episode more than most here.  I've only watched once and will have to go back and listen for the wrong music.  

Although the collector guy was creepy, I agree with ditty dot that it would have been way less complicated and more entertaining had the boys planned the heist to steal the spell from Bart themselves. It could have still been lightweight but also suspenseful and more nail biting.

Yeah the music was weird and distracting and oddly place.

[Whodunnit]

It was just an initial impression, really. I  blame makeup, their hair and eyes were done the same.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Whodunnit

[MysteryGuest]

I haven't yet watched a second time, but I still came away with an overall positive reaction to the episode.  It's not going to make the top 20 SPN episodes, but I was entertained.

I agree that the fact that Dean actually died and went to Hell is what sets his Hell time apart from Sam's.  I believe Wayward Son mentioned that, and it makes sense to me.

If I try really hard I can see similarities between Alice and Charlie, but it wasn't anything that stood out or bothered me while watching.  Since we're not allowed to have actual romantic relationships between the boys and women on this show, the closest we get is the little bit of flirting, or little sister teasing, but I enjoy those episodes.    They bring out a side of Dean that I like.  Alice, Charlie, Krissy, Claire, etc...I love those relationships because they're so different from the relationship he has with Sam.  And I'm not convinced that Alice is automatically slated to show up on Wayward Daughters.  I didn't get the spin off vibe with her character, but I guess anything's possible.

I don't fault Sam for the burning paper scene, but it's little scenes like those that to me really point out the inexperience/lack of talent of the writers.  It was a stupid scene, and could so easily have been written in a way as to not make Sam look like a moron.  So either the writer simply didn't care enough to have the scene make sense, or they aren't smart enough to come up with a viable alternative.  I find that hard to imagine, so my vote is for lazy and careless.  That disappoints me.

[Omegamom]

I liked Bart, the new King of the Crossroads. I was hoping to see more of him, but, alas, not to be.

Smash = Charlie 2.0. I liked her.

Yay, Dean in Hell flashback! Boy howdy, Jensen looked so very young!

The blood compass was both a cool idea, and funny in action. I also liked that the Latin incantation talked about blood and hell.

I actually like the fact that Dean, Mr. Super Hunter himself, is still scared of some things. It's one thing to run towards the Thing That Can Kill You--you're hopped up on adrenaline--but totally different to be facing a possible chomping by large stone lion's fangs without the adrenaline rush. And possible spiders. Or just plain cobwebs and creepy-crawly things.

So why didn't the boys just crawl over the floor in the vault? The darts came from the lion mouths, so they knew how far down they'd need to go. But pushing Mr. Immortal through, using him as a poison pincushion--that was a good idea too.

I'll admit, when creepy immortal guy talked about, "There's the riddle", I hoped that meant the boys would have to translate the symbols and figure out the pattern. Or something akin to Gandalf's solution to the doors to Moria: "Speak 'friend', and enter."

As soon as creepy immortal said he had leverage, I knew what was in the chest.

Sam. Sam Sam Sam Sam. Blowing on the flames?! Fanning the flames?! No no no, show writers, neither of the boys is that idiotic. Never. No. I would have believed it if Sam had stepped forward the instant Bart started burning, grabbed at the spell, and Bart held on to it, ripping it and burning the part he still held, but THIS?! No no no no NO.

And Charlie 2.0 is sent off on a bus, just like Charlie 1.0. And flashing a peace sign. Oh, c'mon, show. Let's not make that parallelism so damned obvious. She's not going to be a Wayward Daughter, she's going to show up again by the end of the season, and her safe-cracking skills will somehow be necessary to help conclude things.

As for why everyone has angel blades: I've said it before, the angel wars left dead angels every-damned-where, and their angel blades must litter the landscape. Any demon or Hunter worth his salt (heh) would have grabbed one, much too useful to ignore.

All in all, a fun, light-hearted episode. Not fantastic, but not bad.

[catrox14]

Fun fact: Luther Shrike is played by Richard Brake who also played the Night King in s4 and s5 of Game of Thrones. So some meta humor there.

Edited December 3, 2017 by catrox14

[ParadoxLost]

On ‎11‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 9:21 PM, bethy said:

I really liked this one. Like a LOT. Maybe I have a lower set of expectations these days, but I thought it was pretty fun all the way around.

My reaction was mixed.  I think the last half was a lot of fun.  The first half, not so much.  But I think it takes me a while get past my knee jerk reaction that an episode with demons (or angels for that matter) is not going to be enjoyable.

I laughed harder at them rolling the immortal down the hall to get rid of all the darts than I've laughed at anything in a while.  I may have visualized after that scene, Sam and Dean pushing a number of characters, that weren't in this episode, down the same hall after restocking the darts.

[Pondlass1]

11 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

an episode with demons (or angels for that matter) is not going to be enjoyable.

I'm with you on this.  I'm SO over them and their clipboards and business suits and bad acting.  

[Jynnan tonnix]

Add me to those who found the changes in tone and the music jarring enough to keep taking me out of the episode. While in the past I have enjoyed most of the stand-alone, more lighthearted episodes over all the myth-arc stuff in general (I honestly find it hard to keep track of a lot of it, maybe because I binge-watched the first 10 seasons over the course of a few months and never re-watched more than a handful - those mainly being the aforementioned lighter episodes), but for whatever reason, something about this one seemed forced to me. Maybe it's just because most of the tone has been so dark lately that it just felt like a not-very-good parody at times. The characters didn't seem organic. I didn't hate it, but kept having to remind myself about previous lighter episodes whenever I got a sense of "why are they not taking any of this seriously?", to keep myself from getting aggravated by the lack of consistency in the tone.

And, as an aside, what is the title of the episode supposed to mean? I'm just drawing a blank on that.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Jynnan tonnix

[DittyDotDot]

13 minutes ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

And, as an aside, what is the title of the episode supposed to mean? I'm just drawing a blank on that.

It's a fable: A scorpion asks a frog to carry it across a river. The frog hesitates, afraid of being stung, but the scorpion argues that if it did so, they would both drown. Considering this, the frog agrees, but midway across the river the scorpion does indeed sting the frog, dooming them both. When the frog asks the scorpion why, the scorpion replies that it was in its nature to do so.

So, in this case I'd say Bart was the scorpion and Sam and Dean were the frog.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

So, in this case I'd say Bart was the scorpion and Sam and Dean were the frog.

I think everyone was alternately the Scorpion or the Frog at some point in this episode.

[catrox14]

So I was thinking about Dean's blood being used to open the vault. Now it needed to be someone from Hell and back and I do think Dean's was necessary here as the one who sold his soul, was killed by hellhounds and was in the like "general population" Hell where he was tortured and eventually tortured others. That's a different kind of thing than Sam's Hell time. That said, I don't think it's going to be the end of the need for Winchester blood this season.

I was thinking about the Werther Project and how a Man of Letters' blood was needed to open that box. Sam was going to bleed out and then Dean showed up and their combined blood was enough to open the box, since they are both Men of Letters Legacies. 

I'm thinking that Sam's Hell time not specifically being mentioned here is going to come back. I'll bet you that something will come up down the road that maybe both of their blood will be needed just like the Werther Box.

So, yeah I think it not being mentioned wasn't a snub to Sam but is setting up for it to be a thing later.  I'm putting that out there as official speculation.

Edited December 2, 2017 by catrox14

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

So I was thinking about Dean's blood being used to open the vault. Now it needed to be someone from Hell and back and I do think Dean's was necessary here as the one who sold his soul, was killed by hellhounds and was in the like "general population" Hell where he was tortured and eventually tortured others. That's a different kind of thing than Sam's Hell time. That said, I don't think it's going to be the end of the need for Winchester blood this season.

I was thinking about the Werther Project and how a Man of Letters' blood was needed to open that box. Sam was going to bleed out and then Dean showed up and their combined blood was enough to open the box, since they are both Men of Letters Legacies. 

I'm thinking that Sam's Hell time not specifically being mentioned here is going to come back. I'll bet you that something will come up down the road that maybe both of their blood will be needed just like the Werther Box.

So, yeah I think it not being mentioned wasn't a snub to Sam but is setting up for it to be a thing later.  I'm putting that out there as official speculation.

So there was a discussion on twitter that Kevin Parks got involved in and he said it was because of Dean's deal.  Since Bart was a Crossroads demon it had to do with someone who went to hell because of a deal.  Meredith then tweeted "This" as a response.  It looks like that was her intent.  I have a feeling that parts of the script that would have explained that were cut? or she just didn't think it was going to need explanation.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

So there was a discussion on twitter that Kevin Parks got involved in and he said it was because of Dean's deal.  Since Bart was a Crossroads demon it had to do with someone who went to hell because of a deal.  Meredith then tweeted "This" as a response.  It looks like that was her intent.  I have a feeling that parts of the script that would have explained that were cut? or she just didn't think it was going to need explanation.

 I didn't think it needed any explanation at all for a few reasons. 

-- Dean's deal was the same as all the others in the episode so the theme seemed pretty relevant and clear to me anyway from the jump. It never crossed my mind that Sam's would be relevant because Sam wasn't condemned to Hell. He volunteered twice to go to Hell. He was never even partially turned into a demon like Dean had to have been along the way as well. Just completely different circumstances making the needs different.

-- If my theory is correct that something more is coming a la Werther Box, then Meredith isn't going to spoil a potential plot point. And IMO, the absence of the mention isn't an oversight or a snub but intentional for later.

-If Davy Perez saying that the writers gave Sam the Ramiel kill because it was evening out the kill stuff the maybe this was trying to give Dean's Hell time a little more relevance and look see.

Or maybe it was just in there to get my fellow Dean fans to stop bitching about it being so minimized in the narrative. So they made it a plot point for one episode and that could be the end of it. But I HOPE THAT IS NOT all there will be to it's relevance.

[gonzosgirrl]

5 hours ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

Add me to those who found the changes in tone and the music jarring enough to keep taking me out of the episode. While in the past I have enjoyed most of the stand-alone, more lighthearted episodes over all the myth-arc stuff in general (I honestly find it hard to keep track of a lot of it, maybe because I binge-watched the first 10 seasons over the course of a few months and never re-watched more than a handful - those mainly being the aforementioned lighter episodes), but for whatever reason, something about this one seemed forced to me. Maybe it's just because most of the tone has been so dark lately that it just felt like a not-very-good parody at times. The characters didn't seem organic. I didn't hate it, but kept having to remind myself about previous lighter episodes whenever I got a sense of "why are they not taking any of this seriously?", to keep myself from getting aggravated by the lack of consistency in the tone.

And, as an aside, what is the title of the episode supposed to mean? I'm just drawing a blank on that.

I think there was an element of parody, an homage of sorts to Indiana Jones. As a caper, nitpicks aside, this one mostly worked for me  (as a standalone), whereas the homage to Tarantino, Stuck In The Middle (With You) did not. At all. 

[Wynne88]

As far as Sam trying to blow out the flames, that's the sort of thing I would expect either the Director or the actor(s) to say, 'wait a minute, this is dumb,' and make some changes.  As several have pointed out, it wouldn't have been hard to get the same result in a much more rational manner.  I hate seeing actors hit with the supid stick.

[SueB]

I never saw it as a snub to Sam.  It was a crossroads demon's adversary, the 'deal' seemed pretty relevant.  And Alice was there because of a deal.  Shrike Reno tilted a deal.  "Deal" was the common theme.  Plus, I think forcing the writers to keep 'score' because fandom is easily butt hurt is just not necessary IMO.  A throw-away 'not Sam line' would not have hurt, but IMO it's too far to ascribe the motivation of 'snub' to it's absence.

I was originally confused by Shrike's blood being the same as Dean. I thought perhaps the bones prevented Shrike from going to Hell, BUT upon second/third listening, it's clear the Hell Hounds DID drag Shrike to Hell because he used past tense in the sentence and it implied by the use of the word "New" that the terms of the original deal had either been satisfied or set aside. He said: "When the hounds came and dragged me to Hell, I negotiated a new deal".  Which means, I think, he made it all the way to Hell and then negotiated the deal.  Perhaps he had the bones secured on an earthly plane and someone prepared to torch them if Shrike didn't come back.  Otherwise he wouldn't have been to hell and back and his blood wouldn't work.  

Maybe everyone else got that immediately, it took me a while.

Edited December 2, 2017 by SueB