S07.E01: Dragonstone

[GrailKing]

12 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Technically she's had Littlefinger and to some extent Cersei  in her circle. The others were either using or protecting her. Not really sharing their knowledge with her. If anything,  I'd argue of all the people to emulate, Cersei's the wrong one since her plans blow up in her face 100 percent of the time.

Don't need to verbal knowledge, as actions  AKA visual training, is a big part of learning, along with hands on, so Sansa has learned by many people, now she needs to know to use the correct form at the proper time.

Edited July 17, 2017 by GrailKing

[Francie]

Quote

 But once she has Walder's face, she's pretty much got the run of the household, so any part of her plan that come after that -- procuring the poison, lacing the wine, assembling all the Freys, etc -- doesn't seem at all inexplicable to me.

That only works if you believe that donning the mask somehow transforms her into a 6 foot tall, frail man.  That's where it loses me.

Every time the waif, Arya, or Jaqen took off a mask previously, we watched them take off the mask, but their bodies didn't transform.  We wouldn't see it transform on screen, at least.

So, I've always understood that they would choose a mask that went along with their body type.  They had a plethora of masks from which to choose in order to create a persona that would allow them to infiltrate as seamlessly as possible into someone’s life.

They also weren’t going around and masquerading as people’s friends, relatives, lovers, etc. That just makes this all so cartoonish. 

I would have given Arya a pass if she just sat at Walder Frey's table for a moment. But, if she's walking around, barking orders and planning banquets, that gets a little hard to swallow. Can Arya kill the Mountain (again) take his face, and suddenly be nearly 8 feet tall? 

It bends the rules too much and lowers the stakes going forward.  I can suspend disbelief quite well, but this is venturing into "anything goes!" territory. Ugh. I like my writing to be much, much smarter than that. 

They were too greedy with this, all for a momentarily enjoyable scene.  

Quote

  She killed the men that were actively responsible for the slaughter of her family, where as Sansa wants to hold these men's children responsible for their fathers actions. Arya literally kills those who have participating in harming/killing her family. So, shows mercy and kindness to others.

She killed all Frey adult men.  It just happened to be oh so convenient for her that they all happened to be cheering on the red wedding carnage. 

Edited July 17, 2017 by Francie

[FnkyChkn34]

5 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

She killed the men that were actively responsible for the slaughter of her family, where as Sansa wants to hold these men's children responsible for their fathers actions. Arya literally kills those who have participating in harming/killing her family. So, shows mercy and kindness to others.

How? Arya is taking revenge on those who have murdered her family and not for petty/trivial reasons or to get power. Arya doesn't feel entitled to anything. Hell, most, if not all, of the people she has killed gloated in the harm they've caused her and her family.

 

2 minutes ago, Normades said:

Right.  Plus, she made sure the girl at the Frey event did not drink the poison.  I agree she has only paid retribution to those directly involved in hurting her family. 

One argument on the flip side is that it's not up to her.  She doesn't have any power or authority to dole out justice - so she's just as bad as they are and a mass murderer.

[Tikichick]

41 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

That's Arya's problem - she doesn't think.  She's not very intelligent, in my opinion.

 

40 minutes ago, quazimodo said:

Because Sansa can do no right which is why every minor infraction she makes is debated to death even whilst Arya is killing her way through Westeros.

IMO part of the point is that neither Stark girl is the same as the girls we met in episode one.   We've seen Sansa realize and acknowledge this about herself more than once.  Notably when Brienne tells her about meeting Arya and the fact she wasn't acting much like a lady, Sansa's wry smile and acceptance that, well, no, she wouldn't have been, tells us she knows that being a lady was never what her sister was interested in, and that Sansa now understands maybe Arya's idea wasn't so bad.  When Sansa and Jon are reunited she apologizes for her horrid treatment of him in the past.  When he attempts to brush it off, she insists until he acknowledges it -- and that they've moved past it. 

Arya has done awfully well to survive all she has for someone who doesn't think.  She spent how long under the nose of the Boltons and the Lannisters without being outed as the girl they were desperately searching for?  She survived the experience and training of the House of Black and White by being stupid?

We've seen Sansa's growth from her girlish fantasies about being a great lady and eventually queen to the present, where she sees her old life at Winterfell as better than being a queen any day.  Petyr Baelish is well known for manipulating everyone and everything.  Yet I have no doubt that Sansa does indeed understand exactly what he wants -- and that she is likely biding her time to see to it that he gets exactly what he deserves.

[ybrik]

I enjoyed this episode. It was a good opening for the season. It set everyone in place and as Dani said "Shall we begin?"

Cersei continual descent into madness is always entertaining. Not surprising that she still hasn't learned from past mistakes and seems to be entertaining the idea of getting help from Euron. 

Not sure where the idea that Cersei always kills those who have crossed her comes from. She got lucky that the boar killed Robert. It was a bad plan that a lot had to go right for it to work. Her only other successful assassination is the blowing up of the Sept and that was her using what Aerys had left. IT wasn't like it was an idea that she came up with on her own to solve her problem. Also as others pointed out it may have temporarily gave her a crown it hasn't really made her position any more secure. Let's face it she hasn't been successful in killing the two people she hates most Sansa and Tyrion. 

Definitely a bit worried that Tormund is going to one place that the Hound saw the WW heading. 

The issue with Jon and Sansa is very understandable. They are from two different worldviews. They grew up in two different environments, Jon in a military type institute and Sansa in a political institute. Jon is looking to secure the North and I think Sansa is looking to secure the Starks. Giving the two castles/lands to loyal supporters may gain an alliance with those new lords but just because the castle has new lords doesn't mean the castle is loyal to them. Sansa saw this when she came to marry Ramsay. Sure the Boltons were in control the people of Winterfell were still loyal to the Starks. Who is to say the people of Karhold and the Last Hearth won't be just as loyal to their lords and want to aide the ousted lords? If there wasn't the WW coming than Sansa's idea could work in the long term but Jon needs every able body person available. 

I think Sansa is right to be worried about Cersei but from what Jon is aware of he does need to focus on  the WW. I do think if he finds out about Euron joining the Lannister (if that does happen) and continues to ignore this threat than I might have a problem with it. The Ironborn fleet is much more able to invade the North than the Lannister's army. 

Surprised how little of Dany we saw. Wouldn't be surprised if we get a lot of her next week.

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

 

One argument on the flip side is that it's not up to her.  She doesn't have any power or authority to dole out justice - so she's just as bad as they are and a mass murderer.

 

That argument loses a little steam for me when I remember the eager girl counting the moments to be reunited with her big brother at last -- only to arrive just in time to see his body, complete with his wolf's head sewn in place of his own.  All in the aftermath of witnessing her father's beheading.

That kind of stuff has to leave a mark. 

[stagmania]

35 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

What did having ES as a singer take away from the idea they were trying to tell, nothing, it actually enhanced that scene and it didn't matter if it was ES, SR or a nobody it was the scene NOT the singer.

I already answered this. You just have a different opinion, which is fine. No need to get upset that people disagree with you.

3 minutes ago, Francie said:

She killed all Frey adult men.  It just happened to be oh so convenient for her that they all happened to be cheering on the red wedding carnage. 

All adult Frey men were part of the plot to murder the Starks. 

[Lady Iris]

Daenerys: Tyrion?

Tyrion: Yes my Queen?

Daenerys: Is the water warm enough?

Tyrion: Yes my Queen.

Daenerys: Shall we begin?

Cue Computer Blue!

 

I can't help it, I hear "Shall we begin?" and I'm hearing Wendy and Lisa!

[FnkyChkn34]

3 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

 

That argument loses a little steam for me when I remember the eager girl counting the moments to be reunited with her big brother at last -- only to arrive just in time to see his body, complete with his wolf's head sewn in place of his own.  All in the aftermath of witnessing her father's beheading.

That kind of stuff has to leave a mark. 

Of course, but a revenge killing is still murder.  Westeros has some laws; pretty sure that still counts as murder there.  (But, like I mentioned before, I'm biased because I'm not an Arya fan.  So it's ok to agree to disagree.)

[benteen]

Arya has kind of taken on the Lady Stoneheart role, dropping as many bodies as she can in pursuit of revenge.  I've always said that Lady Stoneheart is the Ghost of Arya Future if she continues down this dark path.  Meanwhile, the six-times-dead Beric Dondarrion has gotten an extended life on the show in the absence of Lady Stoneheart and teaming up with the Hound has turned out great on the show.

Edited July 17, 2017 by benteen

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, benteen said:

Arya has kind of taken on the Lady Stoneheart role, dropping as many bodies as she can in pursuit of revenge.  Meanwhile, the six-times-dead Beric Dondarrion has gotten an extended life on the show in the absence of Lady Stoneheart and teaming up with the Hound has turned out great on the show.

Which I think has to be significant.  As I said upthread, couldn't take my eyes off THAT sword being thrust in the earth where those innocent victims were at long last being buried -- by the one who murdered them, after he saw very interesting things in the flames -- and notably has a particular personal history with fire himself.

[Hanahope]

Notably, Arya didn't kill any Frey wives or children.  She only killed the adult men who were active participants in the murder of her family.  I found it interesting that in her speech to the men, as they died, she said how if they wanted to "do the job right" they would have rooted out all of the Starks and killed them, but they didn't.  Well, she didn't do that either, since she didn't kill any Frey children.  

I didn't mind Ed Sheehan.  Frankly, if my husband hadn't have said something (which he obviously read about on the internet), I'm not 100% sure I would have realized it was him.  I might have said, hmmm he looks a little familiar, and left it at that, and then later on go, "oh, that's why his voice sounded so good."  Its not like the part required any actual "acting".

I am curious as to the role that Beric will play, given the differences in the book.  Will he end up "sacrificing" his life for another Stark instead?

Edited July 17, 2017 by Hanahope

[screamin]

13 hours ago, Gwen-Stacys said:

I completely agree with this and don't understand where all this "Jon is condescending to Sansa" is coming from. He straight up told her to voice her disagreements with him, just not in public. This is also not a "just Jon" thing. Dani had the same issue with Jorah and Sir Barriston back in season 3. I also took his "by listening to you?" question as "so in order to be smart, I have to do everything you tell me to do?" more than condescension. And he says it teasingly and you see him visibly soften when she asks him if that would be so bad. 

 

Trouble is,  Jon is keeping the council format we saw last season, in which he has all his principal lords throw ideas at him, and he decides then and there what to do with them. We saw last season his lords disagree with him to his face about his ideas, and he had to have little Lady Mormont save his bacon with a rousing speech when he couldn't manage to convince them himself. Despite this, Jon's obviously decided to keep doing it this way. His lords bring up the idea of tearing down the traitors' strongholds as an example to future traitors. Sansa (who is one of Jon's principal supporters and therefore has at least as much right to speak at the meeting as little Lady Mormont) sensibly points out that this is a waste of valuable defensible strong points, and counterproposes they go to loyal families.  (I am pretty sure this does not mean Sansa was advocating for the kids' execution, probably just being sent to be raised by Stark loyalists, just BTW).

Jon disagrees and states his views. Last season we saw his lords disagree with him to his face at this same council. We see the lords do the same thing this season, when Jon states that girls as well as boys of 10 and over must train for fighting and they immediately protest and argue with him about it, and must again be shamed into agreeing with him by little Lady Mormont. Are the lords 'undermining' him in disagreeing with him to his face? Why are the lords allowed to do it, if so, but Sansa alone must be rebuked? Jon obviously values this kind of meeting as a source of ideas. Sansa does have experience and info that could be useful. Forbidding her and her alone from disagreeing with him publically shuts off her potentially valuable contributions and incidentally makes her less than the lords who are free to disagree to his face. If Jon wants to make a special case out of her, forbidding her to disagree with him in public when all the other lords are free to do so, then it really does behoove him to discuss his agenda with her in private and get her views and tell her his before going public with his decisions. He should do this not JUST because she's a source of power to him, at least as valuable to him as any of his lords (if not more so); he should also do it because she's his bloody sister and he owes her more than just telling her to shut up and mind her embroidery if she disagrees with him and let the menfolk talk (and disagree with him if they want to).

[LadyArcadia]

Sooo... Euron is getting the horn for Cersei, right?   This will be interesting....

[GrailKing]

15 minutes ago, stagmania said:

I already answered this. You just have a different opinion, which is fine. No need to get upset that people disagree with you.

All adult Frey men were part of the plot to murder the Starks. 

You think because I emphasized NOT I was upset with you or others, you and others WOULD know if I was upset, I don't get upset about fantasy with anyone.

I believe I mentioned more than once people will disagree and I'm okay with it.

[screamin]

3 minutes ago, doram said:

Haven't we seen what happens to little Lords and Ladies who are deposed of their ranks but are made to remain in their former homes without protection or the King's favor?

Under the Starks, they get raised like Theon?

[GrailKing]

3 minutes ago, doram said:

Haven't we seen what happens to little Lords and Ladies who are deposed of their ranks but are made to remain in their former homes without protection or the King's favor?

If king is a bolton or Lannister I agree, I don't think Jon or Sansa fall into that group, I also said be warded at WF etc, gave more then one option.

[FnkyChkn34]

1 minute ago, Hanahope said:

Notably, Arya didn't kill any Frey wives or children.  She only killed the adult men who were active participants in the murder of her family.  I found it interesting that in her speech to the men, as they died, she said how if they wanted to "do the job right" they would have rooted out all of the Starks and killed them, but they didn't.  Well, she didn't do that either, since she didn't kill any Frey children.  

Exactly.  Shouldn't Arya learn from others' mistakes, especially when she's criticizing those mistakes, and not make them herself?  Another reason why I don't think she's all that smart.  Impulsive and street smart, but not exactly intelligent.

[stillshimpy]

14 hours ago, SeanC said:

According to the producers they did it for Maisie, because she loves Ed Sheeran.

 

I'm going to out myself as the one person who liked the cameo and here's why:  Great Gods of Olympus, I get so damned tired of the complete dearth of decency of characters on this show.  In the books, it turns out it isn't quite the "good luck finding that stash of powdered unicorn horn, it will solve all your problems!"  substance that it typically is in the series and I find it fucking wearing that the only good people in this series end up dying hideously or constantly being abused specifically because people use that goodness to fuck with them. 

So aside from the fact that I only vaguely recognized Ed Sheeran, although I did keep saying to my husband, "God, that kid is a dead ringer for that guy....what is his name...sings some song about loving someone until he's old..." and yes, I absolutely took all the way until the end of the episode to combine all available evidence "Huh, he really had a beautiful voice too and I was so damned relieved that it was just a group of guys, sitting around, singing songs and sharing some wine who weren't suddenly 'or we could all turn into gang rapists and maybe cannibals after that before the second set' posse of every base, nasty, horrible thing a human can contain...that was like a palate cleanser for the brain, a scene that apparently existed just to give us a reason to give two full damns about what happens to this entire world..." before I finally realized, "Oh, it was that guy and the reason they didn't all turn into "woo hoo, hit her in the head with heavy things and whatnot..." because it was Ed Sheeran.  

 

Well, I will take it.  I will take pretty much any uplifting scene that seemingly also existed to help Arya recall that a lot of good people end up being pawns of the bad.   I get that it reeked of stunt casting to others but as a for instance, my husband had no idea who Ed Sheeran is even after I sang him part of the love-you-until-decrepitude song, played part of for him too and his reaction?  "Yeah, I have no idea who that guy is but he has a good voice" ...and there are going to be people in the audience for whom that will be the case.  

Frankly, I'm all for stunt casting if it gives the narrative a few people worth caring about outside of the main cast.  

We paid for it though. Thanks for the shit tsunami, HBO.  Jeebus.  

Edited July 17, 2017 by stillshimpy

[Oscirus]

7 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

The camera shows the assistance in details and there are only grown men.  Actual quotes: "l gathered every Frey who means a damn thing", "The men who helped me slaughter the Starks at the Red Wedding" crowd: *cheers proudly*, "Brave men, all of you, butchered a woman etc." = Arya killed off those who participated in those atrocities and not every Frey.

People who were too young to be at the red wedding could be of age now. I don't see people interrupting Frey's speech to say they weren't there, especially after they were just poisoned.

 

I think the problem with Sansa isn't what she said but when she said. When jon is making his royal decrees, that's not the time to debate.  

[Constantinople]

23 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

...a revenge killing is still murder.  Westeros has some laws; pretty sure that still counts as murder there.

I don't see Cersei f House Lannister, First of Her Name, Queen of the Andals and the First Men, Protector of the Seven Kingdoms  in any rush to bring Walder Frey to justice

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, Constantinople said:

I don't see Cersei f House Lannister, First of Her Name, Queen of the Andals and the First Men, Protector of the Seven Kingdoms  in any rush to bring Walder Frey to justice

With Baylor's Sept likely still smouldering that would have been the ultimate act of the pot calling the kettle black I'd say.

[FnkyChkn34]

3 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I don't see Cersei f House Lannister, First of Her Name, Queen of the Andals and the First Men, Protector of the Seven Kingdoms  in any rush to bring Walder Frey to justice

Nope, probably not.  But that still doesn't mean that it's up to Arya to dispense justice.  Now who is going to seek revenge on her and call it justice?  Long, downward spiral, but I guess that's what makes the show.

 

ETA:  And don't get me wrong, it's not that I ever thought that anyone would enforce the laws and punish Frey accordingly.  It's just that I still don't think it's up to Arya to do it, and what she did is still murder and makes her no better than him.  Again, that spiral...

Edited July 17, 2017 by FnkyChkn34

[GrailKing]

12 hours ago, anamika said:

If Sansa thinks that secret assassins send by Cersei are out to get them, then she should be more specific.

Her all seeing brother is en route, unfortunately Jon won't be there and Jon seems to forget or maybe never told about the attempt on Bran's life.

Sansa does have this correct from her knowledge and her experiences, Jon seems to forget his own assassination and news all around Westeros is abundence about Cersei.

There is nothing evil,wrong or smacking of betrayal on the part of either Starks, they base things on facts and situations they actually lived through.

[Shanna Marie]

7 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

I was so damned relieved that it was just a group of guys, sitting around, singing songs and sharing some wine who weren't suddenly 'or we could all turn into gang rapists and maybe cannibals after that before the second set' posse of every base, nasty, horrible thing a human can contain...that was like a palate cleanser for the brain, a scene that apparently existed just to give us a reason to give two full damns about what happens to this entire world...

And in a weird way, that made it kind of tense because we were expecting something awful to happen, so there was a lot of suspense waiting for that other shoe to drop. I wonder, though, if there might have been some plot/character purpose there, if it's the first step on Arya's journey back to humanity, having to be reminded that there are good people, and maybe setting the stage for her to choose something other than death and revenge.

[screamin]

6 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

And in a weird way, that made it kind of tense because we were expecting something awful to happen, so there was a lot of suspense waiting for that other shoe to drop. I wonder, though, if there might have been some plot/character purpose there, if it's the first step on Arya's journey back to humanity, having to be reminded that there are good people, and maybe setting the stage for her to choose something other than death and revenge.

Even Lannister good people.

[Hanahope]

Oh, and speaking of Sansa and her wanting to reward loyal families, there is an empty castle and land to be lead over at the Dreadfort.  I'd like to think that Jon's not going to let that stay in Bolton hands (provided there's some distant Boltan heir somewhere).  I mean really, that would be just a little too much, dontcha think?

[Francie]

Quote

All adult Frey men were part of the plot to murder the Starks. 

Yes, and as I said, how wonderfully convenient that is for this gimmick of a scene to work. I’m absolutely agreeing that’s the way Dan/David/Bryan wrote it.  It was a cheap, convenient way to tell the story they wanted in that scene, which was only "isn't Arya bad ass?"!

Before this, we’ve had stories about people who were forced to play a role in violence they didn’t want.  The master who Dany hanged, whose son later relayed that her father objected and was outvoted.  Did he deserve Dany’s justice? That was a question GoT asked.

 In the scene where Robb had the “I was only the look out!” Karstark executed had at least something to say about violence.  It’s no excuse to participate and help the conspiracy along, just because you didn't get your hands dirty.

In the books, Merritt Frey particpated in the wedding somewhat reluctantly. His role was to get one of the Northern lords drunk. If he had been included in this Arya banquet scene, do you think he would have been hooting and hollering.  I think he would have groaned and bent his head down.  Don’t misunderstand, I don’t think he’s filled with remorse. But I didn’t see a guy who would have gone, “Yeah! Woop! Woop!” about his role in killing Robb, Catelyn, and Talisa/Jeyne.  

Here, however, the writers here made it so damn easy. All Frey men were involved in the plot. All Frey men took great pleasure in their part. And thus they all deserve to die! There wasn't a three-dimensional thing about that scene. Great acting by the actor playing Arya playing him. But, other than that, it was a third-rate action movie revenge scene. 

Edited July 17, 2017 by Francie

[GrailKing]

12 hours ago, ChromaKelly said:

Robb beheaded a Karstark and look where it got him. I get where Sansa was coming from, but Jon is in the right here. They don't need to piss off those houses even more. They need them back and loyal.

He may be in the right, just as Sansa is ( and she did not advocate their death ) as a leader it's his job to put out his thoughts  to his inner circle for ideas and counter thoughts, he can't do it in a vacuum and blind side Sansa, Davos and Brienne have been around people who did this, Sansa hasn't this is her learning phase on ruling and she needs to catch up on Northern politics as Jon needs to on Southern politics.

[Oscirus]

2 minutes ago, Francie said:

Yes, and as I said, how wonderfully convenient that is for this gimmick of a scene to work. I’m absolutely agreeing that’s the way Dan/David/Bryan wrote it.  It was a cheap, convenient way to tell the story they wanted in that scene, which was only "isn't Arya bad ass?"!

Before this, we’ve had stories about people who were forced to play a role in violence they didn’t want.  The master who Dany hanged, whose son later relayed that her father objected and was outvoted.  Did he deserve Dany’s justice? That was a question GoT asked.

 In the scene where Robb had the “I was only the look out!” Karstark executed had at least something to say about violence.  It’s no excuse to participate and help the conspiracy along, just because you didn't get your hands dirty.

In the books, Merritt Frey particpated in the wedding somewhat reluctantly. His role was to get one of the Northern lords drunk. If he had been included in this Arya banquet scene, do you think he would have been hooting and hollering.  I think he would have groaned and bent his head down.  Don’t misunderstand, I don’t think he’s filled with remorse. But I didn’t see a guy who would have gone, “Yeah! Woop! Woop!” about his role in killing Robb, Catelyn, and Talisa/Jeyne.  

Here, however, the writers here made it so damn easy. All Frey men were involved in the plot. All Frey men took great pleasure in their part. And thus they all deserve to die! There wasn't a three-dimensional thing about that scene. Great acting by the actor playing Arya playing him. But, other than that, it was a third-rate action movie revenge scene. 

It felt like the scene was literally letting Arya off the hook by yelling that all the men involved were red wedding participants and look they all got what they deserved. It would have been much more poignant if in her haste to get revenge, she saw that she killed innocent people, her reactions to such a thing wouldve been interesting.

[Constantinople]

21 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Nope, probably not.  But that still doesn't mean that it's up to Arya to dispense justice.  Now who is going to seek revenge on her and call it justice?  Long, downward spiral, but I guess that's what makes the show.

 

ETA:  And don't get me wrong, it's not that I ever thought that anyone would enforce the laws and punish Frey accordingly.  It's just that I still don't think it's up to Arya to do it, and what she did is still murder and makes her no better than him.  Again, that spiral...

Under that standard you advocate people who commit horrible crimes would never be punished.

Moreover, what Arya and Frey did are not equivalent, at least if Bran's story about violating guest right being the worst possible sin is true

[Oscirus]

2 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

He may be in the right, just as Sansa is ( and she did not advocate their death ) as a leader it's his job to put out his thoughts  to his inner circle for ideas and counter thoughts, he can't do it in a vacuum and blind side Sansa, Davos and Brienne have been around people who did this, Sansa hasn't this is her learning phase on ruling and she needs to catch up on Northern politics as Jon needs to on Southern politics.

As a leader, it's his job to make the decisions regardless,  If she doesn't like the way he's leading, pull him to the side afterwards. Don't put Jon in an unwinnable situation by arguing with him. If he agreed with her and changed his mind, he looks weak, if he doesn't, he's being too rigid and according to his own council, he's rewarding traitors. 

[GrailKing]

12 hours ago, egnever said:

Sansa represents the squabbling of the Southern houses that people have, for years, said is ultimately petty and meaningless against the threat that the White Walkers pose. Jon finally recognizes this and people are criticizing him for not listening enough to someone who still wants to divide their already meager defenders into us vs them.

No, Sansa represents the person who saw what fighting over a chair has done, what she is trying to do is keep Jon safe, her house safe and keep LF and Cersei at bay.

She does this by keeping in mind what happened to Jon,herself and her family, she is thinking on two or three fronts, WW ( she knows Jon's got that ), LF ( Jon's understands that also), but he is being dismissive of Cersei, yet we know he's going south, so Cersei can send assassins north or wait until he goes south, he can't dismiss her due to weather or anything else.

[proserpina65]

15 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Ian Whyte is credited as Wun Wun on IMDb but they must be wrong.  Jon would have had the good sense to burn all the bodies (including Wun Wun) after the Battle of the Bastards.  Ian must be playing one of the three giant wights (or more likely -- all three.)

While we're on the subject . . . giant wights.   Shit.

And on a related topic, if the show us a re-animiated Summer (Bran's wolf) I'm going to be REALLY upset.

Or Hodor, that would kill me.

[GrailKing]

4 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

As a leader, it's his job to make the decisions regardless,  If she doesn't like the way he's leading, pull him to the side afterwards. Don't put Jon in an unwinnable situation by arguing with him. If he agreed with her and changed his mind, he looks weak, if he doesn't, he's being too rigid and according to his own council, he's rewarding traitors. 

More reason to talk before they meet the lords, I did say in prior post she should of talked to him in private ( her mistake )Jon's was not putting it out for other options before calling the houses together.

[FnkyChkn34]

5 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Under that standard you advocate people who commit horrible crimes would never be punished.

I don't understand what you mean?  I'm not really advocating for anything.  I'm acknowledging that while Westeros does have laws, it's in turmoil right now and the kings/queens in charge are fighting a war rather than punishing people for crimes.  

And just to be clear, I don't entirely dislike what Arya did, because I liked Robb.  But, she's now a mass murderer.  She has no authority to dispense justice, so all she did was a revenge killing.  She's no better than who she killed, and shouldn't be hailed as some hero, in my opinion.

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, Francie said:

That only works if you believe that donning the mask somehow transforms her into a 6 foot tall, frail man.  That's where it loses me.

Every time the waif, Arya, or Jaqen took off a mask previously, we watched them take off the mask, but their bodies didn't transform.  We wouldn't see it transform on screen, at least.

That's how they portray the moment of transformation, sure, but in every other possible respect, they portray the illusion as being comprehensive and exact. Arya as Walder Frey was just David Bradley with his standard makeup and accent. Even when they cast the Kindly Man, who had no other purpose than to be a temporary false persona for Jaqen, they hired someone as physically different from Tom Wlaschiha as possible, and made no effort to conceal the fact that he had the body of an old, stocky black man.

In the end, though, it comes back to this for me: since the way the faces work requires us to believe that you can cut off just the front part of someone's face, put that dead skin on your face, and immediately assume the exact facial appearance, voice, and hair of the living person they'd once been, it requires no more suspension of disbelief to accept that it allows you to assume their exact bodily appearance as well. So I've got no problem with the idea that Arya could walk around the Twins wearing Walder's face and convince everyone else she was him.

[proserpina65]

15 hours ago, anamika said:

But he did not know, she was planning on disagreeing with him in public. If she was planning to do so, she should approach him and discuss before hand. Simple as that. Undermining the leader in front of his people is not the done thing. As was seen from the reaction in the room. Either she was deliberately doing it or she was showing her ignorance of how ruling is done once again.

Maybe they could both talk to each other ahead of time.

[MaggieG]

I was eating a piece of chocolate during the bed pan scenes. Not recommended.

[screamin]

Just now, Dev F said:

That's how they portray the moment of transformation, sure, but in every other possible respect, they portray the illusion as being comprehensive and exact. Arya as Walder Frey was just David Bradley with his standard makeup and accent. Even when they cast the Kindly Man, who had no other purpose than to be a temporary false persona for Jaqen, they hired someone as physically different from Tom Wlaschiha as possible, and made no effort to conceal the fact that he had the body of an old, stocky black man.

In the end, though, it comes back to this for me: since the way the faces work requires us to believe that you can cut off just the front part of someone's face, put that dead skin on your face, and immediately assume the exact facial appearance, voice, and hair of the living person they'd once been, it requires no more suspension of disbelief to accept that it allows you to assume their exact bodily appearance as well. So I've got no problem with the idea that Arya could walk around the Twins wearing Walder's face and convince everyone else she was him.

Also the hands. We saw Frey's hands, too
 

Thinking it over, I tend to agree with the person who said that the prize Euron intends to offer to Cersei is a hijacked dragon.

But thinking it over - does Euron really want Cersei? Yes, she still looks good, but under medieval standards she's probably nearly past childbearing age, aside from all her other obvious drawbacks. (plus she shows no interest in establishing another dynasty, either with Euron or her twin). Is Euron's aim to get control of a dragon, try to use it to leverage Dany into marrying him, and only failing that try Cersei as a backup?

[Tikichick]

Probably easier to abscond with Tyrion than hijack one of those dragons at this point.    However, Tyrion has built up some good will with the dragons at this point, and he will be known to them as a friend of their mother's.  Hilarious to see one of Tyrion's friends come a-calling just as Cersei thinks she can finally exact revenge on her little brother!

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, doram said:

Or a Baratheon or a Greyjoy or an Umber. 

Sansa wasn't offering to ward the deposed Karstark in Winterfell. Technically, she wasn't offering to make the new Lord ward the Karstark either but for argument's sake. How exactly did she intend to guarantee their well being? Or does she imagine that every red-headed girl with Stark blood has a Littlefinger-esque figure to play Pervert Fairy Godfather?

As has been said, lack of communication by both Jon and Sansa caused this problem, it was an option that could have been put forward if Jon called a meeting before he called the rest of the North.

And as far as a thought about that red headed girl could she be a future plot device, could it be something dire?

[MarySNJ]

1 hour ago, quazimodo said:

Because Sansa can do no right which is why every minor infraction she makes is debated to death even whilst Arya is killing her way through Westeros.

My 2 cents:  I think Jon made the right decision but he and Sansa both have complex POVs based on a variety of experiences. That doesn't make Sansa all wrong and Jon all right, because either strategy could backfire. However, Sansa's reactions are based on her experiences in the Lannister/"Baratheon" court and she's suffering from PTSD and understandably paranoid.  She is right that Cersei is a threat, but looking at the big picture, she's a small threat compared to the army of the dead. That's Jon's point. The thing I see is Jon trying to shore up alliances among all of the Northern Lords and Ladies by practicing some pragmatic mercy for the Karstark and Unger children, whereas Cersei's scorched Earth approach has cost the regime allies at least at the moment. 

In regard to Arya: The story of the rat cook is about 2 things: justifiable vengeance and non-justifiable violation of guest right.  Assuming Arya was not a "guest" under the Frey's roof she was exercising justifiable vengeance (under Westerosi standards, not ours) for the murders of her family. In addition, under the morals and values of the North, she was righting a vile sin by killing the men who slaughtered their guests. I wouldn't be happy to see Arya randomly slaughtering people who are innocent of crimes. But she apparently knows that all those men participated in the slaughter at the Red Wedding. I'm not saying I agree with Westerosi opinions on vengeance but I don't think Arya has become a blood-thirsty serial killer without a purpose.

[GrailKing]

13 hours ago, anamika said:

So I am still confused about the Vale. Royce seems to be there just for disagreeing with Jon about everything - he seems to be doing it next week as well.   Sansa seemed to hint that the Vale army was LF's men and that's why they need LF. So the Vale does LF's bidding? So the Vale is not under the KITN?

Southern ruling processing thoughts, prejudiced against Wildlings ; LF is Lord Paramount and Protector of the Vale and is Robyn's guardian.

No, they are just in an alliance they can be sent home on LF whims, this is why I wished they put Sansa's Vale arc in, she's running a great house and she has young Robyn's trust not LF. 

[screamin]

47 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

As a leader, it's his job to make the decisions regardless,  If she doesn't like the way he's leading, pull him to the side afterwards. Don't put Jon in an unwinnable situation by arguing with him. If he agreed with her and changed his mind, he looks weak, if he doesn't, he's being too rigid and according to his own council, he's rewarding traitors. 

Jon's lords are allowed to disagree with him in Jon's free-for-all meetings (as when they argued and protested Jon's decision to order girls to start military training at age 10.) Why should Sansa be forbidden to do this when his lords are allowed to? Jon needs her support as much as he needs his lords' support. If the justification for demanding she not disagree with him in public when the other lords are allowed to is that as a family they must present a united front in public, then Jon should as a family discuss his decisions with her in private and get her views on them, and tell her what his decisions are likely to be, whether or not he ultimately disagrees with her.

But if Jon insists on making all his decisions immediately in public during public discussion, then telling her and only her to shut up if she disagrees with him while allowing all his lords to disagree in public, cuts off her input into his decision-making. If he allows only his lords to disagree with him, makes his decision in public without her input, and only afterwards hears her objections and realizes that actually she has a pretty good point that none of his lords brought up, it's too late to incorporate her input into his decision-making. His decision was already made publically, and going back on it will make him look indecisive and vacillating. It also, incidentally, disrespects Sansa by refusing her a privilege he grants to all his lords, even though he needs her support as much as he does the lords'.

The way I see it, Jon has the choice of either taking a little longer to go over his more important decisions, taking both public and private input before announcing them (which I think is actually a pretty good idea) and allow Sansa private input into his decisions if he forbids her public ones; or treat Sansa as one of his lords, affording her the priviledge of disagreeing as he does to any of his lords, and ultimately making the final decision  himself. I think either option is better than just cutting Sansa off from any opportunity to effectively voice disagreement that may turn out to be important.

Edited July 17, 2017 by screamin

[FnkyChkn34]

22 minutes ago, MaggieG said:

I was eating a piece of chocolate during the bed pan scenes. Not recommended.

Me too!  Peanut butter chocolate...

[SimoneS]

40 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I don't understand what you mean?  I'm not really advocating for anything.  I'm acknowledging that while Westeros does have laws, it's in turmoil right now and the kings/queens in charge are fighting a war rather than punishing people for crimes.  

And just to be clear, I don't entirely dislike what Arya did, because I liked Robb.  But, she's now a mass murderer.  She has no authority to dispense justice, so all she did was a revenge killing.  She's no better than who she killed, and shouldn't be hailed as some hero, in my opinion.

Westeros simply does not have a judicial system that pursues traditional justice as we know it. The only justice that you get is what you have the power to get for yourself. This is also a situation where there is no clear distinction between justice and revenge as we define them. 

I don't agree that Arya killing the Freys makes her no better than them. No doubt she is a mass killer who got her revenge. However, she used her power to punish a powerful family that has betrayed and murdered countless others. She doesn't go around betraying and murdering people en masse to gain power or wealth. This is a show where often the crimes of the victims define them.

Edited July 17, 2017 by SimoneS

[stillshimpy]

37 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

And just to be clear, I don't entirely dislike what Arya did, because I liked Robb.  But, she's now a mass murderer.  She has no authority to dispense justice, so all she did was a revenge killing.  She's no better than who she killed, and shouldn't be hailed as some hero, in my opinion.

They murdered a King under false pretenses, they were all guilty of treason from Arya's standpoint and she's the daughter of the (equally murdered) Warden of the North.  

 

There's ground between hailing someone as a hero and finding their actions justifiable.  It's a war torn land.  The least trustworthy family in that land murdered her family, but also a King.   The damned land is practically littered with murdered Kings, as it happens, so the authorities are being a bit lax in their duties as it is.   

Anyone who would show up to the "Let's all celebrate under the Frey's roof" rather than send their regrets was pretty much okay with that action.   It doesn't make what Arya did right in any classic sense of the word, but it is actually justifiable if also terribly sad evidence that she's a little too committed to vengeance.   She then got to see a Lannister soldier hope his baby was girl because son's grow up "to fight other men's wars" she clearly took note.    

Arya murdered all the seed of the family that pretty much caused her psychotic break in the first place.   Then on the road to try and get some more (justifiable) homicide behind her, she ran into a timely reminder that not everyone was like the soldiers she personally saw singing, laughing and drinking as they pushed forth the defiled corpse of her brother with the head of an animal they murdered in an equally cowardly act.  

Also, huge props to the actor who played Walder Frey.  What a delight his Arya-as-Walder turn was because of course he played Walder as being ever-so-slightly-not-Walder and with a slightly higher (but not distractingly so) voice.  Man, actors who have the chops are such a source of delight.  

Circling back for a second:  Arya is an incredibly traumatized child, who had a psychotic break, the only friends she found in that terrifying world taught her how to assassinate because they are the Faceless Men:  the only source of justice for those who have none left to them. 

She might not have the authority of the crown but something has given her that power, so I submit that she may even have divine authority, in this tale.   As well as a rather swift reminder to keep in mind, that someone's little girl would be at home, learning how her father was poisoned for his crimes, and to that little girl, she'll just have lost her dad.   

So, I found there was kind of a good attempt at narrative balance and that the story did go out of its way to rather swiftly have her wondering who she had murdered who might just have been there, fighting another man's war.  

Edited July 17, 2017 by stillshimpy

[GrailKing]

12 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

She ain't wrong about Robb though. We all want Sansa to get on the same page with Jon, because frankly, some people are never going to forget her taking Joffrey's side over Arya way back in season 1 and are willing to believe even after everything she's been through that she's going to sell Jon out.

She took no side in show, in book she backed up Arya to her father, Joffery and Arya put her in a no win situation, that's why in show Ned explained Sansa's situation to Arya.

[FemmyV]

10 hours ago, Cherpumple said:

 

I'm fascinated by this dichotomy in the book fandom as well. Arya is praised as a "badass" for killing multiple people without a second thought, and yet I still read opinions saying that Sansa is one of the most evil people in Westeros for telling Cersei that Ned wanted to take her and Arya out of King's Landing. Get a grip, she was a naive 12-year old who barely had any facts about the situation. It was hardly a malicious act, and realistically, how far would Ned's entourage had gotten anyway before Cersei sent soldiers to track them down? Anyway, Arya just generally seems to have more fans than Sansa, so that might be a partial answer to your question. Personally, I'm more than a little horrified at how easily she can decide to kill people, but I guess in Westeros it's not that unusual. However, I definitely cheered Arya's revenge on the Freys because we knew exactly who they were and what they had done. And it helped that they were all cheering on the memory of the Red Wedding right before drinking the poison. These were unambiguously "bad guys" (I don't think we were ever shown a sympathetic Frey). In Sansa's case, the offending bannermen had been killed in battle, so any punishment meted out would not affect them, only their innocent children. It's a different situation and requires more long-term planning and strategy (maintaining northern defenses), so a different tack should be used.

You've pretty much answered your own question, right there. Arya was cheered because she applied a revenge that was based on justice, with the added bonus of reducing Cersei's allies. Sansa was jeered because the revenge she wanted to apply was unjust and it could have come back to bite them in the ass, with the added bonus of successfully undermining her King, if he'd had been swayed. As it is, she demonstrated a division to be exploited.