S15.E07: Burden of Proof

[MyAimIsTrue]

After a convicted felon swears the NCIS agency framed him for murder a decade ago, Gibbs begins his own investigation, starting with a new autopsy by Ducky. Also, Senior FBI Agent Fornell joins the team, since he was the lead investigator in the original joint FBI and NCIS case.

[Sarnia]

Fornell is back! Yay! I think I'll be happy with just Gibbs and Fornell (maybe Ducky, although Jimmy is shaping up nicely as a replacement) and everyone else gone.

[MyAimIsTrue]

Holy shit, I did not see that ending coming.  Best episode of the season, maybe of the past few seasons.

[Katy M]

I don't think I liked this episode.  Jack annoyed me with the profiling/pedicure gift.  That almost seems like bullying.

I've lost all respect for Fornell.  Wasn't Gibbs's testimony 100% hearsay.  The state should have been allowed to cross examine witness X.  I don't know that it would have done any good, but that's not the point.  

It was nice seeing Ducky.   And I did like the surprise at the end, but the earlier stuff ruined it for me.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Katy M

[betsyboo]

1 hour ago, MyAimIsTrue said:

Holy shit, I did not see that ending coming.  Best episode of the season, maybe of the past few seasons.

I didn't either until the chocolate ice cream screw up. man, the genius Jack got it wrong. A sociopath who can fool the cops! who knew!?

Fornell. I could cry. I can't believe he is finally back and now he's competely broken. I need to see the fallout, tho - don't just leave us hanging! Poor Emily. I'm relieved that he admitted he dropped the dime - I was worried he wouldn't be redeemed. (Not saying I am cutting him any slack, just that at least I can root for him still.)

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I've lost all respect for Fornell.  Wasn't Gibbs's testimony 100% hearsay.  The state should have been allowed to cross examine witness X.  I don't know that it would have done any good, but that's not the point.  

I was wondering that, too. But according to my Law & Order degree ... I think him testifying to the "African-American in his 40s" was hearsay, but the smoking gun was that he could testify that the FBI withheld evidence, meaning Hicks didn't get a fair trial. (?? I'm sure my McCoy J.D. will fail me...)

I have stated this before, but if you had told me two years ago that I would be enjoying WV on a show that I love, I would have spit in your face. Hunh. 

[roseha]

I actually was speculating during the show that the only interesting ending would be - the one they actually did.  I was hoping that this story won't be dropped especially since there are multiple murders to still solve (which also means double jeopardy would not apply...Law and Order correct?)

Maybe they are leading up to Gibbs and Fornell solving the rest of it together, which in a way would help redeem Fornell for withholding what he knew (regardless of the fact that he didn't believe the witness).  This isn't the first time on this show, but it seems to me that Fornell's past behavior was really not in character for him.  But NCIS hasn't let that stop them before...

Still it was interesting and I hope there's a follow up with Gibbs and Fornell catching the guy.

[DrScottie]

16 minutes ago, roseha said:

I actually was speculating during the show that the only interesting ending would be - the one they actually did.  I was hoping that this story won't be dropped especially since there are multiple murders to still solve (which also means double jeopardy would not apply...Law and Order correct?)

Double jeopardy would only apply to the murder of the lieutenant as that was all he was charged for. So, he can be charged for the other three murders.   

2 hours ago, betsyboo said:

I have stated this before, but if you had told me two years ago that I would be enjoying WV on a show that I love, I would have spit in your face. Hunh. 

He's gotten better. I couldn't stand him when he first joined.  

Edited November 8, 2017 by DrScottie

[roseha]

6 minutes ago, DrScottie said:

Double jeopardy would only apply to the murder of the lieutenant as that was all he was charged for. So, he can be charged for the other three murders.   

Yes, you're right, I didn't express that very well.  I am sure that Law and Order has gotten around some double jeopardy situations in a similar manner with convicting someone on another murder.

Edited November 8, 2017 by roseha

[VinceW]

On 11/7/2017 at 9:02 PM, Katy M said:

I don't think I liked this episode.  Jack annoyed me with the profiling/pedicure gift.  That almost seems like bullying.

I've lost all respect for Fornell.  Wasn't Gibbs's testimony 100% hearsay.  The state should have been allowed to cross examine witness X.  I don't know that it would have done any good, but that's not the point.  

It was nice seeing Ducky.   And I did like the surprise at the end, but the earlier stuff ruined it for me.

After the winter hiatus, I expect that the series will be retitled - "NCIS:Profile".  If it walks and talks, Sloane has a profile of them in that wooden file cabinet. After just 3 episodes, the profile theme has been overdone. Every murder case going forward will have a link to a serial killer in order that Sloane gets involved and she gets a chance to analyze the team members. The lawyer primary defense of the killer was that he was in the wrong place at the wrong time should have been a red flag to the team right away.  The story needs a Delilah diversion to get back on track. She must be on complete bed rest for the whole pregnancy.  Only one scene with Tim and Delilah, as yet, this season after 7 episodes. Disappointing.

Edited November 10, 2017 by VinceW

[UncleChuck]

14 minutes ago, roseha said:

Double jeopardy would only apply to the murder of the lieutenant as that was all he was charged for. So, he can be charged for the other three murders.   

I am not a lawyer, but I think that he could be retried for the lieutenant's murder depending on what actually happened in that courtroom after Gibbs' testimony.  If the verdict (guilty) was simply vacated due to the FBI's refusal to share evidence with the defense, and the accused was not found "not guilty" nor the charges dismissed, I have heard of cases in which the prosecutor can elect to bring charges again and begin a new trial from the beginning.   It's possible that the state has not conceded that the guy was innocent, only that some testimony used in the first trial was tainted, and a new trial can proceed, clearly avoiding the mistakes of the first one.  Of course, many prosecutors will choose to not bring new charges, unless they believe they can win a conviction.  Without some totally NEW evidence, it would be nearly impossible to convict the guy, but a retrial might be possible. 

 

At any rate, with Gibbs and Fornell on the case, that smirking asshole will not be grinning for long.

[UncleChuck]

16 minutes ago, VinceW said:

The story needs a Delilah diversion to get back on track. She must be on bed rest for the whole pregnancy.  Only one scene with Tim and Delilah as yet this season after 7 episodes. Disappointing.

I like the team in action, and I enjoy that Bishop, Torres and McGhee cannot quite figure out Jack Sloane.

I don't give a fig about Delilah or her pregnancy or Jimmy's family or Bishop's brothers.  I didn't like the drama with Ziva's dad, or the foolishness with Tony Senior, and I didn't care for the forced backstory of Gibbs and Jenny.   I don't want McGhee's sister accused of crimes or Abby's brothers involved in shenanagins.  Let's just focus on interesting COWs and leave the soap opera stuff for Shonda Rimes.

[twoods]

Gah with that ending, and the smirk on that asshole's face. To think that I felt sorry for him! He must have scared the crap out of Mary Smith for her to lie like that. I guess Fornell's gut trumps Gibbs'. I hope they nail him for the other murders. I feel sorry for the lawyer when she finds out she was defending a serial killer and let him walk out of prison.

[VinceW]

12 hours ago, UncleChuck said:

......I don't give a fig about Delilah or her pregnancy or Jimmy's family or Bishop's brothers.  I didn't like the drama with Ziva's dad, or the foolishness with Tony Senior, and I didn't care for the forced backstory of Gibbs and Jenny.   I don't want McGee's sister accused of crimes or Abby's brothers involved in shenanigans.  Let's just focus on interesting COWs and leave the soap opera stuff for Shonda Rimes.

I don't give a fig that 

12 hours ago, VinceW said:

.......Every murder case going forward will have a link to a serial killer in order that Sloane gets involved and she gets a chance to analyze the team members.

Aside from the baby, Delilah is a top defense intelligence analyst and well respected by Director Vance. She has good chemistry with Gibbs, Abby, Bishop and Reeves. The past crossover cases that included Delilah working with NCIS have been good COWs for the most part. At this point,, Delilah makes more sense as a show regular than Sloane. IMO.

Edited November 8, 2017 by VinceW

[MyAimIsTrue]

9 hours ago, betsyboo said:

I didn't either until the chocolate ice cream screw up.

I guess I missed that.  What was the ice cream screw up?

[crazycatlady58]

14 minutes ago, MyAimIsTrue said:

I guess I missed that.  What was the ice cream screw up?

When they first talked with him he said when he was young and his team lost a baseball  game his dad would  take him out and they would  have to scoops  of vanilla  ice cream .  He said his father  had died so  even  if he got out that  would  never happen .  When he got out he told them he was  going out have have to scoops  of chocolate  ice cream and right his dad a letter. 

Edited November 8, 2017 by crazycatlady58

[Katy M]

I was so focused on the hearsay aspect of Gibbs's testimony that I forgot to mention that I found it really, really, really odd that a defense attorney would put a witness on the stand with zero idea of what he had to say.  Seriously.  She is pretty sure he found witness X.  But, maybe she described her client.  maybe Gibbs was hiding it because she said that the defendant had intimidated her.  That could have gone very badly for her client.

[tootsie]

Just wondering...why would the witness maintain her false identification? The guy's in prison and if she told Gibbs the truth that he really was the guy she saw, wouldn't she be ensuring that he STAYED in prison and couldn't come after her? Or maybe she worried that she'd get in trouble because she didn't tell the truth to the FBI the first time around? I liked this episode but some parts of it didn't fall into line for me. (But am used to ignoring my "credulity-meter" when I watch.) Was starting to adjust to Sloane but the whole pedicure/feet thing just seemed off to me. Concur with those who have said this season is better than last, however. 

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, tootsie said:

Just wondering...why would the witness maintain her false identification? The guy's in prison and if she told Gibbs the truth that he really was the guy she saw, wouldn't she be ensuring that he STAYED in prison and couldn't come after her? Or maybe she worried that she'd get in trouble because she didn't tell the truth to the FBI the first time around? I liked this episode but some parts of it didn't fall into line for me. (But am used to ignoring my "credulity-meter" when I watch.) Was starting to adjust to Sloane but the whole pedicure/feet thing just seemed off to me. Concur with those who have said this season is better than last, however. 

I don't mean to be ageist, but another possibility is that she has dementia and her fake story became her real memory.

[enoughcats]

8 hours ago, twoods said:

I feel sorry for the lawyer when she finds out she was defending a serial killer and let him walk out of prison.

Or she becomes victim #5.

42 minutes ago, tootsie said:

The guy's in prison and if she told Gibbs the truth that he really was the guy she saw, wouldn't she be ensuring that he STAYED in prison and couldn't come after her?

 

37 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't mean to be ageist, but another possibility is that she has dementia and her fake story became her real memory.

Or she was telling the truth as it applied to that murder.  They did introduce a character that fit the description, who also had access to those shopping bags:  the owner of the paint store.  

Which brings up the question, about the kid in the paint store, how many years earlier did 'that' murder happen?  That was a lot of tree growth hiding the license.  At least ten????

I do have a way for Abby to come to the rescue:  a composite fingerprint from the blood on the other drivers' licenses that weren't so degraded by weather.   

The Gibbs in the courtroom seemed insufficient to set aside a murder conviction.  And did Jack's profiling do any good at all in this one?    

I have so missed Fornell and I was distressed that they were bringing him back to destroy him. (Insert half sigh of relief.)

[Katy M]

7 minutes ago, enoughcats said:

The Gibbs in the courtroom seemed insufficient to set aside a murder conviction. 

I know.  Mary Elaine Smith said she saw a different man in the van."  "Did you believe her?"  "Yes."  "Case closed."  Eye roll.

[honeydo7]

That serial killer may not be a free man for long. He doesn't realize Gibbs will be watching his every move.  And when that crazy, SOB tries murdering another victim........his attorney, the shop owner, witness x , or a team member.... he's going to be taken out, in hail of bullets.

[eel2178]

19 hours ago, MyAimIsTrue said:

Holy shit, I did not see that ending coming.  

I thought it was going to end with Gibbs fixing Sloane's cabinet drawers for her.

15 hours ago, roseha said:

Maybe they are leading up to Gibbs and Fornell solving the rest of it together, which in a way would help redeem Fornell for withholding what he knew (regardless of the fact that he didn't believe the witness).  This isn't the first time on this show, but it seems to me that Fornell's past behavior was really not in character for him.  But NCIS hasn't let that stop them before...

Still it was interesting and I hope there's a follow up with Gibbs and Fornell catching the guy.

Were any of the other victims in the military? I don't see how it would be Gibbs' and Fornell's jurisdiction to solve the other cases.

[eel2178]

14 hours ago, twoods said:

Gah with that ending, and the smirk on that asshole's face. To think that I felt sorry for him! He must have scared the crap out of Mary Smith for her to lie like that.

Did he scare her into it, or was he the one who bought her the annuity that was providing her with monthly income for life?

[betsyboo]

9 hours ago, MyAimIsTrue said:

I guess I missed that.  What was the ice cream screw up?

He had told the sob story to Gibbs when being interviewed in lock up. "Dad took me for two scoops of vanilla after baseball...He died last year and they wouldn't let me go to the funeral..." Trial is over, Hicks goes to thank Gibbs and says "I don't know what to do first." Gibbs replied- "maybe start with some ice cream." Hicks replied "yup, two scoops of chocolate."  DUN DUN DUNHHHHHH

46 minutes ago, eel2178 said:

I thought it was going to end with Gibbs fixing Sloane's cabinet drawers for her.

Me, too! Esp when she threw her keys - I thought - ooh, he's going to fix them overnight!

[roseha]

53 minutes ago, eel2178 said:

Did he scare her into it, or was he the one who bought her the annuity that was providing her with monthly income for life?

I don't see how he had anything to do with the annuity correct? Her nephew I think it was Ray was cashing the checks because the store owner didn't pay him enough?  I don't remember if Gibbs actually told her that Hicks was in prison?  

I think the idea of the killer really being the store owner will probably turn out to be a red herring to lead us off.  This doesn't seem like the kind of crime that would have collaborators, and it's pretty clear they are after Hicks after his lie and turning out to be a switch hitter.

[JunebugWA]

Really, show? You have to go and ruin my favorite character, Fornell, by having him withholding evidence? Seriously? You ran out of people to screw with?

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, JunebugWA said:

Really, show? You have to go and ruin my favorite character, Fornell, by having him withholding evidence? Seriously? You ran out of people to screw with?

I also kind of feel like show was saying it was OK, because, hey, Fornell had instincts and it turned out he was right.  But, no, it wasn't OK.  If he thought she was lying, he should have dug deeper to find out why.  Or, found proof that she was lying.

[TheGreenWave]

On ‎11‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 11:14 AM, Katy M said:

I know.  Mary Elaine Smith said she saw a different man in the van."  "Did you believe her?"  "Yes."  "Case closed."  Eye roll.

 

14 hours ago, Katy M said:

I also kind of feel like show was saying it was OK, because, hey, Fornell had instincts and it turned out he was right.  But, no, it wasn't OK.  If he thought she was lying, he should have dug deeper to find out why.  Or, found proof that she was lying.

YES!  So many missed opportunities to make this a really good episode, but this is what we got? Hearsay and Fornell as corrupt agent??!  FORNELL?!?  It's not as though this is an original storyline, but geez.  And, they had to have both Duckie and Palmer lead the investigation awry with the conclusion that the murderer had to be left handed?  Bring Duckie back for THAT?!!  Woosh.  Sorry for all the exclamation points....

Also, I've tried to give Jack a chance...but I just do not like her character.  She makes no sense in the group.  And, I'm really getting tired of the "team" acting like a bunch of kids around her (oh, I hope she's not profiling meeeee!).  And, yeah, the "self pedicure" thing was completely inappropriate to say to a coworker.

[Loves2Dance]

I watch Criminal Minds for profiling, not NCIS---I am so over Jack's character and it's been what, 3 weeks? 

[ForReal]

Well, I thought the guy in prison was probably guilty because he just seemed so smarmy...wouldn't hold up in court, but perhaps it was my gut speaking. I was sad that Fornell was shown to have done something so wrong, and it's not justified by his instincts being right or fixed by his telling the defense attorney Witness X had been found. I'm sure Gibbs and Fornell will work together for justice on this one.

Yeah, it felt like they let so many investigative details fall by the wayside so that they could have a new ongoing villain to battle. Yawn. I'm not sure if Mary was telling the truth and the paint store man (or some other man) will turn out to be involved, or if she lied all this time and if so, why. So many questions left unasked, let alone answered. I'm sure this case will come up again.

[Clanstarling]

On 11/7/2017 at 6:00 PM, MyAimIsTrue said:

Holy shit, I did not see that ending coming.  Best episode of the season, maybe of the past few seasons.

I agree. Though I think the one with the little girl who killed her mother was pretty good (that was Millie Bobby Smith of Stranger Things, right?).

On 11/8/2017 at 7:15 AM, tootsie said:

Just wondering...why would the witness maintain her false identification? The guy's in prison and if she told Gibbs the truth that he really was the guy she saw, wouldn't she be ensuring that he STAYED in prison and couldn't come after her? Or maybe she worried that she'd get in trouble because she didn't tell the truth to the FBI the first time around? I liked this episode but some parts of it didn't fall into line for me. (But am used to ignoring my "credulity-meter" when I watch.) Was starting to adjust to Sloane but the whole pedicure/feet thing just seemed off to me. Concur with those who have said this season is better than last, however. 

I kept wondering why they weren't looking into her annuity. There was money being paid to her (though her nephew was the one who cashed the checks) and she specifically said she didn't want that money. It seemed to me, like they always say on tv shows, they should follow the money. As we saw at the end, she was not telling the truth. At the time Fornell questioned her, she probably was scared and his gut would have been right. 

On 11/8/2017 at 1:23 PM, eel2178 said:

Were any of the other victims in the military? I don't see how it would be Gibbs' and Fornell's jurisdiction to solve the other cases.

They'd be in Fornell's jurisdiction, though. If he's not forcibly retired from the FBI.

On 11/8/2017 at 1:31 PM, eel2178 said:

Did he scare her into it, or was he the one who bought her the annuity that was providing her with monthly income for life?

I think it's both. She was clearly scared into it at first. Since her lie didn't work, I'm a little fuzzy on whether she was getting it all along, or whether it might have started as a lead up to him getting his hearing (or re-trial). He did say his father had died a year before - maybe that's where the annuity came from? I don't know. I think there was something left on the cutting room floor in favor of werewolf feet and stuck drawers.

And yes, while I kind of like Jack, they're putting her front and center way too much.

But it was lovely to see Ducky and Fornell.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Clanstarling

[basiltherat]

I don't care jack for Jack.

[mythoughtis]

This is who Fornell was when he was first introduced to the show. He was not a nice guy.  He and Gibbs developed  a relationship over time, but that was because  Fornell changed.  

[UncleChuck]

3 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

On 11/7/2017 at 8:00 PM, MyAimIsTrue said:

Holy shit, I did not see that ending coming.  Best episode of the season, maybe of the past few seasons.

I agree. Though I think the one with the little girl who killed her mother was pretty good (that was Millie Bobby Smith of Stranger Things, right?).

Almost right.  The little girl was played by Millie Bobby Brown of Stranger Things.

[Clanstarling]

34 minutes ago, UncleChuck said:

Almost right.  The little girl was played by Millie Bobby Brown of Stranger Things.

Oops...the one time I don't bother to check.... I love that girl. She's such a great actress.

1 hour ago, mythoughtis said:

This is who Fornell was when he was first introduced to the show. He was not a nice guy.  He and Gibbs developed  a relationship over time, but that was because  Fornell changed.  

You're right, I think I noticed, then brushed it away. I was wanting to see the Fornell we all love. Didn't quite get there (except for him admitting he dropped the dime on himself), but it was a good character piece.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Clanstarling

[GHScorpiosRule]

5 hours ago, mythoughtis said:

This is who Fornell was when he was first introduced to the show. He was not a nice guy.  He and Gibbs developed  a relationship over time, but that was because  Fornell changed.  

Right. He was a territorial Fed who was a jerk.  The friendship was a retcon. They didn’t know each other in the pilot. Then when Spano was brought back, they added that the friction was that both were married to Diane.

[Notwisconsin]

i didn't like the 'twist' a the end. It was too pat. The good guys are right even if they're wrong....sheesh!!!! The guy was innocent.

[Katy M]

16 minutes ago, Notwisconsin said:

i didn't like the 'twist' a the end. It was too pat. The good guys are right even if they're wrong....sheesh!!!! The guy was innocent.

Wasn't the point that the guy wasn't innocent and that Fornell was right all along? Honestly, I agree with you, that I didn't really like the twist. Fornell didn't follow the rules because of his "gut" which is terrible reasoning. There's a reason there are trials and juries and the cops just don't get to say "hey, you're guilty because I 'think you're guilty" and throw you in jail.  

[webruce]

Well I did think that something was up with the paint shop owner, Denny Rydell(per IMDB) or I think he was called "Pop". Per my notes. But he could have been driving the blue van of Gabriel Hicks for some reason. Then stopped and stiff armed "Witness X", Mary Elaine Smith. He could have been doing something else illegal 11 years ago. Selling paint to sniffers maybe?  Or drugs? But someone intimidated her. Not sure about the checks that Ray is cashing. But It did seem awful easy for Abby to track down Mary. She tried to sell to him oranges and he left.

Did I miss it about NCIS Agent Mason? Wasn't he the one who had the case originally with FBI Agent Fornell? Is he dead? Or just hiding in retirement? But wouldn't they have brought him in to ask about the case? It is bad that Tobias dropped the dime. And yes that evidence should have been presented originally. I also agree with others that they would have interrogated Witness X and probably Fornell.

I am glad that Gibbs told all the truth in court. I feel bad for Fornell and Jessica Shaeffer. I was surprised that the "NCIS lied" defense story went away fast. Vance didn't say we must have screwed up. But Fornell being right but the wrong way did throw me off. Was surprised that Gibbs told Fornell to leave.

  Lt. Edward O'Connell body seemed to be in good shape for 11 years in the ground. Just comparing it to other bodies that were dug up on other shows. But nice to see Ducky back. Yes the hit on the left threw me off a little. But the baseball talk by Gabriel Hicks, should have thrown up a red flag. I must be slipping, or Gibbs is. Then the snear at the end as he bats left in the cage as Gibbs and Bishop watched, made me long for the old Gibbs who would have sniped him, lol. But you know Gibbs will double the efforts to put him away. Then he and Fornell can handle him roughly as they cuff his butt.

Agent Sloane is growing on me slowly. True she isn't needed in every case, but some yes. She left Gibbs with the keys to her office, that kind of matches what he did to her at his home when he left. I think when he is thinking over the case, he will fix her cabinet drawers. The case of Nick, Bishop, Jimmy and Tim all worrying about what is in the cabinet is a little over done. But Nick is stirring that up. And I wonder if the grooming kit from Jack to Nick is kind of a play on the story he made up about Bishops feet? I know I have a friend who studied Psychology in College  and used to tell us she studies us. It would make me wonder what she thought and make me change sometimes my actions to see if I could throw off her perceptions. Also it made me study her, lol.

Nice that Tim found the drivers license on the sign. I have seen no parking signs grown into trees like that. I at first found it unbelievable that after 11 years they would find anything else. But it matches up to the 4 other unsolved murders. Hopefully the do the blood smear test, or find other evidence on the old cases to match it to Hicks.

Sloane should wear the same hat like this picture from Prime Suspect. If picture is not allowed here is link. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2032021/mediaviewer/rm3929128192

Edited November 21, 2017 by webruce
added address.

[UncleChuck]

On 11/8/2017 at 3:23 PM, eel2178 said:

I thought it was going to end with Gibbs fixing Sloane's cabinet drawers for her.

Gibbs should probably stay out of Sloane's drawers...

[eel2178]

4 hours ago, UncleChuck said:

Gibbs should probably stay out of Sloane's drawers...

How else will he learn her natural hair color?