S03.E09: Fall

[Gobi]

34 minutes ago, ilovetrashtv said:

Does anyone remember where Jimmy is living right now? In the nail salon or what? 

I thought he was living in Kim's apartment.

[Ottis]

18 hours ago, rue721 said:

In a practical sense, Jimmy's money problems are really not that bad right now. He's got that music store payout to pay the rent, he's crashing with Kim and I doubt has very high living expenses, etc. He's so desperate for this money for emotional reasons at least as much as practical ones IMO. It probably represents security, power, and success to him -- like most people. He won't be an anxious, powerless scumbag that everyone looks their noses down on once he has money. Etc.

But he AND Kim's finances may be bad. Kim clearly sees a need to take on more work to get them through Jimmy's ban. And that is driving her actions, and consequences.

18 hours ago, rue721 said:

But what bothers me is how cold and predatory he was with Irene. He set her up to get hurt, and when he SAW -- literally saw with his own two eyes -- her get hurt, he went in for the kill without a second thought, what with his "listen to your heart." Oh no, of course he wasn't going to TELL her what to do about the settlement, that could cost him his share. He was just going to get her friends to bully her for him.

From Jimmy's POV, the moment he saw Irene get hurt was the *good part* for Irene. because that meant Jimmy could bring the whole con to a close, help Irene get her money before she dies and get her back with her friends (presumably). No reason to hesitate at that point, not for her, and not for him.

 

18 hours ago, rue721 said:

It's easy to write Howard off as a lightweight, but he's managed to do something that Jimmy, Chuck, and Nacho haven't -- take over the family business and actually be a reasonably good steward of it.

Howard actually seems pretty competent to me. Both for the reason you cite, and the way he has handled Chuck through his "illness."

18 hours ago, rue721 said:

Does he not actually understand that Irene isn't going to be able to buy her way out of her unhappiness with her settlement money, and that he isn't going to be able to buy happiness with his share, either? Maybe not, based on how he was celebrating with that tequila.

Slipping Jimmy is all about the scam, and only partly because of the results. He *likes* manipulating the system. Whether he is happy afterward is secondary to pulling it off. Sometimes justice intersects with his cons, but that's more incidental than part of the plan.. Chuck was right about Jimmy in this sense ... this is who he is.

18 hours ago, PhilMarlowe2 said:

I would go a step further to say that, in my mind, Hamlin is no different than Jimmy - he can stand on a his high horse all he wants, but at the end of the day, Hamlin is holding out for his own benefit, and does that make him much better than Jimmy? Where is his tin cup? I was hoping Jimmy would point

Not necessarily. Hamlin could sincerely believe that, based on the law and their own experience, the seniors deserve more, and that they will get more, if they hold out. The fact that Hamlin may not be considering the seniors' ages in that equation is a side note to the "big law firms don't care about people" trope. 

Ultimately, no one has paid a huge price YET for Jimmy's machinations, Chuck's ego, their court battle, Howard's strategy to get Chuck out, etc. I suspect that's the cost we will see later in the series, and I really, really hope Kim is OK.

[Bryce Lynch]

11 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I disagree about Howard and Chuck.  Howard and the firm have bent over backwards to keep Chuck in practice and to protect him from the real world consequences of his psychiatric problem.  Now part of that was not altruistic but because of harm to the firm, but still, they have done it.  But then CHuck went and was made to look foolish in front of several lawyers and now their is no hiding it.  The damage to the firm is almost irreparable.  The insurance carrier now knows the truth and can't be hidden from.  Howards suggestion is really best for everyone involved.  ANd he is right, while CHuck is "better", he is not "normal".  I loved the shot as well in his home where he stated 'you have the lights on!", then they show on small lamp in the other room. No CHuck, still not normal.  How is everyone going to react in court when you start naming things off you see in the middle of a case? 

 

Howard is trying to do what is best for the firm.  Chuck is trying to do what is best for him, as he always does. 

IMO, Howard should have done more to help the firm all along, by, for one thing, insisting Chuck get help.  Chuck isn't "normal" yet, but he is a lot closer to normal then when Howard enabled him and covered up his condition for the clients for years.  He also should have fought much harder to keep Chuck from testifying at Jimmy's hearing.  That was such an obvious risk to Chuck's reputation and too the firm's that, at the time, I suspected Howard was trying to set him up by not trying harder to stop him. 

I'm not so sure how valid the insurance carrier's case is.  Chuck ,who every lawyer on the show acknowledges know the law better than all of them, was extremely confident that the law was on their side and me.  He said that he could think of a "dozen infractions" they were committing, off the top of his head.  I also don't know how serious a risk of liability Chuck's condition is.  He never actually botched any cases, though because of Jimmy's deceit and Kim helping him put his taped confession into question, the insurance company has that incorrect impression.  

Even if they couldn't win with insurance company, they could probably find another carrier for a lot less the than doubled rates (Jimmy hasn't gone to every insurer to rat on Chuck).  Even if they ended up paying doubled rates for a while, HHM would survive.  By trying to force Chuck out, Howard is creating a situation that could end the firm.

I think the main concern for the firm would be client confidence, not malpractice insurance.  That crisis is largely Howard's fault as well.  If he had been honest with them and let them know Chuck was having some health issues, but they were not affecting the day to day operations of the firm, and HHM continued to do great work for them, few if any clients would leave.  But, I would imagine the cover up has made many clients wonder if they can trust HHM any more.  

Also, if Howard wants Chuck out, I can understand that.  By why on earth would he think he could force him to "retire" while withholding his share of the business he built from the ground up?  It seems like Howard wants to have his cake and eat it too.  

[Bryce Lynch]

3 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Jimmy has truly been evolving into "Saul" this season, and in this episode? He's there. Saul Goodman has officially arrived, folks, and there's no going back. 

Here's the thing: Jimmy has done some questionable, even awful things since the beginning of the show, but they were rooted mostly in a desire to help others, and he usually inflicted the most damage on those who really had it coming. In his own warped way, he had a certain code of honor and ethics. Here? He wanted the money, needed the money, so instead of sitting Irene down and giving her sound, practical advice (which, by the way, he could have given as her friend, not as her lawyer), he pulls the cruelest, most emotionally manipulative con I've seen him pull, and against someone who didn't deserve it in the slightest.

Was Irene being foolish and impractical about not settling right away? Sure she was; after all, she and her pals are far from spring chickens, and they only have so much time before the Grim Reaper comes to call, so settle and enjoy the money while you still have time. But Jimmy should have simply told her that (or gotten someone else to tell her that), rather than play the evil puppet master and inflict psychological torture on a poor old woman who probably has very few close friends or family in her life. Only villains in Hitchcock films do that sort of thing, and Jimmy had very few, if any, qualms about doing so. Well, they have money now, but there's no guarantee Irene's friends have "forgiven" her and taken her back in the fold, which means the settlement will be cold comfort indeed. Nice one, Saul. Hope the cash is worth it, dickhead.

Y'know? There is something seriously wrong with the McGill character gene on the men's side: Dad was a gullible, short-sighted chump, Chuck's a pompous moral hypocrite, and Jimmy is a con artist and blossoming sociopath. 

God, I feel so awful for Kim. I know I'm stupidly stating the obvious, but that car accident is definitely an omen... and I'm not just talking about the ramifications with her new client. More terrible things are waiting for Kim, I just know it.

I agree that what Jimmy did to Irene was pretty much Full Saul Goodman.  What he did was horrible, mean spirited and for his own selfish gain.  

 I'm not even sure Irene was being foolish or impractical.  She probably should have been a little more proactive in getting more information about the case and passing it on the the other geezers, but she is not a lawyer and there is no particular reason to believe the D&M is not acting in the best interest of the plaintiffs.  If D&M thinks they can get significantly more, they probably can.  Why would they want to have their partners and associates put months or years of unbilled time into it, if they didn't think their share would be much bigger down the road?  Now, there might be a potential conflict of interest on the timing, but there is no evidence D&M is screwing the clients.

I don't trust Saul one bit when he claims taking the settlement now would be in the best interests of the clients.  He has not been involved in the case for several months ,so he has no idea how it is going. More importantly he wants his money now and he clearly doesn't care about anything else.  

I have no idea what will happen to Kim.  I hope she gets away from Saul and out of ABQ.  Unfortunately, I think the accident might bring them closer together, as he cares for her and she feels more helpless and vulnerable because of her injuries.  Also, Saul telling her that she needed to slow down and enjoy life is going to ring true.   

[DrSpaceman73]

7 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

IMO, Howard should have done more to help the firm all along, by, for one thing, insisting Chuck get help.  Chuck isn't "normal" yet, but he is a lot closer to normal then when Howard enabled him and covered up his condition for the clients for years.  He also should have fought much harder to keep Chuck from testifying at Jimmy's hearing.  That was such an obvious risk to Chuck's reputation and too the firm's that, at the time, I suspected Howard was trying to set him up by not trying harder to stop him. 

I'm not so sure how valid the insurance carrier's case is.  Chuck ,who every lawyer on the show acknowledges know the law better than all of them, was extremely confident that the law was on their side and me.  He said that he could think of a "dozen infractions" they were committing, off the top of his head.  I also don't know how serious a risk of liability Chuck's condition is.  He never actually botched any cases, though because of Jimmy's deceit and Kim helping him put his taped confession into question, the insurance company has that incorrect impression.  

Even if they couldn't win with insurance company, they could probably find another carrier for a lot less the than doubled rates (Jimmy hasn't gone to every insurer to rat on Chuck).  Even if they ended up paying doubled rates for a while, HHM would survive.  By trying to force Chuck out, Howard is creating a situation that could end the firm.

I think the main concern for the firm would be client confidence, not malpractice insurance.  That crisis is largely Howard's fault as well.  If he had been honest with them and let them know Chuck was having some health issues, but they were not affecting the day to day operations of the firm, and HHM continued to do great work for them, few if any clients would leave.  But, I would imagine the cover up has made many clients wonder if they can trust HHM any more.  

Also, if Howard wants Chuck out, I can understand that.  By why on earth would he think he could force him to "retire" while withholding his share of the business he built from the ground up?  It seems like Howard wants to have his cake and eat it too.  

we have no idea what happened in the intervening three years (which is an interesting time frame, to me at least, I thought it was  likely longer than that) between now and when CHuck started having his problem, so much of this is just speculation on your part as far as what Howard did or did not do in the past, how the firm responded at first to his condition and how they arrived at the place they are now.

I would take a different view based on what we know of the situation and suppose this :  The firm likely encouraged Chuck to take a leave of absence or time off or some different route that where they ended up when this first happened and, likely, as he is doing now, Chuck threatened to sue them based on his "disability" unless he caved to his demands and his routine.  Now that is just as much speculation as your interpretation, but would not surprise me one bit if that is how they arrived at this place. 

And also based on HIPAA laws, Howard is very limited on what he could tell clients about CHuck and his medical condition. 

Knowing Howard, I just doubt very seriously he did not try hard to avoid ending up in the situation we see at the beginning of the series, with a partner in the firm working out of his house without electricity.  He is a practical man if nothing else.  I can't see him just going along with this plan from Chuck without some pressure from Chuck. 

As for the malpractice carrier, I am sure they are just as well versed in insurance law as CHuck, since its their business.  He may think they are committing "violations", but that doesn't mean its true.  And when you start to threaten to sue insurance carriers, I also doubt very seriously some other carrier is just going to be willing to come along and kindly give you a great rate compared to who you have.  And in this type of malpractice there is likely also not many options in the state on who you can use.

As for the retirement and buy out for Chuck's portion of the firm, I don't think Howard intended not to pay him for his share of the company.  He likely just figured they could come to some sort of amiable buy out process over time rather than a lump sum $8 million one time payment. 

My general impression is, Chuck is a bully and threatens people when he does not get his way, as we have seen multiple times in this show.  That is why he is not liked.  Its not just that Jimmy is more likeable and personable and gets along better with others via his personality.  Its Chuck wants everything his way, there is no talking him out of things when he thinks he is right and he hides behind the law to justify his coercive and manipulating personality. 

[teebax]

That last scene gave me flashbacks. I had a car just like Kim's, and four days after I got it a deer jumped right in front of me. Everything stopped, and I must have blacked out for a millisecond.  The next thing I remember is the airbags deploying. The dust from them made it look like my car was on fire. 

According to witnesses, I flipped three full rotations.  My only injury was a cut from a flying compact disc. 

As for the episode, I'm loving getting back stories of these BB characters. It was nice to see a fairly normal Lydia.

[Tosia]

Jimmy FLOVES the game of manipulation. Fuck the other players or "game pieces" like Irene. He's unemployed and has beaucoup time to plan and carry out the steps of the game,  even though the end is to get the $ asap. 

Chuck FLOVES himself.  His status, his knowledge of the law,  his elitism, etc. are well- deserved and appropriate  in his arrogant world view. 

[Lion18]

22 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I was flipping back and forth between BCS and the NBA Finals, so I need to watch again, but a few thoughts.

1) Jimmy was despicable for turning all the old ladies against Irene.  Scamming jerks in bars, his brother, etc. is one thing, but being so mean to Irene was over the line. 

2) I liked Chuck in fighting mode.  Howard deserves whatever Chuck does to him for trying to push him out now.  If he had done it earlier, before he made such progress,  I could have understood it more.  Chuck is officially the more likable (or less detestable) McGill brother in my book...at least for now.  

3) Kim's crash was just like the foreshadowing when the cell phone alarm suddenly woke her up after seemingly almost no time had passed.  I loved the way they didn't show her dozing off, just the aftermath.  

4) I loved the Madrigal scene. As soon as I saw the guy zipping down the hall on the segway I thought "Madrigal?"

5) It seem like Hector might have gotten himself clipped by the cartel before long even if Nacho hadn't switched his pills.  You don't disrespect a man like Don Eladio.  

6) I am wondering if Kim's crash, rather than alienating her, might push her back into Jimmy's arms, with bad long term consequences.  

I had the same thought about Kim. Since she crashed, missed her appointment and lost all her papers I felt she will now have to go back to jimmy and might even join him in his scams. 

[ShadowFacts]

27 minutes ago, teebax said:

According to witnesses, I flipped three full rotations.  My only injury was a cut from a flying compact disc. 

Lucky you lived to tell the story!

46 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

we have no idea what happened in the intervening three years (which is an interesting time frame, to me at least, I thought it was  likely longer than that) between now and when CHuck started having his problem, so much of this is just speculation on your part as far as what Howard did or did not do in the past, how the firm responded at first to his condition and how they arrived at the place they are now.

I would take a different view based on what we know of the situation and suppose this :  The firm likely encouraged Chuck to take a leave of absence or time off or some different route that where they ended up when this first happened and, likely, as he is doing now, Chuck threatened to sue them based on his "disability" unless he caved to his demands and his routine.  Now that is just as much speculation as your interpretation, but would not surprise me one bit if that is how they arrived at this place. 

And also based on HIPAA laws, Howard is very limited on what he could tell clients about CHuck and his medical condition. 

Knowing Howard, I just doubt very seriously he did not try hard to avoid ending up in the situation we see at the beginning of the series, with a partner in the firm working out of his house without electricity.  He is a practical man if nothing else.  I can't see him just going along with this plan from Chuck without some pressure from Chuck. 

As for the malpractice carrier, I am sure they are just as well versed in insurance law as CHuck, since its their business.  He may think they are committing "violations", but that doesn't mean its true.  And when you start to threaten to sue insurance carriers, I also doubt very seriously some other carrier is just going to be willing to come along and kindly give you a great rate compared to who you have.  And in this type of malpractice there is likely also not many options in the state on who you can use.

As for the retirement and buy out for Chuck's portion of the firm, I don't think Howard intended not to pay him for his share of the company.  He likely just figured they could come to some sort of amiable buy out process over time rather than a lump sum $8 million one time payment. 

My general impression is, Chuck is a bully and threatens people when he does not get his way, as we have seen multiple times in this show.  That is why he is not liked.  Its not just that Jimmy is more likeable and personable and gets along better with others via his personality.  Its Chuck wants everything his way, there is no talking him out of things when he thinks he is right and he hides behind the law to justify his coercive and manipulating personality. 

I think it was established in the first season that HHM could not afford to buy out Chuck, and thus Howard went along with the 'sabbatical'.  And now the way I see it, HHM is in the same position -- wanting Chuck out of the way, inactive, not harming their reputation or insurance costs.  But not ending the partnership, because they can't take the financial hit.  The partnership agreement would already cover dissolution and payouts over time.  Depending on how the partnership is set up, it could probably be accomplished by a vote of the partners, but not without a cost.  I could be wrong,  but I don't think Howard was handling Chuck the way he was out of the goodness of his heart.  I think he was trying to preserve the status quo as long as he could.

[benteen]

The look on Michael McKean's face with the glowing lamp shining in it was great with how deranged it looked.

[Bryce Lynch]

29 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Lucky you lived to tell the story!

I think it was established in the first season that HHM could not afford to buy out Chuck, and thus Howard went along with the 'sabbatical'.  And now the way I see it, HHM is in the same position -- wanting Chuck out of the way, inactive, not harming their reputation or insurance costs.  But not ending the partnership, because they can't take the financial hit.  The partnership agreement would already cover dissolution and payouts over time.  Depending on how the partnership is set up, it could probably be accomplished by a vote of the partners, but not without a cost.  I could be wrong,  but I don't think Howard was handling Chuck the way he was out of the goodness of his heart.  I think he was trying to preserve the status quo as long as he could.

I think, like many characters on BCS, Howard probably had mixed motives in his handling of Chuck.  He did, to some extent, seem to care about Chuck, but I have no doubt he was also trying to keep him from cashing out and causing devastating financial harm to the firm.  

I think part of the reason Howard has turned so strongly against Chuck is that Chuck's outbursts at the hearing embarrassed him and the firm.  Howard does not like to be embarrassed.  Look at how he reacted towards Kim after she caused him embarrassment by talking him into recommending Jimmy to D&M and not telling him about the TV Ad.  

Edited June 14, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[ShadowFacts]

3 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think part of the reason Howard has turned so strongly against Chuck is that Chuck's outbursts at the hearing embarrassed him and the firm.  Howard does not like to be embarrassed.  Look at how he reacted towards Kim after she caused him embarrassment by talking him into recommending Jimmy to D&M and not telling him about the TV Ad.  

Yes, and he also did not like having to spend breakfast, lunch and dinner for weeks reassuring clients, and probably not being able to tell which ones might still take their business elsewhere.  Chuck is now a tangible drag on the business. 

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, ShadowFacts said:

Yes, and he also did not like having to spend breakfast, lunch and dinner for weeks reassuring clients, and probably not being able to tell which ones might still take their business elsewhere.  Chuck is now a tangible drag on the business. 

The Chuck situation is surely hurting business.  But, I think if Howard had been more upfront with the clients, the damage would have been far, less severe.  Most of them probably never had Chuck do any work directly for them or at least hadn't for years.  I think the real issue is trust.  If HHM hid this from them, what else might they hide and can the firm be trusted?

[DrSpaceman73]

2 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Lucky you lived to tell the story!

I think it was established in the first season that HHM could not afford to buy out Chuck, and thus Howard went along with the 'sabbatical'.  And now the way I see it, HHM is in the same position -- wanting Chuck out of the way, inactive, not harming their reputation or insurance costs.  But not ending the partnership, because they can't take the financial hit.  The partnership agreement would already cover dissolution and payouts over time.  Depending on how the partnership is set up, it could probably be accomplished by a vote of the partners, but not without a cost.  I could be wrong,  but I don't think Howard was handling Chuck the way he was out of the goodness of his heart.  I think he was trying to preserve the status quo as long as he could.

Oh I don't think Howard was just doing Chuck any favors or just being kind in the situation either.   It was not just altruism on his part.  He certainly had much to gain from how things were arranged. I think they both found a happy medium they could live with for 3 years that they both realized was not ideal but allowed the firm to continue with as minimal disruption as possible.

After what happened in Jimmy's hearing though, I think Howard realized that arrangement was no longer feasible or working and something different had to be come up with.  He through out some suggestions and tried to hint at this to Chuck as gently as possible and Chuck just got pissed and would hear nothing of it.  I am sure Howard would have been open to some other arrangements or ideas if CHuck had any between retirement and the current situation, but Chuck is just determined to not let it happen. 

I am sure there is some buy out arrangement in the partnership contract, but if need be and both parties are agreeable, those can be changed to give the firm some flexibility on the $8 million. 

[MisterBluxom]

8 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Jimmy didn't get just Irene's friends to turn against her. When she hit Bingo the entire room went silent.  Irene put up with a lot of shunning before she finally cracked. 

This may turn out better for Irene. Before this she was just another Sandpiper resident. Pretty soon she will be the person who got everyone else thousands of dollars. 

My guess is that Jimmy felt he had to handle things that way because he was not allowed to practice law for a fixed period. Therefor he could not advise Irene to settle and he had to arrange events so that she would demand to settle immediately.

I don't see Jimmy as being cruel to Irene. The way he orgnized these events, she should be able to repair her relationships with her friends by explaining things and then arranging for them to get their money almost immediately.

When she explains to her friends that she now knows she can arrange for the suit to be settled almost immediately and when all her friends get their money right quick, they should be willing to forgive her and they should then be very happy.

As I understand the situation, Howard wants to delay for a long time and that would result in the ladies getting a little more money while Howard would get a lot more money. By settling immediately, the ladies will get almost the maximum money they could get by delaying. But they will get their money real quick and if things are explained to them, they should be happy and they should forgive Irene for not understanding. If they won't, I'm guessing Jimmy will help them see the light and all the ladies will be friends again.

My guess is that this is a rather small problem for Irene if it is explained properly to her friends and I cannot believe that Jimmy would leave Irene in such a way that her former friends all hate her now. I'm fairly sure that he would ensure Irene's situation is repaired. I can't know that for sure. But it seems to me that he's arranged things in such a way that it won't be difficult to put things back the way they were with respect to Irene's relationship with her friends.

I don't believe we've ever seen Jimmy arrange to cause great harm to someone who did not deserve any harm - like Irene. Yes, he takes shortcuts at times. But I can't recall any time where he behaved like a real bastard. I can't recall where he arranged a situation such that someone would be left suffering a great harm when they did not deserve it.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. But it seems to me the only time Jimmy has caused serious harm to others was when they truly deserved it - when they had first caused a comparable amount of harm to others.

[DrSpaceman73]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The Chuck situation is surely hurting business.  But, I think if Howard had been more upfront with the clients, the damage would have been far, less severe.  Most of them probably never had Chuck do any work directly for them or at least hadn't for years.  I think the real issue is trust.  If HHM hid this from them, what else might they hide and can the firm be trusted?

I doubt very seriously if Howard had told them the true situation with CHuck upfront that any of them would have been very understanding about it and not considered changing their business elsewhere.  They hid the situation for good reason :  if it got out the true condition of him at any time, whether at the beginning or now, it was going to hurt business. 

If I owned a business I sure as hell wouldn't want much to do with a law firm with a partner this is psychiatrically ill and still trying to practice, which is what Chuck was doing.  Yes we know as viewers that legally he was still fine and sharp, but there is no way a client would know that or likely believe that

[Hanahope]

The last time we saw the Sandpiper class action, they were still in the process of signing up clients.  That was what, just a few months ago in BCS time?  Maybe 6 months since Jimmy left D&M?  Class actions do move a bit slower than most lawsuits, since there's so many people.  There could be discovery to answer, depositions to take, etc.  Yes, the defendant gave a settlement offer.  Many times defendants do, hoping to settle the case quick before spending money in discovery.  Almost certainly D&M could get a higher settlement offer further down the road.    It isn't necessarily because the lawfirm could get more money as well, although that is probably true too.  Also, a court/judge does have to approve the settlement in a class action, so just because Irene tells Jimmy that she's going to tell D&M she wants to settle, that doesn't mean that it is going to settle for sure.  Jimmy is again jumping the gun a bit.

BTW, of the settlement, D&M will get a fairly decent chunk, being the attorneys doing the majority of the work (sometimes this is a 1/3 contingency fee, sometimes it is a per hour fee, it depends on the agreement and the claim - some lawsuit claims can include a request for attorneys fees as damages - and yes if the arrangement is payment by the hour, then the more work D&M does, the larger their share will be).  Jimmy also gets a decent chunk, since he's the initial handling/referring attorney.  HHM will get a smaller piece, being an intermediary/referring counsel.  Also, lawsuit settlement damages/recovery are not taxed as income, except in some very limited circumstances, which I don't believe apply here.  Obviously once the settlement is completed and the money distributed, that would become part of any plaintiff's estate, which could be subject to estate taxes (without proper estate planning).

I don't see why HHM couldn't assign a partner to work with Chuck, especially since, so far, Chuck isn't actually working on any cases (not since MV and Sandpiper).  And even when Chuck worked on MV, Howard was at the hearing too, so what's the problem with just having another different partner attend hearings as necessary.

If Chuck were reasonable, HHM wouldn't have to completely buy him out or not pay him anything.  Many attorneys when they become emeritus at firms continue to receive some income from the firm.  A firm typically only has to 'buy out' the partner if the partner intends to take his name with him when he goes because he still wants to actively practice law.

Obviously Chuck is not going to be reasonable.  It just might behoove Howard to dissolve HHM, and reopen a new firm, Hamlin and X (whoever he can get to pony up extra money to be a 'named' partner) and then rehire everyone from before.

BTW, Jimmy cannot do any legal work while his license is suspended.  He can't be a clerk, or a paralegal or anything else actually related to the law.  Even his being at the law office is taking a major risk. That's why he's trying to be very careful in speaking with Irene, not giving any "legal" advice.  He really could get into a lot of trouble if Irene tells D&M that she spoke with Jimmy about the settlement.

[Bryce Lynch]

22 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

My guess is that Jimmy felt he had to handle things that way because he was not allowed to practice law for a fixed period. Therefor he could not advise Irene to settle and he had to arrange events so that she would demand to settle immediately.

I don't see Jimmy as being cruel to Irene. The way he orgnized these events, she should be able to repair her relationships with her friends by explaining things and then arranging for them to get their money almost immediately.

When she explains to her friends that she now knows she can arrange for the suit to be settled almost immediately and when all her friends get their money right quick, they should be willing to forgive her and they should then be very happy.

As I understand the situation, Howard wants to delay for a long time and that would result in the ladies getting a little more money while Howard would get a lot more money. By settling immediately, the ladies will get almost the maximum money they could get by delaying. But they will get their money real quick and if things are explained to them, they should be happy and they should forgive Irene for not understanding. If they won't, I'm guessing Jimmy will help them see the light and all the ladies will be friends again.

My guess is that this is a rather small problem for Irene if it is explained properly to her friends and I cannot believe that Jimmy would leave Irene in such a way that her former friends all hate her now. I'm fairly sure that he would ensure Irene's situation is repaired. I can't know that for sure. But it seems to me that he's arranged things in such a way that it won't be difficult to put things back the way they were with respect to Irene's relationship with her friends.

I don't believe we've ever seen Jimmy arrange to cause great harm to someone who did not deserve any harm - like Irene. Yes, he takes shortcuts at times. But I can't recall any time where he behaved like a real bastard. I can't recall where he arranged a situation such that someone would be left suffering a great harm when they did not deserve it.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. But it seems to me the only time Jimmy has caused serious harm to others was when they truly deserved it - when they had first caused a comparable amount of harm to others.

I see Jimmy's motives completely differently.   He doesn't give a crap out Irene or the other clients.  He wants HIS share of the money and he wants it right away.   And he is willing to manipulate a bunch of old ladies and cause one to be ostracized by the rest to get it.  He is being incredibly cruel to Irene, IMO.  I don't think Irene's friends will forgive her quickly, if they forgive her at all.  

I think Davis & Main is holding out for more money, because they believe the payout will be much larger than what Sandpiper is offering.  Kim seemed shocked when Jimmy told her the case was being settled so quickly.  I doubt Sandpiper would be making anything close to their best offer at this stage in the case.  Whether or not the quick settlement is or is not good for the clients is totally irrelevant to Jimmy.  All he cares about is getting his share, now.  

Jimmy was a real bastard when he doctored Chuck's Mesa Verde files, but at least in his mind, Chuck "deserved it" and Kim deserved Mesa Verde. But,  he hasn't targeted totally innocent people with his scams and or sought to do long term harm to people.   I think his horrible cruelty towards Irene and his total selfish disregard for collateral damage is  a new thing for Jimmy and I think it is meant to demonstrate that  "nice Jimmy" has transformed into a much darker character.   

[PeterPirate]

28 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

BTW, of the settlement, D&M will get a fairly decent chunk, being the attorneys doing the majority of the work (sometimes this is a 1/3 contingency fee, sometimes it is a per hour fee, it depends on the agreement and the claim - some lawsuit claims can include a request for attorneys fees as damages - and yes if the arrangement is payment by the hour, then the more work D&M does, the larger their share will be).  Jimmy also gets a decent chunk, since he's the initial handling/referring attorney.  HHM will get a smaller piece, being an intermediary/referring counsel.  Also, lawsuit settlement damages/recovery are not taxed as income, except in some very limited circumstances, which I don't believe apply here.  Obviously once the settlement is completed and the money distributed, that would become part of any plaintiff's estate, which could be subject to estate taxes (without proper estate planning).

 

When Jimmy was doing his money math calculations, he assigned himself 1/15 of the $17.4 million. Since he is entitled to 20%--or 1/5--of the common fund, this means that the common fund is 1/3 of the payout. 

[Hanahope]

1 minute ago, PeterPirate said:

When Jimmy was doing his money math calculations, he assigned himself 1/15 of the $17.4 million. Since he is entitled to 20%--or 1/5--of the common fund, this means that the common fund is 1/3 of the payout. 

Not sure exactly what "common fund" means (I've not heard that term before - maybe its local to NM), but it sounds like attorneys fees.

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, Hanahope said:

If Chuck were reasonable, HHM wouldn't have to completely buy him out or not pay him anything.  Many attorneys when they become emeritus at firms continue to receive some income from the firm.  A firm typically only has to 'buy out' the partner if the partner intends to take his name with him when he goes because he still wants to actively practice law.

That's not the case for medical practices in my area.  A share has a monetary value that the departing partner is entitled to no matter what they are doing after they leave.  What is the $7-8 million figure referring to?  I think it's his ownership share in the firm.  If not, then there would be nothing to worry about, Chuck could just be aced out.

57 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Jimmy was a real bastard when he doctored Chuck's Mesa Verde files, but at least in his mind, Chuck "deserved it" and Kim deserved Mesa Verde. But,  he hasn't targeted totally innocent people with his scams and or sought to do long term harm to people.   I think his horrible cruelty towards Irene and his total selfish disregard for collateral damage is  a new thing for Jimmy and I think it is meant to demonstrate that  "nice Jimmy" has transformed into a much darker character.   

I think this is pretty true.  He was edging toward this with bringing in Rebecca, then not caring how she felt about it afterward.  He's a whole lot colder than we've seen him.  It's actually colder than we see him as Saul in BB, so maybe he edges back a little and tries to make some amends to Irene.  It seems not unlikely that Irene may mention the reasoning behind her change of heart to D&M, so this may still blow up on him, and he would deserve it. 

[rue721]

1 hour ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

After what happened in Jimmy's hearing though, I think Howard realized that arrangement was no longer feasible or working and something different had to be come up with.  He through out some suggestions and tried to hint at this to Chuck as gently as possible and Chuck just got pissed and would hear nothing of it.  I am sure Howard would have been open to some other arrangements or ideas if CHuck had any between retirement and the current situation, but Chuck is just determined to not let it happen.

Also, Howard knew that Jimmy was the foundation of Chuck's support system, and seeing Chuck go off in the hearing, and really, truly realizing that the rift between Jimmy and Chuck is total and permanent probably freaked Howard the hell out.

I mean, Jimmy literally handed over Chuck's care to Howard after the brothers' initial rift, when he gave Howard his list of duties -- and Howard was overwhelmed just reading the list. He got Ernie on board ASAP to take some of the weight off of himself, but the tape fiasco resulted in Ernie getting fired. The hearing and Howard's debrief with Chuck the night after cemented that there is NOBODY else besides Howard who Chuck is on good terms with and who is in a position to give him the necessary support.

But Howard is no Jimmy. He isn't interested in caring for Chuck in that way, let alone caring for him like that forever.

I don't fault Howard for that at all. Maybe he owes Chuck SOMETHING for being his mentor and partner at the firm, but he doesn't owe him THAT. Even Jimmy didn't owe him that, but he loved Chuck, so he was willing/happy to do it.

Chuck screwed up big LOL.

But at the same time, I have been feeling for Chuck the last couple episodes. Yeah, it sucks that he's sue happy and unreasonable. But you've got to give the guy credit for having some major steel in his spine. I like that Chuck is a fighter.

1 hour ago, MissBluxom said:

When she explains to her friends that she now knows she can arrange for the suit to be settled almost immediately and when all her friends get their money right quick, they should be willing to forgive her and they should then be very happy.

I doubt that money will buy her back her friends again, because the rift that Jimmy was instigating wasn't really about money.

He made sure the ladies knew that it was Irene who was the star, the decider, the one who had control over the situation, that they were powerless and had no status compared to her. That's what stoked their rage at her IMO. He made them feel powerless so that they'd bite back at her and show her that they're not powerless and can't just be stamped on after all. And IMO that's exactly how they reacted.

This isn't a problem caused by money, or lack thereof, IMO, so it's not a problem that will be solved by it, either. Same can be said for what's going on in Jimmy's life, too. That's why I thought it was so delusional and absurd when he figured he would be getting the settlement and said "all our troubles are over!" Like one trouble is over, Jimmy. You still have no family, no career, no friends, nothing. Lol.

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The Chuck situation is surely hurting business.  But, I think if Howard had been more upfront with the clients, the damage would have been far, less severe.  Most of them probably never had Chuck do any work directly for them or at least hadn't for years.  I think the real issue is trust.  If HHM hid this from them, what else might they hide and can the firm be trusted?

I don't think that Howard COULD tell the clients about Chuck's health issues, could he? I mean, aren't there privacy laws about that?

1 hour ago, Hanahope said:

I don't see why HHM couldn't assign a partner to work with Chuck, especially since, so far, Chuck isn't actually working on any cases (not since MV and Sandpiper).  And even when Chuck worked on MV, Howard was at the hearing too, so what's the problem with just having another different partner attend hearings as necessary.

[...]

Obviously Chuck is not going to be reasonable.  It just might behoove Howard to dissolve HHM, and reopen a new firm, Hamlin and X (whoever he can get to pony up extra money to be a 'named' partner) and then rehire everyone from before.

It's really too bad that Jimmy and Chuck can't get along, because wouldn't it have been really nice and easy if Jimmy were an associate (based on the Sandpiper deal), and they could just make him a partner and have him be Chuck's assigned "help"?

Anyway, having to do with the name thing:  maybe Howard or Chuck decide they do want to shutter HHM and open up a new firm, but want to include the McGill name in it -- so they buy out Jimmy? Maybe they pay him for use of the McGill name somehow, and that's why he opens a new firm under the name Goodman?

I'm still thinking that something GOOD is likely the trigger for Jimmy becoming Saul, because Saul is generally so much happier and more confident than Jimmy.

43 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Jimmy was a real bastard when he doctored Chuck's Mesa Verde files, but at least in his mind, Chuck "deserved it" and Kim deserved Mesa Verde. But,  he hasn't targeted totally innocent people with his scams and or sought to do long term harm to people.   I think his horrible cruelty towards Irene and his total selfish disregard for collateral damage is  a new thing for Jimmy and I think it is meant to demonstrate that  "nice Jimmy" has transformed into a much darker character.   

I agree that Jimmy hustled Irene and her friends for his own personal gain, not to help them.

But I think that with Mesa Verde, it wasn't about him trying to fuck over Chuck nearly as much as it was about him trying to make sure Kim kept her business. I think that fucking over Chuck was still more of a necessary evil than a draw for Jimmy at that point.

1 minute ago, ShadowFacts said:

I think this is pretty true.  He was edging toward this with bringing in Rebecca, then not caring how she felt about it afterward.  He's a whole lot colder than we've seen him.  It's actually colder than we see him as Saul in BB, so maybe he edges back a little and tries to make some amends to Irene.  It seems not unlikely that Irene may mention the reasoning behind her change of heart to D&M, so this may still blow up on him, and he would deserve it. 

Yes, I agree 100%.

[Bryce Lynch]

13 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

That's not the case for medical practices in my area.  A share has a monetary value that the departing partner is entitled to no matter what they are doing after they leave.  What is the $7-8 million figure referring to?  I think it's his ownership share in the firm.  If not, then there would be nothing to worry about, Chuck could just be aced out.

I think this is pretty true.  He was edging toward this with bringing in Rebecca, then not caring how she felt about it afterward.  He's a whole lot colder than we've seen him.  It's actually colder than we see him as Saul in BB, so maybe he edges back a little and tries to make some amends to Irene.  It seems not unlikely that Irene may mention the reasoning behind her change of heart to D&M, so this may still blow up on him, and he would deserve it. 

I think another instance where Jimmy was edging toward being Saul was when he told the insurance company about Chuck.  He wasn't trying to help Kim as he was with the MV document doctoring, or save his career, as he was when he humiliated Chuck at the hearing.  There was nothing in that for Jimmy, except hurting Chuck.  What he did to Irene took it to another level.  

I hadn't thought of this until now, but I am sure Jimmy, as clever as he his, could have come up with some argument or scheme to get Irene to agree to the settlement, without making her friendless and miserable.  The fact that he chose such a hurtful scheme shows how far Jimmy has fallen into Saul-ness. 

[DrSpaceman73]

I do find it surprising the settlement for a class action lawsuit would happen so quickly.  Usually takes many years.  Even for an offer. 

 

In regard to the amount Jimmy would receive though, pretty sure he mumbled it out loud as he was doing the calculations in his head and it was a little over a million dollars, like 1.1 million

[Bryce Lynch]

3 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I do find it surprising the settlement for a class action lawsuit would happen so quickly.  Usually takes many years.  Even for an offer. 

 

In regard to the amount Jimmy would receive though, pretty sure he mumbled it out loud as he was doing the calculations in his head and it was a little over a million dollars, like 1.1 million

I believe the exact amount was $1,160,000, which was $17.4 million divided by 3 times 20%.  He is almost as good at Walter at doing calculations in his head. :)

[ShadowFacts]

11 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I do find it surprising the settlement for a class action lawsuit would happen so quickly.  Usually takes many years.  Even for an offer. 

My daughter was a member of a class action, and when she received notice that the court approved the settlement, it was months before a check came, at least three I think.

45 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I hadn't thought of this until now, but I am sure Jimmy, as clever as he his, could have come up with some argument or scheme to get Irene to agree to the settlement, without making her friendless and miserable.  The fact that he chose such a hurtful scheme shows how far Jimmy has fallen into Saul-ness. 

That's a good point.  He could have charmed her Jimmy-style about something dear to her heart, like cats, and how it would be so nice if she had that dandy settlement money to establish a cat shelter, something like that.  Less props and stunts, no hurting of her feelings and isolating her. 

[ghoulina]

3 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

I don't see Jimmy as being cruel to Irene. The way he orgnized these events, she should be able to repair her relationships with her friends by explaining things and then arranging for them to get their money almost immediately.

That would be nice, but it may not work out that way. Maybe they'll hang out together again, maybe not. But either way, it's likely Irene will never forget how quickly they turned on her, and didn't even come to her before icing her out. And they likely won't let go of the seed of doubt that Jimmy planted in their minds. They might always distrust her. Fact is, they're old, fairly isolated, and easy to manipulate. I don't even care if they do become best friends again, nothing is worth the pain he caused Irene IN that moment. It broke my heart to watch. 

 

2 hours ago, Hanahope said:

The last time we saw the Sandpiper class action, they were still in the process of signing up clients.  That was what, just a few months ago in BCS time?  Maybe 6 months since Jimmy left D&M?  Class actions do move a bit slower than most lawsuits, since there's so many people.  There could be discovery to answer, depositions to take, etc.  Yes, the defendant gave a settlement offer.  Many times defendants do, hoping to settle the case quick before spending money in discovery.  Almost certainly D&M could get a higher settlement offer further down the road.    It isn't necessarily because the lawfirm could get more money as well, although that is probably true too.  Also, a court/judge does have to approve the settlement in a class action, so just because Irene tells Jimmy that she's going to tell D&M she wants to settle, that doesn't mean that it is going to settle for sure.  Jimmy is again jumping the gun a bit.

Good points. Also, even if the elderly people aren't going to live long enough to use all that potential money, it isn't just about what THEY get, but what the offending company PAYS. Sure, Sandpiper could offer to settle and D&M/HHM might take it and be done with it. But what if they feel like it's a seriously low offer, in light of what was done? It's about justice, no matter how the money gets spent. The old ladies could leave some to their kids, if they can't spend it all. But Sandpiper shouldn't get off the hook just because their victims are nearing the end of their lives. 

[MisterBluxom]

44 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

My daughter was a member of a class action, and when she received notice that the court approved the settlement, it was months before a check came, at least three I think.

That's a good point.  He could have charmed her Jimmy-style about something dear to her heart, like cats, and how it would be so nice if she had that dandy settlement money to establish a cat shelter, something like that.  Less props and stunts, no hurting of her feelings and isolating her. 

Your daughter was very lucky to have gotten that money so quickly.  My sense is that most people don't understand how extremely big the gap is between getting a court order for someone to pay money after you win a lawsuit and getting the money.

I'm not exactly sure. But I would guess that perhaps as many as 90 percent of the time, people do not pay up reasonably quickly. The first reaction is usually to not pay for many different reasons. They may appeal the decision. They may delay paying. They may just skip out of paying by leaving the jurisdiction or any one of a hundred different reasons. I think the most common reason is that they claim they just don't have the money (often because they hid it) and declare bankruptcy.

Yes. Your daughter is very fortunate.

I would love to know, if anyone here has a reasonable idea, when someone wins a sizable judgement from a court and gets a court order, how often do they actually get the money? Also, how long does it usually take for them to get the money?

I would guess the only way people get the money is if the court order is made against a very high profile company who can't afford to be seen as skipping out of their obligations by the public. Corporations like banks or others that rely on the public trust. They can't afford to be seen as sleazy con artists who will just skip town to avoid paying court ordered damages. If the defendant is not a big name corporation, I would think the only way little people can collect is if the defendant has assets that are worth a lot more money than the judgement (things like homes or real estate they can't easily put into someone else's name).

In any event, I sure would love to know just how often it pays to sue someone for money and just what kind of people or companies actually pay up and which kind just thumb their noses at the plaintiff. I think it's a much bigger number than most of us might ever think.

[JudyObscure]

I wouldn't put it past the in crowd at Sandpiper to get their settlement, buy themselves some snappy new outfits and then, a year from now, start thinking to themselves, "Boy howdy if that Irene hadn't been so anxious to get her greedy mitts on that money, we would all have a few thousand more right now to sock away for the grandkids."  They aren't poor people in need or they wouldn't be living in such a nice private assisted living home.  They are the generation that would save for years to buy a new car or sofa, rather than get it now and pay finance charges.  Money in the bank is important to them, maybe even more than nice new things.  Jimmy just made them all think Irene was getting something they weren't and that the money difference was only peanuts but his influence will drift away soon.  I'm mad at the whole gang.  I hope Irene moves some place swankier.

[ghoulina]

25 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Jimmy just made them all think Irene was getting something they weren't and that the money difference was only peanuts but his influence will drift away soon.  I'm mad at the whole gang.  I hope Irene moves some place swankier.

It's definitely not swankier, but she can move in with me!

[Bryce Lynch]

10 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

It's definitely not swankier, but she can move in with me!

Is Felix the cat welcome too?  

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

My daughter was a member of a class action, and when she received notice that the court approved the settlement, it was months before a check came, at least three I think.

That's a good point.  He could have charmed her Jimmy-style about something dear to her heart, like cats, and how it would be so nice if she had that dandy settlement money to establish a cat shelter, something like that.  Less props and stunts, no hurting of her feelings and isolating her. 

There you go!  Cats!  Something like that definitely would have worked.  

[ghoulina]

3 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Is Felix the cat welcome too?  

Absolutely! But she better bring the Hydrox cookies. I got a sweet tooth. 

[DrSpaceman73]

Yes I hadn't thought of the fact too, even with the settlement theoretically finalized, its going to be several months or longer before Jimmy gets any money.  Its not like all his money woes are immediately over. 

[Bryce Lynch]

Is it possible Jimmy is being so mean to Irene because she still owes him $97 for the will? :)

[PrincessSteel]

16 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Jimmy didn't get just Irene's friends to turn against her. When she hit Bingo the entire room went silent.  Irene put up with a lot of shunning before she finally cracked. 

This may turn out better for Irene. Before this she was just another Sandpiper resident. Pretty soon she will be the person who got everyone else thousands of dollars. 

Methinks you have never been to a geriatric bingo game...I used to go with my Nana, and the room is downright frosty when someone wins, especially if they win fast!

[Ailianna]

7 hours ago, Hanahope said:

Not sure exactly what "common fund" means (I've not heard that term before - maybe its local to NM), but it sounds like attorneys fees.

Common fund means just what it sounds like.  It's the part of the settlement that goes to all the nameless members of the class.  There's a big chunk that goes to the attorneys, for sure (which is why attorneys bother with class actions in the first place), but the named plaintiff--in this case, Irene--gets a MUCH bigger chunk than the nameless people in the class, on the theory that they are doing more work and "earning" more money.  Often, it's 1/3 to the common fund, 1/3 to attorneys, and 1/3 to named plaintiff--Irene is getting a whole lot more money than any of her friends, which is going to make Jimmy's innuendo about how she doesn't need money seem even more true after the settlement than a single pair of sneakers makes it seem now.  I don't think getting the money will help her friendships at all.  

22 minutes ago, PrincessSteel said:

Methinks you have never been to a geriatric bingo game...I used to go with my Nana, and the room is downright frosty when someone wins, especially if they win fast!

Which is why they showed a guy called Paul winning right before, and he got lots of claps and congratulations.  To show that she was being ostracized and that the whole place was now anti-Irene.

[queenanne]

On 6/12/2017 at 11:33 PM, Sharper2002 said:

I do feel bad for Kim, but I still have no idea why she took on another client when Mesa Verda was more than enough work for her. Extra kudos? Still feeling guilt over Jimmy's transgression? To prove to herself that she has the juice? She can take it from me: burnout is real.

At this point I have no problem believing it's money.  As long as she's not willing to hire a junior attorney, her earning potential is stalled because she's only got so many hours in the day/week, and she is worrying a lot about carrying Jimmy.

On 6/13/2017 at 1:00 AM, Irlandesa said:

He calculated that he'd get over a million dollars as his part of the settlement.  It would solve his money problems for the next year.  He could pay rent and he wouldn't have to hustle like he has been in the past few weeks. 

I'm wondering just how clean his hands are here.  He's suspended from practicing law.  Wouldn't the bar take a negative view about him interacting with clients and discussing their current case with him?  He basically wrote the script for Irene about why the women were treating her poorly.

I saw what he did here as bad.  He rigged a Bingo game and emotionally manipulated a group of women who likely mainly had one another in their advanced age.  He knew their lawyers weren't giving them bad advice because the lawsuit was worth a lot.  But he was willing to sacrifice their full payout and their happiness for his quick settlement. 

I think it's a mixed bag - it was good that he tactfully pointed out that "you can't take it with you", but bad that he underplayed the angle of how much money they could gain if they waited.

As for Howard, I think the mentor part revealed this week explained a lot about why Howard catered to Chuck for so long.  He probably holds great fondness for Chuck as a pseudo-father figure, thus he would willingly go to great lengths to make him content.

[shapeshifter]

14 hours ago, Lion18 said:

I had the same thought about Kim. Since she crashed, missed her appointment and lost all her papers I felt she will now have to go back to jimmy and might even join him in his scams. 

That didn't cross my mind, but now that you mention it, I fear that the brilliant and talented Kim will wind up in prison, which initially sounded devastating to me (and her) but could ultimately be more satisfying than her present experiences in corporate law, as she instead fights to get the release of the many imprisoned women who won't give up their big time drug dealer male relatives or who killed their long time abusers.

 

The relationships of Chuck with his enablers (Howard, Jimmy, and maybe in some way Rebecca or his parents) is an object lesson for us all. I, for example, have worked for the same boss for 16 years while all of her other employees have left—either in or after tears and anguish. I should have left 15 and a half years ago when I first got the notion to do so and then outed her as an emotionally abusive bully who needs at the very least management training. The job got my kids through college, but today I heard her doing it to her child. I'm an enabler like Howard, Jimmy, et al.
I appreciate that Vince Gilligan didn't make the enabler lesson an on-the-nose, after school special, but I hope the example will be strong enough in the end to change a life or two.

[Bama]

Quote

And also based on HIPAA laws, Howard is very limited on what he could tell clients about CHuck and his medical condition. 

Yeah, I don't think Howard would have been right to blab to all HHM's clients "Well, Chuck has a mental illness that manifests itself as a physical allergy to all electricity" but when Chuck became too unwell to even make into the office Howard should have consulted with Chuck and insisted they craft a statement to give to any client that Chuck might do legal work for.

Something like "Charles McGill will be doing all work associated with your case from his home at 1212 McGill Lane.  All files, documents, paperwork, or other material related to your case will be transported from the offices of HHM to the McGill residence.  All work materials will be stored at the residence for the duration of Mr. McGill's work.  HHM and Mr. McGill welcome you to visit his residence to ensure all work materials are stored and secured to your liking.  If these conditions do not meet your requirements, HHM will assign your case to one of our other excellent attorneys."

HHM should have immediately notified their insurance carrier of the change in Chuck's work environment.  His rate would have probably increased but nothing like what they are facing now with the rates doubled for the whole firm.

HHM may have taken a small hit on the front end but now they are going to pay a big price - monetarily in increased insurance costs and possible loss of clients and in reputation for hiding and being misleading about Chuck.

His mental issues didn't have to be spelled out but his living circumstances would have been enough evidence for most clients to see something ain't right with Chuck.  It's not going to be Chuck's circumstances alone that costs HHM - it's that the firm hid those circumstances.

It's always the cover-up that bites you in the ass.

[Bryce Lynch]

7 hours ago, Bama said:

Yeah, I don't think Howard would have been right to blab to all HHM's clients "Well, Chuck has a mental illness that manifests itself as a physical allergy to all electricity" but when Chuck became too unwell to even make into the office Howard should have consulted with Chuck and insisted they craft a statement to give to any client that Chuck might do legal work for.

Something like "Charles McGill will be doing all work associated with your case from his home at 1212 McGill Lane.  All files, documents, paperwork, or other material related to your case will be transported from the offices of HHM to the McGill residence.  All work materials will be stored at the residence for the duration of Mr. McGill's work.  HHM and Mr. McGill welcome you to visit his residence to ensure all work materials are stored and secured to your liking.  If these conditions do not meet your requirements, HHM will assign your case to one of our other excellent attorneys."

HHM should have immediately notified their insurance carrier of the change in Chuck's work environment.  His rate would have probably increased but nothing like what they are facing now with the rates doubled for the whole firm.

HHM may have taken a small hit on the front end but now they are going to pay a big price - monetarily in increased insurance costs and possible loss of clients and in reputation for hiding and being misleading about Chuck.

His mental issues didn't have to be spelled out but his living circumstances would have been enough evidence for most clients to see something ain't right with Chuck.  It's not going to be Chuck's circumstances alone that costs HHM - it's that the firm hid those circumstances.

It's always the cover-up that bites you in the ass.

I agree with your assessment of what HHM should have done.  I'm not sure if their insurance rates would have gone up at all.  If the carrier was told that Chuck would only be working minimal hours from home, his personal rate might have even gone down.  

They might have lost a few clients, but the remaining ones would not now feel like they were mislead or kept in the dark, and would not be questioning whether they could trust Howard and HHM.  

[Bryce Lynch]

8 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

That didn't cross my mind, but now that you mention it, I fear that the brilliant and talented Kim will wind up in prison, which initially sounded devastating to me (and her) but could ultimately be more satisfying than her present experiences in corporate law, as she instead fights to get the release of the many imprisoned women who won't give up their big time drug dealer male relatives or who killed their long time abusers.

 

The relationships of Chuck with his enablers (Howard, Jimmy, and maybe in some way Rebecca or his parents) is an object lesson for us all. I, for example, have worked for the same boss for 16 years while all of her other employees have left—either in or after tears and anguish. I should have left 15 and a half years ago when I first got the notion to do so and then outed her as an emotionally abusive bully who needs at the very least management training. The job got my kids through college, but today I heard her doing it to her child. I'm an enabler like Howard, Jimmy, et al.
I appreciate that Vince Gilligan didn't make the enabler lesson an on-the-nose, after school special, but I hope the example will be strong enough in the end to change a life or two.

I don't really think prison would be an upgrade for Kim.  How about just cutting back from 20 to 12 or 14 hours a day. :)

I don't think we have any evidence that Chuck's parents or Rebecca enabled Chuck.  If anything, it seems like they might have enabled Slippin' Jimmy in his slacker, con-artist lifestyle.  

We don't have a whole lot of insight into what Chuck was like before his "condition".  We do know that he made the careers of most of the members of the ethics panel and that he tutored young Howard Hamlin for the bar exam.  There is evidence to suggest, that in addition to being a great lawyer, he was also a great mentor to many, young attorneys.  

Just like Jimmy was not always anywhere near as bad as Saul Goodman becomes, it is possible and even likely that Chuck was once a much nicer and more stable person. 

[PeterPirate]

22 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

I don't believe we've ever seen Jimmy arrange to cause great harm to someone who did not deserve any harm - like Irene. Yes, he takes shortcuts at times. But I can't recall any time where he behaved like a real bastard. I can't recall where he arranged a situation such that someone would be left suffering a great harm when they did not deserve it.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. But it seems to me the only time Jimmy has caused serious harm to others was when they truly deserved it - when they had first caused a comparable amount of harm to others.

In terms of what we've seen on screen, one could argue that the Music Store Twins did not deserve to be forced to fork over cash and a guitar because of Jimmy's slip and fall, especially since they were willing to compensate Jimmy for the first ad.  

But it's my take that the nickname Slippin' Jimmy refers to criminal behavior. If his nickname was Scammin' Jimmy that would be one thing. But to fake getting injured and then threaten to sue perfectly innocent people can considered a crime in this country. I doubt there are many people who wouldn't prosecute the Skateboard Brothers for extortion if they had video evidence that they or a loved one had been the target of their scam.  And we all know of the woman who was sent to prison for putting a severed finger into a bowl of Wendy's chili.

Edited June 15, 2017 by PeterPirate

[ShadowFacts]

9 hours ago, Bama said:

Yeah, I don't think Howard would have been right to blab to all HHM's clients "Well, Chuck has a mental illness that manifests itself as a physical allergy to all electricity" but when Chuck became too unwell to even make into the office Howard should have consulted with Chuck and insisted they craft a statement to give to any client that Chuck might do legal work for.

I don't think we know how much work Chuck was even doing before Jimmy got his elder clients and Sandpiper.  If he really wasn't doing any, the communication to clients could have been that he was on sabbatical.   He shouldn't have been doing any case work while as ill as he was, maybe just been kept informed about the firm's financial health, etc.   Chuck wouldn't agree to the disclaimer about where the documents were and that clients could come inspect.  The clients would go running anyway the minute they had to deposit their watches, keys and phones in his mailbox.  Howard was in a tough spot there but the fact that he didn't do anything but be content to let Jimmy take care of Chuck's daily care didn't work out so well.

9 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

That didn't cross my mind, but now that you mention it, I fear that the brilliant and talented Kim will wind up in prison, which initially sounded devastating to me (and her) but could ultimately be more satisfying than her present experiences in corporate law, as she instead fights to get the release of the many imprisoned women who won't give up their big time drug dealer male relatives or who killed their long time abusers.

I don't know if she'll end up in prison or some other dire straits, but if she continues to be cozy with Jimmy, it won't be happy ending time.  Unless the show runners make a big divergence from Breaking Bad, criminals and those who abide their criminality don't survive intact, if they survive at all.  She will have to make a clean break with him or eventually face some unpleasant consequences. 

[nodorothyparker]

Howard characterized Chuck in the very beginning as being "on medical leave," which would probably imply to the average person that he's not handling legal work.  We saw Howard a couple of times in those early episodes make generic comments to Chuck about how HHM would love to have him come into the office for a bit, but there was never really any sense that Chuck was at all interested in that or ever took him up on it.  Sandpiper the case began because Jimmy brought all of the work he was doing on wills and bags of shredded Sandpiper documents over to Chuck's house with him while he was playing fetch and carry, which got Chuck interested enough to take a look when he fell asleep.   It was a big deal for Chuck when Jimmy helped him figure out how to make the foil lined suit so he could go out in public or to hearings, which suggests that he wasn't doing that before.

[benteen]

Medical leave was misleading.  Chuck wasn't even attempting to address his problems.  Howard was around enough to know this.

Edited June 15, 2017 by benteen

[Bryce Lynch]

4 minutes ago, benteen said:

Medical leave was misleading.  Chuck wasn't even attempting to address his problems.  Howard was around enough to know this.

[Bryce Lynch]

5 minutes ago, benteen said:

Medical leave was misleading.  Chuck wasn't even attempting to address his problems.  Howard was around enough to know this.

I don't think I would call it misleading.  He was on leave due to a perceived medical condition.  Also, Chuck was trying to address his "allergy".  During the hearing it was implied that he had been to doctors but none of them diagnosed his allergy.  In "Uno" Chuck gives Jimmy a letter he wants translated into Finnish and send to an EMS expert in Helsinki.  He might not be dealing with his issues in the best way, but he has been trying.

Also, I don't think it is relevant whether the patient is doing all he should (or what people might think he should) to try to heal.  If Walter White had decided not to do the chemo, I think he still would have been eligible for medial leave.  

Did Howard actually tell any clients Chuck was on medical leave?  I don't recall this.

[nodorothyparker]

I don't remember any scenes where Howard specifically told clients about the medical leave either, but the phrase definitely came up in early season discussions with Jimmy.  In the premier episode when Jimmy is wanting HHM to cash Chuck out, they say it's been at least a year since he even set foot in the building.  From that and knowing that Howard and Chuck both insisting that there was no need to do that because Chuck would recover, I think assumptions can be made about what they were likely telling clients if any even asked.  Most people hear medical leave and assume there's a serious medical condition the person is dealing with and don't ask any further. 

I want to say that's how he characterized it during Kim's questioning at the disciplinary hearing too, but I can't go back and look right now to verify.

[tiredofwork]

Quote

I don't trust Saul one bit when he claims taking the settlement now would be in the best interests of the clients.  He has not been involved in the case for several months ,so he has no idea how it is going. More importantly he wants his money now and he clearly doesn't care about anything else.  

I am in the insurance claims biz.  The stark and vivid reality of a claim is that If you lose the client to death, there is likely no recourse.  The claim will die with that person unless the occurrence is the thing that caused the death and then there has to be persons with proper standing to collect in place of that deceased plaintiff.   Now certainly in this case we are not speaking of an occurrence like an accident that caused physical injury.. But, nonetheless when a plaintiff attorney has an elderly client nervousness always sets in that all could be lost due to natural cause of death.  These plaintiffs are all elderly and "tomorrow is not promised".   So I believe Jimmy/Saul recognizes that fact and it is time to close the deal.  

[Bryce Lynch]

20 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I don't remember any scenes where Howard specifically told clients about the medical leave either, but the phrase definitely came up in early season discussions with Jimmy.  In the premier episode when Jimmy is wanting HHM to cash Chuck out, they say it's been at least a year since he even set foot in the building.  From that and knowing that Howard was insisting that there was no need to do that because Chuck would recover, I think assumptions can be made about what they were likely telling clients if any even asked.  Most people hear medical leave and assume there's a serious medical condition the person is dealing with and don't ask any further. 

I want to say that's how he characterized it during Kim's questioning at the disciplinary hearing too, but I can't go back and look right now to verify.

During Howard's testimony it was called it a "FMLA leave" and he said he could not give any more details due to confidentiality.  Kim asked him to confirm it was due to mental illness, an objection was made and upheld and that was the end of his testimony.  

Edited June 16, 2017 by Bryce Lynch