S03.E10: Heaven and Earth

[Athena]

Quote

Claire races to discover the source of an epidemic aboard a disease-stricken ship before hundreds of sailors die. And as Jamie locks horns with Captain Raines, Fergus finds himself torn between loyalty and love.

Reminder: The is the book talk thread. This can include spoilers for ALL the books. If you wish to remain unspoiled for any of the books, please leave now and head to the No Book Talk episode thread.

[areca]

Loved it!  Can we keep this writer please?  Also...Elias broke my damn heart.  

[toolazy]

I am finally all in on this version of Fergus & Marsali. 

[koboldin]

I was so bored. Jailing Jamie? Good god. And yet, I wish we could have had more of him - FINALLY pulling out the photos - than 40+ minutes of boring Claire. Elias, Capt Leonard and Ms Johansson were great, but I really am so over seeing more of Claire. I can’t explain exactly what put me over the edge, but her entire show presentation this season (and lots of last season, too, if I’m honest) drives me batty. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

So. Yi Tien Cho wasn’t allowed to treat Jamie with Acupuncture? I know this show wants to really show realism, but again, I could have done without all the retching sounds.???

And I was also glad for Claire’s voiceover because I couldn’t make out what she was reading about Jamie in the ledger.  And since my memory is fuzzy at best with this story, was this in the buik?

And yay! We get Jamie looking at the pictures of Bree. So it seems the show is going to continue the shuffling around events that happened in the buik on the show.

My ? at the friction between Jamie and Fergus.

Man, I really hope Jamie and Claire find themselves back together by the end of next episode. I REALLY don’t want to wait until the second to last episode for that.?

[Dust Bunny]

2 hours ago, toolazy said:

I am finally all in on this version of Fergus & Marsali. 

Agreed. And kudos to the casting, as usual. I felt like I was truly looking at older Romann Berrux. César has won my heart, and I love the strength that Lauren Lyle is bringing to Marsali. They're an equal team, just like Jamie and Claire. Moreover, Fergus' love for Jamie is, well, beautiful. "Perhaps I love too much." Double-meaning. I can't wait to see César's reaction in the next episode for the single word of "Fraser". I love father-figure Jamie Fraser.

Both Sam and Cait were stellar in this episode; they hit all the right notes. They own these characters now. They embody the roles. Damn, they're good.

Special mention to Albie Marber. His Elias was wonderful. Now when I reread that chapter, I'll have a sweet face to go with the name.

Oh - and Annekja was great. They cast even the smaller parts perfectly. Bring on Father Fogden!

I was a bit disappointed we didn't get the Governor Grey scene. I've really come to love David Berry. His presence is palpable. Maybe, it'll make his appearance in Jamaica all the more meaningful. (I would absolutely watch a Lord John Grey spinoff. Make it so, Starz.)

I didn't realize it until this episode, but the surnames are reversed on the show. Claire has been going by Fraser and not Malcolm on the show's Porpoise. When Captain Leonard called Claire "Mistress Fraser", I thought that was slip-up that revealed he knew Jamie's identity as Red Jamie. I didn't realize it was the Alexander Malcolm name that gave him away. Interesting.

One change I didn't like was show Tompkins. I liked the Rat Tompkins in the book who spilled the beans, due to Claire's threats. This Tompkins was sinister, and it didn't sit as well with me. Not sure why. I guess I liked the more colorful/playful book version.

One little thing I loved (I went to Saturday night worship, so I guess it especially struck me) was the nod to Claire's Catholicism. When the crew was praying the Lord's Prayer, Claire joined in, but she didn't recite the doxology - "for Thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever and ever." I'm Lutheran, not Episcopal/Anglican, but it's spot-on that the Protestant British crew would say the doxology and Claire wouldn't. It was such a small moment, but I adored the detail.

As Matt Roberts noted in the after-ep conversation, writer Luke Schelhaas did the research. Love the authenticity laced throughout. Well done.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Dust Bunny

[Petunia846]

Not bad, but not a favorite.

I didn't really understand the scene where Marsali comes into where Jamie was being held with the captain and they let him out. Part of it was that I couldn't understand what was being said. I'll have to rewatch later with CC on, but can anyone explain what was so clever or brave or whatever that he then went on to give them his blessing?

I guess, now that I think about it, that the whole meeting Lord John on the ship part doesn't work in a visual medium. In the book it's a surprise later that he's THAT Grey because we're in Claire's POV and she doesn't know, but on TV, they'd have to show his face or his voice, and even if Claire doesn't know, the viewers still would and that would ruin the surprise once we get to Jamaica.

The young man playing Elias stole the show. If not for him, it would have been a pretty blah episode for me. The burial at sea was also quite well done and very moving. The bit about the noses...omg. There's a tidbit of knowledge none of us will ever forget. Gah!

[Fallacy]

Fergus is hot. Yum. I get him and Marsali now even though I still don't like her particularly. 

I too miss Jamie and Claire together, but I remember from the book that we didn't get any Jamie at all until Claire seems him again, so the show made the right call giving him some scenes this episode. 

I like Dr. Claire. That version of Claire really helps ground her character. And I loved her last line before she jumped ship because no, that was not a rational, scientific decision. 

[thesparkinside]

3 hours ago, Petunia846 said:

I didn't really understand the scene where Marsali comes into where Jamie was being held with the captain and they let him out. Part of it was that I couldn't understand what was being said. I'll have to rewatch later with CC on, but can anyone explain what was so clever or brave or whatever that he then went on to give them his blessing?

Fergus and Marsali convinced the captain that if Jamie gave his word not to rebel, he would keep it. I'm not a hundred percent sure why the captain believes them, but I think we can infer perhaps from previous episodes that he was really looking for an excuse to let Jamie out. He seems to be the sort to put on a display to mollify his men while knowing at the same time that it isn't necessary the best option.

And thank God *Fergus* kept his head, because bloody Jamie telling him to try to incite a mutiny . . . Jesus. That would be a sure death sentence because it almost certainly wouldn't work. And for what? So they could catch up with Claire, when they're going to meet up with her in Jamaica anyway? Jesus, Jamie, way to bring down everyone with you for no really good reason. And yes, he's worried about Claire being alone on a ship with 300 men, but I think getting yourself, Fergus, and probably some other men killed isn't the best way to try to help her. She wasn't in imminent danger, really--just in a place where there *might* be some danger.

Anyway, I was really glad to see the photographs come out again, and I loved poor Elias Pound. That kid was great--heartbreaking, too. He was trying so hard. I didn't like the way Claire yelled at him about licking the grog off his fingers. Lay off, Claire. He has no idea what germs are or why you're doing what you're doing. Take it easy. She did treat him much better in other scenes. I was really pleased to see them develop the relationship between Fergus and Marsali. They're cute and a good team. And the goat-lady (sorry, can't recall how to spell her name) was really cool, too. I like how secondary characters are competent and are helpful, whereas in many shows it's all The Hero doing Hero Things and the rest of the world is just kind of there.

I really did love all the seafaring details.

Overall, a great episode.

[BryroseA]

Noooo small Elias. :( :(  I’ve forgotten most of this part of the book, so that was doubly sad. 

Thus far, I’m definitely liking the back half of Voyager better on screen than on the page. It translates better in a visual medium. 

That .02 second shot of Jaime in his tiny round glasses looking at the photos. GAH. More of that, please. 

[WatchrTina]

Hmmm.  I'm going to post my initial reactions without thinking too much or reading this thread.

As a reader I was cringing all over the place because I did't like what happened on board the Artemis after Claire was taken.  It had to be new -- we couldn't see it in the book because we were locked in Claire's point of view -- so I have to get over the fact that they went "off book."  And I guess I can well imagine that Jamie WOULD have gone a bit crazy, coming up with an unworkable plan (a mutiny with 6 people vs. 20) just to make the Artemis sail faster toward an impossible confrontation.  As I sit here and type these words (knowing now that in the end Fergus and Marsali worked together to get Jamie released -- so yay team Fersali) I'm coming to accept that the episode makes sense in the end.  But damn, I was suffering a through the middle.

People have criticized this show by saying that Jamie is too perfect.  Well, here's an episode where he's not.  His emotions get the better of him -- he's making poor decisions.  It's up to Fergus and Marsali to save him from himself (and to save Marsali from ending up at the mercy of the crew.) That's probably a realistic imagining of how Jamie-gone-mad WOULD have behaved.  And thank goodness they (the writers) saved it by having Fergus refuse Jamie's offer (to swap his "blessing" for being set free.)  Now we (or at least *I*) love Fergus even more -- both for holding out when he could have bedded Marsali and for plotting a course through this difficult situation that was both smart and honorable.

 

12 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I was also glad for Claire’s voiceover because I couldn’t make out what she was reading about Jamie in the ledger.  And since my memory is fuzzy at best with this story, was this in the buik?

I haven't read this part of the book in a while but Claire definitely finds out that the captain of the Artemis has realized that Jamie is a wanted man and is planning on reporting him to the British authorities on Jamaica.  He admits as much to her and even apologizes, saying that if he had not written it in the log he could, perhaps, have looked the other way in light of all her assistance with he sick men.  But having already written about Jamie in the log book, he felt his hands were tied.  So book!Claire DID know she was going to used as bait if she stayed on board the Porpoise.  That's why she goes over the side.  BTW, Claire's reluctance to go over the side felt out of character.  I guess I'll have to go back and re-read that section and see if it is true to the book. 

 

10 hours ago, Dust Bunny said:

One little thing I loved (I went to Saturday night worship, so I guess it especially struck me) was the nod to Claire's Catholicism. When the crew was praying the Lord's Prayer, Claire joined in, but she didn't recite the doxology - "for Thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever and ever." I'm Lutheran, not Episcopal/Anglican, but it's spot-on that the Protestant British crew would say the doxology and Claire wouldn't. It was such a small moment, but I adored the detail.

I missed that bit.  What I DID wonder about is that she did not make the sign of the cross at the end. I was raised Cathaolic, even attending parochial elementary school complete with nuns.  But later in life I attending both a Methodist and an Episcopal church.  Not making the sign of the cross at the end of the Our Father was one of the toughest things for me to un-learn.  (In contrast, at family weddings later in life I would always launch into the doxology at the end of the Our Father and my still-Catholic family would smirk at me.)

Edited November 19, 2017 by WatchrTina

[NeenerNeener]

Everybody has pretty much covered everything I wanted to say, except that I had no idea tri-corner hats could be unrolled. When Elias gave her the hat that first time I was wondering what bloody good that wee thing was going to do to keep the sun off her face...until I saw it with the corners unrolled.

Edited November 19, 2017 by NeenerNeener

[toolazy]

3 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

 

I missed that bit.  What I DID wonder about is that she did not make the sign of the cross at the end. I was raised Cathaolic, even attending parochial elementary school complete with nuns.  But later in life I attending both a Methodist and an Episcopal church.  Not making the sign of the cross at the end of the Our Father was one of the toughest things for me to un-learn.  (In contrast, at family weddings later in life I would always launch into the doxology at the end of the Our Father and my still-Catholic family would smirk at me.)

I went to Catholic school for 13 years but I don't remember making the sign of the cross after the Our Father.  I don't remember not doing it, either, just that it's not a reflex for me.  

[WatchrTina]

THE GOOD

Oooh lookie!  A pre-credits scene!  I love that Jamie is still on deck, still “not taking his eye off” the Porpoise.  In fact that whole off-book scene was very well written.  You can totally understand the Captain’s actions, even as you (the viewer) are totally in synch with Jamie’s outrage and dismay as our OTP is torn asunder AGAIN.

Oooh, that credits image.  The broaching of a cask of green liquid.  Spooky foreshadowing.

Sooooo did anyone else notice that one of the “two slags” making the still to distill pure alcohol from grog was all kinds of hot?  And he was released from “The Tollbooth” so he’s probably a Scot.  Hey show-runners – can we keep this one, please?

Elias Pound.  Sigh.  It was smart, both in the book and the show, to give us a member of the crew of the Porpoise to care about.

I loved Fergus snatching an extra bit of bread for Jamie as he takes him his meal.  He hasn’t lost his pickpocketing skills and it’s clever of the writers (or the actor or director) to show us that so we understand later that Fergus’ failure to get the keys is a choice he makes and not the result of his having lost his skills along with his hand.

That burial at sea was beautifully shot (thought that “last-stitch-through-the-nose-by-a-friend” thing was kind of gruesome.)

And speaking of which, the second time you watch the episode I dare you not to feel a frisson of anticipatory grief as Elias makes the stitch for his friend and then looks up at Claire who (we now know) will have to perform the same service for him.

Listen to Claire’s talk to Elias about the need for “compartmentalizing” when treating the sick and then compare that to the state of out-of-control rage that Jamie is living through at the same moment.  It’s a nice contrast.  I also liked when Claire acknowledges at the end that compartmentalizing her feelings is easier for her than for Elias since it was not her friend who was buried at sea that day. For Jamie -- torn apart from his beloved and powerless to change the situation – it’s impossible.

No Elias!  Don’t give away the lucky rabbit’s foot your own mother gave you!  It’s been a while since I’ve read this portion of the book and I did not recollect Elias’ fate when I watched the first time but even an unsullied reader should have seen the handwriting on the wall when that happened.  It’s a nice bit of foreshadowing.

Okay it was a clever bit of writing that they had to beat Tompkins and injure his arm before dragging him in front of Claire.  Otherwise her being alone in a room with him would have been ridiculously dangerous.  Even with her holding a saw and him cradling his injured arm I felt she was at risk.  But his injury coupled with his malaise and sense of hopelessness made it just plausible that he would tell Claire what she needed to know – not because he felt threatened but because he just didn’t give a shit any more.  I did find it interesting that before having him locked up as the second carrier she took the time to treat his injured arm.  There WAS a guard standing outside the door to her work area.  I’d like to think she had him step inside before she laid hands on Tompkins to treat him.

Oooh, that shot of Tompkins backing away into the shadows of his cell after Claire tells him the other prisoner was the source of the disease was nicely done.

Oooh I loved the way Jamie is shot in the next scene.  First we see him gazing at the moon, lit by blue-tinted moonlight from above, and then he is lit by yellow lantern light with half his face -- his dismayed, angry face -- hidden by one of the bars.  The lighting and the way that was shot was such a nice compliment to the conflict in that scene and Jamie’s continued “madness.”  I hated the bits of the Jamie/Fergus conflict that were included in last week’s teaser trailer but now I get understand them.  (Note to self, stop watching teasers.)

On first viewing I couldn’t understand why the young Captain fails to tell Claire that they will be taking on fresh water the next day when she warns that they are at risk of running out.  But it all makes sense when he catches her the next day trying to run away and he tells her what he knows about her husband. He didn’t tell her about the water stop because he already knew she could not be trusted.

I liked the shot of the yellow flag at the moment that Claire voice-overs about how they were “under quarantine”.  I don’t know nautical rules but I presume that’s what the yellow flag means.

Jamie in eyeglasses looking at photos of Brianna, while gently let by moon-light is almost as good as bare-chested Jamie, getting his wounds tended while gently-lit by fire-light.  Almost.

When Jamie poses the question “I’m ‘good and able’ now am I?” and turns around I love the look Marsali is giving him and his jolt of reaction when he sees her.  I’ll bet she looked a LOT like her mother at that particular moment.  I laughed.

Aaaaaand then Marsali sets Jamie straight about Fergus’ motivations and just like that all is forgiven (by me).  All those stank-eyes she’s been giving my girl Claire are forgotten and I am solidly on team Fersali.

“Thank you.  Mon fils.”  Awwwwwwwww.

Oh yay! They showed Annika and Claire tying up Claire’s shoes and her skirt – the one with the secret pockets – into a bundle for Claire to take with her over the side.  Thank you writers.  I was obsessing about how Claire manages to hang on to her possessions when she goes into the water.  It’s not clear to me if Claire is still carrying around her surgical instruments and secret supply of penicillin in her pockets but if she is, she’ll not lose them just yet.

 

THE BAD

Uh, that lecture Claire gave Elias about not licking his fingers after dipping them in grog made no sense.  I wrote more on this topic but it was gross and I think I’ll spare everyone.

I love Book!Claire’s tendency to curse and it amuses me that she occasionally shocks men by it – even sailors.  As much as I love Caitriona’s portrayal, her version of Claire is rather less “earthy” than the one that lives in my head and her cursing in this episode rang false to me.

Hmmmm.  I wish Claire could have figured out a way to get out of the Captain’s office and away from the cook without threatening to falsely accuse him of sexual assault.  Was that in the book?  I don’t recall it.  I guess you have to use the tools that are available to you and as one of only two women on board the threat of rape is an over-arching possibility for Claire (one that is clearly all too present in Jamie’s fevered mind).  But I hate the idea of Claire using Machiavellian logic (doing a bad thing for a good cause.)  Isn’t that the very topic she and Jamie debated late one night at the dining table in Paris?  Ultimately she didn’t falsely accuse him and perhaps she would never have done so.  Perhaps she was just clever enough to make him think she WAS capable of that.  But we’ll never know for sure.  It makes for an interesting contrast to the going-on on the Artemis where Fergus & Marsali finally get Jamie freed by revealing that he’s such an honorable man that he’d never break his word to the captain after giving it.

Um, why would anyone broach a cask of crème de menthe with an axe while it was sitting on its side in a warehouse surrounded by other casks?  Why would they broach that particular one?  That scene made NO sense.  The only fan-wank I can come up with is that what we saw on screen was Claire’s imagination -- not what really happened -- and that in reality there was some clue that something other than Crème de Menthe was in that cask when Sir Percival and his men came calling at Jamie’s warehouse after he fled Edinburgh.

I find it hard to believe that no one on deck noticed the spots prominently displayed on Elias’ arm.  You’d think that on a plague ship the crew would be positively obsessive about looking for signs of the disease on the men around them.  I suppose that we can fan-wank that with the epidemic on the wane the crew has relaxed its vigilance but still, that rang false.

The whole scene between Annika and Claire on the darkened deck also rang false to me.  Claire’s unwillingness to take this, her only chance of escape seemed completely out of character.  And while I loved Annika offering her assistance, I found her offering a purse full of money to be completely ridiculous.  The writers must need that money later as a plot point but it is unrealistic that someone like Annika would have money in the first place – especially mid-voyage (payment was probably made at the END of a voyage). Even if she did have coins it seems completely unreasonable to have her offering it up to someone who is almost a complete stranger.  I suppose we can fan-wank that Annika falsely supposes that Claire somehow saved her husband from the plague but still, to me, that scene was unrealistic.

 

THE UGLY

Jamie trying to bribe Fergus into helping him by offering to give his permission to marry Marsali – that makes my heart hurt.  I presume that scene was offered up as evidence that Jamie is not at all himself in that moment – that rage at Claire’s having been taken and fear for her safety are driving him a bit mad.  But damn, seeing Jamie saying those terrible things to Fergus and trying to bribe him – that was ugly.

Edited November 21, 2017 by WatchrTina

[toolazy]

2 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

THE GOOD

Oooh lookie!  A pre-credits scene!  I love that Jamie is still on deck, still “not taking his eye off” the Porpoise.  In fact that whole off-book scene was very well written.  You can totally understand the Captain’s actions, even as you (the viewer) are totally in synch with Jamie’s outrage and dismay as our OTP is torn asunder AGAIN.

Oooh, that credits image.  The broaching of a cask of green liquid.  Spooky foreshadowing.

Sooooo did anyone else notice that one of the “two slags” making the still to distill pure alcohol from grog was all kinds of hot?  And he was released from “The Tollbooth” so he’s probably a Scot.  Hey show-runners – can we keep this one, please?

Elias Pound.  Sigh.  It was smart, both in the book and the show, to give us a member of the crew of the Porpoise to care about.

I loved Fergus snatching an extra bit of bread for Jamie as he takes him his meal.  He hasn’t lost his pickpocketing skills and it’s clever of the writers (or the actor or director) to show us that so we understand later that Fergus’ failure to get the keys is a choice he makes and not the result of his having lost his skills along with his hand.

That burial at sea was beautifully shot (thought that “last-stitch-through-the-nose-by-a-friend” thing was kind of gruesome.)

And speaking of which, the second time you watch the episode I dare you not to feel a frisson of anticipatory grief as Elias makes the stitch for his friend and then looks up at Claire who (we now know) will have to perform the same service for him.

Listen to Claire’s talk to Elias about the need for “compartmentalizing” when treating the sick and then compare that to the state of out-of-control rage that Jamie is living through at the same moment.  It’s a nice contrast.  I also liked when Claire acknowledges at the end that compartmentalizing her feelings is easier for her than for Elias since it was not her friend who was buried at sea that day. For Jamie -- torn apart from his beloved and powerless to change the situation – it’s impossible.

No Elias!  Don’t give away the lucky rabbit’s foot your own mother gave you!  It’s been a while since I’ve read this portion of the book and I did not recollect Elias’ fate when I watched the first time but even an unsullied reader should have seen the handwriting on the wall when that happened.  It’s a nice bit of foreshadowing.

Okay it was a clever bit of writing that they had to beat Tompkins and injure his arm before dragging him in front of Claire.  Otherwise her being alone in a room with him would have been ridiculously dangerous.  Even with her holding a saw and him cradling his injured arm I felt she was at risk.  But his injury coupled with his malaise and sense of hopelessness made it just plausible that he would tell Claire what she needed to know – not because he felt threatened but because he just didn’t give a shit any more.  I did find it interesting that before having him locked up as the second carrier she took the time to treat his injured arm.  There WAS a guard standing outside the door to her work area.  I’d like to think she had him step inside before she laid hands on Tompkins to treat him.

Oooh, that shot of Tompkins backing away into the shadows of his cell after Claire tells him the other prisoner was the source of the disease was nicely done.

Oooh I loved the way Jamie is shot in the next scene.  First we see him gazing at the moon, lit by blue-tinted moonlight from above, and then he is lit by yellow lantern light with half his face -- his dismayed, angry face -- hidden by one of the bars.  The lighting and the way that was shot was such a nice compliment to the conflict in that scene and Jamie’s continued “madness.”  I hated the bits of the Jamie/Fergus conflict that were included in last week’s teaser trailer but now I get understand them.  (Note to self, stop watching teasers.)

On first viewing I couldn’t understand why the young Captain fails to tell Claire that they will be taking on fresh water the next day when she warns that they are at risk of running out.  But it all makes sense when he catches her the next day trying to run away and he tells her what he knows about her husband. He didn’t tell her about the water stop because he already knew she could not be trusted.

I liked the shot of the yellow flag at the moment that Claire voice-overs about how they were “under quarantine”.  I don’t know nautical rules but I presume that’s what the yellow flag means.

Jamie in eyeglasses looking at photos of Brianna, while gently let by moon-light is almost as good as bare-chested Jamie, getting his wounds tended while gently-lit by fire-light.  Almost.

When Jamie poses the question “I’m ‘good and able’ now am I?” and turns around I love the look Marsali is giving him and his jolt of reaction when he sees her.  I’ll bet she looked a LOT like her mother at that particular moment.  I laughed.

Aaaaaand then Marsali sets Jamie straight about Fergus’ motivations and just like that all is forgiven (by me).  All those stank-eyes she’s been giving my girl Claire are forgotten and I am solidly on team Fersali.

“Thank you.  Mon fils.”  Awwwwwwwww.

Oh yay! They showed Annika and Claire tying up Claire’s shoes and her skirt – the one with the secret pockets – into a bundle for Claire to take with her over the side.  Thank you writers.  I was obsessing about how Claire manages to hang on to her possessions when she goes into the water.  It’s not clear to me if Claire is still carrying around her surgical instruments and secret supply of penicillin in her pockets but if she is, she’ll not lose them just yet.

 

THE BAD

Uh, that lecture Claire gave Elias about not licking his fingers after dipping them in grog made no sense.  I wrote more on this topic but it was gross and I think I’ll spare everyone.

I love Book!Claire’s tendency to curse and it amuses me that she occasionally shocks men by it – even sailors.  As much as I love Caitriona’s portrayal, her version of Claire is rather less “earthy” than the one that lives in my head and her cursing in this episode rang false to me.

Hmmmm.  I wish Claire could have figured out a way to get out of the Captain’s office and away from the cook without threatening to falsely accuse him of sexual assault.  Was that in the book?  I don’t recall it.  I guess you have to use the tools that are available to you and as one of only two women on board the threat of rape is an over-arching possibility for Claire (one that is clearly all too present in Jamie’s fevered mind).  But I hate the idea of Claire using Machiavellian logic (doing a bad thing for a good cause.)  Isn’t that the very topic she and Jamie debated late one night at the dining table in Paris?  Ultimately she didn’t falsely accuse him and perhaps she would never have done so.  Perhaps she was just clever enough to make him think she WAS capable of that.  But we’ll never know for sure.  It makes for an interesting contrast to the going-on on the Artemis where Fergus & Marsali finally get Jamie freed by revealing that he’s such an honorable man that he’d never break his word to the captain after giving it.

Um, why would anyone broach a cask of crème de menthe with an axe while it was sitting on its side in a warehouse surrounded by other casks?  Why would they broach that particular one?  That scene made NO sense.  The only fan-wank I can come up with is that what we saw on screen was Claire’s imagination -- not what really happened -- and that in reality there was some clue that something other than Crème de Menthe was in that cask when Sir Percival and his men came calling at Jamie’s warehouse after he fled Edinburgh.

I find it hard to believe that no one on deck noticed the spots prominently displayed on Elias’ arm.  You’d think that on a plague ship the crew would be positively obsessive about looking for signs of the disease on the men around them.  I suppose that we can fan-wank that with the epidemic on the wane the crew has relaxed its vigilance but still, that rank false.

The whole scene between Annika and Claire on the darkened deck also rang false to me.  Claire’s unwillingness to take this, her only chance of escape seemed completely out of character.  And while I loved Annika offering her assistance, I found her offering a purse full of money to be completely ridiculous.  The writers must need that money later as a plot point but it is unrealistic that someone like Annika would have money in the first place – especially mid-voyage (payment was probably made at the END of a voyage). Even if she did have coins it seems completely unreasonable to have her offering it up to someone who is almost a complete stranger.  I suppose we can fan-wank that Annika falsely supposes that Claire somehow saved her husband from the plague but still, to me, that scene was unrealistic.

 

THE UGLY

Jamie trying to bribe Fergus into helping him by offering to give his permission to marry Marsali – that makes my heart hurt.  I presume that scene was offered up as evidence that Jamie is not at all himself in that moment – that rage at Claire’s having been taken and fear for her safety are driving him a bit mad.  But damn, seeing Jamie saying those terrible things to Fergus and trying to bribe him – that was ugly.

I agree with just about everything here except that I didn't have any trouble buying Claire almost balking there at the end - falling 30 feet or so into a dark ocean is daunting and almost everyone would hesitate a little bit.  I also have no troubling buy  trouble buying Cait-as-Claire cursing.  Yesterday I was watching (well, listening to) the very first episode and she cursed like a sailor there.  

I hated that bit with Jamie, too, but it served two purposes.  First of all, it did, as you said, illustrate that he's just about out of his mind with fear and helplessness but it was also an opportunity to show that Fergus is a man of character and good judgement both to us and to Jamie.  I've loved Cesar Domboy as Fergus, even though I think he's too pretty but I mostly got over that in this episode.  This is the first time that I've really seen him as a grown man, rather than a pretty boy.  I'm also seeing some chemistry with Marsali, so that's a relief.  I love how fiesty she is. 

Edited November 19, 2017 by toolazy

[KatsaKriid]

What a great episode! I might be in the minority, but I thoroughly enjoyed every one of Claire's scenes on the Porpoise, much more than I did in the book. And poor Elias Pound. ? He was so precious. I just wanted to put in under my wing & nurture him & keep him safe, like a mama duck with her ducklings. I was really dreading his death & it was much more heartbreaking to watch as opposed to reading it. I kept waiting & hoping to see Claire's encounter with Lord John, but as someone else commented, it would not have translated well on the show. Unlike Claire, we the viewers, are not in the dark about Lord John's identity, so introducing him on the ship would probably detract from the surprise of his appareance in the coming episodes. 

Whoever wrote this episode needs to write them all! 

[GHScorpiosRule]

5 hours ago, KatsaKriid said:

Whoever wrote this episode needs to write them all! 

It was Luke Schelhaas. He’s got good cred-The Good Wife, Law & Order, Smallville (shutup, ‘twas a guid show!)

@WatchrTina, like @toolazy, I agreed wi’ 99% of your second long post-except Claire’s cursing or hesitation at jumping overboard at night, didn’t ring false. Neither did Anneke giving Claire her money-could be from previous voyages. And aside from treating her drinking sod of a husband, Claire stopped the Typhoid Fever from spreading.

”Thank you, Mon Fils”

Me: 

Edited November 20, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[GingerMarie]

Jamie and Fergus were spot on this week.  I understand why Jamie wanted to get out of the cell and I can see him using any means to get to that end.  I don't think he was intentionally trying to hurt Fergus, even though it was very obvious he did, he wanted Claire back.  Fergus is now a man in his own right.  No more living behind Jamie's shadow.  He stood up to the person he loves and has been dedicated to for years in order to save his life (Jamie), their friends lives and protect Marsali.  Also it is OK that Marsali has acne, she is a teenager.  She also knows her Daddy well enough to know that he always keeps his word.  Great scene. 

Claire on the Porpoise was perfect.  I do believe she thought the young Captain may relent and let her go and warn Jamie but she should have known better.  Everyone has an angle even the young Captain.  Elias was great and I do understand why Claire got on to him about eating the 'stuff' off his hands.  She was frustrated, people were dying and it was a struggle to get a handle on it.  And more important he still was only a young man.  I had no problem with her not wanting to jump off that ship.

I really enjoyed this episode.  Can't wait until next week. PEACE

[FnkyChkn34]

This episode was good, but it won't be one I repeatedly watch several times, like I have been for the recent episodes since their reunion. I give the writers kudos for making the worst part of the book watchable. 

I definitely liked Elias and don't remember him from the book, but knew he'd die. Because why wouldn't he...

[Eureka]

Even though I knew it was coming, I was so sad about Elias. And I loved Anneke, so happy they kept her in.

[toolazy]

Just now, FnkyChkn34 said:

This episode was good, but it won't be one I repeatedly watch several times, like I have been for the recent episodes since their reunion. I give the writers kudos for making the worst part of the book watchable. 

I definitely liked Elias and don't remember him from the book, but knew he'd die. Because why wouldn't he...

You know, they actually surprised me when they killed him off.  Even though I knew very well at the beginning of the episode that the book character was doomed, I managed to remain in denial about it until it was too late.  

[ruby24]

I thought this episode was super boring. 

Why the fuck did they cut Lord John Grey out? I was waiting for him the whole time, thinking he'd be the one thing that could make this stuff on the ship interesting.

[TaurusRose]

Poor little Elias Pound!  *sniff*

[millahnna]

I must have gotten further in this book than I thought.  I didn't recall it until it was happening but the Claire escape attempts x2 was definitely familiar.  I think I might have left off just as she was about to jump or just after.  The episode held my attention much better than the equivalent book material did. From here on out it should be all new information to me for the most part.  I'm weirdly more spoiled about later books than I am for Voyager.  Go figure.

 

Solid episode and loved the additions of the Jamie scenes; I'm starting to wonder if being trapped in Claire's viewpoint is part of my problem on this book and why I can't finish it.  I had a similar thing with the Hunger Games novels. As much as I hated the choice on Jamie's part, I like the writing of having him try to mutiny.  It's good to give him flaws and that one tracks as in character for me.  Dude can be pretty irrational about Claire.

 

TV Marsali is clicking for me way better than book one did so far.  I like how her trick to get Jamie out also involved tricking Jamie himself.

[Eureka]

I agree with whoever said TVClaire’s swearing doesn’t do it for them. I generally think Caitriona is doing a great job but from the very first utterance, I haven’t liked the way she delivers “Jesus H. Roosevelt Christ.” 

[GHScorpiosRule]

3 minutes ago, millahnna said:

TV Marsali is clicking for me way better than book one did so far.  I like how her trick to get Jamie out also involved tricking Jamie himself.

Though she didn’t call Claire a “hoor,” she did refer to her as “that woman of his” and so I’m still on the bench. Since they aged her up for the show, the twit needs to give Claire some respect.?

And I didn’t see her scene with Jamie as tricking him, but to make him think about someone other than Claire. That what Fergus did, was out of love for Jamie, not just her.

And I noticed that the reggae beat right after the last chords at the stones is gone.

And I REALLY love Jamie and Claire’s theme-it brings back memories of ”The Wedding”, plus I just love the music-you could hear it as Claire got ready to jump.

[FnkyChkn34]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Though she didn’t call Claire a “hoor,” she did refer to her as “that woman of his” and so I’m still on the bench. Since they aged her up for the show, the twit needs to give Claire some respect.?

And I didn’t see her scene with Jamie as tricking him, but to make him think about someone other than Claire. That what Fergus did, was out of love for Jamie, not just her.

I'm still not convinced they age her up very much. She's 18, max, because she's still an immature little twit.  

I agree, I didn't see her as tricking Jamie. I thought she was just the messenger to tell him that Fergus convinced the captain to let Jamie go. 

[Nidratime]

I could barely watch when they were sewing through the dead person's nose to ensure he was dead. Gah! If the guy wasn't dead, he sure would end up dead after that! Wasn't there something else they could do to ensure a person was dead?

And finally, a threatened rape is used for good rather than ill -- even if the ship's cook was really threatening to kill Claire rather than rape her. The fact that she used the neverending threat of rape to get the cook to back down, was a real twist on a major complaint about this show. In fact, I found it almost self-aware and amusing.

[dbell1]

Poor Elias. I cried when he called Claire "mother".  Anneka and her goats were pretty awesome too. Enjoyed that the crew were starting to respect Claire after she battled so had to save them.

Jamie looking at the photos was lovely. Hope they're waterproof. 

Not a fan of some of the plot holes. How are they going to get Claire and Marsali to the point of "mother Claire" when they haven't shown them together except for the "hoor" comments? 

[IntrovertGal]

9 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I thought this episode was super boring. 

Why the fuck did they cut Lord John Grey out? I was waiting for him the whole time, thinking he'd be the one thing that could make this stuff on the ship interesting.

I fully expected this episode to be boring, but I have to say I was more gripped than I would have thought. Kudos to the writers of the show for making this part of the book more interesting on screen. I think it definitely helped that we didn't only see Claire's perspective but also switched to Jamie and Fergus' storyline. I'm glad that Fergus kept a cool head and didn't carry out Jamie's harebrained plan.

I totally agree with you though about being disappointed in Lord John Grey being cut out. I was waiting for him to show up throughout the episode as well. I guess we will only see him again in Jamaica? The writers'd better not cut that out as well!

[FnkyChkn34]

3 hours ago, IntrovertGal said:

I fully expected this episode to be boring, but I have to say I was more gripped than I would have thought. Kudos to the writers of the show for making this part of the book more interesting on screen. I think it definitely helped that we didn't only see Claire's perspective but also switched to Jamie and Fergus' storyline. I'm glad that Fergus kept a cool head and didn't carry out Jamie's harebrained plan.

I totally agree with you though about being disappointed in Lord John Grey being cut out. I was waiting for him to show up throughout the episode as well. I guess we will only see him again in Jamaica? The writers'd better not cut that out as well!

If you've seen the previews, I think it's obvious that he hasn't been cut out.  But it did make sense to cut him from the ship, considering that they've gone back to using Fraser in the show, when they were using Malcolm in the books.

[Juliegirlj]

Well considering I fell asleep halfway through the episode- not loving this season. My biggest complaint is that Claire and Jamie have become not very likable characters. I hate that they are apart, but even when they were together I wasn't feeling the love they once shared. 

I do like adult Fergus, and did not like the way Jamie treated him at all. 

I so miss the days of Scotland, and feel like this season is a copycat version of Black Sails and Master and Commander. I don't even like the island version of the theme song......

[GHScorpiosRule]

21 minutes ago, Juliegirlj said:

Well considering I fell asleep halfway through the episode- not loving this season. My biggest complaint is that Claire and Jamie have become not very likable characters. I hate that they are apart, but even when they were together I wasn't feeling the love they once shared.

I feel like they are very flawed and human characters. I wonder if people expect them to just have their hands on each other all the time to convey their love? I recall some criticism last season due to their emotional distance as a result of Jamie's PTSD and Claire demanding that Jamie spare Black Jack, that their love wasn't there. They've been apart for 20 years. They have needed to adjust to the people they are now, and weren't together when the changes and growth they went through took place.  I think after a month at sea, before they were separated again, they're back in sync. But, as I said before, it seems Jamie and Claire have become a rorschach this season.

21 minutes ago, Juliegirlj said:

I do like adult Fergus, and did not like the way Jamie treated him at all. 

Jamie was out of his mind with fear of losing Claire again. This time, not by choice. Again, I saw that as a very human reaction. 

21 minutes ago, Juliegirlj said:

I so miss the days of Scotland, and feel like this season is a copycat version of Black Sails and Master and Commander.

This is an adaptation of a buik that was written close to 20 years ago. I saw a little bit of Black Sails but not the other, and I'm not seeing any resemblance. The only similarity is that with the cancellation of Black Sails, Ron Moore was able to use their ships.

Edited November 20, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[WatchrTina]

So I had a few more thoughts about this episode.  Isn't it interesting that in the last episode, when they spot the Man 'O War chasing them, Jamie immediately considers the possibility that he'll be pressed into service and orders Claire to keep looking for wee Ian if that happens.  Jamie's nobility rises immediately. He doesn't think about what being pressed might mean for him -- only what it will mean for those he cares about.  Contrast that with Jamie's reaction when Claire is taken instead.  He loses his damned mind (and I love him for it.)  No amount of "Hey we're all headed to Jamaica, relax, you'll see her again" can overcome his fear at Claire being alone on a ship full of disease and 400 sailors, with no friends or family around to protect her.  That's an 18th century man right there -- and one who's had the love of his life torn from him once before.  That reaction (and the foolish plotting and irrationality that follow) make perfect sense.  Protecting Claire is central to his identity.  Book!Jamie continued to pray every night that she should be safe, "She and the child."  Claire's safety is Jamie's hot button. We see a different side of Jamie when she is threatened.  Usually it's a purposeful, riding-to-the-rescue side of him.  But if you get in the way of this man-of-action when he is in that mode -- if you stop him from attempting a rescue, then yeah, Jamie-gone-mad emerges.  We saw him once before this season.  Remember when he had to swim to selkie island?  He knew, he absolutely KNEW that Claire probably wasn't there.  But he still had to do it.  And even though he didn't really expect to find her, the loss was so crushing he basically tries to commit suicide-by-cop, assaulting Lord John, taunting him about their first encounter, and then baring his neck.  He's an emotional guy, our Jamie is.  And I love him for it.

Edited November 20, 2017 by WatchrTina

[FnkyChkn34]

23 minutes ago, Juliegirlj said:

Well considering I fell asleep halfway through the episode- not loving this season. My biggest complaint is that Claire and Jamie have become not very likable characters. I hate that they are apart, but even when they were together I wasn't feeling the love they once shared. 

I do like adult Fergus, and did not like the way Jamie treated him at all. 

I so miss the days of Scotland, and feel like this season is a copycat version of Black Sails and Master and Commander. I don't even like the island version of the theme song......

Sorry, but I'm a bit confused.  You post practically the same comments in both the "book talk" and "no book talk" threads - have you read the books?  

[Nidratime]

Quote

I so miss the days of Scotland, and feel like this season is a copycat version of Black Sails and Master and Commander. I don't even like the island version of the theme song......

They've only been on the ships for two of the past 10 episodes and were in Scotland for much of the other eight that didn't involve Boston, so the season is not really a copycat of Black Sails and Master and Commander. As for the last two episodes, they're on ships, at similar periods of time as the two other stories, so there's going to be some similarity in regard to the problems, superstitions, and ways of doing things. But, this is the plot of the books, and it don't think they should change it just because there was also a show about ships and pirates which recently aired, or because of a popular series of books about 18th century life on ships. Besides, they'll be land lovers next season.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Nidratime

[FnkyChkn34]

2 minutes ago, Nidratime said:

They've only been on the ships for two of the past 10 episodes and were in Scotland for much of the other eight that didn't involve Boston, so the season is not really a copycat of Black Sails and Master and Commander. As for the last two episodes, they're on ships, at similar periods of time as the two other stories, so there's going to be some similarity in regard to the problems, superstitions, and ways of doing things. But, this is the plot of the books, and it don't think they should change it just because their was also a show about ships and pirates which recently aired or because of a popular series of books about 18th century life on ships. Besides, they'll be land lovers next season.

I second this.  And I'm pretty sure they'll be land lovers by the next episode, as well as next season.  (Black Sails was set in the 1710s, this is the 1760s.  Not sure it makes much difference, but 50 years can be a lot.  I've never even heard of Master and Commander so I can't comment there.)

[Nidratime]

I think Master and Commander was actually set from 1800 through the Napoleonic period. So, until about 1815? Same period in which Jane Austen's novels are set. I recall, when watching the movie Jane Austen's Book Club, that at the end of the movie, the group jokes that they should read the Master and Commander series of books since they're basically set around the same time.

[iMonrey]

Quote

Why the fuck did they cut Lord John Grey out?

How did he show up in the book?

This show is relentlessly depressing. Elias was the best character in the whole episode and they killed him off. I'm also getting sort of tired of the repetition of Claire and Jamie being torn from one another. We're three seasons in and this pattern has been repeated about a dozen times.

I'm not sure I understood what Claire's plan was when she tried to run away on the island. How is being left behind on Grand Turk going to help Jamie? Did she expect to board another ship from there and make her way to Jamaica? Wouldn't that just insure Jamie arrived there first? He might already be captured by the time she got there.

[Haleth]

10 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Im not sure I understood what Claire's plan was when she tried to run away on the island. How is being left behind on Grand Turk going to help Jamie? Did she expect to board another ship from there and make her way to Jamaica? Wouldn't that just insure Jamie arrived there first? He might already be captured by the time she got there.

I know!  It makes no sense to jump ship when the Porpoise was going to get there first anyway. 

Master and Commander is a wonderful movie.  Russell Crowe and Paul Betany.  I was sorry none of the other books in the series was adapted as a movie. 

[TaurusRose]

A few more things to add...Jamie sure looked yummy looking at Brianna’s pictures while wearing his specs and half open shirt. The secondary characters were all awesome, special shout out to the lad playing Elias. He was spectacular and so cute. I just wanted to pinch his cheeks. Even though a lot was going on I was getting tired of Claire. I’m sorry, but she no longer appeals to me, although I have no complaints about her being hesitant about jumping into the water from that height at night. I’m adoring Fergus and Marsali is a little more tolerable. 

[Nidratime]

Since the Porpoise was traveling faster and was ahead of the Artemis, I think Claire wants to get to Jamaica free of the British Navy, so she can figure out a way to either warn the Artemis before they make port or convince the authorities that they have the wrong person. The former, more than the latter. 

[FnkyChkn34]

17 minutes ago, Haleth said:

I know!  It makes no sense to jump ship when the Porpoise was going to get there first anyway. 

Because she was now their prisoner.  No one would have let her just stroll around Jamaica waiting for Jamie to show up so she could warn him.  The Captain made that clear.  

33 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

How did he show up in the book?

The Porpoise is transporting Lord Grey to Jamaica to be its new Governor.  He's their "special cargo" discussed in the books, but never mentioned on the show.

[Biggie B]

I liked this episode. Add me to the long list of people who found Elias Pound extraordinarily compelling. The young man who played him turned in a fine bit of acting. I felt very invested in this child, for that's what he was, who bore the heavy weight of an adult's responsibilities under the worst conditions imaginable. His death was terribly sad and the scene where Claire stitched the canvas closed was heartbreaking. A short, brutal life punctuated by small moments of kindness - perhaps that's the best he could have hoped for after all.

I don't like the opening theme music infused with the Caribbean beat, even though I understand why it's being done. It just doesn't work for me, but it'll change in due course. 

How will Claire's stash of 20th century penicillin survive its time in the water? Did she transport it in a sealed glass container? I wouldn't think she'd have brought something plastic back with her. In the books, I thought  it wasn't until they were in the states that she first conjured up a batch of penicillin, but having not read the books in years, I'm probably not remembering that correctly. Maybe it's the anesthesia I'm thinking of.

I find the young captain of the Porpoise extremely handsome - right now, he's been my go-to eye candy! /shallow/

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, Biggie B said:

How will Claire's stash of 20th century penicillin survive its time in the water? Did she transport it in a sealed glass container? I wouldn't think she'd have brought something plastic back with her. In the books, I thought  it wasn't until they were in the states that she first conjured up a batch of penicillin, but having not read the books in years, I'm probably not remembering that correctly. Maybe it's the anesthesia I'm thinking of.

I don't recall if she had penicillin in the buiks, but yes, in addition to ether, she did "grow" penicillin as well in her home.

[FnkyChkn34]

In the books, her stash of penicillin didn't end up lasting long.  She gave it to Jamie when he was shot, and then IIRC, he made her take some when she got a huge gash in her... arm?  Right before the turtle soup scene?  And I think that was the last of it.  So I guess somehow, it just magically survives.  It looked to be in a vial or something when she used it on Jamie.

[IntrovertGal]

3 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

If you've seen the previews, I think it's obvious that he hasn't been cut out.  But it did make sense to cut him from the ship, considering that they've gone back to using Fraser in the show, when they were using Malcolm in the books.

Can you tell me to which previews you are referring?

[Nidratime]

I don't recall Claire using the penicillin on herself, but she does use it on someone else besides Jamie ... and that would be Young Ian. 

[toolazy]

30 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

In the books, her stash of penicillin didn't end up lasting long.  She gave it to Jamie when he was shot, and then IIRC, he made her take some when she got a huge gash in her... arm?  Right before the turtle soup scene?  And I think that was the last of it.  So I guess somehow, it just magically survives.  It looked to be in a vial or something when she used it on Jamie.

She had some left over that she was going to use on the kid who was betrothed to Lizzie but got VD in a brothel.   I think. I might be confusing that with some of her home-grown crop.

[FnkyChkn34]

12 minutes ago, IntrovertGal said:

Can you tell me to which previews you are referring?

The ball/gala where they are all dressed up.  There are a lot of promo photos that they've already released.