S10.E08: The Lie Of The Land

[Tara Ariano]

Quote

Bill and Nardole must embark on a deadly mission to rescue the Doctor.

[John Potts]

Well, better than last week, but it was all a little too easy. I'm glad Missy pointed out that there was a "simple" solution to defeating the Monks (even if that scene was a total Silence of the Lambs rip off - and on that subject, no way has she reformed, she's just biding her time). And even if I do think the subjugation of mankind WAS her fault, I do applaud Bill for owning up to her mistake and offering to sacrifice herself for the planet (THAT's heroic) - I just wish TPTB didn't imply that sacrifice is entirely painless and everything will be alright because you acted in good faith/loved your mother/didn't really mean it. I like Bill (if nothing else, she has a brilliant surname!) and everyone's entitled to make mistakes, but there should be some consequences of giving the world to the villains.

[AudienceofOne]

Well that was lovely and heartwarming. Totally nonsensical and borderline offensive as a trilogy but still lovely and heartwarming. Bill overcame the False News with The Truth to defeat the Oligarchy.

Except that she didn't.

She defeated it with emotion and a false memory of somebody she created in her own mind. So she just replaced the new dictatorship of false memories with the comfortable existing dictatorship of false memories. And apparently this WASN'T all a simulation so last episode's fustercluck really happened.

Once again somebody wasn't paying attention in subtext and semiotics class. Which for a writer should literally be a crime.

Edited June 3, 2017 by AudienceofOne

[Triskan]

Thankfully after a very disapointing (at least for me) Pyramid, well Lie was fantastic ! 

I dont care about the fake-out regen' , some might outcry that it's a Moffat trope (fakes, convulted plan...), but until the very last moment I was on edge ! Even the fact that the Doctor could have gotten out of the prison easily but prefered to remain quiet and "obedient" until Bill came back to him (although I wonder why it took so long for them to try and reach her out) doesnt bother me.

What could actually, is the final resolution, but it makes sense. First Bill is their link, their anchor, so it kinda makes sense that she's more equiped to deal a massive blow to the Monks, and yeah, it's twisted, but she got them with a lie (the whole image she's made up of her mother is a lie, a beautiful one, but she has no idea what her mother would be like in the end), so a lie perverted the lies... convulted, sure, but makes sense... at least to me.

And I got quite emotional at the line : "On 7 billion people, there's always someone like you. That's how I put up with the rest of them." Beautiful. The "epic" final resolution montage on Bill's mum with the Doctor's speech was truly clever but it didnt get me teary like that one simple line... but I guess that's the point actually, that montage wasnt so much about being emotional than being clever... or that's just my take on it.

Oh, and the visuals of the episode were amazing, some great screencaps potential there, the direction, the cinematography (very dark, dystopian world with echoes of Turn Left sometimes), the coloring, the sound-mixing was on point ! My only regret would be the music... I love Twelve's theme, but I miss another recuring epic score like All the strange, strange, creatures. Damn, that music is so great, it gets me everytime, and I'd like for Murray Gold to use it more often (or adapt it), because I really miss it and it brings me everytimes to my early days of Doctor Who, and makes me revive the joy of discovering it for the first time... which makes me think, we all assume (I suppose) that Murray Gold will stay after Moffat, but has it been officially confirmed ? (and speaking of that, nice touch of This Is Gallifrey, there !)

Edited June 3, 2017 by Triskan

[Lokiberry]

I enjoyed it. The visuals were great and the acting was fantastic (as usual). I particularly enjoyed Bill and Nardole; they make a fun team. I just don't think this story was worthy of three episodes.

I'm not convinced that Missy is on the road to redemption. The Doctor would be foolish to believe that she's sincere and not playing him. Also, why did he describe the two of them as the last of the Time Lords? Did the memory wipe in Hell Bent make him forget that he found Gallifrey?

Moffat trolled the fandom pretty hard. I've spent the last week reading all kinds of wacky theories about that "regeneration", and then in the end it was "nope, just a fake out".

[Avon.Blakes7]

1 hour ago, Lokiberry said:

I enjoyed it. The visuals were great and the acting was fantastic (as usual). I particularly enjoyed Bill and Nardole; they make a fun team. I just don't think this story was worthy of three episodes.

I'm not convinced that Missy is on the road to redemption. The Doctor would be foolish to believe that she's sincere and not playing him. Also, why did he describe the two of them as the last of the Time Lords? Did the memory wipe in Hell Bent make him forget that he found Gallifrey?

Moffat trolled the fandom pretty hard. I've spent the last week reading all kinds of wacky theories about that "regeneration", and then in the end it was "nope, just a fake out".

Just watching it now and questioned my sanity; "where have I seen this plot before?" Instantly thought of the Silence and how they were supposedly "here all the time!" ;-( 

Spoiler

I love how The Doctor's chewing out Bill; probably won't last and will apologize later! OMG, shot! Part of a master plan I guess! Like Bill would shoot ANYONE for real!

Edited June 4, 2017 by Avon.Blakes7

[Lantern7]

"I am with the Monks now. You lose, Bill. Good day. I SAID GOOD DAY!!" Two minutes later: "Psyche! I'm not that far gone! Of course I was playing the Monks! Meet my mates! None of them will live to see the end of this episode!" I get the cruelty, but damn, that was hard to watch.

At least the arc is over. I liked the idea of the Monks, but we had one episode too many. And they stuck with the monk theme after they won. Kinda hard to reconcile with the pyramids.

I hope we get much more of Missy before season's end. It's a shame Michelle Gomez is moving on. I mean, nobody can touch Roger Delgado, and "Evil Mary Poppins" comes off as a daft idea, but she makes it work so well. And it sucks that we'll never see Missy throw down with River.

[alrightokay]

1 hour ago, Avon.Blakes7 said:

Just watching it now and questioned my sanity; "where have I seen this plot before?" Instantly thought of the Silence and how they were supposedly "here all the time!" ;-( 

The episode also reminded me a lot of "The Last of the Time Lords" from S3, and when he introduced Missy as the "other Last of the Time Lords," I thought the Doctor was deliberately thinking of how the Master/Saxon, like the Monks, once took over the world.  And because "Lie of the Land" seemed to crib from past stories (plus 1984), it didn't really move me, unfortunately.  The acting is still fantastic--I love the chemistry Capaldi has with Mackie and with Gomez--but the villains and conflict in this trilogy just didn't create enough tension; the plot just sort of fizzled out. 

Edited June 4, 2017 by alrightokay

[Primetimer]

The Doctor and friends address politics, and the big lie.

View the full article

[Starchild]

I found that pretty anti-climactic. Maybe because the big finale was the Doctor telling us what was happening, rather than them being able to show us somehow. Though that would admittedly be pretty difficult because...Bill thinking about Mum broke the aliens and also kept the big powerful machine from killing her? Weak.

[AudienceofOne]

9 minutes ago, Starchild said:

I found that pretty anti-climactic. Maybe because the big finale was the Doctor telling us what was happening, rather than them being able to show us somehow. Though that would admittedly be pretty difficult because...Bill thinking about Mum broke the aliens and also kept the big powerful machine from killing her? Weak.

Well, her personal truth defeated the Big Lie. And as emotional and well-acted as that moment was, it falls over with the barest modicum of thought. This episode was about us enslaving ourselves to comfortable lies and breaking that apart with the truth. Except a) there was nothing comfortable about the Monks' reign and b) in the real world, our personal truths are the problem, not the solution. The fact that any moron can decide that their personal reality trumps the truth is the issue. Marry that with last week's 'we need saving from science' and once again we have a social message that is actively destructive.

I'm happy that Bill's comforting lie that she made up to make herself feel better about reality works for Bill. But the idea that it works for society as a whole? That's the core of the whole damn problem!

Basically, the overall message of this trilogy is that Fake News Is Bad Unless It's YOUR Fake News. I'm pretty sure all the fascists and fundamentalists the Doctor was randomly railing about would completely fucking agree.

[wayne67]

This trilogy was awful. That resolution was stupid. Oppressors don't run away, unless they're in danger of being mobbed and even then there's usually a bloody war or coup necessary. The Monks can see the future apparently and has advanced alien technology but a delusional imaginary friend defeats them.

As for Missy and her guilt. I don't buy it. The Doctor is supposedly the biggest pacifist but supposedly his body count is so high that the Executioners are scared of him but not of the Master who routinely kills people for the lols.

Anyone else find that Vault entirely impractical? No bed, no toilet, no books, no food and nothing indicating anything approaching an actual life. 

In the end the lesson is humans never learn from their mistakes, which isn't surprising as the Doctor and multiple alien species erase their presence from memories throughout the series. I guess all those people dead from thought crimes are just... collateral damage so that the doctor could get his eye sight back or something. 

While the acting may be better, the writing is still terribly pie in the sky, with very little foundation in reality or decent story telling. Reminds me too much of Yugioh and it's nonsensical theme of believing in the heart of the cards, which was just an excuse used while cheating. 

Maybe next season will be better. I think I'll just read the forums from now on and pick it back up whenever it improves (if it does).  

[Llywela]

Dear Steven Moffat: if you have no intention of following through on the claim that a particular action is absolutely and irrevocably fatal, here's a pro-tip - maybe don't claim that the thing is absolutely and irrevocably fatal in the first place.

I mean, sheesh. We saw this already when Clara jumped into the Doctor's time stream - so much hot air expended beforehand on how doing so would absolutely, definitely kill her, no get out clause and no hope, and then she did it anyway and it was played as this huge sacrifice...and then the Doctor jumped in after her and they both just walked out without a scratch, with no explanation of how they survived this thing that we'd been told was 100% fatal. Talk about an anti-climax. And now they've done it again here! So much hot air expended beforehand on how plugging a human brain into the Monk's device would be fatal, absolutely and irrevocably, because even the Doctor's brain wasn't strong enough to withstand that kind of power, and then Bill plugged herself in, and the Doctor bigged it up as this huge sacrifice...and then she was fine, and there was no explanation of how she survived this absolutely irrevocably fatal thing.

Also, Moffat really does have a thing about mothers, doesn't he?

After a strong start to the season, I thought this three-parter was really awful, trite nonsense that believes itself to be deep and meaningful. Also, I hate any storyline related to Missy, so having her play a part really doesn't help. Speaking of which, at the end when she was supposedly crying over all the people she's killed (and the Master once accidentally wiped out about a third of the universe, so, you know, she's been responsible for a hell of a lot of death), she said to the Doctor, "You never told me about this part," as if this is something he's been through himself, which - no, the Doctor has never been 'bad' and then turned good, and has never been a murderer, so no, this is not something he's been through and therefore is something he has no experience of, therefore obviously he couldn't have told her what to expect about the process of 'turning good', which - I don't believe it for a second, and I can't seriously believe I'm supposed to. Moffat has a thing about Missy, too, unfortunately.

[AmyVS]

I liked it as I was watching it, but now I'm thinking... yet another episode where the solution is thinking about love REALLY HARD.

[John Potts]

2 hours ago, wayne67 said:

Oppressors don't run away, unless they're in danger of being mobbed and even then there's usually a bloody war or coup necessary. The Monks can see the future apparently and has advanced alien technology but a delusional imaginary friend defeats them.

I agree: it's all too costless. Even if we can't have people actually dying ("Won't somebody think of the children!") we could have had Bill having to choose between (say) an alternate reality where (she believed) her mother was alive and "our" reality where her mother is most definitely dead. At least then there she really suffers from the consequences of her actions, even if the only consequences take place within her head.

It was definitely a weakness that the monk just left, because - yeah that's not what dictatorships do. Once they're in charge, it generally takes a lot of violence to get them out. Admittedly we did see one of them getting mobbed (though he escaped), but it's such a bad lesson to say, "Just say no!" to dictators is going to work. At least have London show damage from having had a humungous pyramid land in the middle of it or show the families of the executed people mourning their dead*.

* Admittedly, this would be really unfortunate timing in that  within hours of this episode's broadcast, there was a real attack in London where people actually died

[wayne67]

13 minutes ago, John Potts said:

I agree: it's all too costless. Even if we can't have people actually dying ("Won't somebody think of the children!") we could have had Bill having to choose between (say) an alternate reality where (she believed) her mother was alive and "our" reality where her mother is most definitely dead. At least then there she really suffers from the consequences of her actions, even if the only consequences take place within her head.

At the very least they could have shown some kind of impact. For instance the Doctor could have been shown in the college library dealing with the fact that for the Monk oppression to have worked, they would have destroyed or altered billions of history books to insert themselves in the timeline.

They could have shown the Monk's brainwashed troops suffering from some kind of regret for their involvement in the tyranny or the pulling down of all the weird statues. 

The Doctor said the stakes are getting higher but the truth is that the stakes have never been lower. Nothing is affected by a world wide invasion and occupation, it's all easily ignored even after 6 months of tyrannical rule by an alien species who are parasites? lawyers? Silence rip offs ? It's essentially a meaningless, easily forgotten event. 

One of the problems with the episodes is that the villains are so under developed, I have no idea what they wanted from the human race. What exactly do they need the human race/Earth for? One off, one episode villains have better motivations than these 3 episode villains. 

[Latverian Diplomat]

The thing about the big reset at the end is, it's going to happen sooner or later.

Future stories set in the UK of the present have to look like the UK of the present. Welcome to episodic television.

Remember the "Golden Age of Britain" ? That was scrapped because it couldn't stay in sync with our actual UK.

This is one reason I prefer episodes set elsewhere than present day or historical earth. Of course, one gets the flip side concession -- one off planets of the week a la Star Trek.

At least this was done in the same episode with a reasonable explanation, the Monks erased themselves. While that was very quick and very pat, I did like the image of the abandoned, wrecked statue that people just walked by without thinking about. It could even make a cameo in future episodes, though I doubt they will bother.

[LiveenLetLive]

A total mess IMO. Still loving Bill and Nardole though. Please, no more showing Capaldi's big white rictus smile!

[Llywela]

20 minutes ago, Latverian Diplomat said:

The thing about the big reset at the end is, it's going to happen sooner or later.

Future stories set in the UK of the present have to look like the UK of the present. Welcome to episodic television.

Remember the "Golden Age of Britain" ? That was scrapped because it couldn't stay in sync with our actual UK.

This is one reason I prefer episodes set elsewhere than present day or historical earth. Of course, one gets the flip side concession -- one off planets of the week a la Star Trek.

Or, you know, just tell stories set in the present day that don't have such far-reaching implications. The stakes can be high without more than a handful of people ever knowing anything about it - like last week with the crisis at the bio-lab. The trouble with the Doctor Who writers is that they want to have their cake and eat it, too - they want to throw out these huge grandiose scenarios (entire world enslaved!) but don't want to have to deal with the consequences, and it frustrates me because it's so avoidable, so very easily avoidable.

[ganesh]

8 hours ago, wayne67 said:

The Doctor said the stakes are getting higher but the truth is that the stakes have never been lower. Nothing is affected by a world wide invasion and occupation, it's all easily ignored even after 6 months of tyrannical rule by an alien species who are parasites? 

It never is when the entire planet was at stake. If this whole thing wasn't a simulation then it has to end with a reset button. So what? 

1 hour ago, Llywela said:

Or, you know, just tell stories set in the present day that don't have such far-reaching implications. The stakes can be high without more than a handful of people ever knowing anything about it - like last week with the crisis at the bio-lab.

Even if you want aliens, you have a great story like Pompeii where the Doctor has to set off the volcano. 

[Avon.Blakes7]

3 minutes ago, ganesh said:

It never is when the entire planet was at stake. If this whole thing wasn't a simulation then it has to end with a reset button. So what? 

Even if you want aliens, you have a great story like Pompeii where the Doctor has to set off the volcano. 

I can still hear Donna imploring the Doctor; "you can't just leave them!" Within the last couple seasons, I seem to remember they invoked Capaldi's image from that episode to make it seem it wasn't haphazard his last regeneration! Anyone? I just don't watch the episodes again and again like I did with Classic Who! They were more entertaining and you didn't have to think! Nu-Who is so complicated, I may never be able to take on the nuances of what happened because I don't watch them relentlessly to learn what the HELL is going on! The Time War is a lot more complicated now than during era of "The Keys To Time!" & "Genesis Of The Daleks!" The arcs with Moffet can go on for years; some less surprising than others! I think everyone knew that was River as the little girl earlier before shooting The Doctor in the astronaut suit! I turned 60 last month and it just isn't sinking as well as it used to! ;-)

[ganesh]

I wouldn't say they are complicated. More like needlessly convoluted. 

[Avon.Blakes7]

20 minutes ago, ganesh said:

I wouldn't say they are complicated. More like needlessly convoluted. 

I was trying to give Moffet the benefit of the doubt, but "convoluted" is how I describe Nu-Who to friends! lol!

[KirkB]

18 hours ago, Lokiberry said:

I'm not convinced that Missy is on the road to redemption. The Doctor would be foolish to believe that she's sincere and not playing him. Also, why did he describe the two of them as the last of the Time Lords? Did the memory wipe in Hell Bent make him forget that he found Gallifrey?

Officially, to the people at large who know about the Doctor and Gallifrey, he and Missy are supposed to be the only ones left. Nearly the entire universe is scared to death of the Time Lords, and for good reason. He doesn't want too many people to know they're still around. Besides which, don't forget about rule number 1.

Oh, and if Missy is NOT playing the Doctor, I'll be very surprised. Shes biding her time, though months of isolation probably really are giving the chance to think about everything she's done, she just doesn't CARE.

12 hours ago, wayne67 said:

Anyone else find that Vault entirely impractical? No bed, no toilet, no books, no food and nothing indicating anything approaching an actual life.

To be fair, the more stuff you give Missy, the more problems she could cause.

Overall I thought this episode was pretty good. Certainly better than Pyramid, but given how much of a mess that episode was overall I guess that's not a big accomplishment. I couldn't help seeing the monks as a lot like the Silence, what with their supposed long history with humanity, not to mention shooting electricity out of their hands, and like the Silence they were pretty nonsensical in the end and their defeat was easily dispatched. It's like Moffett has great ideas for stories but isn't always sure of how to end them.

[Avon.Blakes7]

13 minutes ago, KirkB said:

Officially, to the people at large who know about the Doctor and Gallifrey, he and Missy are supposed to be the only ones left. Nearly the entire universe is scared to death of the Time Lords, and for good reason. He doesn't want too many people to know they're still around. Besides which, don't forget about rule number 1.

Oh, and if Missy is NOT playing the Doctor, I'll be very surprised. Shes biding her time, though months of isolation probably really are giving the chance to think about everything she's done, she just doesn't CARE.

To be fair, the more stuff you give Missy, the more problems she could cause.

Overall I thought this episode was pretty good. Certainly better than Pyramid, but given how much of a mess that episode was overall I guess that's not a big accomplishment. I couldn't help seeing the monks as a lot like the Silence, what with their supposed long history with humanity, not to mention shooting electricity out of their hands, and like the Silence they were pretty nonsensical in the end and their defeat was easily dispatched. It's like Moffett has great ideas for stories but isn't always sure of how to end them.

I definitely got a "Slience vibe" and posted as such here and elsewhere! It's like they're running out of ideas and to keep the show going, they've given up and said "go with the formula; change the names & costumes, then be done with it!" 

[Bruinsfan]

18 hours ago, Lokiberry said:

I'm not convinced that Missy is on the road to redemption. The Doctor would be foolish to believe that she's sincere and not playing him. Also, why did he describe the two of them as the last of the Time Lords? Did the memory wipe in Hell Bent make him forget that he found Gallifrey?

The Time Lords moved Gallifrey 4+ billion years into the future to avoid things like resuming the Time War with the Daleks, and presumably aren't going to be traveling back to what's now their distant past to mess that up. From the perspective of anyone who doesn't have a TARDIS, the Doctor and the Mistress are the last of the Time Lords.

[Avon.Blakes7]

23 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

The Time Lords moved Gallifrey 4+ billion years into the future to avoid things like resuming the Time War with the Daleks, and presumably aren't going to be traveling back to what's now their distant past to mess that up. From the perspective of anyone who doesn't have a TARDIS, the Doctor and the Mistress are the last of the Time Lords.

You mean, be ready for "that moment" like the Doctor giving Davros regenerative energy so he could actually see things through his own eyes in "The Witch's Familiar?" lol! The Doctor is so jaded that even when it seems he's letting sentiment and compassion take him over, he's so JADED, he would be on guard if God appeared before him like Kirk in "ST: The Final Frontier!" ...

Edited June 4, 2017 by Avon.Blakes7

[Mabinogia]

11 hours ago, Llywela said:

After a strong start to the season, I thought this three-parter was really awful, trite nonsense that believes itself to be deep and meaningful

Moffatt is excellent at short stories, but he destroys any extended story. This was proof for me. This one episode would have worked better without the trilogy. What purpose did the first two episodes serve? I can barely remember them.

Sure the story was beyond stupid, but I so enjoy Twelve, Nardole and Bill. There is a great dynamic between the three of them. I love Nardole and Bill paired together. I love Twelve when he's having fun. That smile!

I despised the elaborate fake out that they pretended was to prove Bill was on the right team but was really just to fake out the audience. It worked, as I wondered if the Doctor really would regenerate. I almost wish that had been true because it might be interesting to see Bill deal with the Doctor after having shot him thinking she could be killing him.

I did like Bill's willingness to take responsibility for being the reason the Monks took over and deciding she had to be the one to end it. I got very misty at her goodbye scene with the Doctor. Bill has become my second favorite companion, after Donna. Despite the crappy storylines, I'm still loving this season.

[John Potts]

17 minutes ago, ganesh said:

It never is when the entire planet was at stake. If this whole thing wasn't a simulation then it has to end with a reset button.

So... don't put the entire planet at stake? You're not going to follow through with it or it will get undone, so it's inevitably anticlimatic. Either put it on a suspiciously Earth like planet where you really can kill everyone or make the stakes more personal. Take the classic Trek episode City on the Edge of Forever: while we know the Nazis aren't going to win World War II, the only way of preventing this is to allow Edith Keeler (Joan Collins) to die. Now realistically, we know there's only one way for it to play out, but at least there are real stakes for choosing the "right" outcome.

[Llywela]

14 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

Moffatt is excellent at short stories, but he destroys any extended story. This was proof for me. This one episode would have worked better without the trilogy. What purpose did the first two episodes serve? I can barely remember them.

Sure the story was beyond stupid, but I so enjoy Twelve, Nardole and Bill. There is a great dynamic between the three of them. I love Nardole and Bill paired together. I love Twelve when he's having fun. That smile!

I despised the elaborate fake out that they pretended was to prove Bill was on the right team but was really just to fake out the audience. It worked, as I wondered if the Doctor really would regenerate. I almost wish that had been true because it might be interesting to see Bill deal with the Doctor after having shot him thinking she could be killing him.

I did like Bill's willingness to take responsibility for being the reason the Monks took over and deciding she had to be the one to end it. I got very misty at her goodbye scene with the Doctor. Bill has become my second favorite companion, after Donna. Despite the crappy storylines, I'm still loving this season.

Yeah, the fake-out shooting was just cruel, and I do not buy the Doctor's explanation for why he thought it necessary to push Bill to that extreme (nor do I buy that he could have predicted her reacting that way, or that he needed such a reaction). I also can't see any reason whatsoever for him to waste regenerative energy on a fake non-regeneration when Bill doesn't even know that regeneration is a thing, so the whole thing was utterly meaningless to her - that was a conceit designed for the trailer rather than to make sense within the story.

I do really love Bill and her dynamic with the Doctor, and even Nardole has grown on me slightly. But my goodness, this three-parter was bad - and it didn't have to be.

Then again, I remarked to a friend on another forum a few weeks ago that those early episodes this season that I was enjoying so much still contained all the essential Moffat ingredients I've struggled with so much the last few seasons, they'd just been mixed up enough that the stories and character dynamics felt fresh despite that, so maybe I shouldn't be surprised that the essential Moffat-ness of the showrunning style should end up reasserting the status quo, just when I was enjoying the show again.

8 minutes ago, John Potts said:

So... don't put the entire planet at stake? You're not going to follow through with it or it will get undone, so it's inevitably anticlimatic. Either put it on a suspiciously Earth like planet where you really can kill everyone or make the stakes more personal. Take the classic Trek episode City on the Edge of Forever: while we know the Nazis aren't going to win World War II, the only way of preventing this is to allow Edith Keeler (Joan Collins) to die. Now realistically, we know there's only one way for it to play out, but at least there are real stakes for choosing the "right" outcome.

This, exactly. Or, you know, put the entire planet at stake, by all means, but don't make it so that the entire population of the world is aware of what's going on and directly impacted by it (labour camps, executions, etc). The fewer people know the truth, the less in the way of consequences will have to be dealt with - and while you might have to sacrifice a bit of childish melodrama by reining it in, you will gain immensely in genuine tension and drama by keeping it tight and intimate.

Moffat needs someone to keep him in check, I've always said that. He has such good ideas, but left unchecked they just spiral out of control. If he only had someone performing a sanity check on his ideas, his seasons would be truly amazing rather than the shiny but unsatisfying mess they've mostly been.

[Mabinogia]

1 minute ago, Llywela said:

Moffat needs someone to keep him in check, I've always said that. He has such good ideas, but left unchecked they just spiral out of control.

This times 1000! He's written some brilliant episodes, but as a show runner he just doesn't know when to pull back. This trilogy went on far too long and got far too convoluted. To the point that I barely remembered that the whole Pope showing up in Bill's bedroom was part of this arc, nor can I figure out why it had to be. The aliens who use simulations to practice taking over the world could have been one story arc. And the aliens who get consent and take over the planet could have been a different storyline. I don't get how they fit together as one story.

[Avon.Blakes7]

14 minutes ago, Llywela said:

...

Moffat needs someone to keep him in check, I've always said that. He has such good ideas, but left unchecked they just spiral out of control. If he only had someone performing a sanity check on his ideas, his seasons would be truly amazing rather than the shiny but unsatisfying mess they've mostly been.

That's what it is really, "spiraling out of control;" sorta like that Christmas special where it's a dream within a dream! lol!

Edited June 4, 2017 by Avon.Blakes7

[Llywela]

13 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

This times 1000! He's written some brilliant episodes, but as a show runner he just doesn't know when to pull back. This trilogy went on far too long and got far too convoluted. To the point that I barely remembered that the whole Pope showing up in Bill's bedroom was part of this arc, nor can I figure out why it had to be. The aliens who use simulations to practice taking over the world could have been one story arc. And the aliens who get consent and take over the planet could have been a different storyline. I don't get how they fit together as one story.

Yeah, the end result leaves me feeling that the Monks are incredibly hazily realised - and after three episodes, they really shouldn't be. But they didn't even get a real name for their species, or an explanation of why their spaceship is a pyramid, or why they like to go around in monk-like robes. Presumably they don't call themselves 'Monks'. Everything about what they do is designed to fit the requirements of the story in that moment, rather than having been worked out and defined beforehand. They can create an incredible simulation of the whole of human history, including, apparently, the personality and memories of every person in the world. They can heal the Doctor's blindness from the other side of the world. They can overwrite the memories of everyone in the world in a mere instant. But then the moment they hit a road bump, they gave up and ran away. There are no rules, no parameters. If they are so incredibly powerful, where have they been up till now? What did they actually want from Earth, other than to expend a huge amount of effort on conquering it and then maintaining that conquest just so people would worship them? It's all just so hazily defined.

No rules and no parameters is the hallmark of the Moffat era, really. Although the Davies era was also shoddy in the worldbuilding arena, in fairness. But I think Moffat's era in particular would have benefited enormously from having a very clear set of rules and parameters laid down up front, to which all storylines must adhere. Keep the storytelling honest and under control. The worldbuilding would be so much stronger as a result, and the credibility of the show wouldn't be shot to pieces all the time.

[ganesh]

I think they'd be fine if they just stayed away from 'sweeping epic total earth in peril' stories. 

[Llywela]

35 minutes ago, ganesh said:

I think they'd be fine if they just stayed away from 'sweeping epic total earth in peril' stories. 

well yeah, that too. But there has to be more to the monsters than just 'this would be cool' and 'let's just make it up as we go along', or it all just falls apart.

[Beatriceblake]

Dear Monks,

I have a deal for you. I will trade you my pure unadulterated consent to whatever if we can have a multipart Doctor Who episode that sticks the landing instead of teasing us with a load of interesting character moments and story beats and then veering back away from them all so someone's memories and the power of love can save the day.

Love,

B.

[Locutus]

If The Doctor could use regen energy to heal the bullet wounds, why couldn't he heal his eyes a few episodes ago?

[Llywela]

19 minutes ago, Locutus said:

If The Doctor could use regen energy to heal the bullet wounds, why couldn't he heal his eyes a few episodes ago?

There weren't any bullet wounds to heal. The guns were loaded with blanks; he was uninjured, faked the whole thing. Why he would waste regenerative energy on a completely unnecessary fake-out regeneration that was meaningless to Bill anyway, since she knows nothing whatsoever about regeneration, is another question entirely.

[FiveByFive]

Missy/The Master is clearly faking this. Of all of the random things that I've always hated about the Doctor is that in the end the Master/Missy always lives to fight another day because, IMHO, part of him still thinks she can change. At some point you have to realize that she can't! 

Also they expect us to believe the Monks just "ran away" when they can shoot lightning bolts from their hands? Sure, okay. That makes no sense -- unless they "saw" the future and knew without the control over the population they'd eventually be defeated.  That would make sense. Of course they didn't say that so it doesn't make sense. 

On 6/3/2017 at 5:01 PM, John Potts said:

And even if I do think the subjugation of mankind WAS her fault, I do applaud Bill for owning up to her mistake and offering to sacrifice herself for the planet (THAT's heroic) - I just wish TPTB didn't imply that sacrifice is entirely painless and everything will be alright because you acted in good faith/loved your mother/didn't really mean it.

I absolutely loved that:

• The Doctor made it clear that this was Bill's fault.
• Bill owned that this was her fault.
• She was willing to take out the Doctor when she thought he turned "bad."

I don't think she got off easily because:

• She actively tried to sacrifice herself. I mean, she still was willingly ready to die.
• They made her live without them for six months instead of informing her earlier while fighting the influence of the Monks.

I thought the constructed memory of her mom helping her save the world was sweet but I wasn't as moved by it as I thought I would be - probably because it didn't make any sense at all without some fanwanking. "Oh this memory, fake or not, is the most important memory to Bill because her mother means more to her than anything in the world and gives her strength!"  See, they didn't say that so ... yeah.

Finally my favorite Bill line: "Why do you have a woman locked in a vault? Because even I think that’s weird – and I’ve been attacked by a puddle.”  True Bill, very true! 

[smorbie]

59 minutes ago, FiveByFive said:

Finally my favorite Bill line: "Why do you have a woman locked in a vault? Because even I think that’s weird – and I’ve been attacked by a puddle.”  True Bill, very true

Best line of the show.  We need to start a thread of all these great lines.  I've been saving up.

[benteen]

Very good episode,  I enjoyed it.  I like seeing this carry out through several episodes.

Although he was faking it, I wish the Doctor could have given that speech to Clara about her screwing up.  She needed it more than anyone.  Though Clara likely wouldn't have accepted that and would have blamed The Doctor for it.

I get hoping for the best but if the Doctor truly is buying that Missy is remorseful, he's the dumbest person in the galaxy.

[DJG1122]

8 hours ago, smorbie said:

 

Best line of the show.  We need to start a thread of all these great lines.  I've been saving up.

Yes please. Does anyone know how? (I don't).

Missy: I've just been executed. Show some respect!

Edited June 5, 2017 by DJG1122

[peppergal]

2 hours ago, smorbie said:

Best line of the show.  We need to start a thread of all these great lines.  I've been saving up.

You mean like this one?

[SoothingDave]

Why didn't Bill ask Nardole where the Tardis is?  Wouldn't have made more sense (to her) to take the Tardis out to rescue the Doctor?

[smorbie]

1 hour ago, peppergal said:

You mean like this one?

Why, thank you!

[Mabinogia]

2 hours ago, SoothingDave said:

Why didn't Bill ask Nardole where the Tardis is?  Wouldn't have made more sense (to her) to take the Tardis out to rescue the Doctor?

They are not allowed to remember the Tardis when it would mess up whatever convoluted escape plan the writers have come up with during one of their pot induced brainstorming sessions.

[Avon.Blakes7]

3 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

They are not allowed to remember the Tardis when it would mess up whatever convoluted escape plan the writers have come up with during one of their pot induced brainstorming sessions.

The TARDIS was supposed to be symbiotic to the DOCTOR, now anyone can move the thing with the precision of a TIME LORD! [eye roll]

[Bruinsfan]

I can see River managing to since she was sort of a proto-Time Lord and was actually conceived in the TARDIS, as well as presumably receiving a lot of instruction from the Doctor over the years, but I think anyone else should be pretty much at its mercy once they start pushing buttons and pulling levers.

[hnygrl]

Weird. How can you like and not-like a show all at the same time? Weird. Really GREAT Character actors. Great. The chemistry between these three is phenomenal. But the plot. Oh sweet Jesus the plot. I was hoping this was a doctor-induced simulation and not real life. THAT would've been a really great ending. But "It was real but you were brainwashed and now you forgot?" Seriously? AGAIN???? Damn, the people of Earth have had their brains messed with so many times, I'm surprised we don't ALL have some kinda brain dysfunction!

That ending though. Sucked like a Big Black Hole.

And I still don't get the point of the "Bill Fake-out." WHY DID HE DO THAT???? Seriously. All he had to do was show up at her home and have this conversation and....*shrug*....ah well. It is what it is, and what it is, is mostly confusing and a dumb waste of plotline.

The Bill/Nardole/Doctor parts I give 8/10. The rest? 3/10. It was just so stupidly unnecessary.

[KirkB]

18 minutes ago, hnygrl said:

And I still don't get the point of the "Bill Fake-out." WHY DID HE DO THAT???? Seriously. All he had to do was show up at her home and have this conversation and....*shrug*....ah well. It is what it is, and what it is, is mostly confusing and a dumb waste of plotline.

I'm not sure it WAS a Bill fake-out. Because It's hard to trick someone with something they (as far as we are aware) don't know about and have no way of expecting. If he needed her to 'kill' him to determine if she was under the monks control or not he could have just fallen over or even just stood there. Bill may not even know if Time Lords can die from being shot, much less that regeneration is a thing. No, I think it was an audience fake-out. That was for our benefit.

Edited June 5, 2017 by KirkB