Godless - General Discussion

[LittleIggy]

Truckee is cool. So is the Marshall and his ‘stache. I love Sam Waterston, and it’s great to see him in a western.

Roy’s horse whispering was intriguing. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

"As long as y'all just keep to yourselves ya'll just be just fine."
"So we keep being told."

And then they were slaughtered. Good lord. All the needless death over one man's personal vendetta (and pure insanity).

That gunfight in La Belle was best thing I've seen since any of the big GoT battles. The director should win some awards.

So did Griffin wear that clerical collar so no one would shoot him? Because I don't understand why Alice or Mary Agnes didn't kill him when they had the chance. Of course, that would've headed off the final dramatic showdown between him and Roy.

It's a wonder to me anyone survived the days of the Old West. It was pretty easy to go around shooting people on a whim but it was also pretty easy to get shot out of the blue.

[Kel Varnsen]

On 26/11/2017 at 8:00 PM, Bec said:

The line-reading on Truckee's "Goddamn you, Roy Goode! Goddamn you all the way to hell!" was so, so bad. I was about to laugh at that, but Roy's reaction broke my heart into a million pieces. 

That was bad, like Jerry gets mad about something on Seinfeld bad.

It is funny I was starting to wonder before this what set Roy off and made him decide to split off from Frank's gang. The letter from his brother who actually made it to California made total sense though. And it was probably for the best that he didn't read it at the time since that would have made him feel even worse.

And I was kind of happy that Sister Lucy's orphanage type place turned out to actually be somewhere nice that took care of kids. I have totally been waiting for the reveal that something very evil went on there that drove Roy to Frank.

Also I had no idea there was a hot German speaking artist lady living in La Belle. Was a nice resolution to Mary Agnes's relationship troubles though. Although fucking Pinkertons!

[LittleIggy]

On 11/26/2017 at 0:16 AM, saoirse said:

Well, shit. I got too excited there, too soon, didn't I? DAMMIT SHOW!

Yeah, I hated that he got killed off so soon. Dang!

Loved Truckee getting over his fear of horses. Granny was delighted too.

Hate the dick who abuses his horse. Frank can take care of him.

On 12/18/2017 at 11:43 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I’m American and I have always heard primer (one M) pronounced with a long I (like miner), whether it’s a primer book or a primer coat of paint. Primmer (two Ms), the comparative form of the adjective prim, is pronounced with a short I (like dimmer).

I’m American, and have always heard the book primer pronounced “primmer.”

[ElectricBoogaloo]

On 11/26/2017 at 5:00 PM, Bec said:

The line-reading on Truckee's "Goddamn you, Roy Goode! Goddamn you all the way to hell!" was so, so bad. I was about to laugh at that, but Roy's reaction broke my heart into a million pieces.

Same here. It was just so fake and bad that I was rolling my eyes (to be fair to the actor who played Truckee, it's also a horrible line so I put a lot of the blame on the writers) but then Roy looked so crushed anyway.

I also laughed at the way Alice pronounced Atascadero because it sounded like the type of awkwardly literal pronunciation you get from Siri.

I loved that even though Mary was jealous of Martha in the previous episodes, she did not hesitate to warn her about the Pinkerton who was looking for her. Loved the three of them all pointing guns at each other until Marta shot him. Mary's uncomfortable "Well, I'm just going to go now" afterward had me cracking up.

When they showed the flashbacks of Roy and his brother with Lucy, I thought that maybe she had told the brother to leave because Roy would be better off without him at the little shack. It seems like he left of his own accord though.

I was rolling my eyes when the other guys in Frank's gang were picking on Roy and then accusing him of being high and mighty and in a bad mood. Yes, grabbing his letter and threatening to read it to everyone else is Roy being in a bad mood, not you being an asshole.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I feel like I should go back to rewatch the entire shoot out from beginning to end so that I can count how many of Frank's men I saw shot. He supposedly had a group of 30 but it seemed like the women of La Belle shot a lot more than 30 of them and then there were STILL eight more on their horses next to Frank!

On 12/9/2017 at 4:10 PM, Chaos Theory said:

The only complaint I have is the same one I’ve had from the start the ladies lives never given the same importance as the men’s.  Even the last few moments were more about Goode riding off into the sunset then what happened to the ladies which i’m More interested in.  

Same here. I thought the show would be more about the women in this town but the show seemed to focus mostly on the men's stories. Alice and Mary are the only females who got a decent amount of screentime. Although I enjoyed seeing Roy's journey, I feel like the show had so much opportunity to tell the stories of all the women in the town - where they came from before La Belle, their lives before the mining accident, and how they changed after their husbands died. Some of my favorite scenes were the women working together, whether it was physically working together to build the church or working together to decide how to deal with the mining company.

Merritt Wever was so amazing in this role. I knew her mostly from Nurse Jackie where she played a totally different type of character (optimistic and cheery) so it was really nice to see her play something that was almost the complete opposite.

Whitey, you sweet dumbass. I was sad that he got himself killed. I thought some of the characters we knew might die in the big gunfight, but I didn't think Whitey would be the first to die and I certainly didn't think it would be as soon as he opened the door.

One of the interviews I read said that this was intended to be only one season so I'm fine with the way things ended.

Edited December 28, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo
Typo

[Kel Varnsen]

That was the most badass thing I have seen on my tv in a long time. That shoot out was crazy good. And even though Frank's gang was dumb (like standing out in the open) could kind of buy it, because like was said most weren't  trained and probably drunk. Plus their guard wouldn't be up because the town was just full of a bunch of women. Glad that one of those asshole twin brothers was taken out first. 

Sad to see Whitey go but with a shoot out like that you have ro have some main characters killed or it is just lame. Wish the woman who owned the hotel had shot that bastard newsman at the end.

My favourite bit was probably Roy tossing his rifle to that guy then shooting him as he caught it. The only thing that was too cheesy was Roy and Frank's  shoot out at the end. But I am not sure how else to really end their story.

As for the music, I am pretty sure that during the slow motion part after the shoot out, the fiddle music was a slowed down version of the "Girls of La Belle" song the ladies sang on top of the bar.

On 24/11/2017 at 8:33 PM, Cthulhudrew said:

The Buffalo Soldiers at Blackdom? Eliminated in short order, in spite of how fearsome they were constantly reputed to be. They didn't end up coming to help save the day

That worked for me. The women of La Belle kicking ass on their own was way more enjoyable that a group of mysterious super badasses from outside of town coming in to save the day would have been.

On 04/12/2017 at 7:03 AM, Bec said:

As much as I would love for Alice (and Truckee and Iyovi) to have left La Belle with Roy, he's going to be hiding his real identity for the rest of his life if he doesn't want to be arrested and hung for what he did in his past criminal life. So it would be risky for them and for him to be spending that money from the train robbery together. If they do that, they could be considered accessories to his crimes if he's ever caught.

I imagine that assuming a new identity in the 1880s wasn't too difficult. It is not like photo ID was a thing back then. The best they could do was those poorly drawn wanted posters.  And Roy was an orphan who didn't really have a real job or fixed address so records of his life would be minimal. On top of that newspaper accounts quote a lawman saying he is dead. So who would make any kind of assumption that the person they meet might be Roy Goode?

On 26/12/2017 at 10:44 AM, Joimiaroxeu said:

It's a wonder to me anyone survived the days of the Old West. It was pretty easy to go around shooting people on a whim but it was also pretty easy to get shot out of the blue.

My understanding is that the Old West wasn't nearly as violent as movies. Part of the reason Wild Bill Hickok was so famous was because shoot outs were rare enough that his were newsworthy

[LittleIggy]

That letter Roy has is from his brother in California, isn’t it. 

Did all of the smallpox afflicted people die naturally or did Frank help them on there way?

[Duke Silver]

I remain (irrationally?) pissed that the horse died because of Truckee going off doing whatever he was doing because he was throwing a pouty.  It's likely just a reaction arising from generally disliking/feeling icky about kids in show biz.  Kids on tv/in movies just bugs.  Whatever.

Likewise, initially I was disappointed with the abrupt ending of the story w/ all those hanging plot points, but I can accept a show that was nicely done not tying up everything wrapped in a bow at the end.

[LittleIggy]

Aw, Whitey! Dang!

Did the badass German lady survive? 

I would like to have seen those Quicksilver assholes tied up naked to a tree! You go, Maggie!

I thought for sure that Frank was herding those children after the shoot-out. Freaked me out for a minute.

[Kel Varnsen]

14 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

I thought for sure that Frank was herding those children after the shoot-out. Freaked me out for a minute.

When Frank disappeared towards the end of the shoot out, I really thought he had figured out that the kids were in the mine shaft and was going to go fire bomb it or take them hostage.

From what I have been able to read this will be a one season only thing which is too bad. I would love to see a season 2, especially one that just focuses on La Belle and how those women are rebuilding. Many of the buildings probably burnt to the ground and many women would probably  have some major ptsd. Plus i would love a scene where Mary Agnes tells those Quicksilver assholes their deal is off because they failed to provide their promised security.

It would also be hilarious and awesome for La Belle to get a reputation as being the town of women that took out Frank Griffin's gang, and seeing how the residents dealt with that reputation.

[moonshine71]

On 11/30/2017 at 4:53 AM, MissLucas said:

It took me an embarrassing long time to realize that this is the second time I see Thomas Brodie-Sangster trying to woo a WOC by learning to play an instrument. But with Christmas and therefore 'Love Actually' around the corner it finally clicked.

I actually stopped to check if it was Olivia Olsen playing Louise, Jessica Sula looks a little bit like her. One of my favorite meaningless facts is that after Love, Actually; Sangster and Olsen went on to voice love interests Ferb and Vannessa Doofenschmirtz on Phineus and Ferb.

[UsernameFatigue]

Eh. I enjoyed the series mostly, up until the last episode. Killing everyone in that little town before they got to LaBelle, was, no pun intended, overkill. Frank sitting on his horse in the middle of the street untouched, while bullets rang past him and those around him fell - ridiculous. Yes, I know he was not meant to die there and then (as he kept telling us) but ridiculous non the less.

But my biggest quibble is with Roy leaving for California alone. And yes I know, series these days are never ended with everything tied up in a nice bow. But there is no reason that Alice and Truckee could not have gone with him. (Not sure if Grandma would go. At least I assume she was Truckee's grandma?). Alice always talked about going back to Boston so she had no love for the place. The final straw for me was Bill going to Alice's ranch and Roy telling him to take care of them. I thought Bill was going to be blind in 6 months? So Alice will be stuck taking care of him? And his two kids? I hope Alice leaves and goes somewhere she actually wants to be. 

Edited December 31, 2017 by UsernameFatigue

[iMonrey]

I'm about halfway through this series but I thought the first episode was actually pretty weak. I didn't know what was going on until the end when Sam Waterston started narrating the flashback from the beginning of the episode. There were too many character introductions without any connecting dots. Overall the narrative just felt unnecessarily complicated. I long for the good old days when you could sit down and watch a show, or a movie, that started at the beginning and worked its way organically to the end. All this time jumping crap just feels like the writer thinks himself more clever than he actually is. Write a good story and tell it in a linear, straight-forward way. If the story is interesting enough you don't need to get cute or "artsy" with your format. I worry that the success of Westworld will encourage more of that crap.

[iMonrey]

I didn't get the thing with the arm and the bees. Was that Frank's arm? How did it get there? If it wasn't his then whose arm was it? Why bees and not flies?

[iMonrey]

Quote

I don't believe Alice's abusers were the Paiutes but either warring tribes or white men disguised as tribe members.

I got the impression they were from some other tribe, like maybe Cheyenne? When Bill was talking to the other native American in a previous episode didn't he ask him if he was Cheyenne? 

[iMonrey]

Quote

 They eliminate the big bad obstacle, Alice is ready to sell the ranch and leave, Roy has a big bag of money and an invitation to California, and instead of setting off together they just go their separate ways because ...it’s a western and it has to end with a man alone on a horse? I honestly don’t know, that made zero sense to me.

Me neither. My gut told me they ended it that way to leave the door open for a second season. But if this is going to be the only season, it felt unfinished. And somebody should have killed Grigg for bringing this all upon them. With him out of the way there's nobody left to come looking for Roy Goode and no reason for him to leave in the first place. I really didn't understand why he even had to go. 

I also found it very unsatisfying that we spent seven hours listening to Frank say he'd seen his own death and knew how it would go just to have no payoff with that. "You saw wrong." Narratively, that felt like it was building to something but led nowhere. 

Whitey's death made no sense, even if he wasn't the brightest bulb in the box at least Mary Agnes should have pointed out he should have been with the women in the hotel. 

Quote

He supposedly had a group of 30 but it seemed like the women of La Belle shot a lot more than 30 of them and then there were STILL eight more on their horses next to Frank!

Yeah - obviously the big shootout was a spectacle on a massive scale, but about ten minutes in I wondered how the hell many of them had they shot and how anyone could be left at that point. 

The Blackdom storyline also felt like a subplot that went nowhere. On reflection, it almost seems like they started writing this thing with the intention of making a multi-season series out of it, and about halfway through decided or were told this had to be a one-and-done. That would explain why they stuffed the front end so full with so many characters and subplots that ultimately went nowhere.

Edited January 2, 2018 by iMonrey

[Kel Varnsen]

32 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I also found it very unsatisfying that we spent seven hours listening to Frank say he'd seen his own death and knew how it would go just to have no payoff with that. "You saw wrong." Narratively, that felt like it was building to something but led nowhere. 

Whitey's death made no sense, even if he wasn't the brightest bulb in the box at least Mary Agnes should have pointed out he should have been with the women in the hotel.

I liked that Frank saw wrong. Nice way to finish him off and a good way to drive home how for all his speechifying and talk of god and saying he saw his own death and acting so important in the end he was just some asshole. Plus I don't think he ever said what he saw when he saw his death did he?

As for Whitey he was dumb but also way overconfident to the point of being cocky. But think of how things hsd gone for him. Last time bad guys came into town he easily got rid of them, and when he went back to Blackdom to save Louise he took out one of Frank's men no problem. So I can see him thinking that this would  just be a longer version of those situations. He also met Roy Goode and probably didn't get what the big deal was, and if Roy can take out a bunch of guys at Creede why can't Whitey. The women of LaBelle were rightfully scared and found a somewhat safer location.

[Bec]

On 12/27/2017 at 7:48 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

I imagine that assuming a new identity in the 1880s wasn't too difficult. It is not like photo ID was a thing back then. The best they could do was those poorly drawn wanted posters.  And Roy was an orphan who didn't really have a real job or fixed address so records of his life would be minimal. On top of that newspaper accounts quote a lawman saying he is dead. So who would make any kind of assumption that the person they meet might be Roy Goode?

It's true that hiding his identity from new people wouldn't be much trouble at all. I just have some lingering concerns about people who already know who he is and have a bone to pick with him. Those Quicksilver Mining Company guys, for instance. Let's hope none of them ever happen to see him again or get wind of the fact he's not really dead. I'm sure at least some of the people of La Belle aren't too happy with Roy, either. And if A. T. Grigg gets a whiff of anything he would totally screw Roy over for a good story.

I mean, it's unlikely any of these people will run into him accidentally or anything that coincidental. But they're the reasons why it wouldn't be a good idea to completely throw caution to the wind.

On 12/26/2017 at 7:44 AM, Joimiaroxeu said:

It's a wonder to me anyone survived the days of the Old West. It was pretty easy to go around shooting people on a whim but it was also pretty easy to get shot out of the blue.

Like people say, it's wasn't as violent as movies make it out to be, but it's still a wonder people survived all the other dangers - like accidents (no safety standards back then!) or sickness (no sanitation, and medical science still had a long way to go!)

[Kel Varnsen]

On 1/5/2018 at 1:19 PM, Bec said:

Like people say, it's wasn't as violent as movies make it out to be, but it's still a wonder people survived all the other dangers - like accidents (no safety standards back then!) or sickness (no sanitation, and medical science still had a long way to go!)

Yea when it comes to living in the 19th century I think I could take my chances when it comes to worrying about gunfighters. Not sure I would be ok living without antibiotics, or decent painkillers (what choices would you have for a headache other than laudanum or whiskey) or living with people who didn't understand the importance of keeping drinking water clean.

[tennisgurl]

Damn it Whitey! What a crappy way for him to go out. In fact, thats kind of how I felt about the ending of this show. Not a lot of pay off to any of the major plots or seemingly obvious set up or bits of foreshadowing. It ended, and I was like "thats it? Seemed like they had 5 minutes to tell about 500 stories". 

But, I still really liked the show, so I guess I cant complain a whole lot. It had great cinematography, acting, and memorable sequences and characters. Plus, I have a soft sport for westerns that often isn't quenched, so this really hit that sweet spot. 

[Danny Franks]

There wasn't a whole lot of storyline to the first episode, but it was chock full of haunting, beautiful, disturbing imagery. Gorgeous to look at, and definitely something to binge (which I did). It's a long time since I've seen a really good Western story, and this definitely shapes up to be that.

The opening scene, with Sam Waterston falling to his knees in horror at the hanging bodies, was an amazing hook. And I agree with the sentiment that opening episodes can be vague and oblique, with only hints at everything that's going on.

Michelle Dockery is believably tough and grizzled, as the rancher who doesn't need anyone. A very different role for her, but she immediately showed she's perfect for it. I liked her right away, although it was obvious that she's going to fall for the mysterious  stranger she almost killed.

It took me a while to recognise Scoot McNairy, but he seems to be playing another man searching for himself. Emasculated by something, and in danger of being pushed out by his own people. And by his dashing deputy, a grown up Thomas Brodie-Sangster. I liked his sister, Mary Agnes. Another tough lady, who lost her husband (as all the women have) but seems liberated by it.

And Jeff Daniels? Creepy as hell, as the twisted, faux devout 'preacher' who will butcher an entire town and then tell other people they're not godly.  Yes, his huge gang of rampaging monsters is unrealistic and would never have been permitted to run wild for so long, but it's a Western trope. As so many things in this show were.

I've long held the view that tropes and cliches are absolutely fine, as long as they're done well. Things become tropes for a reason, and there will always be something engaging about lone, almost mystical gunslingers and noble sheriffs and winsome widows. 

[Danny Franks]

So the show ends on the Shane trope, with the lone gunman riding away alone, leaving battered hearts and souls to heal. Again, fairly predictable but something I'm absolutely fin with as long as it's done well. I was hoping he'd take Alice and her son with him, especially after Alice had talked of selling up and leaving. I didn't care for the assumption that Bill would now step in and take Alice for himself. What, just because he has a crush on her, she has to reciprocate?

This was a brutal final episode, and really had me urging on every single person who shot at one of Frank's gang. First the killing of all the people of Blackdom, in what I agree was a rushed resolution, and the daughter escaping with White, only for Whitey to be unceremoniously killed was a stinker too. Although I did say out loud, as White was smirking and twirling his guns, "you're going to get yourself killed", only for him to get a knife to the chest five seconds later.

There was an immense sense of satisfaction in seeing those creepy brothers shot down, and the ugly bearded dude, and the more handsome bearded dude and the rest. And the fact that Frank leading his band into a town of women, thinking it would be a slaughter, only for it to be the last mistake he ever made. 

Bill and Roy turning up (with a rather undue lack of haste, all things considered), was pretty great. But I'm not sure that they were that necessary. Alice, Mary Agnes and the German woman who's name I don't recall were giving a pretty good account of themselves, along with the other women. I was glad that Frank didn't go out in a blaze of 'glory' with his boys. That he ran, and was tracked down, and shot like a rabid animal. And that he was wrong about his death, that whatever pompous bloviating he did was just a load of horseshit.

I didn't mention him in my other post, but Jack O'Connell really impressed me in this show. I've not seen him in anything before, but he had charisma by the bucket load, in playing what was a fairly low key character. All sizzle and deep silences. His physicality was really effective, and he told a good story with his eyes.

I know a lot of this wild, wild west stuff is all invented, that gangs of gunslingers didn't go around shooting up towns and having showdowns with one another, on a regular basis. But it does make for some great entertainment. And I think this show represented another step forward for Netflix, in their search for an identity. It was gritty, adult, very serious in tone, and filmed beautifully.

[buckboard]

And the Indian who was following Bill was a ghost?  But Roy could see him, too?   And why was he following the sheriff?  

[theatremouse]

On 12/27/2017 at 9:19 PM, LittleIggy said:

Did all of the smallpox afflicted people die naturally or did Frank help them on there way?

That is indeed the question, ain't it.

[aliferous85]

It was his arm, he instructed the surgeon who removed it to wrap it up to go.

I agree about the bees though. They would have no use for a decaying arm. Perhaps bees were easier to wrangle (production wise).

Quote

 

I felt bad for Mary at the dinner. She was trying so hard to get what she felt they all deserved but everyone else wanted the immediate money. $20K was a lot of money back then, but once you divide it among all of them, how much was really left? And was that enough to let them live in comfort for the rest of their days?

 

An average 250 dollars (if we're talking all 83 families) would still be a lot of money.

[Pamela]

I absolutely loved this series. And I am not generally a Western fan. But the performances (Merritt Wever, especially), the writing, and that heartbreakingly gorgeous cinematography all hit me just right. The rapid elimination of the Buffalo Soldiers was a surprise; an alliance between them and the women of La Belle would have been unstoppable, I felt, but the ladies did just fine on their own. (Although at one point, I did say aloud "Where the hell are Roy and Bill? Just get there already.") I swear, I barely breathed during that entire shootout.

And all those beautiful horses! It gave me such a yen to go horseback riding, and I haven't done that in forever.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Pamela

[BasilSeal]

On 02 January 2018 at 5:05 PM, iMonrey said:

Whitey's death made no sense, even if he wasn't the brightest bulb in the box at least Mary Agnes should have pointed out he should have been with the women in the hotel. 

the flaw for me is why Mary Agnes, who has looked out for Whitey's interests throughout the series, doesn't insist on him being in the hotel with the women, given that what he does do is a suicide mission but also because they need every decent shooter they can get with them, and whitey can at least shoot straight.

From the pint of view of the story though,  despite it being a shitty way for him to go out it works within the context of the narrative.

Whitey sees himself as the hero stepping out into the street to face Griffin and his gang alone in a grand heroic gesture, it's unsurprising that he's killed in the most perfunctory way almost immediately because whitey's view of himself as the heroic gun fighter is fiction based o reading too many of A T Grigg's accounts of gunfights, which we see are complete bullshit Grigg has made up and exaggerated. (ie the original fake news, and so on)

Quote

I remain (irrationally?) pissed that the horse died because of Truckee going off doing whatever he was doing because he was throwing a pouty. 

The injured horse is a metaphor, the horse is fatally injured because Truckee hasn't listened to what Roy told him, frank, in one of his moments of clarity that give his character depth, tells Truckee he has to put the horse out of his misery, because the horse is his responsibility. Truckee doesn't want to shoot the horse but in reality there is no other option, so he does it, and on one level this is Truckee learning a valuable lesson in life. On another level it's a metaphor for the relationship between Frank and Roy, Roy failed to kill frank in the original shoot out at the canyon, as Roy is a dead shot this clearly isn't because he missed, he couldn't kill Frank, even though he had a clear chance, (if he was able to shoot him in the arm, he could have killed him), and a shit load of really bad things happen as a result of this failure. Thus it's Roy's responsibility to put Frank down.

I think there also may have been a wider metaphor in the relationship between the men and the horses as outlined by both Frank and Roy, and the way Frank has essentially groomed young men to be his chosen son (in the same way he was 'adopted' by the Mormon killers who slaughtered his family). The way the outlaws unquestioningly follow frank into doing some pretty unspeakable things mirrors the way Frank/Roy's horse whispering technique for breaking horses engenders the animal to have blind trust in the rider: "he'll know you're going to protect him and look after him".

Frank's men following him into a pointless confrontation with the La Belle residents is on a par with the horses riding up the hotel staircase into a hail of bullets because their masters ask it of them. you could stretch the metaphor to include Tig from sons of anarchy's mistreatment of his horse prompting whitey and the livery guy to comment that either he would kill the horse, or it would kill him, which mirrors the situation with Roy and Frank.

Edited February 28, 2018 by BasilSeal

[Hanahope]

The bar song was pretty good.  I know the security guys are awful, but I guess these women are absolutely desperate enough to accept anything.

I was surprised that Frank didn't shoot Bill.  Who cares if some 'damn injun' is watching, Frank, or one of his boys, could shoot him too.  So why didn't they?

You could see why Roy liked being with Frank.  For a while.

Was nice to hear that Sister Cole was still around, and now spending "frank's" money.

[Hanahope]

I was a bit confused on the timeline of Roy giving Sister Lucy the money.  I thought he gave her the money from the Creede attack, or at least one of the other times Roy stole money from Frank after he left the gang.  But apparently it was before he left the gang.  So was that Roy's cut that he'd saved up?  Seemed like a huge amount.

Those Devlin twins are fucked up.  No wonder Roy was not happy at all that Frank started treating them as his "new sons."  That had to be when Roy started realizing that Frank was absolutely the worst, and not just a run of the mill 'bad guy.'

Definitely felt for Roy when he realized he could have reunited with his brother years ago and avoided Frank completely.

Almost surprised Alice and Roy didn't get together earlier, but I knew it would happen.  I wonder if she told him the story of her life after the flash flood, how she got her scar and married her second husband.

The cinematography is just so beautiful.  Can understand why people like to be out in the wilderness.

Grigg - what an asshole.  You know what he's going to do.

Loved the scenes between Mary Agnes and Martha, and resolving the conflict with Callie.

[LittleBopper]

I'm not sure why, but I find this show to be truly superb - all except for the first episode.

I didn't understand the first episode at all. It seemed to me to be mostly just a scenic tour of New Mexico in the time this show took place.

But as for the rest of the episodes - the show really got started in the second episode and although the pace is very slow, the quality is so high that I found this show to be extremely "gripping". Once I started watching, I just couldn't turn away from it.

I was very shocked when one of the lead actors was killed off early. I was hoping to watch his performance throughout the show. But I suppose that Game of Thrones set the bar when they killed off Ned Stark so early in the show. I won't name the actor who was killed off because I don't want to spoil the show for anyone else who admires this actor.

Very highly recommended.

Edited March 6, 2018 by LittleBopper

[LittleBopper]

On 11/27/2017 at 4:00 PM, Proclone said:

I'm don't claim to be any sort of expert on the Moutain Meadows Massacre or Mormon history during that time period (or any other time period), but I didn't think the story it was so over the top that it wasn't within the realm of possibility even if it probably wasn't completely historically accurate.  Children under seven were generally sparred but first taken in by the Morman families.  Seventeen of those children were returned to their relatives, but I don't think it's wildly implausible that there were at least a couple of children who were not, especially given their age, the fact that they were in the custody of people probably sympathetic to those involved in the massacre and that their return happened two years after the massacre.  And Haight was a real person who was one of the masterminds of the massacre and he spent most of the rest of his life in hiding (he was excommunicated by Brigham Young), so it stands to reason he would have just taken any hypothetical children in his custody with him.  There were definitely children that were murdered during the massacre from what I've read (the bodies of infants were found), and as for rapes, I'm not sure how anyone would know what did or did not happen since all the survivors were under seven.  From what I read there seem to be rumors that at least two women were raped before they were murdered, two teenagers who initially escaped but were later found and brought back to John Lee who lead the attack.  I'd honestly be kind of surprised if there weren't rapes, religious or not we are talking about a group of violent men.

It seemed perfectly plausible to me that Frank was looking to increase his numbers or had some wish for family and wanted to make his own.

[Hanahope]

The cinematography was simply beautiful.

I really had hoped that Whitey survived, that the knife had someone missed vital parts.  Guess not. :(

And I was sure it was going to be revealed that Frank saw his death at the hand of a woman.  That would have been so fitting with the final shoot out at La Belle with all the women.  But apparently it was just a nightmare he had, that didn't come true.

I also hated that Blackdom got taken down so easily, it looked like they didn't kill any of Frank's gang.  How could that be, with Blackdom full of trained soliders?  And why didn't the girl go get the other kids?  She left them to be slaughtered by frank's goons.  Didn't like that at all.

Overall, I liked the story and will highly recommend it to others.  Almost a shame there's not another season.

Edited March 9, 2018 by Hanahope

[LittleBopper]

On 11/24/2017 at 8:33 PM, Cthulhudrew said:

I really loved this show up until these last two episodes. The cinematography remains glorious, but the ending feels rushed, at best. A lot of plotlines seem to just end unceremoniously, leading one to wonder why they were introduced in the first place. The Buffalo Soldiers at Blackdom? Eliminated in short order, in spite of how fearsome they were constantly reputed to be. They didn't end up coming to help save the day, nor did the forbidden romance of Whitey and Louise go anywhere, as Whitey was also killed in an offhand manner. 

Bill's wanderings don't seem to have accomplished much of anything save to perhaps expose the town to the troubles it was beset in his absence. He doesn't seem much the wiser for his journey, and he just came back full circle to where he started. I guess you could say that he learned a bit of bravery when he stood up to Griffin's gang instead of trying to perform "suicide by cop bandit," but that was an awful lot of solo screentime that seemed to do little IMO.

Martha Bischoff and her PI paramour? The scenes of the two of them searching to reunite amidst the carnage might have actually held some pathos had either character actually been given any amount of time to be characters, rather than a broad swath of hastily written- and last minute- scenery.

Mary Agnes and Callie are happily reunited- albeit offscreen. A token wordless gesture of Maggie showing up to help pound nails into churchboards was all that we got there.

All Frank's talk about "seeing his own death" turns into just so much horsecrap as he confesses that the death he gets isn't the one he foresaw. 

Complaints about the ending aside, I did enjoy the show for the most part.

I also have a complaint about the last episode. Remember how people were amazed by the first 30 minutes of "Saving Pvt. Ryan"? Some folks loved it and others hated it. But that kind of carnage had never been seen before.

Well in the last episode of Godless, I didn't understand why the producers would spend something like 30 minutes just showing this endless gunfight in which it seemed to me like a few hundred people were shot dead. I couldn't believe it. 30 minutes of people shooting Civil War era weapons and blowing big holes in other people. What was the point of that? I thought it just went on for far too long.

There are a few Western movies (Long Riders, The Wild Bunch, etc.) that showed terrible violence. But the violence only lasted for a minute or so. They showed these Civil War era weapons that blew great big holes in people. But it was all done in the context of a bank robbery or something else in which it made sense. I don't understand the point of such interminable violence in this last episode. I'd love to hear any opinions from any other people here. What was the reason for dragging out that fight for such a very long time? After 2 or 3 minutes, it just got boring. Very boring.

I can understand if the point was to show some satire about the violence in other shows. But this went on for so long, it just seemed pointless to me. I probably just don't understand the intent.

However, like you, I really loved this show. There was something about the quality of production that lifted this show above most others. I'm not sure what it was. But IMHO, this show was truly superb apart from a couple of minor complaints. However, if I ever watch it again, I will FF thru the long gunfight in the last episode.

On 11/25/2017 at 5:42 PM, maystone said:

I just finished watching it about 20 minutes ago, and I really liked it. The last 15 minutes or so were anti-climactic, but the cinematography was worth watching at the least. Great casting (Merritt Wever, baby!), solid acting all around, some quirkiness, a few plot twists, an epic gun battle, and a literate script. The problems that I had were mostly on my part: I didn't pick up on a lot of secondary character names, and from a distance I could not tell Roy from Bill (but then my eye sight is about the same as Bill's).

I love a good Western, and, Westworld aside, it's been a long dry patch for fans of the genre. Godless filled that empty space in my fannish heart quite nicely.

Somewhat off topic. But I'd love to find a thread dedicated to the best westerns - both movies and TV shows. I'm often disappointed when I watch older TV westerns. Shows like Bonanza that I truly enjoyed in my youth. Today when I watched a few episodes, they seemed silly - even ridiculous. But I'd love to hear about some Westerns that people thought were excellent. I wonder where it would be appropriate to start such a thread.

Edited March 6, 2018 by LittleBopper

[LittleBopper]

On 12/6/2017 at 6:54 PM, Ujio said:

Jack O'Connell was also nominated in the lead category and the show itself was also nominated in the Best Limited Series category.

Yep, it sucks that women got ignored. They wererobbed :-(

I had not heard about the fact the ladies were not named for any awards. But for those people who feel this was somehow bad for ladies in the industry, I just want to say that IMHO, this show was a big step ahead for women in the entertainment industry. The show was all about how a group of women whose husbands and other men were all suddenly removed from their lives managed to run their lives just fine. I see it as showing how women were perfectly able to empower themselves and out-fight a large group of murderous thugs and beat the *BLEEP* out of them. I thought one of the main themes of this show was to depict how women in this time frame and geographical area were not just weak shadows of their men. It showed how so many women were actually strong and independent and were able to run their lives and their communities without hardly any help from any men.

I loved it!

I especially loved the scene where one lady challenged a man to "outdraw" her and was clearly a better gunfighter than he was. Talk about surprised!

I loved it!

Edited March 6, 2018 by LittleBopper

[LittleBopper]

On 11/24/2017 at 12:00 PM, OoogleEyes said:

Good LORT this is a gorgeous show!

Agreed. The cinematography was truly gorgeous. But the ideas presented by this show - mainly the way that women were depicted was also quite wonderful.

Almost all Westerns of this era depicted women as weak shadows of the men in their lives. I think this show was far more realistic. If women of this era were truly weak and wholly dependent on men, I don't believe they ever would have been able to survive life in the late 1800s in New Mexico.

I'd love to see more shows like this - shows that give a more accurate depiction of the role women played in that era.

P.S. I'm a man by the way. I have no special reason to cheer for women in the Entertainment industry. I guess I'm just sick and tired of the really stupid and insipid way women are usually depicted in movies and TV shows. A show like this one is long overdue .

[maystone]

4 hours ago, LittleBopper said:

I also have a complaint about the last episode. Remember how people were amazed by the first 30 minutes of "Saving Pvt. Ryan"? Some folks loved it and others hated it. But that kind of carnage had never been seen before.

Well in the last episode of Godless, I didn't understand why the producers would spend something like 30 minutes just showing this endless gunfight in which it seemed to me like a few hundred people were shot dead. I couldn't believe it. 30 minutes of people shooting Civil War era weapons and blowing big holes in other people. What was the point of that? I thought it just went on for far too long.

There are a few Western movies (Long Riders, The Wild Bunch, etc.) that showed terrible violence. But the violence only lasted for a minute or so. They showed these Civil War era weapons that blew great big holes in people. But it was all done in the context of a bank robbery or something else in which it made sense. I don't understand the point of such interminable violence in this last episode. I'd love to hear any opinions from any other people here. What was the reason for dragging out that fight for such a very long time? After 2 or 3 minutes, it just got boring. Very boring.

I can understand if the point was to show some satire about the violence in other shows. But this went on for so long, it just seemed pointless to me. I probably just don't understand the intent.

However, like you, I really loved this show. There was something about the quality of production that lifted this show above most others. I'm not sure what it was. But IMHO, this show was truly superb apart from a couple of minor complaints. However, if I ever watch it again, I will FF thru the long gunfight in the last episode.

Somewhat off topic. But I'd love to find a thread dedicated to the best westerns - both movies and TV shows. I'm often disappointed when I watch older TV westerns. Shows like Bonanza that I truly enjoyed in my youth. Today when I watched a few episodes, they seemed silly - even ridiculous. But I'd love to hear about some Westerns that people thought were excellent. I wonder where it would be appropriate to start such a thread.

I normally FF through car chases, fist fights, gun battles - pretty much everything that puts the action in Action movies. However, I watched every minute of the gun battle in the last episode of Godless. That confrontation had been set up since the first episode and then reinforced in just about every episode in between the first and the last. Over the course of the show I came to know and care about a number of the characters. I also saw how outgunned the women (and the few men) in town were compared to the Griffen gang. I really wanted to see how that played out, and once it started, I was pulled in by the courage and determination of the townspeople vs the unrelenting blood thirstiness of the gang. I don't remember it as being particularly gory, but then I've been watching The Walking Dead for eight years; "gore" is now a relative term. All in all I think the length of the gun battle and the explicit nature is supported by everything that came before.

As to favorite Westerns - I'd love to have that conversation in a dedicated forum. If you find out how and where to start one, drop a note here and I'll come running. In the meantime, IMDB has a list of their top 50 TV Westerns. I didn't go through the whole list, but it starts out with Westworld and Lonesome Dove, both of which I highly endorse.

[LittleBopper]

1 hour ago, maystone said:

I normally FF through car chases, fist fights, gun battles - pretty much everything that puts the action in Action movies. However, I watched every minute of the gun battle in the last episode of Godless. That confrontation had been set up since the first episode and then reinforced in just about every episode in between the first and the last. Over the course of the show I came to know and care about a number of the characters. I also saw how outgunned the women (and the few men) in town were compared to the Griffen gang. I really wanted to see how that played out, and once it started, I was pulled in by the courage and determination of the townspeople vs the unrelenting blood thirstiness of the gang. I don't remember it as being particularly gory, but then I've been watching The Walking Dead for eight years; "gore" is now a relative term. All in all I think the length of the gun battle and the explicit nature is supported by everything that came before.

As to favorite Westerns - I'd love to have that conversation in a dedicated forum. If you find out how and where to start one, drop a note here and I'll come running. In the meantime, IMDB has a list of their top 50 TV Westerns. I didn't go through the whole list, but it starts out with Westworld and Lonesome Dove, both of which I highly endorse.

I took a look at that list and stopped after Deadwood. That was a wonderful, superb TV show. It's very difficult to recommend any other show above Deadwood because it was unlike anything I'd ever seen before. I love watching movies and TV shows that are "groundbreaking" like Deadwood was. No other show is able to compare with Deadwood. I find it amazing that some show runner was able to just pluck that show out of the Ethos (correct word?). It amazes me how they are able to do something like that. Aside from Deadwood, the one other Western that I remember as being at the top of most any list is "The Long Riders". In part, that's because of its terrific quality. But also, if you know a little about the background of David Carradine and his brothers, it puts the movie into a very unique perspective. The stars of that movie include 3 sets of famous brothers who have a reputation of being "Bad Boys" and so I find watching that film is always a great delight. The brothers include: David, Keith and Robert Carradine, James & Stacy Keach, and Dennis & Randy Quaid. These actors all played infamous brothers in the movie which seemed to drive home some of the themes. In addition, there were some fabulous scenes with some "bad" women. I loved the scene so much where Belle Star (I think it was Belle Star) asked David Carradine, "How come no one ever invites me to their dances?" He answers, "It's because you're a whore! You've always been a whore and you will always be a whore!" There is something wonderfully memorable about that conversation. IMO, it was one of the truly great scenes from any movie. I loved it!

Edited March 7, 2018 by LittleBopper

[Cthulhudrew]

I second (or third or fourth) the call for some kind of Western forum/thread. I agree that many of the classic westerns seem a little dated and cheesy- different times, different culture- but though it's been a while since I've seen any of them, I do remember really enjoying The Rifleman. And more modern-ly, Brisco County, Jr. (though I didn't like it when it first aired, I caught up with it many, many years later when perhaps my tastes had matured a bit more?). I also need to sit down and watch Maverick one of these days; I think I only ever saw one or two episodes, but I so loved James Garner on the Rockford Files, I think I'd really like Maverick.

[SerenityNow721]

Really loved the series - but agree with a few of the minor criticisms that have been mentioned re: plot lines that seemed unresolved/pointless.

I have a question. Was it ever explained why Roy betrayed Frank or was it up to the viewer's interpretation?  Did he just realize one day that he wasn't like the other outlaws?  Did he grow a conscience as he became a man?  I'm wondering because as far as I could tell, Frank offered Roy unconditional love and loyalty and we never saw him waver from that commitment.  We never saw abuse or betrayal on Frank's part, so what changed for Roy?

I thought Jeff Daniels was just incredible in the role of Frank Griffin.  I'm fascinated by characters that are ruthless and evil on one hand, but show infinite tenderness on the other hand, as Frank did with young Roy.  And his horses, of course.

[Hanahope]

4 hours ago, SerenityNow721 said:

I have a question. Was it ever explained why Roy betrayed Frank or was it up to the viewer's interpretation?  Did he just realize one day that he wasn't like the other outlaws?  Did he grow a conscience as he became a man?  I'm wondering because as far as I could tell, Frank offered Roy unconditional love and loyalty and we never saw him waver from that commitment.  We never saw abuse or betrayal on Frank's part, so what changed for Roy?

I didn't see anything that was set up as the "absolute definite reason" for the betrayal.  The only scene I saw that seemed to suggest some dissent between the two was when Frank picked up the Devlin twins.  When Frank went to 'see what happened,' the other outlaws discussed their opinion that it was the Devlin twins that shot up their own family, and Roy sees what appears to be a dead new born baby on the ground.  I got the impression that Roy took an instant dislike to the twins and felt some disillusionment that Frank would treat them like sons, when Roy thought he was  Frank's "son", and he certainly didn't kill his own family or a baby, and maybe he thought the twins were too crazy and would kill innocent people more recklessly and Frank wouldn't care.  It sounded like Roy may have been brought up by Frank, but he really wasn't like him and Roy finally got fed up with Frank and his gang's kill sprees.

[AZChristian]

We watched this first episode last night.  We think we like it, and plan to work all the way through the series.  Some recollections:

• I knew right away that the guy with the bandana over his face was Sam Waterston.  Only man I've ever seen with close-set eyes who is that memorable.  I like him better in this role than in Grace and Frankie.
• When Sam and his group rode past all those dead bodies, it was reminiscent of the recent remake of "The Magnificent Seven."
• Loved the scene where the Indian lady cauterized Roy Good's wound.  Literally brought him back from the dead.
• When the one guy was talking about Roy's robbing from the bad guys and said, "Some folks call him Robin Good," I thought it was odd that someone living in the old west would be familiar with Robin Hood.
• Michelle Dockery was SOOOO different!

[humbleopinion]

The baby was the result of incest...the twin(s) having sex with their sister...

Roy saw the baby in the pit and put 2 and 2 together.

Frank welcomed the Devil Twins...Devlin Twins into the gang...even though no one was fooled that they  killed their own family...

 

Whitey died to fool us...we held our breath and were relieved that Roy wasn't dead...

The money in the riding pouch represents freedom for Alice to stay or go to Boston...she doesn't have to marry Bill.

Roy could see the ghost and dog because he lived with a tribe and  learned awareness...

It is always fun to see actors ride horses and shoot guns...some are better than others...

Loved Tantoo Cardinal  as Iyovi, she was also in Legends of the Fall....

Jack O'Connell was terrific.

Edited April 23, 2018 by humbleopinion

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Emmy nominations!

Outstanding Limited Series
Outstanding Lead Actress in a Limited Series or Movie - Michelle Dockery
Outstanding Supporting Actress In A Limited Series Or Movie - Merritt Wever
Outstanding Supporting Actor In A Limited Series Or Movie - Jeff Daniels
Outstanding Writing For A Limited Series, Movie Or Dramatic Special - Scott Frank
Outstanding Directing For A Limited Series, Movie Or Dramatic Special - Scott Frank
Outstanding Casting For A Limited Series, Movie Or Special
Outstanding Cinematography For A Limited Series Or Movie - An Incident at Creede
Outstanding Hairstyling For A Limited Series Or Movie
Outstanding Music Composition For A Limited Series, Movie Or Special (Original Dramatic Score) - Homecoming
Outstanding Original Main Title Theme Music
Outstanding Sound Editing For A Limited Series, Movie Or Special - Homecoming

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Godless won the following award at the Creative Emmys last weekend:

Outstanding Original Main Title Theme Music - Carlos Rafael Rivera

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Godless picked up two more Emmys tonight!

Supporting Actress in a Limited Series or a Television Movie - Merritt Wever
Supporting Actor in a Limited Series or a Television Movie - Jeff Daniels

[roughing it]

New viewer here!  Watched the first episode last night.  I'm intrigued and hooked and will continue.  But something about westerns always bugs me - why does "western" = southern accents?  I found some of the dialog difficult to understand, very garbled at times.

[nachomama]

The ladies definitely should have held out for more, great googly moogly I love me some Merritt Wever! I know I'm late but I just had to start this and it's blowing my mind. IF the Quicksilver mining dudes paid $20,000 up front which even seems low to me for their time period and then Callie says she's saved $20,000 from whoring, how much was she getting?! from 25 cents to a dollar? and worked for how long? Even if Lady Magdalena's was widely reputed could she have saved that much?

And if it's been 2 years since the mine blew wouldn't the town be far more destitute by now? People were still shopping and there were still supplies to buy at the shop.

I also want a show with Scoot McNairy and Skeet Ulrich playing brothers in an old timey detective show.

[roughing it]

Quote

As to favorite Westerns - I'd love to have that conversation in a dedicated forum. If you find out how and where to start one, drop a note here and I'll come running. In the meantime, IMDB has a list of their top 50 TV Westerns. I didn't go through the whole list, but it starts out with Westworld and Lonesome Dove, both of which I highly endorse.

My favorite all time movie across all genre (not just Westerns) is Lonesome Dove, and as far as westerns, I also recommend the Longmire series.

I was hoping that Truckee would turn the gun from his horse to Frank, and be the one who takes him out.  But then we would not have had the token shootout at the OK corral finish between Frank and Roy.

I understand Roy's (now Mr. Ward's) need to see his brother and become family once again.  But if the series were to continue, I would like to see him return 'home' to Alice, yet keep in touch with brother.

Mary Agnes/Mary/Maggie for mayor!!

Edited September 25, 2018 by roughing it

[rippleintime17]

Just started this show and am sure I will knock out the rest of the episodes by the end of the week. I loooove the imagery! It's filling the Hell on Wheels sized void in my heart! 

Already love Merritt Wever. And interested to see where Kim Coates' character (noticed he was a main character on the credits, but he only had a brief appearance in this episode) ends up going. 

Edited September 25, 2018 by rippleintime17