S03.E08: First Wife

[Athena]

Quote

Claire returns to Lallybroch with Jamie, where she does not receive quite the reception she was expecting. Unbeknownst to her, Jamie's made some choices in their time apart which come back to haunt them with a vengeance.

Reminder: This is the No Book Talk topic. No discussion of the books is allowed including saying "in the books..." Book readers are discouraged from posting and liking in this thread. Posts may be removed without warning.

[cam3150]

Thank you, Claire, for finally pointing out to Jamie that he practically forced you to go through the stones before Culloden. It's bugged me every time he's thrown that in her face, like she just abandoned him or something. She begged to stay, more than once, and he wouldn't hear it. Because of Brianna it was the right choice but he needs to stop acting like Claire "left" him. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

So Jamie swam out to the tower where Jon Snow was born?

Ewwww, the angry fight that turns into sex is my least favorite cliche. So gross. Thank goodness Jenny came in and threw water on them.

Jamie saying he would lie or do worse to keep Claire, ugh. Keep justifying your lies and deception, man.

And Leghair? Great. How long before she reports Jamie for having a gun or accuses Claire of being a witch or otherwise causes trouble for the people at Lallybroch?

Edited November 7, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[nara]

WTF and WTF!

Laoghaire--of all people?!!! I might actually prefer an incestuous affair with Jenny to that!  Almost.

At least her children seem sweet.  However, the lack of aging the actors  stands out even more next to young Ian and Laoghaire's older daughter, who are clearly not young enough to be their children.  Jenny looked like she could be in her early 40's but not old enough.

At first, I was annoyed by Jenny's behavior towards Claire, but she's right.  Jamie is enough trouble on his own, but Jamie + Claire is a typhoon and a tsunami combined!  Could they not wait a couple of weeks to get the jewels, rather than sending a teenager out to do their work?  First Fergus looses and hand, now young Ian is kidnapped by who knows whom?  

Edited November 5, 2017 by nara

[Daisy]

So basically Jaime was the Frank in his marriage, but for a sadder reason if Laoghaire was afraid of being touched.

I always try to look on both sides of the ledger here. Jaime was completely wrong in not telling Claire when he had the opening to. But I do think he's right that had Claire known it was Laoghaire, she would have probably closed up and walked away. And I do feel that's how it played off in this confrontation. she was hurt that he didn't tell her, but she was pissed off that it was Laoghaire, or that's how i saw Catriona play it off anyway. I do like it that Claire is having doubts about coming back, and both of them acknowledging that they have become completely different people in the 20 years they've been apart. 

The "we're fighting, no we're gonna have sex" thing... It wouldn't have bothered me so much, if Claire hadn't been saying no so adamantly. For the first time I really wondered if Jaime would have been pretty much a "man of the times" and forced Claire into having sex because of it was right right. that truly truly bugged. the timing this season is impeccable.  While it was the first time they actually got cold water on them, that's been happening for the most part since Claire reached Edinburgh 

Jenny v. Claire v. Jaime. again this is how I feel the show is getting everyone's tones right. Jenny is right - the Claire we know (and she knew) wouldn't let heaven and earth keep her away from Jaime. However the reason why (even if we remove the "stones") - is completely legitimate.  If she thought he was dead  and considering all the drama they tend to generate her being in America would have been the best thing for Ian + Jenny. (as well as Jaime thinking the same thing going w/his cover story). 

However Jenny is so astute she knows that they are hiding something, and i think it's evident that Jenny wouldn't question things if you just tell her the truth. (ie: the potatoes). As she pointed to Claire, she's clearly hiding something and the fact that she (they) are is why Jenny can't open up and trust her again.  I don't even know if telling her the truth would truly help relations (though i think the underlying issue is here, that she mourned for Claire too, but unlike Jaime it's like, well whatever, she can leave again, why open myself up). 

and honestly. Jaime needs to stop making it sound that Claire chose to leave him. She didn't, and would have gladly gone to Lallybrock (why wasn't that ever an option anyway?) and raise Brianna with Jenny, Ian and the others. they are here based on decisions they both made, and Jaime decided. He needs to accept his decision and get over it quite frankly. 
 

I wonder who took Ian. And why they were on that island to begin with. I doubt it was just for the coins. 

[tennisgurl]

When will Jamie learn that, no matter how pathetic or occasionally fun as Laoghaire can be, she is also THE WORST, and she will always be The Worst. She turns into a total Crazy Bitch every time Claire shows up, how did he not see this coming? She almost got the love of his life burned at the stake! I get that Jamie was sad and wanted to be a husband/father again, and her kids seem sweet, but come on! Anyone but her! 

Young Ian is my favorite new character, he is just adorable. I love how much he clearly adores his "cool" Aunt Claire. "Aunt Claire killed a man! Killed him good!" He better be alright damn it! How much trauma is this family going to have to go through? 

I think Claire might have romanticized her time in the past a bit over the last 20 years. I mean, "I never imagined it would be this hard"? Does she not remember ANYTHING that happened in the past? Shit went down, like, every week! Did she just space on the multiple murders, rapes, tortures, the witch trail, the wars, the miscarriage, plagues, and every other crazy thing thats happened to them? All thing considered, an attempted rape, accidental murder, fire, second wife, and in law awkwardness is pretty mild! 

I was so happy to see Ned! I miss you Ned! 

[Auj]

Okay, I have been wondering if anyone was going to stop lying and telling stories. Here it is. Finally. And Laogharie! Who tried to get old Claire burned at the stake with Gellis. Now did Jamie know that about the Witch Trial? I am sorry, I don’t remember. Seems like years ago. It was!  And then, she shoots Jamie. Okay, I was screaming laughing.? And then I was thinking, oh, they are serious here. I guess I am not supposed to be laughing. Well, to me, all those lies will come back and bit you in the buns. And they certainly did!

Oh, and look it’s Ned. A sensible, intelligent man. Come to clean up another mess. Yeah, Ned! I am, of course, a great admirer of Jenny, who has to be one of the few people with any sense (And Ned!) (And Murtaugh❤️) in the whole series.  Why is it that the characters that I like I rarely see, Diana Author? Also Diana, you also have killed off lots of my favorites as well. In their places you have put in lots of dull boring ones!  Well, truth be told, I am always missing the first season. As time goes on, I feel so blessed to have them on DVD. NO! Not Black Jack. Too evil. I hope I am not going to get a nasty surprise further down the road and Hello, it’s Black Jack again!!! I have heard that, oh no, Black Jack is really dead. Yeah, so was Spock. (RIP Leonard Nimoy❤️).

[ElectricBoogaloo]

7 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Does she not remember ANYTHING that happened in the past? Shit went down, like, every week! Did she just space on the multiple murders, rapes, tortures, the witch trail, the wars, the miscarriage, plagues, and every other crazy thing thats happened to them? All thing considered, an attempted rape, accidental murder, fire, second wife, and in law awkwardness is pretty mild! 

Ha, this made me laugh so hard because IT’S TRUE!

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Crazy weekend - I finally got a chance to relax and watch this last night. 

I don't know - maybe it's just me, but I was pretty underwhelmed by the whole reveal of who the second wife was.  From the moment in the last ep when it was confirmed that Jamie had another wife, to the title of this ep, I knew it was going to come out and that we'd find out who it was and probably see who it was, so it was just a matter of waiting for it to happen. 

I see Laoghaire (sp?) hasn't changed - calling Claire out for messing around with a married man, when she's the one who threw herself at Jamie right after he married Claire in the first place!  I'd be okay if this is the last we see of Laoghaire.  Unless we get to see Claire shoving it in her face that Jamie was never hers. But we probably won't get something satisfying like that, so I'll be okay if I just never see L again.   I thought I saw some sympathy from the older daughter toward Claire in the following moments.  I hope so.  Stellar acting by CB in that scene.  She made me feel Claire's humiliation and betrayal like I don't think she's done since S1.  Maybe I could just identify.  :/ 

The fight afterward when Claire is getting all her stuff together was very well done - up until the weird kiss/slap/kiss/sex thing.  Oh god, this show really does not do dubious consent or undertones of BDSM very well.  They should just stay away from it between Jamie and Claire at least.  I liked that Claire was still going to leave the next day, even after she'd had time to sleep on it.  But how handy was it that Claire brought back penicillin and Jamie happened to need some within a few days of her return?  Bet we'll never see it again now. 

It was so good to see Ned again!  It warmed my heart that he was so happy to see Claire after her decidedly cold reception at the place she used to consider home (and probably did even all the years she was away.)  Such a good assessment of Jenny's character with the 'warm light on those she loves and cold shadow over those she doesn't' line.  I'm glad they addressed Laoghaire's possession of the gun with Ned because I was wondering the same thing after the episode where Fergus shot the raven.  I realize that was several years ago on the show, but the law was still in effect.  

But Geebus - those proliferate Murrays, eh?  The baby girl Claire helped deliver (can't remember the name) has 4 or 5 kids of her own already?  In 22-23 years?  She must have started early and been continually pregnant.  Same with not-so-wee-Jamie's wife.  He has like 8?  I honestly can't believe that at least one of them, or even Jenny herself, hasn't died due to complications from childbirth yet.  Being pregnant non-stop is not good for a woman's body. 

I continue to like Young Ian more and more.  I also like Young Janet.  I hope we see more of her also. 

Looks like next week is Hijinks on the High Seas, Outlander Style.  Or Pirates of the North Sea.  Hm.  Not sure how that's going to go. 

On 11/5/2017 at 7:53 AM, cam3150 said:

Thank you, Claire, for finally pointing out to Jamie that he practically forced you to go through the stones before Culloden. It's bugged me every time he's thrown that in her face, like she just abandoned him or something. She begged to stay, more than once, and he wouldn't hear it. Because of Brianna it was the right choice but he needs to stop acting like Claire "left" him. 

Oh, yeah.  I forgot to mention this earlier. 

I also liked Claire reminding Jamie of his own words about lies on their wedding night. 

Edited November 7, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey

[FnkyChkn34]

23 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

But Geebus - those proliferate Murrays, eh?  The baby girl Claire helped deliver (can't remember the name) has 4 or 5 kids of her own already?  In 22-23 years?  She must have started early and been continually pregnant.  Same with not-so-wee-Jamie's wife.  He has like 8?  I honestly can't believe that at least one of them, or even Jenny herself, hasn't died due to complications from childbirth yet.  Being pregnant non-stop is not good for a woman's body. 

Young Jamie has 4 kids, with one being the newborn - Jenny named them, and I counted.  I think Maggie has 2, maybe 3?  Jenny introduced a few but I'm not sure that they were all Maggie's.  They don't have that many kids.

[taanja]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't know - maybe it's just me, but I was pretty underwhelmed by the whole reveal of who the second wife was.  From the moment in the last ep when it was confirmed that Jamie had another wife, to the title of this ep, I knew it was going to come out and that we'd find out who it was and probably see who it was, so it was just a matter of waiting for it to happen. 

 

 

But Geebus - those proliferate Murrays, eh?  The baby girl Claire helped deliver (can't remember the name) has 4 or 5 kids of her own already?  In 22-23 years?  She must have started early and been continually pregnant.  Same with not-so-wee-Jamie's wife.  He has like 8?  I honestly can't believe that at least one of them, or even Jenny herself, hasn't died due to complications from childbirth yet.  Being pregnant non-stop is not good for a woman's body. 

 

Jamie was acting like a cheating married man from the moment Claire showed up -- so I wan't surprised he was married. and why not Leary? (I refuse to spell it in that nonsensical Gaelic fashion) He's known her for years. Besides, he had no idea/clue that Claire was ever coming back. My only surprise was that the kids aren't his. I was sure he had a couple with new wifey. But ok, so they are Leary's from other marriages.

Right? about Jenny and Ian and all the damn grandbabies! I was trying to do the math quickly in my head. Jenny rattled off a long list off a names... they already have like 7 grandkids? Whoa! Are they all living at Lollybroch? (sp?)

Claire should have just told Jenny the whole truth.  Time travel and Brianna. Jenny's seems like she would accept the truth --whether she could understand it or not.

So is that Silkie island close to Lollybroch? Or did they time travel? (ha!) to get there so quickly? 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

19 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Young Jamie has 4 kids, with one being the newborn - Jenny named them, and I counted.  I think Maggie has 2, maybe 3?  Jenny introduced a few but I'm not sure that they were all Maggie's.  They don't have that many kids.

I guess I forgot to use the sarcasm font again.  :)  Still, Maggie has two-three kids at 20 years old.  NSWJamie has four kids at what? He's maybe 24?  Maybe not that many kids all in all, but for their respective ages...It still looks to me like Maggie has been pregnant continually since she got married and ditto for NSWJamie's wife.  With that track record and more years ahead of them, I don't think their longevity is looking so good. 

19 hours ago, taanja said:

and why not Leary? (I refuse to spell it in that nonsensical Gaelic fashion) He's known her for years. Besides, he had no idea/clue that Claire was ever coming back. My only surprise was that the kids aren't his. I was sure he had a couple with new wifey. But ok, so they are Leary's from other marriages.

Yeah, I just don't feel all the Laoghaire hate that others apparently do - or like maybe I'm supposed to?  I don't know - I mean, I didn't like her much back in S1 after that stunt at the river, but I also consider that she was a spoiled, smitten 15 (maybe 16?) year old girl.  And 20 odd years have gone by.  And most people grow up and change from their spoiled, bratty 16 year old selves.  Now, apparently, she really hasn't, but maybe at the time of the marriage, Jamie thought she had changed also.  People do fool other people for a time at least, and it's plausible that she was able to fool him without Claire around into thinking she was a more mature, wiser woman that she was back in the day, at least long enough to get him to marry her. 

I was surprised he said they'd only been married two years.  I would have thought it was longer than that, but I can't fix how long he'd been back at Lallybroch from Helwater at that point either. 

19 hours ago, taanja said:

Whoa! Are they all living at Lollybroch? (sp?)

It looked like it to me.  I didn't think it was a holiday or other special occasion where they would be visiting.  I didn't think the house was that big to have that many bedrooms.  I mean, I'm sure the kids would share - to a point anyway.  Maybe the older kids would be separate from the younger ones.  And surely the adults would have their own! 

[FnkyChkn34]

31 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I guess I forgot to use the sarcasm font again.  :)  Still, Maggie has two-three kids at 20 years old.  NSWJamie has four kids at what? He's maybe 24?  Maybe not that many kids all in all, but for their respective ages...It still looks to me like Maggie has been pregnant continually since she got married and ditto for NSWJamie's wife.  With that track record and more years ahead of them, I don't think their longevity is looking so good. 

I see what you're saying.  :-)  But also, remember that Maggie was born before Jamie was captured, tortured, and they ever went to France; she was born in season 1.  So I think that makes her 22-23 years old.  WeeJamie is 26-27ish?  Not trying to argue, just something to keep in mind.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Yeah, I couldn't remember when Maggie was born - before or after they got back from France - or the last time Claire saw NSWJamie.  I don't remember a whole lot other than the France parts from last season, but they were back at Lallybroch before Culloden, weren't they?  If he was barely able to see over the edge of the washtub, I thought that would put NSweeJamie around 3 or 4, before the '20 year gap' which would make him around 24.  I might go 25, but I don't think he was meant to be 27, which would have been the same age Claire was the first time she was at Lallybroch.  I guess it also depends on when they got married - as in how long they've been married - but seeing as how Jenny thinks Young Ian is too young to be off on his own, at least until the end of the ep, at 16, I highly doubt either of them got married that young.  Maggie maybe at 18, (and that seems like a big Maybe with Mother Hen Jenny, seeing as she didn't start that young either) but NSWJamie, I doubt it was that young as boys/men were generally married at a bit older than women.

[GHScorpiosRule]

5 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

but they were back at Lallybroch before Culloden, weren't they?  If he was barely able to see over the edge of the washtub, I thought that would put NSweeJamie around 3 or 4, before the '20 year gap' which would make him around 24.  I might go 25, but I don't think he was meant to be 27,

Wee Jamie was four when Claire first met him; and that was before they left for France. He would have been around six when they returned to Lallybroch, right before Culloden. So grown up Wee Jamie should be around 26-27.

[FnkyChkn34]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Yeah, I couldn't remember when Maggie was born - before or after they got back from France - or the last time Claire saw NSWJamie.  I don't remember a whole lot other than the France parts from last season, but they were back at Lallybroch before Culloden, weren't they?  If he was barely able to see over the edge of the washtub, I thought that would put NSweeJamie around 3 or 4, before the '20 year gap' which would make him around 24.  I might go 25, but I don't think he was meant to be 27, which would have been the same age Claire was the first time she was at Lallybroch.  I guess it also depends on when they got married - as in how long they've been married - but seeing as how Jenny thinks Young Ian is too young to be off on his own, at least until the end of the ep, at 16, I highly doubt either of them got married that young.  Maggie maybe at 18, (and that seems like a big Maybe with Mother Hen Jenny, seeing as she didn't start that young either) but NSWJamie, I doubt it was that young as boys/men were generally married at a bit older than women.

I personally didn't like that exchange, starting with Jenny, because I thought Jamie should have remembered Claire on his own anyway.  He almost had that expression on his face like, "yeah, I remember her, Mum, but I'll play along with your games..."

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Wee Jamie was four when Claire first met him; and that was before they left for France. He would have been around six when they returned to Lallybroch, right before Culloden. So grown up Wee Jamie should be around 26-27.

There's no mention in the show of how old Wee Jamie is when Jamie and Claire first get to Lallybroch.  Jenny makes a comment that it's been 4 years since she's last seen Jamie.  Now, Jamie thinks the lad is Randall's bastard, which would put him at little over 3 (allowing for gestation.)  But he isn't Randall's bastard, he's Ian's son.  They were obviously married later , but again, no word when.  Even if it was within months of Jamie being taken off, again, allowing for a normal full term pregnancy, Wee Jamie wouldn't have been more than 3 - probably closer to two. 

I did find information on the Outlander wikia (not posting the link here since it contains spoilers which do not belong in this thread, but be forewarned if anyone googles it!) about Wee Jamie's date of birth, but as far as I know that's not been stated in the show.  Hope it's okay if I just put this under a spoiler tag:

Spoiler

Still, based on that, and the date Claire went back to Edinburgh (1766), NSWJamie is 25. 

 

1 hour ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I personally didn't like that exchange, starting with Jenny, because I thought Jamie should have remembered Claire on his own anyway.  He almost had that expression on his face like, "yeah, I remember her, Mum, but I'll play along with your games..."

I thought he should have remembered Claire also.  Even if he was only 2-3 when they first met, he would have been 4-5 last time they met and that would have been old enough, imo, to remember Uncle Jamie's first wife.  I didn't think about him just playing along with his mom, but that makes sense.  I wish we'd get to see him admit that he really did remember Claire, but I don't think that's going to happen. 

[ganesh]

On 11/5/2017 at 7:48 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

So Jamie swam out to the tower where Jon Snow was born?

Thank you. Where he also apparently invented Treasure Island to boot. 

On 11/6/2017 at 4:26 PM, tennisgurl said:

I think Claire might have romanticized her time in the past a bit over the last 20 years. I mean, "I never imagined it would be this hard"? Does she not remember ANYTHING that happened in the past?

I know. I liked that Jenny was like, "you have a way of adding to all the cray around here." 

I found the whole argument to be rather juvenile tbh. I'm not putting it on Claire, but as it was said above, she kind of was lacking the larger context of the time. Sending Claire back was the right choice, and being ticked about it probably wasn't fair. You both made a hard choice, it was the right one.

What I don't like is the whole "one tru wuv" concept of the show. It's actually kind of pathetic and reduces the depth of the characters imo. So what if they each loved someone in the ensuing TWO DECADES? And I get that Leary herself is a special case, but still. 

On 11/6/2017 at 5:38 AM, Daisy said:

But I do think he's right that had Claire known it was Laoghaire, she would have probably closed up and walked away.

When she was yelling about 'why didn't you tell me?' I thought Jamie was going to just wave his hand around the room and say "because this?"

So being unspoiled, I'm going to assume they're going to find all the stuff Claire brought back and call her a witch again.

Looking at the episode through the lens of it being from Jenny's pov I like the episode better. 

Edited November 10, 2017 by ganesh

[Auj]

You know I think that my heroine Jenny and her trusty husband had a momentary lack of their good sense when they allowed their son Young Ian to go anywhere with the irresponsible flighty duo Jamie and Claire. How long did it take for those two to lose that kid (with the eternal bad hair day)? So, YI swam out to this little isle to get the treasure and a Pirate ship just happens along and picks him up? Are we now seeing Pirates of the Caribbean uh...6?! Arrrgh...Where is Murtaugh? Or any of the Highlanders? Dead and gone and now it’s pirates.  

[ganesh]

You know Murtaugh is on the boat. I have to say, without the narrative constraint of Collodeon, the show is getting kind of silly. 

[ganesh]

I understand that Jamie had to swim to Treasure Island because he just broke out of prison, but I don't get why Ian had to swim? Couldn't they just have brought a boat? 

[toolazy]

4 hours ago, ganesh said:

You know Murtaugh is on the boat. I have to say, without the narrative constraint of Collodeon, the show is getting kind of silly. 

Why would Murtagh be on the boat? He was transported to the colonies as an indentured servant. 

23 minutes ago, ganesh said:

I understand that Jamie had to swim to Treasure Island because he just broke out of prison, but I don't get why Ian had to swim? Couldn't they just have brought a boat? 

Not without attracting unwanted attention to themselves and the island.

[ganesh]

And pirates could have attacked the transport ship on the way to the colonies. 

I'm not buying that a small boat would attract that much attention.

[toolazy]

2 minutes ago, ganesh said:

And pirates could have attacked the transport ship on the way to the colonies. 

I'm not buying that a small boat would attract that much attention.

They would have had to buy or rent one because they lived on a landlocked farm. 

[ganesh]

Ok. So I'm not seeing that as insurmountable. 

[toolazy]

6 hours ago, ganesh said:

Ok. So I'm not seeing that as insurmountable. 

It's not a matter of insurmountable as it is a manner of attracting attention.

[ganesh]

Ok. I'm not seeing a small boat as attracting attention. 

[toolazy]

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

Ok. I'm not seeing a small boat as attracting attention. 

It has nothing to do with the size of the boat. 

[DittyDotDot]

16 hours ago, ganesh said:

Ok. So I'm not seeing that as insurmountable. 

Of course it's not insurmountable. Jamie just thought it was safer to swim it, probably because he'd already done it, than it was to go about asking for a boat which could lead to people taking notice of them. This way it was kept just between them and no one else was the wiser.

Either way, wee Ian was getting captured so Claire and Jamie would be forced to go after him. If they went by boat, there'd be some other reason Claire and Jamie couldn't help wee Ian. 

[ganesh]

The end result is the same, I just fundamentally disagree about the boat attracting that much attention and feel that they are making it more difficult than necessary. The show is just becoming borderline eye roll for me. 

[DittyDotDot]

5 minutes ago, ganesh said:

The end result is the same, I just fundamentally disagree about the boat attracting that much attention and feel that they are making it more difficult than necessary. The show is just becoming borderline eye roll for me. 

::snort:: Becoming?

I get what you're saying, and I agree that a boat probably would've been a smarter plan, but we all make the wrong call from time to time. Jamie made the wrong call here and I'm sure it will be something that eats away at him in weeks to come.

[Auj]

I think it’s just the way this bit was written. How was Wee Young Ian supposed to swim back with this treasure box? How did this ship whip out a smaller boat with oars so quickly to capture this kid? Why bother with this kid anyway? He has bad hair. What ever happened to the endless stream of British patrols combing the countryside looking for Rebels? Did that suddenly end? I thought Jamie is still wanted for treason. Does Jamie not believe in a disguise? He has the same look in those WANTED posters. How about a dye job or a buzz cut, Jamie lad? Is there never a discussion or mention of Black Jack? I am sure that monster will be back ?looking for his favorite whipping boy. Where is my beloved Murtaugh ❤️when his intelligence and common sense are needed.

[ganesh]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

::snort:: Becoming?

What I liked about the show at the outset was the race against history to avert Collodeon. The show spent an enormous amount of time world building, and they did a great job of it. The characters just leapt off the screen. Even in the second season, France was a living place. 

Lacking that narrative constraint, it's just messy. There's a severe lack of worldbuilding. They really missed that opportunity with Jamie's scenes prior to Claire returning and Claire's scene's vice versa. I was put off with the lack of any character development for Frank, Claire, and Brianna in the 20th century. 

10 minutes ago, Auj said:

How was Wee Young Ian supposed to swim back with this treasure box?

That was my first question. I figured he had some sack or something. It wouldn't need to be waterproof. 

11 minutes ago, Auj said:

Where is my beloved Murtaugh ❤️when his intelligence and common sense are needed.

I'm still saying. He's on that pirate ship. 

[WatchrTina]

6 hours ago, Auj said:

I thought Jamie is still wanted for treason

At the end of ep 304 Lady Dunsany offers to have her husband obtain a pardon for Jamie so that he can go home to Scotland.  He declines her offer so that he can stay and be near his new-born son.  She tells him that whenever his is ready to leave he need only ask.  At the end of that episode he rides off from Helwater with the blessings of the family so it is clear that he did ask for and did obtain a pardon.  Jamie Fraser is no longer wanted for treason.

"Alexander Malcolm", on the other hand, may be at risk.  Based on what we saw in 307, he may now be wanted for sedition.  We just don't know.

Edited November 12, 2017 by WatchrTina

[DittyDotDot]

54 minutes ago, Auj said:

What ever happened to the endless stream of British patrols combing the countryside looking for Rebels?

This is 20 years after Culloden. Most the rebels have already been rounded up and transported by this time, so the endless stream of patrols aren't happening anymore. 

[toolazy]

50 minutes ago, ganesh said:

 

Lacking that narrative constraint, it's just messy. There's a severe lack of worldbuilding.

It's season 3.  The world is built.

[ganesh]

That's demonstrably false based on what we've seen this season. The highland way of life was destroyed at Collodeon, which the show did a fantastic job of bringing to life. This is effectively a new world with a completely different political landscape. It was already asked upthread about the lack of British patrols. There's many facets of what the Scottish way of life is now, given the slaughter of so many 20 years before and others being shipped away. There's a new issue about the pirates that's been introduced as well. 

[toolazy]

26 minutes ago, ganesh said:

That's demonstrably false based on what we've seen this season. The highland way of life was destroyed at Collodeon, which the show did a fantastic job of bringing to life. This is effectively a new world with a completely different political landscape. It was already asked upthread about the lack of British patrols. There's many facets of what the Scottish way of life is now, given the slaughter of so many 20 years before and others being shipped away. There's a new issue about the pirates that's been introduced as well. 

We've seen an entirely new Scottish city - Edinburgh - and been introduced to its politics, through the lens of the printshop, a brothel and smugglers.  We've been to mid-20th century Boston and been introduced to various bits of its culture, albeit briefly.  We've seen that things have improved in the countryside - Lallybroch is, if not thriving, doing quite well.  We are about to be introduced to the West Indies, pirates and what appears to be the British navy.   As in previous seasons, they've introduced us to the cultures and politics that have directly affected our characters and the story.  I don't think they're required to do much more. 

 

Edit:  Which isn't to say you're required to like it, which you clearly do not.  But lack of world building just strikes me as an odd reason. 

Edited November 11, 2017 by toolazy

[TaurusRose]

On 11/6/2017 at 7:38 AM, Daisy said:

The "we're fighting, no we're gonna have sex" thing... It wouldn't have bothered me so much, if Claire hadn't been saying no so adamantly. For the first time I really wondered if Jaime would have been pretty much a "man of the times" and forced Claire into having sex because of it was right right. that truly truly bugged. 

My interpretation of this scene is totally different, so I didn't have a problem with it. Claire was "adamant" until she wasn't, at which point she was an active participant.  These are two very passionate people who fight hard and make up hard. Claire was never in any danger of Jamie taking her by force. It would never occur to him to do so, wife or not, IMO.  Also, I don't think Claire slapped Jamie anywhere near as hard as she could have. 

On 11/7/2017 at 3:14 PM, taanja said:

Jamie was acting like a cheating married man from the moment Claire showed up -- so I wan't surprised he was married. and why not Leary? (I refuse to spell it in that nonsensical Gaelic fashion) He's known her for years. Besides, he had no idea/clue that Claire was ever coming back. My only surprise was that the kids aren't his. I was sure he had a couple with new wifey. But ok, so they are Leary's from other marriages.

How about Saoirse or Siobhan or Niamh?  None of these names sound even remotely like the way they are spelled. I get it's a bit of a challenge to get them right, but it's kind of cheeky to knowingly spell a name incorrectly unless we're hating on the character and being snarky (i.e. Leg Hair), in which case I give a pass.  ? Apologies in advance if I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill, but I'm a stickler for getting names right.

On 11/8/2017 at 2:26 PM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I thought he should have remembered Claire also.  Even if he was only 2-3 when they first met, he would have been 4-5 last time they met and that would have been old enough, imo, to remember Uncle Jamie's first wife.  I didn't think about him just playing along with his mom, but that makes sense.  I wish we'd get to see him admit that he really did remember Claire, but I don't think that's going to happen. 

I don't think it's hard to believe that a child that young wouldn't remember someone who showed up 20 years later claiming to have known him.  I didn't remember people I went to high school with 20 years later unless we had a significant relationship or they stood out for some particular reason.

On 11/9/2017 at 10:03 PM, ganesh said:

When she was yelling about 'why didn't you tell me?' I thought Jamie was going to just wave his hand around the room and say "because this?"

?

Edited November 11, 2017 by taurusrose

[meowmommy]

5 hours ago, ganesh said:

That was my first question. I figured he had some sack or something. It wouldn't need to be waterproof. 

My first question as well, but my second question was why Jamie and Claire weren't waiting on shore with blankets and a change of clothes.

On 11/7/2017 at 1:48 PM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I see Laoghaire (sp?) hasn't changed - calling Claire out for messing around with a married man, when she's the one who threw herself at Jamie right after he married Claire in the first place! 

I don't like her, and of course I'm not supposed to, but she has always seen Claire as the interloper from the first time she laid eyes on her, long before Jamie married Claire.  She believed Jamie was hers and that Claire stole or bewitched him away.

On 11/9/2017 at 10:03 PM, ganesh said:

What I don't like is the whole "one tru wuv" concept of the show. It's actually kind of pathetic and reduces the depth of the characters imo. So what if they each loved someone in the ensuing TWO DECADES? And I get that Leary herself is a special case, but still. 

On 11/6/2017 at 7:38 AM, Daisy said:

Yes, whatever happened to the trope about the dying person who begs their SO to find someone else?  But I suspect Claire would have been only sad, not angry, if Jamie had married anyone but Laoghaire.

[Athena]

Please remember this is the NO BOOK TALK thread. Book posters are discouraged from heavily posting in here.

[Auj]

Is that true that Jamie is older than his sister, Jenny? Lord, I never would have believed that. Jenny is so much more mature and responsible than Jamie. Jamie just can not wait to do anything rebellious and irresponsible. How old is he now 43 or thereabouts? He acts like some teenager. And Claire is just as bad. Why drag modern medicine back through the stones? Any supply can not last because Jamie is always getting “scratches”.

If Jamie is no longer being hunted for treason, then why is he supposedly using this fake name A Malcomn? Has he been charged with sedition? Did I miss something?

Isn’t prostitution illegal back then? Smuggling is certainly illegal. I have always got loads of questions, but lots of this series makes little sense to me. I realize that having a logical mind is a disadvantage when it comes to Outlander.

[Hyla]

I loved, loved this episode for all the character interactions! It was the reunion episode I was waiting for :)

9 hours ago, ganesh said:

What I liked about the show at the outset was the race against history to avert Collodeon. The show spent an enormous amount of time world building, and they did a great job of it. The characters just leapt off the screen. Even in the second season, France was a living place. 

I've been nervous too about where the show is going now that Claire and Jamie have been reunited. The first two seasons built the world and then gave them the purpose of trying to save Scotland from the devastation of the last Rising. Without that structure are they just going to bounce from adventure to adventure with no higher purpose? 

 

1 hour ago, Auj said:

If Jamie is no longer being hunted for treason, then why is he supposedly using this fake name A Malcomn? Has he been charged with sedition? Did I miss something?

I was wondering about that too. It seemed like he had a legitimate print shop business under his false identity and was using it as a cover for his smuggling and sedition activities. He told Claire he's been arrested on suspicion, but never charged. The fake name may have been a way to protect his Lallybroch family and wife and daughters in case he did get charged.

 

On 11/10/2017 at 4:27 AM, Auj said:

You know I think that my heroine Jenny and her trusty husband had a momentary lack of their good sense when they allowed their son Young Ian to go anywhere with the irresponsible flighty duo Jamie and Claire. How long did it take for those two to lose that kid (with the eternal bad hair day)? So, YI swam out to this little isle to get the treasure and a Pirate ship just happens along and picks him up? Are we now seeing Pirates of the Caribbean uh...6?! Arrrgh...Where is Murtaugh? Or any of the Highlanders? Dead and gone and now it’s pirates.  

I laughed out loud when Jamie said they could be trusted with Young Ian's care. Especially since the very next scene has them dropping him off a cliff to swim out across frigid ocean water to fetch them back funding for alimony payments.

Lack of access to boat technology and the existence of the treasure in the first place both struck me as ridiculous. It seems more dangerous to risk hypothermia and drowning then attention of people wondering why they are hauling a boat cross country. I was also convinced he was going to drop the treasure in the sea trying to swim back with it. (Young Ian is adorably earnest and sweet, but this is the same kid who just burned down his uncle's print shop.)

Was that a pirate ship? It made no sense other than plot convenience that it showed up right then. Did they happen to see Ian and sent someone ashore to press him into service?

This might belong in the unpopular opinion thread, but I was very sad about Jamie's promise to Joanie. It was such a beautifully acted and engaging scene by both characters and I really wanted to believe Jamie or at least believe that he believes his intentions are good. How involved does he really mean to be in her life if he first runs off to Edinburgh to engage in illegal activity and risk hanging, then meets up with his first wife and makes plans to dissolve his connection with her mother, and finally sails off to who knows where in an attempt to find the ship that kidnapped his nephew? Or did he just mean financially? He doesn't seem to have the means to do that either if they were relying on recovering that treasure to support the girls and Leoghaire.

[ganesh]

6 hours ago, meowmommy said:

But I suspect Claire would have been only sad, not angry, if Jamie had married anyone but Laoghaire.

Claire would have been furious regardless. I'm 43; I have lived and I have loved. It's just patently absurd and pathetic that at their ages they didn't love anyone else. 

40 minutes ago, Hyla said:

Without that structure are they just going to bounce from adventure to adventure with no higher purpose? 

That's what I've been asking since the start of this season. There's a lack of narrative direction. 

42 minutes ago, Hyla said:

Lack of access to boat technology and the existence of the treasure in the first place both struck me as ridiculous. It seems more dangerous to risk hypothermia and drowning then attention of people wondering why they are hauling a boat cross country.

He's a teenager, and not a swimmer. There's no way he'd be able to go a *quarter of a mile both ways*. 

[toolazy]

6 hours ago, Athena said:

Please remember this is the NO BOOK TALK thread. Book posters are discouraged from heavily posting in here.

I'm curious about what prompted this.  I try to be super careful when I post over here so if I've transgressed, please let me know what I said so I don't do it again.   

[FnkyChkn34]

59 minutes ago, toolazy said:

I'm curious about what prompted this.  I try to be super careful when I post over here so if I've transgressed, please let me know what I said so I don't do it again.   

I think it was just a general warning. The mods know who's who. ;)

[Hyla]

2 hours ago, ganesh said:

Claire would have been furious regardless. I'm 43; I have lived and I have loved. It's just patently absurd and pathetic that at their ages they didn't love anyone else. 

The story was set up so they didn't have any other opportunities. Claire was married to Frank for something like 17 or 18 years and Jamie was a prisoner for that same amount of time. There was only a two or three year window before their reunion for them to explore their options.

Claire chose to spend that time trying to get back to Jamie. She said she was aware a 20 year separation meant he would have lived a life and was prepared for the possibility he would have other ties. She came around rather quickly when he explained why he had remarried, because she understood how much he wanted family. If his 2nd wife had been anyone other than the one person Jamie knew had tried to have her burned alive I don't think she would have felt nearly as betrayed by that. The anger also seems to have been due to his keeping of something so game changing from her knowledge.

Jamie did not waste time getting married as soon as he was free to do so. I was surprised about that because I thought the plot had been arranged in such a way that Claire's return would coincide with Jamie's return to Scotland and his figuring out his life there. It does make you wonder if Jamie could have just gone home after Culloden if Claire wouldn't instead be meeting his teenaged biological children.

On 11/9/2017 at 10:03 PM, ganesh said:

What I don't like is the whole "one tru wuv" concept of the show. It's actually kind of pathetic and reduces the depth of the characters imo. So what if they each loved someone in the ensuing TWO DECADES? And I get that Leary herself is a special case, but still. 

I used to be a sucker for true love stories, and I still have a fondness for the concept, but I've mostly outgrown that by now. Two characters who have certain compatibilities and incompatibilities and have to work to maintain their relationship are far more interesting to me now. What I like about Claire and Jamie is that they are characters who both believe in the concept of one true eternal love and try to act accordingly, but reality gets in the way. Claire found it was far more comfortable to give birth and live in the 20th century supported by her law-abiding professor husband. And Jamie may have intended to spend 200 years in purgatory faithfully waiting to be reunited with Claire, but in the end he was lonely and found it easier to remarry.

I wonder if he did just marry Laoghaire for the girls, or if he was rekindling something that had been between them since Castle Leoch but that he had denied to Claire because true love. Either way that's twice now she's tried to murder her romantic rival which does not say much for her character. I also have to wonder about her bringing her daughters with her to confront Claire or why she chose to show up so late at night - or did Jenny just invite her over without telling her why?

[ganesh]

I think Jenny set her up because she was mad at Claire. She confronts Claire about how she didn't look for Jamie at all and now showed up like nothing happened. Jenny seemed more upset that Claire left *her*. 

I cannot wait for them to go back and tell Jenny that they lost Ian. 

[BitterApple]

One of the things that really pissed me off was when Jaime threw the fact that he'd been sending money to Lallybroch in Jenny's and Ian's faces. Um, okay, that's nice and all, but how many years have Jenny and Ian spent risking their lives to protect you from the Red Coats, Jaime? How many times was Ian thrown in the gallows but never gave you up? Hell, throwing a few shillings their way is the least you can do. 

[ganesh]

I don't know if that's entirely true. Jamie and Jenny set up the plan for Jamie to be arrested so she could get reward money, and then he spent a lot of time in prison in the meantime. So I think he has a little justified anger there.