S07.E07: The Dragon And The Wolf

[Pogojoco]

1 hour ago, LanceM said:

I believe this is on purpose. She is wearing it like Drogo. Just as she does in the books until it gets burned off in ADWD.

 

I miss that beautiful man. 

[MissLucas]

3 minutes ago, Pogojoco said:

It's not pearl clutching, it's feeling bad for a situation that probably isn't going to end well. 

Yes, two people committing incest without knowing is normally a damn sure sign we're heading towards something tragic (s. Turin and Nienor). The tragedy here might not be the taboo on incest itself but that the two persons involved did not know about it. We can stipulate that Daenery might be okay with it because she once expected to marry her brother but that was ages ago. As for Jon: no way he'll be okay with bedding his aunt even without the Iron Throne thrown in as additional baggage.

[Pogojoco]

1 minute ago, MissLucas said:

Yes, two people committing incest without knowing is normally a damn sure sign we're heading towards something tragic (s. Turin and Nienor). The tragedy here might not be the taboo on incest itself but that the two persons involved did not know about it. We can stipulate that Daenery might be okay with it because she once expected to marry her brother but that was ages ago. As for Jon: no way he'll be okay with bedding his aunt even without the Iron Throne thrown in as additional baggage.

Oedipus and Jocasta is another one. Eye gouging, man. Jocasta hanged herself. There was plague! 

And yeah, I suspect this information (or rather, it should, but who knows with these writers?) will change the game plan of both characters. Dany has been driven to sitting on the Iron Throne because she believes she is the heir. She might also have issues with the incest, but the new claimant is going to be the bigger one. Jon thinking he's Ned Stark's bastard all his life and finding out that 1. He's a Targ 2. Has slept with his aunt, is probably going to throw him. Add in the "heir to the Iron Throne" bit. 

[GraceK]

I just really want to see Jon ride Rhaegar into battle with Dany next to him on Drogon. 

The idea of having a bond with a actual Dragon AND Direwolf just too awesome:)

Edited August 29, 2017 by GraceK

[peggy06]

22 hours ago, stagmania said:

So that sex scene was a total romance fail, but I think it's still fairly obvious that Daenerys is going to get pregnant. Which seems to suggest one of Jon's big torments next season will be finding out and then having to choose between marrying his aunt or letting his child be born a bastard, on top of dealing with his feelings about his true parents and claim to the throne. And Daenerys will of course fiercely protect the baby she never thought she could have, and be wary of Jon trying to take the throne. So this may actually be a set up for them to be working together but not trusting/feeling comfortable with each other as they fight off the Night King.

That could actually be interesting. Whereas straight-up couples in love can be really boring. 

Quote

 

 22 HOURS AGO, AMERS SAID:

I don't understand Tyrion at the end. Is he jealous? Unhappy? 

 

Yeah, he's unhappy because something went down between him and Cersei after he figured out she was pregnant. Maybe he betrayed Dany in some way, and he's feeling guilty. Or maybe he is having qualms about his niece/nephew-to-be getting killed by his team. IDK, but al that talk about Myrcella and Tommen wasn't in there for nothing.

Edited August 29, 2017 by peggy06

[peggy06]

NVM, duplicate post.

Edited August 29, 2017 by peggy06
Merge with previous post

[Blonde Gator]

5 hours ago, Macbeth said:

                                                                          MISSING

 

NAME                                                       LAST SEEN                     POSSIBLE WHEREABOUTS  

GHOST                                                      SEASON 6                     WINTERFELL, CASTLE BLACK

 

                                                          IF  FOUND PLEASE CONTACT        

                                                                 HIS LEGIONS OF FANS

Ghost (real name Quigley) is in Alberta, Canada.  He's looking forward to seeing his legion of fans next season. 

[GraceK]

20 minutes ago, peggy06 said:

That could actually be interesting. Whereas straight-up couples in love can be really boring. 

Yeah, he's unhappy because something went down between him and Cersei after he figured out she was pregnant. Maybe he betrayed Dany in some way, and he's feeling guilty. Or maybe he is having qualms about his niece/nephew-to-be getting killed by his team. IDK, but al that talk about Myrcella and Tommen wasn't in there for nothing.

That's what makes me nervous. Also him admitting he's been trying to protect his family. If he truly feels guilty for Myrcellas death, he might try to protect Cerseis unborn child and betray Dany and Jon. Who knows, it gives me a bad feeling :( 

[tennisgurl]

I imagine that, once the shock has worn off, Dany might be alright with boning her hot nephew (well, I was supposed to marry my asshole brother at some point...) while I cant imagine Jon would be ok with this at all. I`m imaging his reaction being something like "Ewwwwwww Ewwwwwww Gross Gross Fucking gross!" and running off to take a bath that will last several days. I dont think its supposed to be sexy and romantic, exactly, its supposed to be a "Oh my God, they dont know! Thats messed up!" reaction. 

I thought the whole scene with Dany and Cerseis factions coming together was really interesting from a character perspective. There was quite a lot going on, especially because everyone's interactions and responses to each other. I think my favorite moments were Qyburns reaction to the Wright hand (basically excited to have something so cool to study) the death glares Cersei was sending Brienne when she was talking to Jaimie, followed by an increasingly pissed off Brienne telling Jaimie "Fuck Loyalty" and Jaimies TOTALLY SHOCKED reaction to such a thing, and the super lame dwarf jokes Euron threw out, only for Tyrion to complain about how lame the insult was, with Theon backing him up. "His wasn't even good." It was just all so petty, it was amazing. "Well...your short!" "Well, your insults are dumb! Just like your face!" 

I swear, as much as I think the dramatics with Arya and Sansa last week went overboard (even with what we know now), that moment where Littlefinger finally got his was AMAZING. I think I might have disturbed my neighbors when I yelled "Ohhhhhhh" when Sansa dropped her "How do you plead...Lord Baelish?" and we got to finally see the smug smirk finally get wiped off Littlefingers stupid, smug face. I've always hated that asshole, since day one, and I've been rooting his demise since he betrayed Ned, and it finally came! And not just that, he was executed for everything, from the murder of Jon Arryn to trying to sew discourse between the surviving Stark siblings. His increasing horror as he realized he couldn't bullshit his way out of this, and that literally no one there was going to back him up, was just amazing. I know that there are technically worse people on the show, and people who have been more terrifying and sadistic, but Littlefinger is still the biggest villain on the show to me. He might not have physically killed anyone, but he is responsible for the manipulations that led to the whole War of the Five Kings, which has led to every bad thing thats happened in the whole freaking show in Westeroes! And he has never shown a second of remorse, he just doubles down on his power hungry bullshit, leading to more and more death and destruction, for no reason beyond gaining power, and, back in the early days, getting back at the guy who married the girl he liked, who didn't like him like that. This mother fucker started a massive civil war that led to countless deaths, injuries, endless destruction, the whole country being traumatized, and the possible destruction of his country's entire system of governing and its possible destruction by ice zombies...because he was friendzoned! You know, Joffrey and Ramsey were batshit crazy, Tywin and Cersei craved power and legacy, and the Sand Snakes were blinded by revenge, but NONE of them created this much destruction, for such pathetic, petty reasons. What a piece of shit. 

You go Theon! What is dead may never die indeed. I think this might be the first time he has ever sent out a quick "thanks for cutting my dick off Ramsey!"down towards the fires of Hell. I`m rooting for you Theon! Maybe he can start some kind of support group with Grey Worm, if they both survive all of this. 

You can tell when Jaimie is going to make good choices based in his proximity to Brienne. I`m pretty sure the real reason Sansa sent her to Kings Landing is because she somehow knew that Brienne is the only person in the whole country who can knock some sense into Jaimies thick skull. Looks like hes off to fight the good fight, and finally have something to do, after the show decided not to give him his story from the books, for whatever reason. 

[calvinshobbes]

12 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

Not to mention that swearing allegiance to Cersei would seriously weaken Jon's position. Whatever mistrust the North may have for Dany is nothing compared to the absolute hatred of Cersei. And swearing loyalty to Cersei when he'd already allied with Dany... Jon's name would have been toast.

I liked that Jon stood in direct contrast to Cersei (who wouldn't know the truth if it came up and bit her in the ass) and Dany (who is more honorable but will lie when she believes it to be necessary). With so many duplicitous figures around, having an actual honest man who isn't afraid to stand up for what he believes is right and on occasion is proven right is kind of refreshing. 

when Cersei started saying Ned Stark's son, I was relieved the writers didn't have Jon swear to Cersei only to get out of the pledge on the the fact that he is not Ned Stark's son. 

[Bongo Fury]

How does Euron keep getting his fleet to Kings Landing? The Iron Islands are off the northwest coast of Westeros, and KL is in the middle of the continent at the end of a bay that opens to the east and goes right past Dragonstone? To get to KL from Pyke they'd have to go 2/3 of the way around the continent. Yet the Iron Fleet goes from KL to Higarden to KL to Casterly Rock to KL. That's like 5 trips past Dragonstone where 3 dragons can strafe through the fleet in a surprise attack with little risk. Not to mention the thousands and thousands of miles of sailing they are doing each week.

[that one guy]

2 hours ago, LanceM said:

She is wearing it like Drogo. Just as she does in the books until it gets burned off in ADWD.

Ooh, good catch! So much of the wardrobe and costuming on this show reflect where the characters are in their personal journeys - she's wearing a braid like a Dothraki man, and probably hasn't cut her hair since taking command of the horde, nor will she unless defeated in battle.

Which reminds me - if I have a big disappointment with Season 7, it's that Sansa and Daenerys haven't met. They have such similar stories, and also have both worn a variety of elaborate braided hairstyles over the years. I always imagined we would see them bonding in a scene where they talked strategy while doing each others' hair. It's unlikely that would ever happen on screen because:

1. all the relationship and character establishing conversations are now being cut for time as the end nears, and

2. those are wigs.

But you know that, in addition to trading stories about elaborate ways to execute people (dogs, fire, faceless assassins, crucifixion) they would spend some time talking hair care if they ever met.

[Andromeda]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

I don't think we should overestimate the truth about Jons parentage. Nothing I have seen so far about Jon Snow is that he is power hungry. He didn't ask to be KITN, and in the end he had no problem bending the knee to Dany for what he feels is the greater good. He considers himself Ned Starks son, and I don't think finding out he's not is going to change him fundamentally. I think his main goal right now is the war with the NK and that's his focus. The idea of him focusing instead on being the heir to the iron throne with the WW and a zombie dragon over the wall seems insane to me. He may have an identity crisis down the line, when it's all over, but until the moment that Dany herself sits on the Iron Throne and starts killing innocent people, I don't see him claiming his "birthright". I think the person who is going to have a real problem is Dany herself. She has believed herself to have a divine right to rule, that she is the last Dragon, everything she has gone through and has done for seven years has been leading to her claiming her throne. To find out that it is in fact her lover, and nephew who is the true heir will be devastating. I don't see her giving up her claim either , she has worked to hard and sacrificed too much to just hand the throne over to Jon. It also depends on who else's finds out this information. If Varys finds out, who will he support? What if the other houses ( whose left alive anyway) decide to back Ned Starks nephew with royal blood instead a foreign woman? Any problems that arise from this revelation I genuinely don't see being instigated by Jon. The easiest would be if she gets pregnant and they get married, uniting the two houses and starting a dynasty of their own. ( I would like that ending!) that also fits the war is the roses theme as well IMO, Danny as Henry Tudor and Jon as Elizabeth of York. 

I agree. It really isn't in Jon's nature to want power for himself, is it? He's always the reluctant leader, taking it on because others want it for him. His father certainly had no aims for him to take the Iron Throne, so he wasn't raised with that expectation (unlike Viserys, who was fixated on it.) I can see Bran telling him, and Jon swearing Bran to secrecy, but having a problem with Dany because of it. (Yes, I want them to live happily ever after, despite the "bittersweet" ending promised.)

Besides, he might be embarrassed to be the son of the idiot who started the whole messy rebellion by his selfish actions. Jon loved Ned -- like an adopted son, Ned will always be his father, in his heart.

As for Cersei and her latest spawn, while I wouldn't wish deformity on any real baby, I'd love to see her incest catch up with her genetically (given her age, even more reason) and not give her a dwarf but something much, much worse. I can see Qyburn giving her the news... and us never seeing it but hearing her scream...sort of a Rosemary's Baby moment, LOL.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Andromeda
added much much worse, because having a dwarf baby isn't really a worse -- just look at Tyrion!!

[GrailKing]

20 hours ago, Potanical Pardon said:

Where's Gendry?

Hopefully setting up a forge in WF.

[TaurusRose]

1 hour ago, Pogojoco said:

It's an informed consent thing.  It's dramatic irony, which is often designed to make the audience feel powerless and uncomfortable. And Bran confirming the parentage immediately before that scene tells me they want us to find it creepy and uncomfortable. The showrunners saying "That's his aunt" over that scene in the behind the episode. They could've had the Bran scene to start the episode. Both Jaime and Cersei know what they are doing and the consequences for doing it. 

 

It's not pearl clutching, it's feeling bad for a situation that probably isn't going to end well. 

Exactly. Cersei and Jaime are effed up and fully aware that they are effed up and why. Pulling the wool over a couple of characters eyes, when characters like Bran already know the information, feels creepy and almost cruel. 

Who is pulling the wool over their eyes?  This implies someone is intentionally setting Jon and Daenerys up for a fall, and there is no evidence to support that. WRT how the scene was edited, it didn't make me feel creepy or uncomfortable. Dany and Jon are perfect for each other, but they are going to be hit with game changing news. Bittersweet sums up my overall reaction. So, creepy and cruel are not the words I would use to describe the situation. YMMV.

[magdalene]

1 hour ago, Pogojoco said:

It's an informed consent thing.  It's dramatic irony, which is often designed to make the audience feel powerless and uncomfortable. And Bran confirming the parentage immediately before that scene tells me they want us to find it creepy and uncomfortable. The showrunners saying "That's his aunt" over that scene in the behind the episode. They could've had the Bran scene to start the episode. Both Jaime and Cersei know what they are doing and the consequences for doing it. 

 

It's not pearl clutching, it's feeling bad for a situation that probably isn't going to end well. 

Exactly. Cersei and Jaime are effed up and fully aware that they are effed up and why. Pulling the wool over a couple of characters eyes, when characters like Bran already know the information, feels creepy and almost cruel. 

I feel bad for Jon.  I just can't imagine him being thrilled at learning that he has been having sex with his aunt. He grew up as a Stark, in the North.  While Dany comes from a totally different culture I am not convinced she will be okay with this either.

[peggy06]

11 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

Apologizing upfront again for being unable to quote properly, I have to go page by page or lose what I'm quoting, so for anyone who might care: I am actually reading the thread in full, I just can't respond in a way that reflects that very well. 

On the one hand, true but on the other hand, not really true.  The characters have no idea that they are related.  None whatsoever.  They truly aren't doing anything wrong in their minds or in the nature of their relationship.  Incest is wrong on multiple levels but one of them has to do with being emotionally unhealthy for people with an existing relationship.   Knowing it is taboo and results in emotional damage that can last a lifetime is something that audience possesses knowledge on but the characters do not. 

However, the show decided to voice over about the Aunt and nephew thing while they were doing the do specifically to send the audience a message that it is going to be a giant issue once they hit land.  Once they learn what they have done, it's going to trouble them both, if for no other reason than to illustrate that Dany and Jon as potential ruling entities have nothing in common with Cersei and Jaime who have been all "Yay, incest!"  

The Voice Over over sex that didn't include any warm-up or kissing about being way too closely related for that to be a good idea seems to indicate that Dany and Jon will be of the "No! Incest! YIKES!" once in possession of that knowledge.   So it seems that the show threw out a clue as to the direction they are taking this in and that it promises to be a source of emotional pain for both characters when they learn what they have accidentally done. 

I can't help but wonder if we may have Arya as Littlefinger next year, to gain access to the King's Landing and kill Cersei.  So we might not be done with Aiden Gillen yet (and I agree, he's been pretty weak in this role) but I was still glad to see him bested by the remaining Stark siblings.   I also really appreciated that Sansa and Arya had a moment of acknowledging that they both went through mountains of hell and that Arya is incredibly brave while Sansa has been also, simply to still be functional. 

Yeah, that was beyond hollow to me, but in the better late than never category, I will happily take it. 

I understand the point you are making but really disagree with the manner in which it is being made.  It isn't just the characters on this show that have no emotional framework to make this anything than an emotional trial for them both.  They've done nothing wrong, it isn't incest to them.   They are committing incest on a technicality because they've been lied to their entire lives.  This isn't touched on anywhere but I'm assuming that Viserys may have actually been privy to the fact that Lyanna Stark was not a captive (she just kind of sucked because her romance ended with her family being killed in rather large numbers and that's continuing to this day) but there's something kind of important about that annullment.  

It invalidates Dany's claim because Jon would be in the succession before she would.  The succession would pass to Jon before it would Dany. That was the big issue when Henry VIII had his marriage to Catherine of Aragon annulled (all of his marriages were annulled, he was never divorced, it nullifies legitimacy also) and it invalidated Mary Tudor's claim.  So his annullment would invalidate the two children that were killed but it also puts Dany in a different position.  Mary's line in the succession was restored after her younger half-brother Edward ruled and died before her and it only happened because they were essentially out of heirs.  There's that whole Lady Jane Grey and her nine day rule rebellion in there too.  

That's part of the point, or should be, about revealing that Rhaegar had the marriage annulled.  It invalidates the children of his first marriage but it also changes Dany's place in the line. 

But the show isn't "Yay, incest!" and scolding fans who also completely lack the emotional construct for the characters that it is wrong is carrying the ball too far over the goal line, I think.  

As a for instance, I think incest is reprehensible but on the rare occasion I've read about someone accidentally marrying their half-brother (which you'd think would be rarer than it is) without any knowledge of it, I have to admit, I think they should just be left alone.  The genetic implications are far overstated and the true problem because that it is a form of emotional abuse and damage.  

That exists with Jaime and Cersei.  It doesn't exist as a factor with Dany and Jon.  I don't ship them even a tiny bit but I understand why other people aren't horrified because they aren't breaking any rules knowingly.  It's actually freaking tragic and I think meant to be so.   The scene didn't personally do anything for me but I think people are well within bounds to think pretty people having sex is something fun.  Intellectual knowledge and emotional response being separate things is actually the point of what they are doing with Dany and Jon. 

Really good post, and I think this is probably going to be the direction they go. Of course any pregnancy (which has been strongly hinted) will be a huge complication for them.

[that one guy]

2 hours ago, Paradigm14 said:

Re. Jon's "real name" - I'm getting really annoyed at people on Tumblr going on about it being ridiculous that Rhaegar chose the same name of his dead son for his new son. Why is everyone assuming that only the dad gets to name the baby, rather than the woman whose body the kid just came out of?

It appears that Rhaegar was obsessed with the prince that was promised prophecy, and that it was all tied up in his head with the history of his family. He was sure the ptwp was going to be his son, whom he wanted to name after Aegon the Conqueror. He is also apparently the source of the "dragon has three heads" thing, and wanted to have three children, named after the three conquerors. So he had a son named Aegon, and a daugher named Rhaenys. But Elia was bedridden for the second pregnancy, and probably wouldn't have survived the third. Rhaegar clearly hoped for a second daughter, whom he'd have wanted to name Visenya, after Aegon's other sister-wife. Then he'd have a complete set. Collect them all! However, by the time Jon was born, Rhaegar was dead, Aerys was dead, Elia, Aegon, and Rhaenys were dead, and Lyanna had a boy. So she named him Aegon, probably in hopes that he would be able to fulfill the prophecy that Rhaegar had so fervently believed in. The two Aegons were never alive at the same time, and Rhaegar was probably sure the baby would be a girl. So Lyanna named him, but either named him in honor of what she believed Rhaegar's wishes would have been, or believed in the prophecy herself. Rhaegar would not have named Jon Aegon if the other Aegon had lived, in fact he'd almost certainly have named him Viserys, because he was going to be named Visenya when they assumed he was going to be a girl.

As for the "how bad is the aunt/nephew incest" question, I guess it's moot if Daenerys really can't have children, but it's a problem, not so much for the thing itself, but because her family had a history of it. The Spanish Hapsburgs had a huge run of cousins marrying and uncles marrying nieces, it ended badly.  The problem is, the multiple generation of relatives marrying each other increased the risk of a matched set of identical chromosomes. The over/under on the number of identical pairs of chromosomes Charles II had is 6. Out of 23. This is a question of probability, so it could be less but could be more. It's likely he had 2 different rare recessive genetic disorders simultaneously. Jon likely wouldn't have any because Lyanna Stark is totally different genetic stock (First Men, it seems like Catelyn Tully was the first Andal to marry into the Stark clan, they build a Sept just for her, implying before her it was the old gods of the First Men all the way back). But Rhaegar and Daenerys are likely to share more than the average number of chromosomes for a brother/sister pair, because their parents were also brother and sister. Somebody did an analysis of the Targaryen family tree (ladder) and concluded that they probably share 44% of their genetic material (again, probability, so maybe less but maybe more). That means, they each of 46 chromosomes, 20 of these in common. There may be a couple cases where 3 of the 4 they hold between them are the same, with the odd one out coming from Lyanna. In short, while I actually sort of ship them, I think they should adopt.

But while the lack of genetic diversity may be linked to Targaryen madness, it would also explain Daenerys' immunity to fire, which is not shared by Jon or Viserys - it's a recessive gene, you need two of them to be fireproof. Jon got the dominant gene from Lyanna, Viserys likewise only got one gene, but it's located on one of the chromosomes that Dany has two of. I believe I thought too much about this, and will stop now.

Edited August 29, 2017 by that one guy

[GrailKing]

14 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

And Sansa... stop gripping that Jon made an alliance without consulting with you first. What, he was supposed to send home a raven to ask permission of his little sister to do what he, as king, needs to do, and then hang around waiting for a response? What did she think he'd gone south for in the first place? To make an alliance to help fight the Night King, you silly twit! Not because he wanted a change in scenery. And yes, marrying Dany would make a whole lot of sense - the two most powerful people in Westeros uniting the kingdoms against a common threat. And seriously... Jon always does things like this? For all your lives, how do you know what Jon would and wouldn't do? You barely spoke to him before now.

You don't think him bending the knees won't affect those flakey Northern Lords, they're going to Winterfell, he could have waited; Sansa is dealing with all those windvane lords, how do you think Lord Glover will react, if it gets out? what he call Robb's wife?  a foreign whore.

If this gets out before they get to WF themselves, he may not have an army, and we don't know if LF left a gift to those Northern Lords or not.

[peggy06]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

That's what makes me nervous. Also him admitting he's been trying to protect his family. If he truly feels guilty for Myrcellas death, he might try to protect Cerseis unborn child and betray Dany and Jon. Who knows, it gives me a bad feeling :( 

Me, too.

[Nanrad]

14 hours ago, loki567 said:

And that's about the fifth most stupid thing of this entire storyline, the fact that a wight would absolutely shock and terrify everyone in King's Landing when hello, they were already sharing a pavilion with a zombie in FrankenGregor. 

Regardless, I don't think it normalizes literally thousands of the dead overtaking your city (besides the fact that they look and behave totally different). And isn't FrakenGregor always covered as well opposed to watching deteriorating dead bodies walk towards you.

12 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

Raising a glass to Ned, the man that everyone thought was a fool but managed to pull the biggest con in the history of the kingdoms. Hiding the true heir to the Iron Throne with no one - not Varys or Littlefinger or all the clever, smart movers and shakers - having the least clue. Way to go, Eddard.

It's interesting because despite how honorable Ned was, since he didn't deny paternity, people believed it and he seriously kept to his word. The man knows how to keep his secret and his word.

9 hours ago, Edith said:

My very unpopular opinion 

Cersei is right. If dragons, dothraki, unsullied, wildlings and northern armies can't beat the dead, what good is the Lannister army going to do? If the dead win, they march south and kill her, if the living win, Team Dany  march south and kill her.

Cersei is a duplicitous snake backstabbing the "heroes" (who are responsible for bringing down the wall), but she's playing the clearly correct move. 

This has been touched on, but if she had partnered with them, it would've granted her some leniency if they did win after the battle with the NK. Now, she's given them NO reason to be sympathetic to her because she's proven she is only out for herself, especially with the army she plans to bring in from Essos. It's totally the incorrect move and she is playing the game wrong. Also, they need all of the men they can get. It's better to have more than enough than not enough, especially when they can be raised from the dead unless burned. 

9 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Why should Cersei agree to work with any of them under the terms Jon proposed? If he's not willing to lie to try to save the world, then I guess the wight threat and saving the world isn't as important as Jon says it is. 

Isn't this irrelevant tho because Cersei had no intention of living up to her word? So, basically Jon wouldn't dishonored himself for someone who had no intention in holding up their end of the bargain. 

8 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

Exactly. Jon was under cover among the wildlings. And even so, when he was forced to kill an innocent farmer to prove his loyalty to the free folk, he refused and blew his cover because his honor wouldn't allow him to do it. Jon's unfailing sense of honor is consistent throughout the whole series. 

Another poster eloquently explained why keeping your word is important and the impact it has on honor and this statement definitely complements it. Jon wouldn't have gotten as far as he has without his honor. He wouldn't have gotten dead as well, BUT the same honor is what got him resurrected and has had other people do shit for him. But, most importantly, if no one's word is worth a damn, what's the point of doing anything? Another poster touched on WHY especially honor was important to Jon, which was because of his bastard status. As stupid as it may sound, Jon would rather be right than alive. Hell, Ned going against his honor code is ironically what got him killed (an accumulation of things, but that was the cherry). 

7 hours ago, ulkis said:

Someone posted that genetic issues on the show don't matter. But isn't Joffrey, Aerys, and Viserys' madness supposed to be connected to them being incestuous offspring? Or that just in the books?

Here's the thing with incest: massive inbredding is what causes genetic issues because there isn't any diversity in the genes. So the more similar your genes are, the higher risk your offspring has for a disorder or something. Jamie and Cersei are twins and the Targaryens have practiced inbredding for generations. There is far more diversity in Jon and Dany's genes than there are of the people you mentioned. I'm not saying genetic issues don't matter on the show and I do believe it was mentioned in the books, BUT, that's just how I see it for if Jon and Dany have a child.

====

Jon will probably have a momentary existential crisis when he finds out Ned isn't his bio dad, but ultimately, he'll consider Ned his father because that IS the man who raised him and taught him by which the code Jon follows by. Also, Jon is a Stark. Not literally in name, but stark blood flows through him which is different than what was going on with Theon. He'll still have that blood connection to Ned and the fact that Ned loved and treated him like a son as well as protected him as much as he could. Jon will probably admire and love him even more for that.

====

Honestly, I think Sansa and Arya were really fighting, but Arya was primarily investigating. She sees the close relationship Sansa and LF has, sees that Sansa isn't defending Jon as she believes she should, and sees that, despite no wanting to feel the way she does, Sansa wants to rule Winterfell. Arya knows something is off, and then finds the letter in LF's room, and then plays the Game of Faces with Sansa after she reads the letter to her. It is then that Arya knows that Sansa is innocent and there is something going on with LF, but doesn't have all of the pieces. Sansa realizes the game LF is playing at after their last conversation. She knew not to trust him, but now she understands his bigger picture. Sansa goes to Arya because she understands her sister's suspicious and informs her that Bran can "see" things. Since Bran has direction and understand where he needs to focus his attention on, he is then able to gather the rest of the info. (Bran is google-he needs some specificity, okay! lol)

====

Rhaegar and Lyanna--if they decided to run off together, they're both fucking assholes. Regardless of if they knew what would happen, there were ramifications regardless. What did either think was going to happen least worst case scenario??? Rhaegar was married and had two kids. IF she wanted to run off with an unattached man, that's one thing, but married??? I understand wanting freedom, but that's not how you go about it. What did Rhaegar think his ex wife's family was going to do or what they're reaction would've been. It's just incredibly selfish all around. Even though women had less free will than men, if any, when it came to houses, the marriages were arranged. Sansa went from liking her match with Joffrey to being terrified, but Joffrey didn't get a choice. Didn't Ned offer Arya someone she would like or something? Myrcella was arranged, but liked/was in love with Trystane. Only the common folk got to choose. Hell, Ned didn't even choose Catelyn. lol. And Catelyn wanted to marry Brandon before he died. 

And Rhaegar illegitimatized his children as well. I don't care if it led to the PWWP, they fucked over a lot of people to make this happen, which had long term ramifications.

[Blonde Gator]

2 hours ago, LanceM said:

I believe this is on purpose. She is wearing it like Drogo. Just as she does in the books until it gets burned off in ADWD.

 

Actually, I think her rockin' white winter coat looks more like Drogon.....she's got those dragon scale motifs going on down her back.

In looking for photos of Drogo's hair, here's the full scene from your pic.  Shows Dany's earlier style (and a better wig, IMO).  I think she still loves the look of the braids, but you're right, she's piling them on around her head and then pulling them in a long single braid in an ode to Drogo.   That wig she's wearing now is like horse hair, I know people with thick hair, but even Dany's "small" braids on the crown of her head are much thicker than most women would have at the nape of their necks.  I'll shut up now, but that silver plastic hair really annoys me!!!!!

 

[domina89]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

I thought the whole scene with Dany and Cerseis factions coming together was really interesting from a character perspective. There was quite a lot going on, especially because everyone's interactions and responses to each other. I think my favorite moments were Qyburns reaction to the Wright hand (basically excited to have something so cool to study) the death glares Cersei was sending Brienne when she was talking to Jaimie, followed by an increasingly pissed off Brienne telling Jaimie "Fuck Loyalty" and Jaimies TOTALLY SHOCKED reaction to such a thing, and the super lame dwarf jokes Euron threw out, only for Tyrion to complain about how lame the insult was, with Theon backing him up. "His wasn't even good." It was just all so petty, it was amazing. "Well...your short!" "Well, your insults are dumb! Just like your face!"

I'm surprised they didn't have Euron throw a short joke at Jon just so D&D could get one last jab at Kit in this season.  Ugh..........

[TobinAlbers]

4 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

Jon will probably have a momentary existential crisis when he finds out Ned isn't his bio dad, but ultimately, he'll consider Ned his father because that IS the man who raised him and taught him by which the code Jon follows by. Also, Jon is a Stark. Not literally in name, but stark blood flows through him which is different than what was going on with Theon. He'll still have that blood connection to Ned and the fact that Ned loved and treated him like a son as well as protected him as much as he could. Jon will probably admire and love him even more for that.

This. I so cannot wait for it to dawn on Jon how big a deal it was that Ned took him in as his bastard. Not just for the public ramifications of his honor being tarnished but for the wedge, however small, it put in his marriage. Cat never got over the betrayal and took it out on Jon. Boy howdy how would she have reacted if she had lived to learn the truth.

And if Tyrion and/or Varys find out the truth and aren't gobsmacked that Ned pulled off the greatest con of the century and don't raise a glass to Ned in awe and pour one in on respect I'll be disappointed.

[GraceK]

20 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

Regardless, I don't think it normalizes literally thousands of the dead overtaking your city (besides the fact that they look and behave totally different). And isn't FrakenGregor always covered as well opposed to watching deteriorating dead bodies walk towards you.

It's interesting because despite how honorable Ned was, since he didn't deny paternity, people believed it and he seriously kept to his word. The man knows how to keep his secret and his word.

This has been touched on, but if she had partnered with them, it would've granted her some leniency if they did win after the battle with the NK. Now, she's given them NO reason to be sympathetic to her because she's proven she is only out for herself, especially with the army she plans to bring in from Essos. It's totally the incorrect move and she is playing the game wrong. Also, they need all of the men they can get. It's better to have more than enough than not enough, especially when they can be raised from the dead unless burned. 

Isn't this irrelevant tho because Cersei had no intention of living up to her word? So, basically Jon wouldn't dishonored himself for someone who had no intention in holding up their end of the bargain. 

Another poster eloquently explained why keeping your word is important and the impact it has on honor and this statement definitely complements it. Jon wouldn't have gotten as far as he has without his honor. He wouldn't have gotten dead as well, BUT the same honor is what got him resurrected and has had other people do shit for him. But, most importantly, if no one's word is worth a damn, what's the point of doing anything? Another poster touched on WHY especially honor was important to Jon, which was because of his bastard status. As stupid as it may sound, Jon would rather be right than alive. Hell, Ned going against his honor code is ironically what got him killed (an accumulation of things, but that was the cherry). 

Here's the thing with incest: massive inbredding is what causes genetic issues because there isn't any diversity in the genes. So the more similar your genes are, the higher risk your offspring has for a disorder or something. Jamie and Cersei are twins and the Targaryens have practiced inbredding for generations. There is far more diversity in Jon and Dany's genes than there are of the people you mentioned. I'm not saying genetic issues don't matter on the show and I do believe it was mentioned in the books, BUT, that's just how I see it for if Jon and Dany have a child.

====

Jon will probably have a momentary existential crisis when he finds out Ned isn't his bio dad, but ultimately, he'll consider Ned his father because that IS the man who raised him and taught him by which the code Jon follows by. Also, Jon is a Stark. Not literally in name, but stark blood flows through him which is different than what was going on with Theon. He'll still have that blood connection to Ned and the fact that Ned loved and treated him like a son as well as protected him as much as he could. Jon will probably admire and love him even more for that.

====

Honestly, I think Sansa and Arya were really fighting, but Arya was primarily investigating. She sees the close relationship Sansa and LF has, sees that Sansa isn't defending Jon as she believes she should, and sees that, despite no wanting to feel the way she does, Sansa wants to rule Winterfell. Arya knows something is off, and then finds the letter in LF's room, and then plays the Game of Faces with Sansa after she reads the letter to her. It is then that Arya knows that Sansa is innocent and there is something going on with LF, but doesn't have all of the pieces. Sansa realizes the game LF is playing at after their last conversation. She knew not to trust him, but now she understands his bigger picture. Sansa goes to Arya because she understands her sister's suspicious and informs her that Bran can "see" things. Since Bran has direction and understand where he needs to focus his attention on, he is then able to gather the rest of the info. (Bran is google-he needs some specificity, okay! lol)

====

Rhaegar and Lyanna--if they decided to run off together, they're both fucking assholes. Regardless of if they knew what would happen, there were ramifications regardless. What did either think was going to happen least worst case scenario??? Rhaegar was married and had two kids. IF she wanted to run off with an unattached man, that's one thing, but married??? I understand wanting freedom, but that's not how you go about it. What did Rhaegar think his ex wife's family was going to do or what they're reaction would've been. It's just incredibly selfish all around. Even though women had less free will than men, if any, when it came to houses, the marriages were arranged. Sansa went from liking her match with Joffrey to being terrified, but Joffrey didn't get a choice. Didn't Ned offer Arya someone she would like or something? Myrcella was arranged, but liked/was in love with Trystane. Only the common folk got to choose. Hell, Ned didn't even choose Catelyn. lol. And Catelyn wanted to marry Brandon before he died. 

And Rhaegar illegitimatized his children as well. I don't care if it led to the PWWP, they fucked over a lot of people to make this happen, which had long term ramifications.

I love this post. :) great insights. I agree 100%

Edited August 29, 2017 by GraceK

[Blonde Gator]

2 hours ago, call me ishmael said:

I had the same thought.  In fact, it seemed to me that he was breathing blue fire/ice for longer than any of the dragons breathed fire.  Perhaps because since he is undead he doesn't need to breathe?

it made me wonder if that is going to be how he is able to take on 2 dragons.   Cause normally I wouldn't think he could stand up to Drogon.

As I said earlier, I gave this a rewatch today, on the computer. 

It seems to me that Viserion is now being imaged as longer, much thinner, and is far more angular, particularly in his wings.  Whereas Drogon in close up flying scenes is graceful and swooping, for lack of a better worm, Viserion's wings are bonier, and almost mechanical looking in their movement.  See :20+ seconds.  His wings fold up kind of mechanically on the up stroke.  I wonder how well Viserion will be able to fly if his wings deteriorate further?  That would be a sad ice dragon, with wings so shredded he couldn't fly.

[Blonde Gator]

1 hour ago, Andromeda said:

I agree. It really isn't in Jon's nature to want power for himself, is it? He's always the reluctant leader, taking it on because others want it for him. His father certainly had no aims for him to take the Iron Throne, so he wasn't raised with that expectation (unlike Viserys, who was fixated on it.) I can see Bran telling him, and Jon swearing Bran to secrecy, but having a problem with Dany because of it. (Yes, I want them to live happily ever after, despite the "bittersweet" ending promised.)

Besides, he might be embarrassed to be the son of the idiot who started the whole messy rebellion by his selfish actions. Jon loved Ned -- like an adopted son, Ned will always be his father, in his heart.

As for Cersei and her latest spawn, while I wouldn't wish deformity on any real baby, I'd love to see her incest catch up with her genetically (given her age, even more reason) and not give her a dwarf but something much, much worse. I can see Qyburn giving her the news... and us never seeing it but hearing her scream...sort of a Rosemary's Baby moment, LOL.

Speaking Cersei being a bit long in the tooth....there was a shot of her in the Dragon pit, sitting in her chair, where her neck looked like it belonged to Olenna, who had the good sense to keep her neck covered up at her age.  RIP, QOT.  The old girl is still having fun at Cersei's expense.

[MichaelaRae]

14 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I could see that, or I could see Qyburn coming up with better ways to kill the wights.  I'm not really sure if he is purely on the side of evil or if he just wants to be able to do his experiments without any constraints.  

Yeah, that's...evil.

[tennisgurl]

You know, I might be rejoicing at the end of Littlefinger, but this episode also confirmed to me what I have long suspected, that this show had a few more master villains this whole time: Rhaegar and Lyana. Granted, we dont know the whole story here, and its possible that this was part of some plot by Rhaegar to create some kind of Fire and Ice Promised One kid to save the world, and that would make this all a little bit better, and they didnt seem as malicious as Littlefinger, BUT from what we see here, these two were self centered, uncaring assholes, especially for characters who the other characters have spoken highly of. 

I mean, just about everyone we have met has talked about how wonderful Lyanna was, how sweet and strong and spunky she was, and her flashbacks as a kid seem to set her up as a kind of sweeter Arya 1.0, but when you look at the facts? She was put together with Robert as a political marriage, and Robert fell for her, but she fell for Rhaegar in all of his stringy haired glory, so what does she do? Why, run off with this stringy haired guy, letting her fiance and her beloved family think that she was kidnapped and raped, to marry a guy who is ALREADY MARRIED to a nice woman with two kids, while consenting to her boyfriend ditching his family and making his kids bastards, and screwing up an entire series of alliances that helps her whole country run. And she couldn't have just, I dont know, sent a freaking LETTER to Robert or her father and let them know what was up? It would have been a pain, considering he was married and she was engaged, but it would have been a better scenario than her dad and brother showing up to "rescue" her, and dying horribly, and starting a giant war that would leave countless people dead and the seeds that would lead to the War of the Five Kings. Granted, something might have happened anyway at some point, given the Mad King, but maybe he just would have died, and the whole thing could have just gone away? If Lyanna was so awesome, why was she ok with this? It sucks that she would have to marry a man she does not love, but its pretty standard for their culture, and if its "marry this frat boy I dont really like that much" or "start a war that leaves half my family and a huge swath of my people dead", I think the right answer is pretty freaking obvious. Did she know what happened to her father and brother at the hands of her father in law, who are new hubbies is still defending? Did she care? 

But you know who was worse? Freaking Rhaegar, who was the asshole who ditched his poor sweet wife, left her and his kids alone with his crazy evil father to run off to marry his piece on the side, IN HIS WIFES HOMELAND, and deliberately annulled their marriage, making his kids bastards and utterly insulting and humiliating poor Elia. And because this wasn't enough, he hid what was really happened, letting his new wife's father and brother be murdered by his evil father, who he still supported despite knowing what a monster he was, and then went to war, which practically tore their country apart and cost the lives of countless innocent people, all because he was thinking with his dick. For a guy everyone (who isn't Robert) talks up as such a great guy, he comes off as a huge asshole in all of this, who didn't care about his responsibilities to his family and country, and just wanted his new, hotter wife. This guy is such a shitty excuse for a monarch, that even Edward VIII is judging him. If anything, all this makes me retroactively feel worse for Robert (who has mourned a woman who cheated on and dumped him for another guy for years) and Ned (who found out that not only is his beloved sister dead, but everything he fought for was a lie, if he knew the implications of what Lyanna said, which I assume he did), and made me think that Lyanna and Rhaegar really deserved each other. What assholes. 

I do think its interesting that they seemed to parallel the wedding flashback with another terrible marital decision involving a Stark, with the wedding of Rob and Talisa, which I`m not sure what they are trying to say. Are they saying these are both romantic, star crossed lovers, or brainless idiots who threw away their responsibilities to their people to get some? Well, I know which side I am on. But, at least Rob was only engaged, and Talisa was single, and they did TRY to do damage control, as half assed as it was. Lyanna and Rhaegar just threw away their responsibilities to their families and people, and went to war, seemingly without caring about the huge cost to their country. Again, what assholes. 

46 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

Even though women had less free will than men, if any, when it came to houses, the marriages were arranged.

Yeah, this is why I cant say I have too much sympathy for these two selfish creeps. While arranged marriages might offend my modern sensibilities, this is how their culture works, and being a rich and powerful person in their world comes with perks as well as responsibilities, and one of those responsibilities is marrying for political gain. This is practical in this society, because it connects these families in time of war or other turbulence, and allows them to come together faster. Its just the way it is here. Granted, some of these matches are clearly awful (Sansa/Ramsey anyone?), but for the most part, this is just what happens, and everyone considers it to be normal. Ned and Cat were arranged, and would have certainly have arranged for marriages for all of their kids. We saw them do it with Sansa and Rob, and they were already promising Arya to some Frey guy to secure their alliance, and they would have done the same with the rest of the kids. If he didn't take the Black, they probably would have even arranged for Jon to marry a second or third daughter of a noble northern house or something, or married Theon to a northern girl to hold up a possible alliance with his people, and everyone knows this, this is just how it is. Everyone else sucks it up, so why couldn't they? They didn't even seem that unhappy with their matches (Elia was apparently perfectly nice, and Robert was apparently a decent guy in his youth), and they knew how important these alliances were. They just didn't care. 

Edited August 29, 2017 by tennisgurl

[tennisgurl]

Oh, and he gave his son with Lyanna the same name as the son he declared a bastard. Like he was officially announcing "screw those other stupid kids of mine, THIS is my kid!". Again, what an asshole. 

[rmontro]

14 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

As well as he knows her, I have a very, hard time believing Tyrion would ever join up with Cersei.  I could possibly see him betraying Dany to follow someone else, but not Cersei.  

Not to follow Cersei, to protect his unborn nephew/niece.  He did say that he loved Cersei's other children (although Joffrey would be a stretch).  He was obviously concerned when he realized she was pregnant.  Besides, he had just got done telling Jon Snow it wouldn't hurt to lie once in a while.  He obviously cares for his family.  Not only that, every one of his military suggestions ended unsuccessfully.

[skiracing12]

Reading these threads is making me feel like I'm the other one who likes the Dany and Jon romance (the idea, not the writing). Yeah incest is pretty gross to us but again as people have said it supposed to be a different time. I'm not dedicated enough to scan the genealogies of the houses but I'm sure that if you looked there would be many examples of marriages like this one throughout the houses. Also, GoT has always been a show of grey's, not black and white. One of the things that i felt was missing from this season was some grey in our heroes's arcs. Because we all recognize incest is bad, maybe this is a way to add a little bit more grey to a character like Jon, and present him with choices in the future that can redeem him or add even more grey. Anyways I thought the writing could've used some work, but i like the idea of a Jon Dany romance, not just because its a fan service but because it does exactly what we all love GoT for.

[Shimmergloom]

45 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

If he didn't take the Black, they probably would have even arranged for Jon to marry a second or third daughter of a noble northern house or something,

Meera.  I think Ned would have wanted Jon and Meera for a match if anything.  Howland would have been ok with it and not thought it a slight, since he would have known Jon's true identity.

[skiracing12]

15 minutes ago, skiracing12 said:

Reading these threads is making me feel like I'm the other one who likes the Dany and Jon romance (the idea, not the writing). Yeah incest is pretty gross to us but again as people have said it supposed to be a different time. I'm not dedicated enough to scan the genealogies of the houses but I'm sure that if you looked there would be many examples of marriages like this one throughout the houses. Also, GoT has always been a show of grey's, not black and white. One of the things that i felt was missing from this season was some grey in our heroes's arcs. Because we all recognize incest is bad, maybe this is a way to add a little bit more grey to a character like Jon, and present him with choices in the future that can redeem him or add even more grey. Anyways I thought the writing could've used some work, but i like the idea of a Jon Dany romance, not just because its a fan service but because it does exactly what we all love GoT for.

 

I think the actors have good insights on where D and D are probably going to take this arc and also Peter explains tyrions weird look. 

[Blonde Gator]

Here's an excellent look at "Behind the Scenes" at the Dragon Pit.  Really excellent.  It's so funny to hear Tyrion in Peter Dinklage's real voice and accent while he's dressed up as Tyrion.  After seeing this, I'm really sorry we got such a cartoon Euron character.  I think the actor could really kill some great writing if he had it.  I have become a fan of his, and hope he does more American films. 

Anyway, enjoy!

[Nanrad]

I haven't necessarily seen it here, but I see many people trying to conflate Jaime and Cersei to Dany and Jon, which are two completely different relationships both literally and figuratively. As someone who is STILL grossed out by Cersei and Jaime, but ships Jon and Dany, which wasn't until this last episode, I'll further explain why:

Shipping is totally preferential, but when it comes to literal blood relationship and romance, Jaime and Cersei aren't just brother and sister, they are twins who look alike. They have an incredibly close relationship. These two literally grew up together and take pride in the fact that they're banging each other as well as having kids together. They KNOW and don't care. In their minds, we're actually supposed to understand their romance EVEN more--they've only ever had each other. As a twin myself (we're both females), that's a big fat no from me. My twin and I are super close, especially because we were excluded from a lot of things and only had each other, but...NOPE. Even with my brothers, NO! 

But, something went 'wrong' because, psychologically speaking, they aren't supposed to be attracted to each other because they've literally been around each other their entire life, and so, that intense familiarity is supposed to negate any attraction. Why? As mentioned earlier, the more similar your genes are, the more likely you are to create a child who has no diversity in their genes which offsprings need biologically. The only two type of siblings who resembles each others DNA the most are identical twins, which they don't have that reproduction issue since I believe identical twins are only of the same sex.

Now when it comes to cousins, aunts, etc, there is enough diversity in the genes to the point that they don't have this issue. But, again, unless there is hella inbredding, there isn't a biological component there. As far as their familial relationship dynamic goes, I'm not sure about societal relationships between aunt and nephew perception wise, but I believe until a few decades ago, there wasn't a taboo on marrying your cousin--this is a recent thing. (I couldn't be wrong). But, since this is based upon a different time, there would be less of a taboo, especially because they aren't brother and sister. Dany would be okay with it and I believe it wouldn't be the end of the world for Jon. I've literally read like .5% of the book, but weren't Ned's parents related, hell, isn't most of those who hold houses or fought in the battle of five kings related somehow???

Lastly, Dany and Jon literally had no relationship prior to them meeting in Dragonstone nor were they aware of their bloodties. I doubt it would something that turned them on either like it did with Jamie and Cersei. 

So, because of these reason: lack of relationship, how they're related to each other and what it means for genetics, as well as the fact that ancestral marriages were practiced, but not siblings (just the Targaryens--I think), it's not a thing for me. I think they're great together and I'm excited/anxious to see what's next. lol

ETA: FDR and Elenor Roosevelt were cousins. I believe many cousins married each other in the early 20th century and prior centuries. Again, I know there is a difference between cousins and aunt and nephew, but there isn't an established relationship that acknowledges this and they're like the same age give or take a few years.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Nanrad

[Andromeda]

23 hours ago, Oscirus said:

If all this is true, why hide her? There's no reason to hide her if he thought what he was doing was righteous. He should have married her took her to King's landing, told the Dornish, the Starks and the Baratheons to suck it up. He knew what he was doing. Hell Rhaegar could've went to Kings landing as soon as he heard the Starks were arrested, but he didn't he and many died because of it. He didn't care.

Look at the marriage scene on this show. Those aren't the face of two people disheartened by the fact that the brides family got slaughtered by their actions.

I have a strong feeling the whole "annulment/second marriage" plot for Rhaegar and Lyanna is an afterthought, probably one George had and passed on to D&D. It just doesn't fit that well with the history as we've been told it. I always thought Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna but she fell for him anyway, so Jon's not a rape baby, but having her complicit in destroying Elia's marriage seems really un-Stark-like. Certainly not like something the sweet young woman Robert and Ned wax nostalgic about would ever do.

Both Rhaegar and Lyanna have so much blood on their hands because neither had the honor to put their own desires second to the good of the nations and families who relied on them.

But George/D&D wanted Jon to be the "legitimate" heir, even though it seems unnecessary to me. As a bastard, he could still have a claim on the throne if he were the lone offspring of the crown prince. (There's a reason Joffrey had all the Baratheon children killed, except Gendry who escaped.)

[tennisgurl]

1 hour ago, Shimmergloom said:

Meera.  I think Ned would have wanted Jon and Meera for a match if anything. 

Oh yeah, I could actually totally see that! The Reeds and the Starks have been friends/allies for ages, and Meera and Jon would probably get along. They would have been a really solid match for the Reeds/Starks. One of my favorite mini thought experiments is thinking about how things would have gone if Jon Arryn hadn't been killed, or even if Roberts Rebellion hadn't happened, and who would have ended up getting paired with who, and why. 

[glowbug]

4 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

I have a strong feeling the whole "annulment/second marriage" plot for Rhaegar and Lyanna is an afterthought, probably one George had and passed on to D&D. It just doesn't fit that well with the history as we've been told it. I always thought Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna but she fell for him anyway, so Jon's not a rape baby, but having her complicit in destroying Elia's marriage seems really un-Stark-like. Certainly not like something the sweet young woman Robert and Ned wax nostalgic about would ever do.

Both Rhaegar and Lyanna have so much blood on their hands because neither had the honor to put their own desires second to the good of the nations and families who relied on them.

But George/D&D wanted Jon to be the "legitimate" heir, even though it seems unnecessary to me. As a bastard, he could still have a claim on the throne if he were the lone offspring of the crown prince. (There's a reason Joffrey had all the Baratheon children killed, except Gendry who escaped.)

I'm pretty sure in the books (if they're ever released...not holding my breath) it will be revealed that Rhaegar took Lyanna as a second wife, which Targaryens did historically. The show probably went with the annulment explanation because Targaryen polygamy hasn't been established in the show and they didn't want to waste time explaining it. An annulment wouldn't require any explanation and it wouldn't feel like it came out of no where for non-book readers. 

[Shimmergloom]

4 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Oh yeah, I could actually totally see that! The Reeds and the Starks have been friends/allies for ages, and Meera and Jon would probably get along. They would have been a really solid match for the Reeds/Starks. One of my favorite mini thought experiments is thinking about how things would have gone if Jon Arryn hadn't been killed, or even if Roberts Rebellion hadn't happened, and who would have ended up getting paired with who, and why. 

Me too.  I like thinking about the "what ifs?" of it all.  I also liked the idea of Jojen and Sansa, but he's dead on the show.  Still hoping for the books though.

Robb and Margery would have been a power couple too.

[Andromeda]

1 hour ago, Nanrad said:

I haven't necessarily seen it here, but I see many people trying to conflate Jaime and Cersei to Dany and Jon, which are two completely different relationships both literally and figuratively. As someone who is STILL grossed out by Cersei and Jaime, but ships Jon and Dany, which wasn't until this last episode, I'll further explain why:

Shipping is totally preferential, but when it comes to literal blood relationship and romance, Jaime and Cersei aren't just brother and sister, they are twins who look alike. They have an incredibly close relationship. These two literally grew up together and take pride in the fact that they're banging each other as well as having kids together. They KNOW and don't care. In their minds, we're actually supposed to understand their romance EVEN more--they've only ever had each other. As a twin myself (we're both females), that's a big fat no from me. My twin and I are super close, especially because we were excluded from a lot of things and only had each other, but...NOPE. Even with my brothers, NO! 

But, something went 'wrong' because, psychologically speaking, they aren't supposed to be attracted to each other because they've literally been around each other their entire life, and so, that intense familiarity is supposed to negate any attraction. Why? As mentioned earlier, the more similar your genes are, the more likely you are to create a child who has no diversity in their genes which offsprings need biologically. The only two type of siblings who resembles each others DNA the most are identical twins, which they don't have that reproduction issue since I believe identical twins are only of the same sex.

Now when it comes to cousins, aunts, etc, there is enough diversity in the genes to the point that they don't have this issue. But, again, unless there is hella inbredding, there isn't a biological component there. As far as their familial relationship dynamic goes, I'm not sure about societal relationships between aunt and nephew perception wise, but I believe until a few decades ago, there wasn't a taboo on marrying your cousin--this is a recent thing. (I couldn't be wrong). But, since this is based upon a different time, there would be less of a taboo, especially because they aren't brother and sister. Dany would be okay with it and I believe it wouldn't be the end of the world for Jon. I've literally read like .5% of the book, but weren't Ned's parents related, hell, isn't most of those who hold houses or fought in the battle of five kings related somehow???

Lastly, Dany and Jon literally had no relationship prior to them meeting in Dragonstone nor were they aware of their bloodties. I doubt it would something that turned them on either like it did with Jamie and Cersei. 

So, because of these reason: lack of relationship, how they're related to each other and what it means for genetics, as well as the fact that ancestral marriages were practiced, but not siblings (just the Targaryens--I think), it's not a thing for me. I think they're great together and I'm excited/anxious to see what's next. lol

ETA: FDR and Elenor Roosevelt were cousins. I believe many cousins married each other in the early 20th century and prior centuries. Again, I know there is a difference between cousins and aunt and nephew, but there isn't an established relationship that acknowledges this and they're like the same age give or take a few years.

ITA, Dany and Jon are nothing like Jamie and Cersei, and I'm rooting for them, too. Queen Victoria married her cousin Albert. It was expected and quite common not that long ago.

That said, assuming the GOT world follows the same genetics we do, Jamie and Cersei are no more genetically similar than any brother and sister with the same parents, because they're fraternal twins. No way can twins of both sexes be anything but fraternal (it's not a single egg that split early in development, but two different eggs fertilized at the same time.) Identical twins have exactly the same DNA. Jamie and Cersei did share a womb and are of the same age, and like you said grew up close, so their sexual attraction is unnatural.

40 minutes ago, glowbug said:

I'm pretty sure in the books (if they're ever released...not holding my breath) it will be revealed that Rhaegar took Lyanna as a second wife, which Targaryens did historically. The show probably went with the annulment explanation because Targaryen polygamy hasn't been established in the show and they didn't want to waste time explaining it. An annulment wouldn't require any explanation and it wouldn't feel like it came out of no where for non-book readers. 

Interesting. Why did Rhaegar keep it a secret then? He was the crown prince -- why not declare he wants her for a second wife, regardless of what Robert Baratheon wanted, and make the Starks hand her over? He was in the power position as the future king, after all.

[nilyank]

So thanks to Bran's Three Raven vision we know that Jon is Aegon. Thanks to Sam, we know that Jon is a bastard because his biological parents got married first.

However, that isn't necessarily proof. There is no dna test that could prove Jon's claim even if he wanted it which he doesn't. The only way Jon could get his claim on the Iron Throne is for him to fight for it or if Dany cedes that his claim is stronger than hers. Which I find disquieting. I loved the idea of the young girl taken into foreign lands who amasses armies loyal to her because of her deeds has to lose the throne to the man who was the special love child and maybe savior of the world. And the only way that she would get on the throne is if she marries Jon or he dies and then she is next in line.

I am never going to be okay with any of the incest. While Dany might be okay with it due to the way she was raised, her conflict comes because Jon has a stronger claim to her throne. Jon won't be okay with the incest. He was raised as a Stark and that wasn't the norm for them.

[MadMouse]

About Dany and Jon.

 

The incest, yeah for us its kinda gross but we have to remember this is a world where the Targaryens married brother to sister pretty consistently. And even other houses like the Starks, had cousin marriages and uncle/niece ones too. So I can't see this being a huge issue, sure it might cause the initial oh shit but its nothing truly out of the ordinary for the noble houses of Westeros.

 

The other thing is I see people say this isn't something Martin would do, having the two main heroes fall in love. That he's not writing a traditional fantasy series, thats where they have it wrong. I can't remember the interview exactly but he was talking about how he hated stories were the low born hero would insult the prince and win the princess's heart, that in reality the guy would be drawn and quartered. That's what he's writing, a realistic fantasy where doing stupid shit gets you killed. Robb and Ned are perfect examples of that. He's given us the traditional fantasy couple, in Rhaegar and Lyanna. In any other story they would be the heroes and Robert the villain. But instead they both die. But we also have the traditional hero in Jon Snow, a hidden prince raised as bastard. He's Martin's King Arthur, both are sons of the dragon. All the things Jon goes through are your typical hero's journey with a darker edge but again with Martin the minute he makes a stupid decision, marching on Wintefell. He pays the price. And then you have Dany, the beautiful princess who's sold off and raped. Goes through own journey and in Tyrion's own word's becomes a conqueror, with teats. So having these two characters fall for each other would be the farthest from traditional fantasy couples you could have and that's not even counting the aunt/nephew part.

Just like R+L=J was hinted out at throughout the books, so was Jon and Dany.

[GrailKing]

17 hours ago, Constantinople said:

I know Bran's visions are supposed to be true, but it did occur to me that the charge of Littlefinger  betraying Ned was based on spectral evidence, the same sort of evidence used in the Salem Witch Trials.

Bran would have also seen Sandor there, so at worst, they jail LF and question Sandor.

[Minneapple]

1 hour ago, Nanrad said:

Now when it comes to cousins, aunts, etc, there is enough diversity in the genes to the point that they don't have this issue. But, again, unless there is hella inbredding, there isn't a biological component there. As far as their familial relationship dynamic goes, I'm not sure about societal relationships between aunt and nephew perception wise, but I believe until a few decades ago, there wasn't a taboo on marrying your cousin--this is a recent thing. (I couldn't be wrong). But, since this is based upon a different time, there would be less of a taboo, especially because they aren't brother and sister. Dany would be okay with it and I believe it wouldn't be the end of the world for Jon. I've literally read like .5% of the book, but weren't Ned's parents related, hell, isn't most of those who hold houses or fought in the battle of five kings related somehow???

 

Genetically Jon and Dany are actually closer to siblings than they are to a regular old aunt and nephew. Dany and Rhaegar's parents were siblings, so were their grandparents. 

I would guess that aunt/nephew incest is a bigger taboo and illegal in more places than cousin incest because aunts and uncles are often parental figures to their nieces and nephews. 

Dany may be okay with the incest; she will probably be more thrown by the "there goes my claim to the Iron Throne" thing, which is a big part of her identity.

[Oscirus]

So about the lannister brothers, I love that Jamie was the first one to defend his brother once Euron started  bullying Tyrion even if I do have to give Dany Jon and the rest of that crew back there the side eye for not saying anything.

[YaddaYadda]

4 hours ago, Andromeda said:

Interesting. Why did Rhaegar keep it a secret then? He was the crown prince -- why not declare he wants her for a second wife, regardless of what Robert Baratheon wanted, and make the Starks hand her over? He was in the power position as the future king, after all.

A lot of people forget that whole Knight of the Laughing Tree episode and how Aerys wanted the mystery knight unmasked and brought to him because in his words, they were no friend of his. What if months later, he finally has a name and that his son whom he believes is plotting against him, lied to protect her? Aerys in his paranoid mind, with Varys whispering in his ear, with a small council made of ass-kissers and flatterers who have encouraged Aerys to not trust his son, this is as good a proof as they'll ever have against him even if it's shaky as best. We've seen how the truth gets twisted around to become something entirely different. I've posted this speculation in the R+L thread. What happened at Harrenhal is a loose thread and someone always tells. 

[Macbeth]

6 hours ago, Andromeda said:

I have a strong feeling the whole "annulment/second marriage" plot for Rhaegar and Lyanna is an afterthought, probably one George had and passed on to D&D. It just doesn't fit that well with the history as we've been told it.

But George/D&D wanted Jon to be the "legitimate" heir, even though it seems unnecessary to me. As a bastard, he could still have a claim on the throne if he were the lone offspring of the crown prince. (There's a reason Joffrey had all the Baratheon children killed, except Gendry who escaped.)

The whole "He's not a Bastard" idea really pisses me off.  It comes off as standard soap opera trope.  And GOT is all about breaking tropes.  Jon and Dany being related, and having no idea, and their blood relationship is being discussed by Bran as they are making love - is brilliant.  Jon and Dany are the couple, people should be shipping in the standard tale, but given their blood relationship, it makes a lot of fans, like me, go "Yeesh,"  So the Jon "Not a Bastard" Snow" is standard trope and pissing me off.

But there was a good summary of this season, I can't find the link, stated that once the Wights become the enemy, GOT is now a standard fantasy tale.  There can be no shades of grey when everything is now black and white.

And I am stating this based on no facts - that is the reason why GRRM had a problem finishing off the books. He would rather spend more time exploring the world then deal with the ending where it is the basic trope of the good guys defeating the bad guys.  Even if it means many of the good guys don't survive.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Macbeth

[ACW]

12 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

Cersei looked pretty excited about the elephants, but I don't think they fare well in Antartic environments, which is what Westeros is about to become so...

Woolly mammoths FTW!

[Notwisconsin]

6 hours ago, Nanrad said:

ETA: FDR and Elanor Roosevelt were cousins. I believe many cousins married each other in the early 20th century and prior centuries. Again, I know there is a difference between cousins and aunt and nephew, but there isn't an established relationship that acknowledges this and they're like the same age give or take a few years.

FDR and Elanor were FIFTH cousins.That's very, very different than say, brother and sister or First cousins. Going back far enough, all ethnic group members are cousins, and humanity has a single common ancestor "The mitocrondrial Eve" dating back a quarter million years ago. When does it stop being incest? I'm not sure, but the Roosevelts aren't it.