S07.E06: Beyond the Wall

[Oscirus]

6 hours ago, GrailKing said:

she has the means, but she really doesn't have the Vale yet , she's waiting for something she can pin on him that he can't wiggle out of, proof it's got to e something tangible and can be substantiated , can't be just Bran's say so I saw it in a dream.

My only other thought is it' LF and his minion who ever it is, Cersei wants her dead, LF not necessarily wants her dead, but he's not in good graces with KL, so could LF and Cersei team up?, is Wolcum in on it?

The plan is to convince Cersei, and Southern Lords, so why try and remove Sansa  from WF unless she's mucking up someones plan, so it could be LF and Royce is Sansa's plant. 

She witnessed Lysa's death ( can say that Littlefinger forced her to lie), she has proof that Littlfinger sold her to the boltons and Royce clearly wants to be rid of Littlefinger. I'd say she can convince him to go along if she so desires.

Another interesting thing about the episode that I didn't notice the first time around is that Tyrion's trying to bring ndemocracy to Westeros. His view of breaking the wheel seems to be ending that type of government.  It would've been interesting to see if he and dany would be more successful then Aegon the unlikely was when he tried to change things around Westeros.

[Tikichick]

15 hours ago, Thinbalina said:

I'm starting to wonder if that scene really involved Arya as Sansa..

That would be an interesting twist.

[Bryce Lynch]

43 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

Still failing to see how that qualifies them as stupid.

I think GOT tends to train viewers to think "Don't  be stupid!" when a character is about to do something selfless or merciful, as it has them waiting for the other shoe to drop.   It is definitely not a good way of thinking to carry over into real life.  

 

44 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

In 7x03 Tyrion tells Jon that it was an unconsummated sham marriage, which felt like the show was making it clear to us that the marriage was indeed not valid (and would not be leading to anything in the future): this confirmed that the consummated Ramsay marriage was legal, as was said in season 5 in a Littlefinger/Roose scene, and so Sansa is officially a widow now. She's the Lady of Winterfell, Tyrion has no interest in resuming the marriage, and the non-Cersei monarchs (Jon and Dany) won't force them to continue a marriage they were pressured to enter: no need for a high septon, I think it's clear from what the show has said that we are meant to see the marriage as being over.

I took Tyrion's statement to Jon to be a commentary on the nature of his relationship to Sansa, not on the legal standing of their marriage.  

I doubt it will be brought up as an issue, and I don't know what the laws of Westeros are, but generally speaking, while lack of consummation is grounds (and in some cases a prerequisite) for an annulment, I don't think it automatically annuls a marriage.  Since Ramsey is dead, it is not relevant, but if he were alive or if Sansa had borne a son by him, Tyrion (and Sansa) might well be able to claim that the Sansa/Ramsey marriage was invalid, and Ramsey's child a bastard.  Having the Tyrion/Sansa marriage annulled might just be a formality, but going through the process might be necessary, legally speaking. 

Edited August 22, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

She witnessed Lysa's death ( can say that Littlefinger forced her to lie), she has proof that Littlfinger sold her to the boltons and Royce clearly wants to be rid of Littlefinger. I'd say she can convince him to go along if she so desires.

I remember a few people yelp that she lied to Jon about being sold ( though technically she was )and does she or Bran want to drag Lysa's part into it? I don't think so.

You're right she could say that, but need witnesses to make it stick. 

She have to talk to Royce alone and confess the lie, I don't think he want it known, he respected Ned a lot.

What proof, that his marriage plan was accepted? if he's not stupid as we all know he's not, he burned that and by Sansa's own admission she married into two houses forced yes but these Northerners are shifting waves, and Glover seems the one who wavers most ( maybe it's a rouse ).

I think it has to go down according to all his teachings: Keep your hands clean, take a risk, a person with no motive isn't suspected etc. she uses the rules that best apply to the situation.

The best answer is what I think it's come down to : Sansa, Wolcum ,and Royce set him up.

Arya is kept out of the loop for emotional credence and purpose; and to be honest it be a way for Sansa to tell Arya 2 can play the fear game.

[Hana Chan]

At least Gendry can run faster than he rows.

[GrailKing]

23 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Another interesting thing about the episode that I didn't notice the first time around is that Tyrion's trying to bring ndemocracy to Westeros. His view of breaking the wheel seems to be ending that type of government.  It would've been interesting to see if he and dany would be more successful then Aegon the unlikely was when he tried to change things around Weste

Someone upthread mentioned how Robb, Bran, Jon and now Sansa running the north as parliamentary form of government. ( I'm not British so I'm parroting ) 

16 hours ago, Thinbalina said:

I'm starting to wonder if that scene really involved Arya as Sansa..

It would blow the person needs to be dead out of the water, but how is Arya in two locations at once?

[mac123x]

I perused the Unsullied thread (don't worry, I treated it like a museum - look, don't touch).  It seems their consensus was pretty "meh" too.  Also, they're referring to the wight hunt expedition as "the Band of Brooders" which made me chuckle.

[Blonde Gator]

41 minutes ago, screamin said:

Depends who's doing the de jure. When Bran heard about what Ramsey had done to poor Lady Hornwood, his maester told him IIRC that a forced vow (wedding vow) was not valid, and Bran ordered Ramsey's arrest - so presumably he had the legal justification for doing so.

Which didn't help Lady Hornwood, she died of starvation after eating her fingers off.

But back to this episode, in HBO Westeros, it doesn't matter one iota......apparently there IS legal annulment (as we saw with the Sam/Gilly scene last week), but whatever serves moving the plot is going to be what's accepted, de facto or de jure.

[Tikichick]

11 hours ago, britesongs said:

I get everything you're saying about the maneuvering happening between Sansa and LF with regards to Brienne. It makes sense.

BUT, there is literally no reason I can think of or that I've read for Cersei to send that invite though. That's where I struggle making sense of this. No one has any reason to send Sansa an invite because she isn't involved in anything outside Winterfell. Whatever role she would have related to Winterfell and the North would already be filled by Jon's presence. And I don't think Cersei is the one calling the meeting about the WW; the Tyrion/Dany/Jon side is and she is merely agreeing to it.

Maybe it was Tyrion and he wants to renew their vows.

Except that we know Cersei has two things that belong to her that she wants back very much.  What if she knows that Sansa is currently acting as Lady of WF and in charge of matters with the northern lords?  It's not beyond possibilities that Cersei decides to use the meeting as cover for inviting Sansa to attend, banking on the possibility Sansa will feel she is adequately protected by others in attendance and will comply, falling into Cersei's grip.  

[Blonde Gator]

15 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Except that we know Cersei has two things that belong to her that she wants back very much.  What if she knows that Sansa is currently acting as Lady of WF and in charge of matters with the northern lords?  It's not beyond possibilities that Cersei decides to use the meeting as cover for inviting Sansa to attend, banking on the possibility Sansa will feel she is adequately protected by others in attendance and will comply, falling into Cersei's grip.  

I wouldn't put it past Cersei.  Unfortunately, her schemes of late seem to be working, whereas in the books her scheming usually blows up spectacularly in her face.  Wouldn't it be fabulous if this WAS one of Sansa's schemes, as you've posited, and then to have it blow up in her face?  That would make my week! 

I still think the invitation came from Tyrion (he knows Sansa's in charge of WF without Jon there)....and similar invites were sent to all of the Great Houses in Westeros, and to the Arch Maesters of the Citadel.  Having said that, WHY did he send out invitations before he knew of the success of the mission to capture a wight?  Or did he just get a message from Star Fleet Command from hyperspace?

[AshleyN]

2 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

I noticed that the WW aren't great at fighting. Jon dispatched two of them rather quickly. I wonder if it's because they're used to humans just falling in front of them because they have those ice swords and that magic behind them. 

With the first one, the White Walker definitely seemed to be in shock that his blade didn't break like all the others, but the second put up more of a fight. I think it's supposed to be another indication of what a strong fighter Jon is meant to be (along with Ramsay talking about his growing reputation in BotB). I think he's actually better in the show than in the books (where he seems to be very good, but not quite as amazing as ShowJon, struggling with at least one Night's Watch recruit and IIRC getting beaten by Mance). I'm not sure if it's due to the showrunners leaning toward more traditional hero tendencies, or the fact that Kit seems to be roundly acknowledged as the best member of the cast with a sword and they want to take advantage of that.

2 hours ago, blackwing said:

I'm unclear on a few things....

The utter stupidity of Jon's plan.  He is a terrible leader.  Did he think it was going to be so easy just to pick off a straggler dead thing and then go gently into that good night without attracting any attention?  Why not have gotten Daenerys to give him a ride in the first place?  Swoop in, grab one, swoop out.  It probably would have taken them less than an hour.  Stoopid.

So the Night King and his right hand are White Walkers.  There seem to be a few White Walkers interspersed among the wights in the army.  Jon's sword is made of Valyrian steel so destroys White Walkers instantly.  But doesn't work the same way against wights?  Why not?  And if Jon is aware that dragonglass also instantly kills White Walkers, how come he didn't take the time to arm everyone with dragonglass weapons from Dragonstone BEFORE setting off beyond the wall?  Stoopid.

After Daenerys saw the Night King kill Viserion, why didn't she make an effort to have her other two dragons torch him?  Sure she might not have known who he was, but clearly he was a being of some skill and importance.  Stoopid.

The wight hunt wasn't Jon's plan, it was Tyrion's, who I agree is really not having a good season (or two) in that regard.

I don't know if Valyrian steel kills wights instantly the way it does White Walkers, but considering how many Jon took down it doesn't seem to be too ineffective against them. And the others were armed with dragonglass -- we definitely saw Jorah and the Hound using dragonglass weapons and I believe Tormund too, while Beric and Thoros were armed with fire, the other thing known to kill wights.

I'm pretty sure Dany was in shock and obvious distress at the fact that the Night King was not only able to take out Viserion, but the ease with which he did it, and he came back pretty quickly for Drogon. I don't think it's weird at all for them to retreat and regroup. But then I've also never understood this idea that fictional characters under immense stress and emotional turmoil should always act in a perfectly rational manner. That's not really how most humans work.

Edited August 22, 2017 by AshleyN

[Heathrowe]

If I was Sansa, I would never go back to King's Landing, so I don't blame her for sending Brienne. She's spent the last few years trying to get back to Winterfell and be safe-why should she deliver herself back to Cersei?

What if Dany marries Gendry? The true fruit of Robert Baratheon's loins? If Jon is her nephew and that's out as far as marriage...Why bother to bring Gendry back at this point if he's not endgame somehow?  Also, I thought his reintroduction literally dropped some "anvils" with the classic hero emerging from obscurity to claim his true identity and the war hammer,  he seems more important than ever.

[FnkyChkn34]

2 minutes ago, Heathrowe said:

If I was Sansa, I would never go back to King's Landing, so I don't blame her for sending Brienne. She's spent the last few years trying to get back to Winterfell and be safe-why should she deliver herself back to Cersei?

What if Dany marries Gendry? The true fruit of Robert Baratheon's loins? If Jon is her nephew and that's out as far as marriage...Why bother to bring Gendry back at this point if he's not endgame somehow?  Also, I thought his reintroduction literally dropped some "anvils" with the classic hero emerging from obscurity to claim his true identity and the war hammer,  he seems more important than ever.

Plus, he's taller...  ;-)

[YaddaYadda]

19 minutes ago, AshleyN said:

With the first one, the White Walker definitely seemed to be in shock that his blade didn't break like all the others, but the second put up more of a fight. I think it's supposed to be another indication of what a strong fighter Jon is meant to be (along with Ramsay talking about his growing reputation in BotB). I think he's actually better in the show than in the books (where he seems to be very good, but not quite as amazing as ShowJon, struggling with at least one Night's Watch recruit and IIRC getting beaten by Mance). I'm not sure if it's due to the showrunners leaning toward more traditional hero tendencies, or the fact that Kit seems to be roundly acknowledged as the best member of the cast with a sword and they want to take advantage of that.

The fight against Mance sounded pretty savage. He does seem to be more on par with Iron Emmett though, or Iron Emmett seems to be on par with Jon. But yeah, book!Jon isn't as good as show!Jon. And Kit is fun to watch with that sword. So you won't be hearing complaints from me.

I remember reading a quote from GRRM about this very thing, where it was Barristan, then Jaime with both his hands, Brienne coming after. Arthur Dayne with Dawn better than Barristan, without Dawn on par with Barristan. So it was all really interesting. Jon not as good and nowhere near these guys. 

Edited August 22, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[BitterApple]

I think Dany marrying Gendry would be a cool plot twist, but they've already gone through the trouble of building a romance with Jon. With only six episodes next season, do you guys think there's time to flesh out another relationship? I agree they brought Gendry back for a specific purpose, I just can't figure out what. 

[Blonde Gator]

10 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

The fight against Mance sounded pretty savage. He does seem to be more on par with Iron Emmett though, or Iron Emmett seems to be on par with Jon. But yeah, book!Jon isn't as good as show!Jon. And Kit is fun to watch with that sword. So you won't be hearing complaints from me.

I remember reading a quote from GRRM about this very thing, where it was Barristan, then Jaime with both his hands, Brienne coming after. Arthur Dayne with Dawn better than Barristan, without Dawn on par with Barristan. So it was all really interesting. Jon not as good and nowhere near these guys. 

One of the bizarre fan theories out there is that Mance was Arthur Dayne, who didn't die at the TOJ, and went North of the Wall, to assist many other "hidden" characters (including Q'uoren Half Hand, and others) to prepare humanity for the Great War to Come (ties in with "I wish you good luck in the Wars to Come" phrase we've heard 3x now).  That's one of the explanations for Mance Rayder's prowess with a bladed weapon.  Kind of crazy, but you just never know with this series, who is doing what to whom (in secret and out in the open). 

Be that as it may, you are spot-on about watching Jon fight.  Kit's really good at it, I hope it doesn't pigeon hole him as an actor in the future.

HBO just announced that the final episode this season, "The Dragon and the Wolf" will run for 79 minutes, 43 seconds.  No description of the episode was released.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Blonde Gator
Edited after the merge.

[Pogojoco]

55 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Which didn't help Lady Hornwood, she died of starvation after eating her fingers off.

But back to this episode, in HBO Westeros, it doesn't matter one iota......apparently there IS legal annulment (as we saw with the Sam/Gilly scene last week), but whatever serves moving the plot is going to be what's accepted, de facto or de jure.

Yeah, pretty much. Even if it contradicts something said or done previously. I just pointed out Tyrion because people were pointing out Jaime as someone marriable. I mean, politics and Lannisters controlling the North were why Sansa was married off in the first place. Tyrion is technically Lord of Casterly Rock, particularly if Dany pardons him

3 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

I think Dany marrying Gendry would be a cool plot twist, but they've already gone through the trouble of building a romance with Jon. With only six episodes next season, do you guys think there's time to flesh out another relationship? I agree they brought Gendry back for a specific purpose, I just can't figure out what. 

Not even time to flesh out the Dany/Jon one. Gendry is here to be Lord of Storm's End and be smooshy with Arya. Probably.

[BitterApple]

2 minutes ago, Pogojoco said:

 

Not even time to flesh out the Dany/Jon one. 

I agree. Jon/Dany is feeling super forced to me. The only relationship that would feel authentic at this point (at least for me) is Jaime and Brienne. We've seen them slowly get to know one another over the course of a season. Jon and Dany haven't done jack besides make googly eyes at one another in a cave, yet they're supposed to end up as the great love story of the series. They really should've done ten episodes. 

[Heathrowe]

10 minutes ago, doram said:

Marry the bastard son of the Usurper who almost wiped out her house???

I'd say that's just as appealing as marrying a Lannister.  Also - someone mentioned Eilzabeth York and Henry Tudor upthread. I'm not sure which would be which as they've basically both been exiled, and they'd both be legitimizing each other in some ways. Gendry might be more appealing to those who see Dany as an extension of the bad old Mad King, and marrying him might make his birth irrelevant. I like this theory. Yes, it will tough for them to make it happen in so few episodes, but everything seems to be happening at warp speed...

[YaddaYadda]

8 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

One of the bizarre fan theories out there is that Mance was Arthur Dayne, who didn't die at the TOJ, and went North of the Wall, to assist many other "hidden" characters (including Q'uoren Half Hand, and others) to prepare humanity for the Great War to Come (ties in with "I wish you good luck in the Wars to Come" phrase we've heard 3x now).  That's one of the explanations for Mance Rayder's prowess with a bladed weapon.  Kind of crazy, but you just never know with this series, who is doing what to whom (in secret and out in the open). 

Be that as it may, you are spot-on about watching Jon fight.  Kit's really good at it, I hope it doesn't pigeon hole him as an actor in the future.

HBO just announced that the final episode this season, "The Dragon and the Wolf" will run for 79 minutes, 43 seconds.  No description of the episode was released.

I think he's alive, doubt he's Mance Rayder. But then, Mance has been a lot of different characters, including a glamoured Rhaegar because of the cloak he wears and the singing. 

The I wish you good fortune in the wars to come is a show thing. While Arthur does say that line in the books, I'm don't think Mance does.

They couldn't make that a full 80 minutes?

5 minutes ago, doram said:

Plot twist, yes. Cool? Maybe in the sense of a TWEEEEEEST for the sake of a twist that makes no narrative or logical sense.

It makes as much sense as Gendry being proud to be Robert's son. I'm sure he'd crack him if he ever came face to face with him.

[mac123x]

4 minutes ago, doram said:

Plot twist, yes. Cool? Maybe in the sense of a TWEEEEEEST for the sake of a twist that makes no narrative or logical sense.

I heard a rumor that they've hired M. Night Shyamalan to write the series finale.

Okay, I didn't hear a rumor so much as make one up.

[Heathrowe]

Right-but what I meant was that she will be seen as an interloper/outsider/daughter of the mad king. He's Robert Baratheon's son.

[FnkyChkn34]

1 minute ago, doram said:

Dany is not illegitimate. 

She's also not the rightful heir to the throne.  Robert Baratheon overthrew the Targaryans fair and square, did he not?  

[stagmania]

47 minutes ago, AshleyN said:

The wight hunt wasn't Jon's plan, it was Tyrion's, who I agree is really not having a good season (or two) in that regard.

I have seen that plan attributed to Jon and used as evidence of his stupidity everywhere, including from critics who usually get details right. The power of a character narrative on display.

25 minutes ago, doram said:

Marry the bastard son of the Usurper who almost wiped out her house???

I realize Gendry is young and attractive, but come on, y'all. He's a smallfolk laborer bastard son. He's not her equal in this universe.

[blackwing]

I agree that Daenerys and Jon Snow together seems a bit forced, but it's obvious the show is wanting to go there given the way she sat at his bedside and made googly eyes at him.  I'm not sure if we are supposed to feel disgusted that she is Jon's aunt by blood.  I know it is medieval times, or Westeros times, or whatever, and maybe things are supposed to be different that make it more OK?  But I watched "The White Queen" on Starz, and in that version of history, Richard III actually had sex with his niece, Elizabeth of York, and even though it was medieval times, I still found it disgusting.  She was his brother's daughter!

I'm curious about what the whole endgame is supposed to be.  An episode or two ago, we had Gilly basically saying that Rhaegar and Lyanna were actually married.  Which makes Jon a legitimate son.  Which would make his claim to the Iron Throne superior to that of Daenerys, assuming Westeros follows primogeniture?  I'm not sure if the endgame of Season 8 is going to be that 1) Jon is the King, 2) Jon marries Daenerys and the two of them are King and Queen co-regents in a William and Mary kind of way, 3) Jon marries Sansa (his first cousin, a bit less squicky to me than aunt/nephew) and she becomes his Queen.

For whatever reason, I have always felt like "Game of Thrones" is the story of the Starks.  And it makes the most sense to me that two Starks end up ruling Westeros.  So, I'd vote for #3.  I've just never been on the Daenerys train, and this season has shown to me that she's a fairly ineffective leader.

[Tikichick]

7 minutes ago, doram said:

Gendry's return, if it's not to match him with Arya, was fan service, down to Davos's crack about rowing.

Anyway, the point of the story is the romance between Dany and Jon. 

That's precisely why I haven't wanted Jon and Dany the entire show.   The point of all of this story shouldn't be about a romance, anyone's romance.  I want it to be about something more than that.

[Heathrowe]

4 minutes ago, blackwing said:

For whatever reason, I have always felt like "Game of Thrones" is the story of the Starks.  And it makes the most sense to me that two Starks end up ruling Westeros.  So, I'd vote for #3.  I've just never been on the Daenerys train, and this season has shown to me that she's a fairly ineffective leader.

I think Dany is going to fall short of the throne, and that will be the "bittersweet" - and while at this point, all signs point to Jon Snow on the Iron Throne, it just seems so obvious, I can't sign on. And I can't agree that the Jon-Dany romance is endgame or what the whole series has been leading to with the squicky incest. To me-the whole point of the series is the Starks, but not so much that any of them need the Iron Throne-to me it was more about their return to the North, at Winterfell. And larger story with Jon and the White Walkers and the whole end of the world if he doesn't do something about it.

[YaddaYadda]

9 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I agree that Daenerys and Jon Snow together seems a bit forced, but it's obvious the show is wanting to go there given the way she sat at his bedside and made googly eyes at him.

That's where the books are headed though and that's pretty clear.

The writers could have tried and fleshed out the interactions more instead of I don't know, having the Sand Snakes bicker, or brought Dany to Westeros a bit earlier, because let's face it, her time in Essos dragged into infinity. 

Edited August 22, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[Tikichick]

3 minutes ago, doram said:

At this point, the question is whether Dany or Jon will live long enough to see the child that they're definitely going to have together and have any kind of HEA with each other.

 

ASOIAF is Dany and Jon's story. It's a Targaryen story, which makes sense considering that the focus of all the books and the most fleshed out family are the Targaryens.

I don't think we can forget the ice part of the equation.  We began this journey with the Starks, who are a pretty fleshed out, and ancient, family themselves, with very deep roots.  Just ask Old Nan.

[YaddaYadda]

10 minutes ago, doram said:

In fairness to them, they wrapped up Essos which is more than GRRM has been able to do... Heck, he even admits that the next book's delay is because he hasn't figured out a way to untangle his Mereenese knot.

Yeah, I know. And he keeps adding characters that I can't even remember. Everything in Slavers Bay has been a massive clusterfuck.

[Oscirus]

48 minutes ago, doram said:

1. Aerys was murdered by the Kingslayer, not Robert. It wasn't fair and square.

2. Dany is reclaiming the Throne by conquest which is the highest authority in the world. 

That would mean that you're  saying that jamie was the rightful king but that's not how it works. Since the rules state the throne goes to he/she who claims  it.

She's claiming it by conquest then do so. Stop calling herself the rightful heir.

The catch the wight plan might have been Tyrions  but the dumb ass strategy was all Jon's or are we putting that on tyrion  too.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Oscirus

[screamin]

39 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

She's also not the rightful heir to the throne.  Robert Baratheon overthrew the Targaryans fair and square, did he not?  

I think even when Robert claimed the throne, he claimed it not only by right of conquest, but because he had Targaryen ancestry. So blood claim AND conquest beats conquest alone.

I think Henry VII claimed the throne after beating Richard III on both those grounds, "de jure belli et de jure Lancastraie" (sp?)

[Ocean Chick]

I don't think Jon and Sansa will end up together.  I think Jon will end up in KL, leaving Sansa to be Lady of Winterfell (Bran being the 3 eyed raven and Arya maybe going on the road with Brienne and Pod).  I'd be okay with Dany dying in childbirth and leaving the child to be raised by Jon, with Tyrion as his hand.  I'd love the last scene to be Tyrion and Varys walking away from the camera, teasing each other and showing the "start of a beautiful friendship".

Quote

 

[FnkyChkn34]

22 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

That would mean that you're  saying that jamie was the rightful king but that's not how it works. Since the rules state the throne goes to he/she who claims  it.

She's claiming it by conquest then do so. Stop calling herself the rightful heir.

The catch the wight plan might have been Tyrions  but the dumb ass strategy was all Jon's or are we putting that on tyrion  too.

Yes, this is my point as well.  Robert claimed it by conquest.  Now someone has to claim it by conquest from him and his heirs.  Dany is not the "rightful heir" to it because her family was overthrown 20-whatever years ago.  Unfortunately, Robert doesn't have an heir left, except maybe Gendry.  Dany can want it back, that's fine, but I disagree with her thinking that she's entitled to it.  She's not.

[Tikichick]

9 minutes ago, Ocean Chick said:

I don't think Jon and Sansa will end up together.  I think Jon will end up in KL, leaving Sansa to be Lady of Winterfell (Bran being the 3 eyed raven and Arya maybe going on the road with Brienne and Pod).  I'd be okay with Dany dying in childbirth and leaving the child to be raised by Jon, with Tyrion as his hand.  I'd love the last scene to be Tyrion and Varys walking away from the camera, teasing each other and showing the "start of a beautiful friendship".

IMO Sansa winds up with the Tully holdings, Arya winds up with Winterfell.

[YaddaYadda]

So cool detail I just saw on Buzzfeed. The mountain that looks an arrow is the same mountain that was the backdrop of where the Children of the Forest created the NK. 

[Pogojoco]

Dany isn't the rightful heir. If she wins by conquest, she'd have the throne.  But the show has laid out that Jon is the rightful heir, at least according to her views. But yes, Robert's side won and he got the throne. And he got it because his side won and he was a Targ descendant, so it placated some loyalists (or at least acknowledged them). The point is that Iron Throne is all pretty up in the air. 

Now, they might share the throne because they are in "love", which may be what some want and where the show is going, but I think it's rather cheap and unearned in the context of the show. Dany has been in love with the idea of sitting on the Iron Throne much longer than any interest in any guy. And it's just as easy to argue that Jon is Ice and Fire alone, let alone Dany and Jon being Ice and Fire. Or that Ice and Fire are dragons and white walkers, or magic's last revival before it reveals a new world with new rules. And I'm convinced it's more that than a big romance. A series of books about two people coming together to defeat evil and rule together would be  considerably less complicated than the unending behemoth GRRM  finds himself under. 

Back to the episode- I think Jon earns his "dumb" description in this episode because there was no clear plan for how they were going to pull this off- at least not one we saw. It doesn't matter that it was Tyrion's dumb idea, Jon decided to do it. I think Jon is unfairly called dumb other times, but he more than earned it this time. His actions gave the enemy a massive weapon.  Though actions don't seem to have any lasting consequences on this show any more, so it's probably fine. 

Edited August 22, 2017 by Pogojoco

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, doram said:

Gendry's return, if it's not to match him with Arya, was fan service, down to Davos's crack about rowing.

Anyway, the point of the story is the romance between Dany and Jon. 

I get too much of a brother and sister vibe between Arya and Gendry...and they are NOT Tarygayens. :)  How about Gendry marrying Sansa?  Ned promised her someday she would be married to someone brave and gentle and strong.  Of course we know that wasn't her type. :) But, maybe after being engaged to Joffrey and married to Ramsey it is now.  

[blackwing]

2 minutes ago, Pogojoco said:

Back to the episode- I think Jon earns his "dumb" description in this episode because there was no clear plan for how they were going to pull this off- at least not one we saw. It doesn't matter that it was Tyrion's dumb idea, Jon decided to do it. I think Jon is unfairly called dumb other times, but he more than earned it this time. His actions gave the enemy a massive weapon.  Though actions don't seem to have any lasting consequences on this show any more, so it's probably fine. 

I agree.  Even though it was Tyrion's stupid plan to begin with, the execution of the plan was all Jon.  And he did it so poorly.  After getting attacked by that wight bear you'd think that he'd be a bit more careful.  Instead, he just continues on, sees a group of 15 dead and decides that this is it and they just blindly charge into them and attack them.  Thus drawing attention of the entire dead army.  There should have been more planning and scouting, they should have looked around to see if this was just a small scouting party from the main army or if it was an isolated group.  And why not just try and sneak up behind the group and snag a straggler?

Also, why weren't any of them on horseback?  Because it was too cold for horses?  Clearly Benjen had a horse, so it was possible.  How did Jon think he was going to easily bring back the captive?

Speaking of the wight bear, weren't there at least two bears?  There was the one redshirt that was scouting ahead, we see a shadow of something in the distance that looks like a bear.  Then the scout starts running back and gets broadsided by another bear.  Why didn't the first one come over and attack after hearing and smelling the first one do so?

[BitterApple]

I don't think Jon is dumb, I think the showrunners are writing him as dumb because they couldn't think of a better plot device to get the NK his dragon.

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

I wouldn't put it past Cersei.  Unfortunately, her schemes of late seem to be working, whereas in the books her scheming usually blows up spectacularly in her face.  Wouldn't it be fabulous if this WAS one of Sansa's schemes, as you've posited, and then to have it blow up in her face?  That would make my week! 

I still think the invitation came from Tyrion (he knows Sansa's in charge of WF without Jon there)....and similar invites were sent to all of the Great Houses in Westeros, and to the Arch Maesters of the Citadel.  Having said that, WHY did he send out invitations before he knew of the success of the mission to capture a wight?  Or did he just get a message from Star Fleet Command from hyperspace?

You want Sansa to have a good plan blow up in hr face?

This looked confusing.

2 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Plus, he's taller...  ;-)

But Kit is taller then Emillia.

[Bryce Lynch]

19 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Yes, this is my point as well.  Robert claimed it by conquest.  Now someone has to claim it by conquest from him and his heirs.  Dany is not the "rightful heir" to it because her family was overthrown 20-whatever years ago.  Unfortunately, Robert doesn't have an heir left, except maybe Gendry.  Dany can want it back, that's fine, but I disagree with her thinking that she's entitled to it.  She's not.

There are different sorts of claims to thrones.  I think many would consider the claim of the child of a deposed King from a 300 year dynasty to be legally superior to that of a 1st generation King who took the throne by conquest.  They would look even less favorably on the claims of his widow who bore no surviving heirs, or any members of her family.  His bastard son, Gendry, would have a better claim than Cersei or any of her family.  

I would say Dany has a good claim by putting her birthright up against the Baratheon claim based upon a recent conquest, especially given that he left no legitimate heirs.  I would have put her claim pretty much on par with that of Stannis before he died.

But, in the end, it comes down to whoever can take the throne, by force, guile, popular support, etc.  I think if Dany took back the throne for the Targaryens, she would be seen as more legitimate than Robert was,  because she would have won it by conquest on top of having an excellent claim based upon linage.  Of course Jon is the rightful heir, though nobody but Brandon knows it at this point.  

Edited August 23, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[FnkyChkn34]

10 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

But Kit is taller then Emillia.

He is, but she still wasn't impressed.

[GrailKing]

Just now, FnkyChkn34 said:

He is, but she still wasn't impressed.

I thought she was impressed when she saw his scars.

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, doram said:

1. Aerys was murdered by the Kingslayer, not Robert. It wasn't fair and square.

2. Dany is reclaiming the Throne by conquest which is the highest authority in this world.

3. Robert cemented his claim via his Targaryen mother  so his 'overthrow' still hinged on Targaryen blood. (ironically, Dany can potentially claim the Baratheon House in the same way - as his cousin. She won't).

Seriously. ?

I don't know  if wanting to burn all of KL allows for fair and square .

It's was morally right  Aerys deserved what he got, and Dani can blame her daddy for loosing her birth right.

[Bryce Lynch]

33 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

I don't think Jon is dumb, I think the showrunners are writing him as dumb because they couldn't think of a better plot device to get the NK his dragon.

I get what you are saying, but if the show runners write you dumb, you are dumb.

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, doram said:

At this point, the question is whether Dany or Jon will live long enough to see the child that they're definitely going to have together and have any kind of HEA with each other.

 

ASOIAF is Dany and Jon's story. It's a Targaryen story, which makes sense considering that the focus of all the books and the most fleshed out family are the Targaryens.

ASOIAF has many meanings:

Ice: fire

Rhaegar and Lyanna

Son of  R & L

Jon and Danni

WW & Dragons

House Stark & House Targaryen

any and all.

I think it's part fantasy and part family, 2 families torn away by tragedies, uniting to help save a world from a threat most don't see, and eventually coming back stronger .

[YaddaYadda]

41 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

He is, but she still wasn't impressed.

That's because Drogo was a freakin' giant. 

[GrailKing]

12 minutes ago, doram said:

His abs, you mean. ;)

no his scars, I got it on good authority.

scars !

:@)

[Taget]

On Sunday, August 20, 2017 at 10:13 PM, Enigma X said:

I want to know where the dead got those heavy chains from to lift Viserion from the icy waters.

Not sure if this is considered a spoiler but after Bran the Builder built the Wall he went on to also build Westeros' first Home Depot.

On Sunday, August 20, 2017 at 10:13 PM, Skeeter22 said:

So Faceless Men just carry their faces around in their luggage? Seems very inconvenient. 

She abandoned her training so she is not a faceless man.  Rather a faceful woman.

On Sunday, August 20, 2017 at 10:42 PM, mojoween said:

So the Night King is a Targaeryen, yeah?  Or do the rules of dragon-touching cease at death.

Back in season 3 at least one of the dragons was fond of Doreah.  So putting aside the whole mindless wight thing Dragons like people are capable of questionable judgement.

23 hours ago, GrailKing said:

I still think Oath Keeper and Widows Wail need to get back to House Stark.

Know who deserves a sword?  Lyanna Mormont.  That sword was in her family for generations.  Of course John has more use for it now.  But he really should be considering it a loaner.