S05.E23: Lian Yu

[statsgirl]

I think the Oliver/Felicity scene was Olicity fan service like the red pen scene in 5x09. But maybe the fact that I'm all WTF about Oliver being so chill about the people he has cared about for 5 season, more for Thea, in order to save MySon affect it.

40 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Can anyone explain Samantha's logic in going to the plane with the others and then staying behind? She would have gotten lost on that island in 2 minutes and then just been wandering around by herself and finding her would have been another problem they had to worry about. 

That was to show what a good mother she is, that she's not willing to leave her son.  I'll give her that.

It was the conversation with Felicity that I didn't like her in.  Felicity was awkward, because it was an awkward situation.  But Samantha crossed the line into bitchy first talking about Felicity's break-up with Oliver and then just letting it go.  She knew damn well that it was her demand that Oliver not tell Felicity about William that broke them up, and now she knows that Felicity still loves Oliver and wow, does she owe Felicity an apology instead of her bitchy comments on them.

Edited May 25, 2017 by statsgirl

[LeighAn]

Wow everything's fan service and nothing's plot or character development okay.

[leopardprint]

Grey's Anatomy did a serviceable kid in peril storyline for the finale and it landed way better than this, and the kid was even super bratty but they spent time showing her and setting her up in the previous episode. They even had a worried father who's single scene was better than all of Oliver's mysonning. 

The frustrating thing is it would have taken so little to fix this. 

Do you think Ray would mind that Oliver freed the person responsible for killing his fiancée? 

Edited May 25, 2017 by leopardprint

[Angel12d]

I didn't see that Olicity scene as fanservice at all? I think if you think there's a chance you might not see the person you love again, you'd kiss and hug them. It felt appropriate to me. It wasn't too much either. 

[popgoesculture]

47 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

Haha, I'm glad you liked it! It just felt like another box they had to check rather than, dare I say it, "organic." 

I felt the same way! Oliver looked not that into it?? I kind of expected something a bit more passionate, since danger/moment of reconciliation, etc. It felt very rote. 

[wonderwall]

I didn't even recognize this parallel. Wow

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, popgoesculture said:

I felt the same way! Oliver looked not that into it?? I kind of expected something a bit more passionate, since danger/moment of reconciliation, etc. It felt very rote. 

I think they were going for him being taken by surprise. 

[leopardprint]

2 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I didn't see that Olicity scene as fanservice at all? I think if you think there's a chance you might not see the person you love again, you'd kiss and hug them. It felt appropriate to me. It wasn't too much either. 

Sorry, I should clarify, I don't think Felicity wanting a last goodbye was weird just Oliver's reactions felt out of place to me. YMMV. 

Edited May 25, 2017 by leopardprint

[wonderwall]

IMO it'd have felt weird if he started passionately kissing her with everything going on 

[statsgirl]

It felt like they put the scene in to tick the box "Oliver and Felicity care about each other, Check". and then they could go to Oliver obsessing about MySon.

Oliver's lack of concern for his friends and family getting out alive after he learned that the plane was disabled and the island mined was disturbing.

[popgoesculture]

2 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

IMO it'd have felt weird if he started passionately kissing her with everything going on 

I didn't want them to start rolling around on the ground right there because, yes, that'd be super weird, but I think I expected more urgency/relief/investment to it? For me, EBR was selling it more than SA was. Something about the moment just didn't work. 

I was actually more touched by the kiss on the forehead from Felicity to Thea. That read as much more heartfelt and organic to me. 

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Oliver's lack of concern for his friends and family getting out alive after he learned that the plane was disabled and the island mined was disturbing.

I think that was supposed to be the culmination of relying on a team and trusting them to get the job done, etc. I don't think he didn't care, just that he trusted them all to take care of it (and surprise, they probably did). 

[wonderwall]

2 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Oliver's lack of concern for his friends and family getting out alive after he learned that the plane was disabled and the island mined was disturbing.

I actually liked that Oliver had faith in his team and had faith in their ability to handle themselves. He is that confident in his team's ability to get through sticky situations whereas a dumb kid obviously won't be able to take care of themselves. That's why he wasn't as worried about them (which is what I got from watching but ymmv)

Jinx @apinknightmare

[LeighAn]

Felicity kissed Oliver when he wasn't expecting it....ergo she was suppose to be putting more into it then Stepgen as he was suppose to be caught off guard. And anyway he kissed her back. It's not like he pushed her away and rubbed his mouth with back of his hand.

It was a nice kiss in an intense moment that included a heartfelt see you soon and promise for the future. 

[Lantern7]

Sorry I'm late. Survivor took priority. Spoiler: No literal explosion there.

Damn. I mean, I know most of the players will come out alive. "Mr. Queen? It's the Flash. The new one. Something happened with Bar- . . . I'm getting off-topic. I got most of the people to safety, except for the Australian guy. Yes, I know Jai Courtney was the better Digger. Oh, and there's a female skeleton in a cage, and- . . . dude, are you laughing?!?"

Once again: I don't hate William. That said, I don't need My Father The Hero in September. Bury him and Samantha, and let us never think of them again.

Felicity coldcocking Siren was funnier than Quentin blindsiding her, but that was still a sweet moment.

I would've stuck Oliver on the Island, and have flashbacks based on the second half of Oliver's adventures in S6. Also sucky to lose Dolph. When you need a hulking Russian stereotype, he's you're guy.

[SmallScreenDiva]

24 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I think the Oliver/Felicity scene was Olicity fan service like the red pen scene in 5x09. 

I think it was supposed to be an anvil with regards to the island blowing up. During that scene, in both their convos, Oliver was all like we'll talk about it later. He said that about Slade, and he also said that after the kiss. As for 5x09, it was a reminder to fans that the show still considered Olicity as THE couple in the midst of various temporary LIs. Hence the OTT retrieval and presentation of the pen by Oliver.

Anyway, anyone remember what Felicity's IQ is supposed to be? I think her math could be wrong this time: She told Samantha that between her and Curtis they have over 500 points of IQ. What?!?!

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

I actually liked that Oliver had faith in his team and had faith in their ability to handle themselves. He is that confident in his team's ability to get through sticky situations whereas a dumb kid obviously won't be able to take care of themselves. That's why he wasn't as worried about them (which is what I got from watching but ymmv)

Jinx @apinknightmare

I mean, the kid is useless but you have a team of smart, capable people vs. an idiot kid on his own against a psycho. You leave the smart, capable people and help the kid. I don't care about William at all, but much as I'd have liked this finale to be about the people I've spent 5 years investing in, his focus should've been on Myson. 

[LeighAn]

1 minute ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

I think it was supposed to be an anvil with regards to the island blowing up. During that scene, in both their convos, Oliver was all like we'll talk about it later. He said that about Slade, and he also said that after the kiss. As for 5x09, it was a reminder to fans that the show still considered Olicity as THE couple in the midst of various temporary LIs. Hence the OTT retrieval and presentation of the pen by Oliver.

Anyway, anyone remember what Felicity's IQ is supposed to be? I think her math could be wrong this time: She told Samantha that between her and Curtis they have over 500 points of IQ. What?!?!

140

[leopardprint]

1 minute ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Anyway, anyone remember what Felicity's IQ is supposed to be? I think her math could be wrong this time: She told Samantha that between her and Curtis they have over 500 points of IQ. What?!?!

180 (or 170) So Curtis has an IQ of 330? Maybe it's proximity to Samantha that makes everyone dumb. 

[Chaser]

 I think his reaction to the kiss makes sense. Last episode he was still unsure of their status, cautiously optimistic. Even though Felicity opened the door they never got the chance to talk. This was their first kiss since vodka. It was high stress and in public. He was taken by surprise, but he certainly looked like he appreciated it...

As for fanservice, I'm not even going to bother going over the meaning and this season. To each their own

[Mellowyellow]

See I thought he was pretty cute and confused and totally flirty when he asked her what was that for. 

He seemed really upbeat about their chances too whereas she was more about "just in case we don't make it out alive"

I thought her IQ was 170?

[LeighAn]

Yeah I just looked it up Felicity is 170 and Ray 140. I don't know if they ever said Curtis.

[leopardprint]

Curtis is a smart guy with his gizmos and gadgets and whatnot but he is not nearly 2x as smart as Felicity. 

I blame Samantha for Felicity's math fail. 

[Hiveminder]

4 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

I think it was supposed to be an anvil with regards to the island blowing up. During that scene, in both their convos, Oliver was all like we'll talk about it later. He said that about Slade, and he also said that after the kiss. As for 5x09, it was a reminder to fans that the show still considered Olicity as THE couple in the midst of various temporary LIs. Hence the OTT retrieval and presentation of the pen by Oliver.

Anyway, anyone remember what Felicity's IQ is supposed to be? I think her math could be wrong this time: She told Samantha that between her and Curtis they have over 500 points of IQ. What?!?!

Maybe she meant her and Curtis plus Samantha, Thea, Slade and Nyssa instead of just her and Curtis? I don't remember the exact line. 

Except, then over 500 is kind of low balling it. Unless she was treating Samantha's IQ as a negative number. 

[quarks]

Talk about a meta comment - Arrow pulls the classic Dynasty finale just as Dynasty is about to return to the CW. I see what you are doing there, show.

Not that this was the only metacomment for the episode.

Good things:

1. MOIRA! MOIRA! MOIRA! Just a few moments with her reminded me of how much she brought to the show.  Barry, I think I speak for many of us that we'll be more willing to forgive your time travelling nonsense if the next time you change the timeline, Moira comes back.

2. Slade questioning both aspects of the season 3 plot and the Oliver/Felicity breakup. I'm with you, Slade. I think we all are.

3. Malcolm taking a moment during a crisis to remind all of us that he used to own three Gulfstream jets. Malcolm, I have no idea what you are doing half the time or why but I am so glad you "died" offscreen and offcamera so that you can easily come back.

4. Thea, trying to talk sense into Oliver. It's a lost cause, Thea, but I appreciate the effort. I also seriously appreciate your jacket. That was great.

5. And speaking of Thea, Felicity and Thea bonding over their Evil Dads. Great moment.

6. I thought it was quite kind of Oliver to pretend that Curtis would be escorting and helping to protect Felicity/Samantha instead of the other way around. Well, at least with Felicity. I reserve judgement on Samantha.

7. Nysaa and absolutely everything with Nyssa. Especially -

8. Nyssa/Talia/Deathstroke scene.  A scene that really needed to last longer (see below) but was still awesome.

9. Awww. Oliver and Felicity took time off from rescuing a kid and four more of their friends to assure each other that they could discuss their relationship later. Timing, kids! Timing!

10. Don't blink, but I think Oliver just admitted that he can trust his teammates. Sometimes. CHARACTER GROWTH, everyone!

11. All of the double crossing was fairly predictable, so it was fun to see Oliver and Slade predicting it in order to get the device to Dinah.

12. The characters wondering if Evil Island also has a Big Belly Burger, which seems a valid question under the circumstances.

13. I guess we now know how Oliver jumps in and out of business suits/the Green Arrow suit so quickly. He practiced costume changing, wigs and beards on Evil Island!

15. The flashbacks are DONE. As is, for the foreseeable future, Oliver's Flashback Wig. I have hope for this show yet.  Especially if we get more moments with Moira again. 

Questionable things:

1. Arrow, I don't mean to be unkind here, but even Dynasty only tried this trick once. Trying this trick twice makes it a lot less meaningful the second time. Sure, this time Barry is a little less available, but Cisco and Wally are still around. Cisco was even mentioned in this episode! Not to mention that rather big Chehkov's gun of the ARGUS agent knocked out early on, who presumably contacted ARGUS shortly after Team Only Kinda Arrow took off across the island.

2. Given that Oliver, Felicity, and Thea were all aware that the island was covered in mines, a little warning and/or slightly closer attention to the ground might have been nice, guys!

3. Speaking of which, Samantha's reaction to the mine: ""Somebody needs to do something." THANK YOU FOR THAT HELPFUL OBSERVATION SAMANTHA. I no longer regret calling you the worst.

4. Also, Samantha, it was all very nice to announce that you were staying on the island with your son, but why bring this up while you are walking away from the group off rescuing the kid?  Why not bring this up earlier? In fact, if this was your concern, why not try to stay with the rescue group in the first place? This was one of many parts that desperately needed a bit more time to explain. Admittedly, almost none of Samantha's actions have ever made sense before this, so I suppose thinking they would make sense now was a bit much, but a couple more sentences to try to explain what she was doing would have been incredibly helpful.

5. Arrow writers, at the start of this season: We're embracing the gritty realism this year, everyone! It'll be great!

Oliver, in the finale: I shall now channel my inner Joker and take down a helicopter with one shot.

Chase, in the finale: You think that's impressive? I'm going to cover this entire island with explosive devices in between attending law school, becoming a DA, researching everything about Oliver, and killing people. Also, I shall do this right under the nose of ARGUS people guarding a prison on the island with a little supply boat on the island. AND THEN I SHALL BLOW UP AN ISLAND BECAUSE I HAVE ATTACHED THE DETONATOR TO MY HEARTBEAT. 

6. Speaking of which, I know I already said this last week, but I never want to hear about Argus's security ever again. People just walk into all of their facilities!

7. I'd ask how Rene was managing to bring down trained League of Assassins members, until I remembered that the League of Assassins haven't been any good since season two. That said, generally speaking, show, when it comes to fists versus swords, the swords should win. 

8. At the risk of hoping that this show would have some continuity, how did those cages survive? I thought they were destroyed between the first and second seasons? Or did the drug dealers build new ones in the fourth season while I wasn't paying attention?  Actually, that's a plausible explanation. Let's go with it.

9. I got the reasoning, but not a fan of Oliver sending Felicity off because she would be a distraction. She didn't buy or let him get away with that excuse in previous seasons: why now? Come on - this is the same person who helped stop one earthquake device, took down Slade, wore Ray's suit thing in previous finales. I get that she doesn't (and shouldn't) need to have a huge thing in every finale, but maybe send her off for tactical reasons? 

Though the honesty from Oliver was nice. I guess I'll take that. 

10. I'm....not feeling Evelyn here, guys. I know. The other villains I got - Chase is crazy, Harkness got a better offer, Talia is ticked at Oliver, Black Siren....ok, I'm at a loss for her, too, but that's a separate entry. But Evelyn? How did we get from "You weren't the hero I thought you were!" to "I shall participate in the kidnapping of a child and assume that getting put into a cage is all part of an Evil Plan." Oh, Evelyn. I had hopes for you during the brief moment where you spouted a personality, but I guess I shouldn't have hoped. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

9 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

Maybe she meant her and Curtis plus Samantha, Thea, Slade and Nyssa instead of just her and Curtis? I don't remember the exact line. 

Except, then over 500 is kind of low balling it. Unless she was treating Samantha's IQ as a negative number. 

LMAO!

She's just referring to herself and Curits. The line is: "Oh, don't worry, between Curtis and I we have over 500 points of IQ, so ..."

[Mellowyellow]

Omg the Raylicity babies would have been BRILLIANT!

*sorry I'll see myself out now*

[statsgirl]

8 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I think that was supposed to be the culmination of relying on a team and trusting them to get the job done, etc. I don't think he didn't care, just that he trusted them all to take care of it (and surprise, they probably did). 

Yes, it was supposed to show that Oliver trusted his team, to contrast with the season opener when he was adement that he didn't need anyone other than Felicity on comms.   But like Oliver's feelings for MySon, they didn't write the emotional beats the way they should have. They took short cuts and it fell flat.

 

9 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

I think it was supposed to be an anvil with regards to the island blowing up. During that scene, in both their convos, Oliver was all like we'll talk about it later. He said that about Slade, and he also said that after the kiss.

That makes sense.  Head canon accepted.

I know 5x09 was a "please don't give up on us even though we've given you zero food for that past 15 episodes."

I hate it when shows trying to show how smart they are by giving their characters ridiculously high IQs.  Here a 135 gets you into the gifted program.

IQ is measured by comparing how many questions you get right compared to how many other people get right. So as you get higher, there are fewer and fewer people who can get the answers right and the numbers become less valid.

I"ll take Felicity and Curtis in the 140 - 150 range. Anything above that is speculation.

[leopardprint]

24 minutes ago, quarks said:

9. I got the reasoning, but not a fan of Oliver sending Felicity off because she would be a distraction. She didn't buy or let him get away with that excuse in previous seasons: why now? Come on - this is the same person who helped stop one earthquake device, took down Slade, wore Ray's suit thing in previous finales. I get that she doesn't (and shouldn't) need to have a huge thing in every finale, but maybe send her off for tactical reasons? 

I didn't like this either. How helpful of Chase to separate the fighters and non fighters so they could be sent off with a pat on their heads. The writers could have made it so they had to intentionally go diffuse the bombs as part of the rescue instead of figuring out where they could cram some more "My son"s into the dialogue. 

@apinknightmare and @wonderwall, the trusting the team aspect totally went over my head because I didn't watch the first part of the season that dealt with the team stuff and otherwise forgot about it. So that part now makes more sense to me. 

Edited May 25, 2017 by leopardprint

[LeighAn]

6 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Yes, it was supposed to show that Oliver trusted his team, to contrast with the season opener when he was adement that he didn't need anyone other than Felicity on comms.   But like Oliver's feelings for MySon, they didn't write the emotional beats the way they should have. They took short cuts and it fell flat.

 

That makes sense.  Head canon accepted.

I know 5x09 was a "please don't give up on us even though we've given you zero food for that past 15 episodes."

I hate it when shows trying to show how smart they are by giving their characters ridiculously high IQs.  Here a 135 gets you into the gifted program.

IQ is measured by comparing how many questions you get right compared to how many other people get right. So as you get higher, there are fewer and fewer people who can get the answers right and the numbers become less valid.

I"ll take Felicity and Curtis in the 140 - 150 range. Anything above that is speculation.

It's not speculation. That's the IQ the writers gave her in the Arrow Companion:

http://smoakmonster.tumblr.com/post/153130359196/thebelovedsaralance-felicity-smoaks-iq-170

[catrox14]

Honestly, if we don't find out that William's name is really Myson William Queen, then what was this all been for?

[SmallScreenDiva]

16 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Omg the Raylicity babies would have been BRILLIANT!

*sorry I'll see myself out now*

LOL!

[apinknightmare]

12 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Yes, it was supposed to show that Oliver trusted his team, to contrast with the season opener when he was adement that he didn't need anyone other than Felicity on comms.   But like Oliver's feelings for MySon, they didn't write the emotional beats the way they should have. They took short cuts and it fell flat.

I guess I'm just not sure what emotional beats were missing? He had full faith that they'd take care of themselves - so there wasn't any reason for there to be any emotional beats. He was even the one telling Felicity for once it was going to be okay. 

[insomniadreams88]

Forgot to mention this earlier, but I'm very disappointed that the "Ms. Smoak" is the only Felicity/Chase interaction we got. 

[Hiveminder]

1 minute ago, apinknightmare said:

I guess I'm just not sure what emotional beats were missing? He had full faith that they'd take care of themselves - so there wasn't any reason for there to be any emotional beats. He was even the one telling Felicity for once it was going to be okay. 

Maybe some people were thrown off by the lack of any character explicitly stating that Oliver was trusting his team? It's been such a big thing this season I was kind of expecting the writers to punch me in the face with it when Oliver finally put his faith in his people. Like with a heartfelt speech about character growth, and neon signs, and maybe a plane spelling it out in the sky. 

[apinknightmare]

Just now, Hiveminder said:

Maybe some people were thrown off by the lack of any character explicitly stating that Oliver was trusting his team? It's been such a big thing this season I was kind of expecting the writers to punch me in the face with it when Oliver finally put his faith in his people. Like with a heartfelt speech about character growth, and neon signs, and maybe a plane spelling it out in the sky. 

Didn't Oliver actually say it?

[Simba122504]

See, Flash, that was a good season. Chase was a good villain. I'm going to miss him. This was a good finale and even the flashbacks were good. R.I.P  Flashbacks. You weren't always the best but it's going to feel strange without you. Does this mean F/O will have a better relationship in S6 than in S4?  Only typical comic book stuff will happen to their ship. I don't care about William/Baby mama. They're the kind of characters you and the show forget about until they pop up again in episode 5000. I hope Malcolm is dead but when TPTB don't show the body, nobody believes them and for good reason. 

Edited May 25, 2017 by Simba122504

[quarks]

Bad things:

1. Remember seasons 1 and 2, when Oliver Queen was a tactician? And by tactician, I mean "the kinda person who outthinks people in a fight instead of just shooting them with arrows," instead of "the kinda person who, knowing the crazy guy has a kill switch that will blow up everyone Oliver likes plus Samantha, decides to hug a traumatized kid who is all "uh, guy I barely know and haven't seen in a year and now seems to have a leather fetish, I've had a day, you know?" instead of, I don't know, SEARCHING CHASE FOR WEAPONS AND MAKING SURE CHASE COULDN'T USE THEM. Bonus negative numbers for letting Chase keep talking throughout this, WARNING OLIVER ABOUT WHAT HE WAS GOING TO DO. It's like Oliver wanted the episode to end on a cliffhanger!

2. Arrow, I know you could only schedule Manu Bennett for a few days of filming. That said, having his stunt double stomp around with a mask and questionable ADR was not, shall we say, convincing.

3. Chinese guys: For no apparent reason, we shall build a temple on an Evil Island which NO ONE WILL BE ABLE TO REACH FOR FIVE SEASONS, even though one group SPECIFICALLY CAME TO THE ISLAND to look for MAGIC ITEMS and thus presumably would have been LOOKING FOR TEMPLES.

Look, Arrow, I realize that we all want to forget the season four flashbacks, but even for you, this plot hole was stretching things.

4. I was genuinely hoping that in an episode that took place entirely on the island I could finally get through an episode of the Arrowverse this season without noticing a set problem. I need to learn to reduce my expectations. I would also like to know how a set that was originally on a mountain someplace earlier this season ended up on evil island this season.

It's annoying enough to see all of the plot/character decisions getting made thanks to the need to write to limited sets (for instance, the decision not to have Felicity or Curtis have day jobs this season, since Arrow apparently either couldn't afford to build another office set, or, with the arrival of Supergirl and its two oversized sets, the lot simply didn't have space on the soundstages for it). Berlanti, in the offhand chance that an intern is reading this and giving you tidbits, the set problems have moved from being mildly hilarious to outright distracting, especially for viewers like me watching all four shows.  Either add more location shoots or try to invest in another soundstage, I don't care, but do something. I'm not expecting season 1 again, but season 3 of Arrow/season 1 of Flash should be at least somewhat doable.

5. Timing. Arrow's always been fast paced, but tonight's episode had multiple scenes that really needed more time to be effective. It's not much of a shock when Harkness betrays Oliver when we've hardly had time to remember who he was. The Talia/Nyssa/Deathstroke scene easily needed another two to three minutes. Given that this episode ended about 45 seconds earlier than usual, what happened?

6. "For an absentee father, your devotion is impressive."

Yeah, no kidding there. For a crazy dude, Chase, you're on target for once. Look, I'm all for Oliver trying to save his kid.  And Oliver has previously gone to enormous lengths to save the people he cares about and the city - and frankly, he's looked far fiercer/more determined when heading after Thea, Felicity and, yes, to be fair, Laurel, making me feel in this case that the plot cared more about the kid than Oliver did. So, I'm willing to believe that Oliver would go to great lengths here too, especially since at first, he wasn't just saving the kid, but his friends, even if he mostly kept talking about the kid. I would have been a lot more emotionally invested if there'd been "Diggle's there! I'm not leaving him behind!" as well.  The second problem is that it's not just that Oliver hasn't seen the kid. The audience hasn't either. I'm frankly much more invested in Thea's survival, both physically and mentally, than in the kid's survival, because I barely know the kid. He pretty much only shows up on screen to get kidnapped. The constant kidnapping got tedious enough with Laurel.

So if you want me to care about characters in danger, you have to get me to care about the characters. With the kid, that's been an epic failure. 

To be fair, though, I was more invested in his survival than, say, Samantha's. So, point to the kid there.

And now, Black Siren:

Arrow, I want to be enthusiastic here. Really, I do.  To the point where, coming into this episode, I'd actually thought I'd make this section about the other candidate for The Worst, Samantha!  (Who lived down to her reputation tonight, justifying my thought!)

And then this episode.

Why are you doing this to me?

Number of ways Black Siren failed as a villain: 1) Failing to join Talia and the gang as they came to stop Oliver and company at the cages, allowing Team Arrow to free those prisoners and capture Evelyn, weakening Chase's group, 2) failing to check any of the incoming prisoners to see if they had, say, sonic collars that could be used to free themselves or other prisoners later, like, Black Siren, this is prisoner safety check 101, 3) getting completely played by Slade, 4) putting all of the prisoners into one room, allowing Dinah to release everyone with a single cry instead of needing to spend time on several cries/finding other prisoners (I realize that was part of the set problem discussed above, but still), 5) despite having a stronger Canary Cry/Siren Cry than Dinah,* only being able to scream her to a draw, 6) not taking out anyone else before this, 7) wasting time on metacomments like "You thought you could replace me HA HA HA HA HA" instead of taking down the good guys, which is your job, Black Siren! 8) completely failing to notice that someone was coming up behind her to hit her on the head, 9) getting hit on the head

For the record, I liked Laurel in the (rare) episodes where she was competent at anything. I had hopes that the same would be true for Black Siren. Alas, it seems that the one constant that applies to all versions of Dinah Laurel Lance in all versions of the mulitverse is incompetence.

* In Flash last season, Black Siren could take down an entire building with one scream. Dinah hasn't shown the ability to do anything equivalent to this.

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Honestly, if that's the way Malcolm went out, then Barrowman should get his money back on this finale. That was rushed crap, and even if Malcolm's a son of a bitch, he deserved a better death than...that shit. He's been around since season 1, man! Love him, hate him, or just are annoyed by him, that death scene was just...eh. 

Welp, sounds like Malcolm really is really most sincerely dead according to JB's FB post. I take him at his word on this one.

Damn.

[quarks]

23 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

I didn't like this either. How helpful of Chase to separate the fighters and non fighters so they could be sent off with a pat on their heads.

I think it also didn't help that by all appearances, they weren't all that separated - it didn't seem to take Slade, Oliver and Nyssa all that long to reach the Chinese Temple thing, or for everyone to reach the airfield and/or the boat afterwards.

Which admittedly was pretty inconsistent with the first two seasons, which seemed to emphasize that it took hours and hours to walk anywhere on that island - thus why Slade, Shado and Oliver were able to hide from Fyers and then the Amazo crew, and even the fourth season, where, uh, well, things happened, and I can only assume it took them so long to happen because of the size of the island, but I digress. Putting the non-fighters (and Thea) in one area and the fighters in another area turned out to be a genuine tactical mistake on Chase's part, since that made it easier for the fighters to break free. And this is a guy who supposedly doesn't make tactical mistakes - that's been the entire point of the last few episodes and even the last few seconds. I realize this was mostly done to get the stunts all in one place, but still.

[statsgirl]

8 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I guess I'm just not sure what emotional beats were missing? He had full faith that they'd take care of themselves - so there wasn't any reason for there to be any emotional beats. He was even the one telling Felicity for once it was going to be okay. 

Let's say then that they were rushed because there was too much to put into 43 minutes.

I don't want Malcolm to be dead, I just don't want him driving the plot.  He makes a great grace note.

9 minutes ago, quarks said:

Which admittedly was pretty inconsistent with the first two seasons, which seemed to emphasize that it took hours and hours to walk anywhere on that island - thus why Slade, Shado and Oliver were able to hide from Fyers and then the Amazo crew, and even the fourth season, where, uh, well, things happened, and I can only assume it took them so long to happen because of the size of the island

How are Thea, Felicity and Curtis going to make it all the way across the island to the safe boat?   They don't even know how to get there, not to mention dodging the land mines.

15 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

It's not speculation. That's the IQ the writers gave her in the Arrow Companion:

http://smoakmonster.tumblr.com/post/153130359196/thebelovedsaralance-felicity-smoaks-iq-170

I don't doubt that that's what the writers gave her.  I'm saying they made that up as a real score.  

Quote

Based on the historical findings of the Terman study and on biographical examples such as Richard Feynman, who had an IQ of 125 and went on to win the Nobel Prize in physics and become widely known as a genius [snip]

As long ago as 1937, Lewis Terman pointed out that error of estimation in IQ scoring increases as IQ score increases, so that there is less and less certainty about assigning a test-taker to one band of scores or another as one looks at higher bands.. Current IQ tests also have large error bands for high IQ scores.[94] As an underlying reality, such distinctions as those between "exceptionally gifted" and "profoundly gifted" have never been well established.

[Hiveminder]

20 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Didn't Oliver actually say it?

Possibly, but not that I recall. In any case, I had no problem with how it was done. I was just expecting it to be spelled out more. 

1 minute ago, statsgirl said:

Let's say then that they were rushed because there was too much to put into 43 minutes.

I don't want Malcolm to be dead, I just don't want him driving the plot.  He makes a great grace note.

How are Thea, Felicity and Curtis going to make it all the way across the island to the safe boat?   They don't even know how to get there, not to mention dodging the land mines.

I don't doubt that that's what the writers gave her.  I'm saying they made that up as a real score.  

I've always viewed IQ scores as fairly meaningless. I tested very highly in elementary school, and I am no genius, I assure you. 

[KirkB]

Eh. I have no reason to doubt Barrowman, but even if Malcolm is most sincerely dead that doesn't mean he can't come back in some form. Between multiple Earth dopplegangers, holographic imaging and shape shifting aliens, not to mention simply changing their mind and saying "whoops, turns out he didn't go boom" we can see him again if the writers want.

I agree with what a lot of you said. Given the previews, I was kind of hoping for more. Slade Wilson is fun to watch, and I was really looking forward to the Nyssa/Talia fight, only for it be pretty much a letdown.

I don't care any more about William now than I did before. Let's move on.

Oh look, they blew up the most heavily trafficked and well known, yet supposedly secret island in the world. And everyone died. So now Arrow is a just a show about a guy in a green hood raising a kid. Sounds like fun.

If they insist on bringing KC back, I insist on Black Siren showing up only to be knocked out in every appearance. It doesn't have to be Felicity and Quentin either, everyone should get a turn.

Forget the fireworks on Lian Yu. I want to see the big celebration in Star City when they realize this is the first summer in years where they have not suffered a major attack.

I honestly never thought there would come a point where I would rate Arrows finale lower than that of all three other DCU shows, but there you go. It should have been a lot more fun than it was. Maybe it would have been better with two hours.

Edited May 25, 2017 by KirkB

[nightwing877]

I have to say I completely forgot about Black Siren, so many characters in the final, and again the show ran shorter in length than usual, but television in general the ads keep getting larger had this been 10-20 years ago it would be 45-46 mins -which was needed. This episode moved so quickly, I wished it were longer. 

So many scene's needed to be longer. Nyssa/Talia was great but so short, hopefully both survive so we can get more in the future on them together.

Best parts seeing Nyssa in action and of course Moira's cameo appearance.

This was probably the most fun episode of Arrow I have liked in a long time. Best final since season 2, and the most I have enjoyed Arrow in 2 years.

Edited May 25, 2017 by nightwing877

[leopardprint]

All the father/child anvils falling all over the place make me worried for Diggle into S6 because he's a father who's kid has appeared more than Myson and he didn't even get a single beat about it. Not even a "Go get your son Oliver, we got this." It's like they forgot about him. 

Edited May 25, 2017 by leopardprint

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, wonderwall said:

 

No, I am not calling you Lucifer. It just seemed like a good "I win" gif for you to use. LOL

Edited May 25, 2017 by catrox14

[SmallScreenDiva]

I like this GIF of Oliver watching as Felicity walks away, having "not" said their goodbyes yet again. As much as he tried to be all optimistic that they'll have a chance to talk about Slade or their relationship later, Oliver of course knows there's a huge possibility they wouldn't be able to, that he could very well die.

[bijoux]

4 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

WTF things: MM did NOT know Thea was his kid until S2, FED. Stop acting like he was her secret loving protecting dad. Stupid show.

You know, that's one piece of retcon on this show that I can buy. Malcolm is able to convince himself of a lot of things. See planning to mow down an entire part of the city and killing whoever on the way is actually an act of humanitarianism. So, I have no trouble buying that he manage to swindle himself to believe he's always been this devoted father to Thea. Do Oliver and Thea even know when Malcolm found out about her, or did that knowledge die with Moira?

3 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Is the Japanese sub till there? We saw part of The Amazo too. I guess they could have made it to the bunker or just jumped in the ocean?

Oh, good guess about the ARGUS bunker.

3 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I liked that we got very little Curtis but, he still annoyed me...way to ruin a moment Curtis.

The Data quip was so weird after Malcolm apparently died. I know it's Malcolm, but someone still died, Curtis! Maybe Slade can diagnose whatever's wrong with him over the hiatus.

3 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

They seemingly freed Digger (I'm assuming Team Arrow locked him up along with Evelyn, although we didn't see him in a cage), so I'm guessing they also freed Evelyn. Either way, not too concerned. 

Digger disappeared with Talia, Slade taunted Evelyn about them leaving her behind.

 

1 hour ago, LeighAn said:

I did find it weird though that Samantha was checking out whether Felicity had a ring on the finger. Priorities.

Thank you. I started giving her the side eye then. This is what the mother of the century focuses on when she's been separated from her son for possibly weeks? 

40 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Didn't Oliver actually say it?

He did when Chase was blathering on about it in the boat. It was along the lines of, My friends can handle themselves. Which is really what I think the whole kidnapping deal from the last episode should have focused on, on the one hand there's a group of capable, trained adults who all knowingly chose the life they lead. On the other, there's a dumb kid who only got caught because of his biological connection to Oliver.

[nightwing877]

3 hours ago, ketose said:

Hopefully Thompson can make something out of her Timeless gig.

However, I would enjoy a Moira heavy set of 2012 flashbacks next year.

Yeah I was so moved by her

 

3 hours ago, popgoesculture said:

I decided to tune back in for the finale, since there was so much hype/I've kept an eye on what's been happening over the course of the season... and wow, I was I disappointed with the finale, which seemed to exemplify all the bad aspects of this show. Why do they always have to make Oliver so idiotic in order to plot their storylines? I remember Oliver from the first season being somewhat competent, and instead, they create the "twist" of Oliver seemingly betrayed by Slade (who's totally okay now? So he didn't threaten Felicity or hurt Thea when we last saw him?) TWICE to try to generate intrigue. Oliver spent years on this island; shouldn't he have some advantage and be able to out trick Chase on his home terrain? And, as everyone else has noted, not securing the dude who apparently is a deadman's switch away from blowing up your loved ones is ridiculous. 

The whole Malcolm/landmine thing was also ridiculous -- why didn't Felicity offer the same solution that Oliver came up with when he saved her? (Also, no one really believes Malcolm the MAGICIAN couldn't figure his way off of the landmine, unless the show suddenly hates JB.)

The pacing of the episode was awful. It would've been more effective had they spent more episodes on the island, trying to outwit Chase. Instead, the whole unraveling of Chase's plan was just... meh. We know you're not killing everyone on the cast, Arrow. 

The highlight was seeing Moira... it made me realize that the show really started slipping from the moment they decided to get rid of her. She brought in so much more depth to the show, and its possible storylines. Instead, we get this constant retread of Oliver's guilt (and Oliver, it's a bad sign that all your former enemies/allies can analyze you so easily). 

Yeah I was so moved by her appearance, it was the best moment of the final for me seeing her reaction to Oliver being alive. She never should of died, because she grounded the show and brought so much. I would of just as easily accepted the show if Thea had been killed off instead of Moira, and then continuing the Moira/Malcolm feud. I would of much liked the build-up of Slade being left for a later season, and not seeing Moira die so early and him being a villain much later. Tommy being alive over Malcolm and coming back for Thea, so many things they could of done with this show. But yeah Moira died so early in the series.

3 hours ago, ketose said:

Hopefully Thompson can make something out of her Timeless gig.

However, I would enjoy a Moira heavy set of 2012 flashbacks next year.

I would love to see more of Moira again. 

[bijoux]

Intelectually, I get a lot about that final sequence. It connects Oliver to both his parents. Chase duplicates the situation Robert was in 10 years ago, does he put his son before everything and everyone else? The flashback to his first call to Moira contrasts him as son and father. And while I agree with absolutely everyone on the praise rightfully heaped on ST, SA really did great as well. I loved how his voice changed and it felt like pre-island Oliver going to his mom for comfort because that's what he slipped into upon hearing her voice after so long. Excellent and touching. Saying all that, it failed for me emotionally, because you know what, Robert and Moira were actual parents to Oliver. Apart from the biological aspect, that's not the case here. 

So instead of taking all this stuff in emotionally, I'm left snickering at Chase's jab about the devoted absentee father.