S05.E23: Lian Yu

[BkWurm1]

11 hours ago, johntfs said:

I don't know.  I'm probably in the minority with this, but I tend to give Ra's more credit than that.  He seemed to be a pretty cool, put together dude on Legends of Tomorrow.  By the time of Arrow, figure continued exposure to the Lazarus Pit had really left its mark, but even so, he seemed to be a guy who tried to be as decent in any given situation as that situation allowed him to be.  Of all the villains, Ra's was the only one I kind of liked.  He was the only where I really wished something could have been worked out, especially since his death meant Oliver giving the LoA over to Malcolm Merlyn, selfish shitheel that he was (and probably still is)

I don't think there's really that much of a conflict between this and what I was saying. His power and control over a situation meant that he could play the part of the sympathetic, understanding guy while at the same time planning on destroying the whole city and forcing his daughter into not just a marriage but to be bred and used as a brood mare to extend his legacy.   Ra's was a bad dude who did bad things not because he had to, but because he wanted to.  But I will concede that he wasn't doing evil for the sake of evil.  It's just that his reasons behind everything he did were so twisted and warped.  

 So even when he spent a few nostalgic moments remembering his wife and family fondly, and how he left them all without a word to save them, he left out the part of the story where he willingly went back and killed everyone in his hometown and everyone would include his wife and kids!

So for me, I think it was all about playing a part and cultivating an image.  One where it could seem he truly was sympathetic, but since he was the one in power and didn't have to ruin their lives, it's all fake sentiment.  But that said, I do believe he buys into his own act.  

 

2 hours ago, bijoux said:

Oh, yay. It's been giffed.

Source

I swear this did more to confirm to me they were back to being a couple than anything else.  Lol.  

24 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Felicity: It's complicated.

Samantha: I saw that kiss.  Doesn't seem that complicated to me.

You know why it's complicated?  It's because you forced Oliver to lie to Felicity, beeyotch, and now she doesn't trust him any more. So stop pretending you give a damn about Felicity.

 

The thing that I keep coming back to is how Samantha basically absolves herself of any blame by putting it all back on Felicity for supposedly making something complicated that didn't have to be.  Grr.  

Edited May 26, 2017 by BkWurm1

[EmilyBettFan]

I'm guessing whoever Joe is he might be vigilante. 

[statsgirl]

It would be an interesting dilemma for Oliver and the newly Zen Slade.

[LeighAn]

18 minutes ago, EmilyBettFan said:

I'm guessing whoever Joe is he might be vigilante. 

Is he old enough?

[AudienceofOne]

10 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

The thing that I keep coming back to is how Samantha basically absolves herself of any blame by putting it all back on Felicity for supposedly making something complicated that didn't have to be.  Grr.  

The problem with this is that Samantha isn't a character. She has no personality. She's barely a plot cipher. So anything she says can't be analysed for motivations or insight into who she is. The writers just have her pop up when they want movement in Oliver's and Felicity's relationship.

Her job was to help establish that Felicity is ready to get back with Oliver. Yes, giving that job to this particular character is ludicrous but no more ludicrous than her NOBODY CAN KNOW ABOUT THIS ultimatum last season or that time Thea was like "Oh no, Oliver, lying is totally fine" or Slade wondering why Oliver didn't marry Felicity when they weren't even engaged last time he saw them. Or anything Chase has ever done or said.

Edited to add a reminder that she spent this episode claiming she "would not leave her son" while trudging across an island to a plane she kept insisting she wasn't getting on. I'd ask for a modicum of character development from the writers except if I got that we'd waste even more screen time on this fustercluck.

Edited May 27, 2017 by AudienceofOne

[LeighAn]

2 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

The problem with this is that Samantha isn't a character. She has no personality. She's barely a plot cipher. So anything she says can't be analysed for motivations or insight into who she is. The writers just have her pop up when they want movement in Oliver's and Felicity's relationship.

Her job was to help establish that Felicity is ready to get back with Oliver. Yes, giving that job to this particular character is ludicrous but no more ludicrous than her NOBODY CAN KNOW ABOUT THIS ultimatum last season or that time Thea was like "Oh no, Oliver, lying is totally fine" or Slade wondering why Oliver didn't marry Felicity when they weren't even engaged last time he saw them. Or anything Chase has ever done or said.

Agree with this. I didn't read the line as bitchy because I think it was just there to have someone comment on the status of Olicitys relationship to set up them reuniting officially next season, same with Slade commenting on why Oliver didn't marry her (hopefully because he's finally going to next season). 

[BkWurm1]

13 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

The problem with this is that Samantha isn't a character. She has no personality. She's barely a plot cipher. So anything she says can't be analysed for motivations or insight into who she is. The writers just have her pop up when they want movement in Oliver's and Felicity's relationship.

Her job was to help establish that Felicity is ready to get back with Oliver. Yes, giving that job to this particular character is ludicrous but no more ludicrous than her NOBODY CAN KNOW ABOUT THIS ultimatum last season or that time Thea was like "Oh no, Oliver, lying is totally fine" or Slade wondering why Oliver didn't marry Felicity when they weren't even engaged last time he saw them. Or anything Chase has ever done or said.

Yeah, you are probably right.  They probably didn't mean for it to seem like she was casting blame, just noting for the audience that Olicity for all intents and purposes are ready to go again, but even if she was just a plot cipher, she does have just enough history to color what she said.  And that gives her characterization and yeah, nothing she has ever said made her seem like a great person.

Quote

   Let's just not have BS say anything else that makes it sound like she thinks she's E1 LL like that "replace" line from the finale. That's one of my big hopes for season 6. 

I brought this over from the Hopes and Dreams thread because it made me think that the only reason why BS would say "You thought you could replace me?" is if she has spent time fantasizing about the life she could have or SHOULD have had.  Which is to say she's deluded.

 Still not sure if she's mad that Dinah got to join the team after E1 Laurel died instead of BS or if BS was so deep into the fantasy that she identified AS E1 Laurel and thus was furious that the team brought in a replacement.  Honestly, I suspect it was a little bit of both.   

Edited May 27, 2017 by BkWurm1

[AudienceofOne]

8 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Still not sure if she's mad that Dinah got to join the team after E1 Laurel died instead of BS or if BS was so deep into the fantasy that she identified AS E1 Laurel and thus was furious that the team brought in a replacement.  Honestly, I suspect it was a little bit of both.   

Oh yeah, Black Siren's "replace me" line. Also ludicrous. I could add that one to my list as well.

[johntfs]

11 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Felicity: It's complicated.

Samantha: I saw that kiss.  Doesn't seem that complicated to me.

You know why it's complicated?  It's because you forced Oliver to lie to Felicity, beeyotch, and now she doesn't trust him any more. So stop pretending you give a damn about Felicity.

It was more than just Oliver keeping a promise to Samantha.  There were multiple, complicated trust issues.  Samantha seems okay with Felicity and wishes her and Oliver happiness together.  Samantha just doesn't want herself or her son mixed up in Oliver Queen's ongoing apocalypse of a life.  Can you really blame her?

Edited May 27, 2017 by johntfs

[dingochick]

Was hoping that Curtis would be a casualty. So sick of his "wit" and pop culture references. Just shut the hell up. You're not funny, you're inappropriate and it's getting old. Just get off my screen. 

[leopardprint]

15 minutes ago, johntfs said:

It was more than just Oliver keeping a promise to Samantha.  There were multiple, complicated trust issues.

Quote

From 415:

Samantha: "Oliver told me that there was someone in his life, someone special, and her name was Felicity. He wanted to tell you, and I wouldn't let him. I didn't know who he was now, I didn't know what kind of person he was."

Felicity: "That's going around. "

Samantha: "Just try and remember that I was the one that made him choose between you and knowing his son."

There really weren't though, the show wants us to believe that Oliver would still not have told Felicity about myson if Samantha hadn't demanded it of him? Samantha did give Felicity more of an explanation than Oliver ever did though. 

I agree that Samantha probably doesn't have bad feelings towards Felicity but it was an odd conversation and also that she should take her son and move much farther away this time. 

Lastly,

Shut up, Samantha!

Edited May 27, 2017 by leopardprint

[Midnight Lullaby]

I think that whole part was weird..she is a mother whose kid was kidnapped by a psychopath and takes her time asking Felicity about her relationship status..I imagine a person in that situation wouldn't even notice Felicity wasn't wearing a ring but would be worried sick about her kid. Also she didn't know about Oliver's trust issues and the real reason they broke up so I think a person in that situation would normally assume that making him lie for months about something major could have ruined the relationship and would refrain from asking.

[Cthulhudrew]

I actually thought the line about "it doesn't seem that complicated to me" was supposed to be meant as a sort of kindness to Felicity on Samantha's behalf- sort of a way of saying, "Hey, dummy, you obviously are in love with Oliver, so don't let silly things like the whole me telling Ollie not to tell anyone about William get in your way."

That said, I can certainly see how and why people have had the opposite reaction to it. Could certainly have been written and/or presented differently.

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

It was more than just Oliver keeping a promise to Samantha.  There were multiple, complicated trust issues.  Samantha seems okay with Felicity and wishes her and Oliver happiness together.  Samantha just doesn't want herself or her son mixed up in Oliver Queen's ongoing apocalypse of a life.  Can you really blame her?

At the time of her demand, she didn't have a real good reason to think he was someone she needed to protect her son from.  So I do blame her.  Also, as part of her demand, I forget the line, but she pretty much confirmed her condition was punishment for it not having been easy on her.  

And on the island, the implication of her saying she wouldn't abandon Myson and Felicity saying for what it's worth she'd been against sending the kid away, that implies that Felicity believed that Samantha was vowing not to abandon the kid as a way of implying that Oliver had abandoned him when he sent him away.  

So at that point, She was upset that the kid hadn't been more involved in Oliver's life (and presumably then not left alone to be kidnapped again)

47 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

I actually thought the line about "it doesn't seem that complicated to me" was supposed to be meant as a sort of kindness to Felicity on Samantha's behalf- sort of a way of saying, "Hey, dummy, you obviously are in love with Oliver, so don't let silly things like the whole me telling Ollie not to tell anyone about William get in your way."

That said, I can certainly see how and why people have had the opposite reaction to it. Could certainly have been written and/or presented differently.

That likely was the intent, but when the writers connected it to Samantha asking why they broke up, it comes off as shade.  And actually, I do think it was meant to be a friendly "hey dummy, you are only getting in the way of your happiness" but she is the last person allowed to say that.  Especially since I thought that Felicity had already in the last scene with Oliver gotten out of her own way by kissing him.  Samantha's observations or blessings were not needed or appreciated (by me at least)

Edited May 27, 2017 by BkWurm1

[arjumand]

On 26/05/2017 at 9:59 AM, johntfs said:

I don't know.  I'm probably in the minority with this, but I tend to give Ra's more credit than that.  He seemed to be a pretty cool, put together dude on Legends of Tomorrow.  By the time of Arrow, figure continued exposure to the Lazarus Pit had really left its mark, but even so, he seemed to be a guy who tried to be as decent in any given situation as that situation allowed him to be.  Of all the villains, Ra's was the only one I kind of liked.  He was the only where I really wished something could have been worked out, especially since his death meant Oliver giving the LoA over to Malcolm Merlyn, selfish shitheel that he was (and probably still is)

R'as al Ghul was a rapist ('You will submit as your mother did before you" or something like that) and a rape-enabler - how is that being "as decent in any given situation as that situation allowed him to be"? He made Oliver murder (even though no-one actually died, most of them certainly thought they were dying) his entire network of friends and family, and ordered him to then murder an entire city. I'm sorry, must be missing the decency here. R'as al Ghul was a monster, and I was never happier when Oliver killed him. My only regret was that Oliver gave him the whole Assassin prayer schtick - he should have told him: "BTW, I'm giving your ring to Malcolm Merlyn!"

Re. the finale . . . eh. At least it's over? The whole MYSON, DO YOU HEAR??!! MAYBE IF I YELL IT ENOUGH IT'LL SINK IN! was kind of off-putting. And once again Adrian Chase is doing things which are superhuman and impossible - bombs over the entire surface of the island? Suuuure.

 

2 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

At the time of her demand, she didn't have a real good reason to think he was someone she needed to protect her son from.  So I do blame her.  Also, as part of her demand, I forget the line, but she pretty much confirmed her condition was punishment for it not having been easy on her.  

And on the island, the implication of her saying she wouldn't abandon Myson and Felicity saying for what it's worth she'd been against sending the kid away, that implies that Felicity believed that Samantha was vowing not to abandon the kid as a way of implying that Oliver had abandoned him when he sent him away.  

So at that point, She was upset that the kid hadn't been more involved in Oliver's life (and presumably then not left alone to be kidnapped again)

That likely was the intent, but when the writers connected it to Samantha asking why they broke up, it comes off as shade.  And actually, I do think it was meant to be a friendly "hey dummy, you are only getting in the way of your happiness" but she is the last person allowed to say that.  Especially since I thought that Felicity had already in the last scene with Oliver gotten out of her own way by kissing him.  Samantha's observations or blessings were not needed or appreciated (by me at least)

Oh, absolutely. Every time Samantha opened her mouth in the finale, I just wanted to yell, in the style of Captain Raymond Holt (Nine Nine!!), "Stop! TALKING!!"

And I cannot express how much I disliked the retcon of Oliver's rescue from Lian Yu. No wonder Oliver then felt wracked with guilt. Rather than spending five years on his own, having to survive - scratch that, it wasn't even five days on his own - he always had people around him. Sure, often they wanted to kill him, and beat him etc, but he never actually went through the mind-numbing, traumatizing experience of complete and utter isolation, having to teach himself to hunt, fish, to build shelter, etc.

No, of course I never thought he'd spent the whole 5 years there (like I said in a story, you don't get muscle tone like that from living off nuts and berries), but a few months at least.

Once there was the big fight with Kovar, I honestly thought that Oliver would miss the helicopter and have to spend a month or two on his own, being a real castaway. As it is, Sara spent more time being a castaway than he did.

Thea apparently forgot everything MM ever taught her, and walks through a mined island as if she's strolling down the boulevard. Also, I don't believe MM is dead yet. I think he is leaving the show, though - I think they already filmed a bit where, surprise!, he's not dead, and he gets them all out, sacrificing his life in the process.

I liked the Olicity bits, and they gave me some hope for Season 6. And I've made my peace with Slade Wilson rediscovering his chill, and helping Oliver. No matter what Slade said before, I've decided it was all the Mirakuru, and he's better now.

I think I'm so underwhelmed by the finale, because there were no stakes, unlike in other finales. There was no way the show was going to kill a child, let alone Oliver's SON, his BOY! No way, no how. When Adrian said that the brat was dead, I just rolled my eyes, and I'm glad that for once, Oliver wasn't dumb enough to believe him. But even though Oliver cared about the kid, I didn't. I cared about the characters who were kidnapped, but I don't believe anything is going to happen to them, either. And when things happen because Oliver holds the idiot ball (you wound the villain but don't immobilize him, or make him unconscious, for example) my response is a big shrug.

[apinknightmare]

2 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

At the time of her demand, she didn't have a real good reason to think he was someone she needed to protect her son from.

And she immediately DIDN'T protect her son from him - because right after laying out her reasons for not wanting Oliver around William, she then let him go up and spend time with her kid completely alone and unsupervised. She's a walking plot point, just like her son.

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, arjumand said:

R'as al Ghul was a rapist ('You will submit as your mother did before you" or something like that) and a rape-enabler - how is that being "as decent in any given situation as that situation allowed him to be"?

Because that's how things go in the League of Assassins.  Ra's (and consider that before he was Ra's, Ra's had another name - a name that was taken from him) was as much a slave to the traditions as anyone else in the league, probably more so.  Unless he upholds the traditions to the letter the others in the League will turn on him, execute him and pick somebody else who will fulfill the traditions.  It was awful that he forced Nyssa to marry Oliver, but he did that in order to save her life.  Because otherwise, once Oliver became Ra's, Nyssa would have to be killed as a potential rival.  Because that's the tradition.

[Hiveminder]

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

Because that's how things go in the League of Assassins.  Ra's (and consider that before he was Ra's, Ra's had another name - a name that was taken from him) was as much a slave to the traditions as anyone else in the league, probably more so.  Unless he upholds the traditions to the letter the others in the League will turn on him, execute him and pick somebody else who will fulfill the traditions.  It was awful that he forced Nyssa to marry Oliver, but he did that in order to save her life.  Because otherwise, once Oliver became Ra's, Nyssa would have to be killed as a potential rival.  Because that's the tradition.

I'm not going to give Ra's any credit. So he was essentially coerced into joining the LoA to protect his loved ones and then had to go back and destroy his home which contained his loved ones because it was league tradition and they would have turned on him if he didn't. You know who else was in that position? Oliver. And guess who didn't become a power mad sociopath who treated other people like his toys and forced another man into the same awful situation he had once been in. 

 

7 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

 

I brought this over from the Hopes and Dreams thread because it made me think that the only reason why BS would say "You thought you could replace me?" is if she has spent time fantasizing about the life she could have or SHOULD have had.  Which is to say she's deluded.

 Still not sure if she's mad that Dinah got to join the team after E1 Laurel died instead of BS or if BS was so deep into the fantasy that she identified AS E1 Laurel and thus was furious that the team brought in a replacement.  Honestly, I suspect it was a little bit of both.   

I hope the go full on crazy with BS next season. E1 Laurel tried to single white female Sara. Have E2 Laurel try to single white female herself. It could actually make me enjoy this character. 

2 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

And she immediately DIDN'T protect her son from him - because right after laying out her reasons for not wanting Oliver around William, she then let him go up and spend time with her kid completely alone and unsupervised. She's a walking plot point, just like her son.

I think most of us can agree that whatever the intention is for Samantha, all facts point to her being an awful, dumb person who decided to play petty games when her son's father learned about the child he thought was dead and wanted to be a part of his life instead of working with Oliver like two equal adults who both want what's best for their child. 

[tv echo]

The reason that some of the relationship dramas in the finale fell flat is because of the imbalance in the relationships. As Craig Wack said (in his Agents of Geek podcast review), the confrontation between Nyssa and Talia wasn't as strong as it could've been because it was a fight between "a character you kinda know and really like and a character you don't know at all."

Similarly, Oliver's angst and worry over his son could've been stronger if we felt more of a bond between him and William and if we knew more about William as a person (with character and personality). Instead, we got a father-son relationship between a character we know really well and a character we don't know at all.

Samantha's return had zero impact because she could've not been there and it would've made no difference to the finale. We still don't really know her or understand her motivations.

Slade Wilson's return had an impact because we do know him pretty well and we know his complicated history with Oliver.

Evelyn's return had zero impact because we still don't really know her or understand her motivations for turning on Oliver.

Black Siren's return had an impact because of her reactive effect - she looks exactly like Laurel, and we know (too well) Laurel's history with Quentin and the other main characters on the show. Beyond that, she's little more than a two-dimensional cartoon villain at this point.

Edited May 27, 2017 by tv echo

[catrox14]

On 5/25/2017 at 10:05 PM, BkWurm1 said:

I was wondering if it was a seaplane as well.  I watched again and still couldn't tell for sure but they were out of luck since the plane was not in the sea but in a little clearing, no where close enough to the water

If the 2nd plane is a seaplane, they could have worked together to push it into the water and use it as a floatation device and at least not be on land when the bombs went off.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[catrox14]

9 hours ago, EmilyBettFan said:

I'm guessing whoever Joe is he might be vigilante. 

I am so hoping for the reveal that "Vigilante'  is  Chase's evil doppelganger cousin who looks exactly like Chase, and has been working with Chase to get all these plans into play and he will blame Oliver for Chase's death so we get Josh Segerra back cause he was awesome when he was bad.

[statsgirl]

There's hope for Black Siren though, if they write her complexly rather than as a short term villain and then a redemption arc for no real reason.  I'm not holding my breath though that she's a Leonard Snart.

9 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

Edited to add a reminder that she spent this episode claiming she "would not leave her son" while trudging across an island to a plane she kept insisting she wasn't getting on. I'd ask for a modicum of character development from the writers except if I got that we'd waste even more screen time on this fustercluck.

I understood that though.  When Oliver sent them off so that he could go after William, saying that he needed to be able to concentrate on saving Myson rather than worrying about them, she went so that he could do that without worrying about her. But on the way over she told Felicity that she wasn't leaving the island without her son.  That's exactly what I as a mother would have done -- there's no way I would have flown away to safety leaving my child in danger.

The problem was her comment on Felicity's relationship with Oliver (which crossed over all sorts of lines) and the glib assumption that Samantha herself had no role in creating any problems between them. 

There were no trust issues until Samantha showed up with her demands.  Felicity knew Oliver lied but she could see through those lies.  She knew he would sacrifice himself stupidly instead of talking it over with his friends.  But there were zero trust issues until Samantha came around and then the writers created them to justify the horrible mess of William and Samantha.

They could have given the kiss/complicated line to anyone else, Slade, Digger, Malcom, Talia, a random ninja, and it would have been plot exposition.  Giving it to Samantha tainted it with multiple layers of meaning the writers probably didn't intent.

7 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

At the time of her demand, she didn't have a real good reason to think he was someone she needed to protect her son from.  So I do blame her.  Also, as part of her demand, I forget the line, but she pretty much confirmed her condition was punishment for it not having been easy on her. 

The $2 million  that Moira gave her to keep quiet should have made it much easier on her.  It's not Oliver's fault that she didn't cash the second cheque.

Not to mention, Samantha was free at any time to contact Oliver and tell him about William, especially after Moira died. She didn't do it, she didn't want Oliver involved in William's life in any way and when he did want to get involved, she punished him by putting on a condition that led to the end of his engagement.  The writers really need to have her STFU about anything to do with Oliver and Felicity's relationship because she has negative credibility in this.

9 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

 Still not sure if she's mad that Dinah got to join the team after E1 Laurel died instead of BS or if BS was so deep into the fantasy that she identified AS E1 Laurel and thus was furious that the team brought in a replacement.  Honestly, I suspect it was a little bit of both.   

I'm sure that is MG's idea of a clever line because it has multiple meanings.

But maybe she's jealous that Dinah found a place and friends after her lover "died" while she didn't. But then, Dinah is a nicer person than Black Siren is

1 hour ago, Hiveminder said:

I'm not going to give Ra's any credit. So he was essentially coerced into joining the LoA to protect his loved ones and then had to go back and destroy his home which contained his loved ones because it was league tradition and they would have turned on him if he didn't. You know who else was in that position? Oliver. And guess who didn't become a power mad sociopath who treated other people like his toys and forced another man into the same awful situation he had once been in.

That's the thing about Ra's.  He may be engaging at times but he continued doing all the horrible things the LoA  did, killing his family and friends and everyone else in his city, raping unwilling women, forcing his daughter into a marriage when meant that she was the sex slave of the man Ra's gave her Heir title to, not to mention killing ninjas who lost a forced fight with him.  He could have been a force for more enlightenment and less cruelty but he enjoyed his power too much.

Like all villains, he put his own gratification ahead of the good of his constituents.

Edited May 27, 2017 by statsgirl

[catrox14]

My other theory for how they got off the island is that ARGUS has a super speed elevator that Slade knows about that takes them to another completely secure impenetrable bunker under the prison that is unaffected by all the blasts on the island.

[BunsenBurner]

I've read all the comments on Samantha. I am not a mother but I am the aunt of many.  If I were Samantha on that island with Myson I would have become a ninja warrior and fought to stay. She already knew he was the GA and she clearly didn't give a f**k about the security of her child. She didn't teach him to keep his mouth shut and clearly didn't do a very good job of hiding. Believe me I would have changed everything to keep him safe. Riding the school bus would not have ever happened. She knew he had enemies and it had barely been a year and his safety and security was not a priority. Stupid is as stupid does. Clearly she does not and will not ever get the Mother of the Year award. 

[nitrofishblue]

do we really know that Malcom is dead? Yes, there was an explosion but that was in the background, no scenes of what actually happened. In the Arrow world, you aren't dead until you have died two or more times. The "dead" keep coming back.

[Primal Slayer]

32 minutes ago, BunsenBurner said:

I've read all the comments on Samantha. I am not a mother but I am the aunt of many.  If I were Samantha on that island with Myson I would have become a ninja warrior and fought to stay. She already knew he was the GA and she clearly didn't give a f**k about the security of her child. She didn't teach him to keep his mouth shut and clearly didn't do a very good job of hiding. Believe me I would have changed everything to keep him safe. Riding the school bus would not have ever happened. She knew he had enemies and it had barely been a year and his safety and security was not a priority. Stupid is as stupid does. Clearly she does not and will not ever get the Mother of the Year award. 

William kept up with his new identity so she couldn't have done that bad of a job. He was going to be kidnapped regardless. For all we know he could've ignored Chase after he mentioned his father and walked home, not like it would have mattered since Chase was going to kidnap them regardless. He is a kid, he is going to mess up unless she kept him locked up. She was trying to give her child a normal life and seemed to be a success at it until Chase showed up which doesnt make her look that bad imo. This is the same guy who knew EVERYONEs secret identity, he knew about the LoT, he knew about dopplegangers who'd never even stepped foot in the city, he was smarter then the entire team, a team of grown ass men and women. TA can't even keep their lair a secret from bad guys and they are "professionals". 

[leopardprint]

She did let her previously kidnapped kid walk to and from a bus alone but to your point, yeah it was just another of Chase's "knows all, sees all, does all". Samantha is like both irrationally paranoid (her dumb ultimatum) and then dangerously lax. 

Edited May 27, 2017 by leopardprint

[statsgirl]

I need to know if Chase kidnapped him right away when we saw the school bus scene or if he waited for  a week or two.  Did William walk home and not tell his mothers, or tell his mother and she didn't whisk him away again, or there was no chance to because Chase nabbed them both and locked Samantha in a cage for two weeks and left William on the boat alone colouring while he was in ARGUS custody? Was he wearing the same clothes when he got off the bus as in the boat scenes?

At any rate, Samantha should have taught him to be super suspicious of anyone who approaches him unexpectedly, and especially anyone who knows his name is William or who has ties to his old life.  He's at least 9 years old, he should be more savvy than we've seen be.

[Primal Slayer]

17 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

She did let her previously kidnapped kid walk to and from a bus alone but to your point, yeah it was just another of Chase's "knows all, sees all, does all". Samantha is like both irrationally paranoid (her dumb ultimatum) and then dangerously lax. 

And whose to say that Chase didn't already get to Samantha before he got to William? 

Or who knows, maybe Chase got a house there and became friendly with Samantha the same way he gained Olivers trust.

[leopardprint]

I think they should have had Samantha waiting for William at the bus stop as well. 

ETA: @Primal Slayer, any of that could have worked too if they bothered to mention it. She could have said they snatched her from her house during the cage convo. 

It's really hard for me to believe that a single mother who's basically in witness protection would let her son wander around outside by himself. (Yup that's what broke my suspension of disbelief) 

I also think they should have added a line about her insisting on going with Oliver and then he can convince her to go with the others then that nonsense about staying behind would have fit better instead of being just one more person Oliver will have to rescue. 

They could have even made it super angsty like "Oliver, he doesn't even know you, I need to go with you." 

Edited May 27, 2017 by leopardprint

[apinknightmare]

25 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

It's really hard for me to believe that a single mother who's basically in witness protection would let her son wander around outside by himself. (Yup that's what broke my suspension of disbelief) 

Yeah, same. And he didn't seem to be looking for her to be there to pick him up, he just stuck his hands in his pockets and went on his way. And engaged with a stranger when said stranger told him he knew his mom, which...anyone would tell a kid in their situation not to do! I mean, he knew enough to stick to his new name, but was completely unalarmed (and seemed more intrigued) that a stranger knew that his name was William - which would've been the whole point of getting a new name, so...run, kid! Yes, Chase would've gotten him anyway, but there is zero indication that Samantha and/or William made that job difficult at all.

[insomniadreams88]

William should've had a panic button. And he could've pressed it or something when Chase called him his real name but they could've made it that Chase got him and Samantha before anyone could do anything. But they wanted that scene at the end of 520, wanted Chase caught in 521 so they could have the brief happy period at beginning of 522 and then the rest of that episode and the finale, so instead of trying to work something in so that Samantha and William didn't look stupid, we got what we got. 

[apinknightmare]

I would've accepted anything other than an interested, "You know my mom?" YOU ALREADY FELL FOR THIS ONCE YOU CUTE LITTLE MORON. THAT MAN KIDNAPPED YOU TOO, just...yikes. If he'd just turned and walked swiftly away I would've felt better about the level of preparation his mother had given him. Anything other than what we got, haha.

[SmallScreenDiva]

I'm just saying, from now on, Myson should have a daily diet of blueberry pancakes full of tracking nanites :P

[insomniadreams88]

3 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I would've accepted anything other than an interested, "You know my mom?" YOU ALREADY FELL FOR THIS ONCE YOU CUTE LITTLE MORON. THAT MAN KIDNAPPED YOU TOO, just...yikes. If he'd just turned and walked swiftly away I would've felt better about the level of preparation his mother had given him. Anything other than what we got, haha.

Didn't Chase say he knew his father? Which is even worse because William didn't know his father. 

[apinknightmare]

5 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Didn't Chase say he knew his father? Which is even worse because William didn't know his father. 

Yes - but first he said "Your name used to be William, before you and your mom left Central City, right?" And then William asked if he knew his mom, but Chase told him he knew his father. And seemed like he was interested in whether or not this guy knew his mom, which!!!! Even if Samantha didn't teach him anything, he should've still known better than to fall for a friend of your parents lie again. Ugh, that kid.

Edited May 27, 2017 by apinknightmare

[insomniadreams88]

Just now, apinknightmare said:

Yes - but first he said "Your name used to be William, before you and your mom left Central City, right?" And then William asked if he knew his mom, but Chase told him he knew his father.

Oh right. I forgot all of the stupidity there. 

5 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

I'm just saying, from now on, Myson should have a daily diet of blueberry pancakes full of tracking nanites :P

Really, they all should. But yes, give Myson every safety measure possible because it's more likely that he'll be kidnapped again than he won't. And probably because he'll just talk to the kidnapper. 

[statsgirl]

17 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I would've accepted anything other than an interested, "You know my mom?" YOU ALREADY FELL FOR THIS ONCE YOU CUTE LITTLE MORON. THAT MAN KIDNAPPED YOU TOO, just...yikes. If he'd just turned and walked swiftly away I would've felt better about the level of preparation his mother had given him. Anything other than what we got, haha.

Maybe he didn't realized that he was kidnapped the first time and just thought he was with Mommy's friends colouring for a while?  The kid isn't too bright after all.

[leopardprint]

Maybe Samantha also forgets about her son unless he's right in front of her face like Oliver? Is William a metahuman whose power is proximity based amnesia? Would explain a lot. 

Or, as @Primal Slayer, suggested, she could have said she was taken while going to get him at the bus stop. They could have sacrificed one of the umpteenth "myson"s to flesh her out the tiniest bit. 

Edited May 27, 2017 by leopardprint

[Primal Slayer]

Sam and son aren't seen as actual characters to the writers so they wont waste that previous 2 seconds lol. 

[tennisgurl]

I feel like William is being written as being younger than he actually is. Or maybe he just isn't being written at all, he's just Oliver's Son, and has no character of his own. Like, isn't William supposed to be about 10 years old at this point? He isn't a toddler anymore, he's almost a pre-teen. 10 year olds have personalities and survival instincts! Even 10 year olds who don't have a history of being kidnapped by supervillains would know not to talk to strangers or go off with them! They have been taught to run off instantly or start kicking and fighting or something. And even when he was being held on the boat, the stupid kid was apparently just hanging out, not drugged or tied up or anything. I mean, maybe you could say he was threatened or in shock or something, but since we never saw that, I'm just going to assume that the writers assume 10 year olds are basically the same as very slow witted 5 year olds. The kid didn't even look that scared when he had a gun to the head. He just looked bored. Maybe its just bad acting, but he just doesn't seem like a real character, he's just a plot device. I don't actually want him to die or suffer, but I don't care about him or Oliver's feelings towards him, because he doesn't seem real, and his connection to Oliver just seems like lip service.

Edited May 27, 2017 by tennisgurl

[catrox14]

Can I just say how much I love how quickly this place adopts a nickname and it's usually totally organic and born of terrible writing, like Poppy or Rayporter. And now, Myson. No one will ever convince me that his name is not in fact Myson William Queen. 

I liked the finale overall and I fully understand the need a writer has to make sure the audience can follow the plot but for FFS, do they really think viewers are just going to tune and not figure out after the first 3 'My Sons" that they are trying to save Oliver and BM's SON.  This episode might as well have just been titled. "MY/SON'

I mean, seriously, who speaks like Oliver did when Oliver & Slade, and then later Oliver & Chase, are talking to each other, respectively about William?  In each case, they both know who they were talking about whether it was them alone with each other, or others in the room who already knew who they were talking about. Everyone on the damn island including the poor unconscious ARGUS guard knew who they were talking about.

Every one of these exchanges just took me out of each scene, and I was so bothered by it, that I decided to rewatch and the look at the dialogue because I thought maybe I'm being too harsh. And maybe I'm just being overcritical...but I really don't think I am.

Look at these specific exchanges. I'm even leaving out BM and Felicity's chat in which BM says, "I can't leave my son".

 

Quote

Oliver:: There is a man here on the island named Adrian Chase. He's holding my friends and my family hostage, including Thea And my son.

Slade: Since when do you have a son?

Oliver: Slade, are you gonna help me or not?

Slade: I think I'm stating the obvious when I say I killed your mother, and for that alone, you should have killed me. Oliver: Maybe what's happening now is the reason I didn't. This is all the Intel that I've been able to gather on your son Joe, including his present whereabouts.

Slade: Are you offering to help me find my son?

Oliver: I want us to find both of our sons. 

ME: No, that is not normal speech patterns.

What they should say is after they have established they are speaking about each others' sons

Slade: Are you offering to help me find him? (Or you know...his name, Joe)

Oliver: I want us to find them both.

http://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=arrow&episode=s05e23

 

Quote

Oliver: Have you seen my son?

Slade: I've searched. Your son is not here.

Oliver: We got to get my gear, we got to move.

We find Chase, we find my son.

People say

Oliver: Have you seen my son?
Slade: 'I've searched. He's not here.

We got to get my gear, we got to move.

We find Chase, we find him ( even say the poor child's name, William)
Read more: http://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=arrow&episode=s

 

Okay, that was bad enough but seriously this exchange made laugh when I wasn't supposed to be laughing because it was not how people speak.  

 

Quote

Chase: Hello, Oliver. Welcome back to Purgatory.

Oliver: Where is my son?

Chase: I love this. Even now at the end, You're still 10 steps behind.

Oliver: Where is my son?
Chase: William? Good name. Sort of a sweet kid, actually. You sure he's yours?

Oliver: Adrian, where is my son?!

Chase: If you want to get your son back, you know what you have to do.

Read more: http://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=arrow&episode=s05e23

NO NO NO, this is not how people talk to each other when they are talking about the SAME THING AT THE SAME TIME.

Okay, most people, switch to an informal pronoun, in this case "He" after the first "my son".

So it should be:

Oliver: Where is my son?
Chase: William? Good name. Sort of a sweet kid, actually. You sure he's yours?

Oliver: Adrian, where is HE?!

Chase: If you want to get him (or you know his name, William) back, you know what you have to do.

And on the boat, Oliver did it one more time, but at least he remembered his child's name. LOL

 

The writers have only themselves to blame for me never calling Oliver's son anything but "Myson". 

[leopardprint]

Oliver on his own said it 12 times not including Samantha and Slade and most of them came in the final half and also not including the "your son"s and "his son"s. 

It really should have been called "My Son" but I guess that's a spoiler. 

The dialogue in this episode was mostly atrocious. 

Edited May 27, 2017 by leopardprint

[Primal Slayer]

14 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

And even when he was being held on the boat, the stupid kid was apparently just hanging out, not drugged or tied up or anything. I mean, maybe you could say he was threatened or in shock or something, but since we never saw that, I'm just going to assume that the writers assume 10 year olds are basically the same as very slow witted 5 year olds. The kid didn't even look that scared when he had a gun to the head. He just looked bored. Maybe its just bad acting, but he just doesn't seem like a real character, he's just a plot device. I don't actually want him to die or suffer, but I don't care about him or Oliver's feelings towards him, because he doesn't seem real, and his connection to Oliver just seems like lip service.

That whole scene was weird to me. They had William be COMPLETELY silent the entire time. He didn't whimper, wince, not a thing. The writers/director did a poor job there. 

[catrox14]

Just now, leopardprint said:

Oliver on his own said it 12 times not including Samantha and Slade and most of them came in the final half and also not including the "your son"s and "his son"s. 

It really should have been called "My Son" but I guess that's a spoiler. 

LOLOL I forgot about the "your sons' and "his sons"

On a 2nd more serious thought, maybe it really should have been something like "A Father's Love" given Malcolm died to save Thea and Felicity talked about her father sacrificing himself to save her, along with Oliver and Slade trying to save Myson and Oliver giving Slade the 411 on his kid.

[leopardprint]

7 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

That whole scene was weird to me. They had William be COMPLETELY silent the entire time. He didn't whimper, wince, not a thing. The writers/director did a poor job there. 

Also, I know people really love that scene so please forgive me, but it was unintentionally hilarious that SA was emoting like his life depended on it while also hiding the kid's face from the camera like his life also depended on that.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

They used "Legacy", "Legacies" and "Sacrifice" already maybe something about moving forward or leaving the past behind? Or blowing up the past? 

Edited May 27, 2017 by leopardprint

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

Also, I know people really love that scene so please forgive me, but it was unintentionally hilarious that SA was emoting like his life depended on it while also hiding the kid's face from the camera like his life also depended on that.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

LOL, SA might deserve an Emmy nom just for pulling off that feat to keep that kid's blank face from borking the scene.

HEY, WAIT A MINUTE.

Is that kid really Laurel's given his  inability to emote in the scene? (Okay that was kind of mean to the kid. He's just a kid).

Edited May 27, 2017 by catrox14

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

Also, I know people really love that scene so please forgive me, but it was unintentionally hilarious that SA was emoting like his life depended on it while also hiding the kid's face from the camera like his life also depended on that.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

What was unintentionally hilarious to me was this exchange.

Quote

Oliver: William, come here, come here! Hey! Are you ok? Are you all right? Are you all right? Did he hurt you? You all right? Ok.

He's gonna be fine.

Don't you talk to him! Don't even look at him!

[ Read more: http://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=arrow&episode=s05e23 

I literally said to the screen:

"Don't talk to me or my son ever again!!  and then I started laughing. 

[statsgirl]

24 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

That whole scene was weird to me. They had William be COMPLETELY silent the entire time.

He didn't whimper, wince, not a thing. The writers/director did a poor job there. 

Directors.  The episode director who couldn't even get him to whimper or look scared and the casting director who suggested him in the first place.

Good for writers MG and WM for not giving him any dialogue to screw up.  Boo on EPs MG and WM for casting this kid.

[leopardprint]

To be fair, I think hysteria is incredibly hard to pull off for any actor but the few times Oliver does it, it just comes off as silly to me. I think he does quiet rage and menace much more effectively but then how else will we know he loves his son?