S03.E21: Heroes Rise: Destiny Calling / S03.E22: Heroes Rise: HeavyDirtySoul

[formerlyfreedom]

Two part season finale!

Quote

With the deadly virus spreading throughout the city, the search for the antidote continues, as Fish Mooney, The Riddler and Penguin reveal plans of their own. Bruce meets Ra's Al Ghul and completes his last task in order to fulfill his destiny, but realizes he can't let go of his past.

and

Quote

As the third season concludes, Gordon tries to win back Lee, and past alliances within Gotham City are broken, while new alliances are formed.

 

[Chaos Theory]

Not happy about Barbara's death but should have seen it coming.  She was in more scenes this episode then she has been in since season 1 which usually means death or further down the rabbit hole.  Hell even Butch gets reborn but Babs looks good and dead.

Stupid Jim ruining everything.  I actually liked Dark Jim and really enjoyed Dark Lee.  Would have liked to keep both of them around for awhile but stupid Jim had to ruin everything like always.

Penguin and Nygma were fun like always.  Going back back and forth trying to kill each other.

Bruce's story gets some major momentum. Bruce stabbing Alfred was shocking.  And the ending with him saving the family in the ally was a nice touch.

Stupid Jim.

i'm going to miss Barbara.

[SimoneS]

Good finale. I cried out when Bruce stabbed Alfred and then cheered when Bruce saved the family, stood on the roof and took off his mask. Yay, Batman Begins!

I felt sorry to lose Barbara, but I was thrilled that Tabitha survived. She is beautiful and there isn't enough ethnic/gender diversity on this show. Tabitha and Selena will make a good team. So Bruce is Cyrus Gold. Guess, he will be joining them soon.

I enjoyed James' transformation. He and Harvey are such a hilarious duo. I hope that we get more of them as a team next season.

I am so over the Oswald/Ngema feud. 

Edited June 6, 2017 by SimoneS

[redfish]

Butch is... Cyrus Gold? He's ....Solomon Grundy? Born on Monday.

Seriously, everyone in Gotham is an idiot. I'll give Penguin a bit of a pass since he figured out Nygma's OCD tendancy to follow patterns just like riddling he's a stickler to details.

Selena being trained by Tabitha. That's a good start to learn to become Catwoman.

Edited June 6, 2017 by redfish

[Spartan Girl]

Wow, this season was a mess.

We were promised Harley Quinn. Where was she?!

The only stuff I really liked was the Bruce/Alfred stuff and Bruce telling Selina off. Oh and Babs screaming "NYYYYYYYGMAAAAA!" That was gold.

And RASH al Gul? It's RAHs, you morons!

Edit: Ok, so it is "Rash". My bad, I only knew him by the Nolan movies.

So Fish is dead, Babs is dead, Nygma's on ice, Butch is on life support, Tabs and Selina are a team, and Lee gets cured and gets to waltz out of Gotham without owning up to the consequences of any of her shit (pre virus and post virus)?! Screw that. I can't anymore. I just can't.

So I'm done. But at least I got a look at Bruce in his rough draft of the cowl. It's more than Smallville gave us in 10 lousy seasons. I'm not gonna stick around to see it go more downhill. Peace out, y'all.

Edited June 6, 2017 by Spartan Girl

[Pyralis]

I was rolling my eyes at a lot of the dialogue and action sequences - this is from ... that is from ... but the last scene with Bruce was magic.

Edited June 6, 2017 by Pyralis

[Lantern7]

What happened to the clone? I lost track. If he didn't die, that's totally him at the end. I know that gross liberties are taken every week, but Bruce evolving a decade ahead of schedule? No.

I love this show. So much insane shit. Two hours' worth for a finale? So awesome. Did Fox really value 24 that much?

Hi, Selina. Bye, Selina. Hi, Ivy. Bye, Ivy. Where was Stumpy Barnes? Chiklis' name was in the credits. Will he come back? Not like the Court would have him cured.

Fish was the only confirmed fatality, right? We've gotten to the point where death is no big thing here. Barbara shooting Butch? Nope, she had to shoot him in that thick head, and he might be a hard-to-kill canon character. Tabitha electrocuting Barbara? Not convinced until she's buried. Bruce skewers Alfred, but he had Holy Grail water nearby. Ed getting frozen? Not buying him dead.

I hope Morena gets a better gig. She's good, but this Leslie was truly wrecked. Shit, Selina might be the most "together" female in the show. The show needs to improve on that.

Got spoiled on Ra's-as-in-rash. I'm hoping if he goes recurring, he'll be better than the putz on Arrow. If the show goes totally off the rails, they can say the whole universe was an elaborate Holodeck story for Dr. Bashir on DS9.

ETA: Weren't we supposed to get Leslie vs. Barbara? That would have been awesome.

[HoodlumSheep]

I don't even know where to begin. Sooooo many good things. I loved it. MY HEART. I love it when Gotham is just in total chaos.

Pros (almost everything):

• First of all, MY SON BUTCH IS STILL ALIVE THANK GOODNESS. If he had stayed dead i would have been so upset. But at least he would have gone out with that fabulous speech about Tabby
• EVERYTHING BRUCE/ALFRED
• Fish was a queen while she lasted.
• Tabby slaying Babs! Babs deserved to die, even though I know she'll probably be back.
• HARVEY LOVES JIM SO MUCH
• RA'S AL GHUL
• RA'S AL GHUL'S FABULOUS CLOAK
• ICEBURG ED
• iceburg lounge!!!!
• Mr. Freeze and Firefly as a duo.
• That tabby and cat scene!
• DOC HUGO STRANGE, FISH, EVERYBODY
• Even lee was pretty good this episode. Bye bye lee.
• THAT LAST SCENE WITH VIGILANTE BRUCE.

CONS:

• I knew Fish would eventually die for real, but she deserved to go out like a champ rather than stabbed by a virus jim. It was lackluster.
• Let's be real, Jim's character continues to be pretty corny. But the rest of the episodes managed to carry jim's situation pretty well.

Season 3 overall:

• Hit and miss really. Weak start, pretty good ending. Everything else in between was a bit of a jumble. Season 2 remains the strongest imo. 
• 3b>3a also imo

Current Hopes for season 4:

• Jim and Harvey returning to their old buddy cop shenanigans like in season 1. I'm not saying to return to the procedurals, but that they return to actually teaming up and working together. I've grown tired of Jim always running off on his own, so a return to form would be welcomed.
• I also want to see bruce start to form his "bruce wayne" rich playboy persona. It doesn't have to be anything too squicky, but i want to see him start throwing money around and flirting and other such bruce wayne-y things. Ya know? It's the one part of him they haven't focused on much (probably because of his age). 
• I want Bruce and Selina to stay seperated. Give them time to search for their identies and figure stuff out. And i don't mean them not interacting for 2 episodes and then running into each other again. I feel like their interactions should start becoming less frequent at this point. 

Edited June 6, 2017 by HoodlumSheep

[Danielg342]

If it weren't for the end, where the show clearly is trying to set things up for a fourth season that seems to actually promise some focus, I would have called this a masterful dud.

This was essentially Gotham going through two hours of every gangster show cliche you could think of, only with quasi-supernatural elements thrown in. There just wasn't any nuance, any depth, any...development. It was a complete and utter mess, just like this season, one where the writers seemed to have tried everything only for nothing to work.

Perhaps the good news is that this finale very much appeared to be cutting "dead weight" and seems to want to pare things down to a story about Bruce. Finally. I mean, this was supposed to be a Batman origin story, after all.

So maybe there's some good news amidst all the death and destruction this show wrought, in that they seem to be finally acknowledging that they had too many characters and needed to cut several out.

Pity Babs is gone. Erin Richards really proved her worth tonight.

Goodbye Fish. I'm guessing the dramatic sequence that was her death means it's permanent now.

Au revoir Butch. Though part me thinks you'll be back because the show sloppily shoehorned in the fact you're comic character Solomon Grundy.

Arrivaderci Ed...oh, who am I kidding? The Riddler won't bite it. Nygma's coming back. Though I could dig him being Iceburg's attraction for a couple of episodes.

The good news is that the show ended with the appearance that the "messing around" is over and the show will no longer try to focus on 500 different plots at once. This is now firmly Bruce's story, and hopefully they will stick to it.

Oh, and Cat being trained by Tabitha, who could be affectionately known as "Tabby" (thus making this a case of a "bigger cat" training the smaller one)? I'm looking forward to that.

The Bullock Meter

He had a lot of good zingers and a great heart to heart moment with Jim outside of the train...before going back to his boisterous self once it was all resolved at the train station.

Harvey Bullock truly is a phenomenal character and Donal Logue a phenomenal actor whose talents are being wasted on rote material and paint-by-the-numbers writing. There's just so much depth to explore and so much potential being missed with the character.

At the very least, make Bullock the snarky audience surrogate- Logue's comedic timing is perfect for that kind of character, and this show desperately needs someone to go "what in this crazy world...?" to all the crazy stuff this show comes up with. At least so that the show admits it doesn't take itself too seriously.

[Chaos Theory]

I hope at least Erin Richards gets a better gig.   A character that appears more then once or twice a season.  

[The Wild Sow]

28 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

And RASH al Gul? It's RAHs, you morons!

I thought so too, but I looked it up.

It's "Raysh." How to pronounce Ra's Al Ghul

 

And I knew Butch had a thick skull but surviving that shot?  Wow!

[Artsda]

I was so scared Alfred was going to die after he was stabbed. They special water Bruce should carry around for emergencies.

Fish is really dead this time? I never believe she's really dead.

Butch survived a bullet to the head and Nygma is frozen. 

Barbara was electrocuted, but is she dead-dead or in some type of electric coma? Watch her return too.

Lee was better evil and she chose to take the virus so why does she get to be cured and leave town? It wasn't done to her against her will.

Batman!

Edited June 6, 2017 by Artsda

[Allie56]

48 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I cried out when Bruce stabbed Alfred

I screamed so primally that my husband said "That's a murder scream. That's a 'call the police on the neighbors' scream." I could not believe he stabbed Alfred.

44 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Oh and Babs screaming "NYYYYYYYGMAAAAA!" That was gold.

AMAZING! I loved this so much. I love when characters get a little more stylized and comic-booky with their vocalizations. 

44 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

And RASH al Gul? It's RAHs, you morons!

Batman: TAS (which was usually pretty legit) and the Arkham games have pronounced it "Raysh." I had the opposite reaction to the pronunciation! I was so excited they were saying "Raysh." 

17 minutes ago, The Wild Sow said:

And I knew Butch had a thick skull but surviving that shot?  Wow!

In a show of pure insanity, this was the one thing pushed the bounds of my belief. A bullet straight to the brain! But it makes sense if he's going to be Solomon Grundy. 

I really do love this crazy trainwreck. So much happened this season! I love being able to sit back and watch the insanity unfold. Selina is becoming Catwoman! Baby Bruce is becoming Batman! Alfred is alive! Lee is gone! And Corey Michael Smith is now officially my favorite Riddler ever. 

[thuganomics85]

Tonight in unsurprising news: even in only a few minutes, Alexander Siddig does a better Ra's then Matt Nable ever did on Arrow.  He better show back up next season frequently.

A little bit of a bodycount, but we'll see if anyone stays dead.  Already know that Butch is actually Cyrus Gold, which will make him Solomon Grundy (of course it does.  Classic Gotham!), but I really wouldn't be surprised if Fish and/or Barbara aren't "officially" dead.  I could maybe see Fish if this is truly suppose to be Oswald's time to finally take center stage, but I feel like Barbara's was a bit random, and there are more story they can do with her, so I can see her magically surviving electrocution.  Maybe Ra's wants her resurrected for some reason, I don't know.

At least Bruce is back, even if he almost killed Alfred in the process.  With an added bonus of likely driving Selina off for good (and she will be getting mentorship from Tabitha of all people.  Oh, boy!)  And he is even beginning his vigilantism!

Figured Oswald would somehow come out ahead this go around, but obviously Nygma won't be frozen for long.  Still, score one for Oswald!  Him, Ivy, and Freeze (where did Firefly, go?) should be a fun group.

Lee leaves Gotham again, but I'm sure the door is open if Morena Baccarin does want to return.  Nice to see that Infected Lee apparently makes her tops much lower then normal.

Plenty of Bullock at least.  Donal Logue did a great job with Bullock's pleas to Jim at the train station.

Gotham will be moving to a new night next season, which usually isn't considered a good thing.  We shall see.

[paigow]

Tabitha would have thrown Babs in the river / harbour, not leave a body in their safehouse...so Babs is dead unless Tabitha is incredibly stupid...

Are there any musical acts left in Gotham to perform at The Iceberg Lounge?? Are those remaining so desperate that they play for Oswald The Hutt and his carbonite trophy???

[Proteus]

No way is Barbara dead. I'm surprised everyone here thinks ER is really off the show.

[Kostgard]

I enjoyed the hell out of the finale. Some storylines were a bit wobbly, others fantastic.

First, the "just okay" stuff: Jim. Naturally. Unfortunately, he's still pretty boring. I get the struggle with his dark side but...we already knew it was there. Last season he killed a dude and let another dude take the fall for it. This isn't news. But I'm glad Lee left town. That was the truly boring stuff. Let MB go do another role that will do her justice, and the door is open for her to return to Gotham. In the meantime, concentrate on the Jim/Harvey bromance. That is entertaining. I was far more moved by Harvey's speech at the train station than all the Jim/Lee stuff combined.

But Jim offered two small moments I really enjoyed - first, Oswald calling him out for the monster he is (and seriously, Oswald? You're just now seeing that?), and second, I loved the moment when Babs told Jim to "use your 'indoor growl' when making a super-secret call in the middle of the GCPD." Loved it not only because Babs called him out on his stupid growl voice, but after she said it, EVERYONE - Harvey, Oswald, Ed - turned to look at Jim like, "You dumbass." 

For me, the Ed/Oswald stuff was perfect. First, as an Oswald fan it was damn good to see him back on his game. It's been a while. But...he seriously didn't really have a plan in place that counted on Babs showing up? He really does have a lucky horseshoe up his ass. I mean, he's really good at spotting an opportunity and taking it, but he's also really damn lucky that pretty ladies always seem to come along and save his ass (directly or indirectly. He's really only alive because of Ivy, Fish and Babs). Things started out rough because yet another person he cared for died in his arms (thanks, Jim), but he definitely finished on top.

But with Ed and Oswald, I wasn't expecting any happy ending or some big emotional confrontation between them. I just wanted a situation where they will stay in each other's orbit because RLT and CMS are so damn good together. And boy, did we get that. Those two aren't done with each other, not by a long shot. If anything, this episode showed how obsessed/wrapped up in each other they are. And Ed may be the genius, but Oswald knows Ed, and I'm glad he called out how false/fragile Ed's Riddler persona is. And that killing Oswald was really more of a compulsion to finish what he started. Oswald didn't kill him, probably never had any intention of killing him, and would not be surprised if he thaws Ed by episode three. Remember when he made the deal with Freeze, he said he would fund his research if Freeze joined his army. He's got an out built right in if he decides to give Ed a second chance. This show loves repeating themes, and we got Fish forgiving Oswald for trying to kill her, and she wanted to work with him again. Wouldn't be surprised if the theme gets repeated with Oswald and Ed.

Alfred and Bruce broke my heart. I'm glad Bruce is finally back to himself. I was a little worried about them moving to proto-Batman so quickly, but honestly...the show needs an interesting hero, and Jim Gordon ain't it. The villains are killing it, the heroes, not so much. Need to balance the scales a bit. Maybe baby Batman can do that.

Finally, I'm glad Butch is still kinda/sorta alive (and I guess Solomon Grundy?). And I don't believe that Babs is dead. She'll be the "surprise" survivor next season.

Edited June 6, 2017 by Kostgard

[JyDanzig]

How did they let a scene between Dark Lee and Crazy Barbara get away from them?  That's a pairing that could have carried a half-season of story, and they don't even get ONE SCENE?

On the whole I thought this was a sloppily written mess, like most of the season, but I am somewhat interested to see who makes it back next year.  Lee, Barbara, Hatter, Barnes, and Lucius all feel like they could be on the chopping block.

It's hard to tell in this universe of constant cop-out deaths, but Barbara's death felt like it might really stick.  Which would be such a mistake, she's the one thing on this show that never disappoints, I always love a Barbara scene.

Now that there is an antidote that gives everyone a free pass for their virus actions, does Barnes get returned to normal and put back in the captain's office?  Though my actual prediction is that we'll never see or hear from Barnes again.

I loved how Lee's letter referred to her as "getting infected", like it just happened.  Just glide right past the fact that she injected herself!  No one focus on that part, move along!

[Proteus]

If Barbara is really dead then I'm done. She's the only real reason why I still watch.

[Lantern7]

8 minutes ago, JyDanzig said:

How did they let a scene between Dark Lee and Crazy Barbara get away from them?  That's a pairing that could have carried a half-season of story, and they don't even get ONE SCENE?

Now that there is an antidote that gives everyone a free pass for their virus actions, does Barnes get returned to normal and put back in the captain's office?  Though my actual prediction is that we'll never see or hear from Barnes again.

1. "Awwww, poor Lee. You had to infect yourself to go insane!" "Why are you here? Don't you have boots to loot during the riot?"

2. Barnes will be back. The twist is that he'll have Butch's apparatus to replace his lost hand.

Also forgot about my first big laugh of the episode: Hugo Strange running into Fish. "Oh, no." The way BD Wong delivered that line? Sublime.

[immortalfrieza]

4 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

At the very least, make Bullock the snarky audience surrogate- Logue's comedic timing is perfect for that kind of character, and this show desperately needs someone to go "what in this crazy world...?" to all the crazy stuff this show comes up with. At least so that the show admits it doesn't take itself too seriously.

Huh? Isn't Bullock the snarky audience surrogate already? Half of Bullock's dialog is snarking about how completely nuts Gotham is and the other half is snarking about how nuts his partner is.

39 minutes ago, Kostgard said:

The villains are killing it, the heroes, not so much.

I just couldn't help but laugh when I saw this, because this exact phrase could easily be a tagline for the entire Batman mythos. It's not like there haven't been great stories where Batman and Co have been interesting and entertaining, but it's few and far between. On the whole it's really the villains who carry any given story, "a hero is only as good as their villain" is a saying that Batman takes much too literally

Edited June 6, 2017 by immortalfrieza

[scarynikki12]

3 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

With an added bonus of likely driving Selina off for good

They'll never fully drive each other away.  They have decades of this dance, with and without the masks, ahead of them and they'll never stop. 

Man, I knew Siddig would be great casting and he so is.  I can't wait to see more of Ra's next season.  Maybe we'll get a glimpse of Talia as well?

[paigow]

The League of Shadows / Assassins has a permanent office in a city they destroy every century? Then why did Ras Ar-lo need to be absent from Gotham so frequently? 

[Bobbin]

23 minutes ago, immortalfrieza said:

It's not like there haven't been great stories where Batman and Co have been interesting and entertaining, but it's few and far between. On the whole it's really the villains who carry any given story, "a hero is only as good as their villain" is a saying that Batman takes much too literally

Exactly so. Batman has always been as much about the colorful, quirky villains as about Bruce Wayne and his alter ego. I really like that despite all that Wayne Industries has to offer, there haven't been any distracting "toys" (aside from the freeze ray), that everything has been character driven.

So the Batman has arisen and has set his course. Like Spiderman, is Bruce supposed to be just 16 as is David Mazouz? I think it's a little early yet for him to suddenly put on the cape and cowl, especially since he doesn't have any superpowers like Spidey. " So Gotham is now under the protection of a teenaged Dark Knight. The next season should be v e r y interesting.

Aside:   I thought the coolest scene in the entire Spiderman franchise was in Spidey 2 when he was injured on the el train and the passengers took Peter's mask off and discovered that he was just a teenager and not Jamison's "criminal mastermind.

[HoodlumSheep]

4 hours ago, Proteus said:

No way is Barbara dead. I'm surprised everyone here thinks ER is really off the show.

Yeah, she's totally not dead.

I've been thinking about Jim, and besides wanting him and harvey to return to buddy cop antics, I'd be happy if Jim just played a regular cop/detective role in season 4. No lone wolf act (he's had enough of that), no love interest drama...just him and harvey being besties and reacting to all the villain chaos and trying to keep gotham from falling into shambles. Like in season 1. Just do your job and let the villains and bby bat carry the show while you just roll your eyes and make sassy, witty and exasperated comments while trying to do your job.

That's honestly all I need from you at this point, Jim.

Edited June 6, 2017 by HoodlumSheep

[Danielg342]

3 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

Huh? Isn't Bullock the snarky audience surrogate already? Half of Bullock's dialog is snarking about how completely nuts Gotham is and the other half is snarking about how nuts his partner is.

I'm thinking that we could use more than a line or two every night. I agree that's his role- it's just he's not being used often enough.

[Chaos Theory]

If you love a good bromance then you can't do better then this show.  Jim/Bullock,  Nygma/Penguin  and Alfred/Bruce were all done really well.

if you like a good female character then this isn't really the show for you.  Barbara and Fish are probably dead and Lee is out of town for who knows how long.

Butch and Alfred got "murdered" but are both back though.   Kinda sorta in Butch's case.

Edited June 6, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[Danielg342]

26 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

if you like a good female character then this isn't really the show for you.  Barbara and Fish are probably dead and Lee is out of town for who knows how long.

I hate to say it, but my guess is that Bruno Heller initially conceived this as a male-centric show only for executives to tell him he needs female characters. Which is probably why the show doesn't develop them properly- because the show never wanted them in the first place.

[Kathemy]

I'll get back with more but for now I have to say this must be the worst edited episodes of Gotham I've ever seen. 

[JyDanzig]

13 hours ago, Proteus said:

No way is Barbara dead. I'm surprised everyone here thinks ER is really off the show.

 

9 hours ago, HoodlumSheep said:

Yeah, she's totally not dead.

There's two competing imperatives at war in my mind.

1. In Gotham, death is almost always dramatically pointless and quickly reversed.  If the death seems impossible to explain away, they just won't try, the person will just be alive again.  This is a show that has no trouble repeatedly and directly lying to it's audience.

2. Of all the possible ways a story might go, the writers will almost always pick the worst and least interesting option.  Killing the show's most consistently entertaining character would certainly fit the bill.

Is there an electricity-based villain from the comics she could be now?  That could be literally the next scene, Barbara just getting up off the floor and finding she can now zap things.  It was a magical electrocution in some way they will make no attempt to explain.

Edited June 6, 2017 by JyDanzig

[Chaos Theory]

Electro shock wouldn't hurt in Barbar's case either.   Also is Jerome dead this week?   If he isn't Babs could ya know wake up after the shock of her life......

[Rascotes]

I keep hearing that this show doesn't develop female characters but Selena is a well rounded, well developed and interesting character.  She's arguably the female lead of the show.  This has been the case since the beginning of the series.

I think what you're seeing is a combination of the show unwisely overemphasizing Jim and two other actors (Nygma and Penguin) performing way above expectations.  Added to that is the fact that show simply has too many character in play and a lot of characters that deserve more attention aren't getting it.  Consider Harvey, for instance.  There is a difference between a show making poor decisions on where to focus its attentions and having some anti female agenda.  

As to the finale, I found it to be incredibly uneven.  There were some interesting moments but on the whole I found myself wondering where the clone was, how Butch could possibly survive being shot directly in the forehead and a host of other questions.  I'm really hoping next season becomes more about the emergence of Bruce as the Dark Knight, Selena as the Catwoman and the focus becoming more their origin stories than awkward Jim Gordon misadventures in romance.

As a final note, I was so looking forward to the Harley Quinn we were promised and it bugs me that nothing came of it.  Very lame.

[Bobbin]

27 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I have no problem with the feud as long as it was leading somewhere.  The problem is that I don't think the writers are willing to pull the trigger when it comes to killing one of those two villains off.  If neither was going to die, what is the point of a feud to the death?  

The iconic Penguin, Riddler, et al, have to live in order to be the arch nemeses of the adult Batman and Commissioner Jim Gordon to maintain the mythos.

Good guys turned irredeemably bad is the backstory of most of the Batman villains. Good people die noble deaths, baddies repeatedly end up in Arkham to wreak havoc another day.

[scarynikki12]

Right now, I'm on the side of Barbara is dead and not coming back because she isn't necessary to the Batverse.  Yes, Babs Gordon is usually Jim's daughter and named for her mother but there are versions where she's his niece.  The key with Babs is that she's related to Jim, so that leaves Barbara vulnerable.  Since less and less effort has been made to keep Jim and Barbara in the same orbit, and therefore laying groundwork for Babs' conception, since he moved on to Lee, I'm thinking any reference to Babs will probably be a visual without saying her name or making her the niece.  I did think, back in season 2, that we would see Barbara impregnate herself with Jim's baby somehow and, when she kidnapped him, I was sure it would be then.  But they didn't go there.  Then I thought that Lee's pregnancy would result in a daughter who Barbara kidnaps, names after herself, and doesn't get rescued until she's too old to change the name.  But neither happened and now Barbara's dead. 

Now, all that said, if they do bring Barbara back, I expect they might go the Butch route and reveal that she's going to be a lesser, but known (to comic readers) rogue.  That would be a way to guarantee her longevity on the show. 

[Kathemy]

Maybe this should be posted in the Media thread but relevant to the episode, Tv Line has apparently been informed somehow that Barbara is not supposed to be Harley Quinn. Prompting, exactly who the hell is she? The girl in the alley that Bruce saves at the end?!

http://tvline.com/2017/06/05/gotham-recap-season-3-finale-bruce-kills-alfred-solomon-grundy/

[Traveller519]

That's at least the second major crime wave Gotham has endured this year after Jerome's black-out, and more if you consider the "Monster Escape," Tetch hypnotizing ever fifth citizen, and more. Why does anyone still live here again? All the power to you friends.

I liked that the show embraced the crazy, but this season just felt too off the rails. The scheduling didn't help either, I was probably 3 weeks past my "winter TV season" watching enthusiasm, and the two hour finale was big. Like most shows, Gotham would benefit greatly if it were a shorter season, or given its cast of characters if it could do an episode without any Jim. 

I'm feeling a little torn on where to go from here. Obviously the show had to evolve, but like others have said, it seems too early for Bruce to be full fledged Batman, and yet each of Batman's villains is getting rushed to development. A big part of the Batman mythos is that the villains' craziness and flare for the dramatic is drawn out of the fact that Batman himself is present in Gotham, and that kind of hero draws out these villains. I liked crime lord Barbara (and whomever her daily hairstylist was doing that great work) but I'm not sure I'm ready for even crazier Barbara down the road to Harley Quinn. I liked angsty and snarky Selena (at least when dealing with the adults), I'm not sure I want leather jump-suitted complete with Cat-cleavage Catwoman out of this show.

So long as Harvey's there to keep things grounded, the production value stays high, and the show continues to kill it with the casting (B.D. Wong; Alexander Siddig, Michael Chiklis) I'll have reason to keep tuning in. I just hope they gather some focus.

[Chaos Theory]

38 minutes ago, Rascotes said:

I keep hearing that this show doesn't develop female characters but Selena is a well rounded, well developed and interesting character.  She's arguably the female lead of the show.  This has been the case since the beginning of the series.

I think what you're seeing is a combination of the show unwisely overemphasizing Jim and two other actors (Nygma and Penguin) performing way above expectations.  Added to that is the fact that show simply has too many character in play and a lot of characters that deserve more attention aren't getting it.  Consider Harvey, for instance.  There is a difference between a show making poor decisions on where to focus its attentions and having some anti female agenda.  

So the show has one well developed female character.

Other then that it has Tabitha and Ivy (And you can possibly add Lee who will most likely be back at some point.).  Both Tabitha and Ivy have room for development but as of right now they are purely sidekicks.  Neither have been developed at all.  Oh and Firefly who was there just....there.

Do you want to count the men and their development?  

[Winter Rose]

I swear Lee is the boy who cried wolf with all the times she's "leaving Gotham." Ugh. I wish her showdown with Barbara had actually happened but with Barbara winning. Speaking of Barbara, I hope they find a way to bring her back. She completely turned around into being one of the best characters, but hardly used, so it would be a shame to see all that potential wasted. They seem to already be bringing Butch back, they should with Barbara too.

Penguin and the Riddler are so much better as enemies. I think being forced together like they were to its toll on both of them as characters. And since they're both too big of villains to die, the singular focus from a partnership doomed to fail to trying to destroy each other was going to get old fast.

Penguin and Fish's final scene was great though. I do wonder if in this instance that's it for Fish. She seemed kind of done with dying then being brought back.

Bruce and Alfred were wonderful as ever. I was surprised Ra's was only there for such a short time but there's more to come, I'm sure. Fake Bruce is also still out there.

And Harvey's always a delight.

Edited June 6, 2017 by Winter Rose

[Rascotes]

1 minute ago, Chaos Theory said:

So the show has one well developed female character.

Other then that it has Tabitha and Ivy (And you can possibly add Lee who will most likely be back at some point.).  Both Tabitha and Ivy have room for development but as of right now they are purely sidekicks.  Neither have been developed at all.  Oh and Firefly who was there just....there.

Do you want to count the men and their development?  

Sure, I don't mind doing that.  Penguin, Nygma and Gordon.  Taking a closer look at the three, Penguin and Gordon are the two that seemed to have been planned from the start for primary use.  Nygma demanded more screen time by simply being awesome and universally regarded.  By the way, for all the screen time Gordon gets, I don't know that I'd call him a deep or terribly interesting character.

To address a few of the other male characters:

Bruce:  You may think he's well developed but honestly I don't yet see it.  The first few seasons he more of a foreshadowing character than anyone that actually did anything.  The actor is good and he enhances most scenes he is in but realistically there hasn't been a heavy focus on him.  Hell, he's disappeared for multiple episodes several times and is only just now beginning to show signs of activity where he isn't dependent on Alfred, Gordon or even Selena for protection.

Butch:  Please.

Alfred:  A very good character but not one that is any more deeply explored than any of the female characters.

Lucius Fox:  I wish they'd used him more, but he's pretty much just background.

Harvey:  Snark.  More snark.  And... more snark.  What happened to that feisty Irish girl he was dating?

Mister Freeze:  He gets as much screen time as Firefly does, and is about as interesting as a character.  Both have been done an injustice.

 

As to the females, you didn't mention Fish.  She's been involved in the usurping of a crimelord, has been a crimelord, has died several times, been given powers and is treated as a strange motherfigure to Oswald.  You may not like the character but arguing that she wasn't developed doesn't really fly.  As to Barbara, she's arguably made the character that's made the most drastic change on this show.  That is serious development.  The audience may not always like the decisions made but that character has seen serious movement.

[HoodlumSheep]

7 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

I'm thinking that we could use more than a line or two every night. I agree that's his role- it's just he's not being used often enough.

Yes, more Harvey would be good. Preferrably in a way that shows how smart of a cookie he can be, because he can be pretty intelligent when he puts in the effort (the episode when babs goes crazy bridezilla comes to mind--harvey was able to deduce where gordon was taken).

[Chaos Theory]

I am not counting Fish or Barbara because they are both probably dead.  For good dead.  And no or dies on this show.  

To my knowledge there have been three major character deaths.  The Captain lady before Barnes,  Fish and Barbara.  All the other deaths are story dictates like Galivan  and even he died twice.  Jerome keeps coming back because well he's probs the joker.   

Yes Fish has had her share of deaths but this one looks permanent.  If too many people that Jim murders comes back to life that darkness he is supposed to have gets waterd down a lot.  Fish staying dead adds weight to his angst.  

[Dame sans merci]

1 hour ago, Kathemy said:

Maybe this should be posted in the Media thread but relevant to the episode, Tv Line has apparently been informed somehow that Barbara is not supposed to be Harley Quinn. Prompting, exactly who the hell is she? The girl in the alley that Bruce saves at the end?!

http://tvline.com/2017/06/05/gotham-recap-season-3-finale-bruce-kills-alfred-solomon-grundy/

The pertinent bit in that for me is 'nor are there any plans at this time for HQ to surface on the TV series', which suggests...they changed their mind about the character? Curious given they told us she'd be appearing only a few weeks ago.

[Rascotes]

I'm not sure that the fact that a character died takes away from the reality that they were developed while they were in play.  As an example, look at the old Buffy series.  A number of characters died (Tara, for instance) but they were well developed regardless.  Maybe we are using a different definition of developed?  To me, it means the overall arc of the character, how much change they went through and how much they impacted the plot.  By that definition I think both Babs and Fish qualify whether their arcs are finished or not.

To be clear, I am not saying that Gotham can't do better by it's female characters.  I think they can do better by characters of both genders.  I simply don't agree that the showrunners somehow have it out for or are resistant to the idea of a well rounded female.  I haven't gotten that sense at all.

[Kostgard]

Huh. The reversal on Harley is weird. I wonder if someone at DC decided last minute, "Nope. We're keeping that character for the movies. Gotham can't have it." Or maybe they looked around and thought, "Wow. This cast is already pretty crowded. Maybe we shouldn't bring on another major villain when we hardly know what to do with half the characters we currently have." I'm sure Harley was meant to be Babs, and I hope this change doesn't mean she's off the show. She's still a character with potential.

[apgold1]

So much going on in the 2 part finale but here are some random thoughts:

I had to wonder - did they wind up curing Barnes or was he one of the 10% who couldn't be cured?

Bye, Lee - don't let the Metro North train door hit you on the way out.  Can we get a better love interest for Jim who isn't Lee?  

Speaking of love, Bruce and Alfred were heartwarming.  Although he was dead for a few minutes, we have to remember that in the future, Alfred is alive and well.  

I enjoy Penguin and the Riddler's dance of death and have to wonder how long he'll remain frozen.  Won't really miss Fish - but I think she's really gone.

I don't want to see Tetch and his rhymes anymore, I found him to be the most annoying of this season's villains.

Harvey remains one of my favorite characters  I remember when Donal Logue used to do those "Jimmy the Cabdriver" skits on MTV back in the early 90s and hung out with Greg Dulli from the Afghan Wigs.

[HoodlumSheep]

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

So the show has one well developed female character.

Other then that it has Tabitha and Ivy (And you can possibly add Lee who will most likely be back at some point.).  Both Tabitha and Ivy have room for development but as of right now they are purely sidekicks.  Neither have been developed at all.  Oh and Firefly who was there just....there.

Do you want to count the men and their development?  

Gotham ladies i consider well-done: Former Commissioner Essen (dead), raptorhand girl (1 episode, dead), alice tetch (2?3? episodes...dead). Mama Cobblepot, bless her soul, was my favorite female character until she got murdered. :( i don't care if she just had one role (supporting oswald), she was wonderful. Selina. My only complaint about her is the constant 'friends w/bruce for 2 episodes--argument--not friends with bruce for 2 episodes, repeat' cycle she's been sucked into. 

Silver St. Cloud was also pretty decent imo, but i don't know if we'll ever see her again. 

And I agree with @Rascotes about Babs being pretty well-developed. Fish was also decently done.

I do wish Tabby would get some development. She needs it the most out of the female characters. End the sidekick nonsense please. She was pretty awesome in season 2, despite her playing second fiddle to her brother. But at least she was kicking butt and accomplishing necessary murders for the good of the team. I still remember that stiletto through the throat. Season 3 she just mainly sat around and made more threats than actually slaying. All bark no bite. That's why I'm glad she murdered queen babs.

They should pair up tabby and cat in season 4 for a while. She can be her mentor-figure. That way she could take the lead for a bit. 

Edited June 6, 2017 by HoodlumSheep

[Danielg342]

33 minutes ago, Rascotes said:

-snip-

First of all, I wouldn't say this show is anti-female...just that it's male-centric and that they put more thought into male characters than they do with the female ones. The existence of several poorly-drawn male characters does not change that.

Bruno Heller has admitted in an interview that the writers did not initially know what to do with Barbara until she impressed them during the Ogre arc, and, even then, she hasn't exactly been used all that much. Fish largely served either Falcone's arc or Oswald's arc, and the only time she had her own arc, it was narratively pointless. The only time Lee drove a story was in "Pretty Hate Machine", but even then, she was more of a participant in a larger narrative.

As for Selina...well, I could invoke "Lolita" as a possible explanation for why the writers gave her a lot of screen time. Squicky, I know, but I can't help but consider the possibility. It's bolstered by the fact she spent much of her earlier storyline urging Bruce to kiss her. Not abnormal, so to speak...just odd.

Still, Selina didn't start getting more focus until Bruce did- midway through S1- after, perhaps, the producers realized how good Camren Bicondova and David Mazouz were, especially together. After that, though, the only story the two had was to zigzag in and out of a relationship...not exactly development.

(I know that Episode Two was titled "Selina Kyle" but she wasn't really the focus of it then)

17 minutes ago, HoodlumSheep said:

Yes, more Harvey would be good. Preferrably in a way that shows how smart of a cookie he can be, because he can be pretty intelligent when he puts in the effort (the episode when babs goes crazy bridezilla comes to mind--harvey was able to deduce where gordon was taken).

I forgot to mention Harvey's astuteness. I miss that, probably the most. I know he was never a booksmart kind of guy, but Harvey had that underlining, intuitive smarts that made him such a great detective and so much more than your average curmudgeon.

4 minutes ago, Blackcanary said:

The pertinent bit in that for me is 'nor are there any plans at this time for HQ to surface on the TV series', which suggests...they changed their mind about the character? Curious given they told us she'd be appearing only a few weeks ago.

Considering this show couldn't resist aging up Ivy just to bring in "sexy Poison Ivy", I'll only believe that Harley Quinn isn't showing up if the show ends and she's still not there.

Quinn might be the most popular DC female character- if not the most popular DC character- right now, no way this show is missing that boat.

[Kathemy]

I'm not a fan of Selina ganging up with Tabitha, as much as she needs to "become Catwoman" or not. Selina doesn't need another teacher in villainy, she needs someone to teach her the "finer points of society" and Tabitha pretty much isn't it. Also it would be strange if Penguin were to forgive Tabs, so if she and Cat teams up she'll pretty much have to go on the run. That is, unless they're shaping up season four to be a war between those two factions, in case Tabs and Cat are badly outgunned and which would feel pretty much overdone at this point.

[HoodlumSheep]

I'm awaiting the episodes where Ozzy gets his monocle and top hat. At least one of them, please. Let it happen in season 4.

On second thought, go with the top hat. I don't think I could take Ozzy seriously in scenes if he were wearing a monocle.

It'd also be cool to see Ed move on to other adversaries besides Penguin when he gets unfrozen. I thought his scenes with Lucius were great, so if the Riddler gives the gcpd any trouble, I hope Lucius continues to take an active role in those cases.

With the cure for the virus, does this mean Barnes will be cured or will he stay the executioner?

Edited June 6, 2017 by HoodlumSheep

[Kathemy]

Doux Reviews: Destiny Calling : HeavyDirtySoul