S25.E08: Week 7: Halloween Night

[SuprSuprElevated]

6 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

This isn’t Celebrity Rehab so no one HAS to share any of their skeletons if they don’t want to. No one forced Nick Lachey to talk about his divorce from Jessica Simpson. No one is going to make Terrell talk about getting into a fistfight in the training room, spitting on another player, or his overdose. No one made Derek Fisher talk about his DUI, his stalker, or getting into a physical altercation with his former teammate. The celebs aren’t required to rehash every mistake they’ve ever made just because they’re learning how to waltz and foxtrot on tv. 

Yep

[LadyMustang65]

16 hours ago, Andie1 said:

Frankie on the other hand says he can't remember his past. That's convenient. 

There's absolutely nothing "convenient" about it.  His issues with memory loss are well documented.  This isn't something he made up for the show.  I get that you don't like Frankie, but these criticisms are getting ridiculously petty.  Not a good look.

[LadyMustang65]

16 hours ago, Andie1 said:

As far as role, well Frankie should be more forthcoming about his years away from the public.  What the hell happened to him, or does he not want anyone to know?

He drove race cars for several years and then spent 3 years as a drummer in a band.  What exactly do you want to know and how has he not been "forthcoming?"  Jeez Louise, give it a rest.

[boyznkatz]

Double post

Edited November 2, 2017 by boyznkatz

[tessaforever]

Quote

This isn’t Celebrity Rehab so no one HAS to share any of their skeletons if they don’t want to. No one forced Nick Lachey to talk about his divorce from Jessica Simpson. No one is going to make Terrell talk about getting into a fistfight in the training room, spitting on another player, or his overdose. No one made Derek Fisher talk about his DUI, his stalker, or getting into a physical altercation with his former teammate. The celebs aren’t required to rehash every mistake they’ve ever made just because they’re learning how to waltz and foxtrot on tv. 

Thank you, ElectricBoogaloo! In fact, one of the articles I read about DWTS recently said that one reason celebs go on it is because the producers assure them that scandals won't be brought up unless the stars bring them up; a good example is Paula Deen. Not one word was said about her scandal when she was on the show even though it had happened not long before. It's a safe space lol

[spanana]

5 hours ago, ChitChat said:

I agree.  Seems to me that in the early seasons of DWTS they didn't bring out so many extras until later in the season (I might be remembering this wrong).  It's distracting to have so many dancers on the floor with the celebrity.  I wish they'd wait until later in the season when the celebrities have a little more experience and confidence before putting on the high-production numbers around them.  YMMV.

In the earlier seasons we also just didn't have a troupe.  Also when the troupe was first integrated, the show was still airing two nights a week, so there was plenty of time for the troupe to do pro numbers on the results shows, either on their own or with musical guests.  I don't think the big push from TPTB to make everything a big elaborate production number and to shove the troupe into everything happened until after the show went down to 1x a week.  Maybe around S17 & S18.  I think S16 was the last to have full results shows and also the first to introduce contemporary/jazz as styles, though in those days you got one or the other over the course of a season and not both.

However I expect that our pros are also getting pressure from TPTB to use the troupe to create these big production numbers, whether they want to or not.  Yes, some pros use it as a crutch to distract from their partners abilities and what not, but I think TPTB really push it.  Especially for theme nights, but the issue is every week is now a theme note.  It's also why I think freestyles have become less effective over the course of the show, because almost every week is a big dang freestyle.

As for celebs sharing their dirty laundry, the show tends to ignore a celebs past unless it's impossible to some degree (the immediacy of Ryan Lochte after the Olympics) or unless the celebs want to go there. I think they do get pushes to go there to some extent from memorable year week, but even then they are pushed probably to do so with a positive bent.  I messed up and here is why but now my life is together and I'm so appreciative type of deal.  As others have said, if Derek Fisher was given a good guy edit and not forced to talk about his DUI or TO not forced to talk about various things from his own past, I don't really know why Frankie is required to disclose everything.  This is the same show that kind of made Andy Dick into a likeable guy while somewhat acknowledging his past without doing a deep dive into his many transgressions...yet this guy is still being fired from movie sites for sexual harassment.  So in that sense I don't know why Frankie is suddenly the magic contestant required to disclose everything he's done for the past 10-15 years.

Edited November 2, 2017 by spanana

[realdancemom]

1 hour ago, spanana said:

In the earlier seasons we also just didn't have a troupe.  Also when the troupe was first integrated, the show was still airing two nights a week, so there was plenty of time for the troupe to do pro numbers on the results shows, either on their own or with musical guests.  I don't think the big push from TPTB to make everything a big elaborate production number and to shove the troupe into everything happened until after the show went down to 1x a week.  Maybe around S17 & S18.  I think S16 was the last to have full results shows and also the first to introduce contemporary/jazz as styles, though in those days you got one or the other over the course of a season and not both.

However I expect that our pros are also getting pressure from TPTB to use the troupe to create these big production numbers, whether they want to or not.  Yes, some pros use it as a crutch to distract from their partners abilities and what not, but I think TPTB really push it.  Especially for theme nights, but the issue is every week is now a theme note.  It's also why I think freestyles have become less effective over the course of the show, because almost every week is a big dang freestyle.

As for celebs sharing their dirty laundry, the show tends to ignore a celebs past unless it's impossible to some degree (the immediacy of Ryan Lochte after the Olympics) or unless the celebs want to go there. I think they do get pushes to go there to some extent from memorable year week, but even then they are pushed probably to do so with a positive bent.  I messed up and here is why but now my life is together and I'm so appreciative type of deal.  As others have said, if Derek Fisher was given a good guy edit and not forced to talk about his DUI or TO not forced to talk about various things from his own past, I don't really know why Frankie is required to disclose everything.  This is the same show that kind of made Andy Dick into a likeable guy while somewhat acknowledging his past without doing a deep dive into his many transgressions...yet this guy is still being fired from movie sites for sexual harassment.  So in that sense I don't know why Frankie is suddenly the magic contestant required to disclose everything he's done for the past 10-15 years.

TPTB are first interested in ratings and advertisement money.  So their first goal is entertainment and getting the younger demo.  That's why I think the show introduced contemporary and jazz.  They also started hiring more cross-trained pros instead of pure ballroom pros.  And the pros have to be able to adapt and choreograph the different styles.  If they can't, then set aside your ego and hire somebody that can, e.g. Maks for jazz.

I think that's why there is a bigger push for big production numbers too.  Also, when it comes to weaker celebs, the pros do bring in the troupe to make the dance look better so that all the focus is not on the star.  It's the same reason why female pros dance circles around male stars that really can't dance. or make them a forklift if they're strong  This applies to contemporary, e.g. Witney and Frankie this week, as well as ballroom.  I do agree that having the themes and bigger productions every week makes the freestyles less effective.

I also agree that DWTS is a safe space.  Stars come to the show to get more job opportunities or revamp their image.  It works for stars like Ryan Lochte and Andy Dick.  It also works for stars like Jordan and Zendaya that are up and coming and want to increase their exposure to a wider audience.  I don't need Frankie or anybody else to bring up their dirty laundry.

DWTS is also an escape.  I watch it for entertainment and dance.  I don't want any drama.  I like that the contestants in this show and SYTYCD support each other.  I remember when stars like Vanilla Ice and the pros went up to Ryan Lochte after the controversy and supported him.  This season, it was obvious that Maks and Vanessa did not get along.  But the show didn't show clips of them arguing or anything.  Even when Maks didn't show up for one show, they just said personal reasons as an excuse.

As for Jordan, I want to clarify that I love that he is articulate and I am cheering for him to win.  I was just agreeing that he is too rehearsed with his answers.  But I honestly don't see anything wrong with his personality.  I can just see why some voters won't vote for him because they like underdogs and want to see an improvement arc.

[realdancemom]

4 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

Or some people, no matter how much they try are just bad dancers. Not to mention that some people choke from nerves when they go live. There have been countless celebrities throughout the years where the Pros state how good they were in rehearsals but as soon as the live show came, they would tense up, freeze, forget steps and essentially choke. Because when you're doing something that's not natural to you and then doing it with camera lights all in your face, an audience of almost 200 people and the knowledge that millions are watching, it can be incredibly daunting. All that being said, YMMV but it's simply just not serious. Some people will be awful, some okay and some great. None of them will be perfect ballroom dancers. This is the 25th season of this show and what its 12th year on air? None of this stuff is new or different. I say it all the time but this show is simply not that serious. They win some tacky trophy and a nice check and everyone moves on the day after. 

This so much.  I've seen little girls that try so hard to dance but they just have a difficult time.  You can see their minds working.  If they don't give up, they will eventually get better than somebody that is naturally talented but lazy.  But they won't surpass somebody that is gifted and works hard.   I also agree with nerves coming into play.  And yes on the tacky trophy too.  As I said above, this show is to get good publicity. 

[NeverLate]

4 hours ago, LadyMustang65 said:

There's absolutely nothing "convenient" about it.  His issues with memory loss are well documented.  This isn't something he made up for the show.  I get that you don't like Frankie, but these criticisms are getting ridiculously petty.  Not a good look.

I never care about their pasts, unless they are axe murderers. Franki looks happy, and happy is a good thing!:) 

[luvthepros]

19 hours ago, Andie1 said:

Sure Wikipedia whitewashes his past.  Whatever, just not interested in this type of person.

What are you getting at? 

[majormama]

Check out the pinned post about how to ignore others' posts. It's great!

[spanana]

Wikipedia is also a site that anyone can access and make changes to if wanted.  So if someone is whitewashed on Wikipedia, it can be because they or their agents made changes, and if someone has a fanbase, maybe their fans.  But the flip side is any other random person on the internet can adjust it any way they want.  If I wanted to submit an entry saying that Frankie had five legs and ten arms and was a serial killer in a former life, I could do that.  Wikipedia isn't exactly a hard hitting source.  

I don't think Frankie is the best dancer ever or even the best dancer this season, but I also think the he's so horrible and doesn't do anything stuff is just as overblown the other direction. In the scheme of DWTS contestants with no dance experience, he's not that bad.  Things are going to look very different on him than someone like Rashad.  Frankie does not have a dancers body.  He's short.  He is not going to have natural lines, which doesn't excuse him of not being able to do things, but the visual is never going to be what you get with the more standard male body types on this show.  I said at the beginning that he reminds me a bit of Drew Lachey in his dancing and I stand by that.

I know there is a lot of talk about him being inconsistent but outside of the awful troll jazz, I don't remember his other dances being bad.  His samba wasn't good from a technical perspective, but I don't remember any of his other dances being bad.

[crossover]

5 hours ago, realdancemom said:

I can just see why some voters won't vote for him because they like underdogs and want to see an improvement arc.

Yes.  When people don't support ringers, they bring out the no improvement arc, too polished, phony etc.  They just really have another favorite.  So they try to make the ringer look like an undeserving person.   Ringers like Kristi, Shawn, Jennifer, Alfonso, Laurie and Meryl just had the fanbase.  I think Nicole was the only ringer to sway voters in a positive direction?  But there's been twice as many ringers (if not more) who didn't make it.  People always found something to complain about to keep from supporting them.  It's a reality show.  It's all about getting more people to support your favorite and withdraw from someone else's favorite.  But some fans go overboard.

[MsJamieDornan]

Serious question. Why does everyone feel Frankie didn't dance during his dance ? It was a contemporary dance. No one ever really does anything but run around, jump, look sad and throw your arms in the air ?

[Callaphera]

3 hours ago, crossover said:

Yes.  When people don't support ringers, they bring out the no improvement arc, too polished, phony etc.  They just really have another favorite.  So they try to make the ringer look like an undeserving person.   Ringers like Kristi, Shawn, Jennifer, Alfonso, Laurie and Meryl just had the fanbase.  I think Nicole was the only ringer to sway voters in a positive direction?  But there's been twice as many ringers (if not more) who didn't make it.  People always found something to complain about to keep from supporting them.  It's a reality show.  It's all about getting more people to support your favorite and withdraw from someone else's favorite.  But some fans go overboard.

That's a bit of a whole lotta sweeping generalization there. 

It makes it sound like those who don't like the Ringer Du Jour across the entire viewing audience purposely comes up with excuses as to why - like our reasons may not be legitimate to ourselves - all because we like someone else who may not have as much natural talent or professional training. Some seasons I like the so called ringer (I was rooting for Heather Morris), some seasons I don't. But my reasons for not liking them, not connecting with them, or them just not sparking that interest in me doesn't mean that I'm making excuses or going out of my way to make them seem like an "undeserving" person. 

[PBGamer89]

I find overall female ringers are picked apart and hated on every time but a male ringer like Jordan gets very little hate or backlash and won't suffer from a week 5-9 shock elimination like a female ringer usually would.

[crossover]

4 hours ago, Callaphera said:

That's a bit of a whole lotta sweeping generalization there. 

It makes it sound like those who don't like the Ringer Du Jour across the entire viewing audience purposely comes up with excuses as to why - like our reasons may not be legitimate to ourselves - all because we like someone else who may not have as much natural talent or professional training. Some seasons I like the so called ringer (I was rooting for Heather Morris), some seasons I don't. But my reasons for not liking them, not connecting with them, or them just not sparking that interest in me doesn't mean that I'm making excuses or going out of my way to make them seem like an "undeserving" person. 

Of course it's a generalization and not specific.  But I do believe you are in the minority.  SOME people who don't connect with ringers will use stuff like too polished as a reason.  Really didn't mean to imply ALL people are the same.  Oftentimes when SOME have interest sparked in the non-ringer celeb, for some reason they feel they have to state the reasons why they can't support the ringer?  Really never understood why they feel they have to down one celeb to justify their choice in another?  That's really what DWTS is counting on--being invested in a favorite.  From recent seasons, I think of James and Nyle seasons.  The ringer won one and lost one.  But the fandoms were tough on the boards.  I just hope they'll be able to find a couple of ringers for each season.  In that way, the early weeks will have some good performances until the teaching sets in.

[calipiano81]

7 hours ago, MsJamieDornan said:

Serious question. Why does everyone feel Frankie didn't dance during his dance ? It was a contemporary dance. No one ever really does anything but run around, jump, look sad and throw your arms in the air ?

Contemporary dance emphasizes emotional expression, but it has recognizable elements and standards of technique just like any other dance style. So You Think You Can Dance even considers contemporary the supreme style because of its connection and derivation from ballet, and specialists in other styles (including ballroom) are often considered inferior and "untrained."

Many of the contemporary dances on DWTS are not great representations of the style, but I would expect the pros, even if they do not have a background in contemporary, to at least put in some type of dance vocabulary and/or elements of dance technique into a contemporary routine, even if its just pointed toes, arm extensions, leaps and turns, or even borrowing from the more lyrical ballroom styles (like rumba or waltz).

IMO, I saw very little in Frankie's "contemporary" that demonstrated that he learned any formal element of dancing that week. Waving your arm, running around, grabbing someone, jumping on furniture, albeit in a musical way, are not things I think you really need anyone to teach you how to do. 

The lack of content for Frankie, though, was completely on Witney, especially since she IS cross-trained in contemporary. And for me, the routine did not help further the cause of proving Frankie's skills as a dancer.

Edited November 3, 2017 by calipiano81

[boyznkatz]

10 hours ago, MsJamieDornan said:

Serious question. Why does everyone feel Frankie didn't dance during his dance ? It was a contemporary dance. No one ever really does anything but run around, jump, look sad and throw your arms in the air ?

You are right, in dwts that is what "contemporary" is. I don't think an amateur could do it properly with no ballet training. Even most of the pros don't know it. Even if people don't like him, he shouldn't be singled out for that dance.

Edited November 3, 2017 by boyznkatz

[spanana]

5 hours ago, crossover said:

Of course it's a generalization and not specific.  But I do believe you are in the minority.  SOME people who don't connect with ringers will use stuff like too polished as a reason.  Really didn't mean to imply ALL people are the same.  Oftentimes when SOME have interest sparked in the non-ringer celeb, for some reason they feel they have to state the reasons why they can't support the ringer?  Really never understood why they feel they have to down one celeb to justify their choice in another?  That's really what DWTS is counting on--being invested in a favorite.  From recent seasons, I think of James and Nyle seasons.  The ringer won one and lost one.  But the fandoms were tough on the boards.  I just hope they'll be able to find a couple of ringers for each season.  In that way, the early weeks will have some good performances until the teaching sets in.

I think this is just the nature of DWTS though or any competition show.  Taking the ringer aspect out of the equation, what this show does is pit celebs/pros against each other for a tacky mirrorball.  More often than not, if you find the hardcore fans of a particular contestant, and I mean usually the REALLY hardcore fans, you will also find them tearing down their faves biggest competition any way they can.  The hate is often framed as whatever way works for that particular narrative.   If your fave is untrained, then you can drag the ringers for being too polished and coming in knowing how to dance and it's not fair blah blah.  If your fave is the ringer, you can drag the untrained for not being as good as your fave and not deserving to share the same stage with such spectacular legendary talent.  If your fave is the pro, then you can drag the other pro for whatever perceived slight you imagined.  So ultimately it's not just about ringers.  I see it all the time and each season the narrative gets shaped in a different way to tell whatever story works for the fave in question and their competitors.

Also hardcore fans don't get over things quickly.  Like I already see Rashad getting dragged for coming back to dance with Emma and he can't ever leave the show blah blah and he doesn't have a job so he's obsessed with DWTS because he needs it for the paycheck, yet these same fans would have been over the moon if their fave Normani was back to dance with Val.  So there is a whole lot of hypocritical-ness in DWTS fandoms and people don't get over things easily.

But honestly, the show loves it.  The online engagement is what they live for, so they don't care.

[crowceilidh]

I dunno.  I get pretty invested during season (not this one though), but I'm often amused to look back at cast lists and discover that I don't remember who 3/4s of them are and I don't remember who I was rooting for that season.  I mean, not such egregious seasons as Mel B's, but...  Of course, I may have dance show exhaustion (every season of SYTYCD and every season of DWTS since s3 and the Ultimate Dance Battle and ABDC and WoD (special blechs)....).  It all seems so the same all the time.  

[crossover]

1 hour ago, spanana said:

The hate is often framed as whatever way works for that particular narrative.   If your fave is untrained, then you can drag the ringers for being too polished and coming in knowing how to dance and it's not fair blah blah.  If your fave is the ringer, you can drag the untrained for not being as good as your fave and not deserving to share the same stage with such spectacular legendary talent.  If your fave is the pro, then you can drag the other pro for whatever perceived slight you imagined.  So ultimately it's not just about ringers.  I see it all the time and each season the narrative gets shaped in a different way to tell whatever story works for the fave in question and their competitors.

So true.  It all goes back to who's your favorite.

[kitcloudkicker]

4 hours ago, boyznkatz said:

You are right, in dwts that is what "contemporary" is. I don't think an amateur could do it properly with no ballet training. Even most of the pros don't know it. Even if people don't like him, he shouldn't be singled out for that dance.

Mandy Moore made this point once, I think it was on an Afterbuzz episode talking about Bethany Mota. She was complimenting Derek for using a frame they danced around/in in their contemporary, and Kristyn was like, "I don't know, I feel like it really hid/constrained her movements," and Mandy said something along the lines of, "That's exactly what was so genius about it." Because in the time frame that you have with these celebrities, they're never going to be able to hit the extension/lines that make "true" contemporary, because that pulls from years of ballet training. So for this (not that serious, popcorn entertainment) show, you end up with routines that use theatrics to get some semblance of what it could be. Some people are going to say contemporary shouldn't be on the show then, if no one can actually hit it (and are totally free to have that argument) but for me, I don't really care. If I'm watching this show it's mostly for a bit of fluff entertainment, and if the theatrics are good enough to entertain me for a few mins, I'm cool with it. And if they aren't good enough, I don't mind laughing at what nonsense they come up with. 

[realdancemom]

53 minutes ago, kitcloudkicker said:

Mandy Moore made this point once, I think it was on an Afterbuzz episode talking about Bethany Mota. She was complimenting Derek for using a frame they danced around/in in their contemporary, and Kristyn was like, "I don't know, I feel like it really hid/constrained her movements," and Mandy said something along the lines of, "That's exactly what was so genius about it." Because in the time frame that you have with these celebrities, they're never going to be able to hit the extension/lines that make "true" contemporary, because that pulls from years of ballet training. So for this (not that serious, popcorn entertainment) show, you end up with routines that use theatrics to get some semblance of what it could be. Some people are going to say contemporary shouldn't be on the show then, if no one can actually hit it (and are totally free to have that argument) but for me, I don't really care. If I'm watching this show it's mostly for a bit of fluff entertainment, and if the theatrics are good enough to entertain me for a few mins, I'm cool with it. And if they aren't good enough, I don't mind laughing at what nonsense they come up with. 

Yes, I just want to see good dancing and be entertained.  Did Frankie do a lot of dancing in his contemporary?  No.  Witney did most of it and even she didn't do a lot of contemporary technique.  I don't expect Frankie to do a lot of technique because he isn't trained.  I also don't like most of the contemporary or jazz numbers on this show.  I did like Jordan's contemporary but he's trained.  A jazz routine that I liked was Ryker, Allison, and Brittany's trio but again, he's trained.  I didn't like Bethany's contemporary but I did like Kellie's freestyle.  She wasn't trained but Derek used her flexibility and strong core to create a fantastic routine. 

Did I feel something when I watched Frankie's contemporary?  Yes.  Even when stars aren't trained, I can enjoy their contemporary routines if they can emote like Rashad did in his or in Frankie's case, his creepy acting.  Frankie committed to the movements that he was given.  He didn't just go through the motion.  He looked like he was trying to snatch Witney.   As I previously posted, most contemporaries are over scored on this show so Frankie's score was not out of line in comparison to other scores from non-trained stars.

[calipiano81]

8 hours ago, boyznkatz said:

You are right, in dwts that is what "contemporary" is. I don't think an amateur could do it properly with no ballet training. Even most of the pros don't know it. Even if people don't like him, he shouldn't be singled out for that dance.

I think Frankie/Witney CAN be singled out. Nick and Nikki also did contemporary this season. Again, while not great representations of real contemporary, their dances had more dance content than what Witney put together for Frankie. 

And then there was Jordan's contemporary this season. For obvious reasons, I won't try to compare it dance-wise to Frankie's, but you can see how it might bug some people that Jordan got a 29, while Frankie got a 30 based solely on his acting skills.

[calipiano81]

3 hours ago, realdancemom said:

Yes, I just want to see good dancing and be entertained.  Did Frankie do a lot of dancing in his contemporary?  No.  Witney did most of it and even she didn't do a lot of contemporary technique.  I don't expect Frankie to do a lot of technique because he isn't trained.  I also don't like most of the contemporary or jazz numbers on this show.  I did like Jordan's contemporary but he's trained.  A jazz routine that I liked was Ryker, Allison, and Brittany's trio but again, he's trained.

None of the celebs are trained in Standard and Latin ballroom. Should we then not care whether they learn and perform ballroom technique?

[calipiano81]

5 hours ago, crossover said:

So true.  It all goes back to who's your favorite.

Some fans are capable of being rational about it all. It's no secret that I am Team Lindsey and Mark. Jordan and Frankie are their biggest threats. However, I've got nothing negative to say about Jordan (my last few posts have even been defending him) and this is the first week where I've been so vocal against Frankie. I normally don't have a problem with Frankie; it's just that this week, there was a big disparity for me in what he actually accomplished and the response he received.

[boyznkatz]

51 minutes ago, calipiano81 said:

I think Frankie/Witney CAN be singled out. Nick and Nikki also did contemporary this season. Again, while not great representations of real contemporary, their dances had more dance content than what Witney put together for Frankie. 

And then there was Jordan's contemporary this season. For obvious reasons, I won't try to compare it dance-wise to Frankie's, but you can see how it might bug some people that Jordan got a 29, while Frankie got a 30 based solely on his acting skills.

Well I agree that Frankie was overscored and Jordan was ripped off. No doubt about that. I just think a lot of people get a pass on the crap they call contemporary, not just him.

I'm calling it that Frankie is doing the tour. I can't think of any other reason that they would be so invested in him all of a sudden.

[realdancemom]

32 minutes ago, calipiano81 said:

None of the celebs are trained in Standard and Latin ballroom. Should we then not care whether they learn and perform ballroom technique?

No, but for DWTS, the judges do look at ballroom technique.  My comment was based on the over scoring of contemporary for non-trained dancers.  As I previously mentioned, I hate most of the contemporary and jazz on this show.  I'm team Jordan and Lindsay so I'm not rooting for Frankie to win.  If I was going to complain on the scoring for this week, it would be the Team dances' scoring not Frankie's contemporary score.  No way should Team Phantom received perfect 10s.  They weren't synchronized and their formations were off.  There was an agenda.  But the judges could have followed this agenda by giving all 9's not 10's.

[heartsaperkin]

On 11/1/2017 at 7:09 PM, Andie1 said:

Well he isn't very forthcoming about why he doesn't go to doctors and yet people think his poop doesn't stink.   I really don't care. I think his acting is crap and  I just think its rich to knock Jordan for being well spoken and matter of fact about what he went through as a kid.

A fried of a friend of a fiend of his told me he was a zombie in2008 ,and that’s why his contemp hit all the bases.

[spanana]

5 hours ago, calipiano81 said:

I think Frankie/Witney CAN be singled out. Nick and Nikki also did contemporary this season. Again, while not great representations of real contemporary, their dances had more dance content than what Witney put together for Frankie. 

And then there was Jordan's contemporary this season. For obvious reasons, I won't try to compare it dance-wise to Frankie's, but you can see how it might bug some people that Jordan got a 29, while Frankie got a 30 based solely on his acting skills.

But you can't compare scoring on different weeks of the competition between different celebs and expect it to make sense, and this goes for anyone.  First, scores are relative to the timing of the competition.  A contestant can come out and do a perfect contemporary or whatever week one, but you are never going to get a perfect score because the judges aren't going to give anyone a perfect score on week one.  Or normally in week 2 or week 3 (except one weird anomaly season where the judges started handing out perfect jazz scores on week 3 for sort of whatever routines).  Scores are also often relative to the order in which people dance.  Going earlier in the show, particularly in the first few shows, will equate to lower scores most of the time.  People that go first can get lowballed, though this happens less the further we got into the season.

Also as its been said time and time again, people are for the most part competing against themselves.  I am not going to be outraged that Frankie got a higher contemp score than Jordan, especially when it didn't happen on the same week.  Frankie is mostly competing against Frankie and Jordan is competing against Jordan.  They didn't come in at the same level of experience, so they are not going to be scored on the same level.

I am not by any means outraged that Frankie got higher contemporary scores than Nikki or Nick.  Mostly because I can't for the life of me remember what boring not overly well performed dances they danced and I can remember what Frankie danced.  So memorable and well acted beats weak to mediocre all around.

I know I sound like a broken record, but it is 100% beneficial for Jordan to not be at the top of the leaderboard every week.  If he was he would have next to no chance of winning.  However there tends to be this sense of IMO misplaced outrage that he isn't just being handed perfect scores every week when that wouldn't remotely be to his benefit in the long run.  He's better off this way.

[truthaboutluv]

YMMV but I thought Frankie's contemporary was way better than Nikki's - story wise, choreography wise and performance wise.

Edited November 4, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[boyznkatz]

Nikki was gorgeous and seemed nice, but I don't remember any of her dances at all.

[luvthepros]

Just finished watching the Halloween show. I know; late to the party. I have only one dance I wish to comment on........ Frankie and Witney were awesome. I didn't know Frankie had that in him. He is the dorky funny guy, right? Not anymore for me. He is one hell of an actor to pull that off. I LOVED the choreography which was so absolutely chilling. If Frankie had that vision, he has an excellent eye. If it was a collaborative effort, they were totally spot on with the concept, Just WOW!!!

[MsJamieDornan]

On ‎11‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 6:05 AM, calipiano81 said:

Contemporary dance emphasizes emotional expression, but it has recognizable elements and standards of technique just like any other dance style.

I'm interested, what are some of the elements that should be included?

[calipiano81]

3 hours ago, MsJamieDornan said:

I'm interested, what are some of the elements that should be included?

I'm not a contemporary dance expert by any means. Everything I know comes from watching SYTYCD.

I don't believe there are required elements per se, but trained contemporary dancers typically incorporate elements and techniques of ballet -- various types of leg, arm and body positions, leaps, turns, pirouettes, pointed toes, turned-out feet, extended body lines, etc.

A more "modern" vein of contemporary features more angular movement and you are more likely to see flexed feet.

And then some dancers get into contemporary fusion, where they mix traditional contemporary with other styles such as hip hop.

Unfortunately, IMO DWTS has done contemporary (and jazz) a disservice by making it essentially "anything-goes," even if that means just running around, waving your arms, and looking angsty.

Edited November 5, 2017 by calipiano81

[MsJamieDornan]

1 hour ago, calipiano81 said:

Unfortunately, IMO DWTS has done contemporary (and jazz) a disservice by making it essentially "anything-goes," even if that means just running around, waving your arms, and looking angsty

Great description.  And don't forget rolling on the floor, reaching to the sky, riding the pretend bike, clenched fists, throwing yourself at your partner and you know the rest.

[luvthepros]

8 hours ago, calipiano81 said:

 

And then some dancers get into contemporary fusion, where they mix traditional contemporary with other styles such as hip hop.

 

Lex Ishimoto is a master at this fusion style. Look him up on YouTube if you aren’t familiar with him. 

[friendperidot]

Marykat, MsJanieDornon and filmtvgeek, (I may have missed letters and numbers in your names, sorry). you do all know that you can put people on "ignore", don't you? This is the only thread I have done that with. I get annoyed with some people in some other places, but this particular subject can be really divisive, and I don't even want to deal with people.

Now to the show, I was ok with the eliminations, they were neither one going to win, Vanessa was pretty good and I was glad she stopped all the mommy stuff the last couple of weeks, Maks was an ass, he's been an ass for a long time, I used to like watching him, but I really don't care any more. I never felt much of a connection to Nikki. 

Drew & Terrell & Victoria can go in which ever order, next. I don't enjoy Drew, but he does seem to be trying and improving. Terrell also has improved and it appears his relationship with Cheryl has improved and he's listening and following directions...or they're better at acting like it when the camera's on, but I think he has changed his attitude and is improving. I finished typing this whole thing and realized I had forgotten Victoria, so that probably says all about how I feel about her. She's amazing as a person and what she's accomplished, but I just don't think she's earned a spot in the finals.

I think the final 3 should be Lindsay, Jordan and Frankie. I am enjoying Mark this season and I'm not really a Mark fan, I think the time away from the show did help him and me. I hope her injury gets better soon, I don't like to see people in pain. I never heard of Jordan before this season and yes, he has training, but I'm ok with it, I enjoy he's extra movements and finishes. I had heard of Frankie before, but I never watched his show, he's won me over with his enthusiasm, he's not the greatest dancer, but he enjoys and he's fun to watch. I don't know that I care which one of these 3 win. I'll be sad for 2 and 3 and happy for 1, they've all done a good job and made the season enjoyable.

[realdancemom]

15 hours ago, calipiano81 said:

I don't believe there are required elements per se, but trained contemporary dancers typically incorporate elements and techniques of ballet -- various types of leg, arm and body positions, leaps, turns, pirouettes, pointed toes, turned-out feet, extended body lines, etc.

A more "modern" vein of contemporary features more angular movement and you are more likely to see flexed feet.

And then some dancers get into contemporary fusion, where they mix traditional contemporary with other styles such as hip hop.

Unfortunately, IMO DWTS has done contemporary (and jazz) a disservice by making it essentially "anything-goes," even if that means just running around, waving your arms, and looking angsty.

For competition dance, judges do want to see certain elements in contemporary and jazz.  They have score sheets to judge on how well a person/team turns, leaps, etc.  If they don't do these elements, then they can't judge them.  So they will get marked down if they don't have enough technique in their routines.  They will also get judged on costumes, choreography, can't take too long to set-up or clean up after your dance, etc.  Other things that get scored for teams are synchronization and formations.  This is for ballroom as well as other dance competitions. 

However, if a person is choreographing for a non-competition performance, then there aren't required elements for contemporary.  I actually hate a lot of competition routines since it's just trick after trick.  There is no artistry.  I do like to watch contemporary routines that are performed by people with a lot of ballet training.  That's because their feet are naturally pointed and beveled.  Their legs and arms are not lazy and extend to the other side of the room, etc.  Plus their body flows effortlessly from one move to another.  You don't see them do a pose and then awkwardly transition to another.  They also know how to move their head, chest, legs, arms, etc. together.  They just don't place their hand or feet in a position because of the choreography.  You can do these things without fancy tricks.  I do like to see turns and leaps but I want them to be a natural extension of the choreography and not put in there to earn points.

It is true that contemporary and jazz are always changing.  Since my daughters are younger and cross-trained, the dances that they perform or choreograph mix contemporary, jazz, hip-hop, and ballroom.  They usually don't mix all four of them together but they combine two or three of them in one dance.  I like how a lot of songs lend themselves to that too.

[MsJamieDornan]

10 hours ago, friendperidot said:

Marykat, MsJanieDornon and filmtvgeek, (I may have missed letters and numbers in your names, sorry). you do all know that you can put people on "ignore", don't you?

Yes,  why ?

[jay741982]

On 11/1/2017 at 2:32 AM, Star Aristille said:

Even over Terrell and Drew?  Ohhhhhhhh, no.  Not a chance.

Oh yeah Terrell and Drew were easily the weakest left 

[spunky]

On 11/1/2017 at 0:05 PM, majormama said:

Frankie's dance was creeeeeepy! I normally hate contemporary with a passion, but I was drawn in so quickly, I forgot to hate it. I had a mentally ill stalker for a short time, and found the whole thing uncomfortable. But it certainly wasn't boring! 

Val is really bugging me this season. The way he talks to and works with Victoria is just off. I can't really point to anything specific, but the feminist-ableist-whateverist in me is pinging. It started with the swim-off a few weeks ago, although I gave that a pass at the time because I assumed it was some dumb producer-driven set up to create a package. But the condescending tone has continued. He usually reaches a point every season where his desire to win sucks all the fun out of it for the celebrity, and then he has to apologize and make it fun again. And it kind of seemed like that, only he doesn't expect to actually win with Victoria and he's condescending as a result, and also not trying to make it fun. (Watch, next week will be the apology and the fun-again dance.)

His attitude seems off this season because he couldn't pull his crap with Normani . He did an interview with her where he was trying to be condescending and was shut down with a vicious side eye. Victoria through no fault of her own has the same maturity level as Laurie, hence he treats her like a child.