Season 4 Talk

[cpcathy]

I also had no idea Paul Rudd was Jewish. And his grandfather was a pretty dapper guy!

[Enigma X]

1 hour ago, cpcathy said:

I also had no idea Paul Rudd was Jewish. And his grandfather was a pretty dapper guy!

Paul Rudd makes me act like a schoolgirl. I have not watched yet but am really looking forward to his story.

[iMonrey]

I just hope Paul Rudd grew that handlebar mustache for a TV or movie role instead of it being a personal style choice. Yeesh.

[cpcathy]

I think it's most likely for a movie. He's also quite skinny.

[NowVoyager]

On 10/25/2017 at 1:27 AM, Snarklepuss said:

IMO, Ava DuVerney went way OTT with her glee at finding out she's slightly more black than white, to the point that even Gates asked her "What difference does it make?"  I get it that it's her thing to be focused in on black issues and history so her heritage is important to her, but why should it be that important to her to be more black than white?  I don't love it when people can't get beyond stuff like that, and I have to say that as a white person I kind of felt a little reverse prejudice going on there.  If she had been 57% white and acted that way over being more white than black all hell would come down on her for acting that way.  People would not see it as just someone being "proud" of their white heritage.  When white people are proud of being white they're called racist.  I don't think there should be a double standard about stuff like this.  OK, I've said my piece.

Well, I do appreciate you giving your honest opinion, although it made me a little uncomfortable. It is important for us as people to have these kinds of conversations, if we are ever going to understand one another better & hopefully get along more peacefully. 

Ava DuVernay's racial composite was presented in historical terms--- they were not talking about white people who had married into her family in more recent generations. As an African American person descended from slaves, when you see that % of European ancestry, it resonates in you that your ancestors were raped! Repeatedly! So, a lower number represents less suffering... The reality is, the white slavemasters are just as much a part of our family trees as the slaves, but can you please understand why it's harder for us to feel "proud" of them?

Meanwhile, one of Ava DuVernay's slave ancestors did run away to start a new life with a white man--- the son of the man who owned her, I think.

On 10/25/2017 at 0:09 PM, Blergh said:

I kind of wish Dr. Gates had tried to make the point to Miss DuVerney that her ancestor DID have to flee his home to emigrate to an entirely new land and become a refugee- twice ,so for that reason alone, it would have been nice to have had a little compassion! Not to mention that the ancestral DuVerney ALSO acknowledged his offspring by the biracial companion so  he wasn't entirely without redeeming features.

We can't understand the nature of their relationship. But, it seems like he gave up everything to start a new life with her & yes, this is redeeming! But, wasn't this the same woman who was "stamped" or branded with a hot iron like an animal because the slavemaster was trying to get his property back? I want to think nice things about their relationship... But it's still not the same thing as a white man & a black woman getting married today--- where both people are considered equal under the law. On the otherhand, it was a much greater risk... It's complicated. & I think Ava DuVernay should be allowed time to process her feelings.

[Snarklepuss]

2 hours ago, NowVoyager said:

Well, I do appreciate you giving your honest opinion, although it made me a little uncomfortable. It is important for us as people to have these kinds of conversations, if we are ever going to understand one another better & hopefully get along more peacefully. 

Ava DuVernay's racial composite was presented in historical terms--- they were not talking about white people who had married into her family in more recent generations. As an African American person descended from slaves, when you see that % of European ancestry, it resonates in you that your ancestors were raped! Repeatedly! So, a lower number represents less suffering... The reality is, the white slavemasters are just as much a part of our family trees as the slaves, but can you please understand why it's harder for us to feel "proud" of them?

Meanwhile, one of Ava DuVernay's slave ancestors did run away to start a new life with a white man--- the son of the man who owned her, I think.

Thank you for giving your opinion.  I understand the issue but when I look at my family tree I try to rise above any of the potentially seedy parts of it.  Who knows who some of my ancestors were and if among them there were rapists that lead to me being here or murderers, etc?  My link to the Mayflower is with a man that came to the new world only seeking to escape debtor's prison in England and was later put to death for murdering a man over the theft of a cow (John Billington).  Shall I be any less proud of my ancestry on that side because of him?  My 2nd GGF on my father's French side ran medical supplies to the confederate army during the Civil War, over which my Yankee/abolishionist 2nd GGM divorced him.  It is what it is.  It is not because the man was French that he did this.  It is because he was human.  So I am proud of my French heritage no matter what my 2nd GGF did.

Slavery itself is by no means limited to the US or any racial or ethnic group.  And rape, well, we might as well hate a significant portion of the male sex throughout history if we're going to get particular about it.  I think most if not all of us on this earth are probably descended from slave owners and rapists somewhere along the line even if it was thousands of years ago in a very distant place.  We have to get over it sometime, that's all I say, and it didn't feel to me as if Ava was seeing it from that perspective.  I understand that this is her family history and she's seeing it in the context of the suffering they lived though, but I think it's possible to do that without coming off as if we have a "yay" or "boo" attitude toward their racial composition because of it.  I guess I took it personally, like she's happy she isn't more white because she just doesn't like being identified as white.  Well, huh, like she's making being white "uncool".  I don't like it when it seems to me that someone is preferring to be anything over anything else.  To me, that is racism.

Even if some of my ancestors owned slaves I would try to see it in the context of history and attempt to forgive and understand them in their time and place.  I think it requires being a special kind of person to be able to do this, and I don't expect everyone to be like me, but it's something I think we need to see more of in society if we are ever to get past the past and concentrate on the more universal things that make us human.  I have spent a lifetime trying to understand how people from other times, places, cultures and even MEN in those times and places could think so differently than we think here in this country today, and I long ago concluded that it makes no sense to expect them to be on our contemporary level about anything.  Even men before a couple of decades ago in the US were quite different about women but to dwell on that would serve me no purpose.  To keep beating that drum is IMO to beat a dead horse.  Things are much different now.

And BTW, I don't agree with the "less suffering" argument - I don't believe that anyone alive today can accurately know the level of suffering that any slaves felt whether or not they were raped.  There were probably many other equally as horrible ways to suffer as a slave.  OK, again, I've said my piece.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Snarklepuss

[Snarklepuss]

18 hours ago, Lovecat said:

I figured it was because this bunch was Pretty Damn European, and there probably weren't any genetic surprises hiding further back on the family trees.  They probably took DNA, but the results weren't too exciting, so they nixed them for broadcast.

Well, speaking as someone who's half Sicilian and has had DNA tests done, I don't think it's possible for John Turturro not to have a very interesting DNA profile.  My Sicilian side has DNA from almost all racial groups except for American Indian and other New World natives.  I have East Indian, Sub-Saharan African, Middle Eastern, North African, and even East Asian represented in my DNA in small percentages.  I wasn't that surprised to find this out since my mother always told me this could be the case because Sicily was conquered and visited by many people over the generations plus it's not that far from the African continent.

ETA:  BTW, I LOVED this episode because it touched on my own heritage in many ways, including my Jewish side as I had relatives that settled in England from Warsaw during the late 19th century, but they got out before any anti-semitism took hold and came to the U.S. in 1909.  So often on these shows it is brought home to me how smart and fortunate my Jewish ancestors were to leave Warsaw and then England when they did!

Also, I knew and have liked all of these people, having first discovered John Turturro in "The Big Lebowski", one of my all time favorite movies!  I too had no idea Paul Rudd was Jewish and always found him attractive!

Edited November 2, 2017 by Snarklepuss

[Snarklepuss]

I also wanted to say I identified with John Turturro's experience feeling different from everyone and feeling that people fear what they don't know.  Story of my life.  I have felt like a victim of ethnic prejudice all my life.  All you have to do is tell some people you're part Jewish or Sicilian and that's all you need to say.  Being short and shapely with dark hair and ambiguous ethnicity always made people unable to categorize me in my youth in NYC.  I know the culture that John grew up in and it could be very prejudiced.  Even other Italian Americans have been known to hate Sicilians.  I grew up never being able to tell anyone I was of Sicilian descent, even other Italians.  Just a few years ago at a family wedding my husband's cousin, who is half Italian, made nasty comments about my heritage upon finding out that my Italian side was Sicilian!  I couldn't believe it!  Plus his sister's husband's family asked me if I was part black when they heard I was part Sicilian.  And I knew what they were trying to say because there are prejudiced people out there that put Sicilians down for that too (never mind the mafia comments).  It wouldn't even matter to them if I told them it's only half a percent.

[kassa]

Reconciling the fact that one of your ancestors owned/sold/traded/abused others of your ancestors is something I can't fathom having to wrestle with. 

On a much more minor level I've struggled with learning that an ancestor was a gamekeeper for an estate in Ireland at a time when poaching was a hanging offense.  First reaction - whoah -- a position of some responsibility!  That's probably how they survived the famine(s)!  Then the dawning realization that it would have been his job to keep starving people from poaching, and all that might entail.

[Vera]

JEWISH FAMILY DISCOVERS FAMILY TIES TO SCARLETT JOHANSSON VIA PBS SHOW

[Willowsmom]

Best episode yet.

[ShelleySue]

I thought that it was strange that the only DNA shown was to confirm Bryant Gumbel's Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry.  And even the only showed "European" ancestry.  There was no sub-Saharan on it.  I wonder if it was because the percentage of African ancestry was lower than the guests anticipated.

[Enigma X]

16 minutes ago, ShelleySue said:

I thought that it was strange that the only DNA shown was to confirm Bryant Gumbel's Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry.  And even the only showed "European" ancestry.  There was no sub-Saharan on it.  I wonder if it was because the percentage of African ancestry was lower than the guests anticipated.

I did not find it strange, but they were just trying to show the heritage related to what they were talking about. If you do the math, he is about 66% African.

[Snarklepuss]

9 hours ago, Enigma X said:

I did not find it strange, but they were just trying to show the heritage related to what they were talking about. If you do the math, he is about 66% African.

According to my calculations and this page Bryant Gumbel is 65% European and only around 35% Sub-Saharan African, so it's the other way around.

I found it a little bit strange given that in previous seasons a person's entire DNA profile was shown, not just one part of it.

I'm sure Suzanne Malveaux's DNA would have shown a similar breakdown if not even less Sub-Saharan African.  According to IMDB she is African, Spanish, and French descent. Her father is of Louisiana French Creole descent.
 

9 hours ago, ShelleySue said:

I thought that it was strange that the only DNA shown was to confirm Bryant Gumbel's Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry.  And even the only showed "European" ancestry.  There was no sub-Saharan on it.  I wonder if it was because the percentage of African ancestry was lower than the guests anticipated.

I'm wondering that myself or whether Gates has changed his policy to not including the DNA results on his show unless it brings out some specific ancestry being discussed in the show, like the Ashkenazi roots of Gumbel.  It's too bad, because I always found that part fascinating, and what made this show different from other genealogy shows.  I wonder why the change.

[Enigma X]

14 minutes ago, Snarklepuss said:

According to my calculations and this page Bryant Gumbel is 65% European and only around 35% Sub-Saharan African, so it's the other way around.

I found it a little bit strange given that in previous seasons a person's entire DNA profile was shown, not just one part of it.

 

My bad. I thought what DNA they did show on FYR said European 35%. I must have mixed it up.

[2727]

Gates: "Your relative who fought for the Confederacy, then the Union, was a hero."

Gumbel: "Dunno about that. He was pragmatic."

Ha!

My biggest takeaway is that I haven't seen Gumbel for a long while and probably wouldn't have recognized him on the street. It's not that he's older, but he seems very thin and the shape of his face has changed.

[Snarklepuss]

4 minutes ago, 2727 said:

My biggest takeaway is that I haven't seen Gumbel for a long while and probably wouldn't have recognized him on the street. It's not that he's older, but he seems very thin and the shape of his face has changed.

I thought that too.  He even speaks differently now!

[ikmccall]

5 hours ago, 2727 said:

Gates: "Your relative who fought for the Confederacy, then the Union, was a hero."

Gumbel: "Dunno about that. He was pragmatic."

Ha!

My biggest takeaway is that I haven't seen Gumbel for a long while and probably wouldn't have recognized him on the street. It's not that he's older, but he seems very thin and the shape of his face has changed.

He had a malignant tumor and part of a lung removed 2008 or 2009. I can't decide of he looks older or if he looks ill.

[Jadzia]

I'm not disappointed they aren't focusing on the ethnicity percentages, because really, those are just estimates and sort of a crapshoot depending on which algorithm the testing company uses. The ethnicity part of DNA is an inexact science. What I would instead want to see on this show is where genetic genealogy really shines: researching your genetic DNA matches and determining the common ancestor.

The DNA part of this episode would have been much more interesting had they shown that Gumbel matched the white descendants of Cornelius Gumbel (he did have another white family, after all) or matched some of the Gumbel cousins in Germany. A lot of traditional genealogy research can sometimes rely on hunches and a preponderance of evidence, so DNA is really useful at verifying these connections and making sure you have found the paper trail for the "right" ancestor. They could have used DNA matches to prove that Jack and Cornelius Gumbel was the same person.

[Snarklepuss]

9 minutes ago, Jadzia said:

I'm not disappointed they aren't focusing on the ethnicity percentages, because really, those are just estimates and sort of a crapshoot depending on which algorithm the testing company uses. The ethnicity part of DNA is an inexact science.

I might have agreed with you a decade or more ago but as time goes on the ethnicity estimates have gotten more accurate as the algorithms have improved.   So it is getting to be a more exact science and less of a crap shoot.  I have tested my DNA with 3 different companies and while their results varied a bit when I started out several years ago, after almost a decade they are all starting to say exactly the same thing (I have a lot of different ethnicities in me).  Same is true for my husband and my father, whose DNA results I also track on 3 different sites.  The only place where I still see any slight variation between the sites is in the ethnicities represented in trace amounts, like 5% or less.

[Jadzia]

43 minutes ago, Snarklepuss said:

I might have agreed with you a decade or more ago but as time goes on the ethnicity estimates have gotten more accurate as the algorithms have improved.   So it is getting to be a more exact science and less of a crap shoot.  I have tested my DNA with 3 different companies and while their results varied a bit when I started out several years ago, after almost a decade they are all starting to say exactly the same thing (I have a lot of different ethnicities in me).  Same is true for my husband and my father, whose DNA results I also track on 3 different sites.  The only place where I still see any slight variation between the sites is in the ethnicities represented in trace amounts, like 5% or less.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there is no value to it. I have also tested with multiple companies (Ancestry and 23 & Me) as well as uploaded my raw DNA to a few others (FamilyTreeDNA and MyHeritage) and the overall picture of my ethnicity is the same - 100% European. But the percentages of different countries within Europe look much different depending on how each company lumps them. 

I just see a lot of people looking at the ethnicity part of DNA as the be-all and end-all and there is so much more to it than that. I am in a lot of DNA groups on Facebook and I always see people posting how they are concerned that their percentage of German doesn't match some other test they took. And because DNA is not passed down equally through all of your great-grandparents, they wonder why they aren't a higher a higher percentage Italian or why their sister has a higher percentage etc. It seems like a lot people test for the ethnicity and just look at that part but don't really work their DNA matches. I have been able to solve so many family mysteries that way.

[attica]

9 hours ago, 2727 said:

he seems very thin and the shape of his face has changed.

Since he's been on HBO, he undertook a big weight loss program (before the illness). Since I regularly watch his show, he looks like he's looked for more than a decade (okay, less hair.).

I just finished reading Ta-Nahisi Coates's book, in which he writes briefly about finding out that his dad had an FBI file because of the work FYR people did. He knew his dad was a Panther, but did not know about the Feds keeping track of him. I don't think he was necessarily surprised, as that was the kind of thing the FBI did, but it's still a thing to actually see it.  Funny: His dad was a Black Panther; TNC wrote a series for the Black Panther Marvel comics.  What goes around!

[Enigma X]

I have tested with 5 companies and have had 10 siblings tested at most of the 5. I believe the ethnicity percentages are more accurate but still not there. With that said, I think what we inherit from our parents is a crapshoot. Within my own family, full siblings have varied up to 8% within the European and African categories across all the tests. For example, one sister is 85% African, another 79% African, and a brother is 74% African. Even if they were 100% accurate, there would be this variance. So, I personally care more about the matches and use the ethnicity percentages as a loose guide because it really depends on the marbles you got from the random bag.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Enigma X

[carrps]

Really liked this last episode.

Not much to say, but I was really surprised at how many people didn't know Paul Rudd was Jewish.

[Traiasio]

On 11/2/2017 at 8:29 AM, Snarklepuss said:

Well, speaking as someone who's half Sicilian and has had DNA tests done, I don't think it's possible for John Turturro not to have a very interesting DNA profile.  My Sicilian side has DNA from almost all racial groups except for American Indian and other New World natives.  I have East Indian, Sub-Saharan African, Middle Eastern, North African, and even East Asian represented in my DNA in small percentages.

 

On 11/2/2017 at 9:28 AM, Snarklepuss said:

I know the culture that John grew up in and it could be very prejudiced.  Even other Italian Americans have been known to hate Sicilians.  I grew up never being able to tell anyone I was of Sicilian descent, even other Italians.  Just a few years ago at a family wedding my husband's cousin, who is half Italian, made nasty comments about my heritage upon finding out that my Italian side was Sicilian!  I couldn't believe it!  Plus his sister's husband's family asked me if I was part black when they heard I was part Sicilian.

The prejudice against Sicilians as being "part black" comes from a stupid old myth about Moorish invaders from Africa raping all of the native women on the island which was repeated in this scene from the movie True Romance. But in reality Sicilians are no different than other Italians, in either their looks or their DNA profile, because the Moors were not really black and they didn't stay for very long.

Regarding your results, the North African and Sub-Saharan African (usually less than 4% and 1% respectively) are what the short Moorish occupation actually left behind in Sicily. The Middle Eastern is usually higher but represents an excess of ancient ancestry that all Europeans have (early farmers were from the Middle East, and more settled in southern Europe than in northern Europe). The East Asian and East Indian are weird. Never seen that before in any studies on Italians. If the percentages are significant, maybe it's some Gypsy heritage in your family? But if they're really low it could just be noise.

Links:

http://italianthro.altervista.org/sicilians.html

http://italianthro.altervista.org/italians.html

[riverblue22]

My daughters are half Sicilian and took the DNA tests (my husband refuses to be tested).  One came up with 8% Middle East and the other showed 15% Caucasus.  They found the results fascinating, and far more interesting than my Great Britain, Scotland, Ireland, Scandinavia boring self.

[missprint]

I love this show. I found this last episode to be very moving and found myself choking up at more than a few moments. It just goes to show you that the black experience in the U.S. is not monolithic. 

As an aside, I am Sicilian American. I did the DNA tests as well, and used my 23andme.com results to synthesize the raw data onto GEDmatch which I gather is supposed to be more in-depth. Sicilian people truly are a melting pot! My dad's haplogroup stems straight from the Middle East, while it turns out I have Ashkenazi heritage as well from way back through my mom. We knew about this, and the DNA confirms it. What I found interesting as well is that my father--who we never knew had Jewish heritage--took the 23andme test and it also shows that he had a Jewish ancestor a few generations back.

GEDmatch says I am roughly: 40% Mediterranean, 17% Middle Eastern, 11% West Asian, 10% Atlantic European, 8% North-Central European and trace amounts of Eastern European, Baltic, East African, etc. 

Edited November 12, 2017 by missprint

[Snarklepuss]

Wow, thanks to all of you with Sicilian heritage for posting about your admixtures!  They fascinate me no end.

From 23 and Me my Sicilian side turned up this:

Italian 38.0%
Balkan 0.8%
Sardinian 0.7%
Iberian 0.3%
Broadly Southern European 7.1%

Sub-Saharan African 0.6%

But I also have this below, which I think is probably from my father's side's Yankee relatives.  His Ancestry.com and 23 and Me DNA tests don't show any native American but his Family Tree DNA does show about 1%.

East Asian & Native American < 0.1%

Curiously, on Ancestry.com, that East Asian is absent and I'm flagged for < 0.1% South Asian instead, which comes up as India.  Somehow I think 23 and Me is more accurate on that, so I don't think there are Gypsies involved (as much as my grandmother would have LOVED that as she came from that generation that romanced the idea of a Bohemian lifestyle).

So anyway, here's a case in point where companies can disagree on a trace ethnicity.

Also, how the sites classify stuff differs.  On Ancestry.com I'm flagged for Italy and Greece, like there's no distinction made between the two there.  I don't doubt that I should have Greek ancestry from way back as Syracusa in Sicily (near where my family comes from) was famously inhabited by the ancient Greeks.

Plus, my Ashkenazi is listed as 21% on 23 and me and 27% on Ancestry.com!

[Queena]

On 11/2/2017 at 2:42 AM, NowVoyager said:

Well, I do appreciate you giving your honest opinion, although it made me a little uncomfortable. It is important for us as people to have these kinds of conversations, if we are ever going to understand one another better & hopefully get along more peacefully. 

Ava DuVernay's racial composite was presented in historical terms--- they were not talking about white people who had married into her family in more recent generations. As an African American person descended from slaves, when you see that % of European ancestry, it resonates in you that your ancestors were raped! Repeatedly! So, a lower number represents less suffering... The reality is, the white slavemasters are just as much a part of our family trees as the slaves, but can you please understand why it's harder for us to feel "proud" of them?

Meanwhile, one of Ava DuVernay's slave ancestors did run away to start a new life with a white man--- the son of the man who owned her, I think.

We can't understand the nature of their relationship. But, it seems like he gave up everything to start a new life with her & yes, this is redeeming! But, wasn't this the same woman who was "stamped" or branded with a hot iron like an animal because the slavemaster was trying to get his property back? I want to think nice things about their relationship... But it's still not the same thing as a white man & a black woman getting married today--- where both people are considered equal under the law. On the otherhand, it was a much greater risk... It's complicated. & I think Ava DuVernay should be allowed time to process her feelings.

This! I don't know why this is important to us, but I am slightly afraid of doing 23 and Me because I am sure that I have a percentage of Europian blood. I guess that the closest comparison would be finding out that you have African DNA. Some people lose their minds over that. As for me? I'm prepared for whatever the outcome may be. 

 

People actually brag about being 80% and above African. 

 

Turo's family history was fascinating. 

 

I thought Gumble looked good...I didn't know that he had been sick. 

Edited November 13, 2017 by Queena

[Lovecat]

On 11/9/2017 at 1:25 AM, Snarklepuss said:

I thought that too.  He even speaks differently now!

I thought he had a somewhat Obama-esque cadence to his speech.  

[TresGatos]

I thought Gates was a little quick on the trigger in ascribing Ana Navarro's ancestor's falling out with his father to racism. That seemed quite a stretch.

Edited November 16, 2017 by TresGatos
Because Ana Navarro and Lupita Nyong'o's are not the same people!

[ShelleySue]

3 hours ago, TresGatos said:

I thought Gates was a little quick on the trigger in ascribing Lupita Nyong'o's ancestor's falling out with his father to racism. That seemed quite a stretch.

I didn't think it was a stretch knowing the racial atmosphere at the time, but it was pure speculation.  There are a thousand and one reasons a father and son could have been estranged and that was one possible explanation.

[iMonrey]

Quote

I thought Gates was a little quick on the trigger in ascribing Lupita Nyong'o's ancestor's falling out with his father to racism.

Wait - wasn't that Ana Navarro's ancestor? The son used his mother's name (Navarro) rather than his father's because his father was mulatto. Or so they believed, anyway - there was a letter from the father that said his son had disowned him so he was disinheriting him, but there was no mention of race or reason in the letter.

Edited November 15, 2017 by iMonrey

[TresGatos]

17 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Wait - wasn't that Ana Navarro's ancestor? The son used his mother's name (Navarro) rather than his father's because his father was mulatto. Or so they believed, anyway - there was a letter from the father that said his son had disowned him so he was disinheriting him, but there was no mention of race or reason in the letter.

Yes! I was coming back to correct my brain slip! When Henry Gates brought it us and asked why she thought the estrangement occurred and she guessed what I think most of us would think, personal reasons like maybe he didn't like the way he treated his mother or maybe the father would disapprove of who he wanted to marry but then Henry Gates shows her that the father had been born a slave and his race listed as "mulatto" and from there it was all about the 18-year-old sailing away was all about distancing himself from his Black roots even though Henry Gates said there wasn't a shred of proof, and the other three children apparently had no problem with it, but from there on out both he and Ana were all over the "racist" son. It was weird!

[CouchTater]

4 hours ago, TresGatos said:

Yes! I was coming back to correct my brain slip! When Henry Gates brought it us and asked why she thought the estrangement occurred and she guessed what I think most of us would think, personal reasons like maybe he didn't like the way he treated his mother or maybe the father would disapprove of who he wanted to marry but then Henry Gates shows her that the father had been born a slave and his race listed as "mulatto" and from there it was all about the 18-year-old sailing away was all about distancing himself from his Black roots even though Henry Gates said there wasn't a shred of proof, and the other three children apparently had no problem with it, but from there on out both he and Ana were all over the "racist" son. It was weird!

I agree, and had planned to post about it but you beat me to it.  While it may have been very possible that the son wanted to distance himself from his mulatto roots (and understandable in that climate), Gates stated this information as absolute fact, not speculation  Also, Navarro's outrage at this possibility was misplaced, in my opinion.  I would view such action as an ugly necessity to live safely in an ugly world. 

[Snarklepuss]

11 hours ago, CouchTater said:

I agree, and had planned to post about it but you beat me to it.  While it may have been very possible that the son wanted to distance himself from his mulatto roots (and understandable in that climate), Gates stated this information as absolute fact, not speculation  Also, Navarro's outrage at this possibility was misplaced, in my opinion.  I would view such action as an ugly necessity to live safely in an ugly world. 

Yeah, I didn't buy racism as the reason either, glad to see I wasn't alone in that.

Also, when he had the conversation with Lupita about white standards of beauty possibly standing in her way I couldn't imagine that too many people (here in the US anyway) could ever look at her face and not see a beautiful woman.  When she described the commercial for the cream advertising to lighten skin as a way to get a job, that was there, certainly not in the U.S.

I also thought Navarro's outrage at her ancestor having two families (and the women likely knowing about it) probably didn't take into account the cultural differences.  In a place where many couples didn't even have formal legal marriages, and at a time when most men were big chauvanist pigs and women accepted that, it might have been a common thing.  Not that this makes it OK, just something a little less outrageous in its place and time, especially if the women were OK with it.

[Traiasio]

On 11/12/2017 at 4:38 PM, riverblue22 said:

My daughters are half Sicilian and took the DNA tests (my husband refuses to be tested).  One came up with 8% Middle East and the other showed 15% Caucasus.  They found the results fascinating, and far more interesting than my Great Britain, Scotland, Ireland, Scandinavia boring self.

It's not your self that's boring, it's the tests. Northern Europe also has Middle East and Caucasus, as well as other interesting things like North Eurasian - lots of it too, and southern Europe has way more than 8% and 15% - but home DNA testing is too basic and imprecise to get all that. To learn about that stuff you have to read published work by scientists using cutting-edge methods and analyzing ancient DNA. I recommend starting with this study that reviews the most recent findings.

 

On 11/13/2017 at 4:44 PM, Snarklepuss said:

Balkan 0.8%
Sardinian 0.7%
Iberian 0.3%
Sub-Saharan African 0.6%
East Asian & Native American < 0.1%
< 0.1% South Asian

I'm pretty sure none of those amounts are high enough to represent anything real, especially the Asian/Native American ones.

[Snarklepuss]

59 minutes ago, Traiasio said:

I'm pretty sure none of those amounts are high enough to represent anything real, especially the Asian/Native American ones.

Could be - None of those trace amount breakdowns appear on my Ancestry.com DNA profile.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Snarklepuss

[riverblue22]

2 hours ago, Traiasio said:

It's not your self that's boring, it's the tests. Northern Europe also has Middle East and Caucasus, as well as other interesting things like North Eurasian - lots of it too, and southern Europe has way more than 8% and 15% - but home DNA testing is too basic and imprecise to get all that. To learn about that stuff you have to read published work by scientists using cutting-edge methods and analyzing ancient DNA. I recommend starting with this study that reviews the most recent findings.

Thanks for the article about migration patterns.  I find migration fascinating since all of my ancestors migrated like crazy across Canada and the United States.

Here are my results from Ancestry.  I find them confusing when my mother was 100% German.  My German ancestors must have migrated from somewhere as well.

Great Britain   39%

 Ireland/Scotland/Wales   27% 

 Scandinavia 21%

 Low Confidence Regions

 Europe South 5%

 Europe West 4%

 Middle East < 1%

 Caucasus < 1%

[Enigma X]

A caveat about low percentages that I feel a need to remind people of any time they immediately discount them. Eventually 100% can become 0.08% or 0% if that particularly DNA does not enter your DNA again. Instead of discounting or believing low percentages automatically, learn a bit about geography, migration, history, and your personal family.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Enigma X

[attica]

I keep seeing the designation of "other" on the pie charts. I keep hoping that's Neanderthal DNA, which is still in circulation, but it never gets talked about by these shows. Disappointing, given the expertise applied here. 

On the other hand, it's kind of exciting that Lupita has Eve-stuff.

[cakes1975]

Hate to break it to you Couchtater and Snarklepuss, but skin lightening creams still exist and are used in America. Head to the 'ethnic' aisle in your local drug store and look for a skin cream call AMBI. It is a skin lightening cream. Most black women in the US use this cream to lighten dark areas on knees and elbows, but for years it was used to lighten facial skin so that the European Majority would hire some of us, especially in jobs where we would be seen by the General (white) public. In the 1970's as we were shouting "Black Power!"  I could go for an interview for an office job, and there was always something in the interview room that was a lighter shade of brown than my skin. If I contrasted too much with that shade, I would not be getting a second interview. I have not been everywhere in the world, but I have seen 'colorism" everywhere I have traveled.

 Just wiki "Brown Paper Bag Test"or "Colorism" if you think this is something from some bygone era.

[Snarklepuss]

4 hours ago, cakes1975 said:

Hate to break it to you Couchtater and Snarklepuss, but skin lightening creams still exist and are used in America. Head to the 'ethnic' aisle in your local drug store and look for a skin cream call AMBI. It is a skin lightening cream. Most black women in the US use this cream to lighten dark areas on knees and elbows, but for years it was used to lighten facial skin so that the European Majority would hire some of us, especially in jobs where we would be seen by the General (white) public. In the 1970's as we were shouting "Black Power!"  I could go for an interview for an office job, and there was always something in the interview room that was a lighter shade of brown than my skin. If I contrasted too much with that shade, I would not be getting a second interview. I have not been everywhere in the world, but I have seen 'colorism" everywhere I have traveled.

 Just wiki "Brown Paper Bag Test"or "Colorism" if you think this is something from some bygone era.

I grew up in the Bronx and lived there until I was 33.  My father still lives there.  I know all about skin lightening creams and the relative acceptance or non-acceptance based on lightness or darkness of skin shade.  My point was that you'll never see a commercial or advertisement in the U.S. telling you that you're more likely to get a job based on using their product.  At least I've never seen it even when I did see advertisements for such things in the Subway and in papers or magazines.

P.S.  When I went on interviews there was always someone taller/blonder/more WASPy looking than myself which was my own version of "colorism" as I am short, shapely and more "ethnic" looking with dark curly hair.  Yes, that kind of prejudice does exist even in the white world.  The only plus I had was that my last name didn't end in an "o".  My own mother had to change her last name when she was young because it greatly increased her chances of getting a job not to have a name that ended in a vowel.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Snarklepuss

[Georgina]

You can upload your raw DNA files to the FREE Site gedmatch. They have many tools to analyze your heritage.

[CouchTater]

On ‎11‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 10:43 PM, cakes1975 said:

Hate to break it to you Couchtater and Snarklepuss, but skin lightening creams still exist and are used in America. Head to the 'ethnic' aisle in your local drug store and look for a skin cream call AMBI. It is a skin lightening cream. Most black women in the US use this cream to lighten dark areas on knees and elbows, but for years it was used to lighten facial skin so that the European Majority would hire some of us, especially in jobs where we would be seen by the General (white) public. In the 1970's as we were shouting "Black Power!"  I could go for an interview for an office job, and there was always something in the interview room that was a lighter shade of brown than my skin. If I contrasted too much with that shade, I would not be getting a second interview. I have not been everywhere in the world, but I have seen 'colorism" everywhere I have traveled.

 Just wiki "Brown Paper Bag Test"or "Colorism" if you think this is something from some bygone era.

Oh, yeah.  That wasn't me who was doubting the skin lightening creams.  I'm African-American, and know very well how skin tone is still an issue, even in 2017.

 

On ‎11‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 0:52 AM, Snarklepuss said:

Yeah, I didn't buy racism as the reason either, glad to see I wasn't alone in that.

Also, when he had the conversation with Lupita about white standards of beauty possibly standing in her way I couldn't imagine that too many people (here in the US anyway) could ever look at her face and not see a beautiful woman.  When she described the commercial for the cream advertising to lighten skin as a way to get a job, that was there, certainly not in the U.S.

Snarklepuss, it's sad to say, but I think you're wrong.  I think that for some, her skin color alone is enough to deem her unattractive. 

Edited November 20, 2017 by CouchTater

[shapeshifter]

I finally caught the "Immigrant Nation" episode. It would have been interesting to learn how Scarlett Johanssen's Swedish ancestors went from having a royal coat of arms to being farm laborers in Denmark without property. It could have been something as simple as illegitimacy or something more Shakespearean, like one brother banishing another.

I also would have liked to learn the fate of Turturro's uncle who was left in an orphanage because the staff didn't think his grandfather's mixed race marriage was good enough.

[Snarklepuss]

10 hours ago, CouchTater said:

Snarklepuss, it's sad to say, but I think you're wrong.  I think that for some, her skin color alone is enough to deem her unattractive. 

I'm sure you're right.  I probably should have said, "I doubt too many people wouldn't find her attractive unless they had their heads up their asses".   That was my personal opinion based on if she were considered purely on esthetics alone.  Certain ranges of bone structure and facial proportion and symmetry, etc. tend to be universally favored among most humans and it cuts through all races and cultures judging from many studies on the subject.  It also transcends any "white standard of beauty".  The power of prejudice among some people to deny what many think is innately hardwired into our brains to find attractive is another unfortunate issue.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Snarklepuss

[shapeshifter]

My skeptic's radar went off when they said they used nothing but the DNA in a database to find Tea Leoni's birth parents. IDK. Could she share 11.3% DNA with a bunch of other people of the right age and geography too if the DNA database had been more completely populated? And what were the odds that both her parents' DNA were in that database? 

[iMonrey]

I didn't understand the math they used for locating Leoni's maternal grandmother either, shapeshifter. The other thing that puzzled me is that they were able to determine which of two sisters was the birth mother by comparing the DNA from one of their daughters. So, they found one of Abilene's (legitimate) daughters and she agreed to a DNA test. That's the test that proved Abiline was the mother of Leoni's mother. So . . . did they go back and interview this other daughter, or any of the other children Abilene had? Maybe one of them knew something about the circumstances of the adoption. It seems strange they gathered all this info through DNA testing after they had obviously made contact with a blood relative.

Still, I found this episode interesting in that solving some biological mysteries is different than what they normally do. Gaby Hoffmann has had one interesting life, and it's kind of neat that this mystery about her grandfather's paternity has been solved after all this time. Science!

E.T.A. Gaby needs to do something about her hair. The way she had to keep flipping it back off her face was driving me crazy. Get a barrette or something, lady.

Edited November 22, 2017 by iMonrey

[AuntiePam]

20 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

E.T.A. Gaby needs to do something about her hair. The way she had to keep flipping it back off her face was driving me crazy. Get a barrette or something, lady.

Lordy, yes.  I'd love to have thick hair like hers though.

I had a different impression of Abilene, from looking at her photo.  I thought she looked worldly and calculating, it was in her eyes.  

Interesting that Tea's lineage goes back to Henry II.  Does Tea know anything about him?  I expected a "Whoa!  The Lion in Winter?  That was my 27-times great grandpa!  Cool!"