S07.E01: Dragonstone

[benteen]

31 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

But let's not forget that Dany literally has "madness" run in her family.  I don't characterize her that way, and I see her as equal to any other male contender, but if someone else does it could be because of her family history - not just because she's a woman.  

Definitely runs in the family...look at her brother.

[SeanC]

6 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

He's also described as being a Stark, looking like a Stark, mannerisms and acting like a Stark, etc.  (And, I understand we're in the "book talk" forum for the show, but are still ultimately talking about the audience's reaction to the character on the TV screen, are we not?)

The show audience has seldom meaningfully departed from the book audience in how it reacts to things.

[MV713]

This may be a dumb question but how far from the Wall were Bran/Meera when they were attacked at the Three Eyed Raven's tree?

Just wondering how possible it is that they escaped by foot without the White Walkers catching them.

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

 

I literally said in my last line that she has a reason to be cold. She truly does. She's suffered abuses, watched her father get killed, and so forth. For all of the talk about how much of a killer arya is and that she has lost her humanity, she shows more feeling than Sansa, which I believe was the point I was making. Many always want to bring up arya to say, "see, look, arya is truly the cold one--she kills people." 

Despite this, you see more moments of humanity from her. You see that she couldn't give up who she was and her connections to the past. That she cares about what happens to innocent people. Does this mean that Sansa doesn't care? No, I wouldn't say that. 

But, I think Sansa living her fantasy was the worst wake up call received between the two girls. She was used to the songs and didn't know why it truly was like to be a princess/queen. No real agency. It wasn't like her parents marriage. And things progressively got worse as time went on.

so, again, I can understand why she's cold and I believe it's with reason.

Arya started out more genuinely caring and compassionate between the two sisters.  I think Arya has both hardened and been able to remain compassionate and caring of others through the seasons.  We've seen her walk away from the "dying" Hound.  Yes, she did leave him to suffer and die, but IMO it was partially because she had witnessed good things in him she didn't expect based on what happened with Micah and I suspect found herself unable to actually take the action in the end.  Receiving her orders from Jaquen to kill the actress with no explanation bothered her and she couldn't do it.   During the fire she freed the prisoners from the wagon, including Jaquen.  

She has seen a lot and suffered a lot.  There are certain things she cannot forgive.  The Red Wedding was obviously a huge unforgivable for her.  Meryn Trant could not be redeemed in her eyes either.  I'm not sure I'd qualify her as bloodthirsty overall.  I think like all of the Starks of her generation she does have a certain element of bloodlust in her.  The books do a lot to voice this via the sequences involving the wolves; Ghost, Nymeria, Summer and Shaggy in particular give us a window into that element of the Stark children -- and their efforts, or not, to control that aspect.  Interestingly, of the surviving Starks Sansa is the only one we never got to "know" via her wolf.  I'd imagine that would have been an interesting perspective given Sansa's journey.  

[FnkyChkn34]

3 minutes ago, SeanC said:

The show audience has seldom meaningfully departed from the book audience in how it reacts to things.

I'm not going to belabor this, and we can agree to respectfully disagree, so this will be my last post on this topic.  I don't want to unnecessarily drag something out.  But my counterpoint to this is that there are probably hundreds of thousands (millions?) of viewers who have never read the books, so a massive amount (a majority?) of the audience just wouldn't know to make those comparisons and reactions.  I only read the books after the show came out, so my view of characters was already influenced by the actors' portrayals and the show's characterizations.  This could also be the case for many people.

[Alapaki]

4 minutes ago, MV713 said:

This may be a dumb question but how far from the Wall were Bran/Meera when they were attacked at the Three Eyed Raven's tree?

Just wondering how possible it is that they escaped by foot without the White Walkers catching them.

It helps to not think too hard about how distances and time beyond-the-wall.  

Because, even by old-school slow-zombie standards, the White Walker Army is the laziest group of undead ever.

[that one guy]

11 hours ago, Clawdette said:

I saw Neil Fingleton listed in the credits last night. He is a former NCAA basketball player (at my alma mater, UNC-goheels) and was in an episode in Season 4. 

So I decided to check out IMDB and Ian White, who played Wun-Wun, was given a credit for last night's episode, too (Giant Wight #1.). So Wun was present in Bran's dream but perhaps not in actuality.

Those two play ALL the giants. So having the actors present doesn't mean the giants were literally either Wun Wun or Mag the Mighty. They're the only 7 foot plus actors they have around, they don't like to use shorter actors for giants because they don't move like big people. 

 

12 hours ago, GrailKing said:

21 hours ago, Hanahope said:

Oh, and speaking of Sansa and her wanting to reward loyal families, there is an empty castle and land to be lead over at the Dreadfort.  I'd like to think that Jon's not going to let that stay in Bolton hands (provided there's some distant Boltan heir somewhere).  I mean really, that would be just a little too much, dontcha think?

Technically it's Sansa's as the widow, but I'm sure she want to burn it down or give it to a loyal party. 

Telling that she wants to reward loyalists with somebody else's castle, but not her own. Seriously, though, the Dreadfort should be manned and defended.  The official maps don't show anything else between Winterfell and the eastern shore, a Southern force could bypass both the neck and White Harbor and land a force at the mouth of the Weeping Water, if they had a large navy to carrry them north...

 

11 hours ago, Macbeth said:

I have to disagree with your assessment.  Unless those bodies were burned - The Night Prince will have a large reinforcement waiting for him at the Twins.  And for once those Frey men will be effective killing machines.

We've seen no evidence that the dead rise south of the Wall yet. Certainly the farmer and his daughter stayed dead. When Jon died he stayed dead until Mel resurrected him. I don't think any of the poisoned Freys will become a wight by themselves - just like the people resurrected by the Red Priests, it appears the White Walkers need to be physically present and will someone back from the dead. It doesn't appear to be a automatic process.

[Dev F]

20 minutes ago, MV713 said:

This may be a dumb question but how far from the Wall were Bran/Meera when they were attacked at the Three Eyed Raven's tree?

Just wondering how possible it is that they escaped by foot without the White Walkers catching them.

They were on horseback for most of their escape. Benjen galloped them out of danger and eventually dropped them off in the forests just north of the Wall.

[Francie]

Quote

But it still seems as if the show is moving at a snail's pace when there's so much story left to be told in so few episodes, and that the story we're seeing isn't quite as detailed and as deep as it once was.  At least that's my perception from reading about the show, and I'm curious if show-watchers feel this way too

Yes, I absolutely agree. I tried to articulate that a bit, but probably not very well. 

The deep characters aren’t there.  The dialogue feels so superficial.

Instead of, for intance, Tywin’s interactions with individuals, which are so deeply layered that I can watch them again and again, we get Lyanna making the most stereotypical (or rather seemingly anti-stereotypical, which is now stereotypical) grandstanding. We get Jaime saying “we haven’t talked about ....” and then a non-sequitor, so as to indicate to the audience “Yeah, we know this is the elephant in the room, but we’re not equipped to handle it." We get crazy! wacky! Euron.   We get the comic relief of Tormund saying “You’re a lucky man.” We get Sam and his wet shits. 

Even perhaps the best line of the episode – Sansa’s Lady Olenna-esque put down of Littlefinger not needing the last word, because she’ll assume it’d be something clever – was a poor substitute for the actual clever – and more importantly, meaningful – thing Littlefinger might have said. 

The Hound sequence fell flat to me. I know they were trying to communicate the Hound reflecting on his actions and perhaps finding religion. But that scene, too, seemed to be scratching the surface of the character development it was trying to show or the emotion it was trying to achieve.  Didn’t he already find religion last season? Didn’t he already feel like he was a different person, and thus likely remorseful for Micah or this father and daughter he robbed? Yes, then he went on a rampage, like an avenging angel. So, we’re see sawing back with him? I didn't get any sense that the Hound was some new man because he buried the people he left for dead back in Season 4.  

The change in quality of dialogue was striking to me. Granted, it was horrible in much of Season 5 as well, and then the show seemed to recover in Season 6. But I find it funny that the show runners are patting themselves on the back for having the last five minutes being without dialogue. Yes, please put Peter Dinklage in a 5-minute scene and have him say nothing. Smart choice. And for the segment of viewers viewing Daenerys arrival in Westeros with concern or dread, that montage wasn’t satisfying at all. This isn’t a show with one single hero or heroine. It’s the ensemble to end all ensembles. So to treat that moment as “the moment we’ve all been waiting for” demonstrates a lack of appreciation for or understanding of that.  And if Daenerys isn't the ultimate hero (if there even is an ultimate hero) that sequence will just seem unnecessary. 

There was no Tyrion’s witticisms, none of Varys’ reflections. and Littlefinger was literally told to not talk. Not even Bronn and his mercenary remarks. The only familial relationship explored was that of Jon and Sansa, and that’s apparently been divisive and unsatisfying to the audience.  That may be in large part because we were given too little context and motivation, and people are left to their own devices, including their biases, to interpret it. 

If there was a theme for this show it was foreshadowing.  Multiple people talked about how the wall had never fallen. Two references to a dynasty lasting 1,000 years. And a lengthy speech about how all the wars have never touched the citadel.  So nothing happened this episode other that having the characters make statements that we can point back to later and say, “Isn’t that ironic?” or “They told us that was coming.”  Those statements made with certainty fall in the first category. Those more reflective and oblique in the second.  So, we now know that the wall with fall, that the citadel will be touched by war. 

No one did anything remotely smart or interesting in this episode. The only plot development seemed to be that the BWB saw a message that is sending them to the wall. The other seeming plot development, Arya killing all the Frey adult men, wasn’t even a plot development. Did it put the Twins back into play?  Isn’t there some 15-year-old boy or an Alys Karstark female now the head of it? Wouldn’t they immediately swear fealty to Jaime and Cersei? Wouldn't they command their army to do just what Jaime told them to do? So, what even did Arya accomplish there other than exact even more revenge? She already killed Walder -- wasn't that 1,000 times more satisfying than her killing 40 Frey men we had never seen before this episode?

Other than that, Jon and Sansa bickered, Sansa revealed herself to be more like Cersei (more foreshadowing and less actual story advancement).  None of the “who gets the houses” fight probably mattered, as it was just a writing tool to show Jon and Sansa clashing.  Sam uncovered something he knew two seasons ago – wow! Euron showed up only to be sent away. Couldn’t he have just showed up with the gift when he does? Did we really need him to bring 1,000 ships to just say, “Hey, I’ll be back!” The Hound and the BWB were already aligned. Bran and Meera were a mile from the wall when we last saw them. Oh, and Dany showed up at her destination. 

The episode didn't even seem that much of a re-positioning of chess piece episode. They all were either right where they were at or where they were heading at the end of last season. 

I'm beginning to see why D&D only wanted 13 more episodes. It's all becoming filler and big events.  I hope I'm wrong on that, and we get some more of those wonderful relationships, character choices, and moments that made this show what is. 

Edited July 18, 2017 by Francie

[Shriekingeel]

My question is, how does the (eyeroll) brand new Iron Fleet move in and out of Blackwater Bay with the Targaryen fleet sitting right there at the head of the bay at Dragonstone?

[anamika]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

That didn't happen in the show.

Yeah, in the show they don't put in all the dumb shit that Sansa did but keep stressing on Ned and Robb's wrong decisions to portray them as fools.

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

She doesn't know that.

Then she should not talk about things she does not know. Does she know about Robb's decisions that destroyed his campaign? Does she know about LF's betrayal of Ned. Does she know that Ned went to Cersei and why? If she does not, then why is she pretending to have some great insight into Ned and Robb?

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

She's giving voice to the writers there, though.  That's always been the show's stance.

Notice, how she is the only one doing it. Jon, Arya and Bran all suffered one way or another from what happened as well. We don't see them criticizing Ned as a fool or accuse him of failing to protect them. Jon holds him in high esteem and I am sure so do Arya and Bran.  Even in this episode we had Arya missing her father. The Reeds helped Bran because they were sworn to house Stark. Jon is king because he has Ned Stark's blood running through his veins. Winterfell is Ned's legacy. Sansa does not deserve the North if she thinks so low of the man who is beloved in the North.

The people who criticize Ned has mostly been LF and Cersei. Sansa now joins their ranks. Great company there.

Edited July 18, 2017 by anamika

[LucyHoneychrrch]

I sincerely hope Arya didn't kill the Lannister soldiers, because I wouldn't mind more William Postlethwaite.  

[GrailKing]

38 minutes ago, MV713 said:

This may be a dumb question but how far from the Wall were Bran/Meera when they were attacked at the Three Eyed Raven's tree?

Just wondering how possible it is that they escaped by foot without the White Walkers catching them.

In season 1 when Lord Commander Mormont asked if anyone prays to the old gods, Jon and Sam stood up, they were told they can take their vows in front of the Heart tree a mile from Castle Black.

[Tikichick]

I'm starting to have second thoughts about what Sansa meant when she said she knew exactly what Littlefinger wanted.  She may be playing him more than we expect, and she may have been referring to more than the obvious. 

[MV713]

1 minute ago, GrailKing said:

In season 1 when Lord Commander Mormont asked if anyone prays to the old gods, Jon and Sam stood up, they were told they can take their vows in front of the Heart tree a mile from Castle Black.

I don't think that has anything to do with the Three Eyed Raven's cave.

I did a bit of research and it is in the Haunted Forest beyond the wall.  Another reader pointed out that Benjen did ride them most of the way on his horse (which is a bit far fetched also) but it makes more sense to me now.

[Blonde Gator]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

That didn't happen in the show.

She doesn't know that.

She's giving voice to the writers there, though.  That's always been the show's stance.

But the show's viewers are made up of both Unsullied and Sullied.  So that dog won't hunt. 

The HBO series has been at its very best when it's adhered to book canon, both in scenes, dialogue, and particularly with the character's motivations.  D&D have gone off-book, which is understandable for time purposes, trimming stories that only add to the story in minor ways (i.e. Quenten Martell).  But they've totally re-written some characters and storylines, purely to satisfy fan-fiction.  Some of them worked, extremely well (Arya & Tywin Lannister), while others fell flatter than a pancake without baking powder (Bad Pussies in Dorne).   In fact, I'd go so far to say that some of the changes that have been made have been a result of some really bad editing due to time constraints than to any change the writers intended (Waif going all stabby on Arya and then evolving into T-2 type chase scenes, with Arya magically all better in two days). 

Is GOT the series perfect?  No.  But at this point, it's better than anything on the written page.  Personally, I have my doubts that GRRM is ever going to finish the books.  I think he got caught in a trap of his own making, and he's to the point he no longer cares.  He's more or less flipped off the book readers, numerous times.  So while it's disappointing.....most book readers I know don't give a flip any longer about GRRM.  There are thousands of authors around, we can spend our money where we'd like.   Bottom line, the HBO version and the books are two different things...but it's impossible to not criticize what's missing on TV, when it impacts the story in stupid ways.

[stagmania]

11 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

If Arya really kills 7 Lannister soldiers for no reason other than them being Lannisters, then she's irredeemable to me. That act alone proves, at least in my opinion, that she's a clear sociopathic murderer and not just someone who is avenging her family.  Those soldiers did nothing to her, killed no one she knew, and even said they didn't want to be there. Absolutely no reason to kill them. 

...she didn't kill them. It's nothing but an invention of a few people in this forum. 

[Blonde Gator]

52 minutes ago, MV713 said:

This may be a dumb question but how far from the Wall were Bran/Meera when they were attacked at the Three Eyed Raven's tree?

Just wondering how possible it is that they escaped by foot without the White Walkers catching them.

Not a dumb question.  Per the book, it's North of Craster's Keep (which is NW of the main castle on the Wall) and E of the Fist of the First Men, in an area known as the Haunted Forest.  Here's a link to ASOIAF Wiki:  http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Cave_of_the_three-eyed_raven

The Walkers sent wights to catch them initially, we didn't see any Walkers after they'd escaped the 3ER's cave.   Undead Uncle Benjen helped them from a short way outside of the cave, all the way back to the Heart Tree just north of the Wall (where Jon took his vows).

[KungFuBunny]

On 7/17/2017 at 0:31 AM, MrWhyt said:

how firm a grip on the reigns of power do you suppose Robin has?

Robyn doesn't even have control of his own faculties. The person who can control and manipulate Robyn can control his army. I think Sansa is capable of manipulating Robyn to her advantage. They should get rid of LF

[tennisgurl]

It really didn't even occur to me that Arya killed those Lannister soldiers she met. I don't think Arya has ever been a remorseless psycho killer. After all, she left the Faceless Men right after she refused to kill that actress woman, and she only killed the Freys that directly participated in and celebrated the Red Wedding. Granted, in our world, killing a whole room full of people would certainly be fucked up, but this is Westeroes, where even Ned, our Hero and resident Best Guy in Westeroes, was introduced slicing a guys head off for desertion in front of his young son. It has a different sense of morality than our world. It seemed like it was a call back to Jon refusing to punish the Umber and Karstark kids for what their older relatives did. She refused to punish the Lannister soldiers for what their lords did.

As for Jon and Sansa, I think they were both right and wrong. Jon is right that they need all the Northern lords on their side for the upcoming war against the White Walkers, but Sansa is right that they have to be tough on people who betray them. I really didn't see the meeting as a huge schism between the siblings, I think it was just growing pains. Sansa certainly has good advice for Jon, but Jon and Sansa cant be shown disagreeing in front of everyone. They need to be united as Starks, and showing dissent can only make their position weaker, and make the lords less likely to follow them. They're hold is strong now, but it can easily be questioned, with Jon being a bastard, and Sansa being a woman, and they need to show nothing but strength. I think they're both smart enough to work things out and rule together.

As for her comments on the dumb choices of Rob and Ned, she wasn't wrong, in the shows universe. The show tended to focus more on their naïve choices, and not on their great sense of honor, especially Rob. In the book, Robs fall was because he felt honor demanded he marry a woman he has sex with in a moment of weakness, while in the show, he married a woman he had a crush on, even though he totally screwed over his whole war effort. Sansa wasn't wrong that they made bad choices in the TV universe, and she doesn't want Jon to fall into the same traps.

Edited July 18, 2017 by tennisgurl

[GrailKing]

21 minutes ago, MV713 said:

I don't think that has anything to do with the Three Eyed Raven's cave.

I did a bit of research and it is in the Haunted Forest beyond the wall.  Another reader pointed out that Benjen did ride them most of the way on his horse (which is a bit far fetched also) but it makes more sense to me now.

I missed read the question sorry.

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

It really didn't even occur to me that Arya killed those Lannister soldiers she met. I don't think Arya has ever been a remorseless psycho killer. After all, she left the Faceless Men right after she refused to kill that actress woman, and she only killed the Freys that directly participated in and celebrated the Red Wedding. Granted, in our world, killing a whole room full of people would certainly be fucked up, but this is Westeroes, where even Ned, our Hero and resident Best Guy in Westeroes, was introduced slicing a guys head off for desertion in front of his young son. It has a different sense of morality than our world. It seemed like it was a call back to Jon refusing to punish the Umber and Karstark kids for what their older relatives did. She refused to punish the Lannister soldiers for what their lords did.

As for Jon and Sansa, I think they were both right and wrong. Jon is right that they need all the Northern lords on their side for the upcoming war against the White Walkers, but Sansa is right that they have to be tough on people who betray them. I really didn't see the meeting as a huge schism between the siblings, I think it was just growing pains. Sansa certainly has good advice for Jon, but Jon and Sansa cant be shown disagreeing in front of everyone. They need to be united as Starks, and showing dissent can only make their position weaker, and make the lords less likely to follow them. They're hold is strong now, but it can easily be questioned, with Jon being a bastard, and Sansa being a woman, and they need to show nothing but strength. I think they're both smart enough to work things out and rule together.

As for her comments on the dumb choices of Rob and Ned, she wasn't wrong, in the shows universe. The show tended to focus more on their naïve choices, and not on their great sense of honor, especially Rob. In the book, Robs fall was because he felt honor demanded he marry a woman he has sex with in a moment of weakness, while in the show, he married a woman he had a crush on, even though he totally screwed over his whole war effort. Sansa wasn't wrong that they made bad choices in the TV universe, and she doesn't want Jon to fall into the same traps.

Maybe Sansa needs to be seen disagreeing with Jon in front of everyone, perhaps someone in particular is watching for exactly that -- and is content and complacent to see that status quo.

[taanja]

On 7/16/2017 at 9:44 PM, WatchrTina said:

Small nit -- I don't like Arya telling Lannister soldiers that she's going to kill the Queen.  It does not seem like a sneaky enough move for an assassin trained by the Faceless Men.  I presume the point of that was to show how everyone will underestimate Arya because she's a girl.  But still -- I didn't think it rang true.  Nor did their laughter in response.

I had no problem with that scene. They asked her straight up why she's going to King's Landing -- Arya hesitates then blurts out the truth. But her reply is just so preposterous-- they don't take her seriously and react by laughing nervously.

[Blonde Gator]

30 minutes ago, LucyHoneychrrch said:

I sincerely hope Arya didn't kill the Lannister soldiers, because I wouldn't mind more William Postlethwaite.  

Agree!  He was excellent.  Is he, perhaps, the son of Pete Postlethwaite?  If so, his father was in an excellent series, based on Bernard Cornwall's Sharpe series of books.   Interesting note, Sean Bean (Ned Stark) played the title character, Richard Starke.

My only complaint with that scene was that the soldiers and their uniforms were too sparkly clean.

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, taanja said:

I had no problem with that scene. They asked her straight up why she's going to King's Landing -- Arya hesitates then blurts out the truth. But her reply is just so preposterous-- they don't take her seriously and react by laughing nervously.

It was preposterous for a specific purpose.   True Lannister loyalists would have reacted much differently to any slight to their queen and Arya knew it.  She was "calling" their cards so to speak.

[LucyHoneychrrch]

17 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Agree!  He was excellent.  Is he, perhaps, the son of Pete Postlethwaite?  If so, his father was in an excellent series, based on Bernard Cornwall's Sharpe series of books.   Interesting note, Sean Bean (Ned Stark) played the title character, Richard Starke.

My only complaint with that scene was that the soldiers and their uniforms were too sparkly clean.

Yes, he's Pete Postlethwaite's son.  He hasn't been in a lot yet, but he's pretty delicious.  

[Tikichick]

For those who find it so improbable that Arya could kill Walder Frey and then go through the process of taking his face while going undetected as an unrecognized servant -- wouldn't the same questions apply as to how she served at Walder's banquet where Jamie was a guest, and where Arya subsequently had time to kill Walder's sons and bake them into a pie and serve it up to him as an unrecognized servant? 

[tennisgurl]

When Arya took off her mask, for a second it was just full on Scooby Doo for a second. "Now lets see who you really are!"

Someone mentioned on the Unsullied Board that Sansa and Jon's conflict on what threat to focus on (White Walkers or Cersei) is based around what their experiences have been, and I think that's a great point. Sansa has never seen White Walkers or ice zombies or anything like that, she's seen what Cersei and other ruthless nobles can do, so she thinks dealing with them should be their focus. Jon has certainly seen his share of ruthless assholes, but most of his experiences have been with fighting White Walkers and the Army of the Dead, and he's seen what they can do, so he thinks dealing with them should be their focus. They are both coming from their respective experiences, and its influencing how they want to run the North. Granted, I'm positive that Jon is in the right on this one, as we know that the White Walkers are coming, and they're going to be a huge problem for EVERYONE, but I can see where Sansa is coming from too.

[FnkyChkn34]

57 minutes ago, stagmania said:

...she didn't kill them. It's nothing but an invention of a few people in this forum. 

Right, I know.  But I was just weighing in on how ridiculous it would be if she did/does.

[Macbeth]

1 hour ago, that one guy said:

We've seen no evidence that the dead rise south of the Wall yet. Certainly the farmer and his daughter stayed dead. When Jon died he stayed dead until Mel resurrected him. I don't think any of the poisoned Freys will become a wight by themselves - just like the people resurrected by the Red Priests, it appears the White Walkers need to be physically present and will someone back from the dead. It doesn't appear to be a automatic process.

I am not saying it is an automatic process at all.  The Night Prince appears to be the only one who can raise the dead, and he will raise the Freys should he make it to the Twins.

[thegreathoo]

1 hour ago, MV713 said:

This may be a dumb question but how far from the Wall were Bran/Meera when they were attacked at the Three Eyed Raven's tree?

Just wondering how possible it is that they escaped by foot without the White Walkers catching them.

The land of always winter is largely unmapped.

[stillshimpy]

1 hour ago, Tikichick said:

Maybe Sansa needs to be seen disagreeing with Jon in front of everyone, perhaps someone in particular is watching for exactly that -- and is content and complacent to see that status quo.

Good point.  Sansa knows Littlefinger well enough to know he's not in some kind of lusty tizzy to get it on.  She also knows that's the game he played with Lyssa and heard what he had to say to Lyssa when he killed her.  She saw how he played his alleged desires that were really just power grabs.  

When Sansa said to Brienne "I know exactly what he wants" she wasn't talking about her hand in marriage or sexual leverage, oh sure, he'd use both but what he wants is something different than that and Sansa knows that.  She already sidestepped his attempt to turn her into Lyssa 2.0 with that "I want what I've always wanted ...." blah blah blah but she knew what part to focus on there.  Not "...I want my beautiful queen"  ....she already knew him well enough to get that the "I want what I've always wanted..." .  Sansa knows he wants the Throne in the final analysis and that people are pretty much meaningless to him as anything other than pawns in his schemes.  

So yeah, she knows that he wants Jon to fail.  He wants them all to fail so that he can win and rule over all.  He just has to destroy everything that's in place first.  

She just now understands how to play parts of that game back, so I think you're right and whereas a lot of that was sincere at least some of it was theater for LF because whereas she knows they need the Knights of the Vale, she also knows just how many Kings LF has had a hand in killing to one degree or another already.  

Edited July 18, 2017 by stillshimpy

[Francie]

41 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

For those who find it so improbable that Arya could kill Walder Frey and then go through the process of taking his face while going undetected as an unrecognized servant -- wouldn't the same questions apply as to how she served at Walder's banquet where Jamie was a guest, and where Arya subsequently had time to kill Walder's sons and bake them into a pie and serve it up to him as an unrecognized servant? 

The logistics part are a bit troubling, but much easier to hand wave.  Arya kills the Freys remotely on the property, chops them up, and goes into the kitchen late at night and cooks them.  That’s only a little difficult to believe compared to Arya walking around as Walder Frey for nearly two weeks.

The fact that Arya can take on the servant girl’s appearance wasn't troubling to me, because she’s a young girl, with the same body type (or close enough for me to believe that the show runners want us to believe that they’re the same body type).  I can assume that’s still Arya’s hands. Arya's body. She’s only wearing a different face and either a wig or that person’s hair.  It’s still Arya’s voice, but she’s altering it a bit.  

Presumably, this servant girl is not impersonating someone whom the people around her know well. She’s a new servant girl who showed up that day or a day or so beforehand – enough time to bake the Frey pies. That's how I can easily rationalize it. That's how I've been shown that the faceless assassins operate. They take on a persona, and then they arrive and weave themselves into the household. Again, she's not masquerading herself as the head of the family.  

Chap. 64 of ADWD is where Arya changes faces in the books. There’s some magic involved in the sealing of the face.  Arya had to drink a milky potion as well (so, did she bring that with her from Bravos? Get the recipe before she left? Just needed to take it once and done?) Arya even feels the remnants of the presence of the person who had that face. But that’s the extent of the magic. But it changed her face, and her face alone.

Arya asks how her face looks different, and they tell her. They don’t tell her that anything else has changed.  She’s still a young girl – an ugly girl. Once she commits the crime, she returns and Jaqen tells her that he’ll give her a new face for the next day – a prettier one. Again, a prettier face.

When I read that passage the first time, I absolutely had the understanding that Arya’s voice didn’t magically change into this dead person’s whom she had never met. Her hands didn’t change. Her height didn’t change. Her gender didn’t change. Her face changed. Hence, the faceless men.  I don’t change my reading on a second read through yesterday.

That’s why this whole take on Walder Frey’s persona and fool his family crap doesn’t sit well with me.  It takes us away from the concept of faceless people and turns them into clones and body snatchers.  No thank you.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Francie

[FnkyChkn34]

10 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

I am not saying it is an automatic process at all.  The Night Prince appears to be the only one who can raise the dead, and he will raise the Freys should he make it to the Twins.

Won't the women who Arya left alive tend to the dead and bury them?  It's not like the Twins is now completely deserted but for dead bodies.  And if they are buried, the Night Prince may not be able to find them.

Edited July 18, 2017 by FnkyChkn34
Still can't type.

[Oscirus]

5 minutes ago, Francie said:

The logistics part are a bit troubling, but much easier to hand wave.  Arya kills the Freys remotely on the property, chops them up, and goes into the kitchen late at night and cooks them.  That’s only a little difficult to believe compared to Arya walking around as Walder Frey for nearly two weeks.

The fact that Arya can take on the servant girl’s appearance wasn't troubling to me, because she’s a young girl, with the same body type (or close enough for me to believe that the show runners want us to believe that they’re the same body type).  I can assume that’s still Arya’s hands. Arya's body. She’s only wearing a different face and either a wig or that person’s hair.  It’s still Arya’s voice, but she’s altering it a bit.  

Presumably, this servant girl is not impersonating someone whom the people around her know well. She’s a new servant girl who showed up that day or a day or so beforehand – enough time to bake the Frey pies. That's how I can easily rationalize it. That's how I've been shown that the faceless assassins operate. They take on a persona, and then they arrive and weave themselves into the household. Again, she's not masquerading herself as the head of the family.  

Chap. 64 of ADWD is where Arya changes faces in the books. There’s some magic involved in the sealing of the face.  Arya had to drink a milky potion as well (so, did she bring that with her from Bravos? Get the recipe before she left? Just needed to take it once and done?) Arya even feels the remnants of the presence of the person who had that face. But that’s the extent of the magic. But it changed her face, and her face alone.

Arya asks how her face looks different, and they tell her. They don’t tell her that anything else has changed.  She’s still a young girl – an ugly girl. Once she commits the crime, she returns and Jaqen tells her that he’ll give her a new face for the next day – a prettier one. Again, a prettier face.

When I read that passage the first time, I absolutely had the understanding that Arya’s voice didn’t magically change into this dead person’s whom she had never met. Her hands didn’t change. Her height didn’t change. Her gender didn’t change. Her face changed. Hence, the faceless men.  I don’t change my reading on a second read through yesterday.

That’s why this whole take on Walder Frey’s persona and fool his family crap doesn’t sit well with me.  It takes us away from the concept of faceless people and turns them into clones and body snatchers.  No thank you.

Not to mention that she had to keep up all the duties of Frey while waiting for the sons to arrive. Are we supposed to believe that taking on a persons face means that  you gain their knowledge? If not then how the hell did Arya learn how to run a friggin castle?

Edited July 18, 2017 by Oscirus

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, Tikichick said:

I'm starting to have second thoughts about what Sansa meant when she said she knew exactly what Littlefinger wanted.  She may be playing him more than we expect, and she may have been referring to more than the obvious. 

I would not be surprised if her thing with Jon in the great hall is all smoke on her part, whether Jon knows or not, I can't say, but if I was Sansa I keep him isolated for his sake as well as hers.

A secret is only a secret if only 1 knows of it.

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

I would not be surprised if her thing with Jon in the great hall is all smoke on her part, whether Jon knows or not, I can't say, but if I was Sansa I keep him isolated for his sake as well as hers.

A secret is only a secret if only 1 knows of it.

My thoughts exactly.

[Francie]

1 hour ago, stagmania said:

...she didn't kill them. It's nothing but an invention of a few people in this forum. 

I wouldn't call it an "invention" to bring it up as a possibility.  That scene may be a possible bait and switch, and some viewers may well be enjoying a morsel right now, not even aware of being hooked.

Why do I think it might be a bait and switch? Because of the juxtaposition to the Hound's reflection and possible remorse at the farmhouse. And, personally, because I think the whole scene played wonky. It wasn't so much about showing us that these individuals are human, but they are just the most lovable band of soldiers you ever did see. Brand new father! Wine making good son! Angelic voiced Ed Sheeran! They were made so likable and so nice, it felt like a set up so we'd all go "Oh man, Arya, how could you?" And the set up is even juicer because we were just shown how thoughtful and kind Arya was in letting the Frey women live. 

If -- and it's still an if -- this is the route the show goes down, it'll show just how dark Arya has become.  Even that moment, where the men show themselves to be kind and give her food, didn't sway her. She's rotten to the core.  Now, I hope she isn't rotten to the core. Arya's one of my favorite -- second favorite, in fact -- characters on the show. But I call 'em like I see 'em. And this sticks out to me as a possibility. 

It's also in line with Melisandre's reaction to Arya on the show and Jenny's wood witch friend's reaction to Arya in the books. They see she brings death and grief with her. 

We'll see.  I hope I'm wrong.  I'm not even saying for sure that that's what happened. But the thought has occurred to me, and I'm a bit wary.  So I don't think it's accurate to describe mentioning that possibility as an "invention"

[Tikichick]

26 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Not to mention that she had to keep up all the duties of Frey while waiting for the sons to arrive. Are we supposed to believe that taking on a persons face means that  you gain their knowledge? If not then how the hell did Arya learn how to run a friggin castle?

IMO Walder's day to day position in his household wasn't particularly onerous.  We also have to remember the length of time Arya spent as cupbearer to one Tywin Lannister, watching, listening, learning the whole time.  So much so that even Tywin clued into the fact that his cupbearer had much going on between the ears.  With everything else Arya has managed I'm pretty sure "running the castle" was done without breaking a sweat.

[stillshimpy]

13 hours ago, WindyNights said:

That actually does make her a serial killer though. Even if the guys she kills may be bad and she reasons for it, she's still embarking on a killing spree that won't let up. She's what people would call a mission-oriented serial killer.

Serial Killers kill with no apparent motive other than to kill.  As you say, she's a mission-oriented killer, but that is not an interchangeable term with being a serial killer.  She has a high body count and that makes her a killer, I'm not seeking to deny that.  So do most people on this show and it's not a barrier to still viewing them as full people.  

Similarly, being a Serial Killer would not be an interchangeable term with being a sociopath (which was the term I used) although, it's absolutely usually something that goes hand-in-hand, apparently there are sociopaths who never harm a soul.  People use the terms psychopath and sociopath interchangeably and they aren't interchangeable.  Sociopaths have the ability to understand right and wrong.  They even have a conscience, even if it doesn't stop them (often, there are literally people who classify as sociopaths who don't break societies laws ) and they may have a much weaker understanding of right and wrong, but they aren't incapable of knowing the difference.  Really easy example:  that serial killer in Georgia who was caught because even though he'd murdered a string of women, the last woman he abducted had her dog with her.  He released the dog at a gas station/rest because he thought it was wrong to kill the dog.   That's the way he was found.   Her dog was found alive and was microchipped.  So they checked all available security footage and matched the guy to a drifter who had been seen in the area and speaking to the victim prior to that.   She was trained in self-defense, it's a thoroughly awful story, but he was caught because he for whatever fucked up reason in his head, was able to differentiate between right and wrong enough to understand "I shouldn't kill this dog for no reason" ...and yet wasn't able to apply that to a person.  Point being that he clearly was capable of doing so he was just actively choosing not to because he wanted to kill her. 

Sorry for that grim real-world gig but there are a lot of reasons that Arya is not a sociopath and there are other that would really take her out of the Serial Killer realm too.  Arya is an incredibly traumatized person but she's killing people for vengeance not because she's compelled to kill or has lost all sight of what is right and wrong.  

She's a killer but she's not even a contract killer or a mercenary.  She kills people she believes are her enemies, the enemies of her family, or responsible for the death and suffering of her family.   Right up until she saw Robb at the Redd Wedding, where she seemingly suffered a full-on psychotic break (and my god, who could blame her, even if the way that manifests is horrifying to me) Arya had an incredibly strong sense of right and wrong.  She's not a sociopath, she's not a psychopath and she's not a serial killer.  

Now, she's in need of a thundering herd of psychiatrists at this point but she's very damaged by things that were done to her and in front of her.  She was broken in a lot of very jagged ways, as was Sansa, and the shards can be either sharp or brittle depending on the person but what I saw at that campfire was a person who, having achieved huge chunks of her "I will avenge my murdered family" goal, had to ask herself who she was killing and whether or not they personally deserved it.  

For all the world, it looked like she took a damned pass on killing enemy soldiers because she saw them as human beings.   It wasn't an automatic thing to her, clearly, she threw out things that were tests but she didn't kill those soldiers the last we saw.  Even if the lot of them turn up as corpses, unless we see her do it, the last we saw she was eating dinner with them and not killing the shit out of everyone.  

Now, maybe the next time we see her she'll be stuffing whatever meager possessions they possessed into her pockets as she walks away from their slaughtered bodies with a cold smile on her face, or maybe we just saw the first moment of clarity in her healing process.  

I'm hoping for the latter.  Frankly, I hope that Arya gets a chance to kill the living hell out of Cersei and doesn't do it because she realizes it won't fix anything but it's this show so pretty much no chance for that but I can hope.  

Edited July 18, 2017 by stillshimpy

[Oscirus]

2 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

Serial Killers kill with no apparent motive other than to kill

Not true at all, most serial killers have a motive whether it's revenge, financial, etc.  Only reason why I wouldn't call Arya one is that she doesn't take time off between killings like serial killers tend to do. 

[thegreathoo]

Arya has a list.  Anyone in the way of the goal will die.

Cersei, the mountain, and the executioner are on the list.  She is headed that way.  That will be spectacular.  I wish a whole episode was dedicated to that.

Also, Meli, Beric and Thoros are on the list.

[stillshimpy]

Quote

Not true at all, most serial killers have a motive whether it's revenge, financial, etc.  Only reason why I wouldn't call Arya one is that she doesn't take time off between killings like serial killers tend to do.

::::Hey Everybody!! Right here is where you can insert me cursing the fuck out of these quote boxes for your entertainment:::::

2

 

Quote

No actually.  A serial killer is defined as someone who kills compulsively.  It's just a commonly misused term.   I can get you more sources if you want but it's simply a misused term.  

Edited July 18, 2017 by stillshimpy
Edited: So when I am found to go on a spree murder of quote boxes, you will all know my motivations.

[FnkyChkn34]

4 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Not true at all, most serial killers have a motive whether it's revenge, financial, etc.  Only reason why I wouldn't call Arya one is that she doesn't take time off between killings like serial killers tend to do. 

Or their motive is because they are sociopaths and they like killing.  Their motive is to make themselves happy.  Serial killers can be explained (or not explained) in many, many different ways.  I think all of the above can be correct because each circumstance is different.

[Tikichick]

For book readers I think the wolves give good insight into the mindsets of the Stark children.  We get very strong indications that it's difficult for Bran on many levels to return from his sojourns as Summer, including enjoying the blood on his palate.  Shaggydog is depicted as virtually uncontrollable, but with Rickon a mere toddler in the books it's more difficult to get lots of insight there.  Not much was said about Grey Wind overall, and Lady was essentially a non starter.  Ghost is menacing and has been incredibly vicious, but is probably depicted as the most disciplined of the pups, ready to listen to Jon's commands.

Nymeria seemed to share Arya's world view of right/wrong and intervening when she saw something wrong happening -- and then she was suddenly thrust out into the wilderness to survive on her own however she could, much like Arya.  Most of our knowledge on her has merely been reports of wolfpacks or howling in the distance.  As a book reader, I have been impatiently awaiting her reunion with Arya.  Budget likely precludes me from getting my wish onscreen, but I think the symbolism of the name of her wolf tells us that Arya can be hard, tough and a killer -- but not unjustly so.

[stillshimpy]

I think there's also an argument to be made for common usage determining meaning, by the way, so please understand that above is just a semantic argument vs.  actually negating the central point:  

 

Girlfriend has a murder problem.  Here's hoping she works that out, no matter how it is labeled.  But I am interested in her motivations and if they can be sussed out in time for her to not spend the vast majority of her life that way which was what I took the contrasting Hound scenes to be exploring. 

[Tikichick]

I believe serial killers are so labeled because they are sociopaths with a compulsion to kill, which is different from a motive.  They need the feelings they get from killing.

Without any qualifications in psychiatry or psychology whatsoever I will go out on a limb and say that Ramsey Bolton was a sociopathic personality with compulsions to kill, compulsions to torture and compulsions to terrorize.  If I had to guess I would say that his compulsions to torture and terrorize were much stronger than his compulsions to kill and that often he killed for motives other than his compulsions, i.e. the murder of Roose, his stepmother and newborn brother.

[stillshimpy]

So moving on from the evidence of extensive trauma in all things Stark:

Jorah's appearance:  The Stonemen lose their humanity entirely, don't they?  Is that what's happening to Jorah in that cell?  It was obvious when Sam was on yet another round of pan removal, I have to admit to having been somewhat fascinated because clearly, he's removing them from cells which meant that "Oh another round of....wait, no this will be different shit..." and Jorah's arm darted out in that positively deranged manner, what occurred to me was not, "Yay, it's Jorah!"  because even though I recognized the voice, I was more struck by the "Oh shit, it's Jorah...and he just lunged his infected arm at Sam like he's becoming a Stoneman".  

I shudder to think what condition he'll be in by the time he finally sees Dany again.   

[piequinn35]

It is called "urge" to kill for serial killers. Arya is not a serial killer, she is only doing it for revenge.

[stillshimpy]

I wil spare you all the reasons I'm posting so strangely, I'm having a tech failure and I apologize) on the whole, "Everything before the word 'but' is horseshit"  just made me roll my eyes so hard.  I've seen that argument in the real world too and it's just as false in the real world.   Presenting balance and contrast does not negate anything.  "You're a good man, but you need to try ...." etc.  Just because someone identifies part of a truth doesn't mean there couldn't be more to it.   Or that there are never instances in which there is a counterbalancing point to be made within the same thought. 

However, what I did enjoy about the scene was that it was such a clear illustration of what the Stark mindset is.  It's either/or ...it can't be this AND that.  

Edited July 18, 2017 by stillshimpy