S07.E05: Holes

[Guest]

Quote

Beverly's journalistic integrity is called into question. Kai plans to broadcast a gruesome murder committed by the cult. Ally's phobias reach a new low.

[Chaos Theory]

Well damn.

That answers two questions at least.  The is Ivy in the cult and how is Ally's Shrink connected.

Ivy is pissed off at the world and wants to burn it down and especially Ally for voting for Jill Stein but still has some humanity left in her.  

Nice back story for Kai. 

loved Ally and her Rear Window Moment.

It is starting to look like a battle between Kai and Hope for power or maybe they really do respect each other.  

[Valny]

I was mainly watching the Yankee game so I was flipping in between commercials, but dear lord... the part with the "gimp" hanging by his skin on the hooks was hard to watch. and then Kia stabs the poor guy. Geez! I don't remember names, but Dermott Mulroney.... was he licking the guys blood off his fingers?

I didn't see it, but did Ivy shoot that guy with the nail gun?

I only saw a little of Ally...  was she not in this episode much?

[Prairie]

That was nuts! I had to cover my eyes for the brain nailing but this was another great episode. It was fun to see the collection of cult members working together, and I loved Kai's back story. Keeping & visiting his dead, rotting parents is perfectly twisted for this guy. & I knew Vincent? must've been related to Kai & Winter. When he was explaining to Kai why they should do what they did with their parents I was like "yeah...those are all great points, lol

[ShadowHunter]

I cant believe I did not guess Kai and Dr. Vincent are brothers. I just figured he was a part of the cult. Guess we know who gave Kai the meds. He was almost normal in the flashback.

Beverly is really power hungry damn. Strange and interesting she got Kai to open up.  I like the dynamic between them.   Even when he told her "You are the only one who impressed me"

Ally is so boring. Thankfully she was on a small amount.

I knew the guy was in trouble when he seemed to be stepping out of line but a nail gun. Its horror so Pinhead lol.

Kai licked the blood. Glad we got answers again this week.

Need to see more now of Kai and Vincent.

Edited October 4, 2017 by ShadowHunter

[Anela]

Meadow really fearing for her life, and begging Ally for help. I wonder who has her. 

Who was the kid they shot with the nail gun? That was horrible. 

And who/what was that hanging from the ceiling? Was that a fetish the news anchor had? WTF?

[mamadrama]

So we called it on Ivy being involved but what, exactly, is endgame with Ally? Why are they harassing her without killing her? What do they want out of her? 

[ShadowHunter]

37 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

So we called it on Ivy being involved but what, exactly, is endgame with Ally? Why are they harassing her without killing her? What do they want out of her? 

Maybe in a weird sick way she reminds Kai of his mom.  Just a guess.

[Hazel55]

2 hours ago, ShadowHunter said:

I cant believe I did not guess Kai and Dr. Vincent are brothers. I just figured he was a part of the cult.

Oh yeah! I guessed from the first episode that both Ivy and the shrink were in on the cult, but I never once supposed that Dr. VIncent and Kai were in any way related. Excellent twist. Probably one of the best plot twist they've ever featured on this show; even better than a few heavily publicized plot twists featured back in the first two seasons (Tate is rubber suit, Threadson is Bloody Face, etc.), when the show was still in top form. 

2 hours ago, ShadowHunter said:

Ally is so boring. Thankfully she was on a small amount.

At this point I would almost rather have any female on the show rather than Ally as the heroine-- Meadow, Winter, Beverly, Ivy. All are morally suspect and compromised. However, all are far more capable, competent, interesting, and far more compelling characters for me than Ally to my eyes at this point. And all are played by subtler, more nuanced actresses.

Yes, I know that Sarah Paulson has put in great, even award winning performances elsewhere, and thus must be a fine actress. But this particular performance is not really impressing me. Furthermore, though I'd dub her, at her best (like in American Crime Story and ASL: Asylum), as a strong actress, I've never found her to be a particularly subtle or nuanced one. Her "act" (demeanor, speech, and mannerisms) don't really vary from role to role. (Save for when she put on the terrible fake British accent last year.) Alison Pill, in contrast, whom I've seen in several other things, really adds layers to each character, and seems to possess depth and versatility to each role. 

The same thing seems to be true (to a lesser extent) of Adina Porter, Lelsie Grossman, and the rest. Though they are far less famous and celebrated than Paulson, they are simply putting in a stronger and more complex performance here. (Though to be fair, it may only be partially Paulson's part; at least part of it is due to the way that her character has been written.) However, nonetheless, it seems as though by her performance, Paulson is playing the same character each season. One could never get confused between Pill's character here and the one she played on Pillars of the Earth; or Porter's character here and the one she played on True Blood. Yet Paulson's character here is virtually indistinguishable from the one she played last year. 

44 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

So we called it on Ivy being involved but what, exactly, is endgame with Ally? Why are they harassing her without killing her? What do they want out of her? 

IMO, they want to break her down. Make her lose her self confidence, faith in her perceptions, convince her that her sanity and the world itself is slowly slipping away-- than pounce on her to convince her to join the cult. Remember, Kai (like most successful cult recruiters) Has been savvy enough to go after vulnerable, lost, broken people at the end of their ropes. The cult (and Ivy) are smart enough to know that Ally needs a bit of "breaking down" before she gets there-- even with her mental health issues and the wake of the recent election, she still nurtures fairly strong convictions. These need to be destroyed before she is ideal cult fodder. 

Edited October 4, 2017 by Hazel55

[AnimeMania]

I can't believe that Chaz would be in the same room with Ivy and Winter without wanting to kill them.

[txhorns79]

Quote

So we called it on Ivy being involved but what, exactly, is endgame with Ally? Why are they harassing her without killing her? What do they want out of her? 

The only thing I can imagine is they want to drive her to the edge of sanity as a way to break her down, then offer her membership in the cult as a way she can "save" herself.   

[luna1122]

This was almost too much for me. Between the gimp (My fave all time flick is Pulp Fiction, but the gimp still skeeves me out) and the torture porn with the nail gun, I was watching thru my fingers half the episode.

These folks are WHACK. So, yeah, how is that Ivy and Winter and Chaz are all coexisting peacefully? I get that Kai motivates and seduces each one individually, based on their own weaknesses and neuroses, but how does he get the Trump zealot who was tied up in a basement and cut off his own hand to work together with the Hilary chicks who left him there? I have a hard time seeing how these folks are finding a common endgame...is is just anarchy in general they're hoping for? How does Ivy see Oz fitting into her helping to burn the world down?

So Dermot keeps a gimp in the attic, like you do, and licks his bloody gloved fingers as he goes downstairs for ice cream in his pristine boxer briefs. Okay. I kept thinking we'd see the gimp's face, but no.

Ivy/Billie looks better with dark hair.

Kai's backstory is bizarro and sad but I'm uncertain still how he got from point A to point B, and I'm unsure who is batshit craziest in that family. Altho Beverly might be batshit craziest overall.

[RedMal]

That's a lot of answers for one episode. We got to know who and why are these clowns. And the cult member who they killed was Beverly's cameraman (I didn't realize, but I heard it on recap). But I have no idea why they're torturing especially Ally.

That nailgun scene was extremely well made. Hard to watch, but still couldn't turn away.

So the clowns who were having sex at the premiere in the grocery store were Harrison and the cop.

I'm afraid Kai will be a goner sooner than later. Beverly seems to be the most dangerous one.

[Chaos Theory]

Ivy said she wanted to burn the world down which fits into Kai's world view and would probably allow her to work with/around a Trump supporter who probably has the same world view.    Their world view is actually the same now.  Make everyone afraid and burn it all down.

The rest doesn't matter.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[ZoloftBlob]

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I can't believe that Chaz would be in the same room with Ivy and Winter without wanting to kill them.

Prediction - Chaz never saw Ivy or Winter's faces and doesn't know that they are the ones who led to his being an amputee. At some point probably around the end of the season, this will be revealed to him and he will kill numerous members of the cast in unexpected revenge. This will also blow whatever the super intricate cult plan is. 

I liked a lot of the reveals but we're edging into a wee bit too much crazy batshittery. Like ok, keeping the dead parents so you can get their benefits isn't unheard of but if ID Discovery shows have taught me anything, its that people do tend to notice when other people go missing and yet the checks still get cashed.

Beverly and Kai are clearly going to clash. 

[Pixel]

8 hours ago, mamadrama said:

So we called it on Ivy being involved but what, exactly, is endgame with Ally? Why are they harassing her without killing her? What do they want out of her? 

Well, we know now that the breaking point for Ivy with Ally was Ally voting for Stein and making Trump happen - that would make me hate someone too. But, I do think it's likely that Ivy used the cult to terrorize Ally but still cares for her enough to not want her killed.  So they may just be torturing her as a side event with no intention of killing her or even recruiting her.

[Chaos Theory]

8 hours ago, mamadrama said:

So we called it on Ivy being involved but what, exactly, is endgame with Ally? Why are they harassing her without killing her? What do they want out of her? 

 

5 minutes ago, Pixel said:

Well, we know now that the breaking point for Ivy with Ally was Ally voting for Stein and making Trump happen - that would make me hate someone too. But, I do think it's likely that Ivy used the cult to terrorize Ally but still cares for her enough to not want her killed.  So they may just be torturing her as a side event with no intention of killing her or even recruiting her.

There were issues in the marriage before the election as shown in Ally's flashback.  It is possible that Ivy wants custody of Ozy and not being the bio mom knows it will be harder to get unless she proves Ally is unfit. Ally mentioned a biological need to see her son which makes me think she is the bio mom.   Plus there is the restaurant. 

And revenge is always a factor.

Ivy up to this point may not have wanted to kill Ally but she knows all her triggers and I doubt Ally is hard to trigger.

[TobinAlbers]

27 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

Ivy up to this point may not have wanted to kill Ally but she knows all her triggers and I doubt Ally is hard to trigger.

That's what makes this especially so heinous. She's slowly psychologically torturing and terrorizing her own wife and made their son part of the plan. Microwaving the guinea pig and having him find a sex tape starring his mother and his 'babysitter'. That is some really cold shit. Ally may not be the most rootable heroine, but I will root for her to unleash hell on Ivy once she finds out what she did to her.

1 hour ago, RedMal said:

So the clowns who were having sex at the premiere in the grocery store were Harrison and the cop.

Ah. thanks for clearing that up!

It's too bad they didn't have Dylan McDermott in the S1 rubber suit as the gimp in Bob's attic.  It seemed when Bob wailed 'But who will take care of him?!' when the clowns were closing in, that he was concerned for his buddy. His additional wail when he saw that the gimp was dead was also sad.

[Chaos Theory]

On a plus side for Ally Briarcliff has been shut down by this point.

[Anela]

I don't know what a gimp is. I hated pulp fiction, so if it's something from that movie, I've forgotten a lot if what I saw. 

[Avaleigh]

I enjoyed the episode but am glad I'm not the only one who had to turn away during nail death scene. In addition to being horrified and grossed out, I was scared that Ivy and/or Meadow would be next on the chopping block. Ivy is going to be seen as the next weak link. I won't be surprised if Ally kills her for all of the shit that she's pulled.

Even though this episode answered several questions, it still left me with more.

What is Kai's brother's role in the cult? For one thing, he was the one in control when he decided what to do with their parents. Kai was playing along and his brother was the one who was persuasive. His brother is also more than likely the one who is keeping him medicated. (And Kai does not seem to take his meds in the way a normal person would.) The brother gave the cult the tip on when his patient would be getting home with her husband. He's likely given them details about Ally which brings me to another question: How long has Ally been seeing this shrink? Did Ivy connect them? 

No one notices that the parents are MIA for three years? The neighbors, no other relatives? I can't imagine someone being able to pull that off for that long. 

Ivy is so disgusting. They're all awful but she's a special blend of horrifying. So is Beverly. God, she's sick. Is she one of the clowns who killed Serena? 

How did Winter get so pushed over the edge? It's like mental illness runs in their family. I'm disgusted by all of these people. 

How was there not more uneasiness from the followers if they know that each one of them could be next? 

This is the world Ivy thinks will be better for her kid?

Chaz's character has to know that Meadow and Ivy were the ones who kidnapped him because he saw their faces at the rally. It's a mystery to me how he's okay with being on the same team as they are. I guess it's because he was always a sick and disturbed individual. 

I'm confused about what the plan is with Meadow. I can't tell if she's acting or if this is real. How is she not already dead? Why would she be left alone and not covered in dirt right away? That's the sort of thing one would want to handle quickly and with two people it's even easier. Why bury her on the property? 

Edited October 5, 2017 by Avaleigh

[sugarbaker design]

9 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

No one notices that the parents are MIA for three years? The neighbors, no other relatives? I can't imagine someone being able to pull that off for that long. 

It didn't seem like Ma and Pa Anderson were terribly social, and it is totally possible there are no other living relatives, so maybe a 'Mom and Dad retired to Florida, gosh I miss them!' can suffice.

9 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

I'm confused about what the plan is with Meadow. I can't tell if she's acting or if this is real. How is she not already dead? Why would she be left alone and not covered in dirt right away? That's the sort of thing one would want to handle quickly and with two people it's even easier. Why bury her on the property? 

Same here!  I thought burying Meadow was all part of the plan until Meadow mentioned that Ivy is in on it.

Edited October 4, 2017 by sugarbaker design

[txhorns79]

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Mom and Dad retired to Florida, gosh I miss them!

I think that would only work if you are certain the person you are speaking with won't ask the obvious follow up like: "Oh, how nice for them.  What's their number and/or address so I can look them up and speak to them?" 

[Stringey]

Wow with this episode. So many thoughts it would take too long. First of all I know ally and her antics are annoying but I feel so bad for what ivy and the cult has done to her. She has lost her wife and it seems like ivy is trying to make it so she definitely loses her son. We will have to see whether or not they're going to eventually want to recruit her. If this happens and they are unsuccessful in getting her to join I suspect they will kill her. Was so excited to see those behind the masks are all our key players. I honestly might have thought they were followers but not our main players. Was even surprised to see Kai participate because i thought he was smart enough not to get his hands dirty. Manson I believe most of the time did not participate. I am so glad we got to see it's actually key players behind the masks. Love that Kai is under the creepy multi faced one. Glad also we found out his real backstory and I hope we see him visit his parents room again. Wow that is so creepy.

[peacheslatour]

3 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Ivy said she wanted to burn the world down which fits into Kai's world view and would probably allow her to work with/around a Trump supporter who probably has the same world view.    Their world view is actually the same now.  Make everyone afraid and burn it all down.

The rest doesn't matter.

User name checks out.

[sugarbaker design]

17 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I think that would only work if you are certain the person you are speaking with won't ask the obvious follow up like: "Oh, how nice for them.  What's their number and/or address so I can look them up and speak to them?" 

Right, and since the relationship is an abusive one, I can easily see Ma and Pa not making any kind of connections with their neighbors.

[Cheyanne11]

Wow, I was so wrong about Ivy not being involved.  She's in it up to her hipster glasses.  No points for her that all the killing is upsetting to her.  Girl, please.

I'm confused about Meadow.  Was the scene with her in the grave and pounding on the window more gaslighting of Ally--or is she really in danger?  Harrison said she was "with a friend" when she wasn't at the meeting, so I'm thinking maybe he and the cop have gone rogue to get rid of her?

[BlancheDevoreaux]

49 minutes ago, sugarbaker design said:

It didn't seem like Ma and Pa Anderson were terribly social, and it is totally possible there are no other living relatives, so maybe a 'Mom and Dad retired to Florida, gosh I miss them!' can suffice.

Same here!  I thought burying Meadow was all part of the plan until Meadow mentioned that Ivy is in on it.

 

26 minutes ago, Cheyanne11 said:

Wow, I was so wrong about Ivy not being involved.  She's in it up to her hipster glasses.  No points for her that all the killing is upsetting to her.  Girl, please.

I'm confused about Meadow.  Was the scene with her in the grave and pounding on the window more gaslighting of Ally--or is she really in danger?  Harrison said she was "with a friend" when she wasn't at the meeting, so I'm thinking maybe he and the cop have gone rogue to get rid of her?

I wonder if maybe Meadow is still part of all of it and told Ally that Ivy was part of it to help push Ally over the edge.  If she doesn't think she can even trust Ivy anymore, she will be that much closer to completely losing it.

 

 

Or... Harrison and the cop are definitely done with her.  Honestly, I think this is most likely but I prefer the idea that it is all part of pushing Ally over the edge.  Then again, I'm a weirdo who loves the idea of the cop, Harrison, and Meadow all living together in dysfunctional marital bliss.

[mamadrama]

3 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

 

There were issues in the marriage before the election as shown in Ally's flashback.  It is possible that Ivy wants custody of Ozy and not being the bio mom knows it will be harder to get unless she proves Ally is unfit. Ally mentioned a biological need to see her son which makes me think she is the bio mom.   

I actually think Ivy IS Ozzy's bio mom. I feel like they are making that point with the matching blonde hair and big glasses. Adoptive mothers often claim to have a biological link to their children, even though there's no blood relations.

Eh, who knows? Story could go anywhere at this point.

[iMonrey]

While this episode did clear up quite a few questions, it raised several more. I think I now grasp the idea that Kai was never actually a Trump supporter, per se, but wanted Trump to win simply because it would sow chaos which is exactly what he needs for his agenda. However, I'm still unclear exactly what Kai's ultimate agenda is. At the end of the day, what does he hope to accomplish with this cult? 

Also, if the television producer (Dermot Mulroney) was banging Emma Roberts' character, why did he have a male submissive up in his attic? Is he supposed to be bi?

Quote

So, yeah, how is that Ivy and Winter and Chaz are all coexisting peacefully? I get that Kai motivates and seduces each one individually, based on their own weaknesses and neuroses, but how does he get the Trump zealot who was tied up in a basement and cut off his own hand to work together with the Hilary chicks who left him there? I have a hard time seeing how these folks are finding a common endgame...is is just anarchy in general they're hoping for? How does Ivy see Oz fitting into her helping to burn the world down?

Yeah, this "group" doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, and I've brought that up in prior episodes. You kind of have to hand-wave a lot of logic in order for a lot of this to work because at the end of the day, it's really hard to buy such a diverse group of people actually "following" Kai and coming together like this. It's necessary for story purposes but I don't know that I'll ever quite believe it.

[Avaleigh]

6 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

While this episode did clear up quite a few questions, it raised several more. I think I now grasp the idea that Kai was never actually a Trump supporter, per se, but wanted Trump to win simply because it would sow chaos which is exactly what he needs for his agenda. However, I'm still unclear exactly what Kai's ultimate agenda is. At the end of the day, what does he hope to accomplish with this cult? 

Also, if the television producer (Dermot Mulroney) was banging Emma Roberts' character, why did he have a male submissive up in his attic? Is he supposed to be bi?

Yeah, this "group" doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, and I've brought that up in prior episodes. You kind of have to hand-wave a lot of logic in order for a lot of this to work because at the end of the day, it's really hard to buy such a diverse group of people actually "following" Kai and coming together like this. It's necessary for story purposes but I don't know that I'll ever quite believe it.

If we believe what Kai told Harrison then his longterm plan is "world domination". As to what he wants this new world to look like, I'm still unclear on that part. 

I don't really believe that Bob and Serena were having sex. I think he was flirting with her and that was part of his way of having a beard so to speak. 

I can't see how Beverly getting along with most of the people in the group. Same with the Chaz Bono character. 

I didn't catch the line about Harrison saying that Meadow is with a friend. I'm very confused as to what's happening there. It seems like Kai was giving Harrison the okay to get rid of Ivy because she was another weak link who didn't want to kill the married couple but how they've gone about it so far makes zero sense to me.

One other question I have--are we 100% sure that Kai was telling Beverly the truth about what happened with his parents? I lean towards it being true but wonder if Kai was the one to actually kill them. Just the fact that Kai chose to call his brother rather than the police when he seemed to not initially be comfortable about his brother's plan.

I laughed out loud when the one guy complained about the weight of the coffin and said that there's usually six guys carrying one, and Harrison irritatedly replies that six guys are only needed when there's a body in the coffin.

[courville]

Who is RJ exactly? (Nails to the head victim) I swear I don't remember seeing him in previous episodes. 

[questionfear]

8 minutes ago, courville said:

Who is RJ exactly? (Nails to the head victim) I swear I don't remember seeing him in previous episodes. 

Beverly Hope's cameraman. He was shown/mentioned a few times last episode (she yelled at him to shut up a few times). 

[Chaos Theory]

48 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

While this episode did clear up quite a few questions, it raised several more. I think I now grasp the idea that Kai was never actually a Trump supporter, per se, but wanted Trump to win simply because it would sow chaos which is exactly what he needs for his agenda. However, I'm still unclear exactly what Kai's ultimate agenda is. At the end of the day, what does he hope to accomplish with this cult? 

Also, if the television producer (Dermot Mulroney) was banging Emma Roberts' character, why did he have a male submissive up in his attic? Is he supposed to be bi?

Yeah, this "group" doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, and I've brought that up in prior episodes. You kind of have to hand-wave a lot of logic in order for a lot of this to work because at the end of the day, it's really hard to buy such a diverse group of people actually "following" Kai and coming together like this. It's necessary for story purposes but I don't know that I'll ever quite believe it.

Didn't he tell Harrison he wanted a world without labels.  That might appeal to Bob who feels like he has been unfairly labeled because he is a heterosexual male.  It might also appeal to Ivy who suddenly deals labeled in a Trump world.  Meadow's motivation has always been unclear but I don't mind.   Hope's motivation is simple power.  I don't think she actually cares what group she belongs to as long as she is treated fairly and given fair say.   So I can see all of them following Kai and his vision for their own reasons.  

Plus this reminds me of the Star Trek movie The Undiscovered Country (I think it was) where Federation officers and Klingons formed and allience because they feared peace.  

Just because you are on different sides doesn't mean you are on different sides.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[Anela]

RJ was apparently Beverly's camera man. He looked like Jake Gyllenhaal to me, which was a bit distracting, just because I kept thinking that, instead of paying attention. 

RJ was the one that didn't want to kill the married couple. I think he was the one to ask when they were going to let them out. Ivy got sick after they killed the gimp, and Winter said something about how that was expected, that she hadn't been there when someone was killed before. 

I'm still wondering where they get Kai and ally being a love story for the ages. I wonder if he ends up pairing with her against the rest, for some reason. Like if Beverly tries to get rid of him, as someone else said she might. 

[courville]

2 minutes ago, questionfear said:

Beverly Hope's cameraman. He was shown/mentioned a few times last episode (she yelled at him to shut up a few times). 

Lawd, thank you! 

[Madding crowd]

This was too gory for me and the creepy show that was the first few episodes, is now just torture porn. There is no one to really root for here and I don't know what type of 'world' these people envision from the murders. Ivy is a despicable person. Am I really supposed to believe she is terrorizing her wife, removing her from her child (and adoptive parents are every bit a parent as bio ones), leaving her with no money just because she voted wrong? And what did Ozzy do that would cause his mother to take away his other parent, allow Winter to traumatize him by showing him murder videos, allow his pet to be murdered, and allow scary clowns to haunt him. He didn't deserve anything like this (neither did Ally).

Not sure I  believe no one on earth would figure out Kai's parent's were missing-this happened often years ago but almost everyone is on some sort of social media, has a job with co-workers, has relatives, something. And would he really want to live with the rotten bodies? In regard to Beverly: I am a reporter myself, although newspaper instead of TV. Killing my editor would not allow me to publish anything I wanted-another editor would be appointed and would enforce the same policies. Even if Beverly murdered everyone at the TV station, she would still have to worry about sponsors etc. So it is nothing but a desire to show us more torture. I might watch one more episode but unless they give Ally a little fight back power, I'm out. 

[sugarbaker design]

13 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

Am I really supposed to believe she is terrorizing her wife, removing her from her child (and adoptive parents are every bit a parent as bio ones), leaving her with no money just because she voted wrong?

Ally and Ivy were having problems way before election day.  It was revealed in this episode that Ally owns the building that houses the restaurant.  Sole custody of one's kid and ownership of a huge property seem like motivating factors to me.

[Avaleigh]

5 hours ago, luna1122 said:

Kai's backstory is bizarro and sad but I'm uncertain still how he got from point A to point B, and I'm unsure who is batshit craziest in that family. Altho Beverly might be batshit craziest overall.

I was on the fence about his story but now I'm guessing that he wasn't telling Beverly the truth. I just don't believe that he'd give her that power. I think he's trying to make her feel important by making it seem as though he's only trusting her with this info. 

I also think that he told the story in a way to make himself seem sympathetic. Based on everything that we've seen in terms of Kai's actions shows that he's a deeply disturbed individual who gets off on killing people. I don't think the gym guy or the the married couple were his first times killing people. He seemed too accustomed to it already. 

I think he killed his parents and I think that's the reason that he called his brother instead of the police. I'm wondering if maybe he killed the father and expected his mother to be grateful only to have her be upset with him so he turned around and killed her too before she called the police. 

[Florinaldo]

So Ivy is indeed part of the cult; so much for my hope that RM and his writers would come up with an ingenious plot twist despite the previous anvils. Considering that precedent, it may be too much to expect that suspicions against Kai's brother being directly involved are just a diversion and that he is being used by his brother without his knowing.

After the excellent previous episode, this one was jarring and thus disappointing because I felt there were a beat or two that were missing in the progression of the cult coming together. Last time we saw Kai recruiting them and now they are already committing ritualistic murders together. After only a few months?

I don't think that even the followers of Jim Jones or members of the Heaven's Gate cult would have been ready to commit mass suicides (voluntary and enforced) after such a short time. I think the story would have needed a few more steps to show their descent into outright killings. Even the intense near-batshit crazy reporter needed a little more progression into violence, for me anyway.

And Ally, if you want to play voyeur, turn off the lights in the room you are in, especially if you open the blinds!

[iMonrey]

Quote

Just because you are on different sides doesn't mean you are on different sides.

The idea that people from widely diverse background could unite for a common cause is devoutly to be wished. It makes a nice feel-good story when people come together to help after a tragedy like an earthquake or a hurricane. But the reality of this situation is that whatever Kai is selling is appealing to the worst in these people, not the best. It's a real stretch to think some redneck Trump supporter and some liberal lesbian would join forces to murder and terrorize people in order to bring about some ill-defined new world order. This is a cult, not a charity. 

Now, as a political parable, I could potentially envision a bunch of Trump supporters and a bunch of Sanders supporters coming together out of frustration over similar things. I do not, however, imagine they'd ever be able to agree on anything enough to get anything done.

[sugarbaker design]

6 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

I was on the fence about his story but now I'm guessing that he wasn't telling Beverly the truth. I just don't believe that he'd give her that power.

If he was only telling Beverly, I would be highly suspect, but since we got a video narrative along with the story, I believe Kai, but only based on what we have seen.  For example, how his father wound up shot is anybody's guess, that was done off camera.

3 minutes ago, Florinaldo said:

After the excellent previous episode, this one was jarring and thus disappointing because I felt there were a beat or two that were missing in the progression of the cult coming together. Last time we saw Kai recruiting them and now they are already committing ritualistic murders together. After only a few months?

But isn't that the point though?  Kai is selecting the people who are already on the edge of a breakdown.

[HunterHunted]

11 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

Not sure I  believe no one on earth would figure out Kai's parent's were missing-this happened often years ago but almost everyone is on some sort of social media, has a job with co-workers, has relatives, something. And would he really want to live with the rotten bodies? In regard to Beverly: I am a reporter myself, although newspaper instead of TV. Killing my editor would not allow me to publish anything I wanted-another editor would be appointed and would enforce the same policies. Even if Beverly murdered everyone at the TV station, she would still have to worry about sponsors etc. So it is nothing but a desire to show us more torture. I might watch one more episode but unless they give Ally a little fight back power, I'm out. 

THIS!!!!!!! Even in other disciplines, you can't just have your boss die and assume that you'd be the boss or get to do whatever you wanted. Even if they put you in your supervisor's role temporarily, they'd just as soon hire someone else to fill it. Bob seemed to be the night time news anchor and head of the news department. He had some producer and editorial responsibilities. Killing Bob only meant that an executive producer is now responsible for his job duties. 

I feel like there is a remarkable amount of hand-waving that I have to do to have this conspiracy make any sense or be remotely capable of being pulled off. Instead of a cop in the cult, they need at least three 911 shift supervisors, a couple of police supervisors, some detectives, and some patrolmen. This is the only way you can make sure that calls from your targets go to the members of your conspiracy without anything appearing to be suspicious.

Edited October 5, 2017 by HunterHunted

[Pixel]

40 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

THIS!!!!!!! Even in other disciplines, you can't just have your boss die and assume that you'd be the boss or get to do whatever you wanted. Even if they put you in your supervisor's role temporarily, they'd just as soon hire someone else to fill it. Bob seemed to be the night time news anchor and head of the news department. He had some producer and editorial responsibilities. Killing Bob only meant that an executive producer is now responsible for his job duties. 

I feel like there is a remarkable amount of hand-waving that I have to do have this conspiracy make any sense or be remotely capable of being pulled off. Instead of a cop in the cult, they need at least three 911 shift supervisors, a couple of police supervisors, some detectives, and some patrolmen. This is the only way you can make sure that calls from your targets go to the members of your conspiracy without anything appearing to be suspicious.

Every season I have to do an incredible amount of suspension of disbelief. 

[Florinaldo]

41 minutes ago, sugarbaker design said:

But isn't that the point though?  Kai is selecting the people who are already on the edge of a breakdown.

Even if they were on the edge of a "breakdown" the process would take more time in my view to appear believable. Anyway, I don't believe that description applies to most of them as they were written. They were tense, were having problems or felt insecure for example, but were not on the verge of mental dissolution.

43 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

you can't just have your boss die and assume that you'd be the boss or get to do whatever you wanted.

Quite right; as a career path, "killing one's way to the top" has its limits.

[JyDanzig]

56 minutes ago, Florinaldo said:

After the excellent previous episode, this one was jarring and thus disappointing because I felt there were a beat or two that were missing in the progression of the cult coming together. Last time we saw Kai recruiting them and now they are already committing ritualistic murders together. After only a few months?

I don't think that even the followers of Jim Jones or members of the Heaven's Gate cult would have been ready to commit mass suicides (voluntary and enforced) after such a short time. I think the story would have needed a few more steps to show their descent into outright killings. Even the intense near-batshit crazy reporter needed a little more progression into violence, for me anyway.

This was exactly my issue!  I can handwave the complicated plot mechanics of how specifically they would execute these plans, I'm willing to just go with a lot of things on this show, but I can't suspend my disbelief past basic character motivation.

That being said, with the fractured timeline, I started thinking we're going to fill this in from another POV later, so I'm reserving judgment and hoping that happens...

[Chaos Theory]

20 minutes ago, Florinaldo said:

 

Quite right; as a career path, "killing one's way to the top" has its limits.

See that's why I read this site even when I disagree with half the posts I end up learning something.  *Cancels Amazon purchase of Ax*

I still have no problem believing all the members of Kai's cult would function effectively as a unit.  Now if Ivy was paired off with Chas (i think charcters name is Bob but we are all gonna call him Chas aren't we?) then there might be some friction.

[Avaleigh]

1 hour ago, sugarbaker design said:

If he was only telling Beverly, I would be highly suspect, but since we got a video narrative along with the story, I believe Kai, but only based on what we have seen.  For example, how his father wound up shot is anybody's guess, that was done off camera.

I think most of what we saw happened. I think that his brother and sister believe it was a murder/suicide. I just don't trust Kai's version of how his parents died. 

This guy IS the weird creep who lives in his parents' basement. That city councilman had him pegged accurately from episode one. His father was constantly berating him. I think all of that stuff happened. 

He had the motive, the opportunity, and we know for a fact that he's a psychopath who gets off on killing people. You also have him calling the brother instead of the police. It's like he's testing the water and wants to see if somebody is going to believe his version of events. He initially objects to Vincent's plan but if he was so interested in not being "disrespectful" of his parents' bodies by leaving them there, why weren't the police his first phone call? IMO there was some self preservation going on with that move.

I won't be surprised if we end up getting the real version of that flashback. Perhaps when Kai and Beverly have a showdown about who's really in control.  

[ShadowHunter]

14 hours ago, Hazel55 said:

Oh yeah! I guessed from the first episode that both Ivy and the shrink were in on the cult, but I never once supposed that Dr. VIncent and Kai were in any way related. Excellent twist. Probably one of the best plot twist they've ever featured on this show; even better than a few heavily publicized plot twists featured back in the first two seasons (Tate is rubber suit, Threadson is Bloody Face, etc.), when the show was still in top form. 

At this point I would almost rather have any female on the show rather than Ally as the heroine-- Meadow, Winter, Beverly, Ivy. All are morally suspect and compromised. However, all are far more capable, competent, interesting, and far more compelling characters for me than Ally to my eyes at this point. And all are played by subtler, more nuanced actresses.

Yes, I know that Sarah Paulson has put in great, even award winning performances elsewhere, and thus must be a fine actress. But this particular performance is not really impressing me. Furthermore, though I'd dub her, at her best (like in American Crime Story and ASL: Asylum), as a strong actress, I've never found her to be a particularly subtle or nuanced one. Her "act" (demeanor, speech, and mannerisms) don't really vary from role to role. (Save for when she put on the terrible fake British accent last year.) Alison Pill, in contrast, whom I've seen in several other things, really adds layers to each character, and seems to possess depth and versatility to each role. 

The same thing seems to be true (to a lesser extent) of Adina Porter, Lelsie Grossman, and the rest. Though they are far less famous and celebrated than Paulson, they are simply putting in a stronger and more complex performance here. (Though to be fair, it may only be partially Paulson's part; at least part of it is due to the way that her character has been written.) However, nonetheless, it seems as though by her performance, Paulson is playing the same character each season. One could never get confused between Pill's character here and the one she played on Pillars of the Earth; or Porter's character here and the one she played on True Blood. Yet Paulson's character here is virtually indistinguishable from the one she played last year. 

IMO, they want to break her down. Make her lose her self confidence, faith in her perceptions, convince her that her sanity and the world itself is slowly slipping away-- than pounce on her to convince her to join the cult. Remember, Kai (like most successful cult recruiters) Has been savvy enough to go after vulnerable, lost, broken people at the end of their ropes. The cult (and Ivy) are smart enough to know that Ally needs a bit of "breaking down" before she gets there-- even with her mental health issues and the wake of the recent election, she still nurtures fairly strong convictions. These need to be destroyed before she is ideal cult fodder. 

Yes, Sarah in this season so far is having a meltdown every week. We only get a break in Episode 4 because she was not really on. Agree Adina and Leslie are great. My co worker thinks they are doing better then Sarah. I hope things get better with Ally.  It would be great if she ends up being Kai's next in command.

I wonder how the cop got involved? Did Kai bring him? Did Harrison? 

For now I will go with what Kai said about his parents is true until we learn the truth one way or another. 

I need a family scene now between  Winter, Kai, and Vincent.

[CrazyDog]

51 minutes ago, JyDanzig said:

This was exactly my issue!  I can handwave the complicated plot mechanics of how specifically they would execute these plans, I'm willing to just go with a lot of things on this show, but I can't suspend my disbelief past basic character motivation.

That being said, with the fractured timeline, I started thinking we're going to fill this in from another POV later, so I'm reserving judgment and hoping that happens...

I agree with this. With Harrison, one day he's obviously dealing with some longtime stress and humiliation from his boss, the next he's dropping weights on his trachea, following it up with actively killing him? I get the season isn't super long, but that seemed a bit of a stretch to happen so quickly after meeting Kai, even in this day and age of people "snapping" (feels uncomfortable to even write that right now). 

I still love the actor though, he and Meadow were one of my favorite parts of this season and added some much needed humor.

I question Kai's backstory, only because he seemed to break down way too easily. The story may have been true, but no way would he show that kind of weakness in front of one of his minions so quickly.

Ivy? Wow, do I hate her. I really want to understand what these people expect this new world to look like. How does she see this as better for Ozzy, especially after everything she's putting him through?

I was never as annoyed by Ally as others, but for all her flaws, I'm really hoping the endgame isn't drawing her into the cult, but fighting it. She's showing more strength in her own way as the season goes on.

Meadow's situation is confusing. Was she tied up in that hole in the ground, but she escaped? Her showing up at the window could have been real or contrived. But it does seem like Kai wanted her gone as a weak link.  Yet the whole thing was weird and faked.

Beverly is terrifying because she's smart, calculating and focused. Yikes.

1 hour ago, Florinaldo said:

And Ally, if you want to play voyeur, turn off the lights in the room you are in, especially if you open the blinds!

THIS. 

Edited October 4, 2017 by CrazyDog