S03.E08: Crisis On Earth-X (4)

[phoenics]

29 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I'd be okay if Barry at least tried to keep Thawne locked up even if he does eventually escape over Barry's "Bye, Thanwe. See you next time you kill more people because I'm just letting you go." 

That was just ... so dumb.  Barry went from being about to kill him to just ... letting him go?  I mean - WTF was that really?  Ugh - I hope this doesn't turn into a situation where Barry's actions lead to someone else getting hurt.  But it usually does.  I love Barry, but I call him out when he's wrong.

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The fought on top of a car and it was odd to me that so little time was spent on that fight TBH. I mean it was Evil Fuhrer Oliver vs Good!Oliver and it was on screen for a blip and partially at a distance other than Oliver shooting him with his arrow. I mean I cheered and victory armed but it was a rather anti-climactic showdown that had been built up over 4 episodes never mind all of the stuff in Arrow itself with Oliver and Prometheus and Oliver fighting his "dark side" in turns.  I was rather letdown by the fight myself.  Maybe the real showdown was in the lab with both of them using the others' wife as leverage. (yes I consider Olicity married for a long time in now. Fight me :P).

Actually I think that might be how the show saw it.  They did have that showdown with Felicity being held by EvilFuhrer and OverGirl held by Oliver... plus Felicity's "We will not go quietly into the night!  We will not vanish without a fight!" speech that I just paraphrased because it made me think of that Independence Day speech.  As speeches go, it was good - just like evil fuhrer said.

To be honest - I think the only characters to get a lot of focus in the final fight were the Legends.  I was okay with that.  We got such amazing Oliver vs Fuhrer moments in the first part of the crossover (remember their battle after Oliver jumped through Cisco's wormhole in the church - that was a fairly long scene?) and we got epic fight scenes from the rest of the characters before that.  Since this was the Legends episode - one thing I DID like was focusing more on the Legends.

Edited November 29, 2017 by phoenics

[Chicago Redshirt]

5 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

The truth is Firestorm was too powerful to have around.  There were far too many situations where they had to have Jax present without Stein because otherwise he could have solved the problem almost instantly.    That and the bean counters are probably happy about not having to pay for the flaming man effects.

This version of Firestorm was mainly the Human Torch. A couple of times, he transmuted matter,  but mostly he fired nuclear blasts/fireballs at people/things.  In that sense, he is not really different from Atom when he is in poor-man's Iron Man mode. He can fly and blast people/things from a distance. Indeed, he is weaker because Atom can withstand being hit by stuff. We saw that when Firestorm got hit by an arrow, he got split into Jax and Martin. 

Also, given that the Legends have a timeship with a supercomputer, they should be able to solve almost any problem.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Chicago Redshirt

[phoenics]

1 hour ago, DeadZeus said:

Weird... Might have to go rewatch. Still, would have like a bigger and better fight. And take out some small fry in the process.

Maybe they thought the first fight between them was enough?  There were a lot of ways this crossover could have been improved though so I get being irritated that there wasn't a more "main event" feeling to Oliver vs Fuhrer.

[InsertWordHere]

10 hours ago, phoenics said:

You are misunderstanding the trope I'm pointing out in the first place.  The trope isn't just being dragged out of mothballs to service the white character in one scene - it's being deprived of your own PoV over a period of time. 

I do not misunderstand the trope. I just strongly disagree that Barry is an example of the Black Best Friend trope. Full stop. I could see why the interracial couple getting upstaged by a white couple could be problematic, especially with the very unfortunate choice of camera angle, but that is dampened a little by one couple getting most of the wedding fixings at both their planned and unplanned ceremonies while the other couple did not. 

I also think it would have served nothing to have Iris and Barry talking about their interrupted wedding with Oliver and Felicity. What would that have established, exactly? It seems obvious that no couple would want their wedding to be interrupted by Nazis and they would be upset about it. I think the inclusion of these feelings in part two, which is the only place it would have fit, would have made Iris and Barry come across poorly. They were teetering on having Oliver and Felicity come off badly for me in episode two as well, but at least it was because they were trying to discuss and solve the issue, not commiserate over a past event that cannot be changed except for time travel (no Barry, no!). Also, I give Oliver a little leeway here because it's actually a weird sort of growth for him that he wanted to discuss it and wasn't 100% about the mission.

It says something good about Barry and Iris that they focused on solving the problem instead of the missed wedding. Iris was integral to freeing Supergirl and contacting the Legends and I would 1,000 times prefer that to her being some sort of disappointed bridezilla trope. Then again, I find the wedding-obsessed bride and chill groom in both media and real life to be much more problematic than a shared wedding. Thankfully, we got to have both Barry in previous episodes and Oliver really let their wedding love shine. Now that's good stuff.

55 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Maybe.  Or maybe Barry and Iris finally got to the point that they wanted to marry just so that they can be married to each other; not to save the other person or to prove anything or justify what they are doing.  That seemed to be the point that both couples reached by the end of the crossover -- that the relationship was what mattered not the trappings of a wedding. 

Beautifully put, and I want to marry this post in a small yet meaningful ceremony and I won't even care if my friends also want to jump in and marry their favorite posts at the same time. 

I am so happy that Legends seems to have gained some new fans. It is by far my favorite of the four shows and one of my favorite shows in general and it just really, really entertains me every week. 

Edited November 29, 2017 by InsertWordHere

[phoenics]

4 minutes ago, InsertWordHere said:

I could see why the interracial couple getting upstaged by a white couple could be problematic, especially with the very unfortunate choice of camera angle

Thank you.  

We don't have to agree about everything but it means a lot that you understood how this part was upsetting for some of us.  

[Trini]

8 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

And instead of talking about their love and examples of it, he talked about how he'd grown and changed in regards to love. Didn't even give specific examples of when or what aspects of their love encouraged him. He made it about himself.  It was a nice way of doing it, but he made his happiness and new love the story, instead of telling stories about Iris and Barry's love. 

He mentioned himself only in relation to them and their love. And telling stories isn't a requirement for a toast.

 

3 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Barry told Oliver that Felicity broke up with him when he told her the truth. (Felicity actually got mad at Oliver because he lied to her.)  So Oliver lied to her and that's what broke them up.  So yeah, if Barry hadn't given Oliver misinformation he probably would have told Felicity the truth and she would have known about William before he got kidnapped.

Yes, Oliver's lies is why Felicity dumped him both times. That's not Barry's fault. We don't know if Oliver would have told her about William.

 

6 hours ago, Angel12d said:

I think a lot of people are missing the point with the double wedding tbh. In an ideal world, both couples deserved their own moments on their own shows. But this is DCTV. And clearly they wanted to parallel the moment from the first crossover where Oliver told Barry that "Guys like us don't get the girl" by both getting their girls. I can totally picture MG and AK in the writers room being like "Oh, we're SO clever!"

It's the execution that was bad; I totally get the parallel. They could have gotten to it in several different ways that didn't have characters overstepping on other characters' moment.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Trini

[Miss Dee]

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

Honestly the Legends characters were one of the huge highlights for me.  It comes on now after the flash - and I've been sneaking in watches here and there, but I think it deserves more loyal viewership from me.

I'd love to get your perspective on Legends, @phoenics. We've liked a lot of the same shows, I think, so I'm hopeful you'd like this one too. Well, once you get past Season 1 anyway!

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

Um - he killed the evil Oliver?  I actually thought that was pretty cool, even if evil Oliver screamed like a punk when OverGirl died.  I actually rewound that several times just to hear that high pitched scream, lol.

See, I gotta defend Stephen Amell here. I don't care if Oliver's voice breaks like a 15-year-old boy on the edge of puberty - it doesn't stop him from being a badass. If Amell had to sound shocked and grief-stricken at the death of his wife, I'd rather he put in the raw emotion - which I felt Amell did - then try to attempt that while simultaneously trying to keep his voice below an arbitrary amount of decibels.

2 hours ago, DavidJSnyder said:

Why is Cold chiding Heatwave for shooting Nazis without due process?

My head canon? Leo was shocked and not really hearing the absurdity of what he was saying, because the Mick from Earth-X was a careful law-and-order type who tried to put guilty people* away and leave the killing to a minimum. Watching this Mick light people up like it ain't no thing was a visceral shock to his senses. Again: think Ray Palmer.

*The "right" people anyway, and hopefully others when he could. It seems he was friends with Leo, so assuming Leo didn't hide his orientation from him, I'd like to think that means Earth-X Mick was a little Oskar Schindler-ish where he could be within this system.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Miss Dee

[phoenics]

Just now, Miss Dee said:

 

See, I gotta defend Stephen Amell here. I don't care if Oliver's voice breaks like a 15-year-old boy on the edge of puberty - it doesn't stop him from being a badass. If Amell had to sound shocked and grief-stricken at the death of his wife, I'd rather he put in the raw emotion - which I felt Amell did - then try to attempt that while simultaneously trying to keep his voice below an arbitrary amount of decibels.

 

I'm sorry, lol.  It was just so unexpected to hear it come out that way.  Aaaaand now I can't stop laughing.  I think it was more that it started off low pitched and then kicked up into the higher pitches that did me in.

3 minutes ago, Trini said:

It's the execution that was bad; I totally get the parallel. They could have gotten to it in several different ways that didn't have one characters overstepping on other characters' moment.

Yes it was really just the execution.  With how badass the Iris/Felicity team up was - I was sad that the writers made the other missteps that they did because it killed some of my excitement.  I got the significance of the parallel and liked that they brought that back (because it was such a seminal moment in S1 Flash) - but the way they did it with making Olicity look the way they did was less than desirable for me.

Someone mentioned a cut scene where Felicity asks if it's okay before rushing forward - it's too bad they cut that - maybe that would have helped.  They probably cut a ton of things - maybe we'll see a lot of stuff when the cut scenes are released that will make it better.

[johntfs]

45 minutes ago, phoenics said:

That was just ... so dumb.  Barry went from being about to kill him to just ... letting him go?  I mean - WTF was that really?  Ugh - I hope this doesn't turn into a situation where Barry's actions lead to someone else getting hurt.  But it usually does.  I love Barry, but I call him out when he's wrong.

I thought so, too, but then I thought about it a little more.  I think in that moment, Thawne was willing to let Barry kill him, but would not have been willing to let Barry capture him.  If Barry had tried, Thawne would have continued the fight until he escaped or Barry actually did kill him.  And in continuing the fight, he'd probably endanger a lot of innocent people to try to get Barry to back off.  Plus, Barry has a complicated relationship with this version of Eobard Thawne.  This Thawne effectively made him the Flash and was his friend and mentor during most of his first year with powers.  Hell, in a roundabout way, this Thawne is a good part of the reason that Iris is marrying Barry instead of Eddie Thawne.  So aside from Barry's general unwillingness to kill, there's a lot of history between him and Thawne to the point that he's willing to take the win he has (Thawne goes away for now) instead of going for a better one.

 

That said, this is why Iris is the leader of Team Flash, because Iris would have straight up killed that evil fucker just like she killed Savitar.

[CabotCove]

Quote

I’m glad for their fans that Barry/Iris and Ollie/Felicity got married, but considering I don’t watch their shows I’d have rather the Legends episode ended with the Legends. But hey, a little happiness to end on was much appreciated after Stein’s death. Sniff.

I think you just have to treat these crossovers like one big movie. 

Quote

 

I thought it was quite rude of Oliver and Felicity to steal thunder.  

 

They were an annoying hijacker but they did not steal WestAllen's thunder, lol never. WA got moments to shine as a loving couple and those beautiful vows, they are on just on another level. O/F can try to upstage them and they still fail, boy do they try. O/F were a mess in this whole crossover and their decision to marry being forced in.  Perhaps that was the point of the double wedding, to contrast one couple being good for each other and functional [WA] while another is a total mess and a negative influence on each other[O/F].  Happy times for their fans.... I guess, but I wouldn't want something so substandard and tacky, the way its executed. How you gonna build a house on a shaky foundation....

Edited November 29, 2017 by HeroLeague

[johntfs]

7 minutes ago, HeroLeague said:

They were an annoying hijacker but they did not steal WestAllen's thunder, lol never. WA got moments to shine and beautiful vows, they are on another level. O/F can try to upstage them and they still fail. O/F were a mess in this whole crossover and their decision to marry being forced in.  Perhaps that was the point of the double wedding, to contrast one couple being good for each other and functional [WA] while another is a total mess and a negative influence on each other[O/F.  Happy times for their fans.... I guess, but I wouldn't want something so substandard, the way it was executed. 

I don't really see much of a hi-jacking after Barry basically kidnapped Dig to do his nuptials once he and Iris decided, "Screw it, let's get married right this fucking second before anything else can go wrong."  Felicity and Oliver decided, "Yes, smart idea, guys, let's do that too."  I think Felicity and Oliver are good and functional together, even if they have a had a rough row to hoe to get to this point.  I think Iris is probably better for Barry than he is for her, but mostly because Iris has been present as something of the perfect woman, which kind of annoys me.  It'd be nice to have a female minority someone who was a regular on a show, dating another character who was white or minority and also imperfect all at the same time.

[mrspidey]

15 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

Why bother killing him? Thawne has come back from the dead twice already, these shows are nearly getting as bad as the comic books they're when it comes to anybody staying dead.

It's even worse with Thawne. One of his monikers is "The Living Paradox", meaning he can't ever truly die. No matter how many times he got killed in the comics, he always came back somehow. 

So yeah, no point at all in trying to kill him. 

[statsgirl]

55 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Someone mentioned a cut scene where Felicity asks if it's okay before rushing forward - it's too bad they cut that - maybe that would have helped.  They probably cut a ton of things - maybe we'll see a lot of stuff when the cut scenes are released that will make it better.

They didn't cut Felicity asking Iris and Barry if it's okay, it's in there just before she asks Oliver if it's okay with him.  The big reaction shots of Barry and Iris to the suggestion were cut.

Here are some gifs courtesy of @Soulfire.  You can see Barry and Iris reacting in the background.

16 hours ago, Soulfire said:

 

 

 

(GIFs from here and here, among others.)

 

They look like they're okay with the idea. Barry's pulled out the big grin.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

Someone mentioned a cut scene where Felicity asks if it's okay before rushing forward - it's too bad they cut that - maybe that would have helped.  They probably cut a ton of things - maybe we'll see a lot of stuff when the cut scenes are released that will make it better.

Felicity did ask permission before she continued on. She interrupted and then the following.

 

Quote

Well then I pronounce you both

Wait! Wait. Wait, just one second. Um, if you guys don't mind I mean if you don't mind. Really if you don't mind, but would you marry us too? Will you marry me?

I thought I mean, I thought you didn't believe in marriage.

No, but I believe in you, and I believe that no matter what life throws at us our love can conquer it, married, unmarried. I love you. My greatest fear My greatest fear in life is losing you. - I -

Yes. Okay. -

Yeah. -

Yeah? I do. I do.

Uh, John, what do you say?

You kidding me, Oliver? I'm the guy for the past six years that's been trying to keep you two together. It's only fitting that I marry you. Okay. Vows? -

BOTH: No. - I mean, we can't do - better than them. - Defintely not.

We kind of did those fake vows when we had that fake wedding with that psychopath serial-killer archer lady.

I remember saying something along the lines of You're the very best part of me. Felicity, I'm a better human being Just because I've loved you.

Well, since we don't have any rings just yet. I'll skip right to the part where I say this, Oliver Jonas Queen, Felicity Megan Smoak, - Bartholomew Henry Allen, - Mm-hmm. and Iris Ann West I now pronounce you husband and wife. Please, kiss your brides. Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=dcs-legends-of-tomorrow-2016&episode=s03e0

 

Edited November 29, 2017 by catrox14

[InsertWordHere]

1 minute ago, statsgirl said:

They didn't cut Felicity asking Iris and Barry if it's okay

Thank you. I keep seeing this mentioned and I thought I was having memory problems because I clearly heard Felicity ask. Now, she didn't wait for an answer, or rather, the editor chose to focus more on Oliver and Diggle's answers over Iris and Barry's, and that sucks, but there was also time for Barry and Iris to object. No one would have blamed them for asking the other couple to wait, so I don't see any pressure on Barry and Iris to not protest if they disliked the idea.

[CabotCove]

Quote

 

I don't really see much of a hi-jacking after Barry basically kidnapped Dig to do his nuptials once he and Iris decided, "Screw it, let's get married right this fucking second before anything else can go wrong."  

 

Fair point, although some things are done for plot and not to be taken seriously.

Quote

 

I think Felicity and Oliver are good and functional together, even if they have a had a rough row to hoe to get to this point. 

 

To me they are not, I dont care about their marriage as I dont watch trash Arrow  anymore. Just wish they didn't drag down the crossovers. They can do whatever they want on their show, but when you got a crossover and audiences crossing over, you need to make the characters likable and respectful of other characters.

but each to their own, no big deal

 

Quote

Oliver and Felicity had poor behavior regarding Iris and Barry for all 4 episodes of the crossover - Barry and Iris were used as tools to prop Olicity up.  I hated it.  Period.  The narrative presented this as though there was NOTHING wrong with it - contrasting how the narrative played out for Barry/Iris in that funeral scene.

It sucks when they other characters are demeaned and  having O/F behave poorly in these crossovers, but the real loss is theirs though, they are only getting people to not check the show [Arrow]. Some who watch it, will be turned off and stop watching. .The crossover is supposed to be one big promotional tool and Arrow writers dont use it well. Its their funeral. 

Edited November 29, 2017 by HeroLeague

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, HeroLeague said:

To me they are not, I dont care about their marriage as I dont watch trash Arrow  anymore. Just wish they didn't drag down the crossovers.

When I look at the history of WestAllen they have just as many fits and starts as Olicity over their relationship.  I guess to me I don't see how either is really the 'Gold Standard' since they are 3 highly fallible imperfect humans and one highly fallible, imperfect meta human.

They are both messed up and good in their own ways.

Edited November 29, 2017 by catrox14
heh because Barry is super fallible not infallible! LOL

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, HeroLeague said:

To me they are not, I dont care about their marriage as I dont watch trash Arrow  anymore. Just wish they didn't drag down the crossovers. They can do whatever they want on their show, but when you got a crossover and audiences crossing over, you need to make the characters likable and respectful of other characters.

The thing is that you can't change the characterizations to make them "likeable" so that it's noticeable. Like to me this is really the first X over that I thought all the characters felt like they do in their respective shows of which I watch Arrow, SG and LoT regularly and The Flash intermittently.

[Trini]

19 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Felicity did ask permission before she continued on. She interrupted and then the following.

Quote

Well then I pronounce you both

Wait! Wait. Wait, just one second. Um, if you guys don't mind I mean if you don't mind. Really if you don't mind, but would you marry us too? Will you marry me?

I thought I mean, I thought you didn't believe in marriage.

No, but I believe in you, and I believe that no matter what life throws at us our love can conquer it, married, unmarried. I love you. My greatest fear My greatest fear in life is losing you. - I -

Yes. Okay. -

Yeah. -

Yeah? I do. I do.

Uh, John, what do you say?

You kidding me, Oliver? I'm the guy for the past six years that's been trying to keep you two together. It's only fitting that I marry you. Okay. Vows? -

BOTH: No. - I mean, we can't do - better than them. - Defintely not.

We kind of did those fake vows when we had that fake wedding with that psychopath serial-killer archer lady.

I remember saying something along the lines of You're the very best part of me. Felicity, I'm a better human being Just because I've loved you.

Well, since we don't have any rings just yet. I'll skip right to the part where I say this, Oliver Jonas Queen, Felicity Megan Smoak, - Bartholomew Henry Allen, - Mm-hmm. and Iris Ann West I now pronounce you husband and wife. Please, kiss your brides. Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=dcs-legends-of-tomorrow-2016&episode=s03e0

Yes, you notice how there are NO lines from Barry or Iris; they made the editing choice not to give them any say except silent approval. Of course they don't want to write anyone to look bad at their wedding (even though Felicity still comes off as rude), so no, they weren't going to have Barry or Iris tell them "No, you can't married with us, wait your turn".

There were just so many ways to make the scene better for everyone.

[statsgirl]

It may have been a writing choice rather than an editing choice not to give Barry and Iris any lines.   Since through the four episodes, five if you count Girls Night Out, Iris and Barry had been pushing Oliver and Felicity to get married, maybe the writers assumed that the audience would think that they were okay with the joint ceremony.

[Aeryn13]

I enjoyed the Legends portion of the event. The writers certainly have the best handle on how to bring in so many characters and give everyone a moment to shine.

Stein`s death was really sad, I teared up when Jax went to tell Clarissa. Though I was not a fan of super-lampshading Stein`s exit through the crossover with the retirement remarks. 

Barry letting Reverse Flash go like that was stupidly stupid in ways I`m just fed up with. Are the Legends gonna have to mop up again? They had to content with Thawne last year, now it`s Grodd - conveniently another villain Barry had to let go - and possibly back to Thawne again? 

I thought the wedding scene was a bit unfortunate. Felicity should have asked as soon as Diggle arrived and they explained to him why he was there. I mean, in that context, an impromptu wedding for both couples would have been fine. But cutting in right after the vows and before "I pronounce you..." did seem rude. I like both couples and I think both people are good for each other.

West!Allen are a good pairing but whenever they trot out the "gold standard" and "perfect" monikers, I roll my eyes. Nothing puts me off faster than hearing/reading that, even when I like something, that makes me like it less. That said, I found Iris ballett story darling. It sounded lke a cute childhood couple story and less like Joe`s toast of "my dream scenario was my son marrying my daughter".  

The entire Nazi plot was weak and the resolution was so-so. In the end, the crossover was way more about emotional throughlines for the characters and the plot didn`t hold together as well.   

[DeadZeus]

2 hours ago, phoenics said:

Maybe they thought the first fight between them was enough?  There were a lot of ways this crossover could have been improved though so I get being irritated that there wasn't a more "main event" feeling to Oliver vs Fuhrer.

hmm.. Just rewatched, dno how i missed it, i can't remembering being distracted during that scene.. in any case... I don't think there is anything cool about it. Oliver and the Fuhrer had literally no presence during the final action scene, and Oliver doesn't really beat him... Just a straight surprise Arrow shot cuz the dude was distracted... Could have been way better IMO

Overall liked the cross over though.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

Yes, you notice how there are NO lines from Barry or Iris; they made the editing choice not to give them any say except silent approval. Of course they don't want to write anyone to look bad at their wedding (even though Felicity still comes off as rude), so no, they weren't going to have Barry or Iris tell them "No, you can't married with us, wait your turn".

There were just so many ways to make the scene better for everyone.

Sure there were many ways to make it better be it a writing, editing, directing choice, which wasn't the point of my post. I was responding to the repeated incorrect assertion that Felicity did not seek the permission and approval of her friends to be married along side them.

[Mellowyellow]

I rewatched all the Olicity and Ray Palmer bits and they made me so happy. So so so happy. 

I'm thrilled for Ray this crossover 

He wasn't  all over it but he had the best entrance, kicked ass and had some lovely moments. 

I was annoyed last year because I had been looking forward to seeing him and he just kind of drifted around. 

I even got my little Raylicity callback that no one cares about but me. 

One very happy camper here.

[CabotCove]

Quote

 

. Whatever "girl power" or #feminism the Arrow and Flash writers were attempting got stomped to the trash the second Amaya and Zari showed up.  Queens.

Those 2 are amazing together, the whole Legends team is

Quote

 

It's ok to be critical of the characters while still liking them. I really like Barry, but think he was a dope for letting Thawne go. 

Agree, it can actually help the characters be better. Fans who wont allow any criticism they are not doing their own favorites any favor. Sure there is absurd criticism out there, but but there is also fair criticism. 

Quote

 

I even got my little Raylicity callback that no one cares about but me. 

 

I noticed..and of course Ray was awesome.

Edited November 29, 2017 by HeroLeague

[phoenics]

2 hours ago, johntfs said:

  It'd be nice to have a female minority someone who was a regular on a show, dating another character who was white or minority and also imperfect all at the same time.

Iris was that character in S1 of the Flash and she was dragged to hell and back.  Iris wasn't allowed to be flawed, angry, sassy or anything other than kickass and perfect.  So I mourn that with you because it would be nice to see a minority character that writers could write as flawed - but sadly this fandom just doesn't allow for that. And I cannot handle going through the rabid racism and misogyny leveled at Iris/CP during S1.  What an awful time.

3 hours ago, Miss Dee said:

I'd love to get your perspective on Legends, @phoenics. We've liked a lot of the same shows, I think, so I'm hopeful you'd like this one too. Well, once you get past Season 1 anyway!

 

I've caught a few eps here and there but most of the references are lost on me because I didn't watch S1.  I only know the characters from my comics knowledge or their appearances on other shows.  Maybe I should catch up.  I seem to have a lot of time on my hands lately.

[phoenics]

2 hours ago, InsertWordHere said:

Thank you. I keep seeing this mentioned and I thought I was having memory problems because I clearly heard Felicity ask. Now, she didn't wait for an answer, or rather, the editor chose to focus more on Oliver and Diggle's answers over Iris and Barry's, and that sucks, but there was also time for Barry and Iris to object. No one would have blamed them for asking the other couple to wait, so I don't see any pressure on Barry and Iris to not protest if they disliked the idea.

Ohhhh.  Maybe I thought there was a version someone mentioned was cut where she actually waited for a response rather than what happened?  

What was left in didn't really play out to me like she was seriously asking for permission because she didn't give them much of a chance to say no - plus it's really awkward to stop someone in moments like that.  It's kind of like when someone spears some food off of your plate and goes "were you going to eat that?"  It doesn't really give you an easy way to say yes without you now looking like the rude one.

[Trini]

There were several missteps, but overall this crossover worked better than last year's, and I mostly enjoyed it. I think the "movie" format worked. With so many characters, some were always going to get shortchanged, but it was odd how little they used the Flash cast - especially Barry who was one of the leads and was involved in the main action throughout all 4 episodes.

So I guess The Ray series is going to take place before the events in this crossover?

[Sakura12]

I think the treatment of any of the female characters is a Flash issue. Legends is a show about a bunch of flawed people including their minority characters. We just lost Stein but we did have an older Jewish male super hero, a black female superhero, a black male superhero, a bisexual female superhero and now a Muslim super hero. 

[phoenics]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

It may have been a writing choice rather than an editing choice not to give Barry and Iris any lines.   Since through the four episodes, five if you count Girls Night Out, Iris and Barry had been pushing Oliver and Felicity to get married, maybe the writers assumed that the audience would think that they were okay with the joint ceremony.

But this is kinda my whole issue with it.  Barry and Iris were used for all of the crossover scenes to push Olicity.  That's what I didn't like and it became so much worse when Barry and Iris' moment got overshadowed by Felicity's behavior at the end - and also Oliver proposing at their RD.

I feel like some don't understand that it wasn't just that one thing - it was the combination of all of it that removed Barry and Iris from a narrative that should have been about them and instead used them to push the Olicity narrative at their own expense.  B/I weren't given any narrative priority.  Their role in all of this was to serve as props.  Not to mention the problematic part.

It was literally this:

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I feel like some don't understand that it wasn't just that one thing - it was the combination of all of it that removed Barry and Iris from a narrative that should have been about them

I think this might have been a fail of promotion also. The WestAllen wedding was promoted as THE big crossover event. And it ended up the McGuffin more or less. I get not wanting to spoil too much but if they really wanted the emotional story to be that of another couple, maybe they should have made that clear in the promo material. Not everyone reads spoilers.   

[Lantern7]

1. I reckon Iris had already given up on a traditional wedding at that point, so an inpromptu wedding and their friends married at the same time probably didn't phase her. She probably did have a "SHIT! I forgot about Dad!!" moment five minutes later. But I'm betting she was crossing her fingers throughout . . . not lying to Barry, but hoping and praying the Double Nazis of Earth-XX wouldn't show up. Barry could run, but I didn't see any arrows around Oliver.

2. Overall question not pertaining to LoT: The invasion from Earth-X was because Overgirl (not Overwoman?) needed Kara's heart, right? Does that mean that it was Kara's fault for going to Earth-1 with Alex? If she decided to stay home and watch TV, Earth-X invades Earth-Supergirl (I forgot the number). You can imagine the Nazis peering into periscope. "She's gone!! Where did she-? Oh, that Earth. Well, we did plan on fighting her cousin, but I think a few dozen lesser heroes would be easier."

Also: no meeting of Sara and Dinah? No denouement with Mick and Caitlin? I'm not complaining, but a publisher could probably do a prose novel and expand on everything.

ETA for 3. I'm guessing that Barry didn't want to fuck with time anymore than he had in the past, so he let Thrawne live. I think the implication was that this Reverse Flash had Wells' face, so he came from the time he was with Barry or before. When he usurped the identity, I think it was to the bone, as opposed to whatever gizmo Harry used in the past. Thrawne goes "home," torments Barry, winks out of existence when Eddie kills himself, and then the Legends end him for good. Maybe. I'm filing this under "Never Say Never," meaning that I don't think that Merlyn died from a landmine, even though the character is a shitweasel and unworthy of being played by John Barrowman.

[NumberCruncher]

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think this might have been a fail of promotion also. The WestAllen wedding was promoted as THE big crossover event. And it ended up the McGuffin more or less. I get not wanting to spoil too much but if they really wanted the emotional story to be that of another couple, maybe they should have made that clear in the promo material. Not everyone reads spoilers.   

You raise a very interesting point.  The showrunners literally have zero control over how the network chooses to promote the show--Guggenheim is especially vocal about that.  Clearly the network did the fans no favors here by focusing so much on something that wasn't really the main theme of the crossover.  I tend to think that's usually because they didn't want to give too much plot away and be spoilery.  This is why I never rely on promos to tell me what CW episodes are really about because 9 times out of 10 it's something different. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

7 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

In this case, I really can't see Felicity doing anything wrong because their whole arc throughout the crossover was leading up to it. The writers set them up to do it at the very last second, and yes, with Iris & Barry, who were perfectly happy to share their unplanned wedding day with two of their closest friends — friends they'd been encouraging to take the plunge since the beginning. In that way, the writers also set up the payoff for Iris & Barry's crossover arc — which apparently was just to get married — to include Oliver & Felicity. Did I want this to happen this way? God no, but I thought there was enough of a setup there for what eventually did happen.

But folks will always find something wrong and blame "Fefe" for everything so, you know what, I don't care. My ship got married after six years and that's six years of us being told we would never get here "Because Comics." So I'm just gonna celebrate!

This is kind of how I feel too. Yes, in real life weddings turn out to be more about the bride and the groom having the spotlight, about expensive dresses, flowers, fancy dinner and so on and the people around them are careful to act accordingly; that’s the part of them I don’t really care for. Here, with both couples spontaneously wanting to get married on the spot, after a funeral, without friends and family (near some vomit, ew) because they just wanted to be together and didn’t care about anything else I find it amusing to talk about wedding etiquette. In real life I would but considering all that happened to both couples during the crossover I find this, slightly messy, but heartfelt ceremony fitting. Before watching I would have said I was for two separate weddings (in their midseason finale maybe) but it was a beautiful way to end what was essentially a movie. Also someone on the other board said how they ended it with two couples that wouldn’t have been able to marry in a Nazi world getting their happy ending. That for me puts things in perspective.

[statsgirl]

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

Iris was that character in S1 of the Flash and she was dragged to hell and back.  Iris wasn't allowed to be flawed, angry, sassy or anything other than kickass and perfect.  So I mourn that with you because it would be nice to see a minority character that writers could write as flawed - but sadly this fandom just doesn't allow for that. And I cannot handle going through the rabid racism and misogyny leveled at Iris/CP during S1.  What an awful time.

I heard that happened although I have never encountered it myself.  I suspect it comes from the same part of the fandom who calls Felicity FeFe.  If you have a look at the Arrow boards, the common post is that Iris has been ill done by as a character and deserves better.  (Deserves better than Barry but that's just IMO)

It seems to me that Kreisburg has no interest in anything but White Boy Pain.  Or maybe just Boy Pain.  Iris has no role on The Flash other than to prop Barry.  Candice Patton keeps asking for something of Iris as a reporter but there are no plans to show it.  Ever.  Joe prioritized Barry always, refusing to let Eddie even propose to Iris because he wanted Barry to marry her.  Joe lied to Iris all her life about her mother still being alive and when Wally appeared, he got put ahead of Iris.  Joe even asked Barry's permission to let Wally move into the house and never thought to ask Iris.  Even during Flashpoint when Barry wasn't The Flash and she had all the opportunity to really be her own person, all Iris got to do was prop Wally.

Now there's Ralph Dibney, an utterly revolting and boring character who identifies women by their measurements rather than their names taking up room that should have been given to Iris.  Kreisburg did the same to Supergirl with Mon El the quintessential white frat boy instead of giving story time to J'onn and James.

Iris and Caitlin deserve much better writing than they get on The Flash. They deserve the kind of writing that the female characters on LoT get.  As much as we complain about it, the women on Arrow get much better writing than the women on The Flash do. I hope things get better now that Kreisburg is gone.

57 minutes ago, phoenics said:

But this is kinda my whole issue with it.  Barry and Iris were used for all of the crossover scenes to push Olicity.  That's what I didn't like and it became so much worse when Barry and Iris' moment got overshadowed by Felicity's behavior at the end - and also Oliver proposing at their RD.

I feel like some don't understand that it wasn't just that one thing - it was the combination of all of it that removed Barry and Iris from a narrative that should have been about them and instead used them to push the Olicity narrative at their own expense.  B/I weren't given any narrative priority.  Their role in all of this was to serve as props.  Not to mention the problematic part.

I was far more offended at the RD by Joe's speech making Iris and Barry's wedding about himself than Oliver's quietly proposing in the corner.

If you thought the narrative for the crossover episodes was Barry and Iris Get Married, I completely understand your disappointment. Tbh, the Olicity fandom were pretty upset when the news of a double wedding leaked because after five years, Olicity deserves better than to have to ride on the coattails of another couple, one who gets the Save The Day notifications and spa day and the rehearsal dinner and the big church ceremony with friends and family.  I'm sure people who watch for the fights and costumes weren't happy either.

What the crossover ended up being was about another alien invasion, although better than last year's, plus emotional arc for three of the four shows:  Barry and Iris' wedding gets disrupted but they love and have faith in each other; Oliver and Felicity finally are on the same page and ready to move on; and Stein's death and everyone's reaction to it.  (Supergirl got shafted again but it really doesn't fit well into the storylines for Earth 1.) 

In terms of storytime Barry/Iris' relationship seemed to me to get as much time as Oliver/Felicity's did.  In the final conversation with Kara and Alex, it was only about the Barry and Iris getting married.  After they left, the conversation was still about their wedding, as it was when Barry kidnapped Diggle.  I don't have access to a recording right now but if the Olicity part of that scene was more than 30 seconds I'd be surprised.

In the end, both couples ended up in an equal place, kind of married and happy.  To get there, the Flash wedding took up most of the Supergirl hour and it seems that it was pretty equal for the other three episodes.  If anyone has a right to complain about the crossover, I think it's the Supergirl fans because only Kara got decent time in the four episodes.

Edited November 29, 2017 by statsgirl

[AudienceofOne]

Hahaha. I told you they'd have Barry and Iris marry on LoT. That's hilarious.

[Starfish35]

I think they chose several relationships/people to focus on throughout the crossover, and everyone else kind of played support.  With Arrow, it was Oliver and Felicity.  With Flash, it was Barry and Iris.  With Supergirl, it was Kara and Alex.  With Legends, it was Stein and Jax.  

Sara was there being her usual badass self in the fight scenes, but she didn't have a storyline of her own - she was there to kick ass and support Alex's story.  Mick was there for comic relief.  Pretty much everyone else played support to a greater or lesser extent. 

Edited November 29, 2017 by Starfish35

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

I've caught a few eps here and there but most of the references are lost on me because I didn't watch S1.  I only know the characters from my comics knowledge or their appearances on other shows.  Maybe I should catch up.  I seem to have a lot of time on my hands lately.

Season One of LoT is... less than great.  It's a very... season one effort and the characters don't fully click, though you can see the potential.  By the second episode of Season Two everyone's shit is well and truly together.  One of the best things about Legends by this point is that every characters clicks with every other character.  If anything this is magnified by what I've seen of Season Three.

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

We just lost Stein but we did have an older Jewish male super hero, a black female superhero, a black male superhero, a bisexual female superhero and now a Muslim super hero. 

Well, at this point we have still have a younger Jewish superhero (Ray), along with a black female superhero (Amaya), a bisexual white female superhero (Sara) and a Persian Muslim female superhero (Zari).  Meanwhile we appear to be adding a mixed-race bisexual superhero in Leo.

[Starfish35]

Has it ever been confirmed or even suggested in-show that Ray Palmer (as opposed to The Ray) is Jewish? Or is it just assumed because he was in the comics?

As for Leo, I have my doubts about him sticking around long-term.

Edited November 30, 2017 by Starfish35

[Chicago Redshirt]

The main problem in S1, IMO, was the weakness of Vandal Savage as a villain and a concept. S1 was characterized by Rip Hunter's man-pain about losing his wife and kid to Savage as he builds up an army and conquers much of the future. Vandal Savage, whose powers consists of not being killable permanently, being smarter than most because he's lived so long, and being good with knives and other weapons. 

With a frigging time-and-spaceship, seems like it would be pretty easy to eliminate the problem. Go back in time and catch him unaware. Then put him a vat of concrete and launch it into the sun in some distant galaxy. Rinse and repeat as necessary. 

Seasons 2 and 3 have eliminated the angst and have worked much better as a mostly lighthearted romp through fixing time.

[statsgirl]

I thought they kept trying to go back in time and eliminate Savage but it never worked.  Wasn't the crossover that year one of those times?

[Starfish35]

2 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Wasn't the crossover that year one of those times?

No, the crossover was pre-series, because Legends started midseason.  And the only Legends characters were Savage and the Hawks - Rip and the Waverider hadn't shown up yet. The only time travel was Barry's.

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I thought they kept trying to go back in time and eliminate Savage but it never worked.  Wasn't the crossover that year one of those times?

The thing is that they never really really tried the way a rational person would do if they had access to a time ship and basic information about where Savage was and what he was doing.

By Rip's time, there undoubtedly would be numerous places where Savage popped up as a known quantity. Indeed, because one of the conceits was that Savage had killed two of the Legends repeatedly over the years something like 200 times to have them reincarnate and one of the Legends remembered his reincarnations, they should have had like 200 points in time to go to ambush Savage. Not to mention going back far enough to get him before he got the ability to regenerate and what not. 

It hurts to think about. 

[johntfs]

4 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

No denouement with Mick and Caitlin?

Why does there need to be a denouement for them right now?  They've met.  He's aware of (and attracted to) her alter ego.  That's enough for now.  There's always later in the season or next season when Mick and KF chill out to get hot and heavy and then a naked Caitlin wakes up in bed with Mick.  Cue shame and horror played for laughs.  Or maybe not if Caitlin starts to own her tendency to hang out with "bad boys."  Mick is at least an improvement on Zoom and Savitar.

Edited November 30, 2017 by johntfs

[tennisgurl]

I recently watched some of the first season for the first time in awhile (I plan on watching the rest with my sister soon), and, honestly, its not that bad. The real issue in the first season was the whole Savage and the Hawks story line, which took up TONS of time in the narrative, a lot of which had big plot holes, forced characters to act stupid or out of character, and featured the least interesting characters who were also the worst actors on the show. However, when you take all that out, theres really a lot to like in the first season. There is still a lot of great character stuff (I forgot how much I liked Snart/Ray interaction), and some glimpses of whats to come in later seasons, like the wild west episode with Jonah Hex, which was more fun than angsty. So, while season 1 is definitely shaky and has quite a few faults (bad love triangles, lame villain) and the characters weren't quite as complex as they would become later, its not painful to watch by any means, and there is still some good actions, funny lines, and solid performances. 

Seriously, give it a try. I would say to watch season 1, if for no other reason than to see the growth of the characters, and then watch the real fun start in season 2. Season two gets rid of the crappier aspects of the show, and just embraced the concept of a time traveling super hero team, without all the melodrama. But still, even the first season is worth the watch. 

[phoenics]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

I heard that happened although I have never encountered it myself.  I suspect it comes from the same part of the fandom who calls Felicity FeFe.  If you have a look at the Arrow boards, the common post is that Iris has been ill done by as a character and deserves better.  (Deserves better than Barry but that's just IMO)

It seems to me that Kreisburg has no interest in anything but White Boy Pain.  Or maybe just Boy Pain.  Iris has no role on The Flash other than to prop Barry.  Candice Patton keeps asking for something of Iris as a reporter but there are no plans to show it.  Ever.  Joe prioritized Barry always, refusing to let Eddie even propose to Iris because he wanted Barry to marry her.  Joe lied to Iris all her life about her mother still being alive and when Wally appeared, he got put ahead of Iris.  Joe even asked Barry's permission to let Wally move into the house and never thought to ask Iris.  Even during Flashpoint when Barry wasn't The Flash and she had all the opportunity to really be her own person, all Iris got to do was prop Wally.

Now there's Ralph Dibney, an utterly revolting and boring character who identifies women by their measurements rather than their names taking up room that should have been given to Iris.  Kreisburg did the same to Supergirl with Mon El the quintessential white frat boy instead of giving story time to J'onn and James.

Iris and Caitlin deserve much better writing than they get on The Flash. They deserve the kind of writing that the female characters on LoT get.  As much as we complain about it, the women on Arrow get much better writing than the women on The Flash do. I hope things get better now that Kreisburg is gone.

I was far more offended at the RD by Joe's speech making Iris and Barry's wedding about himself than Oliver's quietly proposing in the corner.

If you thought the narrative for the crossover episodes was Barry and Iris Get Married, I completely understand your disappointment. Tbh, the Olicity fandom were pretty upset when the news of a double wedding leaked because after five years, Olicity deserves better than to have to ride on the coattails of another couple, one who gets the Save The Day notifications and spa day and the rehearsal dinner and the big church ceremony with friends and family.  I'm sure people who watch for the fights and costumes weren't happy either.

What the crossover ended up being was about another alien invasion, although better than last year's, plus emotional arc for three of the four shows:  Barry and Iris' wedding gets disrupted but they love and have faith in each other; Oliver and Felicity finally are on the same page and ready to move on; and Stein's death and everyone's reaction to it.  (Supergirl got shafted again but it really doesn't fit well into the storylines for Earth 1.) 

In terms of storytime Barry/Iris' relationship seemed to me to get as much time as Oliver/Felicity's did.  In the final conversation with Kara and Alex, it was only about the Barry and Iris getting married.  After they left, the conversation was still about their wedding, as it was when Barry kidnapped Diggle.  I don't have access to a recording right now but if the Olicity part of that scene was more than 30 seconds I'd be surprised.

In the end, both couples ended up in an equal place, kind of married and happy.  To get there, the Flash wedding took up most of the Supergirl hour and it seems that it was pretty equal for the other three episodes.  If anyone has a right to complain about the crossover, I think it's the Supergirl fans because only Kara got decent time in the four episodes.

I said as much earlier in the thread - several of us did - that I also thought Olicity got shortchanged too - but that was lost in the avalanche of posts responding to me saying that.  I also mentioned that I thought the promotion of the crossovers for the most part was a classic bait and switch. Bait with Westallen and then switch with Olicity.  From what I saw on Twitter, a lot of Flash fans were really upset about that because they might not have watched.

I'm happy for Olicity fans - but I really hated how the writers did that with them and Westallen.  The David Robinson pic I posted was exactly what happened imo.

 

Oh and Kreisberg was fired - today I think.

Edited November 30, 2017 by phoenics

[phoenics]

33 minutes ago, johntfs said:

Why does there need to be a denouement for them right now?  They've met.  He's aware of (and attracted to) her alter ego.  That's enough for now.  There's always later in the season or next season when Mick and KF cchill out to get hot and heavy and then a naked Caitlin wakes up in bed with Mick.  Cue shame and horror played for laughs.  Or maybe not if Caitlin starts to own her tendency to hang out with "bad boys."  Mick is at least an improvement on Zoom and Savitar.

Just coming here to say - I really, really hope they don't do this as a storyline.  It's gross and takes consent to a whole other level.  Like can someone with multiple personality disorder actually give consent?

[TwistedandBored]

Man, I can't believe there are literally pages and pages of a 2 minutes double in a crossover that had Nazis as the bad guys. 

I mean would I have liked the execution of the double wedding to have been different then it was present then yeah, I would have loved WestAllen and Olicity to marry at a different time and on their own show. However, that didn't happen and I am okay with it because at least my couples are married. Each had a whole wedding set that got ruined so this simple ceremony was enough for me.   

[Trini]

It's just that marriage is a big milestone; it should be more than 'well at least they're legal now, so, ...'

There were several mistakes made with both couples, that I'm not going to re-hash.

Edited November 30, 2017 by Trini

[Miss Dee]

3 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Just coming here to say - I really, really hope they don't do this as a storyline.  It's gross and takes consent to a whole other level.  Like can someone with multiple personality disorder actually give consent?

I hear you. The good news is that of all the current Arrowverse shows, Legends is the least likely to do this. I'm not sure Phil Klemmer gets enough credit for his showrunning. Legends has the least problematic treatment of its minority groups; it has a very diverse writing room, if pics are anything to go by; and it shines in its treatment of their women characters and their agency. Klemmer appears to be a very soft-spoken and unassuming person, and what he has to say about Legends it seems you can take to the bank. I have a lot more trust in him than I do the other show runners.

That said, I don't mind Mick and Caitlin/KF ending up in bed together (I know you're all shocked to hear me say that; LOOK I AM NOT A UNREASONABLE ATOMWAVE SHIPPER OKAY), because I know if it's the Legends writers doing it there will be no consent issues. Caitlyn and Killer Frost (if still separate) will know exactly what she is doing; and whatever faults have been attributed to Mick - and they are legion - sexual aggression or underhanded ness has *never* been one of them. He's too direct for that.