S01.E05: What Kind Of Bad?

[Drogo]

Abby is disappointed when Dominique returns from a trip home with a new girl; Bobby tries to change Vincent's mind about Rudy's offer; Candy mulls a career change after she's roughed up by a john; Chris explores the exhilaration of gay life in the city; Sandra scores a key interview with a pimp with some help from Alston.

[Primetimer]

Vincent's family values push him into the sex trade.

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[Rinaldo]

Finally Rodney gets some real screen time (and that was a really good scene he had with Candy). I like Method Man in the role, a lot. I see from his end credit that he's making the Dwayne Johnson nomenclature transition; no doubt in another couple years we'll call him simply Cliff Smith. 

So, a massage parlor. Yes, Times Square was full of them in the early 1970s. More than once I'd be walking down a side street after the theater let out, and while walking by a glass door would be startled by a knock, the lady inside aiming to catch my eye and gesture "wanna come in?" with her eyes.

I like the way Vincent's being written (and the way Franco's playing him): basically a good generous guy, but with his not-so-great sides too (aside from that little matter of walking out on his family, he can shrug off some bad stuff that happens to others, and he finds things funny that I wouldn't), all in character. He's learning on some fronts -- he now says "gay bar" without even thinking about it.

The Park Miller, yes, that's a piece of history. The venue for bottom-of-the-barrel gay blue movies, with the real action in the auditorium (and arrests by entrapment by no means uncommon). I hasten to add that my awareness comes only from reading about it. "Respectable" gay erotic cinema arrived in 1972, with The Boys in the Sand.

[LilaFowler]

Margarita Levieva has beauuuuutiful hair but that's all I can say about her and her character. I hope that this is simply a (very) slow build to give her something great to do because I am getting annoyed with her boring storyline. She could be gone from the show and would anyone notice?

I continue to be very impressed with the acting. Maggie G is amazing as always, but Method Man had a great scene tonight and James Franco has been great, too.

Edited October 9, 2017 by LilaFowler

[Lillith]

I still want to know so much more about Candy's backstory. Because she seems like she has reasonable intelligence, so how did she get into the life? Well I guess I have to keep watching.\

Abby bores me, both the actor and the character. She's lovely but that's kind of it. 

I loved Bobby's vision for the brothel. He's a natural! And if that doesn't work out he can segue into interior design easy. 

[thuganomics85]

Frankie ranking gays guys on top of couplings (against lesbians and straight couples) because men want to have sex all the time was both hilarious and almost strangely touching because I think in his goofy mind, he was really trying to bond with Paul and be cool with gay guys.  Oh, Frankie!  I also like that Vincent still has his off moments like automatically assuming all gay men know how to draw, but you can still tell that he is more open-minded then most.

So, the abandon building is going to be a massage parlor, because I guess they suspect the city is going to do a big sweep soon, and they want to have all the prostitutes in one place.  Basically, a brothel.  And Vincent refuses at first, but now relents and is letting Bobby run it.  I'm all for Chris Bauer and I admire his gumption, but I have a bad feeling something is going to cause chaos on this front.

The Candy/Rodney scene was riveting.  Really well done by both Maggie Gyllenhall and Method Man.  But it looks like Candy has finally had enough and is going to go into the porn business?

I don't mind Abby (mainly due to Margarita Levieva), but I'm a bit unsure of what is going on with her character.  I get that she feels like Darlene betrayed her, but now she's doing other things like getting in fights with Reggie and now refusing to wear the work outfits?  It's like they're trying to make her both naive and enlightened at the same time, and there is a bit of a whiplash going on.

Still enjoying the reporter and the cop.

I guess that brief C.C./Lori moment is suppose to show that Lori is still struggling?

[Rinaldo]

5 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

So, the abandon building is going to be a massage parlor, because I guess they suspect the city is going to do a big sweep soon, and they want to have all the prostitutes in one place.

If I heard right, it's more than suspicion -- they've had hush-hush word from city officials that if they can get the trade off the streets, thus improving the image of the city, they won't be hassled much (just an occasional raid for show, that they'll be warned in advance about).

5 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

It's like they're trying to make [Abby] both naive and enlightened at the same time

It feels plausible enough to me. She is naive about what these lives are really like, but even though she rolled her eyes at her old college friends when she saw them again, she's still one of them in many ways; her college classes and privileged background make her think she has more insight than she does. 

[luna1122]

The scene between Method Man and Maggie was riveting, and so interestingly staged.  Rodney was terrifying in the way he could toggle back and forth between nurturing and concerned to threatening and abusive so EASILY. So is Rodney right...Candy's dad was sexually abusive or something? Its maybe cliched and condescending to try to figure out WHY a sex worker is a sex worker, but it definitely seems strange in Candy's middle class, obviously smart, should-have-had-other-choices life. I feel for Candy, but I don't always necessarily like her. The storyline with the new beau will likely wind up with him being shocked and betrayed to find she's a hooker, and we'll be supposed to think he's an asshole for not wanting to be with her for it, but I do think most men would react that way. She's very emotionally damaged, and her interactions with the new guy are all a little skewed and edgy--she has no idea how to be with a nice, regular guy, and probably doesn't believe they actually exist (understandably enough). i did like his reaction to her masturbation...I figured he'd get huffy and upset and threatened (also, dudes, if you have to ask if a woman came, she didn't) but he kind of sweetly just let her do her thing while rubbing her back...that was nice. and THEN him asking if she came that time...that was perfect, and funny.

Watching Candy get the shit beat out of her was horrifying.

This episode changed the way I feel about Darlene. I'd thought she was a sweet girl, who wanted more for herself, eventually, but her willingness to take Abby's bus ticket to go home and pimp for her pimp, without being at all honest with these girls who had been her friends...that was pretty despicable.

I'm not supposing that Vinnie's sister is gonna know her hubby has taken on a new career in pimpdom. I did like that VInce said he had respect for those women and didn't want to hurt them...so at least the girls at the new massage place will be, I hope, treated better than the norm.

I don't know how I feel about Abby. Her superior ennui with most everything in life is boring, but I like the actress, and I kind of GET Abby in ways I can't quite elucidate. I kind of WAS an Abby when I was that age...i didn't really think i was better or knew more than anyone, and I wasn't really bored by everything and everyone, but that was kind of my defense mechanism--I was really insecure almost all the time, so I put on this shield to hide it. I'm just not sure Abby's is a shield, or if she really does think she's better than everyone else in the world. Her fasicnation with the underbelly of things is interesting...I just hope she doesn't wind up becoming a hooker herself. I keep getting the uneasy feeling that's where she's headed.

[numbnut]

11 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

The Candy/Rodney scene was riveting.  Really well done by both Maggie Gyllenhall and Method Man.  But it looks like Candy has finally had enough and is going to go into the porn business?

That street scene was like a stage play. I was so anxious that Candy was going to cave and allow Rodney to be her pimp that I was actually relieved that she chose to be a porn actress instead. LOL. I'm surprised that her wig didn't come off when that asshole grabbed her by the hair.

Abby bores me and I still don't understand the character. Margarita L. has never impressed me in other projects. She seems to be a "hair" actress, in that she relies too much on how her hair makes her attractive. Would she ever get a pixie cut or shave it all off to inhabit a role?

The twin thing is grating on my nerves. Just as I feared, Franco plays Frankie as a loud caricature in order to stand apart from Vinnie.

Not enough CC. Why is Lori struggling? She seemed okay in the tunnel episode. (I can assume something happened after that but I'd rather see what happened.) Nice reveal of Darlene as a player. I'm stunned that the waitress would immediately accept being sold as a hooker. The writers cut a few corners to get there.

Edited October 9, 2017 by numbnut

[Keepitmoving]

Sorry Abby, but you can't give a gift and then dictate what the receiver does with it. Not to mention, did you not hear Darlene last week tell you that her aunt wouldn't give her any money because she had played her one too many times. If you weren't so privileged and just plain naive that should have been a clue that you would end up getting played. She literally told you that's who she is and why? Who knows, I hope to find out more, but it is what it is. I knew she was going home to recruit some other naive country girl for her pimp. He has her trained and she doesn't want to go home to stay, because as trained as she is, her pimp isn't holding her hostage. She can leave and go far away whenever she wants and not turn back. I loved when, I forgot her name, but she "belongs" to Lori's pimp as well, I loved when she schooled Abby on Darlene's life and how maybe she's doing and is exactly where she wants to be, about how all these men are "pimps" in many of these sex workers eyes, your daddy, your husband and at least the pimps are up front about their game.  

Edited October 9, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Drogo]

Reggie Love is fucking with you, Sandra.  

Reggie Love is not fucking with you, Abby.

[SoothingDave]

Her name "was" Bernice, but nobody wants to fuck anybody named Bernice.  

[Joimiaroxeu]

It was nice to see James McDaniel again. Seemed like old NYPD Blue times.

Who was that guy who beat up Candy? Was he a random robber masquerading as a john or was he a pimp trying to take over her? Maybe Randy sicced him on her.

The bartender was entrapped, right? That detective really did give him head. 

I am loving Method Man with that conked hairdo. (I imagine it's actually a wig but back in the early 70s it wouldn't have been.)

Reggie Love is speaking of himself in the third person like a douchebag.

[Drogo]

5 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

The bartender was entrapped, right? That detective really did give him head.

"The Giver" was in lockup, same as Paul.  He wasn't a detective. 

The cops were just picking up every guy walking out of the theater for a bullshit soliciting charge, whether or not they solicited anything- just discriminatory bullshit.

[dd21dd21]

Abby will either end up dead or a hooker herself sadly

 

and up to this point maybe because I wasn't paying attention enough, but I thought Method Man had no "girls" lol he was always in scenes by himself or with the other pimps

Edited October 9, 2017 by dd21dd21

[Rinaldo]

40 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

I am loving Method Man with that conked hairdo. (I imagine it's actually a wig but back in the early 70s it wouldn't have been.)

He has spoken about it being a wig, as in this interview. (On other occasions he has given the hair department total credit for the hair, which is both more diplomatic and probably true. Which is not to say he didn't find verification when doing his research.) He has also made a point of giving credit to Maggie Gyllenhaal for suggesting that they rehearse their big scene a day ahead of time. (It paid off! I see lots of bloggers giving special notice to that scene today.)

I'm recalling some of the commentary from David Simon when The Wire was made, that lots of rappers send word through "their people" that they might be willing to take a role if it were offered, but Method Man was the one who came in and auditioned like an actor, and wanted to discuss the character. I'd say he has proven his worth as an actor by now. I can't wait to see Cliff Smith's next big scene.

[sistermagpie]

15 hours ago, LilaFowler said:

Margarita Levieva has beauuuuutiful hair but that's all I can say about her and her character. I hope that this is simply a (very) slow build to give her something great to do because I am getting annoyed with her boring storyline. She could be gone from the show and would anyone notice?

Yeah, I get what's supposed to be going on with her and I believe she'd feel secure enough to pick a fight with a pimp because she's so clueless, but why am I watching this privileged girl roll her eyes and be bored at her college friends as if the people she's hanging out with are somehow more scintillating because they're poor? I'll bet those other kids find her completely insufferable. I much prefer watching the characters in that world interacting with each other without her. Can't remember if I said this before but I have a friend who said about her, "I know David Simon is way too powerful for this and HBO doesn't have a reputation for interfering with shows so it's not true, but damn that character reeks of Network interference."

 

4 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

I forgot her name, but she "belongs" to Lori's pimp as well, I loved when she schooled Abby on Darlene's life and how maybe she's doing and is exactly where she wants to be, about how all these men are "pimps" in many of these sex workers eyes, your daddy, your husband and at least the pimps are up front about their game.  

I loved her telling Abby that Darlene was making her own decisions (Abby just decided that Darlene even wanted to go home in the first place) but the second part sounded just like something pimps tell their girls along with their lies. Abby's father is not acting like a pimp for paying for her education - and pimps aren't upfront at all. That particular woman, in fact, seems to have the exact opposite idea really. When we first met her she was acting like her pimp was a boyfriend who actually cared about her. 

Poor Candy. That scene with Rodney was great. Both of them in it. Candy really looks like she's aging in fast-forward. I also would like to know her backstory and how she wound up in this wildly dangerous profession and gross world. That was actually one of the things I found so shocking about the opening of the ep--the country really did look deliciously fresh compared to where we've been. Glad that Darlene's friends didn't listen to her lies. I wonder if they really believe she's a model. At least the girl she brought with her would have gotten sent back home (like Darlene, she was making a choice to do this). Her other friends might have been old enough that he wouldn't have done that--and I don't even want to know how he'd force them into the life just because Darlene got them to New York.

Oh, and I loved the reporter's snarky line about how Sisyphus didn't get paid every time he pushed the rock up the hill and the guy getting so defensive about it. The show makes me want to watch Serpico again!

Edited October 9, 2017 by sistermagpie

[nilyank]

I really need to know Candy's backstory. With her looks, smarts, answering machine and hussle, there is no reason that she is a streetwalker when she can be a call girl with a set of regular clients. She could charge more and maybe work less than she has to now.

[ahpny]

Quote

Sorry Abby, but you can't give a gift and then dictate what the receiver does with it. Not to mention, did you not hear Darlene last week tell you that her aunt wouldn't give her any money because she had played her one too many times. If you weren't so privileged and just plain naive that should have been a clue that you would end up getting played. She literally told you that's who she is and why?

All true, but I’d cut her a bit of slack. She’s one of the few who sees the situation clearly as the horror that it is. At least she tried to do something (however stupid) about it while everyone else just tolerates it. Being dissed for flaunting her privilege by the bar patron reminded me of “Baby” being scolded in “Dirty Dancing” for running to her father to get money for another’s abortion. Yes, some people have money, power and status, and others don’t. That doesn’t mean that those with money, power and status deserve ridicule merely for trying to help, even if an ability to help comes easily to them. Abby had every reason to feel disappointed, though the source of that seemed more disappointment with herself being so naïve and thinking that her efforts could have really helped.

But none of this explains her aggressive pimp-dissing, which seems destined to get her in trouble, and foreshadow further conflict.

[Joimiaroxeu]

3 hours ago, Drogo said:

"The Giver" was in lockup, same as Paul.  He wasn't a detective. 

The cops were just picking up every guy walking out of the theater for a bullshit soliciting charge, whether or not they solicited anything- just discriminatory bullshit.

Thanks for the clarification. Clearly I wasn't paying full attention during that scene.

Quote

I know David Simon is way too powerful for this and HBO doesn't have a reputation for interfering with shows so it's not true, but damn that character reeks of Network interference."

She's reminding me of the Megan character on Mad Men. People are still wondering why/how Jessica Pare almost ate the show for a couple of seasons.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Joimiaroxeu

[numbnut]

To me, the actor playing Paul will always be the gum-chewing, cool-as-a-cucumber asshole from Terminus in The Walking Dead.

Edited October 10, 2017 by numbnut

[tennisgurl]

Who knew Method Man was such a good actor? That scene with Rodney and Candy was just riveting, so well acted and well written. I also want to know what Candy's deal is. I guess I shouldn't just assume that every street walker is out there because of abuse or poverty or something, but its a rough life and Candy clearly hates it, so how did she end up here? I cant imagine her relationship with the nice guy she met is going to end well. She doesn't seem to know how to be with a "normal" guy as just two people dating (understandably) so I dont see this lasting. 

I dug the scene with Frankie talking to Paul about how gay men "obviously" must have sex all of the time. It clear shows a lack of understanding of gender and sexuality (and tact) but he did seem like he was trying to bond with him, in his own weird way, and Paul just seemed to be amused by it. 

*raises hand* I vote for Play Misty for Me! 

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

Who knew Method Man was such a good actor?

I did, I'm happy he's finally got a steady, high profile gig like this, he's been at it for a bit. IMO, comedians and rappers make for good actors. The really good ones, already have stage presence and great timing and both disciplines require frank honesty for success; well, the ones that I find successful have these skills in spades. That honesty and openness to reveal what's deep down in their guts lends itself to truly being able to portray a character well.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Gobi]

On 10/9/2017 at 7:17 PM, numbnut said:

To me, the actor playing Paul will always be the gum-chewing, cool-as-a-cucumber asshole from Terminus in The Walking Dead.

So that's what I knew him from.

 

Interesting that the two movie choices, Play Misty for Me and Straw Dogs, are both about sexually motivated violence.

[Bama]

And all I see when I see Paul is the Nazi/Accountant he played on "Banshee".

[Rinaldo]

9 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

IMO, comedians and rappers make for good actors.

Ellen Barkin agrees, In an interview relating to a movie she and Cliff "Method Man" Smith did, she says that she saw lots of rock/folk/etc. singers attempting acting and mostly not being very good at it, but all the rappers she's seen do it have turned out excellent.

On The Wire, it wasn't so easy to evaluate him as an actor, as the role required him mostly to be stoic and hard to read. I could at least see that he was taking it seriously, and sensibly keeping it simple. But as Rodney this week's scene showed him a force to be reckoned with. A David Simon series will occasionally build to certain scenes that become memorable in themselves (like a short play, as was said above). I recall maybe half a dozen from The Wire, and this one will certainly go on any list for The Deuce.

Edited October 11, 2017 by Rinaldo

[Milburn Stone]

On 10/9/2017 at 0:27 PM, Rinaldo said:

I'm recalling some of the commentary from David Simon when The Wire was made, that lots of rappers send word through "their people" that they might be willing to take a role if it were offered, but Method Man was the one who came in and auditioned like an actor, and wanted to discuss the character. I'd say he has proven his worth as an actor by now. I can't wait to see Cliff Smith's next big scene.

He blew me away in this episode. I don't know "Method Man" from "Shmethod Man"--for that matter, I don't know Cliff Smith from Shmiff Cliff--I just know that I love Rodney and his way with a line. With every line the writers give him. (And they're giving him some great ones.) I'm sitting at home going, "Who is this guy, and where has he been all my life?"

Edited October 11, 2017 by Milburn Stone

[numbnut]

3 hours ago, Bama said:

And all I see when I see Paul is the Nazi/Accountant he played on "Banshee".

He reminds me of Kevin Durand. They could easily play brothers.

[loki567]

I'm alright with Abby right now and I'm curious where they're going with her long-term. I hope it's something a little more than one more woman's descent into prostitution, although I can see a lot of similarities between her and Candy. It would be very David Simon-ish to show one getting in just as one is getting out. 

Arguably one of the worst things we seen in the show so far was Darlene trying to push one (if not all) of her friends into Larry's hands. That was fucked up.

The scene between Rudy, Vincent, and Black Frankie really brought home how weirdly diverse Vincent's entire group is. He's working with mobsters while employing black ex-vets, a gay bartender, his working stiff brother-in-law and deadbeat brother, and the '70s version of Hooter waitresses. 

[teddysmom]

Has David Crumholz really gained that much weight, or is that prosthetics?

[sistermagpie]

11 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

Has David Crumholz really gained that much weight, or is that prosthetics?

He gained weight, apparently in large part due to treatment for thyroid cancer. He's lost a lot of weight now.

[Moxie Cat]

Thanks so much for the Krumholtz info. He was always one of my favorites back in the day. I was a little worried to see him in this (once I recognized him!) Sad to read the reason why but hopeful that he is doing better.

Damn I love Abby's hair but as a person with similarly curly hair (albeit thinner and frizzier!), I know how much work can go into it!

[planet17]

I don't really get the Abby hate. Maybe for those not familiar with The Wire and how Simons tend to work, it might be a little strange. Thing is, Simons is building a world and showing it to us. And he tries to capture all the social layers of the story, and those layers are usually represented by the characters. Abby is one of the many "pieces of the puzzle" that provide us a "wider view" of the 70's and that context. She is another, and different, point of view. Through her, just for now, he's showing a more feminist point of view of the life of those women, and her thought and ideology usually contrast with how those women generally think. And also he's telling the story of a young woman, educated, rich, that dropped college to find some sort of independence.  Her path and her story can be seen as contrast to the other girls too. It's hard to tell if she'll end up in the sex business.  The season hasn't ended yet, but clearly they have a big plan for her and are setting something up.

In David Simons world, the characters are like cogs. They all fit the story and have a purpose in this whole "machine".

[dd21dd21]

On 10/10/2017 at 8:49 PM, Rinaldo said:

Ellen Barkin agrees, In an interview relating to a movie she and Cliff "Method Man" Smith did, she says that she saw lots of rock/folk/etc. singers attempting acting and mostly not being very good at it, but all the rappers she's seen do it have turned out excellent.

On The Wire, it wasn't so easy to evaluate him as an actor, as the role required him mostly to be stoic and hard to read. I could at least see that he was taking it seriously, and sensibly keeping it simple. But as Rodney this week's scene showed him a force to be reckoned with. A David Simon series will occasionally build to certain scenes that become memorable in themselves (like a short play, as was said above). I recall maybe half a dozen from The Wire, and this one will certainly go on any list for The Deuce.

didnt click the link so I have no idea if he was mentioned but DMX is another rapper who I always thought was a great actor

TONS of charisma

[Milburn Stone]

11 hours ago, planet17 said:

I don't really get the Abby hate. Maybe for those not familiar with The Wire and how Simons tend to work, it might be a little strange. Thing is, Simons is building a world and showing it to us. And he tries to capture all the social layers of the story, and those layers are usually represented by the characters. Abby is one of the many "pieces of the puzzle" that provide us a "wider view" of the 70's and that context. She is another, and different, point of view. Through her, just for now, he's showing a more feminist point of view of the life of those women, and her thought and ideology usually contrast with how those women generally think. And also he's telling the story of a young woman, educated, rich, that dropped college to find some sort of independence.  Her path and her story can be seen as contrast to the other girls too. It's hard to tell if she'll end up in the sex business.  The season hasn't ended yet, but clearly they have a big plan for her and are setting something up.

In David Simons world, the characters are like cogs. They all fit the story and have a purpose in this whole "machine".

Great post, and I agree with all of it. I'd only add one more quality to Abby's piece of the puzzle. Which is the arrogance of the privileged young educated (and sometimes, the not-so-young educated) to believe their ideology makes them more enlightened than others, more capable of knowing what's good for other people than those people know themselves. I don't mean to get down on Abby; I find a lot to like and admire about her. But that's one piece in the world-building Simon is doing.

[planet17]

14 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

Great post, and I agree with all of it. I'd only add one more quality to Abby's piece of the puzzle. Which is the arrogance of the privileged young educated (and sometimes, the not-so-young educated) to believe their ideology makes them more enlightened than others, more capable of knowing what's good for other people than those people know themselves. I don't mean to get down on Abby; I find a lot to like and admire about her. But that's one piece in the world-building Simon is doing.

I agree with you. Abby is a feminist. I mean, the way Candy handle her work for instance can be seen as feminist too, but Abby is portrayed as a feminist, someone that has the theoretical basis and engagement, unlike other characters. But at the end, that's it: Abby is someone with theoretical basis, but not the "real world" life experience. And she is strategically put at that place. She's not only a femist point of view of that world, but also a privileged one.

Abby is almost like those characters that serve as a point of view for the audience too. Basically all  the other characters that appear in that environment are people already used to that. They don't question that reality, they're part of it. Abby is that stranger that falls in that place and react to it. She's not used to the way the pimps treat the girls the same way the other characters are. And she reacts to it, question it, and wants to change it. In her own naive way.

Edited October 12, 2017 by planet17

[Milburn Stone]

21 minutes ago, planet17 said:

Abby is almost like those characters that serve as a point of view for the audience too.

Agree. I think we can safely say that a preponderance of the HBO audience goes into the show finding more in common with Abby than with any of the other characters. We'd like to give the prostitutes a bus ticket out of that life, if we could.

The amazing thing about Simon is his ability to start from there, and then one by one to make you able to see things through the eyes of all the other characters.

[sistermagpie]

14 hours ago, planet17 said:

I don't really get the Abby hate. Maybe for those not familiar with The Wire and how Simons tend to work, it might be a little strange. Thing is, Simons is building a world and showing it to us. And he tries to capture all the social layers of the story, and those layers are usually represented by the characters. Abby is one of the many "pieces of the puzzle" that provide us a "wider view" of the 70's and that context. She is another, and different, point of view. Through her, just for now, he's showing a more feminist point of view of the life of those women, and her thought and ideology usually contrast with how those women generally think. And also he's telling the story of a young woman, educated, rich, that dropped college to find some sort of independence.  Her path and her story can be seen as contrast to the other girls too. It's hard to tell if she'll end up in the sex business.  The season hasn't ended yet, but clearly they have a big plan for her and are setting something up.

 

Just speaking for myself I can see very clearly what she's there to do, she just doesn't do it as smoothly or as well with the other characters. She feels like she's there to provide a wider, different, feminist pov who's a rich college drop out without feeling to me (subjectively, of course) like a person who happens to be those things. She also feels like she's there to be a pov character for the audience--which is why she feels like something the network would think was needed. 

I'm not against Abby on principle--I believe the character Vincent's based on might even have had exactly this kind of girlfriend, a college drop out girl who was dating him. I believe that girl exists. I believe in her more than Abby. And while I definitely have more in common with her than most of the other characters in terms, I don't actually ever identify with her at all. She's seems to smug and cool to identify with and too cool even when she's doing things that are objectively very very naive.

(Also, bringing up The Wire just makes me note that that show didn't feel the need for anybody like Abby.)

[planet17]

6 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Agree. I think we can safely say that a preponderance of the HBO audience goes into the show finding more in common with Abby than with any of the other characters. We'd like to give the prostitutes a bus ticket out of that life, if we could.

The amazing thing about Simon is his ability to start from there, and then one by one to make you able to see things through the eyes of all the other characters.

That's exactly it.  Abby is not the character that introduce us to that world. But her feelings reflect the audience's too. Not only her desire to give the girls a "better life", but also how she's intrigued about why those girls are in this life. It's through her that we see that kind of thing. She is the "outside vision".

 

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

(Also, bringing up The Wire just makes me note that that show didn't feel the need for anybody like Abby.)

I disagree. I feel like all the characters from The Wire are like Abby, in a sense that all of them provide a different point of view. They're like the "pieces of the puzzle", as I mentioned above.

Now if you're talking about Abby as a point of view for the audience, The Wire also had them. Neither The Deuce or The Wire had a character to introduce us to that world, but The Wire certainly had characters reflecting the audience's feelings towards the drug business, same way Abby is there for the sex business.

 

Edit: Bringing up The Wire, when I saw Vince repeatedly saying "The fuck do I know?", it reminded me of McNulty's classic "What the fuck did I do?"

Oh, and there was also a guy saying "sh-eee-t".

Edited October 12, 2017 by planet17

[sistermagpie]

Just now, planet17 said:

Now if you're talking about Abby as a point of view for the audience, The Wire also had them. Neither The Deuce or The Wire had a character to introduce us to that world, but The Wire certainly had characters reflecting the audience's feelings towards the drug business, same way Abby is there for the sex business.

Agree to disagree because I can't think of anybody on The Wire who was as much of a tourist character as Abby is. Seems like if they wanted someone to learn the ropes they'd use somebody like Prez who was a beginner rather than really an outsider. Abby rarely if ever reflects my feelings towards these characters. Trouble is her feelings towards these people as a character in herself to ring true to me either, especially compared to the other characters. As I said, on paper I think Abby could work--I don't find it unbelievable at all that a naive, pampered girl could drop out of college and wind up in this world. As presented she doesn't come across as that to me.

[planet17]

26 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Agree to disagree because I can't think of anybody on The Wire who was as much of a tourist character as Abby is. 

Because the similarities between The Wire and The Deuce are in terms of structure, but they're telling completely different stories with different themes, hence different needs. The Wire was about the drug business and had a context of war where there were two sides. Even tho Simons explored the multiple sides of the police and drug dealers, there were two major sides opposing each other. So there wasn't a need of an outsider. And The Wire had many characters that, just like Abby, reflect the audience feelings, questioning that environment and life style. In Season 1 for instance we had D'Angelo and Wallace. Just to name a few.

In The Deuce there isn't opposing sides. They're all inside that system and all used to that. In the story about the sex business that Simons is telling right now, Abby is the outside vision that Simons needed. And she provide us different perspectives too, as you also recognized.

I understand now that you don't like her and why. But she is pretty much a David Simons character to me, and she works well.

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, planet17 said:

Because the similarities between The Wire and The Deuce are in terms of structure, but they're telling completely different stories with different themes, hence different needs.

I honestly don't see the need for an outsider like Abby on the show. There's nothing to me about the porn industry that requires an outsider any more than drug dealing did. So far the story doesn't seem to cry out for a character like Abby. Not that a character can't just exist to add to the world-building, but Abby's obviously getting a major spotlight.

 

1 minute ago, planet17 said:

So there wasn't a need of an outsider. And The Wire had many characters that, just like Abby, reflect the audience feelings, questioning that environment and life style. In Season 1 for instance we had D'Angelo and Wallace. Just to name a few.

Sure, because any character can question the environment. You don't need to be an outsider who can't even imagine why anyone would be in it, after all. Any one of the characters on the show could be used to question it--Candy/Eileen already is, it seems. There's also a reporter questioning it as an outsider who for me works much more as a character than Abby does. So it's not like if we didn't have Abby we'd have no one to question what these people were doing. We even just got Bernice newly arrived to walk us through being a newcomer, one who might be starting off less innocent than the other girl just off the bus.

Again, I'm fine with Abby on paper. But so far none of her scenes as written or performed have worked for me. And some, like Abby going to the college party and being so over it etc., make me roll my eyes as much as Abby does in that scene. Being too cool for your bourgeois friends doesn't seem like something I really need to follow the story of the porn industry, even if (and I have no idea if the story's going there at all) Abby winds up getting herself into it.

But she's not going to drive me from the show or anything. For all I know all this will turn out to be totally important and it'll lead to something great. But right now whenever there's an Abby scene it pulls me out of the story.

[tennisgurl]

I like Abbey well enough. As others have said, she serves as another POV character in the story of sex work. We have the pimps, the hookers, the cops, the mob, the bar scene, the gay scene, the journalists, the politicians, and the college kids who consider themselves...what was the 70s version of Woke? They consider themselves that. Its all parts of the greater machine. Abbey isn't my favorite character, but I do like seeing her reactions to the world of sex workers, and how that conflicts with her ideas of feminist theory.

4 hours ago, planet17 said:

Oh, and there was also a guy saying "sh-eee-t".

I caught that too! Maybe this whole thing is actually a spin off? The Simon Cinematic Universe? Or, I guess, TV universe? 

[planet17]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

I like Abbey well enough. As others have said, she serves as another POV character in the story of sex work. We have the pimps, the hookers, the cops, the mob, the bar scene, the gay scene, the journalists, the politicians, and the college kids who consider themselves...what was the 70s version of Woke? They consider themselves that. Its all parts of the greater machine. Abbey isn't my favorite character, but I do like seeing her reactions to the world of sex workers, and how that conflicts with her ideas of feminist theory.

And she's not only a POV. She gets a lot of spotlight, and we've been watching her journey unlike many other characters. She seems like a big character. Simons is clearly setting something up for her, but patience is required because Simons is not the kind that hurry things up.

Every season of The Wire worked sort of like a novel. You had to finish the whole season to understand it. I remember that I was so confused at the first half of season 1. There were so many characters, so much information, so many things to keep track of. It was in the second half that I was actually hooked and when I finished it, I was like "Damn, this was brilliant". If The Deuce is really like The Wire, you just have to be patient.

[pasdetrois]

On 10/9/2017 at 9:51 AM, numbnut said:

The twin thing is grating on my nerves. Just as I feared, Franco plays Frankie as a loud caricature in order to stand apart from Vinnie.

I still cannot appreciate Franco in this series. He's trying too hard to be NYC cool and edgy, and his character's relationship with a young college woman bugs me. Seems like an executive producer's vanity.

The scene with Candy and Rodney was sublime. In fact, the actors playing the pimps, police and prostitutes are stealing the show.

Is the actress playing Darlene the daughter of Laurence Fishburne?

 

 

 

 

 

 

h

[sistermagpie]

16 minutes ago, pasdetrois said:

Is the actress playing Darlene the daughter of Laurence Fishburne?

I believe her name is Fishback not Fishburne. 

[Milburn Stone]

1 hour ago, pasdetrois said:

I still cannot appreciate Franco in this series.

Franco, because he's such a known quantity, can't quite convince us that he's these guys like all the other actors can. But I don't know that this is a bad thing. What he brings instead is a certain amount of star quality that's useful in magnetizing the story. I may not completely "buy" him like I buy all the others, but I find him charismatically fascinating to watch. And he is succeeding in making me care a whole lot about what happens to Vince. Every scene he has with the mob guys, I'm like, "Don't get involved with them, oh shit, this is not a good idea!" I wouldn't be so nervous if he weren't making me care...

Edited October 13, 2017 by Milburn Stone

[Gobi]

I like Franco as Vince in this. My only problem is that, so far, I haven't seen any real need for the twin brother to be in the show. 

[pasdetrois]

Quote

What he brings instead is a certain amount of star quality that's useful in magnetizing the story.

He does have tremendous charisma on the screen. His Saul Silver in "Pineapple Express" is a delight every time I catch the movie. He nailed that character (I knew guys like Saul in my early adulthood.)

[MrWhyt]

On 10/13/2017 at 0:30 PM, Gobi said:

I like Franco as Vince in this. My only problem is that, so far, I haven't seen any real need for the twin brother to be in the show. 

I don't mind Franco in this but i also don't see why the brothers have to be identical twins, surely the classic "one brother is a screw up the other one has it together" story can be told with a little less obviousness.