S13.E03: Patience

[Wynne88]

I liked the actress who is playing Patience, but I didn't buy her as a high school girl.  She looked too mature to me.

Was it Berens who said that he thought we'd be pleased with what Sam got to do in this episode?  Because I'm not.  Just saying.

The guys did a good job with that last scene.

[Pondlass1]

My only ??? ... Dean looked so much shorter the way it was shot.. Camera angles or something.  But some great acting. Dean makes sense.  Sam's using....

[SueB]

Short bits:

- Jody's I 'had' a daughter could have been her using past tense in reference to the event. OR we could find out that Claire has been radio silent since the werewolf incident.  But she's not dead because she was on the "still to be killed" board (as opposed to deceased) for the British Men of Letters

- Jody is still a sheriff.  She used her position to get information (hence her thanks to the local PD) and her business card had the star on it.  She just wasn't in uniform.  Which is appropriate, because she's out of her jurisdiction.  Now MAYBE she's hunting more and won't have run in the next election, but I don't think her being in civilian clothes or available for this hunt was a sign.  

- I agree with those who say Jack calling out to Cas woke him up in The Empty.  I don't know if he's resurrected but I think he may be in a 'state' that others don't achieve in the Empty now that Jack has shouted.

- Sam and Dean have GOT to learn to keep theses arguments behind closed doors.  The argument was fine. It was from the gut and needed to happen.  But calling the kid a 'freak' within earshot?  Not cool.  Now, I realize Dean has no f*cks to give about Jack (or he doesn't WANT to have any f*cks to give) but he wouldn't call Jack a freak to his face -- so don't say it behind his back.  

- On the argument: So THAT's the issue for Dean.  I mean obviously there's plenty of reasons for him to think Jack must die despite him appearing to be a cinnamon roll BUT he's holding Jack culpable for Cas' vision when Jack was in the womb.  He's presuming Jack intetionally mislead Cas. That Jack showed Cas what he wanted to see so as to gain Cas' protection.  It goes back to Dean saying that Cas was 'not Cas' when he chose to go off with Kelly and away from the brothers.  THIS IS REALLY COMPLICATED.  Let me unpack just a bit more.  IF Jack manipulated Cas, as Dean feels, then Dean thinks that Jack either just doesn't remember he's evil or he's evil and playing the boys.  Either way, Dean sees the vision Jack showed Cas as signs of a mature intellect versus the somewhat blank slate Jack is right now.  Dean's believes that the mature intellect in the womb was EVIL -- because Cas is dead.  On the one hand, it's a very cogent point.  The fetus showed Cas a utopian future. Cas died protecting the infant. IF that was just an instictive or manipulative response by the fetus, even if Jack doesn't remember, THEN that is (like Amara) a personality trait that will eventually show up.  Of course this is somewhat countered by Dean's belief that Cas was manipulated.  That's an argument Cas and Dean are going to have to have.  They didn't resolve this before Cas died.  Why did Cas just leave the boys and run off?  Was it a lack of trust? Was it manipulation? Was it Cas feeling that there was too much risk in trying to convince the boys?  What part of that decision does Cas own?  If he owns ALL of that decison, then Dean is once again in the position of being mad at someone he cares about but who is dead.  And his Mother has done an EXCELLENT job of already holding that role in Dean's life for 35 years.  PLUS, she just did it again (chose to take on Lucifer and die ... right when Dean/Mary had reconcilled).  So yeah... that's more crap to be dealing with than the average Joe.  So... it's SO MUCH EASIER to just presume that Jack is ultimately going to remember he's evil or is evil and playing them.  It's a VALID option and it spares Cas from having to answer for his actions (in Dean's mind).  Shit, this is complex.  

- On Sam's side of the argument: Well touche, Dean.  Sam HAS been selling him as a can opener to you.  And I have no doubt that this is PART of Sam's motivation.  But I also think Sam is sincere about Jack deserving a chance.  SO.. Sam's logic for emphasizing the can opener value in his past arguments with Dean is up for examination.  Did he do that for expediency?  Because he thought that would be the winning argument?  Did he do that because that really IS his only motivation?  Did he do that because he didn't want to touch the demon blood 'freak' argument again?  Personally I think it was a combination of 1) a winning argument and 2) not wanting to touch the demon blood 'freak' issue again.  I think Sam really DOES see Jack as more than a can opener and to have emphasized that aspect in his argument with Dean was a bit manipulative.  And he deserved Dean calling him out on it.  But Dean should realize the connection Sam has made between himself and Jack.  Of course, for reasons stated in the long-assessed paragraph above,  Dean is so committed to his view on Jack right now... he's not really paying attention to all the angles.  I.E, if Dean is not seeing Jack remotely as a cinnamon roll -- he may not have seen the Sam/Jack obvious connection.  Or he doesn't WANT to see it.  

Well, Bobo gave us another MEATY brothers episode even if they weren't sharing the screen for most of it.  

Regrets:
- I'm okay with Missouri dying (even though I liked her) because it shows just how 'dead' Dean is inside.  And YES, it's using a supporting character to show the motivation of one of the leads.  That's often the ROLL of a supporting character.  So, I'm okay with it BUT, I still wish she had managed to live.  I liked her.
- Jody should have really had a conversation w/ Dean.  His 'no f*cks to give' attitude is not long term emotionally healthy and it may put him off a step.
- I don't for a MINUTE think the wraith was EVER good enough to kill Dean BUT there is something to be said for distracted hunting OR that ANY monster is potentially dangerous and all it takes is a single slip-up and either brother could be killed.  So... okay... but when Jody said 'you still got it', Dean could have responded 'It's easy to forget that even a 'routine' monster can still kill you if you're having an off day. I'm glad I didn't have an off day.'  Then THAT would have justified the necessity of Patience' vision. Although really, I'm not sure how much it helped Dean.  Her Dad was obvious, Jody just a hair's breath faster due to warning... Dean?  Not sure it was even that much of a warning (as they filmed it).  

[Pete Martell]

I haven't watched in a few years...I was going to watch when I read Missouri would be back, but then I realized she was likely just going to be killed off as every viable supporting character is, so I decided to wait and see. 

I guess I got my answer...

[roctavia]

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

This one was kind of all over the place.  I thought the acting was lacking, as was the dialogue.  Sam wants to save Jack because he sees himself in him, and Dean blames Jack for Cas' death.  Ho hum...  I hope we can move past this part of the story fairly soon.

Were we supposed to be stunned to see Cas at the end?  I'm not sure why the show runners insist on ruining their own surprises, but it definitely kills any shock value they might get.  This episode left me more than a bit underwhelmed, sadly.

Yes, I wish they would have just ended with Jack saying Castiel and the glowing eyes.... Void Cass can show up next week!

[catrox14]

So....when did Cas tell Dean that Jack told him about paradise?

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Jody is still a sheriff.  She used her position to get information (hence her thanks to the local PD) and her business card had the star on it.  She just wasn't in uniform.  Which is appropriate, because she's out of her jurisdiction.  Now MAYBE she's hunting more and won't have run in the next election, but I don't think her being in civilian clothes or available for this hunt was a sign.  

I just don't understand how she got from "I caught something over the wires that I thought might be a case for you," to Sam calling to give *her* a case and not even offering backup.  Surely there are more experienced hunters still out there (even after the BMoL battle last year?) 

I'm assuming they're doing a slow rewrite so the Wayward Sisters setup won't be so completely out of the blue, since it sounds like they're all going to be hunters.  I just wish they'd actually acknowledge canon once in a while and come up with some logical reason to make changes.  

[catrox14]

Bless TippiTV as always

Quote

tippitv

October 26th 2017, 9:08:40 pm · an hour ago

Dean: Jack is the Antichrist.

Me:

 

 

[Miles]

Castiel is alive again? I'm shocked, shocked I tell you. /sarcasticmonotonevoice

I don't even follow spoilers or anything. It was just obvious when they had the actor back for the first episode this season, playing a corpse, while they didn't have the actress for Jack's mother.

 

Rest of the episode was meh. I think that vision-fakeout was supposed to be shocking, but the moment Jodie died in that unceremonious way, it was clear that it was just a vision. You can only hope that psychic girl will go back to a normal life and we'll never see her again. Otherwise she'll be dead in 1-2 seasons.

[SueB]

31 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So....when did Cas tell Dean that Jack told him about paradise?

In the hotel room when the boys caught up with Cas and Kelly.

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, SueB said:

In the hotel room when the boys caught up with Cas and Kelly.

That was my misconception as well, but then I remembered that Cas didn't get the vision of the future until Jack powered him up to kill Dagon. He told Kelly about the vision before they drove off in Cas' truck.

Then I thought about 12.23 but it didn't happen then either because Cas came back from the Rift and talked to Kelly about paradise before Dean and Sam showed up at the lake house (why do all the shitty things happen to Cas at lake houses. They should never got to a lake house again). Dean said something to Cas about believing in the devils unborn BabyGod when they were in the AU, but Cas never told him anything about Paradise.

So I can't find any point on screen between the end of the Future and 12.23 where that conversation took place. Dean thought something was wrong with Cas in 12.20, and he surmised that Cas had been brainwashed because of his behavior. But that's it, Nothing said about Paradise and peace.

 

18 minutes ago, SueB said:

In the hotel room when the boys caught up with Cas and Kelly.

[Ria]

I cannot stand Dean anymore. He’s always been a self righteous hypocritical jackass but he’s reaching new lows with Jack. Just disgusting. 

[companionenvy]

Not as good as the last two, IMO.

I'm fairly tolerant of "retcons," but agree that Missouri being a hunter doesn't pass the smell test. She was never presented as a hunter. She was a working psychic who may have been plugged into the hunter network, but there was no indication that she was going out on cases, let alone regularly enough for her to have been an absentee mom. It just doesn't gel with what we saw of her in "Home." Sam and Dean's relationship with her also didn't make sense. Sam and Dean met Missouri once twelve years ago. They haven't bothered to get in touch with one another since. Yet they are acting as if she's an old friend. Why?

More than that, I found her family drama emotionally unconvincing. So, your loving, if not always present, psychic mom, who has apparently given you ample, perhaps even daily manifestations of her abilities over the years, gets something wrong, so you decide to never speak to her again and stop trusting her visions? Why couldn't the backstory have been something about the supernatural world getting Patience's mom killed, and the father deciding that Missouri could only have contact with them if she ignored her gifts and cut off contact with the wider hunting/psychic community? That would have made sense; the other explanation doesn't. 

I did like Patience well enough.

As for Sam/Dean/Jack - I do think Sam cares about Jack for reasons other than his desire to use him. He's being disingenuous in claiming to Dean that his motivations are purely practical, which is annoying. I do like the iraming of Sam trying to train Jack in using powers right as a mirror to his own past of using powers wrong.. It always bugged me that the line on Sam's powers wound up being "don't use them, they're evil" as opposed to "use them well," so the fact that they're allowing him to take a different route here works for me. I think Dean made some good points in the final argument, and Jensen acted it brilliantly as usual, but I am largely on Sam's side on this one, and I think Dean's response is coming more from fury and grief over Mary and (especially) Cas than reason or instinct. In context, Dean telling Jack he was going to kill him wasn't as bad as Sam (understandably) assumed from Jack's comment, but that coupled with his obvious hostility toward the kid is damaging to Jack, and Sam had a right to call him out on it, although Dean is right to call Sam out on his disingenuous "we're only using him" pose as well. 

[flyinghigh]

Not sure how I feel about this episode. 

- Did not like Missouri  dead. I was hoping that she would be paired up with Patience and that would be another set of female hunters. I was not overly fond of her, but she was better than so many other characters who have survived. 

- Jody, the hunter and the sheriff - enough has been said in so many posts above. I too don't get how can leave her duties on a moments notice and how can Sam send her without back up. If Patience's vision had come true she would be dead.

- Jack - I still like him. But when he goes evil, and he will, writers are taking him in that direction, and will solely blame Dean - I am not sure he would be the character about whom I would like to talk about.

- That brings me to  Dean. 

The first scene where he was emptying bottles of beer with stoic expression - I assumed it was because of the scene he had witnessed in the bathroom - Jack stabbing himself. At least partly, he is still mourning his mother and Cas. Apparently I was wrong - in the the last scene confrontation with Sam, he calls him a 'freak'. FREAK?? Really?? That's Dean talking?????? I get it he is very upset about mom and Cas, but he voluntarily went for hunting, saving lives. And still someone is a Freak?? 

And Sam blaming Dean - It took me a long time to accept Sam's self-centered attitude, specially when it comes to his behaviour with Dean. But here it is again. Even if I accept he is saving Jack because he cares for him or thinks of his own past darkness and hence empathizing, does that mean he can accuse Dean of anything? Dean will save Sam because he is "wired" to do so (yes Sam, he has his wires crossed in his brain - he will sell his soul to save Sam).  But any monster, evil or one which can harm - Dean deals with them the way he knows best. 

The MOTW - wraith - why didn't Sam try and save him too? I am sure he had a back story too - if someone asked him. Remember season 1 Skin? Freak of nature. No one wanted? If Sam had gone and asked him the wraith would have definitely indulged him. 

When Sam accused Dean of telling Jack that he will kill him, Dean did say, it was different, meaning context is required. At least that is how i I interpreted. Dean was very clear with Jack that he will kill him if he turns evil. Is it just me who thinks that this whole thing has been blown out of proportion - by both Jack and Sam?  Dean will kill anything evil- period. BUT HE WILL NOT KILL IF JACK DOESN'T TURN EVIL. How is that statement pushing Jack to becoming evil? 

I need to watch this episode again - once I have cooled down. I don't like being angry with Sam. And I really like Jack.

Oh did I mention Jody seemed a bit off - don't know. Or maybe the actress sole purpose to be here in this episode was to have enough characters and stories for the spinoff?? 

Now I am bitter and bi^^y. Apologies. Need time off.

[flyinghigh]

12 minutes ago, flyinghigh said:

The first scene where he was emptying bottles of beer with stoic expression - I assumed it was because of the scene he had witnessed in the bathroom - Jack stabbing himself. At least partly, he is still mourning his mother and Cas. Apparently I was wrong - in the the last scene confrontation with Sam, he calls him a 'freak'. FREAK?? Really?? That's Dean talking?????? I get it he is very upset about mom and Cas, but he voluntarily went for hunting, saving lives. And still someone is a Freak?? 

Here I am blaming the writers, in case it is misinterpreted.

I was so hoping after the stabbing scene there would be a change in Dean' attitude. No, Jack will not become family overnight, but at least Dean should not be calling him a freak.

I don't get it - Jack was self-harming and writers made Dean call him a freak!! 

Edited October 27, 2017 by flyinghigh

[Harry Potter]

There's so many on Dean's side. I, however, am leaning towards Sam, or in other words Jack. 

 

This all comes down to nature vs nurture as the prophet said in the previous episode. In reality, both have major impacts on how a person becomes who he or she is. 

 

Dean is right in that we should be warily about Jack because we don't know what he is capable of or how to stop him. But that's where my support for Dean ends. That is the only logical con of Jack. 

 

Now we get to Sam. Although, yes, he wants to use Jack to get their mom back, there's a bigger picture and Sam realizes that in this episode.

 

He begin to see himself in Jack and what he had to go through. How he felt: dark, evil, dangerous, unsavable, alone, confused, and unsure of who he is or what he's capable of, intentionally or unintentionally. 

 

This is more relatable and perhaps even harder than what Sam has been through. Sam already has the experience from what's right and wrong, good or bad, skills, and having loved ones always being there for him. 

 

Jack has none of those. He was literally born a few days ago and he has to meet all this dilemma at once. Imagine you're born and suddenly you're faced with your unknown and dangerous existence. 

 

Sam begins to see that Jack may actually be brought up good. Jack does have free will (from what we can see so far). He is powerful, but with great power comes great responsibility. It doesn't necessarily mean those powers are only for evil. Look at Lucifer. All his powers are what the other archangels have. It's just the way one choose use them. 

This is more evident that Jack was borned and forged out of love,  despite being the spawn of Lucifer, when he was shown the video of his loving mother. He was brought to this world by a loving mom and a caring and father figure, Cas. Even Jack questions his own existence and how he already hurt so many and even killed his mom. Self-reflection like this can be directed towards good as it's insightful. You can either use that reflection by choosing your own path and won't use your power for evil again or succumb and follow that dark path that already occurred that he inadvertently caused. 

 

In the last scene, we can see Jack finally realizing how strongly his birth caused Cas to die (although that was Lucifer, you can't blame an unborn for what happened). Jack saw Cas as his father and he can only use his powers when he feels emotional. And guess what? Instead of anger like how he used his powers before, we see for the first time a different emotion. More sensitive, more vulnerable, more human. And he reached out to Cas. Somewhere in the abyss. 

 

All in all, I really feel like Sam is giving Jack the chance he deserves. Like all the Monsters they gave a chance to when they chose not to hurt even when it's their nature (ie. The werewolves girl they let go and Dean's vamp friend). This 13 seasons taught me that that's who the Winchester brothers are. They save people and fight monsters. But they show mercy and believe in the good even to the most disputable (Crowley ? ). They still have a soul and they will not become the monsters they fight. 

Dean just lost too many in one day and he just had enough. But they been down this road many times and they never gave up. It's sad Dean really did give up. He prayed to Chuck, no answer. He fought for the good, and they get screwed. And the list goes on. It saddened me when he used the word freak.. He of all people should know how damaging and hurtful it can be esp for someone who is trying to figure who they are.. 

 

Hopefully, in the end.. We can see Jack and Dean having a cold beer on a pier at a lake in the fall. Dean looks down at Jack by his side and smiles in comfort and trust and puts a hand on Jack's shoulder as in the distance Sam and Castiel are in the back prepping for the fishing trip. Jack, now seen as family after everything they went through, still is figuring out so much about life.. Like thinking, "why do they like this odd bitter drink" , as he stares studiously at the bottle as if trying to solve the world's biggest problem. 

Edited October 27, 2017 by Harry Potter

[companionenvy]

1 hour ago, flyinghigh said:

Did not like Missouri  dead.

I don't particularly care about Missouri either, but I had the same reaction -- SPN's habit of bringing back characters just to kill them is beyond annoying. There is no real reason we ever needed to see Missouri Mosely again; Patience could have been a psychic without being related to her. To bring a character key to the show's mythology back after a twelve year absence to kill her before the halfway point in the episode is just silly. 

1 hour ago, flyinghigh said:

Jody, the hunter and the sheriff - enough has been said in so many posts above. I too don't get how can leave her duties on a moments notice and how can Sam send her without back up. If Patience's vision had come true she would be dead.

Eh, this is a show that doesn't feel the need to explain why no one ever recognizes two super attractive, six-foot plus tall brothers driving a vintage Impala as the supposedly dead serial killers who have been the subject of multiple federal manhunts, or why no one identifies Cas with the being who was walking around performing miracles while proclaiming himself to be God, as reported on international news. Compared to that, I can live with Jody having very flexible work hours. I don't think Sam sending her without backup is a problem at all, though, as there was no indication this was anything other than a routine case, and I can buy that Jody is by now a reasonably experienced hunter. She's probably at least as experienced as plenty of the people Bobby was sending out on cases when he ran the hunter's network. Hunters run a real risk of dying on every case, but this one wasn't particularly special.

 

1 hour ago, flyinghigh said:

The MOTW - wraith - why didn't Sam try and save him too? I am sure he had a back story too - if someone asked him. Remember season 1 Skin? Freak of nature. No one wanted? If Sam had gone and asked him the wraith would have definitely indulged him. 

I don't think that's an equivalent situation, because the wraith was going around deliberately killing people, and Jack has not purposely harmed anyone, and has indeed expressed a desire not to do so. Lots of killers have their reasons. That doesn't mean you let them go. But Jack isn't in that category yet.

[ahrtee]

I have to say (again) I hate the way the writers have made Jack into a black-and-white issue, as to whether he's pure evil or just a blank slate that can choose to be good.  I hate the fact that they have the boys pitted against each other (again) in the exact same fight they outgrew 10 years ago.  

I can understand Dean being wary, but I hate that they're making him be so unwilling to give the benefit of the doubt,  though he did show that he's not going to try to kill him immediately.  I think it's more like Amy Pond's son:  while Dean did believe he would go bad eventually, he let him go *until he started killing.*  Dean told the kid then, too, that if he killed anyone he would be after him.  He gave him the chance to make his own choices, but let him know he'd be watching (with a weapon if necessary.)  But he's less patient with Jack because, well, he has more potential for truly "evil" as opposed to just killing a few random people for food.  

I can also understand Sam wanting to give Jack a chance.  That's the way he has been (except for Benny, and we're not going there today.)  But what I truly hate, and think is *really* stupid, is Sam equating himself with Jack, as if he can't see the difference between a human child "tainted" by a few drops of demon blood or even doing bad things under the influence of an addiction, and the FREAKING SON OF SATAN.   Even if he's willing to give Jack the benefit of the doubt (and I have no problem with that), surely he can see that they're really *not* equivalent, and it's rather naive (at best) of him to say they are, and *especially* to blame Dean for *not* believing they're the same.  

Edited October 27, 2017 by ahrtee

[companionenvy]

23 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

as if he can't see the difference between a human child "tainted" by a few drops of demon blood or even doing bad things under the influence of an addiction, and the FREAKING SON OF SATAN.   Even if he's willing to give Jack the benefit of the doubt (and I have no problem with that), surely he can see that they're really *not* equivalent, and it's rather naive (at best) of him to say they are, and *especially* to blame Dean for *not* believing they're the same.  

Yeah, i can see why he used the argument, but it isn't really equivalent. Also, that's not the best example, as Dean could answer, "Yeah, Sam, and you came really close to breaking the world, and a lot of people died." 

That conversation also had a little more LOL!Canon for us, IMO, in Sam's claim that he could have gone darkside but Dean stopped him/saved him. To which my response is...well, kind of. What actually happened is that Dean tried to stop Sam by telling him not to use his powers and locking him in the panic room, Cas let him out, Dean wasn't able to reach him in time, and Sam -- who  had always intended to do good with his powers -- realized he had been duped by Ruby into setting Lucifer free, at which point he was officially back on team good guys. Chuck detoxed him moments later; following that, he was remorseful and did what he could to repair his mistakes. I guess Dean helped to get Sam back on the wagon after My Bloody Valentine, but otherwise, he didn't really stop him.

Dean can be credited with not giving up on Sam (although he was damn close at the end of Season 4), and with forgiving him post-Apocalypse. But what happened in S4 is hardly a shining example of Person A leading Superpowered person B away from the dark side. 

[gonzosgirrl]

But...  But.. . Jack *is* a freak. He's the son of Lucifer. Half arch Angel, half human.  Kinda the the definition of freak. And Dean is still days out from seeing his mother and his best friend die as a direct result of his existence. If there is slack and benefit of doubt to be given, I think Sam owes it to Dean, not the stranger in the spare room. 

[Bessie]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And Dean is still days out from seeing his mother and his best friend die as a direct result of his existence. If there is slack and benefit of doubt to be given, I think Sam owes it to Dean, not the stranger in the spare room. 

Sam is also days out from those losses. Contrary to what we've seen on screen, I have to believe Sam is grieving. Maybe he deals with it by channeling his energies into something else. I think he's been remarkably understanding of Dean up until this point, considering he is experiencing profound grief himself. 

I don't blame Dean for not giving Sam the benefit of the doubt and he's right that they need to be wary of Jack. But, I also don't think Sam needs to put his own feelings and beliefs on hold because of Dean's grief. 

[Myrelle]

3 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Even if he's willing to give Jack the benefit of the doubt (and I have no problem with that), surely he can see that they're really *not* equivalent, and it's rather naive of him to say they are, and *especially* to blame Dean for *not* believing they're the same.  

The worst part of what Sam said was that Dean is the reason that the spawn is messed up. Is that the writers or is that Sam? I hope it's Sam because otherwise, this storyline just became more about Dean vs. Sam than about Nature vs. Nurture-at least from strictly the writing perspective, IMO. But that's something for the Bitch vs Jerk thread later.

I can't say that I liked the episode, but I did love the Dean stuff. All of it. Jensen has been amazing in these first three episodes. He's fighting the redundantly regressive writing of his character tooth and nail once again-and winning out over it once again too, IMO. I'll take this Dean any day over S12's ValiumDean, thank you very much. The passion is back. He was so raw in that scene. So angry. It won't last. I know that; but as someone else said, I'm just going to enjoy it while it lasts. And I kind of feel good about Dean possibly having another talk with the spawn after this one-and especially after what the spawn learned of some of his actions from the womb.

The hunt was good. RIP Misery Mosely. I'm very glad that her last appearance was less venomous with regards to Dean than her first; and this even though her "plan" was simply suicide by wraith, and it really didn't have to be that way. Nothing is set in stone, as she herself told her son. And Dean finally got the kill of the baddie again at the end of a wicked fight, which made me especially happy because I was expecting anyone, BUT Dean to get the kill in this one.

I found the Patience character unremarkable, but Jody's words at the end set up the spin-off(which I have no interest in whatsoever), so I'm thinking that scene was the all-important one for those two characters. And that was fine by me, too.

So, on the whole, not half as bad as I was expecting it would be, and that qualifies as good for me, at this point. Safe to watch for those Deanfans who are unsure, IMO. And definitely worth the watch if you still like/love The Ackles and his acting.

[Wynne88]

Although I thought the last scene was incredibly well acted, it annoyed me that what was said will almost certainly make Jack doubt Sam and his motivations for helping him.  He knew that Dean wasn't on his side; now he has basically been told that Sam is only being nice to him because he wants to use him.   While Sam does desperately hope he can get their mother back, I think that he truly is empathetic to Jack and his situation.  I can only assume that that was one of the primary purposes of the scene, since Sam wasn't given the words to refute it.

[Bessie]

10 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

I can only assume that that was one of the primary purposes of the scene, since Sam wasn't given the words to refute it.

I think you're right. It opens the door wider for the Cas as father role. Cas will be viewed by Jack as the only one who  is truly on his side: Sam's using him and Dean wants to kill him, but Cas accepts him. 

Edited October 27, 2017 by Bessie

[ILoveReading]

11 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

Although I thought the last scene was incredibly well acted, it annoyed me that what was said will almost certainly make Jack doubt Sam and his motivations for helping him.  He knew that Dean wasn't on his side; now he has basically been told that Sam is only being nice to him because he wants to use him.   While Sam does desperately hope he can get their mother back, I think that he truly is empathetic to Jack and his situation.  I can only assume that that was one of the primary purposes of the scene, since Sam wasn't given the words to refute it.

Then Sam should have been honest with Jack, because Dean isn't wrong that a big part of Sam's motivation is to us him to get their mom back. 

When Jack asked Sam why he was being so nice, Sam talked about how he sees himself in Jack and said he wanted to help him control his powers.  No mention that he hopes that Jack can open the rift again.    IMO, its manipulative.  So if Jack ends up thinking Sam is using him, that's on Sam. 

Edited October 27, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Myrelle]

8 minutes ago, Bessie said:

I think you're right. It opens the door wider for the Cas as father role. Cas will be viewed by Jack as the only one who  is truly on his side: Sam's using him and Dean wants to kill him, but Cas accepts him.

I think much will depend on what happens between Dean, Jack, and Sam from now on and until the time that Cas actually returns to all of them on earth.

[companionenvy]

58 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But...  But.. . Jack *is* a freak. He's the son of Lucifer. Half arch Angel, half human.  Kinda the the definition of freak. And Dean is still days out from seeing his mother and his best friend die as a direct result of his existence. If there is slack and benefit of doubt to be given, I think Sam owes it to Dean, not the stranger in the spare room

There are almost always nice and not-nice ways of saying something. There are plenty of nasty words for a lot of groups of people; that doesn't justify using the word.

Potentially, anyone with superpowers could be considered a freak. Certainly, Sam once met the definition. I'd say even natural psychics like Missouri or Patience would. 

Jack is unique. Calling him a freak is a choice.

[Myrelle]

Dean called himself a freak once. In Skin, I believe. 

[Wynne88]

Quote

Then Sam should have been honest with Jack, because Dean isn't wrong that a big part of Sam's motivation is to us him to get their mom back. 

When Jack asked Sam why he was being so nice, Sam talked about how he sees himself in Jack and said he wanted to help him control his powers.  No mention that he hopes that Jack can open the rift again.    IMO, its manipulative.  So if Jack ends up thinking Sam is using him, that's on Sam. 

I actually agree that Sam should have told him.  But while I think Sam's original purpose was simply to use him to get their mother back, I think he is now seeing Jack as a person with his own needs and insecurities rather than just a tool.  When he gave Jack his mother's video and watched him watch it (which I personally thought was kind of rude), I didn't have any doubt that Sam was feeling bad for him.   Ditto on dialing back the pressure to practice control of his power.   

On a side note, I would love to know why Dean thought Sam deserved to be saved.  It's been awhile, but I can't remember any redeeming qualities at that time other than the fact Sam was his brother.  Although we all say things when we're mad that we don't mean, that just seemed like a reach.

[Katy M]

11 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

On a side note, I would love to know why Dean thought Sam deserved to be saved.  It's been awhile, but I can't remember any redeeming qualities at that time other than the fact Sam was his brother.  Although we all say things when we're mad that we don't mean, that just seemed like a reach.

Probably because he was human.  He had done good things in the past.  He was trying to do the right thing, even though he totally went about it the wrong way and it blew up in his face.

[ILoveReading]

32 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

 

On a side note, I would love to know why Dean thought Sam deserved to be saved.  It's been awhile, but I can't remember any redeeming qualities at that time other than the fact Sam was his brother.  Although we all say things when we're mad that we don't mean, that just seemed like a reach.

Because Dean was brainwashed since he was four years old that Sam is his responsibility.   He was literally held responsible if something bad happened to Sam.  Sam seems to have some memory blocks about that whole demon blood time.  There was also the fact that Dean knew Sam for over 20 years.  Jack has done nothing to prove he deserves a chance.

Dean did try to support Sam.  He gave Ruby multiple chances.  He agreed to work with her.  He even told Sam he could keep his secrets just stop lying.  Then Sam lied about not lying.  Then Sam told Dean he went to Ruby because she let him make his own choices.  (Completely ignoring the fact that she didn't and manipulated him like a puppet but that's for another thread).  Sam didn't go dark side until he started using his powers.  He slide down that slippery slope to the point where Dean locked him up because he was becoming a danger to himself and others.  The use of those powers was a big contributing factor to the start of an apocalypse. 

Now, Sam wants Dean to help him help Jack embrace his powers when in the end its what lead to Sam's downfall.  So I can't blame Dean for not wanting to go there. 

So maybe, I sucked demon blood isn't the best argument for Sam to use here. 

Edited October 27, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Bessie]

I think Sam may have made a mistake with Jack by retconning Castiel's role in the apocalypse 1.0 and it's aftermath. Cas never helped Sam with his powers and up until the very end, he had no interest in saving Sam. He was manipulative throughout most of the time leading up to the apocalypse and after it was over, he was very judgemental about Sam without ever acknowledging to Sam his own role in what went down. 

If Sam had used both of their pasts and their relationship as an example, it might have helped Jack accept that he can screw up and still be good. That his choices are critical to the outcome. Instead, he lied about their past relationship. He could have made the same argument without mentioning Cas  

I understand Sam was probably thinking too much info or maybe that it wasn't his story to tell, but I think it may have been a lost opportunity to get through to Jack.  At the very least, he didn't need to lie about Cas to Jack.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, Bessie said:

I think Sam may have made a mistake with Jack by retconning Castiel's role in the apocalypse 1.0 and it's aftermath. Cas never helped Sam with his powers and up until the very end, he had no interest in saving Sam. He was manipulative throughout most of the time leading up to the apocalypse and after it was over, he was very judgemental about Sam without ever acknowledging to Sam his own role in what went down. 

If Sam had used both of their pasts and their relationship as an example, it might have helped Jack accept that he can screw up and still be good. That his choices are critical to the outcome. Instead, he lied about their past relationship. He could have made the same argument without mentioning Cas  

I understand Sam was probably thinking too much info or maybe that it wasn't his story to tell, but I think it may have been a lost opportunity to get through to Jack.  At the very least, he didn't need to lie about Cas to Jack.

I'm not entirely sure why, but I feel like Sam has always looked at Cas through rose-colored glasses.  Like in Reading Is Fundamental, when he told Cas that he knew that he knew that he never did anything but try to help.  Yes, Sam, breaking your wall was extremely helpful. 

I'm trying to think of the first time that you could really say that Cas helped Sam.  It certainly wasn't in Season 4, unless letting him out of the panic room counted as helping, and I'm not even sure Sam kows that he did that.  So, I'm going to go with Abandon All Hope when he zapped Sam and Dean away from Lucifer. 

And the only time I can think of him helping with the demon blood is My Bloody Valentine. 

Then, accidentally, or not, Cas was responsible for Sam losing his soul and he didn't really do anything to help get it back.  And broke his wall when he did have it back.  Although, he did fix that problem, so I'll give him that much. 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

There are almost always nice and not-nice ways of saying something. There are plenty of nasty words for a lot of groups of people; that doesn't justify using the word.

Potentially, anyone with superpowers could be considered a freak. Certainly, Sam once met the definition. I'd say even natural psychics like Missouri or Patience would. 

Jack is unique. Calling him a freak is a choice.

But this is Dean we're talking about; it's how he talks. He called Sam a freak, too - both in a joking and non-joking manner.  And he didn't know Jack was eavesdropping, but I think he would've said the same, partly because he's Dean and mostly because he's messed up. The spawn of Satan told Sam Dean said he would kill him - maybe Sam could've given his brother the benefit of the doubt and asked, first, before going off on him? Both boys are grieving and it comes out as anger in this scene. I'm taking bets on who does the apologizing later.

Edited October 27, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Pondlass1]

Wow - loads of online Dean hate cos he yells at Sam.  I get the impression the show's audience is getting younger and younger.  Maybe that's a good thing ratings wise - but the young'uns have yet to learn that hurting folk yell and sometimes it's awful mean.  A sit down politically correct, reasonable soft spoken talk would have been a bit out of place and not advanced the plot one bit.  Dean yells, get over it.  

Still - on the other hand - you'd think they'd whisper.  Jack could be in the vicinity and probably has super duper hearing.

Why didn't the wraith die prettily like Amy Pond? No mirrors in her home I guess? Dean got so much flack for that.  Did the age match up - could that have been her son?

But I say again, I enjoyed the episode.  Fingers crossed for a .7 again (but I doubt it).

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Wow - loads of online Dean hate cos he yells at Sam.  I get the impression the show's audience is getting younger and younger.  Maybe that's a good thing ratings wise - but the young'uns have yet to learn that hurting folk yell and sometimes it's awful mean.  A sit down politically correct, reasonable soft spoken talk would have been a bit out of place and not advanced the plot one bit.  Dean yells, get over it.  

Still - on the other hand - you'd think they'd whisper.  Jack could be in the vicinity and probably has super duper hearing.

Why didn't the wraith die prettily like Amy Pond? No mirrors in her home I guess? Dean got so much flack for that.  Did the age match up - could that have been her son?

But I say again, I enjoyed the episode.  Fingers crossed for a .7 again (but I doubt it).

Amy wasn't a wraith - the wraith was the nurse in Sam, Interrupted (Pudding!!).

Grey's was back this week, so I doubt the ratings will hold (it was off last week).

[Pondlass1]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Amy wasn't a wraith

Oh, I thought she was - similar pokey thing and drinking spine fluid.  I get my monsters mixed up. Good thing I'm not a hunter. ;)

[nightwing877]

Can't say I didn't see Missouri's death coming. But I'm more surprised she died like 10 mins in. Geeze. I think it isn't that she died, but they had 13 years to bring her back, and when they did she comes and goes. Had she made a handful of appearances across the last decade, her death wouldn't suck more. I did like her, but other characters hurt me more when they died.

It is too bad they didn't go the opposite direction, kill James. And had Missouri taking in Patience to teach her about her gifts, before dying in the backdoor pilot. That way Patience would at least have some knowledge of her powers. 

So Mary really didn't cross paths with Missouri when she was following John's journal. I guess Missouri moved and was living elsewhere now. So that does makes sense why they didn't cross paths.

But I don' buy they had no contact with her in a decade, come on. I'm sure she heard John died and contacted the boys with her condolences sometime in early season 2. I just don't believe that they haven't completely had no contact with her since Home at all.

So Missouri was a hunter, okay I can buy it somewhat - but not to the point she was on the road all the time. But from how we meet her in Home she must of retired at that point, since she did tell John about demons and the world, and knew stuff to help Sam and Dean in Home. But I just never thought she was literally out hunting on and off. That feels a little Mary 2.0 to me. 

Edited October 27, 2017 by nightwing877

[Commando Cody]

I thought it was nice to see Missouri again. She seemed to be a lot sharper back in the original episode. I was disappointed that they brought her back just to kill her off. 

However, being the nature of this show and not everyone goes away - permanently - The Wayward show could pull a "Grams" from Charmed and have her appear as a spirit once in a while. Patience was already getting visions of her. 

[Wayward Son]

I am happy to say that I enjoyed that episode a lot more than I expected. 

I liked the case of the week, although I wish Missouri hadn't been the one to steal Tommy's crown as the character who returns after the longest gap only to be unceremoniously killed off. I thought they did a good job of keeping Patience balanced. She was depicted as having capabilities that could be built on, as shown during her initial encounter with the wraith, and yet Berens managed to not reach the point where she could be described as a Mary Sue. Initially the vision had me fooled (I had been expecting the episode to end with Patience orphaned), but when Jody got stabbed I realized it had to be a fake. The only thing that bothered me was the reference to Missouri being a hunter. However, I've decided to live in a bubble and interpret it as she regularly aided hunters on cases rather than took them on all by herself. Let me enjoy my little bubble folks ;)

This may be more suited to the unpopular opinion thread, but I actually think the writers have done a decent job of showing all sides of the Jack / Sam / Dean conflict. First things first, IMO Alexander and Jared have amazing chemistry together. I feel like working with Alexander has risen Jared's acting to a level we haven't seen (outside of some scenes with Jensen anyway) for several seasons now. Alexander is also managing to put in a performance that perfectly balances Jack's vulnerability, confusion, and anger about the things that have happened since he was born. I really hope the show keeps him around for a while because he's proven himself as a great addition to the cast IMO. 

Based on his actions so far Jack doesn't deserve the harsh treatment he has received from Dean. He is new to this world and struggling to find his place in it. Even Jack worries about his future. Does he have the free will his mum promised him, or is he destined to go dark side as Dean strongly believes? The understandable hostility and revulsion displayed by Dean is certainly doing nothing to help Jack's mental health and Sam is right to point out Dean's attitude is seriously messing Jack up and damaging his self esteem. However, I can't bring myself to get mad at Dean as I feel the writing team and Jensen have done a great job of showing us he has legitimate reasons for feeling the way he feels. There is the general worry that comes with dealing with the son of the devil. What happens if Jack goes bad and they aren't able to stop him? Death is dead and Chuck and Amara have gone off to parts unknown eliminating the possibility of divine aid. Do they really want to be involved in helping a being like Jack reach his full potential? Furthermore, there is his more personal feelings of resentment for Jack. This is the being who arguably played a part in the disappearance of his mother and the death of his best friend. That level of resentment doesn't just go away in a matter of days and it would be unrealistic for anyone to expect it to.

In regards to their argument, I've seen Dean receive a ton of backlash for his remark that Sam was using Jack rather than it being a genuine effort. I feel Dean is both wrong and right about this. He is right in the sense that this was definitely Sam's initial motivation. He states several times, including during their last talk about the start of the episode, that they can "use Jack". It's natural for Dean to believe that Sam is just using Jack when Sam consistently presents that as the reason to keep him around. As far as I am concerned, prior to this episode Dean would have been correct. I believe it was his time with Jack this week, in particular listening to him express his fear of being evil, that made Sam begin to relate to Jack on a personal level. It reminded Sam of times when he has felt that way. So I feel that Sam was being honest when he told Dean he believed Jack could be saved. However, Dean wasn't around to see the recent development in Sam's attitude towards Jack, and therefore its understandable he still feels Sam is simply using him for his power to open a portal to Mary. 

Yay, for Castiel being back! Count me as one of those who believe Jack actively "awakened him" in the empty and his ability to hear the super powered Jack in no way reflects badly on his relationship with the human Dean. Dean made an interesting point about the utopia vision. I actually think that it could have been a vision sent by Lucifer, in order to ensure protection for his son, rather than Jack. We know that Lucifer was capable of sensing Jack and reaching out to him. It wouldn't be the first time Lucifer has conjured false visions to suit his purposes. 

Edited October 27, 2017 by Wayward Son

[DittyDotDot]

Hmm...I enjoyed the bits and pieces of this one, but over all left me feeling underwhelmed. It seemed a little disjointed and I think it needed more...heart...soul...something...I don't know. Usually I feel like Berens gets his plotting down right while also grounding it well with the characters, but this one was a little too convoluted for me and didn't hit the emotional parts quite right. It made no sense that Missouri didn't play bait so Dean could kill the wraith long before he found out about Patience in the first place. And, not sure I buy the wraith would know that Missouri would be at her friend's house that night, but I guess he could've just followed her or something. 

However, I'm not one to dislike any episode with Jodi in it and now Cass is back, so... .

13 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Fuck You Show! Fuck You! You did not.just bring Missouri back just to kill her. You Suck!  I was already planning my Jody and Missouri Save the World and School the Boys Spin-Off and this is how you treat me?! ??

I figured she would be toast by mid-season, but I thought we might get at least two episodes of mileage out of her. Such a waste to even get the actress back for it, if you ask me.

13 hours ago, Katy M said:

I think Dean is right in that they should at the very least be wary of Jack.  They don't know how to kill him, so saying he's going to kill him seems pointless.  However, I do think Sam cares.  Yes, he wants Jack to open the portal, but that doesn't mean he can't care about him, too.

As I've said all season, I think in true fashion of the show, both Sam and Dean are right and wrong. I think Dean is right to be wary and proactive and I think Sam is right to give him a chance. I think they both are wrong in that they are making Jack about them, though. I think this one actually balanced the arguments better than the previous episode, though.

13 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Also, Mark Pellegrino was not in the opening credits. I thought 'regulars' were in the credits whether they were in the ep or not?

My understanding is they are usually only listed in the main credits for episodes they're in.

13 hours ago, catrox14 said:

100% retcon. No indications that she ever hunted. So they should at least explain WHY she became a hunter. Weak writing.

Well, I don't know that it was a 100 percent retcon? I mean, they never said she wasn't a hunter. She's a psychic who clearly knew about hunting and hunters, so I don't think it's a stretch to think she actually hunted at times too. I don't think she was nomadic or it was her full-time job like the Winchesters. It seems like she was probably more like Bobby, had a home and a life and hunted on the side. 

12 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Also apparently Jody isn't a sheriff anymore but a full-time hunter?  Did that happen after Asa's funeral?

Wait, what? When did they say Jodi wasn't the sheriff anymore? I mean, it's ridiculous that she can just drop out and go on a hunt whenever Sam calls, but I didn't realize she wasn't the sheriff anymore. However, they need to shore this up for me soon, they can't have her crossing that line into vigilantism too much and keep her in law enforcement too. 

12 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Repeating from above - but did anyone else hear Jody say 'had a daughter, Claire' (not have). That was weird. Did Kim just bobble the word, or did Claire not go home again after the werewolf thing?

She said she sort of had a daughter, which I read more as she wasn't really her kid even though she took her in and cared for her as her own, not that it was past tense, though. But, no, I don't think Claire did go home after the werewolf thing, she called Jodi and told her she was going to keep hunting and it was something she needed to do alone. 

11 hours ago, Wynne88 said:

I liked the actress who is playing Patience, but I didn't buy her as a high school girl.  She looked too mature to me.

Yeah, that was my thought too. It probably didn't help having the comparison of the friend who seemed more age-appropriate standing next to her either.

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, companionenvy said:

There are almost always nice and not-nice ways of saying something. There are plenty of nasty words for a lot of groups of people; that doesn't justify using the word.

Potentially, anyone with superpowers could be considered a freak. Certainly, Sam once met the definition. I'd say even natural psychics like Missouri or Patience would. 

Jack is unique. Calling him a freak is a choice.

The term "freak" is not necessarily "nasty".  It depends on how it was intended (if it's deliberately inflammatory, teasing, or just descriptive), and how it was received.  I know people who describe themselves that way proudly (consider "freaks and geeks").   Of course anyone with superpowers can be considered a freak.  That's kind of the definition, and not necessarily  meant as an insult.  

TBH, I don't remember Dean calling (or more accurately, "describing" Jack as a freak (I missed some dialogue, and I don't doubt that he did call him that, and did mean it more as an insult.)  But the fact is that Sam is the one who reacts badly to the term--it's a major insult *to him.*   Jack wouldn't even understand the implied insult, so it shouldn't bother him unless he picks it up from Sam.  His correct response to being called a freak should be "is that bad?"  

[Wayward Son]

7 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

The term "freak" is not necessarily "nasty".  It depends on how it was intended (if it's deliberately inflammatory, teasing, or just descriptive), and how it was received.  I know people who describe themselves that way proudly (consider "freaks and geeks").   Of course anyone with superpowers can be considered a freak.  That's kind of the definition, and not necessarily  meant as an insult.  

TBH, I don't remember Dean calling (or more accurately, "describing" Jack as a freak (I missed some dialogue, and I don't doubt that he did call him that, and did mean it more as an insult.)  But the fact is that Sam is the one who reacts badly to the term--it's a major insult *to him.*   Jack wouldn't even understand the implied insult, so it shouldn't bother him unless he picks it up from Sam.  His correct response to being called a freak should be "is that bad?"  

When he is arguing with Sam at the end he states "See you think you can use this freak" . I agree that the term freak can be used in different ways. It can be used as a form of endearment between friends teasing each other, it can be used by someone proudly proclaiming themselves as different from the norm or it can be used as an insult. IMO based on Dean's tone and the deep simmering resentment he holds towards Jack it was intended in the worst manner possible. Jensen played it as Dean basically sneering the word out.

Here is a link to a video of the argument posted on Youtube if you're interested

 :)  

Edited October 27, 2017 by Wayward Son

[ahrtee]

8 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

When he is arguing with Sam at the end he states "See you think you can use this freak" . I agree that the term freak can be used in different ways. It can be used as a form of endearment between friends teasing each other, it can be used by someone proudly proclaiming themselves as different from the norm or it can be used as an insult. IMO based on Dean's tone and the deep simmering resentment he holds towards Jack it was intended in the worst manner possible. Jensen played it as Dean basically sneering the word out. 

I said I didn't doubt that Dean said it as an insult.  My point is that Jack should be confused by the term, even (or especially) if he picked up the "sneer" you say Jensen put in it (not questioning you, literally didn't see that part of the scene, though we often don't agree on interpretations :) )  

If Jack looks up the definition of "freak" it wouldn't seem to be an insult.  If he questioned Sam about it, I wonder what he would say?  

Edited October 27, 2017 by ahrtee

[Wayward Son]

Just now, ahrtee said:

I said I didn't doubt that Dean said it as an insult.  My point is that Jack should be confused by the term, even (or especially) if he picked up the "sneer" you say Jensen put in it (not questioning you, literally didn't see that part of the scene).  If Jack looks up the definition it wouldn't seem to be an insult.

I got what you meant and I agree with you. I just wanted to clarify when the word freak was used. I also edited my last post to include a video of the actual since I know these things are open to interpretation :)

[Geordiegirl1967]

12 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

Sam could have diffused much of Jack's angst about Dean's feelings toward him by explaining that.

He did that last week in the alley scene.

 

12 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

And Sam could help to explain his desire to help Jack by discussing his feelings with Dean about his own past

He did that in the ep by referencing his own darkness and Dean saving him.

 

12 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

Instead we get Sam blaming Dean for Jack's state of mind

Well Dean's attitude certainly isn't helping Jack, which quite apart from everything else is tactically naive. As they have no way to kill Jack and he is immensely powerful by FAR the best option they have at the moment is to help him, get him on their side and help him to control his powers. They may fail but the alternative is letting him go it alone or signing him up at the Knights of Hell School of Evil-Doing and Death Dealing. Dean scaring the kid, shouting for all to hear that Sam - whom Jack currently sees as his only friend - is using him (which is unfair as Sam is mainly trying to help him for genuine reasons which Dean knows full well) and telling him he is evil and will hurt people and he isn't valuable / worth trying to save is SOOOOO beyond reckless.

 

12 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm more than a bit tired of it.

Me too!!! Please no more making 1 or both of the brothers act ooc just to create drama for the sake of it. Good drama comes from consistent character development. That nasty, cruel and tactically dense version of Dean isn't one I recognise.

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I said I didn't doubt that Dean said it as an insult.  My point is that Jack should be confused by the term, even (or especially) if he picked up the "sneer" you say Jensen put in it (not questioning you, literally didn't see that part of the scene, though we often don't agree on interpretations :) )  

If Jack looks up the definition of "freak" it wouldn't seem to be an insult.  If he questioned Sam about it, I wonder what he would say?  

Didn't he say he learned English by listening to Kelly?  Inasmuch as she used the word freak, it was probably to hope that Jack wouldn't be one.  Or how Jack would be one.  So, I don't think he would have been looking for nuances in the word. He would have seen it as a negative.

[ahrtee]

15 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Wait, what? When did they say Jodi wasn't the sheriff anymore? I mean, it's ridiculous that she can just drop out and go on a hunt whenever Sam calls, but I didn't realize she wasn't the sheriff anymore. However, they need to shore this up for me soon, they can't have her crossing that line into vigilantism too much and keep her in law enforcement too. 

I was questioning that, not stating it as fact.  It's not just the being able to drop out and go on a hunt at any time, but also that *Sam* would think to call *her* to go on a solo hunt when there are other, more experienced hunters around. 

I'm not sure how being a sheriff (or not) will fit into the Wayward Sisters scenario.  IMO, it sounds like they're all going to be hunters.  If she stays as sheriff, what?  She's supporting vigilantism?  Finding cases for them and then covering for them?  Leading them?  

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Didn't he say he learned English by listening to Kelly?  Inasmuch as she used the word freak, it was probably to hope that Jack wouldn't be one.  Or how Jack would be one.  So, I don't think he would have been looking for nuances in the word. He would have seen it as a negative.

Did she use the term freak?  I honestly don't remember.  But even so, knowing it's considered negative is not the same as being an insult.  (And IMO the same question would still come up:  "but why is being a freak so bad?")  

[Aeryn13]

A somewhat odd episode. As a precursor to the spin-off, the Patience character didn`t really pop for me. I mean, she was perfectly fine as a one-off but that`s about it. 

Missouri was a hunter? Sure. Dabb and lol!canon where everyone is (and be) a hunter. That said, they bring the character back that I hated with a passion in her first appearance and, after making her more bland and nondescript here, kill her off. If only she could have been civil like that during Home.

Though I remember in that episode how she told a "client" a lie, claiming people didn`t want to know the truth. I kinda think maybe something similar happened with her statements about her daughter-in-law. Problem is, people may not want to hear hurtful truths in the moment but if they are banking on a psychic`s more, shall we say, optimistic interpretation being the truth, they will be doubly hurt - and mad - afterwards. I know her son said it was more of an honest mistake but I`m not sure I buy that.

The vision with the Wraith easily killing everyone? Yeah, sure. That looked so cheap. And then the "real time" events moved pretty much the same way. Just because Patience called out to both Jody and Dean didn`t seem to make that much of a difference. And Jody got knocked out anyways. But in the vision the Wraith quickly overpowers Dean and in the actual event he fights it off with not that much difficulty. 

Btw, yay for badass!Dean getting a kill. 

But it was a clunky set-up. If the vision had showed some kind of trap or killed them from behind and Patience yelled out a critical warning that significantly changed a course of events, that would have made more sense.  

Don`t know who the director was but that was IMO a failing of his. Not to mention the weird camera angles in that final scene. I get that they were probably trying to make a point on Sam being wise and right and Dean being low but you can`t make that work by literally looking like a little person operated a hand-held camera in that scene. 

Which brings me to the Jack conundrum. I feel bad for him, I truly do. And I think him eavesdropping in the final scene was just the set-up to have him call out Cas. I mean, that scene gave him the impetus to do so. 

But the brothers should really shut the freaking door. Or talk in another room. Or take some precaution to keep it private.

As for the content of the scene, I`m eh on it right now. I like Dean standing his ground for once but I know how this goes so I no longer enjoy such scenes anymore. I think at the very least it cleared the waters for him and Jack to have a talk when that happens. If Dean comes around on Jack - and that will happen - Jack will know it is gonna be genuine. 

He will also mostly just ask Sam point-blank if he sees him as a means to an end. And if it`s that or Sam projecting his past, what they need is move on from both. 

Jack is neither the Antichrist (either the show-one nor the biblical one) NOR Sam 2.0. 

Quote

I was questioning that, not stating it as fact.  It's not just the being able to drop out and go on a hunt at any time, but also that *Sam* would think to call *her* to go on a solo hunt when there are other, more experienced hunters around. 

That part of Sam assigning the case really annoyed me. I mean, if Jody took it, fine. But telling Dean that they need to remain at the bunker for co-parenting? Dean never signed up for or agreed to this. And he can decide for himself if he wants to go on any specific hunt or not. That split should have been amicable.  

Edited October 27, 2017 by Aeryn13

[DittyDotDot]

18 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I said I didn't doubt that Dean said it as an insult.  My point is that Jack should be confused by the term, even (or especially) if he picked up the "sneer" you say Jensen put in it (not questioning you, literally didn't see that part of the scene, though we often don't agree on interpretations :) )  

If Jack looks up the definition of "freak" it wouldn't seem to be an insult.  If he questioned Sam about it, I wonder what he would say?  

I don't think Jack was responding to being called a freak--that was Sam who was responding to his hot-button word, IMO--but was responding to his two dads fighting.