S07.E07: The Dragon And The Wolf

[Oscirus]

Just now, Blonde Gator said:

Oh yeah, speaking of Greyworm......

Who did the throat slashing better?  Arya, or Greyworm in Mereen with those two miserable slavers?

I'm thinking Arya.......stupid Peter never even saw her coming.  That was awesome!  Greyworm got a twofer, but I'm voting Arya.

Greyworm, he held the pose as he slit their throats.

[alaynestone]

Thank god this episode was much longer - there really was a lot to cover.

Knew that Cersei would never agree that easily.  Was worried that Tyrion was gonna die by her and then Jaime.  Also, I thought it was a little weird that she didn't have Tyrion killed.  I can only think that she's hoping to make him truly suffer before killing him.

So.. Jaime is definitely off team Cersei, right?  And Cersei is definietly NOT sending her army North then?  She's just gonna chill in the South?

SO FREAKING GLAD that Sansa & Arya were two-timing Littlefinger.  I actually cannot believe that he's finally gone - I'm gonna have to watch the badass way that Arya quickly disposed of him a couple times.  I'm guessing that Bran was having secret slumber parties with the girls and filling them in on all that Littlefinger did. 

SO glad that we have the two sisters actually united.  I'd be so sad if they really had been against each other.  The Starks need to stay loyal to each other.

Sam meeting up again with Bran at the beginning was pretty funny.  "I'm the three eyed raven."  ".... I don't know what that is."  LOL.  

I started squealing when Bran started to reveal Jon's origin's to Sam -  I really thought they weren't going to be able to cover that anymore this season.  And then Sam actually showed us he listened and registered what Gilly found!!  AND we got another flashback - with the first sighting of Rhaegar!  Sidenote - I was wearing my glasses and they need to be updated with a new prescription, but was it me or did he look way too much like Viserys?  I really didn't like that.  Shouldn't his hair have been at least shoulder-length?

I mean, I get it - Viserys and him are brothers, but Rhaegar has always been seen as the most beautiful man in the world so...

And that scene was great, but it was kind of ruined that it happened during the 'yes, we saw this coming a mile-away' incest sex scene with Jon and Daenerys, literally as Bran says basically saying Daenerys is his aunt, lol.  Ugh.  I'm so not on board for this pairing and I really feel like the only one.  But, Bran did basically say that Jon is the actual heir to the throne, and I can't see Daenerys easily giving that up to Jon.  So, the relationship doesn't look like it's going to work out..

AND PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD.  Please do not have Daenerys get pregnant from this. I beg of you.  Even though I know we got another babies anvil this episode.

 

Finally, the end scene - damn, we're fucked.  I died a little of the inside seeing the Night King riding Viserion.  And was it just me, or did Viserion seem much stronger in death than he ever was in life? He looked pretty powerful.

 

Oh!  And we finally know Jon's Targaryen name and it's..... already fucking taken.  I mean, what the hell?  Aegon?  Is that not what Rhaegar named his first son?  I'm actually pretty pissed they did this - essentially re-used a name??  WTF.

[dirtypop90]

18 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

If one of them is going to die, I think it's going to be Jon.  Dany learning to rule has been an overarching plot of the series, whereas Jon's purpose has been to unite all humans against the undead army, with little thought of what comes next after the humans have won.  Plus, the anvils were being dropped that Dany will get pregnant with a Wolf Dragon heir.   

A) that could just be what they want us to believe or b)  dany could die in childbirth or shortly after. 

I dont know what to think anymore because jon/dany is not being treated as an endgame couple. You dont not show the first kiss, not show them taking off clothes and "seeing" each other for the first time, and not give them an afterglow scene.  And there was no dialogue at all. These writers are not great at romance but they can do better than this and have.

Edited August 28, 2017 by dirtypop90

[that one guy]

51 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I needed him to not look so much like Viserys.  Yes I remember that sick fuck.

Well, they were brothers, and their own parents were brother and sister, so you were definitely going to see some family resemblance there. I like that they've done this with the casting. Robb, Jon, Bran and Arya look like siblings (er, cousins), and Sansa looks a bit like Cat. It's an important way to remind people who's family when they aren't on screen together for seasons at a time. 

While they don't really look that much alike, Kit Harrington has been acting more and more like Sean Bean as Jon grows into authority. When he turned he back on Theon and said "then why are you still talking to me," everything about his performance in that moment was Ned Stark. Which was awesome, because it went with what he had told Theon perfectly, that Ned wasn't his father but was a part of him anyway. That applies to both of them.

Littlefinger's death wasn't that much of a surprise, because I never believed the Stark sisters would try to kill each other. But with Cersei and Jaime I felt it could go either way. Lena Headey's convinced me that Cersei didn't know what she was going to do until the moment came. Ironically not killing Jaime probably sealed her fate, because now he'll tell everyone else she means to betray them.

Her trap went off perfectly, otherwise. So did the Night King's. The odd behavior of the wights last week actually makes perfect sense - the whole "kidnap a wight" mission was really a "kidnap a dragon" op. Did the White Walkers even have another plan? Or has this been the plan ever since the dragons hatched in Season 1?

[Tesla]

Tormund had better have some superman survival skills, because this show owes me giant ginger ass-kicking babies from all the Brienne/Tormund teases they put me through with no payoff.  ?

[Kanner]

I'm confused about Bran making it a point to call Jon a Sand. I know it is the bastard name in Dorne. But everyone knew Jon was not born in the North. Were they ok with Snow because they didn't know where in the South he was born? Or the writers just needed a lead in for the true Targ reveal?

[Tippi]

Maybe Tyrion is thinking that Dany falling in love with and marrying Jon would not be the best strategic match she could make for the husband of the Queen.  Or maybe he thinks that Dany loving Jon will cause her to take too many risks to save him and thereby jeopardize her own life.  I'm just trying to find something other than Tyrion is jealous, though that could be case.

Liked how the Sansa and Arya storyline turned out in the end!  LF had really been turned into an annoying bit player by the end.  I liked AG but am not going to be missing LF.

I would have thought Jamie and Brienne would have had a bigger interaction.  I was expecting her to get him to realize that there is no trusting Cersei.  Glad he left in the end.

My favorite characters from episode 1 on were Jon and Dany.  I am glad to see them in love, would have liked more of a love scene.  Kit and Emilia go well together and I have bought Jon & Dany's love story.  Would have liked more from the Rhaegar and Lyanna scene too, but D & D really rushed everything.  Their path is not GRRM's, but they are trying to get everyone where they need to be for endgame. 

If Rhaegar was convinced his son with Lyanna would save humanity, and if this son is the only one who could lead the fight and destroy the Night King, was he right to do what he did? 

Wish Bran had more screen time and more to do.  I like Isaac's acting and wish he had more to sink his teeth into.

Speaking of sinking teeth into--the battles between the living dragons and Viserion are going to be epic!

[Oscirus]

So Cersei's plan relies on Tyrion chasing her down and "convincing" her that they need her. What happens if Dany and Jon just say we're fucked, let's go and just take off?

[Blonde Gator]

5 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

A) that could just be what they want us to believe or b)  dany could die in childbirth or shortly after. 

I dont know what to think anymore because jon/dany is not being treated as an endgame couple. You dont not show the first kiss, not show them taking off clothes and "seeing" each other for the first, and not give them an afterglow scene.  And there was no dialogue at all. These writers are not great at romance but they can do better than this and have.

Good point.  We get all of the foreplay between a eunuch & Missandei.....and then just Kit's bare butt? 

Agree....I call foul!

[Oscirus]

2 minutes ago, Tippi said:

If Rhaegar was convinced his son with Lyanna would save humanity, and if this son is the only one who could lead the fight and destroy the Night King, was he right to do what he did? 

If your actions causes the death of thousands of people that you're supposed to protect,  you lose the moral high ground. 

[SeanC]

12 minutes ago, ulkis said:

Does anyone think it's a possibility that they'll get rid of the status of bastard altogether?

That would completely destroy the system of noble inheritance that Westeros is built on and cause chaos.

[AttackTurtle]

My favorite moment was between the Hound and Brienne.  I loved that they both just wanted to protect Arya and that he seemed so proud of her.  

We definitely deserved a first kiss between Jon & Dany; however their moment in the dragon pit was fairly intimate.  

I think Sansa was playing LF for a while.  I don't know why it took so long to get rid of him, but maybe she had to convince the Knights of the Vale first & needed evidence.  I liked how she referred back to how LF drove a wedge b/t her mom & aunt.  

No wasy is Tormund dead.

Cersie is out of her damn mind blaming Tyrion for all of her kids death.   

Regardless of whether Jon pledged his loyalty to Cersei or Dany, Cersei was going to screw them ocer.  Euronext had already left by the time she announced she was going to help.

[SimoneS]

12 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

A) that could just be what they want us to believe or b)  dany could die in childbirth or shortly after. 

I dont know what to think anymore because jon/dany is not being treated as an endgame couple. You dont not show the first kiss, not show them taking off clothes and "seeing" each other for the first, and not give them an afterglow scene.  And there was no dialogue at all. These writers are not great at romance but they can do better than this and have.

I am pretty sure the show presented Jon and Daenerys's sex scene with the cut scenes and voiceover to ramp up the dramatic reveal that Jon is also a Targaryen heir, not because they are not "endgame."

Think back to all the time devoted to Jon and Ygritte and Dany and Drogo's romances. In the end, it meant nothing as both Drogo and Ygritte are dead.

Edited August 28, 2017 by SimoneS

[GraceK]

I'm wondering if Tyrion will end up betraying Dany. There was so many mentions of how he loved Tommen and Myrcella  and  how he convinced Dany not to bring Fire and blood cause he didn't want his family hurt...I also didn't like the way the scene between him and Cersei cut out when he realized she was pregnant. It's pretty ominous to me. 

[Oscirus]

2 minutes ago, AttackTurtle said:

Cersie is out of her damn mind blaming Tyrion for all of her kids death.   

I want to say she's delusional, but she's not wrong. Not even Tyrion could argue that.

[Binns]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

Definition of satisfaction: the feeling that comes when watching Littlefinger's face when he realized he couldn't worm his way out of this one.

We officially don't need Lady Stoneheart. All hail the Queen(s) of the North!

I don't care if it's incest, Jon and Dany's boatsex was HOT.

And now begins the long-ass wait for the final season.

Thank God Kit and Emilia found their chemistry, am I right? 

[TobinAlbers]

NC-W got me when he heard how many wights they saw coming and his face just fell from shock and absolute fear. Same as when Jamie saw the dragon a few episodes back, he sells the seriousness of the situation because when HE is shitting his pants, you know things are bad.

Nothing really could make me like Rhaegar given the crap he caused trying to fulfill the prophecy, but, yeah, I expected him to be...more than what we finally saw of him. Bigger, stronger features, more luxurious hair...something!

I get the feeling Cersei's fate is to die in childbirth after giving birth to a child with dwarfism like her mother.  Or that her 'child' is actually a malignant tumor that will kill her.

[dirtypop90]

3 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I am pretty sure the show presented Jon and Daenerys's sex scene with the cut scenes and voiceover to ramp up the dramatic reveal that Jon is also a Targaryen heir, not because they are not "endgame." 

but you get they could've done that with the actual sex and still given them a first kiss, foreplay, and an afterglow scene but chose not to? It's weird, and not typically how endgame couples or epic romances are treated. As someone else pointed out, even Missandei and Grey worm's sex scene was longer and they got all of those things. I just think it's odd. agree to disagree.

Edited August 28, 2017 by dirtypop90

[Blonde Gator]

2 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I'm wondering if Tyrion will end up betraying Dany. There was so many mentions of how he loved Tommen and Myrcella  and  how he convinced Dany not to bring Fire and blood cause he didn't want his family hurt...I also didn't like the way the scene between him and Cersei cut out when he realized she was pregnant. It's pretty ominous to me. 

I think the "betrayal for love [scorned]" will be Daario Naharis.  He is the leader of the Gold Cloaks in the series.  But that's just one of several possibilities...Tyrion, Missandei, or Grey Worm being the others who immediately spring to mind.

[SimoneS]

3 minutes ago, AttackTurtle said:

Cersie is out of her damn mind blaming Tyrion for all of her kids death.   

Regardless of whether Jon pledged his loyalty to Cersei or Dany, Cersei was going to screw them ocer.  Euronext had already left by the time she announced she was going to help.

Again, this is why Tyrion is now a fool. He knows Cersei. How could he ever believe she would stand down or even help? If anything, he has made it worse. Daenerys will be furious at her deception and will come for her hard and fast after they deal with the NK. I expect Cersei to burn down King's Landing with wildfire anyway. 

[anamika]

34 minutes ago, doram said:

???????

The show has thrown nuance into the window. 

Theon wasn't Ned's adopted son. He was Ned's prisoner. This was treated with a lot of complexity and nuance in the earlier seasons where even though we loathed Theon for betraying Robb, we understood why he did it. And we were more inclined to blame Robb for not taking Catelyn's advice to keep Theon with him and demand the Ironborn's support - than we were to blame Theon for doing what was practically inevitable the moment he returned to the Iron Island.

Actually, I loved the Jon/Theon scene - one of the few scenes this show has done with nuance, I thought.

Yes, Theon was a child hostage and what Ned did was wrong. Yes, we understood Theon's POV and why he betrayed the Starks.  But it still does not excuse his betrayal of Robb's trust, what he did to Bran/Rickon and all his terrible actions (Killing innocent children) afterwards. From Jon's POV (Someone who sees Ned as the best person ever) Ned and the Starks treated Theon well and like one of the family and for Theon himself, his biggest regret was betraying Robb:

Quote

Robb who had been more a brother to Theon than any son born of Balon Greyjoy's loins. Murdered at the Red Wedding, butchered by the Freys. I should have been with him. Where was I? I should have died with him.

Towards the end of the books, this is Theon regretting his actions:

Quote

The night was windless, the snow drifting straight down out of a cold black sky, yet the leaves of the heart tree were rustling his name. "Theon," they seemed to whisper, "Theon."

The old gods, he thought. They know me. They know my name. I was Theon of House Greyjoy. I was a ward of Eddard Stark, a friend and brother to his children. "Please." He fell to his knees. "A sword, that's all I ask. Let me die as Theon, not as Reek." Tears trickled down his cheeks, impossibly warm. "I was ironborn. A son … a son of Pyke, of the islands."

 GRRM said of Jon and Theon:

Quote

Theon wants to be Jon Snow, but he can’t do it. He keeps making the wrong decisions. He keeps giving into to his own selfish, worst impulses.

In some senses, Theon is struggling all the way through to be a hero. They both come out of the same situation: they’re both raised in Winterfell by Eddard Stark, but they’re not part of the real, core family. Theon is a ward, and Jon Snow is a bastard son. So they’re both a little outside, but Jon handles this successfully, and Theon fails to handle this. He is poisoned by his own envy and his sense of not belonging.

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2017/08/22/fantasy-needs-magic

And that's pretty much what we saw tonight. Theon pointing out that Jon can still stick to his  principles even when everything is at stake and it's the hardest thing to do and that Theon had been unable to do that.  Theon has always been conflicted about his identity because of Ned taking him as an hostage - he's neither Stark or Greyjoy. He does not belong anywhere and that inner conflict is what drives most of his actions - a need to find acceptance somewhere.

Jon telling him that he is both a Stark and a Greyjoy even if it was not his place to offer Theon forgiveness - that gives him some peace and acceptance, I think - it helps him move forward.

Anyways, Jon is always going to think that Ned is the greatest (He has a diary full of ' My father always said..' quotes) and he grew up with Theon and Robb as brothers, so that betrayal would have hit him hard. And Theon's arc has always been about reconciling with his past actions and I think this conversation with Jon helped. I don't know, I loved the Theon scenes the best this episode. Best character and Alfie's portrayal helps.

Edited August 28, 2017 by anamika

[RobertDeSneero]

41 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Look, I know, aunt/nephew whatnot...

But I'm pretty pissed we didn't get to see Jon and Daenerys' first kiss.  

It was a lord's kiss.

[Blonde Gator]

2 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Again, this is why Tyrion is now a fool. He knows Cersei. How could he ever believe she would stand down or even help? If anything, he has made it worse. Daenerys will be furious at her deception and will come for her hard and fast after they deal with the NK. I expect Cersei to burn down King's Landing with wildfire anyway. 

+1,000,000

[Pogojoco]

3 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

I want to say she's delusional, but she's not wrong. Not even Tyrion could argue that.

She is right, I agree. 

Tyrion sent Myrcella to Dorne (who hate them. It is known.) 

Tyrion killed Tywin- Cersei was totally right when she said no one would've tried this stuff with Tywin still in charge. No one lives forever, of course, but one does live longer if they don't take a crossbow bolt to the bowels. 

[that one guy]

23 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

28 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Lyanna and Rhaegar were SELFISH AS FUCK.

I think Rheagar was hung up on that damn prophesy.  Lyanna has no excuse beyond youth and having her head turned by being wooed by the crown prince.  BUT, in the end, if Jon really IS the prince that was promised -- the one that will save the world from the White Walkers -- then their selfish act will end up saving the world.  Alas, it will be a world ravaged by years of war that were started as a direct result of their desire to knock boots.

Lyanna an Rhaegar shacking up didn't start the war, though. The Mad King started the war by murdering Rickard and Brandon Stark, and them summoning Ned and Robert to King's Landing. They called in their banners rather that obey the summons and get murdered. Had the King dealt with the Starks differently, there would have been no war. He could have said, "I have no idea what my crazy-ass son is up to, I'll send Ser Barristan to find out, the two of them seem to get along. But kidnapping noblewomen isn't usually his style, so there must be an explanation." 

He didn't do that, because he was a paranoid lunatic. That wasn't Rhaegar's fault, in fact that's probably why Rhaegar was hiding out in Dorne at the time, to avoid dear old dad.

[ulkis]

15 hours ago, alaynestone said:

And that scene was great, but it was kind of ruined that it happened during the 'yes, we saw this coming a mile-away' incest sex scene with Jon and Daenerys, literally as Bran says basically saying Daenerys is his aunt, lol.  Ugh.  I'm so not on board for this pairing and I really feel like the only one.  But, Bran did basically say that Jon is the actual heir to the throne, and I can't see Daenerys easily giving that up to Jon.  So, the relationship doesn't look like it's going to work out..

I don't know. I'm 50/50 on it. It all happened a little too quickly. And of course they don't know yet, and not to mention that Sam doesn't know yet that Daenarys killed his brother. But then again, I can also see the show just wanting to wrap it up like that. I think that was part of GRRM's problem with the books. He was trying too hard to be unpredictable and it got more and more complicated and that's how he got stalled.

Edited August 28, 2017 by ulkis

[mac123x]

18 minutes ago, rmontro said:

I couldn't tell, was Viserion breathing blue flame or ice?

It was really hard to tell.  It looked like a blue laser beam of some sort, though it was pulverizing the Wall rather than melting it.  We'll probably get a better idea of what it is next season.

 

Rhaegar and Viserys looked disturbingly too much alike.  I think if they'd used a better wig it would have looked more plausible that he was a dream-boat that everyone lurved.

[SimoneS]

3 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

I think the "betrayal for love [scorned]" will be Daario Naharis.  He is the leader of the Gold Cloaks in the series.  But that's just one of several possibilities...Tyrion, Missandei, or Grey Worm being the others who immediately spring to mind.

Is the betrayal prediction in the show though? I don't recall. 

 

6 minutes ago, TobinAlbers said:

NC-W got me when he heard how many wights they saw coming and his face just fell from shock and absolute fear. Same as when Jamie saw the dragon a few episodes back, he sells the seriousness of the situation because when HE is shitting his pants, you know things are bad.

Jaime's reaction to the wight was appropriately terrifying. I cannot take him seriously any more. I don't even know why he is bothering to go north other than so that his Valyrian steel sword will be where it can be useful.

[Meredith Quill]

Can we stop to consider that dragonpit scene for a moment:

Cleganebowl fucking CONFIRMED people!

The hype is real.

[Oscirus]

3 minutes ago, Pogojoco said:

Tyrion sent Myrcella to Dorne (who hate them. It is known.) 

Sending myrcella to Dorne wasn't the problem, it was actually pretty smart. It was his pride and refusal to be belittled which led to Oberon being his arrogant champion and eventually led to her death.

[DarkRaichu]

1. "We're fucked"

2. Boatsex :P  Jon's / Egon Targaryen's little soldiers are going to proof that witch wrong :P

3. Damn! Cersei is a better strategist than anyone could imagine.. But she is banking (heh) on the Dany and Jon to win.  There is no way the Golden Company can protect her if NK wins and uses the Dothrakis and Unsulied to double his army of the dead

4. Jaime finally left Cersei woot!!

5. Seriously, where the heck is Bronn ??? He left with Podrick and we never saw him again.  I would have thought he'd leave with Jaime

6. I never doubted Sansa and Arya working together to oust LF :P  Sansa just needed to get the last morsels of "wisdom" before killing him.  That was a rather quick death considering LF's role in the death of Starks' parents

7.  Nice shot of the sisters on the Winterfell's wall remembering their dad

8. Theon grew a pair (thanks to Jon).  Although I did not understand that man he fought.  If the knee to the nuts did not work, why not knee the gut????

9. For a quick second I wanted the Mountain to fight that wight

10. Was the dead dragon firing blue fire or ice beam ??  It was awesome nonetheless

11. I hope Tormund and that guy with the voice could run before the wall was destroyed.  Man I wish I have his voice :P

12. "We sail together"  Check Ser Friendzone's face: Fook, that boat is going to rock is it ??? :P :P :P

13. Why has Jon never talked to Brienne??? They were just a couple of feet from each other?

14. Qyburn you scientist. When everyone stayed back from the wight, he actually stepped forward and picked the dead hand.  I bet he wanted to learn the secrets of NK's magic

15.  How could the dead dragon fly with all of those holes on its wings ????

[Pogojoco]

Just now, Oscirus said:

Sending myrcella to Dorne wasn't the problem, it was actually pretty smart. It was his pride and refusal to be belittled which led to Oberon being his arrogant champion and eventually led to her death.

Yes, that's probably true. 

[mac123x]

5 minutes ago, doram said:

But how do we know it's a prophecy? Because Dany thinks so. We actually "see" Dany become her own unreliable narrator of this so-called prophecy. She asks Mirri when/if Drogo will ever come out of his coma-like state, and Mirri basically tells her "Drogo wakes up when a bunch of impossible things happen, and you have a baby". Dany concludes that "when a bunch of impossible things happen, I will have a baby."

When it's more like Mirri was telling her "Drogo wakes up.... when pigs fly." No comment on Dany's fertility or lack of it. The idea of a prophecy/curse is entirely Dany's conclusion/imagination. 

There's a discrepancy in what MMD told Dany between the show and the books.  In both, Dany asked when Drogo would recover.  In the show, MMD said "when the sun rises in the east and sets in the west.  When the sea goes dry, and mountains blow in the wind like leaves" and that's it.  She didn't add the bit about "when your womb quickens and you bear a living child". 

 

When reading the books, I kept thinking "you are wildly misinterpreting what she said".  I really don't see how Show!Dany came to that conclusion at all.

[Katsullivan]

6 minutes ago, doram said:

When it's more like Mirri was telling her "Drogo wakes up.... when pigs fly." No comment on Dany's fertility or lack of it. The idea of a prophecy/curse is entirely Dany's conclusion/imagination. 

Well, she did imply that Dany bearing a living child was something akin to pigs flying.

Not bashing your theory or Jon's, for that matter. I kind of like the idea that rather than something elaborate, the "solution" to this was a simple case of misunderstanding or unreliable sources (or narrators as you described). But Mirri definitely wanted Dany to believe that she'd never have children again even if she wasn't blatantly lying about it. 

[britesongs]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

The Jon/Theon scene was the best part of the episode for me. Both of them discussing what made them, them. Jon calling Theon a Stark with the Stark music swelling. Theon getting his metaphorical balls back and taking back leadership to go save Yara. Hell yeah.

I love Theon. I know a lot of people don't, but I've been rewatching and everything he said about being conflicted and unsure of how to be a good man just sums up his issues early on. He suffered more than enough for his sins, and that wicked PTSD will continue to haunt him. Alfie Allen has been tremendous, and this scene was wonderfully done. I've resigned myself to his looming death, but as long as he goes out making amends by trying to save his sister (or something similar), it will be good. Predictable, but satisfying.

1 hour ago, Wulfsige said:

Burning question...are Pod and Bronn still drinking? I really wish I could have gone with them rather than watch sex with Auntie.

I would have appreciated a shot of them on a ship or clip-clopping along the Kingsroad to confirm their continued presence. And Brienne as well. When Jaime rode off as it started to snow, I wanted to see the four of them together. 

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

That scene between Sansa and Arya and Littlefinger was satisfying.

DO YOU DENY IT?

I have been waiting for his comeuppance for SO LONG. Fucking motherfucker. And I wanted to believe that they were playing him, but there were some unanswered questions from previous scenes/episodes that really muddied the waters for me, so it was a toss-up in my mind as to how this would go. As soon as Arya got in there and we saw all the guards, it felt like there was something twisty about to happen. Sansa was awesome. And Arya's super quick slice was perfect.

35 minutes ago, vesperholly said:

Once someone said he was Evil Pacey, it was all over for me.

And now that's all I will be able to see. But I find Euron comical anyway, so the layer of Evil Pacey just makes it better, it think.

 

Intellectually, I knew the Mountain wasn't going to kill Jaime, but fuck if I didn't immediately sit forward and start preemptively cursing at the TV. 

The Night King don't play around. The second he got that dragon, he was like, "Let's fucking destroy the Wall, motherfuckers." And then he flew his ass out there and did it. I agreed that the battle last week was a bit of a set up in that the NK wanted to get a dragon and was prepared for it, and his immediate decision to attack the Wall as soon as he got Viserion supports that. 

How do all the NW (and Beric and TORMUND) outrun the wights? They've got to get to Castle Black now and the army of the dead is on their heels. 

[rmontro]

9 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I'm wondering if Tyrion will end up betraying Dany. There was so many mentions of how he loved Tommen and Myrcella  and  how he convinced Dany not to bring Fire and blood cause he didn't want his family hurt...I also didn't like the way the scene between him and Cersei cut out when he realized she was pregnant. It's pretty ominous to me. 

Oh, you might be on to something there.  I hope not.  Tyrion might have even come up with the plan for Cersei lying about helping with her armies.  All along I've been thinking Varys was the traitor in Dany's camp, I hadn't considered Tyrion.  And Tyrion was drinking, we haven't seen that from him for awhile, have we?  I hope you're wrong.

Tyrion knows about the dead, but maybe he thinks that Jon and Dany's forces can defeat them, but there won't be enough left over to threaten Cersei.

[Oscirus]

9 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Again, this is why Tyrion is now a fool. He knows Cersei. How could he ever believe she would stand down or even help? If anything, he has made it worse. Daenerys will be furious at her deception and will come for her hard and fast after they deal with the NK. I expect Cersei to burn down King's Landing with wildfire anyway. 

As opposed to when she refused to help? Tyrion's talk with Cersei doesn't affect things one way or the other since they're not even planning to use her help.   The damned fools in that situation were those expecting Cersei's help while offering her nothing.

[RobertDeSneero]

4 minutes ago, that one guy said:

Lyanna an Rhaegar shacking up didn't start the war, though. The Mad King started the war by murdering Rickard and Brandon Stark, and them summoning Ned and Robert to King's Landing. They called in their banners rather that obey the summons and get murdered. Had the King dealt with the Starks differently, there would have been no war. He could have said, "I have no idea what my crazy-ass son is up to, I'll send Ser Barristan to find out, the two of them seem to get along. But kidnapping noblewomen isn't usually his style, so there must be an explanation." 

He didn't do that, because he was a paranoid lunatic. That wasn't Rhaegar's fault, in fact that's probably why Rhaegar was hiding out in Dorne at the time, to avoid dear old dad.

Brandon Stark was arrested for treason after protesting that Rhaegar had abducted his sister.  Rickard was summoned and made the mistake of being a Stark who went south.  Then, we had some dead Starks and a war.  So, their relationship set things in motion.  If they hadn't conducted it in a way that could be construed a a kidnapping, then things would have been different.

[RobertDeSneero]

2 minutes ago, britesongs said:

The Night King don't play around. The second he got that dragon, he was like, "Let's fucking destroy the Wall, motherfuckers." And then he flew his ass out there and did it. I agreed that the battle last week was a bit of a set up in that the NK wanted to get a dragon and was prepared for it, and his immediate decision to attack the Wall as soon as he got Viserion supports that.

They didn't tell you, but three months passed between getting the dragon and the wall tumbling down.

[GraceK]

2 minutes ago, Pogojoco said:

She is right, I agree. 

Tyrion sent Myrcella to Dorne (who hate them. It is known.) 

Tyrion killed Tywin- Cersei was totally right when she said no one would've tried this stuff with Tywin still in charge. No one lives forever, of course, but one does live longer if they don't take a crossbow bolt to the bowels. 

But Cersei was the one so obsessed with Destroying Margery that she gave the Faith Militant power against her best interests. If anything, if Tywin was alive, he would have kept Cersei in check and SHE wouldn't have the been the one to set everything in motion. She is the one who killed Tommen, the Tyrells were an important alliance that her Father realized they needed. She was the jealous idiot who cared nothing for her sons happiness and only her own power. Myrecella would have been safe in Dorne, married to the prince if Cerseis hatred of her brother didn't try to have him excuted and she didn't gloat at Oberyons death. She alone is responsible for her actions and  I'm sick of people whitewashing her and finding others to blame for her evil. Jon is being called a stupid idiot for not lying to Cersei at the Dragonpit...but hello! She never had any plans to actually hold up her end. If Jon has pledged to her she still would have betrayed him and he would have lost his honor for nothing. She blames everyone else for thher destruction she has caused.

[anamika]

9 minutes ago, doram said:

I 100% agree with everything you said about Theon/Robb and this is what I mean when I say the show lacks nuance. Jon should have been appealing to Theon's relationship with Robb, not his relationship with Ned. But of course, D & D would prefer to make everything into Daddy-issues because that's the most important deal in US media. ? 

True. Jon should have mentioned Robb. I was waiting for him to bring up Robb. But it seems everyone on the show has forgotten that Robb existed.  It's like Jon and Gendry bonding over Ned instead of Arya! Like What?!

Though, I can see why Jon was moralizing about Ned being Theon's true father. Jon tends to put Ned and the Starks on a pedestal. That's true to his character. I just like that scene, because it brings up the inner conflict that Theon is suffering from about whether he is a Stark or a Greyjoy. Much better written than psycho Arya up North, dumb Sansa, idiot Tyrion/Jon/Cersei/LF, Jaime leaving Cersei now of all things, the whole WF plot etc.

Edited August 28, 2017 by anamika

[Oscirus]

1 minute ago, RobertDeSneero said:

Brandon Stark was arrested for treason after protesting that Rhaegar had abducted his sister.  Rickard was summoned and made the mistake of being a Stark who went south.  Then, we had some dead Starks and a war.  So, their relationship set things in motion.  If they hadn't conducted it in a way that could be construed a a kidnapping, then things would have been different.

If Lyanna was a woman so ahead of her time then she should've been proud to cast aside the Stark name and all that came with it to go with the love of her life as opposed to hiding in Dorne and pretending to be kidnapped.

[SimoneS]

Cersei is delusional and full of shit. She is responsible for most of the destruction of her family not Tyrion.  Her father was alive when she was fucking her brother and passing off their children as Robert's which in motion a chain of events that even Tywin couldn't prevent. 

 

10 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Well, she did imply that Dany bearing a living child was something akin to pigs flying.

Not bashing your theory or Jon's, for that matter. I kind of like the idea that rather than something elaborate, the "solution" to this was a simple case of misunderstanding or unreliable sources (or narrators as you described). But Mirri definitely wanted Dany to believe that she'd never have children again even if she wasn't blatantly lying about it. 

After the Melisandre debacle, I have come to the conclusion that most of these predictions are either outright wrong or incorrectly interpreted.

Edited August 28, 2017 by SimoneS

[OhOkayWhat]

You're a Greyjoy. You're a Stark

 

Loved it.

[RandomWatcher]

Tormund can't die until he and Brienne make giant monster babies.

[Lemuria]

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Because the execution of said plan was Jon's and his execution was shit

And we know this because...?  This is an assumption.  The only thing we saw was the discussion on Dragonstone.  Everyone was saying, "Great!  Jorah's back and he knows war and tactics; he can take over from Tyrion, who doesn't."  So maybe it was Jorah's plan.  Or maybe the BWB said, "We got a vision from the LoL and we have to get to a mountain shaped like an arrowhead.  We'll find a wight there."  

We don't know how the actual raid was conceived  but there wasn't much leeway.  You continue to hide Enigma and let Coventry be destroyed.  Because sometimes, the only options are "extremely lousy" and "really, really, really horribly, terribly bad."  

As for giving the NK a dragon:  There are those who talk about how stupid the wight plan who say that Dany should just have done a flyover.  Two problems with that, as I see it:  First, that still would put a dragon in the line of fire.  The NK was gunning for a dragon and he'd come prepared to take one down.  I believe that the "scouting party" was out there looking for a dragon to arrive--the NK probably knew that sooner or later, Dany would have to see for herself--since there was no other reason to have a scouting party.  The Wildlings were gone and the NW consisted of about the same number of people as it would take to fill a small movie theater.  

Second, Dany didn't need to just see the undead army, she needed to be convinced how much of a threat they were.  I think she was more than a little arrogant about the power that the dragons represented.  Nothing could have brought home with more impact the danger the NK and his army represented than losing Viserion did.  

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Also can we marvel at Jon's stupidity?  Yea, Cersei wouldn't have sent her army anyway, but holy shit dude, learn to lie for crying out loud.

I disagree.  How many posts did we see over the last couple of weeks talking about how dumb the wight plan was because Cersei would never honor her promise to send troops to help them?  That being the case, Jon's honesty was irrelevant.  So if Jon had lied, she would have just lied to them sooner than she ended up lying to them?  That would have somehow been a win for the Good Guys?  This is who Jon is--and maybe it's the reason the LoL brought him back.  (It also confirmed for Dany that this was someone she could trust and ally with.)

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Having a dragon wight destroy the wall. Cool. But the Night King only had the dragon because they went north of the wall. Does this mean that all they had to do was close the gates and wait out the winter to beat the Night King?

IMO, no.  The NK was marching toward Eastmarch for a reason.  If you look at the weekly opening sequences, with the map, from the first 6 seasons, we see water on the map to the east of Eastmarch.  If you look at the opening sequence for this season, we see white east of Eastmarch.  This is no ordinary winter, this is the start of the Long Night, 8,000 years after the first one.  In addition to meaning that the weather is colder than a normal winter, it may mean that the NK is at the height of his powers.  

Either way, the sea east of Eastmarch is freezing over.  As I see it, the NK intended (if no flyover was done) to wait until it was frozen enough--or to use his power to freeze it more and faster than the winter would have--and then to march his army around the Wall.

One way or another, he was getting south of the Wall.

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I somehow doubt that Rhaegar would've let anybody bring upsetting news to her. It seems if anything he was shielding her from that shit. So even if the guards knew, she likely didn't

At some point, Rhaegar was too dead to prevent anyone from bringing her upsetting news.  I think she was well aware that Rhaegar, Elia Martell and the kids were dead when Ned arrived.  

I'm wondering what Dany will think when (I'm assuming it's a when and not an if) she learns not only of Jon's parentage but also his name.  Remember her dream/vision of Rhaeger appearing to her and saying that this is his son, Aegon, and he is the PwwP?  She probably dismissed it since she believed Aegon was dead.  This is now changed.

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Also if Dany isn't barren, whatever happened with all the sex she was having with Daario? I don't think they were using birth control

Maybe it really was a curse that had been laid on her.  Thing is, Jon has now been resurrected by Rhy'llor, which could be seen as making him "magic."  That, in turn, might be able to defeat the curse.  Just spitballin' here.

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Jon continues to prove he should NOT be King in The North.  He couldn't out-intrigue a swatted fly much less a true "player." 

But I think the whole point is that Jon is not a "playah."  The only one not seeking to grab power or promote himself (making him, in one sense, the only person who should have the power).  He accepted the "vote" to make him KiTN because it gave him the best opportunity to unite the North and to put together a defense against the oncoming army of the undead.  I'm not sure he intended to keep the title if they won.

If Dany truly intends to break the wheel, then that also means putting an end to the intrigue, the "game of thrones."  It should also mean rulers who put the welfare of the people first.  You know, Jon Snow.

 

Forgot to add:  I thought Lena H. did a fantastic job in this ep.  

Edited August 28, 2017 by Lemuria

[Katsullivan]

1 minute ago, doram said:

Dany should never have had children again, and it had nothing to do with her barrenness. As the widow of a Khal, she was supposed to join the Dosh Khaleen and live there as basically a nun for the rest of her life. Mirri wasn't cursing her when she said that - she was stating a (largely undisputed) fact about Dany's fate. 

 

???

This is kind of scaring-ly brilliant. 

[Ambrosefolly]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

I want to say she's delusional, but she's not wrong. Not even Tyrion could argue that.

Ellaria was so fucking crazy at that point over Oberyn she wasn't going to be cowed by any fucking Lannister, not even Tywin. In her heart of hearts, Cersei was glad Tywin died, especially near the beginning of Tommen's reign. Dorne faced off against dragons and won. I agree that Tyrion's pride probably helped do Marcella in.

 

1 hour ago, that one guy said:

Lyanna an Rhaegar shacking up didn't start the war, though. The Mad King started the war by murdering Rickard and Brandon Stark, and them summoning Ned and Robert to King's Landing. They called in their banners rather that obey the summons and get murdered. Had the King dealt with the Starks differently, there would have been no war. He could have said, "I have no idea what my crazy-ass son is up to, I'll send Ser Barristan to find out, the two of them seem to get along. But kidnapping noblewomen isn't usually his style, so there must be an explanation." 

He didn't do that, because he was a paranoid lunatic. That wasn't Rhaegar's fault, in fact that's probably why Rhaegar was hiding out in Dorne at the time, to avoid dear old dad.

 

 

 

 

Rhaegar not realizing that the Mad King wouldn't act like the Mad King is like that Chris Rock joke about the tiger that turned on Siegfried and Roy. "the tiger didn't go crazy, the tiger went TIGER". No one was going to respond well to that stunt Rhaegar pulled, let alone a crazy person. 

Edited August 28, 2017 by Ambrosefolly

[Inquirer]

6 minutes ago, doram said:

I still don't understand what the heck was supposed to be going on between Sansa and Arya in the North. 

It looks like they went with Sansa and Arya's two scenes in 7x06 being an act for any of LF's spies or even LF himself...remember, he was watching Arya take the letter from the shadows completely undetected, Sansa and Arya may have known he could be watching anywhere at anytime, especially if they spoke with Bran about it earlier in an absolutely secured location.  The leaked script outline had more ambiguity about it with how it was worded, but I'm unsure if anything really changed or if that was just the wording being deliberately misleading due to describing the scenes exactly how they appear to be.  Bottom line: I think the Arya vs. Sansa scenes last episode were meant to place the audience in LF (or his spies') position and come to the same conclusions, to make the truth even more of a surprise.

This is boosted by "Inside the Episode" where one of the showrunners said they were building what "seemed like a real rift between them".

Also, the original outline had Cersei suffering a miscarriage toward the end of the episode.  That idea was either axed outright, or it's been moved to Season 8.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Inquirer

[DarkRaichu]

20 minutes ago, Kanner said:

I'm confused about Bran making it a point to call Jon a Sand. I know it is the bastard name in Dorne. But everyone knew Jon was not born in the North. Were they ok with Snow because they didn't know where in the South he was born? Or the writers just needed a lead in for the true Targ reveal?

The writers were trying to make Bran the new Stannis, checking and correcting everyone's grammar :D :D :D

Although that was baffling. Jon was a Snow because he was a bastard son of a northern lord (Ned).  It did not have anything to do with where he was born.  If Jon was a bastard son of a Targaryen (Rhaegar), shouldn't his last name be Storm???