Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Lady Iris]

Wasn't there a lot of hubbub that Dany was going to get pregnant? Was that speculation or spoiler?

[absnow54]

1 minute ago, Lady Iris said:

Wasn't there a lot of hubbub that Dany was going to get pregnant? Was that speculation or spoiler?

It was pretty heavily foreshadowed throughout season 7. Tyrion questioned who would be her heir if she couldn't produce children, Dany told Jon that a witch told her she'd never have a living child, which he questioned, and she stated that the dragons were the only children she'd ever have. Given what a clusterfuck this season has been, I wonder if D&D just sowed as many plot points as possible, so that when they finally landed on something, they could be like "See! This is what we were planning the whole time!"

[Chiny11]

7 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

Wasn't there a lot of hubbub that Dany was going to get pregnant? Was that speculation or spoiler?

That was mostly speculation based on what seemed to be 'hints' dropped last season.

But with Dany going crazy on the basis of "bell ringing" and being stabbed to death by Jon, I don't think there is any pregnancy in her future.🤷‍♀️

[SeanC]

24 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I think the idea is ending the institution of an absolute monarchy. 

But there isn’t anything suggesting that happens either.

[rmontro]

4 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Rang the bells?

That's perfect!  I'll probably start using it, in two weeks.

[Minneapple]

I'm beginning to wonder if maybe Friki's Tyrion trial spoiler is right after all. We had a mention of Dorne in the last episode, and Friki's spoiler notes that there is a possible Dornish character at the trial.

[BadAssRobinArryn]

4 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

I'm beginning to wonder if maybe Friki's Tyrion trial spoiler is right after all. We had a mention of Dorne in the last episode, and Friki's spoiler notes that there is a possible Dornish character at the trial.

It is possible. All of the characters he mentioned are still alive. The biggest point against this leak is that Grey Worm is supposed to be there and siding with the Starks.

[BitterApple]

45 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

Given what a clusterfuck this season has been, I wonder if D&D just sowed as many plot points as possible, so that when they finally landed on something, they could be like "See! This is what we were planning the whole time!"

Maybe D&D forgot, just like Dany forgot about Euron's fleet (i.e., the same fleet Jon talked about demolishing two scenes earlier).

At this point, the Starbucks cup could take the Throne and I'd find it a more satisfying ending than the mess they have planned.

[domina89]

What I don't understand is why D & D didn't include all the Dany prophecy stuff from the books, especially from The House of the Undying, if they knew (presumably) she was going to go crazy at the end.  They could have sprinkled that here and there and really emphasized how she was buying into it and possibly becoming more and more paranoid with each season.  It could have been done subtly.  We know enough about the Targs and their history with prophecy to make that a much more believable path to her insanity than the one they chose to take.

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, domina89 said:

What I don't understand is why D & D didn't include all the Dany prophecy stuff from the books, especially from The House of the Undying, if they knew (presumably) she was going to go crazy at the end.  They could have sprinkled that here and there and really emphasized how she was buying into it and possibly becoming more and more paranoid with each season.  It could have been done subtly.  We know enough about the Targs and their history with prophecy to make that a much more believable path to her insanity than the one they chose to take.

Well the "WE" part is limiting, the GA wouldn't catch those, hell I saw BR here miss the map room scene.

They also said prior they wanted to limit magic and prophesy to minimal.

For me they sprinkled enough through all 8 seasons to give a hint, I mean in S 1 what normal person walks into a fire unless full belief in something , like Buddhist Monks .

Dani had no belief then it was a dream or voices in her head.

[rmontro]

4 hours ago, galaxygirl76 said:

Did anyone catch in that last leak spec that Eurons new hostage wears a black cap/hood or something and they think it may be Daario? 

I didn't catch that, but it wouldn't surprise me.  One more thing to take away from Dany and drive her over the edge.  On the other hand, if there's a hostage, Tyrion was awfully close to KL's walls, he would have been easy to grab.

Is it too much to hope for something like a moment of lucidity where Dany asks Jon to kill her?  I know it's a bit of a cliche, but it would give her some semblence of going out on her own terms, and be somewhat heroic.  Or maybe a post-death scene of her reunited with Drogo?  Just something to take the edge off.

I read a comment on reddit that made a lot of sense, I thought.  They said that in the earlier seasons, when something bad happened, they got mad at the characters.  Like when Lady was killed, they got mad at Cersei.  But now when something bad happens, they get mad at the writers.  

I thought that was so true, and is a big indication of the bad writing.

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, rmontro said:

I didn't catch that, but it wouldn't surprise me.  One more thing to take away from Dany and drive her over the edge.  On the other hand, if there's a hostage, Tyrion was awfully close to KL's walls, he would have been easy to grab.

Is it too much to hope for something like a moment of lucidity where Dany asks Jon to kill her?  I know it's a bit of a cliche, but it would give her some semblence of going out on her own terms, and be somewhat heroic.  Or maybe a post-death scene of her reunited with Drogo?  Just something to take the edge off.

I read a comment on reddit that made a lot of sense, I thought.  They said that in the earlier seasons, when something bad happened, they got mad at the characters.  Like when Lady was killed, they got mad at Cersei.  But now when something bad happens, they get mad at the writers.  

I thought that was so true, and is a big indication of the bad writing.

So if they hit a plot point that George gave them , you're going to be mad with him ?

Missandei's death is fitting with the character that Cersei is.

Shereen and Hodor, all these came from him, I saw nothing wrong in how these 3 deaths happened, they all hit a nerve and tear ducts.

And none of them were not.nonsensical.

Missandei goes to a skiff, it's quite possible she be picked up, Tyrion should had drown when he got hit, but that's not what people complain about, it's a loved character who lost her life in a manner not so 21st century proper. Or a 2sec paper cup.

[domina89]

6 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Well the "WE" part is limiting, the GA wouldn't catch those, hell I saw BR here miss the map room scene.

Ok, yes, I suppose they didn't really establish the Targ history with prophecy well enough for the GA in the show, but they could have with just a few conversations.  Barristan knew enough about Rhaegar to be able to tell Dany how he became obsessed with prophecy, and Maester Aemon could have had a conversation with Sam about losing "Egg" at Summerhall and the possible reasons behind it.  I do think it could have been established enough to show a subtle progression with Dany if a little time had been allotted for it. Something so important to the end game should have been established early and much better, imo.

[Constantinople]

5 hours ago, galaxygirl76 said:

Did anyone catch in that last leak spec that Eurons new hostage wears a black cap/hood or something and they think it may be Daario? 

That would really jump the shark ring the bells

How would Euron have traveled to Meeren and back in time other than by the Starship Enterprise?

How would Daario have let himself get captured. He's ruler of Meeren and Captain of the Second Sons. He's also a skilled enough fighter to have survived the Meerenese pits

[Eyes High]

40 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

I'm beginning to wonder if maybe Friki's Tyrion trial spoiler is right after all. We had a mention of Dorne in the last episode, and Friki's spoiler notes that there is a possible Dornish character at the trial.

Friki's source was right about there being a Dornish character at the trial. It's Toby Osmond, who has already indicated he's playing a noble, and from the looks of him is playing a Dornish prince. It's one of the reasons Friki's information carried some weight, but the trial part is completely wrong.

There's nothing in the first four episodes to indicate that there's a trial, and Friki's source's other information doesn't match up.

1. Friki's leaks claimed that Tyrion betrays the Starks. Tyrion's not in any position to betray the Starks (he's still on Team Dany), and if anything, he's going to cross over to Team Stark to stop Dany once he realizes she's not going to spare KL. Would he betray Dany and then doublecross the Starks in the space of a single episode? I doubt it. Also, Tyrion's standing with Jon and Davos and the Northern forces in the 8x05 promo. Lastly, blabbing to Varys wasn't a betrayal of the Starks, since we don't know whether Sansa swore him to secrecy, and we know from the Inside the Episode segment that Sansa told Tyrion because she knew he would tell Varys.

2. Friki's leaks claimed that Tyrion burns KL and claims at his trial by way of justification that "they deserved it." In 8x04, Tyrion is still doing everything in his power to avoid a calamity in KL and puts his own life at risk to beg Cersei to surrender peacefully, while Dany is getting ready to torch KL with Drogon.

3. Friki's leaks also claimed that Tyrion is bedraggled and disheveled at his trial, with longer hair and dirty, beige clothes. However, Tyrion has yet to wear on the show his fancy Lannister outfit from the EW photoshoot, and it looks like he doesn't wear it in 8x05, either, since the BTS video with Peter Dinklage with burn/dirt makeup must be from 8x05 or 8x06. That means that it's an epilogue outfit, meaning no lengthy epilogue imprisonment and no trial.

4. Friki's leaks claimed that Bran drops a line at Tyrion's trial proving Tyrion's treason (either "family first" or "I never bet against my family"), but neither line has appeared in the show to date as a Tyrion line. I thought the line could be introduced in S8, but nope.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Eyes High

[GrailKing]

3 minutes ago, domina89 said:

Ok, yes, I suppose they didn't really establish the Targ history with prophecy well enough for the GA in the show, but they could have with just a few conversations.  Barristan knew enough about Rhaegar to be able to tell Dany how he became obsessed with prophecy, and Maester Aemon could have had a conversation with Sam about losing "Egg" at Summerhall and the possible reasons behind it.  I do think it could have been established enough to show a subtle progression with Dany if a little time had been allotted for it. Something so important to the end game should have been established early and much better, imo.

I see it as they made it a slow burn, and quite a few people see it, their complaints aren't that they didn't see it coming, their complains are its wrong to make her crazy, because they love her and the dragons.

And they still gave hits on toss a coin 50/50 on crazy in the show.

[absnow54]

Episode 5 photos are up. Did any leaks have the Gold Company at the gate? I feel like they've all said the battle is one sided, but this looks pretty evenly matched.

Edited May 8, 2019 by absnow54

[Colorful Mess]

Dany is like >:(

Cersei is like :)

Varys with Jon is like :D

He knows he can end Dany's career at any moment. 

[Eyes High]

13 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

Episode 5 photos are up. Did any leaks have the Gold Company at the gate? I feel like they've all said the battle is one sided, but this looks pretty evenly matched.

Someone said in 8x04 that the battle had gotten distressingly even, and that was before Euron took down Rhaegal and several Unsullied ships.

Tyrion's expression of horror in the photos....Yeah, this is not ending well.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Eyes High

[GrailKing]

13 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

Episode 5 photos are up. Did any leaks have the Gold Company at the gate? I feel like they've all said the battle is one sided, but this looks pretty evenly matched.

Jon's guys look effin worn.

1 minute ago, Eyes High said:

Someone said in 8x04 that the battle had gotten distressingly even, and that was before Euron took down Rhaegal and several Unsullied ships.

Varys, he read them from scrolls.

[stagmania]

Dany looks depressed and it seems liker her hair is partially undone.

Seems to line up with the new leaker's claims.

Edited May 8, 2019 by stagmania

[SeanC]

16 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

Episode 5 photos are up. Did any leaks have the Gold Company at the gate? I feel like they've all said the battle is one sided, but this looks pretty evenly matched.

I assume the one-sidedness is the result of Drogon being unleashed.

How is Jon sailing to Dragonstone when Euron controls the seas?

[John Potts]

You know the other way Danny could "Break the Wheel"? Not democracy (or more likely, some sort of Council of Nobles, a proto-House of Lords) but what Joffrey proposed: centralising authority on the throne. IF Danny wins the Throne (by no means a given) she will have broken the power of the independent Lords - she'll likely be the only one left standing with any sizable army (largely thanks to her allowing her allies to get killed off by Cersei- even more so if she wipes out the population of Kings Landing!). Danny could wield an authority even greater than Aegon did.

Would that be a bittersweet ending? If it ended the wars, I expect the majority of the people would welcome it (How was it Jorah put it? "While the nobles play their Game of Thrones, the people want peace, a Summer that never ends and just to be left alone. They never are"). If it means no armies are marching over their lands, plundering and raping, I suspect they would be in favour. Sure, the nobles would resist it, but they would be in no position to do much about it. And that is what actually happened following the Wars of the Roses (even more so following Henry VIII splitting with the Catholic church) - the authority of the crown actually increased. And wouldn't that cause howls all over the Internet!

[Nashville]

6 hours ago, screamin said:

That would be weighing the odds in favor of Cersei, probably his least favored candidate on the board. If they'd got both dragons, it would be pretty much game over for Jon's side. Though since they've been writing everyone as having been hit with the Idiot Stick, I  suppose it's possible.

I was thinking of Varys planning a course along the following lines:

1. After his conversation with Tyrion, Varys decides to betray Dany in favor of Jon.
2. To this end, Varys sends a raven to Cersei presenting himself as a mole in Dany’s camp to support Cersei, and to that end betraying to Cersei the position of Dany’s fleet (and dragons).  The benefit of this to Varys would be twofold: Varys would re-ingratiate himself with Cersei as a (quasi-)trusted advisor, and Dany would either be killed (removing his dilemma entirely) or, at least, seriously militarily weakened.
3. Varys would continue his campaign of sabotage against Dany, until the point at which Cersei is convinced of certain victory...
4. ...at which point Cersei’s guard would be at its lowest point, and Varys would either slide a knife into her ribs or a lethal potion into her wine.
5. And afterwards, once both Dany AND Cersei have been properly disposed of, would the news of Jon’s true lineage - and his rightful claim to the Throne - be revealed.

Now, I’m not saying this is what happens; rather, that Varys might pursue a course of action intended to make this happen - which would make it entirely possible Dany found Varys out, and executed him for his treason.

17 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

For me they sprinkled enough through all 8 seasons to give a hint, I mean in S 1 what normal person walks into a fire unless full belief in something , like Buddhist Monks .

One who expects to die - which, back in S1, is all I think was really on Dany’s mind.  The fire was Drogo’s funeral pyre, and Dany intended to join him in death.  I expect surviving the fire - and hatching three dragon eggs in the process - surprised Dany greatly. 😉

[GrailKing]

5 minutes ago, Nashville said:

1. <snip>

One who expects to die - which, back in S1, is all I think was really on Dany’s mind.  The fire was Drogo’s funeral pyre, and Dany intended to join him in death.  I expect surviving the fire - and hatching three dragon eggs in the process - surprised Dany greatly. 😉

Except when Jorah said "I won't watch you burn"

Her reply was " Is that what you think ?" Paraphrased to lazy to play back scene.

Edited May 8, 2019 by GrailKing

[Nashville]

10 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Except when Jorah said "I won't watch you burn"

Her reply was " Is that what you think ?" Paraphrased to lazy to play back scene.

That could be taken one of two ways; either Dany didn’t intend to burn, or she fully expected Jorah would watch as she did. 

[GrailKing]

Just now, Nashville said:

That could be taken one of two ways; either Dany didn’t intend to burn, or she fully expected Jorah would watch as she did. 

She didn't think she burn, 1st episode she walks into scolding bath, another episode, she picks up egg from hot brazier, her aid burns, she doesn't, her phrase to Jorah as she watched her brother die, " fire can't burn a dragon "

Plenty of hints .

[glowbug]

1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

I see it as they made it a slow burn, and quite a few people see it, their complaints aren't that they didn't see it coming, their complains are its wrong to make her crazy, because they love her and the dragons.

And they still gave hits on toss a coin 50/50 on crazy in the show.

Some people might be saying Dany going mad or turning evil is wrong no matter what but the vast majority of us (including many who don’t particularly like Dany) have said that it’s the execution that’s bad. I wouldn’t have a problem with Dany going crazy or Jon killing Dany if it had been properly set up. The way D&D have written it is unbelievable. They keep telling us that she’s acting crazy at times but what they’re showing us hasn’t been crazy to a lot of us, and she hasn’t been morally ambiguous enough to justify a villain edit at the end. Arya and Sansa becoming villains would be more supported by what they’ve shown us onscreen, though I would hate it if they went in that direction too. 

And I disagree with @Eyes High that the Lannisters were more interesting in the books. Book Jon is a complex and interesting character. So is book Arya. There is a reason that Tyrion, Jon, and Arya are consistently named the top three favorite characters in the books. Jaime is also quite popular in the books but the show has made him uninteresting. I agree that they chose better actors to play the Lannisters with the exception of Maise Williams, who I think is a very strong actress, particularly for a child actor in the early seasons, but the writing for Arya has been terrible since she left for Braavos so her talent is hard to see now. 

Edited May 8, 2019 by glowbug

[Umbelina]

4 hours ago, clack said:

The only way to break the wheel is to destroy the Iron Throne and end the quest for absolute power that goes with it.

Daenerys has to renounce the throne (not likely), or die. This is the end towards which GOT has always been heading. I thought that the show had made that clear, but going by the reactions of some folks, I guess not.

I agree.

I can't see Dany EVER willingly give up a throne that she's been after ever since her brother died.  There is just no chance of that, it would be completely out of character.   She believes it's her right to rule Westeros, and she's believed that for a very long time.

For a while, in the books, since she screwed up "ruling" everywhere, and was basically only good at conquering, that her time spent learning by her various mistakes might benefit her, make her a decent ruler for Westeros when she got there.  

She's still the same Dany though, believing that because of her birth she's entitled to sit on that throne.

4 hours ago, Indi said:

Breaking the wheel by killing her off is so lazy! I know she's dangerously obsessed with the throne, but I would love it if she chooses to destroy it in such a way, that she ends that system for good. Agency, that's what I want for her in the final moments of the show.

How could that happen though?  She suddenly abandons everything she's worked for all along, and realizes that NO ONE, including her, should be Queen or King? 

That would be completely unbelievable to me really.  Even if she fell in love with Jon and they moved to a little house with a red door on some island somewhere with her dragons and let the world do what it will do, jumping off the wheel or something?  At any rate, that complete turn about in character is not in the cards, as the scene with Jon telling him to lie and his revulsion at her being her Aunt?  Show it's just not possible.

There could be some freaky twist that has dead Jon, dead Dany, and the dead dragons hooking up in the afterlife to become a possible magic threat to Westeros if they (the council)  put a foot wrong?  That would be too stupid.

I think this will be an end to magic in the world though, that would mean and end of both ice and fire.  If the dragons live, maybe ICE has to live as well, so there would be a new NK?  I think that's why they all have to die.

58 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

I see it as they made it a slow burn, and quite a few people see it, their complaints aren't that they didn't see it coming, their complains are its wrong to make her crazy, because they love her and the dragons.

And they still gave hits on toss a coin 50/50 on crazy in the show.

Yes, I could always see this, but honestly, I can't really tell if it's because of the books or the show now.  After all, the ages are so different in the books, and Dany is still stuck on another continent and struggling to rule.

54 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

Episode 5 photos are up. Did any leaks have the Gold Company at the gate? I feel like they've all said the battle is one sided, but this looks pretty evenly matched.

Dragon.

36 minutes ago, John Potts said:

You know the other way Danny could "Break the Wheel"? Not democracy (or more likely, some sort of Council of Nobles, a proto-House of Lords) but what Joffrey proposed: centralising authority on the throne. IF Danny wins the Throne (by no means a given) she will have broken the power of the independent Lords - she'll likely be the only one left standing with any sizable army (largely thanks to her allowing her allies to get killed off by Cersei- even more so if she wipes out the population of Kings Landing!). Danny could wield an authority even greater than Aegon did.

Would that be a bittersweet ending? If it ended the wars, I expect the majority of the people would welcome it (How was it Jorah put it? "While the nobles play their Game of Thrones, the people want peace, a Summer that never ends and just to be left alone. They never are"). If it means no armies are marching over their lands, plundering and raping, I suspect they would be in favour. Sure, the nobles would resist it, but they would be in no position to do much about it. And that is what actually happened following the Wars of the Roses (even more so following Henry VIII splitting with the Catholic church) - the authority of the crown actually increased. And wouldn't that cause howls all over the Internet!

Dany has always been blind to the fact that she's an outsider, and that while she may adore "her children" the general population would be rightly terrified of dragons.  Currently, she seems to completely reject the absolutely sound advice that burning millions of her "people" in KL by using dragon fire on their city is not going to endear her to "her people." 

Ever.

That right there is a sign that she's not mentally stable, and that she may be a great conquerer, thanks to her dragons, she still has no idea about ruling.  Her dream was that all the people of Westeros would love and cheer her, throw flowers in the streets at a Targ return, and at her return.  Even when she sees that isn't happening?  She is willing to rule by force and dragon murders, apparently blind to the fact that though that will make people fear her, it will never make them love or accept her, especially if she burns KL.

-----

People keep shortcutting Bran's new role as him being the new King, or even Bran taking the "throne." 

If the spoilers are correct, there is no throne, let alone an Iron Throne.  Bran oversees a council.  That is very different from being the new King.

I think the showrunners only left out the valonqar during the prophesy scene because it was far too big a spoiler.  I do think Jaime or Tyrion still kills Cersei.  OR, Arya does, wearing one of their faces.  Yes, I know that gives her two huge kills, so it's more likely Jaime kills her...still, I wouldn't rule it out.  I also wouldn't rule out one last appearance of the Faceless though.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Umbelina
typo

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, glowbug said:

Some people might be saying Dany going mad or turning evil is wrong no matter what but the vast majority of us (including many who don’t particularly like Dany) have said that it’s the execution that’s bad. I wouldn’t have a problem with Dany going crazy or Jon killing Dany if it had been properly set up. The way D&D have written it is unbelievable. They keep telling us that she’s acting crazy at times but what they’re showing us hasn’t been crazy to a lot of us, and she hadn’t been morally ambiguous enough to justify a villain edit at the end. Arya it Sansa becoming villains would be more supported by what they’ve shown us onscreen, though I would hate it if they went in that direction too. 

And I disagree with @Eyes High that the Lannisters were more interesting in the books. Book Jon is a complex and interesting character. So is book Arya. There is a reason that Tyrion, Jon, and Arya are consistently named the top three favorite characters in the books. Jaime is also quite popular in the books but the show has made him uninteresting. I agree that they chose better actors to play the Lannisters with the exception of Maise Williams, who I think is a very strong actress, particularly for a child actor in the early seasons, but the writing for Arya has been terrible since she left for Braavos so her talent is hard to see now. 

Crazy and mad, both very subjective.

I just leave it at, she's showing signs not fit to rule.

I get whiplash watching some of her decisions.

[domina89]

13 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

She didn't think she burn, 1st episode she walks into scolding bath, another episode, she picks up egg from hot brazier, her aid burns, she doesn't, her phrase to Jorah as she watched her brother die, " fire can't burn a dragon "

Plenty of hints .

To be fair, the fact that she doesn't burn may just read to the audience that she is "special."  Just like Bran is "special."  This is a magical world, after all.  I don't see anything in those examples as overpowering evidence that Dany will eventually go mad.

[GrailKing]

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, I could always see this, but honestly, I can't really tell if it's because of the books or the show now.  After all, the ages are so different in the books, and Dany is still stuck on another continent and struggling to rule.

Well that's the problem, let's thank George.

So he drops : you got to show Dani going crazy. Do you do it slow burn style or she do things suddenly that most normal people wouldn't.? 

[Nashville]

14 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

She didn't think she burn, 1st episode she walks into scolding bath, another episode, she picks up egg from hot brazier, her aid burns, she doesn't, her phrase to Jorah as she watched her brother die, " fire can't burn a dragon "

Plenty of hints .

Well, sure.  But a hot bath or brazier, vs. a funeral pyre designed to immolate a human body...?  Slightly different levels of scale there.

[Bannon]

48 minutes ago, SeanC said:

How is Jon sailing to Dragonstone when Euron controls the seas?

Jon steals Euron's Romulan cloaking device? Euron forgets that there's a guy named Jon runnin' around, doin' important stuff?

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Crazy and mad, both very subjective.

I just leave it at, she's showing signs not fit to rule.

I get whiplash watching some of her decisions.

Speaking of that, something else occurred to me. 

Sansa advising that they should perhaps wait, check with the military leaders about the condition of the troops, and how long they might need to recuperate to be in better shape to face Cersei and her forces?  Was not only sound advice, but it made me think of Dany's wounded dragon.  Had she let her dragon heal a bit, maybe it wouldn't have been taken down so easily.  We saw Drogon easily avoiding those spears with fancy flying, but Rhaegal could barely fly, let alone do fancy moves to evade.

Dany should have inspected her own, and most valuable troops (the dragons) and waited.  She's so single minded now though, that she didn't.

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, domina89 said:

To be fair, the fact that she doesn't burn may just read to the audience that she is "special."  Just like Bran is "special."  This is a magical world, after all.  I don't see anything in those examples as overpowering evidence that Dany will eventually go mad.

To me first inclination from normal watchers are : Lady you're nuts, you're going to burn.

After the eggs, they may say she's special, but Jorah wasn't at the bath or the eggs in brazier, so he seeing her do that, he thinks she's losing it, until the next morning, just like normal folks.

Feeding a man or burning people alive is not a normal thing to do, hanging children or grownups on crosses not a normal thing to do, person is either crazy or barbaric pick your choice.

Dani's done both, laced with some humanity, hard to say these are actions of a normal person.

[GrailKing]

10 minutes ago, Nashville said:

Well, sure.  But a hot bath or brazier, vs. a funeral pyre designed to immolate a human body...?  Slightly different levels of scale there.

Which any normal person like Jorah, may think she lost it, until he sees her the next morning.

[nikma]

22 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

How could that happen though?  She suddenly abandons everything she's worked for all along, and realizes that NO ONE, including her, should be Queen or King? 

Yeah, this ending never made any sense, bacause there is no reason for her to  abandon the Throne. She wants that power, she believes she is the saviour of the world and nothing will change that. 

[JennyMominFL]

3 hours ago, Bannon said:

I think the idea is ending the institution of an absolute monarchy. That would have been the seed of an interesting conflict: part of the anti Cersei leadership taking her break the wheel rhetoric to it's logical conclusion, and her slamming the breaks on, figuratively shouting "That's not what I meant!".

Yeah, I mean most countries dont go from absolute monarchy to Democracy. The ones that tried that struggled a lot. Im thinking more of a British type process where a democracy slowly emerged as Parliament got more power gradually. There is a line from Runnymede to the English Civil War to the Glorious Revolution etc etc. So you could end with a monarch and a new system, The problem is that Dany  wants to be Louis  XIV not  Queen Victoria . Im not sure she would even be willing to be a Charles II

Edited May 8, 2019 by JennyMominFL
Edited because that was a mess

[Indi]

28 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I can't see Dany EVER willingly give up a throne that she's been after ever since her brother died.  There is just no chance of that, it would be completely out of character.   She believes it's her right to rule Westeros, and she's believed that for a very long time.

For a while, in the books, since she screwed up "ruling" everywhere, and was basically only good at conquering, that her time spent learning by her various mistakes might benefit her, make her a decent ruler for Westeros when she got there.  

She's still the same Dany though, believing that because of her birth she's entitled to sit on that throne.

How could that happen though?  She suddenly abandons everything she's worked for all along, and realizes that NO ONE, including her, should be Queen or King? 

That would be completely unbelievable to me really.  Even if she fell in love with Jon and they moved to a little house with a red door on some island somewhere with her dragons and let the world do what it will do, jumping off the wheel or something?  At any rate, that complete turn about in character is not in the cards, as the scene with Jon telling him to lie and his revulsion at her being her Aunt?  Show it's just not possible.

There could be some freaky twist that has dead Jon, dead Dany, and the dead dragons hooking up in the afterlife to become a possible magic threat to Westeros if they (the council)  put a foot wrong?  That would be too stupid.

No, I agree with you, it was wishful thinking. At the end of the day, wanting the Iron Throne is incompatible with breaking any wheels. She would never do it. It's just that the idea of Jon killing her leaves a very bad taste in my mouth and I'd rather have the unlikely alternative scenario.

[Umbelina]

Related to what I said above about the Valonqar not being included when they did Cersei's prophesy scene.

IF one of her little brothers does not kill her, why would they leave it out?

OK, maybe it's because "little brother" might be anyone's little brother, including the baby she's carrying being, for example, Joffrey's little brother.

Still, it makes me think it was indeed "too big a spoiler" so it's Jaime (most likely) or Tyrion (doubtful because that is what Cersei expects.)

Part of me really wants Arya to get her most important name left crossed of her list though, so I mostly hope it's Arya, wearing Jaime's face.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Umbelina

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

Related to what I said above about the Valonqar not being included when they did Cersei's prophesy scene.

IF one of her little brothers does not kill her, why would they leave it out?

OK, maybe it's because "little brother" might be anyone's little brother, including the baby she's carrying being, for example, Joffrey's little brother.

Still, it makes me think it was indeed "too big a spoiler" so it's Jaime (most likely) or Tyrion (doubtful because that is what Cersei expects.)

I consider the map room scene 7 - 1; either a hint or a tease.

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, Indi said:

No, I agree with you, it was wishful thinking. At the end of the day, wanting the Iron Throne is incompatible with breaking any wheels. She would never do it. It's just that the idea of Jon killing her leaves a very bad taste in my mouth and I'd rather have the unlikely alternative scenario.

Maybe Cersei gave Dany's name to the Faceless Men, and they appear as Jon to kill her?

It's a show with magic, anything could happen here.

1 minute ago, GrailKing said:

I consider the map room scene 7 - 1; either a hint or a tease.

?

Care to elaborate?  😉

[GrailKing]

Something just crossed my damn mind, Last night rewatched, felt that Euron realized he was cucked.

Wouldn't Cersei pickup on Bronn played her since Tyrion's alive.

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

Maybe Cersei gave Dany's name to the Faceless Men, and they appear as Jon to kill her?

It's a show with magic, anything could happen here.

?

Care to elaborate?  😉

Cersei standing on the neck of westeros, Jaime on the fingers, check it out.

[GrailKing]

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Maybe Cersei gave Dany's name to the Faceless Men, and they appear as Jon to kill her?

It's a show with magic, anything could happen here.

Funny I was thinking Sansa paid the FM to take out Cersei, last night.

[Indi]

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Maybe Cersei gave Dany's name to the Faceless Men, and they appear as Jon to kill her?

It's a show with magic, anything could happen here.

?

Care to elaborate?  😉

That would mean he's dead. I'm all for it!

[domina89]

13 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

To me first inclination from normal watchers are : Lady you're nuts, you're going to burn.

After the eggs, they may say she's special, but Jorah wasn't at the bath or the eggs in brazier, so he seeing her do that, he thinks she's losing it, until the next morning, just like normal folks.

Feeding a man or burning people alive is not a normal thing to do, hanging children or grownups on crosses not a normal thing to do, person is either crazy or barbaric pick your choice.

Dani's done both, laced with some humanity, hard to say these are actions of a normal person.

Maybe if this weren't a fantasy show I would agree with you, but I went into this show with the expectation that unusual things would happen.  I don't compare the characters of this show to people I know in my reality, nor do I see Dany's behavior over the years as that of someone going mad.  I saw someone who wanted power and did what was necessary to get it.  I'm not saying she's Miss Morality, certainly, but being a conqueror requires a certain ruthlessness.

Tywin Lannister did some horrible, horrible things to maintain power- wiping out an entire house, the red wedding, etc., yet I haven't heard anyone accuse him of being mad or crazy.  

I just don't think there's enough evidence in the show to lean this hard into Dany's behavior here at the end, even with her losing as much as she has recently.  It just feels like poor planning to me.  D & D are like two college students who forgot to study for the final exam and are trying to cram the night before.  YMMV.

[absnow54]

4 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Wouldn't Cersei pickup on Bronn played her since Tyrion's alive.

I firmly believe D&D had on their bucket list "Bronn casually threatens Tyrion and Jaime with a crossbow" without planning any follow through or caring how they get there. Unless Bronn kills Cersei with the crossbow, which is possibly where all the CGI budget went to.

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, domina89 said:

Maybe if this weren't a fantasy show I would agree with you, but I went into this show with the expectation that unusual things would happen.  I don't compare the characters of this show to people I know in my reality, nor do I see Dany's behavior over the years as that of someone going mad.  I saw someone who wanted power and did what was necessary to get it.  I'm not saying she's Miss Morality, certainly, but being a conqueror requires a certain ruthlessness.

Tywin Lannister did some horrible, horrible things to maintain power- wiping out an entire house, the red wedding, etc., yet I haven't heard anyone accuse him of being mad or crazy.  

I just don't think there's enough evidence in the show to lean this hard into Dany's behavior here at the end, even with her losing as much as she has recently.  It just feels like poor planning to me.  D & D are like two college students who forgot to study for the final exam and are trying to cram the night before.  YMMV.

As I said subjective, I just leave it as wrg to Dani, not the best to rule

[Umbelina]

12 minutes ago, Indi said:

That would mean he's dead. I'm all for it!

Jon did die.