S07.E07: The Dragon And The Wolf

[Bryce Lynch]

36 minutes ago, henripootel said:

No belief necessary - Qhorin flat out said this, and it was obvious from the context.  I was just countering the idea that Jon is incapable of doing a single thing that even might be interpreted as 'dishonorable'.  Jon did a hard thing when he needed to, he's clearly capable of shutting the hell up in front of an enemy.  

OK, I see.  I don't really think going undercover is "dishonorable", and I think Jon was uncomfortable even doing that.  I think Jon could much more easily reconcile that to his sense of honor than running a big con on Dany or swearing an oath to Cersei that he knew he had no intention of keeping.  

[Shimmergloom]

2 hours ago, Oscirus said:

It's funny that you keep talking about  the women when men like Brandon, Tyrion , Ned, King Robert  etc were all forced into marriages for the good of their houses.  If you're not willing to do whats good for your house than give up all the privileges associated with the name or stfu.  You're still putting a 21st century mindset onto this thing, but that's not how people operated and if Rhaegar didn't show up, she would've went through with the marriage. 

So no, Lyanna is no victim, she's just a spoiled brat who caused the near destruction of her house and the death of untold people because a handsome boy was into her.

And we have plenty of reference to men who didn't like there forced marriages as well.  Case in point, apparently Rhaegar.  Also Robb, Edmure(until he saw Roslin) and Loras.  The main difference is of course that the men get to choose whether they force their wives to have sex.  The women get no say so. 

Tyrion got to choose to not rape Sansa.  Sansa had no say so.

I think a lifetime of rape from Robert, was not something Lyanna was going to accept.

[Hana Chan]

2 minutes ago, Francie said:

In that basis, the allies in WWII should never have followed FDR or Winston Churchill (who was a war cord despondent with a privileged title).

Sometimes the best leaders are not the best soldiers. 

Except that Churchill did serve combat duties in his youth. 

Sansa has skills as an administrator, but the entire North is facing a war unlike anything they'd ever faced in their history. The idea of choosing someone who is a paper pusher over someone who is ready and has the skills to lead armies and forge military alliances makes no real sense. The only ones supporting Sansa to rule are those who who have no loyalty, or who think that they can benefit by her taking the title (like Littlefinger).

[screamin]

45 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Thank you! I won't take away from Sansa that she's a good administrator, but the idea that she is more worthy to rule the North when Jon has shed blood by the gallon in the defense of the people is really offensive to me. He didn't leave Winterfell to take a long holiday in Dorne, sipping wine while Sansa slaves away. He made an alliance pact with a powerful ally and on terms most favorable to the North. He brought word to the southern lands about the threat that the North is facing, nearly losing his life in order to secure the physical evidence. He has served the North very capably. 

And given how long it took for Sansa to recognize that Littlefinger was manipulating her against her family before she dealt with him, and even then, she didn't dirty her hands to do it.  I don't see why she deserves the power more than Jon does. The moment that Sansa gets out from behind her high table and puts herself physically on the line for her people, my opinion may change. But not before then.

AFAIK, Elizabeth I never actually went into battle, though she made great speeches to the troops, and history recognizes her as a competent queen. I think Sansa, due to the politician position, single status and red hair, might be intended as a deliberate parallel.

Edited August 28, 2017 by screamin

[Bryce Lynch]

5 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

I think we have a very different view on this character. He doesn't care about his "honor," he cares about his "duty." He continually upholds what is right - to be the shield that guards the realms of men - at any personal cost to himself. He allows himself to be branded a traitor for his duty to the Watch. He lied to do this. 

In this way he is like Ned, who ruined his honor to uphold his duty to his sister.

At the same time he's not like the "image" everyone has of Ned, which is "honorable to a fault."

I dont think he's falling into that trap again. All the other Starks are catching on to the game. What is his arc at this point? That he fell in love and went on to win the great war? 

That could be Jon's arc, if they decide to go with a happy ending, which isn't out of the question.  Just because the good guys lose quite often in GOT, doesn't mean they can't end it with a win for the good guys.

I think we could also see either Jon or Dany die and the other reign, or possibly both die and the heir they probably conceived last night reigns.  

I just don't see a "Jon was deceiving Dany all along." plot as plausible.  It is way out of character for Jon, and Dany is rather suspicious and is surrounded by suspicious advisers. I could possibly see Jon or Dany betray the other at some point (though I doubt it), but I can't see this being Jon running a long con.  

[Amerilla]

Here, ultimately, is my problem with the whole boatsex thing: it was preceded by multiple episodes of dwelling on Dany's barrenness (or lack thereof) and voiced over with an explanation of the real family tree...to the point where it felt less like a "love scene" than the somewhat-perfunctory insemination of a woman by her own nephew -- not out of any great or enduring love, since their entire relationship has consisted of starting at each other while making questionable tactical decisions, but out of the plot's need to knock Dany up with The Next Generation as we hurtle towards the end of this generation's chapter.

That being said, Kit has a VERY nice bum, and the scene was mercifully short, so I'm complaining too much. 

[Bryce Lynch]

7 minutes ago, Shimmergloom said:

And we have plenty of reference to men who didn't like there forced marriages as well.  Case in point, apparently Rhaegar.  Also Robb, Edmure(until he saw Roslin) and Loras.  The main difference is of course that the men get to choose whether they force their wives to have sex.  The women get no say so. 

Tyrion got to choose to not rape Sansa.  Sansa had no say so.

I think a lifetime of rape from Robert, was not something Lyanna was going to accept.

Sansa actually implicitly offered her consent to Tyrion on their wedding night by starting to undress.  She didn't want to do it, but I think she felt it was her duty.  You can consent to things you don't want to do.  You could argue that Tywin was, in a sense, trying to "rape" Tyrion.  He put tremendous pressure on Tyrion to have sex with Sansa, and Tyrion put no pressure on Sansa.  

In most of those arranged, political, marriages, it probably wouldn't be "rape" as much as the women either being fine with it, trying to make the best of it,  or reluctantly doing their "duty".  

Lyanna seemed to be a very free spirited, strong willed woman, so Robert might have actually had to rape her, as she might never have consented.  

[domina89]

1 hour ago, DigitalCount said:

I'm pretty sure we even heard the sound of Gregor unsheathing his sword when Cersei nodded, and Jaime visibly reacted to it before saying "I don't believe you."

Someone on Reddit interestingly pointed out these were also the last words Tywin spoke to Cersei in "The Children" (4x10).

[Oscirus]

13 minutes ago, Shimmergloom said:

And we have plenty of reference to men who didn't like there forced marriages as well.  Case in point, apparently Rhaegar.  Also Robb, Edmure(until he saw Roslin) and Loras.  The main difference is of course that the men get to choose whether they force their wives to have sex.  The women get no say so. 

Tyrion got to choose to not rape Sansa.  Sansa had no say so.

I think a lifetime of rape from Robert, was not something Lyanna was going to accept.

Except  she did nothing about it until Rhaegar came along. So yea she would've accepted it. Not a woman's right issue but a choosing a cute boy over my duty to my family one

[patchwork]

If nothing else this proves we desperately need a Robert's Rebellion mini series so we can understand exactly what happened.

These flashbacks aren't doing Rhaeger and Lyanna any favours and they raise more questions than they answer. 

[Macbeth]

                                                                          MISSING

 

NAME                                                       LAST SEEN                     POSSIBLE WHEREABOUTS  

GHOST                                                      SEASON 6                     WINTERFELL, CASTLE BLACK

 

                                                          IF  FOUND PLEASE CONTACT        

                                                                 HIS LEGIONS OF FANS

[YaddaYadda]

1 minute ago, Oscirus said:

Except  she did nothing about it until Rhaegar came along. So yea she would've accepted it. Not a woman's right issue but a choosing a cute boy over my duty to my family one

A cute boy is oversimplifying the issue. Robert wasn't some troll living under the bridge. He was called a maiden's dream. He was tall and handsome. So maybe it has nothing at all to do with looks and whatever it is runs deeper than that. 

[Bryce Lynch]

40 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Thank you! I won't take away from Sansa that she's a good administrator, but the idea that she is more worthy to rule the North when Jon has shed blood by the gallon in the defense of the people is really offensive to me. He didn't leave Winterfell to take a long holiday in Dorne, sipping wine while Sansa slaves away. He made an alliance pact with a powerful ally and on terms most favorable to the North. He brought word to the southern lands about the threat that the North is facing, nearly losing his life in order to secure the physical evidence. He has served the North very capably. 

And given how long it took for Sansa to recognize that Littlefinger was manipulating her against her family before she dealt with him, and even then, she didn't dirty her hands to do it.  I don't see why she deserves the power more than Jon does. The moment that Sansa gets out from behind her high table and puts herself physically on the line for her people, my opinion may change. But not before then.

I could see both sides.  Lineage is or was extremely important in some societies.  I think it brought needed stability.  While it might not always produce the best rulers, it avoided a lot of civil wars that caused death and instability. 

Also, the Northern Lords didn't proclaim Jon, Warden of the North, they proclaimed him King in the North, a title that had lasted many thousands of years, until the Targaryens and their dragons conquered the North about 300 years earlier.   It was not just an honor for Jon (or Robb before him), it was a Declaration of Independence.  Now he bends the knee to a "little girl" from the some house that conquered them?  How would we view George Washington if right after he was elected POTUS, he bent the knee to the English monarchy?

Now, Jon has good reasons for bending the knee to Danerys, but I do think he would have a lot of explaining to do.  Seems like a job for Davos.  He seems good at making the case for his bosses after they couldn't do it. :)

Edited August 28, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[Bryce Lynch]

6 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

                                                                          MISSING

 

NAME                                                       LAST SEEN                     POSSIBLE WHEREABOUTS  

GHOST                                                      SEASON 6                     WINTERFELL, CASTLE BLACK

 

                                                          IF  FOUND PLEASE CONTACT        

                                                                 HIS LEGIONS OF FANS

I would add: "Reward: 1000 Gold Dragons".  

[Pogojoco]

7 minutes ago, patchwork said:

If nothing else this proves we desperately need a Robert's Rebellion mini series so we can understand exactly what happened.

These flashbacks aren't doing Rhaeger and Lyanna any favours and they raise more questions than they answer. 

There is a whole bunch of story that is missing- post-Harrenhall up to that wedding we saw and Brandon calling Rhaeger out and getting arrested. Do we even know where Lyanna and Rhaeger ran away from?

[Bryce Lynch]

55 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

At least Jon was smart enough to take it from Qyburn to toast it.

I thought Qyburn might use it to make a more functional, but far less attractive,  prosthetic for Jaime. :)

Edited August 28, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[Tikichick]

7 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

FrankenGregor is a little different.  He is hidden under the armor, so nobody, except Qyburn, knows exactly what he is.  Plus, he seems to have some sort of real consciousness, as opposed to being a mindless killing machine, like the wight.  

I agree with you -- although in part I would quibble that from what is known of Gregor he's been a mindless killing machine since childhood -- or at least a budding one.

[screamin]

10 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I could see both sides.  Lineage is or was extremely important in some societies.  I think it brought needed stability.  While it might not always produce the best rulers, it avoided a lot of civil wars that caused death and instability. 

Also, the Northern Lords didn't proclaim Jon, Warden of the North, they proclaimed him King in the North, a title that had lasted many thousands of years, until the Targaryens and their dragons conquered the North about 300 years earlier.   It was not just an honor for Jon (or Robb before him), it was a Declaration of Independence.  Now he bends the knee to a "little girl" from the some house that conquered them?  How would we view George Washington if right after he was elected POTUS, he bent the knee to the English monarchy?

Now, Jon has good reasons for bending the knee to Danerys, but I do think he would have a lot of explaining to do.  Seems like a job for Davos.  He seems good at making the case for his bosses after they couldn't do it. :)

I was about to say that Lyanna Mormont should have the job of making another speech in support of Jon, but then it occurred to me that even she might not approve of the North losing its independence and Jon essentially giving up the kinghood they conferred on him to become a faithful lord again, and make his subjects Dany's subordinates without consulting them.

[patchwork]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I could see both sides.  Lineage is or was extremely important in some societies.  I think it brought needed stability.  While it might not always produce the best rulers, it avoided a lot of civil wars that caused death and instability. 

Also, the Northern Lords didn't proclaim Jon, Warden of the North, the proclaimed him King in the North, a title that had lasted many thousands of years, until the Targaryens and their dragons conquered the North about 300 years earlier.   It was not just an honor for Jon (or Robb before him), it was a Declaration of Independence.  Now he bends the knee to a "little girl" from the some house that conquered them?  How would we view George Washington if right after he was elected POTUS, he bent the knee to the English monarchy?

Now, Jon has good reasons for bending the knee to Danerys, but I do think he would have a lot of explaining to do.  Seems like a job for Davos.  He seems good at making the case for his bosses after they couldn't do it. :)

I agree, twice now the Northern houses have declared their independence and crowned one of their own as the king. Jon's focus is the army of the dead and he's happy to follow Dany if it means she'll help to fight his war but this is the same narrow thinking that got him killed by the Nights Watch. 

Jon is going to luck out because once news of the Wall breaking is known the Northern houses will fall in line behind Jon and Dany but serving another southern ruler isn't what they want.

Dany might intend to name him Warden of the North but I'm not sure she understands that Winterfell doesn't belong to Jon and the political side of his kingship wasn't exactly sorted out before he handed his authority over to someone else. 

[stagmania]

1 hour ago, Colorful Mess said:

Bend the knee. The one thing that was reiterated over and over from their first meeting. The one thing Dany burned other Lords for not doing...

...just happened off screen?

So your complaint is that you did not see him literally bend his knee? He was kind of laid up in bed at the time. 

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, patchwork said:

I agree, twice now the Northern houses have declared their independence and crowned one of their own as the king. Jon's focus is the army of the dead and he's happy to follow Dany if it means she'll help to fight his war but this is the same narrow thinking that got him killed by the Nights Watch. 

Jon is going to luck out because once news of the Wall breaking is known the Northern houses will fall in line behind Jon and Dany but serving another southern ruler isn't what they want.

Dany might intend to name him Warden of the North but I'm not sure she understands that Winterfell doesn't belong to Jon and the political side of his kingship wasn't exactly sorted out before he handed his authority over to someone else. 

The fact that he is really Aegon Targaryen, King of the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, etc., etc. might bail him out.  The Lords of the North might have less objection to losing their independence (which they really haven't had in 300 years) if one of their own, who grew up in the North and has Stark blood ruling from the Iron Throne.  

Either that, or if he becomes King of the Seven Kingdoms, he could grant the North independence, make Sansa Queen in the North and himself King of the Six Kingdoms.    

1 minute ago, stagmania said:

So your complaint is that you did not see him literally bend his knee? He was kind of laid up in bed at the time. 

Yeah, it would  be kind of like not accepting that Jaime had made a deal with someone because he didn't shake hands. :)

[Misplaced]

16 hours ago, AttackTurtle said:

Regardless of whether Jon pledged his loyalty to Cersei or Dany, Cersei was going to screw them ocer.  Euronext had already left by the time she announced she was going to help.

I don't know if this was intentional or an autocorrect typo, but it is the funniest thing I've read all day and I'm going to start calling him that ... it's oddly suitable!  

[Mya Stone]

Littlefinger's last words? 

 

"I." 

 

How perfect is that?

[Colorful Mess]

1 hour ago, MrWhyt said:

his duty is to the Northern Lords who named him their King and the people of the North, he has seen that the best way to carry out this duty is to ally with Daenerys. He has convinced her to put her fight for the throne aside for now and to defend the kingdoms of men. He did that by risking his life, showing her what the enemy was and swearing his fealty to her.

I don't disagree with this. We are reaching the same conclusions, with one exception - I believe he is accomplishing this, by making power moves over her. She is unaware that she has fallen for it, because he did it in a way that endeared him to her. His "fealty" to her (bending the knee in private, never public, so he could deny it if he wanted to if questioned by the Northern lords) is absolutely over the top in this ep. She even noticed how exaggerated he's being about it, in this episode - "You didn't have to do that." If he didn't have to then why is he doing it? Because he's just THAT head over heels for her?

I think that he wants her to believe that he fights FOR HER (and her dead bird). When if we know Jon Snow well enough, he's not doing this for her. He's doing this for the realm and, in a more personal sense, for his family. He did the same thing at the end of ADWD, by trying to fight for his family (Arya) and for the realm (wildlings at Hardhome) at the same time.

I do think he is capable of cunning.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Colorful Mess

[mac123x]

15 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The Lords of the North might have less objection to losing their independence (which they really haven't had in 300 years) if one of their own, who grew up in the North and has Stark blood ruling from the Iron Throne.  

That's quite possible. 

 

I'm also flashing back to Greatjon Umber's speech declaring Robb the KitN.  His rationale for independence was based on "we bent the knee for the dragons, but the dragons are all dead".  Well, now they're not -- Dany's got two.  King Jon is basically doing what Torren (The King Who Knelt) did, though for different reasons.  Torren knelt to avoid a slaughter by Aegon the Conquerer, while Jon is kneeling to avoid a slaughter by the Night King and friends.

 

Incidentally, I wonder if the three dragons got frisky while they were aimlessly circling Dragonstone, and laid a clutch or two of fresh dragon eggs.

[HunterHunted]

10 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The fact that he is really Aegon Targaryen, King of the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, etc., etc. might bail him out.  The Lords of the North might have less objection to losing their independence (which they really haven't had in 300 years) if one of their own, who grew up in the North and has Stark blood ruling from the Iron Throne.  

But that's the same reason that the Northern Lords should be supportive of Jon's alliance with Daenerys. At some point, she's going to need to produce an heir. The Northern Lords don't know anything about her possible infertility. There are only a handful of men alive who would be an acceptable King consort for Daenerys just based on the importance of their families: Jon, Tyrion, Jorah, Euron, Robin, Gendry, and Jaime. Of those, Jon is the preferred choice because of the banners pledged to him. While the Northerners don't want to be ruled by a southern ruler, in a generation they'd have a king or queen with Nothern blood.

[ulkis]

3 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

But that's the same reason that the Northern Lords should be supportive of Jon's alliance with Daenerys. At some point, she's going to need to produce an heir. The Northern Lords don't know anything about her possible infertility. There are only a handful of men alive who would be an acceptable King consort for Daenerys just based on the importance of their families: Jon, Tyrion, Jorah, Euron, Robin, Gendry, and Jaime. Of those, Jon is the preferred choice because of the banners pledged to him. While the Northerners don't want to be ruled by a southern ruler, in a generation they'd have a king or queen with Nothern blood.

I think though that would give them more of a reason to object, since the Targaryens are known for having a tendency to go mad. 

[Blonde Gator]

7 hours ago, Straycat80 said:

I liked this season and finale episode. One thing I was disappointed about was that they never showed us what happened to Yara or the two surviving sand snakes. 

Yara is in the hold of the Silence, hopefully still with her tongue intact, waiting for either (a) rescue by Theon or (b) as the living figure on Euron's bow-sprint as he attacks his next enemy (I'm guessing White Harbor).  Ellaria Sand & poor little Tyene are still chained to the wall in the black dungeons under the Red Keep.  Unfortunately, the pretty little Sand Snake (she of "bad pussy" fame, and Bron's potential squeeze) is probably dead from the poison on Cersei's lips when she gave her the kiss of death earlier this season.

[ulkis]

32 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Either that, or if he becomes King of the Seven Kingdoms, he could grant the North independence, make Sansa Queen in the North and himself King of the Six Kingdoms.    

I think that's a possibility, although I think Jon would hate King's Landing as much as Ned did.

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, ulkis said:

I think that's a possibility, although I think Jon would hate King's Landing as much as Ned did.

He and Dany might clean it up and make it nicer.  I think Ned hated the politics and backstabbing more than the location.  But, Jon did mention that there were more people crammed into that tiny piece of land than there are in all the North, so he probably would feel claustrophobic.  

Edited August 28, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[SimoneS]

17 minutes ago, mac123x said:

Incidentally, I wonder if the three dragons got frisky while they were aimlessly circling Dragonstone, and laid a clutch or two of fresh dragon eggs.

I bet they have. Just when it looks like Drogon is the last last. A clutch of baby dragons will turn up.

[GraceK]

1 minute ago, SimoneS said:

I bet they have. Just when it looks like Drogon is the last last. A clutch of baby dragons will turn up.

I would love that so much.

[SimoneS]

40 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The fact that he is really Aegon Targaryen, King of the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, etc., etc. might bail him out.  The Lords of the North might have less objection to losing their independence (which they really haven't had in 300 years) if one of their own, who grew up in the North and has Stark blood ruling from the Iron Throne.  

Either that, or if he becomes King of the Seven Kingdoms, he could grant the North independence, make Sansa Queen in the North and himself King of the Six Kingdoms.    

I am pretty sure that Dany isn't giving up her claim to any of her kingdoms in Westeros. She has always been willing to let her subjects have autonomy as long as they respect her rule and stop raiding and raping. Jon will have to take the same position.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, doram said:

Maybe they could move the seat of power to Winterfell.

 

"Dragons" in this case was figurative. Umber meant that the North bowed to the Targaryens, not the actual animals. 

Actually dragons was literal and figurative.  King Torrhen Stark knelt before Aegon the Conqueror because Aegon had dragons and he knew he could not defeat him.   It would be interesting if a new Aegon, this one with Stark blood, either frees the North or rules over it from the Iron Throne.  

[Miles]

2 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

It's really not. The Night King was able to breach the enchantments of the cave of the previous three eyed Raven, which the Children had protected, because Bran let the Night King touch him. Textually there's not much more explaining what caused the enchantments of the the Wall to fall.

There is no indication that the enchantments on the wall are the same that protected the three eyed raven. I'd expect the enchantsments on the wall to be made of stronger stuff and be more numerous.

There is also no indication that Bran has some kind of permanent mark on him. He let himself get touched, which burst the little magic bubble he was in, in that very moment. The night king could penetrate that bubble by using Bran as a conduit. There is no indication that they are currently still connected.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Miles

[HunterHunted]

5 minutes ago, ulkis said:

I think though that would give them more of a reason to object, since the Targaryens are known for having a tendency to go mad. 

That's true, but the North can't beat her. She has more troops and dragons. At a certain point, the best you could do is try to manage her lunacy like Joffrey. The northern obstinance is just as problematic as any of the presumed negatives of a southern ruler. Assuming she never signed off on letting Jon take the dragon glass or go on the wight hunt, Daenerys would have been privy to enough information to attempt to stop the army of the dead on her own. Daenerys could wage her war against Cersei and win the iron throne and only enter the war against the dead when the Northern forces were nearly decimated.

[TaurusRose]

2 hours ago, Francie said:

They sent him to forge an alliance or get dragonglass,  not become her subject by bending the knee.

And he did, so they can just get over it. They named him their king and he acted in what he thought was in the north's best interest. 

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, SimoneS said:

I am pretty sure that Dany isn't giving up her claim to any of her kingdoms in Westeros. She has always been willing to let her subjects have autonomy as long as they respect her rule and stop raiding and raping. Jon will have to take the same position.

It will be interesting to see how Dany reacts to finding out Jon is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne.  Initially, her claim to it was entirely based upon her belief that she was the rightful heir by birth.  It would be sort of hypocritical for her to deny Jon his birthright, once she learns his true identity.  

On the other hand, she has earned many other titles that she might think give her the right to rule Westeros, The Unburnt, Breaker of Chains, Khalessi of the Great Grass Sea, Queen of Meereen, and most importantly from a practical standpoint, Mother of Dragons.   If she has 2 dragons and Jon has none (assuming Rhaegal doesn't take Jon's side), he probably could not defeat her if she opposed him.  

Of course, this might be solved by them marrying.  

[Pogojoco]

As much as Qyburn is evil and all that, I'd be willing to let him come up with plans to kill wights and white walkers. He looked very interested in that wight. 

[Bryce Lynch]

9 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

And he did, so they can just get over it. They named him their king and he acted in what he thought was in the north's best interest. 

Personally, I don't mind Jon bending the knee.  But, I could see how the Northern Lords would see it as a betrayal.  He went to make an alliance, and technically speaking he surrendered the Northern Kingdom to Danerys instead.  Now, the relationship is really more of an alliance, but the Northern Lords might have a hard time understanding or believing this.  

Edited August 28, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[ulkis]

Just now, taurusrose said:

And he did, so they can just get over it. They named him their king and he acted in what he thought was in the north's best interest. 

Did he? I think he was more dazzled by what Dany had just done. I agree with you, though, that now wouldn't be the moment to object.

[SimoneS]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Of course, this might be solved by them marrying.  

This is exactly what I expect will happen. They will have tension when the truth comes out, Dany will get pregnant, they get married and it solves all the drama in one fell swoop. Dany still isn't going along with Jon giving up the Targaryen claim to the north. What is the point of have a kingdom if you lose it bit by bit. They get autonomy like the other kingdoms, not thing more. Besides, who wants to have unreliable neighbors like those northern lords, better to make sure they know that you are always watching them and are willing to put the hammer on them when they step out of line.

[Pogojoco]

4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

It will be interesting to see how Dany reacts to finding out Jon is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne.  Initially, her claim to it was entirely based upon her belief that she was the rightful heir by birth.  It would be sort of hypocritical for her to deny Jon his birthright, once she learns his true identity.  

On the other hand, she has earned many other titles that she might think give her the right to rule Westeros, The Unburnt, Breaker of Chains, Khalessi of the Great Grass Sea, Queen of Meereen, and most importantly from a practical standpoint, Mother of Dragons.   If she has 2 dragons and Jon has none (assuming Rhaegal doesn't take Jon's side), he probably could not defeat her if she opposed him.  

Of course, this might be solved by them marrying.  

The way that scene between them narrated by Bran- and given the rather hilarious footage of the two actors gagging at the incest idea, I don't think they are marrying. There are a lot of ways this could end, but I don't think an aunt marrying and ruling with her nephew is going to be how this thing is going to end. 

[SimoneS]

9 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

And he did, so they can just get over it. They named him their king and he acted in what he thought was in the north's best interest. 

They didn't send Jon to do anything. He went because he knew that they needed the dragonglass. The northern lords are dumbasses. They wanted to go home and stick their heads in the sand and then they rather die than Jon go to Dany. Eh, most of them will be dead soon enough which will solve that problem.

Edited August 28, 2017 by SimoneS

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, Pogojoco said:

The way that scene between them narrated by Bran- and given the rather hilarious footage of the two actors gagging at the incest idea, I don't think they are marrying. There are a lot of ways this could end, but I don't think an aunt marrying and ruling with her nephew is going to be how this thing is going to end. 

i don't think the Aunt-Nephew thing will be the obstacle.  They are Targaryens.   I could potentially, see death, jealously, betrayal, politics, etc. keeping them from marrying, though.  

[YaddaYadda]

Did they leave out all talk of Maester Aemon until next season because they wanted to get the Jon reveal out of the way and get as much impact out of Jon realizing he had more than Benjen at the Wall?

Yes, I'm a very bitter person that that sweet old man got no mentions at all.

[herbz]

Myrcella is probably more on Tywin than Tyrion- had Tywin not been so ruthless during the sack of King's Landing, Dorne wouldn't have harboured such hatred for the Lannisters in the first place (it is my unpopular opinion that Tywin is an overrated strategist- by operating in such underhanded fashion he created long-term enemies everywhere and by neglecting to raise and instruct his kids properly his precious legacy disintegrates in a flash). Tommen is entirely on Cersei, but she'll never admit that. Tyrion being in alliance with Ellaria Sand is something Cersei would've been justified in throwing at him (I feel like they should've made a bigger deal of this in Episode 1). 

I'm absolutely certain in the books that Jaime has a place in the endgame and that Cersei does not, which is why it's been frustrating to see his character sacrificed on the altar of hers for so long- presumably because they love Lena Headey, which I can understand, but it hasn't served the story or the characters well. I think she'll be around right until the very, very end as well and with the miscarriage postponed it seems as if D&D are refusing to cut the twin's cord completely. That's a bit annoying and I'm ready to see Cersei go now, as great a villain as she has been. Jaime's a very internal character but I do hope he gets to try and explain why he stayed for so long next season- I could juuuuuuuuust about buy him this year as a thoroughly broken down man who didn’t have anywhere else to go and was resigned to his fate but that's mainly on NCW because it’s not like the script sought to explore it. 

The Jon Snow of the books is absolutely capable of the cunning required to be playing a long game with Daenerys. I'm not getting any hints at all in the show that he's anything other than the smitten noble hero. 

Qyburn honestly made me giggle a bit with his reaction to the wight. Guy just saw his dream made reality.

Edited August 28, 2017 by herbz

[YaddaYadda]

2 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

They didn't send Jon to do anything. He went because he knew that they needed the dragonglass. The northern lords are dumbasses. They wanted to home and stick their heads in the sand and then they rather die than Jon go to Dany. Eh, most of them will be dead soon enough which will solve that problem.

Pretty much.

They didn't want him to go anywhere. They were against it from the word go and bitched about it because he was gone too long. So they can have a tall glass of STFU.

Edited August 28, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[Pogojoco]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

i don't think the Aunt-Nephew thing will be the obstacle.  They are Targaryens.   I could potentially, see death, jealously, betrayal, politics, etc. keeping them from marrying, though.  

But he might be a Targ by blood, but he  wasn't raised that way. He gave a whole speech to Theon about Ned Stark being his father in this episode. He worships the Old Gods, who abhor incest. If he doesn't have an issue, it'll be another example of the writers trying to speed through plot points. And I don't think Dany is going to shrug her shoulders. Her whole arc has been "I have a right to sit on the Iron Throne." Bran's little revelation is a major game changer. 

[herbz]

1 minute ago, YaddaYadda said:

Pretty much.

They didn't want him to go anywhere. They were against it from the word go and bitched about it because he was gone too long. So they can have a tall glass of STFU.

The North in the show makes no sense to me. Isn't their whole point that they don't do petty political squabbling like the South? I do like Sansa, and I think she's shown herself capable, but I really really hope 8x01 doesn't include a scene where she snipes at Jon in front of the council for bending the knee.