S01.E04: I See Money

[Drogo]

Rudy dangles an offer in front of Vincent; Longo employs strong-arm tactics to restore order among Bobby's unhappy construction workers; Candy attracts unwanted attention and is intrigued by a legitimate suitor; Paul questions his place at the Hi-Hat; Frankie hits a hot streak; Darlene gets a gift from Abby; Alston sees through Sandra; Vincent hires a Vietnam vet for protection following a police shakedown.

[Primetimer]

A dead trick and theater rat push Candy to the brink.

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[Drogo]

I like how Bobby acts so surprised that mob bosses do mob-bossy things. 

[Rinaldo]

This was sort of a wake-up, though, for Bobby and Vincent -- these aren't just the thoughtful guys with money who'll finance your schemes, they're bad dudes to be in business with, and yet here they are.

I'm excessively obsessed with Candy's apartment building. It looks too nice and modern to be affordable for her; I could believe it in other big cities, a mile or two away from the action, but not in Manhattan. And yet they're filming on location, so it must be there somewhere. Does anybody know its location?

Nice that Paul has a boyfriend, even if a closeted and nervous one (but then, that was life for gay men in high-pressure professions at that date). However, the end of that scene was a missed opportunity for the show to redress the M/F nudity imbalance! Paul could have gotten out of bed without it being sexual.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Rinaldo

[Joimiaroxeu]

Needle-nose pliers. Yikes. And I'm not sure she was joking.

Did we just watch Candy invent the GFE?

[EtheltoTillie]

3 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

 

I'm excessively obsessed with Candy's apartment building. It looks too nice and modern to be affordable for her; I could believe it in other big cities, a mile or two away from the action, but not in Manhattan. And yet they're filming on location, so it must be there somewhere. Does anybody know its location?

 

I have thought about this.  I knew it would draw questions.  This building looks like dozens of postwar buildings on the Upper East Side of Manhattan that were refuge to many single women back in those days.  These are big buildings with a lot of small apartments.  It was quite affordable to rent such an apartment in the early 70s.  Manhattan was not the draw it became later.  Many people fled Manhattan for the suburbs in the 60s. 

She seems to have just a studio.  In those days the rent was likely under $200, something she might make in one or two nights.  Even women who worked regular office jobs made enough to afford these apartments.  (Those women, aging now, still live in these apartments if they have remained single under rent-stabilized leases that remain affordable.)  It's hard to explain to those who only know NYC now. 

Edited October 2, 2017 by GussieK

[BingeyKohan]

With its circular drive i first thought Eileen/Candy's building was The Breevort in the Village but looking at both entries that can't be right because the Breevort doesn't have columns (and they would have had to CGI away the building name). I bet some eagle-eyed New Yorker, though, can identify it. I think there's a building in Prospect Heights, BK, too, that has that kind of driveway in front.

I was a little unclear on what type of oasis the mobsters had in mind when they were showing Vinnie the new space at the end. I thought they were angling to get into the porn theater business, but even a rat-less one doesn't seem like it ever would have been a luxurious space, qualified to be considered some kind of haven. Are they working some other type of angle? 

[Rinaldo]

15 minutes ago, BingeyKohan said:

I was a little unclear on what type of oasis the mobsters had in mind when they were showing Vinnie the new space at the end.

I dare say we all are -- and not just a little. It's by design: They haven't told him or us yet.

Thank you, @GussieK. The Upper East Side is probably the part of the borough that I know the least, and the whole history of rent in NYC (relative to elsewhere) probably remains eternally confusing to outsiders. Your information clears up a lot for me.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Rinaldo

[DiabLOL]

1 hour ago, GussieK said:

I have thought about this.  I knew it would draw questions.  This building looks like dozens of postwar buildings on the Upper East Side of Manhattan that were refuge to many single women back in those days.  These are big buildings with a lot of small apartments.  It was quite affordable to rent such an apartment in the early 70s.  Manhattan was not the draw it became later.  Many people fled Manhattan for the suburbs in the 60s. 

She seems to have just a studio.  In those days the rent was likely under $200, something she might make in one or two nights.  Even women who worked regular office jobs made enough to afford these apartments.  (Those women, aging now, still live in these apartments if they have remained single under rent-stabilized leases that remain affordable.)  It's hard to explain to those who only know NYC now. 

Do you mean women only residences?

[numbnut]

5 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

I'm excessively obsessed with Candy's apartment building. It looks too nice and modern to be affordable for her; I could believe it in other big cities, a mile or two away from the action, but not in Manhattan. And yet they're filming on location, so it must be there somewhere. Does anybody know its location?

Did they establish that Candy lives in Manhattan? Her building looks a lot like my uncle's apartment building in Queens.

[EtheltoTillie]

7 minutes ago, DiabLOL said:

Do you mean women only residences?

No, it's just that a lot of young single women would live in such places.  And if there was a doorman, it would feel safer. 

2 minutes ago, numbnut said:

Did they establish that Candy lives in Manhattan? Her building looks a lot like my uncle's apartment building in Queens.

No, they haven't.  I'm just guessing.  It also looks like many buildings in Brooklyn and Queens.  Her mother's house looks like something in Brooklyn or Queens.  But Candy likely moved to Manhattan to be closer to her work location. 

I am now the official NYC anthropologist.  . . . LOL .

Edited October 2, 2017 by GussieK

[Rinaldo]

Yes, if I'd thought Candy lived in another borough, I wouldn't have asked my question; such a building looks quite unremarkable for Brooklyn or Queens (allowing, as always, for my inexpert foreigner's perspective). But the circumstances of her getting a place closer to work than her parents' house, and now of a date dropping her off there without interborough fuss, do suggest Manhattan -- just an area I hadn't seen. (Her giving him a phone number without area code is no help in detection, as until 1984 "212" served all five boroughs.)

[LoveLeigh]

1 hour ago, GussieK said:

I am now the official NYC anthropologist.  . . . LOL .

I think you mean architect or archaeologist, lol. 

In 1971, a studio was about $250. a month. 

I think Vincent's wife on this show looks like she is 19 years old. ETA: THAT's Zoe Kazan? She is 34 and unrecognizable. 

I have a question.... why were they all clapping for Candy at the end? What did I miss? The GFE? Huh? 

Edited October 2, 2017 by DakotaLavender
ETA

[Traveller519]

I like how there doesn't really feel like there are any rooting interests to shake out of the show. All the characters have things that make them redeemable and things that make them frustrating. While Vincent and Candy are mostly our protagonists they're not infallible people either. And while the Pimps and Mob Bosses are ruthless, they're not evil incarnate.

Ashley is going to snap at some point I can just tell. There's no love lost between her and CC, and her disdain for Lori is palable

[Rinaldo]

11 minutes ago, DakotaLavender said:

I have a question.... why were they all clapping for Candy at the end?

It comes out of the conversation they'd been having before she showed up, the trick who died while being serviced. An ironic "All Hail the Giver of Fatal Blowjobs." Not very nice, but then they're not a nice bunch.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Rinaldo

[thuganomics85]

Took me a while to place Will Chase as Jack/the guy Candy went on an actual date with.  I only know him from Nashville, so I wasn't use to him without a cowboy hat!  Between the "theater" work and someone literally dying on her, I really wouldn't be surprised if this season ends with Candy getting out of the game somehow.

I like the scenes between Vincent and Paul and the willingness to make Vincent say and do some questionable things (saying Paul smokes the same cigarettes his mom does, casually using a gay slur), but he is open-minded and doesn't think there is anything wrong with it.  He's just a product of his time, but hopefully he's someone who will actually grow from it.

Still not wild about the mobster stuff, but hopefully the payoff will be worth it.

Continuing to enjoy the budding friendship between Darlene and Abby, although the more Larry/Darlene's pimp glares at them, the more I get concerned.

The scene where the cop thought he was going on a date with the reporter, only for it to be a stakeout, was hilarious.  Lawrence Gilliard Jr.'s facial reactions were perfect.

[EtheltoTillie]

1 hour ago, DakotaLavender said:

I think Vincent's wife on this show looks like she is 19 years old. ETA: THAT's Zoe Kazan? She is 34 and unrecognizable. 

 

 

Department of Hairsplitters:  I had a beef with Zoe Kazan's dialogue.  "let's load up the Mercury and head to Coney."  Sorry, no one would say "load up the Mercury," unless she was distinguishing it from one of her other cars.  So it was just an irritating way to have her mention a vintage car brand.  And sorry, New Yorkers don't say Coney.  They say Coney Island.  I have never heard anyone say Coney in real life.  Plus her accent is all wrong.  She says Fulton Fish Mahket in a Boston accent.  The real accent would be more like Mawket, but the W would be almost silent.  Hard to represent phonetically. 

And what was up with that cop's reference to the shoes?  My shoes gave me away?  Yeah, no hooker would wear Bonwit Teller.  Saks, maybe, but not Bonwit Teller.  Well, this just comes from Mars, folks.  Yes, Bonwit Teller was a high-end department store (long out of business), but it's not as if it was more upscale than Saks Fifth Avenue.  And the shoes would not have a defining characteristic of the store where they were purchased so that the cop would know it.  Come on.  Another irritating way to throw in a vintage cultural reference.   Boo, writers. 

Edited October 2, 2017 by GussieK

[Rinaldo]

I might accept most of that -- I must, as I'm 2 states away -- but some families do say things like "load up the Mercury," foreign as it seems to me too. I've heard it, and I heard it back then, so it's risky to say "no one would say it." My own beef with TV and movie writers has long been that housewives always seem to talk about "going to the market," which I have never in my life heard an actual person say; yet people must say it somewhere, because it keeps getting written.

I'm now waiting for a reference to Klein's.

[EtheltoTillie]

9 minutes ago, Rinaldo said:

I might accept most of that -- I must, as I'm 2 states away -- but some families do say things like "load up the Mercury," foreign as it seems to me too. I've heard it, and I heard it back then, so it's risky to say "no one would say it." My own beef with TV and movie writers has long been that housewives always seem to talk about "going to the market," which I have never in my life heard an actual person say; yet people must say it somewhere, because it keeps getting written.

I'm now waiting for a reference to Klein's.

In NYC we would say going to the store (pronounced "staw").  Maybe supermarket.  But not market. 

Klein's, Alexander's, Korvette's and Mays.  Let's hope! 

[EtheltoTillie]

I just thought of something helpful.  You know how New Yorkers would pronounce "market"?  Think of the way Edith Bunker says "Archie." 

[meep.meep]

4 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

Yes, if I'd thought Candy lived in another borough, I wouldn't have asked my question; such a building looks quite unremarkable for Brooklyn or Queens (allowing, as always, for my inexpert foreigner's perspective). But the circumstances of her getting a place closer to work than her parents' house, and now of a date dropping her off there without interborough fuss, do suggest Manhattan -- just an area I hadn't seen. (Her giving him a phone number without area code is no help in detection, as until 1984 "212" served all five boroughs.)

I don't think the building where the date dropped Candy was where she actually lives.  She just went in the front door and then out the back.  Her building is a lot more rundown.

I liked the conversation that she had with Ruby (?) after the guy died.  And "you like movies?" calls back to Darlene's john and Candy's interest in the picture business.

[EtheltoTillie]

24 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

I don't think the building where the date dropped Candy was where she actually lives.  She just went in the front door and then out the back.  Her building is a lot more rundown.

This may be right, on second thought.  But for some reason I thought they had shown the exterior of the apartment on a previous episode.  It would make sense that she would not give that guy her real address. 

[Drogo]

They showed her walking home in the pilot, I don't remember the specifics of the building but it was definitely not rundown. 

[EtheltoTillie]

Yes, minute 31 of the pilot.  The exterior is shown. 

[planet17]

That ending scene was quite amazing. Althogh I felt bad for Candy, I have to admit I laughed when they started to clap for her fatal blowjob. She had bad days lately with her trades.

Also, I'm quite interested in Sandra and Paul and I'm glad we got to see more of them. Particularly Paul. I truly hope they can explore LGBT issues through him. And speaking of which, I hope the lesbian couple don't get in trouble, although I think they will.

I don't care much about the mob part, but I understand it's part of the world Simons is building.

Hope to see more of Darlene soon.

[DiabLOL]

I really appreciated how Abby stepped up immediately after Darlene called her out.

I'm too am worried about the way her pimp is glaring at them. I hope she goes to live with her aunt. 

[Rinaldo]

1 hour ago, Drogo said:

They showed her walking home in the pilot, I don't remember the specifics of the building but it was definitely not rundown. 

Yes, we've seen it before. In case there's confusion, this is a whole separate place from the fleabag by-the-hour rooms where she takes her customers on the Deuce. Her studio apartment is cheaply and minimally furnished, but the building and the rooms themselves aren't rundown.

[Gobi]

10 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Needle-nose pliers. Yikes. And I'm not sure she was joking.

Did we just watch Candy invent the GFE?

I probably shouldn't ask, but what is the GFE?

[sheetmoss]

11 hours ago, BingeyKohan said:

 

I was a little unclear on what type of oasis the mobsters had in mind when they were showing Vinnie the new space at the end. I thought they were angling to get into the porn theater business, but even a rat-less one doesn't seem like it ever would have been a luxurious space, qualified to be considered some kind of haven. Are they working some other type of angle? 

I know it's a few yrs too soon, but I wonder if the space will be Studio 54-ish?

Edited October 3, 2017 by sheetmoss

[DiabLOL]

3 hours ago, Gobi said:

I probably shouldn't ask, but what is the GFE?

GFE="Girl Friend Experience"

[LoveLeigh]

nm, found the answer

Edited October 3, 2017 by DakotaLavender

[Milburn Stone]

What really came home to me in this episode was that it gave the lie to the cliché that "we're all prostitutes." Sure, all of us work for someone else, and all of us in our lives have done things for money (or to ensure the continued flow of money) that we wouldn't have done otherwise. And this show is good at showing us that. But this show also has the courage to show us that no, when it comes to prostitution, the "prostitution" that the rest of us practice is only a metaphor. Only prostitutes are prostitutes. Only they are the ones at the very bottom of the food chain, the lowest of the low, performing unspeakable acts of depravity for money. The show humanizes them but nevertheless has the courage to show us that they are a thing apart, that they are not like us, that the choices they make are not comparable to the choices we've made. That when freelance writers or bankers or baristas or Uber drivers or lawyers self-flagellatingly accuse themselves of prostitution, the prostitute has every right to reply, "Bitch, please."

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

I know it's a few yrs too soon, but I wonder if the space will be Studio 54-ish?

That's what I was wondering too. Was the mob known to have been involved in something Studio 54-ish? Beyond their usual involvement in bars and clubs, that is.

[msrachelj]

19 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

I think you mean architect or archaeologist, lol. 

In 1971, a studio was about $250. a month. 

I think Vincent's wife on this show looks like she is 19 years old. ETA: THAT's Zoe Kazan? She is 34 and unrecognizable. 

I have a question.... why were they all clapping for Candy at the end? What did I miss? The GFE? Huh? 

i also thought his wife looks like a teen. 

[SarcasticNerd17]

OK, so the first episode was a little slow, but now I am hooked! I thought this was a strong episode...

Are we supposed to know who Nikki is ? When Candy was sitting with the other woman, with the suede jacket on, I thought she said "Never saw Nikki without her suede." I assume it is one of the girls who either died or left the life. Hopefully we will get more of the backstory as the journalist is more involved. How many episodes will there be this season? I am a little surprised that at this point, the reporter isn't more involved than she is...

 

I was happy for Eileen that the guy actually called, but felt bad for her when she went on the date. You could see that she just couldn't separate her two worlds :(

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, msrachelj said:

i also thought his wife looks like a teen. 

When I see him interacting with them it always seems like Abby should be some girl he went to high school with and with whom he's now reconnecting after she's gotten an education etc., and his wife (forgot her name) is his current too-young girlfriend he obviously doesn't have much in common with. (Though the two actresses are only a couple of years apart in age.)

[Gobi]

2 hours ago, SarcasticNerd17 said:

OK, so the first episode was a little slow, but now I am hooked! I thought this was a strong episode...

Are we supposed to know who Nikki is ? When Candy was sitting with the other woman, with the suede jacket on, I thought she said "Never saw Nikki without her suede." I assume it is one of the girls who either died or left the life. Hopefully we will get more of the backstory as the journalist is more involved. How many episodes will there be this season? I am a little surprised that at this point, the reporter isn't more involved than she is...

 

I was happy for Eileen that the guy actually called, but felt bad for her when she went on the date. You could see that she just couldn't separate her two worlds :(

My impression was that Nikki was a prostitute who had died at some time before the show began.

[TimWil]

They seemed to indicate that she had died the previous summer. Maybe suicide? Maybe murdered?

 

As for nobody saying “Coney” rather than Coney Island I can’t help but think of that radio DJ in the film The Warriors who used the term “Coney,” not “Coney Island.” Maybe it was right for the period pre 1980?

[MCMLXXVII]

7 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

That's what I was wondering too. Was the mob known to have been involved in something Studio 54-ish? Beyond their usual involvement in bars and clubs, that is.

Since the show is all about the changes in the sex industry, I was thinking maybe a Plato's Retreat (swinger's club) type of deal, but Wikipedia tells me that it didn't open until 1977. 

[txhorns79]

I give Maggie Gyllenhaal credit.  You can tell just by looking at her during the show that Candy is very tired, and wants so much to be somewhere else.  Though I was surprised she didn't have a legitimate sounding backstory ready for her date where she claimed to be a secretary or some other normal sounding job. 

I'm also not entirely sure why I'm supposed to care about the bartender's relationship with his boyfriend.  Those scenes felt rather random to me.  I feel like they keep adding more and more characters and it's difficult to keep track of everyone. 

[Keepitmoving]

On 10/2/2017 at 9:08 PM, DiabLOL said:

I really appreciated how Abby stepped up immediately after Darlene called her out.

I'm too am worried about the way her pimp is glaring at them. I hope she goes to live with her aunt. 

I think Darlene is going to take that ticket, go down south, and recruit another sex worker. I think I saw a new young face of color talking about her to the other sex workers in the preview. Actually, I think like the actress who plays Darlene, she too is from the movie Show Me a Hero. David Simon is great, the actress who plays the reporter/writer is also from SMAH. I think he has a bunch of alumnae from his shows on here. 

[txhorns79]

Here's a question.  If Candy is close in age to Maggie Gyllenhaal, she's pushing 40 and I think has mentioned having been in this business since she was at least in her early 20s or as a teenager.  Despite this, Candy appears to be a pretty successful hooker (at least in that she has access to fancy gadgets like answering machines and lives in a nice studio apartment).  Would it be realistic for someone Candy's age to still be pulling in that kind of money?   

[tennisgurl]

Candy just looks so tired and worn out all the time. Not that she doesn't look good, because she does, but she is so clearly over this. It, again, makes me wonder what her deal is. How did she end up here? She has a more upper class background and still talks to her mom, so what happened? 

I like Darlene and Abby's early friendship a lot, and it was a nice answer to the reporter and the cop wondering why women do this job. Everyone has their reasons. Also, the cop realizing that this is a stake out, not a date, was hilarious. 

I like that we are getting more of Paul and his  closeted boyfriend, and Paul's scenes with Vincent are really good. While Vincent said some stuff that is causally homophobic/transphobic, he IS a working class guy from the 70s, and he is clearly an open minded guy who couldn't care less about peoples sexuality, he just wants people to have fun in his bar. The more nasty things he said seemed more out of not knowing than anything else, and he likes Paul and really doesn't care that he`s gay. Its a nice character trait, even as he has other pretty noticeable personality flaws. 

[Rinaldo]

4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

While Vincent said some stuff that is causally homophobic/transphobic

And it's worth remembering that both those terms would have been essentially unrecognizable at the time. I was coming to terms with being gay in the very year the show depicts, and I don't think I encountered the word "homophobic" until 1974 or so. And it's hard to recall such a different world without distortion, but terms like "fag" were used casually and without malice at the time (by gay people too), among friends, and to show you were hip, and cool with it all. (Think of the original lyric from Sondheim's Company.) I remember the conversations.

On 10/3/2017 at 8:49 PM, txhorns79 said:

I'm also not entirely sure why I'm supposed to care about the bartender's relationship with his boyfriend.  Those scenes felt rather random to me.  I feel like they keep adding more and more characters and it's difficult to keep track of everyone.

I can only say (in an encouraging tone, not a sarcastic one) "Get used to it." I'm sure we'll keep expanding this world and seeing more and more new characters. It never occurred to me not to care about Paul and his boyfriend; I had enjoyed the little we' d seen of him as a bartender, but I wanted to know what his life was like at that moment in gay history. And now we're getting exactly that.

Another new character as of this episode was the young "serious" actor (he mentioned Stanislavsky, I think) who is turning to blue movies -- I presume because no legit roles are coming his way and he needs an income, but we only got a couple of lines from him while drinking at Vinnie's bar. We'll get more, I bet.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Rinaldo

[tennisgurl]

1 minute ago, Rinaldo said:

I can only say (in an encouraging tone, not a sarcastic one) "Get used to it." I'm sure we'll keep expanding this world and seeing more and more new characters.

Yep, that is what we are going to get more of. In a Simon series, you start the show with about 1000 characters, and they keep adding more and more until the show ends and they have a cast of millions. By the end of The Wire, I`m pretty sure the entire population of Baltimore were characters. I thought that I might be a character in The Wire a few times. 

[Gobi]

13 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Yep, that is what we are going to get more of. In a Simon series, you start the show with about 1000 characters, and they keep adding more and more until the show ends and they have a cast of millions. By the end of The Wire, I`m pretty sure the entire population of Baltimore were characters. I thought that I might be a character in The Wire a few times. 

One of the things I loved about The Wire, and expect to love in this. I find it more  realistic to have  a large cast to show how things happen, rather than a small number to whom an inordinate amount of events happens.

[planet17]

23 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

You can tell just by looking at her during the show that Candy is very tired, and wants so much to be somewhere else.

I didn't get the vibe that she was "tired", for me this episode was just showing her having bad luck. I mean, it starts when it's raining a lot and she complains there is no trade, so she goes to the movies. There, there is the "rat incident". Then she tries to seduce one guy at the street, but  he looks intimidating and, as she said, she has no pimp so she needs to be extra careful. Then a guy dies when she is blowing him, which is very disturbing. Plus, I feel like she was already down since that guy refused to work with her in the movie business, something she was so excited about.

There is also her date. I need to put more thought into that, but I think it was interesting. She is a prostitute so for her it's almost impossible to find a man who'd accept that. I think she wanted to experience something different. And I think there are a few interesting stuff about her date with him. Although she introduces herself as Eileen, she still feels the need to play a character for him. And her date with him was kind of the opposite of what her dates with her clients are usually like. While she doesn't allow her clients to kiss her, she only kissed that guy but didn't go further. I think what she was looking for in that date was some sort of pleasure and satisfaction that she doesn't get with her clients.

Anyway, I need to put more thoughts into the Eileen/Candy thing. It's interesting. 

Edited October 5, 2017 by planet17

[Surrealist]

On 10/3/2017 at 0:32 AM, sheetmoss said:

I know it's a few yrs too soon, but I wonder if the space will be Studio 54-ish?

I'm glad I wasn't the only thinking this because I think it will be a sort of prototype of 54.

The characters I'm most interested in, at this point, are Darlene, Paul, Eileen (Candy), and Sandra (the Amsterdam News writer).

Edited October 5, 2017 by Surrealist

[Rinaldo]

If I'm not old enough at 70, I wonder what would be old enough.

[Rinaldo]

1 hour ago, Milburn Stone said:

That's very close to the currently trendy formulation of "driving while black," etc.

It may be currently used a lot, but I've been hearing it for decades. So Paul's line doesn't seem out of place, especially if we grant scripted characters the right to be a bit pithier and wittier than real-life people usually manage to be.