S03.E03: The Return: Parts 3 and 4

[NeenerNeener]

On 5/24/2017 at 8:48 PM, dosodog said:

And Earl's brother from My Name is Earl.  Wakey, wakey.  Hands off your snakey.  I can't think of his name, but I can think of that.

 

Ethan Suplee. 

So far since Friday night I've watched Noah Solloway have hallucinations on The Affair, John Rayburn have hallucinations on Bloodline, all the weirdness that is the latest (or any) episode of American Gods, and now this TP revival. It's been a strange holiday weekend.

[JustCrazy]

I liked episode 4.  It must have felt great to be finally able to take a leak after 25 years of holding it.  The man's a camel.

[Peanut6711]

There's artsy and there's awful and this is just gawd awful! It's boring; there's no plot. The special effects are simply cringe worthy. The opening scenes out of the box with Cooper looked like a Photoshop extraction gone bad. And I'm convinced that between the blurry images, pounding noises, and flashing lights Lynch's goal is to give everyone a headache ten minutes into the show. 

12 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I was so glad that someone on my twitter timeline mentioned the vomiting before I watched this because I knew it was coming and I just covered my eyes and ears for it. I can't do vomiting, man! 

And that! I'm right there with you.  Quickest way to ruin a show for me.  The original TP had way more class than vomiting. 

Lynch's calendar must be stuck on April 1st because I'm convinced this redo is a bad joke for TP fans. 

On 5/23/2017 at 2:29 AM, Happy Harpy said:

I identified my major problem. The scenes are just too damn long, and with no character development or plot to support them, their emotional impact is lost (Bobby's crying) their humor is lost (Wally) or the character moments dissolve into unrelated crap (Gordon and Denise) or exaggeration (Lucy/Andy). Editing is love.

My other major problem, I need Dale Cooper. The real Dale Cooper. 25 years in the Black Lodge would have affected him, traumatized him, OK, makes sense for once. But I don't care about Dougie or doppelganger and less about Lost in Suburbia. Get his butt back to Twin Peaks.

Also, my finale major problem. Where is Audrey? Where is Norma? Where is (and I can't believe I say this, and yes we've seen her for a second) Shelly? Where is Big Ed? Where is Mike the redhead? Where is Nadine? I've waited for 25 years to know what happened to those characters, and in four episode all I got are glimpses at a handful of them while the lion's share goes to new characters or new iterations of Coop that I never wanted in the first place.

Amen to that! You identified many of my major problems with this show too. 

And the Bobby crying thing... ridiculous, unnecessary, and unlikely. Sure Bobby was shaken and upset when Laura was brutally murdered 25 years ago, but he recovered pretty quickly.  He spent most of the original show sexing it up with Leo's wife and being bad boy cute but self involved Bobby.  I'm not buying Lynch's poor attempt at sentimentality now. Bobby and everyone else in Twin Peaks moved on after Laura; too bad he can't produce a show that actually depicts what the original residents are doing.  I get that Lynch has a boner for Kyle McLaughlin but we don't need 3 Coopers.

[Pete Martell]

43 minutes ago, Peanut6711 said:

And the Bobby crying thing... ridiculous, unnecessary, and unlikely. Sure Bobby was shaken and upset when Laura was brutally murdered 25 years ago, but he recovered pretty quickly.  He spent most of the original show sexing it up with Leo's wife and being bad boy cute but self involved Bobby.  I'm not buying Lynch's poor attempt at sentimentality now. Bobby and everyone else in Twin Peaks moved on after Laura; too bad he can't produce a show that actually depicts what the original residents are doing.  I get that Lynch has a boner for Kyle McLaughlin but we don't need 3 Coopers.

I thought it was likely for Bobby. He was always highly strung and highly emotional when he was caught off guard. He loved (maybe still loves, I don't know) Shelley, but he also did a lot of play-acting with her, trying to be the big man. Then he got bored with actual responsibilities, so he did more play-acting with Audrey and Ben. When he was confronted about his feelings for Laura, or when his father spoke with him about the dream he had of Bobby's future, he would either struggle not to fall apart or he'd just completely fall apart. 

The show didn't really go into it as much as the other material but Laura was deep in Bobby's head, and was his gateway into all kinds of things that he later used as a mask (sex, drugs) to hide who he really is. I assume that his deputy role is another mask to hide who he really is, and he can't hide that from Laura. He could never hide anything from her. 

I don't think they could ever repeat the power of those original sequences, and I imagine it may have been deliberately egged up a bit (as Andy and Lucy are) as some pseudo-parody of the old show, but I was glad they had that scene. For me Bobby's most important relationship was Laura and he's one of the main characters beyond her mother who would be able to express just how devastating her loss was to the people in her life. I felt like the show moved more and more away from that and just started to recast her as this girl who died and all the men in her life had a sad before they moved on to their next lady loves and angsty struggles, so I appreciated that jolt back to the early days.

[loki567]

I thought the Bobby crying scene was actually pretty touching. I could see if he tried not to think about Laura's death for 20+ years, seeing her picture could suddenly bring those emotions up all at once. 

[jsbt]

I prefer to think that Bobby as the deputy is fulfilling his father's dream for him. But I guess we'll see.

I think most emotion in Lynch's work is both serious and earnest and also at times satirical. In the case of Bobby, no, I don't think it was satire. I think he meant it.

Edited May 29, 2017 by jsbt

[Pete Martell]

43 minutes ago, loki567 said:

I thought the Bobby crying scene was actually pretty touching. I could see if he tried not to think about Laura's death for 20+ years, seeing her picture could suddenly bring those emotions up all at once. 

At first when I saw it I thought, "They can't recreate that scene," but then I realized Lynch wasn't really trying to recreate it, and it was just a brief reminder of the characters and their relationship. I thought Dana Ashbrook played that so well. Robert Forster's befuddled "who the hell are these people?" look was also a sly bit of awareness of the mania of it all. I loved Andy and Lucy not knowing how to react to his tears and Lucy reaching for Andy's hand. The sweetness and love of that moment was surprisingly touching to me. A reminder that those little moments are still important to the narrative even with all the craziness.

2 minutes ago, jsbt said:

I prefer to think that Bobby as the deputy is fulfilling his father's dream for him. But I guess we'll see.

I think most emotion in Lynch's work is both serious and earnest and also at times satirical. In the case of Bobby, no, I don't think it was satire. I think he meant it.

I think Bobby would want to do his father proud. I don't know if he's completely on the up and up but I'd like to think he is. I just think deep down he will likely be more torn up than he would let anyone know. Seeing Laura again would bring all that to the surface for him.

[jsbt]

I think it's also very important that Lynch - who works on the sound design himself - only used Laura's famous theme then, not before. That's the first time it's been heard in the new show.

[Nashville]

On 5/24/2017 at 7:48 PM, dosodog said:

It's not the bunny.  Or is it the bunny?  No.  It's not the bunny.

It could be the bunny.  Lucy said she ate one and only one of the bunnies - but two were missing from the package. 

So who ate the other missing bunny?

Only problem I had with Ep4 was Michael Cera's character.  WTmotherlovin'F.  And I have to wonder if 'Wally' was named after the late, lamented Waldo.

[peachmangosteen]

3 hours ago, Nashville said:

It could be the bunny.  Lucy said she ate one and only one of the bunnies - but two were missing from the package. 

So who ate the other missing bunny?

I kept thinking about that, too. It was driving me kind of crazy. I guess maybe that bunny was already missing when it was found. I don't know if we're supposed to remember the chocolate bunnies from the original series or not lol.

[Peanut6711]

Twin Peaks Part Deux is about as deep as dirty water.

While FWWM tried to spin a world where all men were utterly enthralled or under some spell of Laura Palmer despite how crazy, bitchy, or doped up she acted, the actual narrative of the original TP was different. It actually told a compelling (albeit tragic) story of a girl who lived two lives, two separate personas—the public one where she was a straight A student, Homecoming queen who did charity work after school in contrast to the secret night life where she engaged in orgies, prostitution, and an extensive drug habit either to escape her nightmare home life or because of the evil inherent in it.  While Bobby was a part of both worlds Laura engaged in, it was clear early on that in her good girl role he had become a façade to help hide her real sex life, playing the companion role of football playing boyfriend to her Homecoming queen image. The original Twin Peaks did a good job with the theme of ‘appearances can be deceiving’ and exposing the fakeness behind high school social structures. The reality was that even before she died (as Bobby points out to Truman and Cooper in scene where he and Shelley are at the station) Bobby was moving beyond Laura and engaging in an affair with Shelley who ultimately he really loved and loved him back. Laura was too broken to truly love anyone in an honest, romantic way. But the show gave many nods to Bobby and Shelley’s playful and romantic relationship and the bond they shared having both hooked up with the wrong people (Bobby w/Laura and Shelley w/Leo) as errors of their youth.  While other relationships on the show at the end where left with some ambiguity, the only nod to an HEA was Bobby and Shelley’s.  He’d moved on from Laura; it was pretty clear.

But Lynch doesn’t seem to have a handle on his characters. Or maybe he’s just getting dementia. What he's produced so far hasn’t paid homage to the original show well at all.  What used to be a world of quirky and unique individuals in a small town existing in a timeless era has become a bad parody of itself. Andy and Lucy who never were the sharpest tools in the shed now seem even worse, like caricatures of themselves. The town itself also seems like a bad mirage.  Based off the bar and the sheriff’s station it appears the population has significantly grown. But it’s being done in a way that confuses what Twin Peaks was even more.  Whereas in the original, the sheriff’s station was unified and stuck together, now we have Lucy stuck in a dated way of life, ignorant of current technology while some new back room of the station operates in the modern age of technology, dealing with modern problems of DUI and teenage overdose. It sends a message for sure, but not one that fits the ideology of what Twin Peaks once was.

[iMonrey]

I watched about 40 minutes of Part 3 and then decided I had better things to do with 2 hours of my time. I'm out. 

I'm sure this is all very smart and deep and it all means something but I don't care. It's like one long fever dream and I have no interest in trying to figure it out. I bet if I dropped acid first I'd probably be blown away - or so freaked out by it I'd kill myself. Or maybe if I smoked a little weed first I'd be fascinated with it. But since I don't do either of those things this just isn't for me.

[Nashville]

4 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I kept thinking about that, too. It was driving me kind of crazy. I guess maybe that bunny was already missing when it was found. I don't know if we're supposed to remember the chocolate bunnies from the original series or not lol.

I DID!!!  I'm so proud of myself!  In the pilot, right after Cooper has found the safe deposit box key in Laura's first diary:  "Diane, I'm holding in my hand a small box of chocolate bunnies...."

And here's the kicker - all four bunnies are present in the package!

So - Lucy ate one - who ate the other???  Inquiring minds want to know....

 

 

Edited May 29, 2017 by Nashville
Bunnies!!!

[Happy Harpy]

14 hours ago, Peanut6711 said:

And the Bobby crying thing... ridiculous, unnecessary, and unlikely. Sure Bobby was shaken and upset when Laura was brutally murdered 25 years ago, but he recovered pretty quickly.  He spent most of the original show sexing it up with Leo's wife and being bad boy cute but self involved Bobby. 

I think that Laura was Bobby's one true love, and he loved her more deeply than he let show. He wasn't strong enough or maybe too much in rebellion against his father, so he is responsible for his choices and offered "an angle", but Laura did corrupt him. IIRC, both of them admitted to it. He went into drug trafficking for her, initially. He loved her that much. He cried the first time they had sex, hinting at a sensitive nature, and she laughed at his face. So I've always imagined that Bobby kept a deep narcissistic wound but also pretended and tried to not fall in love after her for reasons of self-preservation; he wasn't over Laura and what their toxic relationship did to him.

So Bobby's crying rang quite true to me. It was moving to see him cry, especially now that he seemed reconciled with his father, and led a life that his father would be proud of. He left all this behind for 25 years. I could imagine he had all those emotions and memories he repressed for so many years surfacing; it was one of the rare moments when Twin Peak's history came into play so far in the revival. It reminded me of Bobby's confession to Jacoby, and Bobby and Garland's beautiful sharing scene at the Double R. Which is why I regret that it wasn't edited properly, and had no context or character development to sustain it within the new show, because it could have been so much more powerful.

Oh and ICAM, even a lil' bit of Audrey would certainly make everything better. Where.Is.My.Girl? (Not with that awful Smarmy McBland, if I rely on the cast list, so that's something?)

[paigow]

I find it hard to believe Harry S. Truman hired Bobby as a deputy...if Hawk & Andy were dead, maybe...but there seems to be no shortage of white male deputy candidates in Twin Peaks....

[paigow]

The casino manager that paid Dougie / Dale the jackpots is definitely not a super evil mastermind. So who is everyone scared of? If the casino is run by the Black Lodge, then why are they giving away the money?

[peachmangosteen]

3 hours ago, Nashville said:

I DID!!!  I'm so proud of myself!  In the pilot, right after Cooper has found the safe deposit box key in Laura's first diary:  "Diane, I'm holding in my hand a small box of chocolate bunnies...."

Wow, how could I forget that?! Also, good catch at all the bunnies being there at the time. So, maybe it really is about the bunny.

2 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

Oh and ICAM, even a lil' bit of Audrey would certainly make everything better. Where.Is.My.Girl?

This! I honestly think like 85% of my meh feeling over this series so far is that Audrey hasn't been seen yet.

[Pete Martell]

11 hours ago, Peanut6711 said:

Twin Peaks Part Deux is about as deep as dirty water.

While FWWM tried to spin a world where all men were utterly enthralled or under some spell of Laura Palmer despite how crazy, bitchy, or doped up she acted, the actual narrative of the original TP was different. It actually told a compelling (albeit tragic) story of a girl who lived two lives, two separate personas—the public one where she was a straight A student, Homecoming queen who did charity work after school in contrast to the secret night life where she engaged in orgies, prostitution, and an extensive drug habit either to escape her nightmare home life or because of the evil inherent in it.  While Bobby was a part of both worlds Laura engaged in, it was clear early on that in her good girl role he had become a façade to help hide her real sex life, playing the companion role of football playing boyfriend to her Homecoming queen image. The original Twin Peaks did a good job with the theme of ‘appearances can be deceiving’ and exposing the fakeness behind high school social structures. The reality was that even before she died (as Bobby points out to Truman and Cooper in scene where he and Shelley are at the station) Bobby was moving beyond Laura and engaging in an affair with Shelley who ultimately he really loved and loved him back. Laura was too broken to truly love anyone in an honest, romantic way. But the show gave many nods to Bobby and Shelley’s playful and romantic relationship and the bond they shared having both hooked up with the wrong people (Bobby w/Laura and Shelley w/Leo) as errors of their youth.  While other relationships on the show at the end where left with some ambiguity, the only nod to an HEA was Bobby and Shelley’s.  He’d moved on from Laura; it was pretty clear.

But Lynch doesn’t seem to have a handle on his characters. Or maybe he’s just getting dementia. What he's produced so far hasn’t paid homage to the original show well at all.  What used to be a world of quirky and unique individuals in a small town existing in a timeless era has become a bad parody of itself. Andy and Lucy who never were the sharpest tools in the shed now seem even worse, like caricatures of themselves. The town itself also seems like a bad mirage.  Based off the bar and the sheriff’s station it appears the population has significantly grown. But it’s being done in a way that confuses what Twin Peaks was even more.  Whereas in the original, the sheriff’s station was unified and stuck together, now we have Lucy stuck in a dated way of life, ignorant of current technology while some new back room of the station operates in the modern age of technology, dealing with modern problems of DUI and teenage overdose. It sends a message for sure, but not one that fits the ideology of what Twin Peaks once was.

For me the movie and the early material of the show aren't all that different. The main difference for me is that the movie was actually about her. The show always had her as an object, but they were more skillful at doing this in an intelligent way early on, whereas by season 2 she mostly just seemed to become some girl that our men had to get over (whether it be James, or even that sleazy asshole Ben Horne), while the women were abandoned in the narrative (the show initially managed to believably present that Donna both resented and loved Laura, but this was marred by making a hash of Donna's character in season 2). 

Unlike James, who I think was only truly compelling as a character when Laura was alive (because he existed to show her struggle - a "pure" man that she clung to in her last weeks or months before sure death), Bobby was a pretty compelling character even outside of Laura. And part of the reason is because, like you say, he did move on from Laura. I guess the difference in how we see Bobby is that while I do think he loved Shelley and I'd also agree with you that Shelley is his true love, I don't think he ever was capable of "moving on" as much as just continuing to play games. He was her edgy boyfriend who could help save her from Leo. Once he did "save" her (sort of), and they had to deal with the reality of caring for Leo, he pretty much just left her to her own devices while he played big businessman with the Hornes and made clumsy passes at Audrey. Another game. When the show ended he seemed to be finally growing up a bit, and if he actually is a deputy for good reasons and it's not all some con, then maybe he actually has stayed grown up, but the boy we saw weeping in Dr. Jacoby's office never really went away in those first two seasons (at least for me) - they just dropped it as they bounced Bobby from one odd plot to another. He was dependent on Laura, as some sick bond. She was the person who helped make him who he was, and I think that's why he just fell apart when he saw her again, the homecoming queen, smiling and "happy."

I do agree with you that Andy and Lucy are a bit more of parodies now, and maybe they are a send-up of the old Twin Peaks nostalgia. It's tough for me to say because I have to separate Andy and Lucy not from the original show to now, but from season 1 to season 2 to this show. I liked their relationship and characters quite a bit in season 1. In season 2, I thought Lucy became a much colder and somewhat more unpleasant character with the meandering Dick Tremayne plot (to the point where I actually wondered if the reason they brought her sister in was to have someone more unpleasant to make her seem a bit nicer). I felt like she became a much more typical TV character of that era, rather than the more original creation she'd been before. The new show seems to be closer to season 1 Andy and Lucy, albeit dimmer. I would have said it was a harsher look, but then you have the moments like their holding hands when Bobby saw the photo of Laura, or even their pride in Wally (who is an idiot, but I didn't get the vibe that we were supposed to sneer at them for being proud of him - I think we were supposed to be happy for them), that are kinder, more innocent. It's a tightrope but for the most part it works for me. 

I don't think the old sheriff's office could have ever been the same without Harry and Dale. If they'd had Harry's brother be just like him, then I think it would have been disrespectful to Michael Ontkean and wouldn't have worked, so having his brother be distant and bewildered is a way I can understand them going. I do see what you mean about the changes in the place and how it has changed the tone - I suppose I'm alright with it both because I feel like the tone was already changing somewhat over the course of the original show and also because I think it is a part of modern times while still honoring the past (and guys like the one who is so dismissive of the Log Lady - who is still treated with reverence in the narrative - tells me we're supposed to see these new people as a bit rude and arrogant, and likely needing to learn to respect the past the way the original group does). 

I realize this is all word salad and probably not worth reading. I guess it just boils down to having different views of the original show. 

Edited May 30, 2017 by Pete Martell

[dosodog]

6 hours ago, Nashville said:

I DID!!!  I'm so proud of myself!  In the pilot, right after Cooper has found the safe deposit box key in Laura's first diary:  "Diane, I'm holding in my hand a small box of chocolate bunnies...."

And here's the kicker - all four bunnies are present in the package!

So - Lucy ate one - who ate the other???  Inquiring minds want to know....

 

 

NICE!!!!!!

That scene was silly for me - I enjoyed the exchange about it being/not being the bunny. It also reminded me of the silly exchanges from the old show.

But there might be an actual point behind the bunny!

I was already going to stay with the show no matter what and now I'm going to be obsessing over chocolate bunnies.   

[dwmckim]

On 5/24/2017 at 5:48 PM, dosodog said:

 

There are theories out there that delve into Native American symbolism that was used through out Twin Peaks.  Owls ,sycamore trees, lodges.

 

Check out Mark Frost's "The Secret History of Twin Peaks" - i've been pleasantly surprised that even though interviews around the time of the book's release indicated that the show itself wouldn't tie into the book that much, in actuality there's a lot going on that seems very connected to it.  When The Log Lady said the something missing ties into Hawk's heritage, i jumped up and screamed "THE BOOK!"  Many other moments i ended up doing the same.

[Pete Martell]

13 minutes ago, dwmckim said:

Check out Mark Frost's "The Secret History of Twin Peaks" - i've been pleasantly surprised that even though interviews around the time of the book's release indicated that the show itself wouldn't tie into the book that much, in actuality there's a lot going on that seems very connected to it.  When The Log Lady said the something missing ties into Hawk's heritage, i jumped up and screamed "THE BOOK!"  Many other moments i ended up doing the same.

I had that reaction with Wally's mention of Lewis & Clark.

[tennisgurl]

Of all the weird thing we have seen on this show so far, I think Michael Cera randomly showing up in his old costume from Crystal Skull doing a weird Brando impression might be the weirdest thing I've seen on this show so far. And this is a show where Agent Cooper had some kind of duplicate created to win lotto money...or something.

I actually thought Bobby crying when he saw the picture of Laura (with her theme music blasting) was one of my favorite moments so far of the show. I think that Bobby really did love Laura, and while he jumped right to hooking up with someone else, it seemed like he was just trying to play Grown Up with her to deal with his messed up feelings. That mixed with a certain amount of selfishness all made sense to me. I can see him pushing those feelings down, and being hit with them seeing her picture. It actually felt like classic Twin Peaks for a second there.

[dwmckim]

Somehow i suspect in casinos across the country this week, each will have at least one person in it yelling "Helloooo" at all the slot machines they play to the total bewilderment of everyone else around them.

[Fable]

10 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I'm sure this is all very smart and deep and it all means something but I don't care. It's like one long fever dream and I have no interest in trying to figure it out. I bet if I dropped acid first I'd probably be blown away - or so freaked out by it I'd kill myself. Or maybe if I smoked a little weed first I'd be fascinated with it. But since I don't do either of those things this just isn't for me.

I felt that way during the first episode, but after watching the rest of them, I laughed and laughed.  Perhaps they will bring things around and form a full circle, and eventually things will make sense,  but my impression is that the show is making fun of itself, and I kind of love it. 

Edited May 30, 2017 by Fable

[Nashville]

Does it strike anybody else, though, that this new season so far seems intent on writing Andy and Lucy as imbecilic caricatures of their original incarnations?  I mean - the original Andy and Lucy were both pretty simple folk, but they weren't the raging morons their version 2.0s seem to be.  The bit with Lucy's apparent incomprehension regarding cell phones?  Stupid.  Hell, police cars had radios in the 90s; it's not like mobile communication would be such a freakin' mindblaster.  Disappointing.

[Guest]

Yeah, Lucy and Andy's character quirks seem to be dialed to 11 at this point. I'm sure there's a reason for it, and @Nashville's find of the chocolate bunnies from the first episode does help tip my hand to help to forgive that a little as I'm sure there's some payout down the road. 

I watched the end of episode 4 again last night and was haunted by creepy Evil Cooper's appearance scene with Gordon at the police station. That scene is so intensely disturbing. Cooper looks downright dead inside and his monotone, echoing voice gave me the creeps. Although, I gotta say that his delivery of "I left messages" helped break my case of the creeps for a few seconds and gave me a big, old belly laugh. 

[Nashville]

3 hours ago, Giant Misfit said:

I watched the end of episode 4 again last night and was haunted by creepy Evil Cooper's appearance scene with Gordon at the police station. That scene is so intensely disturbing. Cooper looks downright dead inside and his monotone, echoing voice gave me the creeps. 

Yep - and EC's word-for-word repetition of sentences he'd just said should be a red flag monstrous enough for even a Fibbie to pick up on.  EC sounded like a cheap tape recorder.

Edited May 30, 2017 by Nashville

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here are the Previously.TV posts on the episodes!

 

Logs, Coffee, and Bob: Unbreakable Dale Cooper

One of three Dale Coopers stands on a box in space, while Lucy cries about chocolate bunnies.

 

Logs, Coffee & Bob: Dougie’s First Breakfast

Dale is Dougie is Mr. Bean, Naomi Watts is Titus, Michael Cera is Kumail Nanjiani, and Nene Leakes is Renata from Big Little Lies. They did say there would be a lot of cameos!

[Moxie Cat]

14 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Of all the weird thing we have seen on this show so far, I think Michael Cera randomly showing up in his old costume from Crystal Skull doing a weird Brando impression might be the weirdest thing I've seen on this show so far.

Wally was dressed like Marlon Brando in the movie "the Wild One" - apparently Wally is a wee bit obsessed with Brando due to his birthday! And it was Shia LeBeouf who was in Crystal Skull, not Cera. (Maybe Shia's look in CS was an homage to the Wild One?)

I didn't hate the Cera scene - it felt reminiscent of the odd bits and characters who were on the original show. What I DID mind is how long the scene went on, but that is a flaw that is present in way too many scenes of this reboot.

[tennisgurl]

Ahhhh @Moxie Cat your right! I don't know why I was mixing up Shia LeBeouf and Michael Cera! I think all the weirdness is clouding my brain.

[itainttippithebird]

I have been meaning to submit an I Am Not a Crackpot about a moratorium on tv vomiting for years now! So it was bittersweet to hear an impromptu one in this episode! FULL CO-SIGNED

[dosodog]

Normally I'm only obsessed with chocolate bunnies at Easter.  However.  Nashville got my research juices flowing and this is the best theory I have found.

Spoiler

So on the internet the theory about the bunnies is that it's the clue for Hawk to find Cooper and the lodge.  Diane will lead Hawk to the diary which was mentioned with the bunnies.

In FWWM, Anne visits Laura, who is alive and tells her to write in her diary that Cooper is alive and trapped in the lodge and that evil Cooper is on the loose.

At one time, Cooper told Hawk he wanted him to find him.  Also, there was a conversation between Coop and Hawk about lodges and their meaning in Hawk's culture.  You have to pass through the lodge, but if you're not ready, the black lodge will annihilate you.  Hawk's people call it Dweller on the Threshold. 

AND!  Several Native cultures refer to Manabozho.  Who is a trickster and a shape shifter.

AND A RABBIT. But not chocolate. 

Hee heeeeee! I am giddy! 

[Peanut6711]

On 5/29/2017 at 6:01 PM, Pete Martell said:

For me the movie and the early material of the show aren't all that different. The main difference for me is that the movie was actually about her. The show always had her as an object, but they were more skillful at doing this in an intelligent way early on, whereas by season 2 she mostly just seemed to become some girl that our men had to get over (whether it be James, or even that sleazy asshole Ben Horne), while the women were abandoned in the narrative (the show initially managed to believably present that Donna both resented and loved Laura, but this was marred by making a hash of Donna's character in season 2). 

Unlike James, who I think was only truly compelling as a character when Laura was alive (because he existed to show her struggle - a "pure" man that she clung to in her last weeks or months before sure death), Bobby was a pretty compelling character even outside of Laura. And part of the reason is because, like you say, he did move on from Laura. I guess the difference in how we see Bobby is that while I do think he loved Shelley and I'd also agree with you that Shelley is his true love, I don't think he ever was capable of "moving on" as much as just continuing to play games. He was her edgy boyfriend who could help save her from Leo. Once he did "save" her (sort of), and they had to deal with the reality of caring for Leo, he pretty much just left her to her own devices while he played big businessman with the Hornes and made clumsy passes at Audrey. Another game. When the show ended he seemed to be finally growing up a bit, and if he actually is a deputy for good reasons and it's not all some con, then maybe he actually has stayed grown up, but the boy we saw weeping in Dr. Jacoby's office never really went away in those first two seasons (at least for me) - they just dropped it as they bounced Bobby from one odd plot to another. He was dependent on Laura, as some sick bond. She was the person who helped make him who he was, and I think that's why he just fell apart when he saw her again, the homecoming queen, smiling and "happy."

I do agree with you that Andy and Lucy are a bit more of parodies now, and maybe they are a send-up of the old Twin Peaks nostalgia. It's tough for me to say because I have to separate Andy and Lucy not from the original show to now, but from season 1 to season 2 to this show. I liked their relationship and characters quite a bit in season 1. In season 2, I thought Lucy became a much colder and somewhat more unpleasant character with the meandering Dick Tremayne plot (to the point where I actually wondered if the reason they brought her sister in was to have someone more unpleasant to make her seem a bit nicer). I felt like she became a much more typical TV character of that era, rather than the more original creation she'd been before. The new show seems to be closer to season 1 Andy and Lucy, albeit dimmer. I would have said it was a harsher look, but then you have the moments like their holding hands when Bobby saw the photo of Laura, or even their pride in Wally (who is an idiot, but I didn't get the vibe that we were supposed to sneer at them for being proud of him - I think we were supposed to be happy for them), that are kinder, more innocent. It's a tightrope but for the most part it works for me. 

I don't think the old sheriff's office could have ever been the same without Harry and Dale. If they'd had Harry's brother be just like him, then I think it would have been disrespectful to Michael Ontkean and wouldn't have worked, so having his brother be distant and bewildered is a way I can understand them going. I do see what you mean about the changes in the place and how it has changed the tone - I suppose I'm alright with it both because I feel like the tone was already changing somewhat over the course of the original show and also because I think it is a part of modern times while still honoring the past (and guys like the one who is so dismissive of the Log Lady - who is still treated with reverence in the narrative - tells me we're supposed to see these new people as a bit rude and arrogant, and likely needing to learn to respect the past the way the original group does). 

I realize this is all word salad and probably not worth reading. I guess it just boils down to having different views of the original show. 

I agree that Laura definitely corrupted Bobby and his experiences with her shaped him, which was fitting for teens their age. Perhaps if Bobby's crying in the current show was put into more of a context, I wouldn't have found it so eye-roll worthy, but as it was with all the other "stuff" going on in the redo, I just found it too much for all the years that have passed. Now James--I could see him still crying over Laura or at least getting emotional over her picture. 

I also agree that there was a point in the show where Bobby was trying to be more adult than he really was (the whole insurance thing w/Leo and then his job w/Ben and Audrey as you mentioned). But it also sticks out to me (probably since I just watched those last few episodes again the other week before Part I aired) that Bobby got a wake up call when he saw Gordon kissing Shelley. After that he stopped acting like a jerk and taking her for granted. Add in his father's dream about his future and it seemed like they were one of the few couples on the show where the message was clear.  I'll be curious to see if they are still together or not if we ever get to see more than 5 minutes here and there of the old cast. I hope they are as I always thought the actors had good chemistry together. 

I was never a fan of the Andy/Lucy subplots in the original. As you mentioned Lucy got to be kind of a pain and the whole love triangle w/Dick and the "who's the daddy" storyline was annoying. But when they first appeared in Part 1/2 I didn't have a problem with them. Then we hit Part 3/4 and it's like they've been stuck in the lodges! I expect Cooper to be amazed at newer technology and that would be a great entertaining angle if we ever get the real Coop back. "Diane, I'm messaging you now on this app called Facebook. You'll need to accept my friend request first though..." LOL

On 5/30/2017 at 4:03 AM, Nashville said:

Does it strike anybody else, though, that this new season so far seems intent on writing Andy and Lucy as imbecilic caricatures of their original incarnations?  I mean - the original Andy and Lucy were both pretty simple folk, but they weren't the raging morons their version 2.0s seem to be.  The bit with Lucy's apparent incomprehension regarding cell phones?  Stupid.  Hell, police cars had radios in the 90s; it's not like mobile communication would be such a freakin' mindblaster.  Disappointing.

Amen! The whole cell phone thing was utterly ridiculous.  The original show itself was only a few years away from cell phones becoming pretty popular. Surely their son Wally would have kept his parents up to date during his teen years.  If the new show was being true to Lucy's character, she wouldn't pass out in disbelief over modern communication, she'd just over-explain how it works.  "Hawk, the Log Lady has tagged you in a tweet on Twitter. That's the little birdie icon where you can't use more than 140 characters, which includes the hashtag symbol which is also the pound sign below the number 9 on the telephone keypad..."

[Pete Martell]

1 hour ago, Peanut6711 said:

Amen! The whole cell phone thing was utterly ridiculous.  The original show itself was only a few years away from cell phones becoming pretty popular. Surely their son Wally would have kept his parents up to date during his teen years.  If the new show was being true to Lucy's character, she wouldn't pass out in disbelief over modern communication, she'd just over-explain how it works.  "Hawk, the Log Lady has tagged you in a tweet on Twitter. That's the little birdie icon where you can't use more than 140 characters, which includes the hashtag symbol which is also the pound sign below the number 9 on the telephone keypad..."

For some reason I thought Lucy couldn't do phones the first time around. 

There were so many "idiot Andy" moments the first time (he couldn't use tape, he got hit on the head with a board, he thought being sterile was being clean), but I agree that Lucy has changed. I've seen some fans speculate she will have early onset dementia. I hope not. 

I'm really hoping Bobby and Shelly are still together. Based on her flirting with the guy I mostly still know from Brothers & Sisters, I assume they either aren't, or she will cheat on him now that he's 'respectable.' 

[jsbt]

Lucy had her share of phone issues, yeah.

I don't dispute that the material is a bit over the top, but that's Lynch. I'm okay with it provided she's proven her mettle elsewhere. I remember Kimmy Robertson saying Lynch told her not to play it for laughs when she was doing her phone spiel in the pilot - 'she wants to be very precise about every single thing.' It is funny and it's supposed to be, but Lucy still has her own internal logic.

[Peanut6711]

48 minutes ago, Pete Martell said:

For some reason I thought Lucy couldn't do phones the first time around. 

There were so many "idiot Andy" moments the first time (he couldn't use tape, he got hit on the head with a board, he thought being sterile was being clean), but I agree that Lucy has changed. I've seen some fans speculate she will have early onset dementia. I hope not. 

I'm really hoping Bobby and Shelly are still together. Based on her flirting with the guy I mostly still know from Brothers & Sisters, I assume they either aren't, or she will cheat on him now that he's 'respectable.' 

I remember an episode or two about the phone system at the police station and I seem to recall Lucy just drug out the process, transferring calls around and then being very specific how to pick up the line. 

I fear too that Bobby and Shelley are apart based on Shelley's"look" at that guy in the bar.  I'd much rather see them together and how they are parenting their kids. Always thought that the new show should utilize "legacy" characters (the kids of original cast) who could easily be around the same age they were during the original run.  I think Mathew Lilliard's character as the principal being framed would be far more relevant if his story was happening in Twin Peaks, he was the high school principal there, and the current students were children of characters like Bobby, Shelley, Audrey, James, Mike, etc. 

[Pete Martell]

4 hours ago, Peanut6711 said:

I remember an episode or two about the phone system at the police station and I seem to recall Lucy just drug out the process, transferring calls around and then being very specific how to pick up the line. 

I fear too that Bobby and Shelley are apart based on Shelley's"look" at that guy in the bar.  I'd much rather see them together and how they are parenting their kids. Always thought that the new show should utilize "legacy" characters (the kids of original cast) who could easily be around the same age they were during the original run.  I think Mathew Lilliard's character as the principal being framed would be far more relevant if his story was happening in Twin Peaks, he was the high school principal there, and the current students were children of characters like Bobby, Shelley, Audrey, James, Mike, etc. 

That would have been interesting (and I could have laughed when someone in the press inevitably claimed they were ripping off Riverdale). I can't see this having a second season but I did wonder if we saw that they all had kids if that would have continued their journey into another show possibly. I guess either Lynch wanted to keep Twin Peaks free of the Black Lodge until Cooper returns or maybe he was trying to show that those elements have spread to other states. I hadn't thought about the high school element of the show in a while but it was a very natural element of the show in the first season. 

[jsbt]

We know there are young folks and a new generation on the show (like Shelly's daughter Becky 

 

who I'm pretty sure is played by Amanda Seyfried, and her boyfriend played by Caleb Landry Jones)

we just haven't seen much of them yet. We'll see if they become a force of their own or are largely side stuff. Given Lynch and Frost's current focus on aging and time I think it's 50/50.

I do wish Audrey had some bratty kids from her ill-fated relationship with Wheeler, but I doubt it. Whether or not Bobby and Shelly are together (or if she's fooling around with Balthazar Getty/"Red") I suspect their story will bring them back together.

Edited June 1, 2017 by jsbt

[hoodooznoodooz]

On 5/29/2017 at 0:29 PM, iMonrey said:

I watched about 40 minutes of Part 3 and then decided I had better things to do with 2 hours of my time. I'm out. 

I'm sure this is all very smart and deep and it all means something but I don't care. It's like one long fever dream and I have no interest in trying to figure it out. I bet if I dropped acid first I'd probably be blown away - or so freaked out by it I'd kill myself. Or maybe if I smoked a little weed first I'd be fascinated with it. But since I don't do either of those things this just isn't for me.

My theory is that Lynch drops acid and/or smokes marijuana before he starts drafting the script, or eats a spicy, exotic meal, goes to sleep, then uses those dreams as inspiration for the script.

[paigow]

Is Dougie the biological father of Sunny Jim? Is Dougie a true biological replica of Cooper 1.0? Then Cooper is the father!!!!

[Pete Martell]

Speaking about Andy and Lucy (again...), I finally realized what did feel a bit off for me with the "bunny" scene. I've heard people say how much they miss the old show's score, but I didn't feel that way (mostly because it didn't suit most of the scenes in the first 2 episodes) until the "bunny" bit. I think I'd forgotten just how much that wacky jazz music acted as a heartbeat for the characters in the town and at the sheriff's office. It's sort of like sitcoms that have the laugh tracks removed. 

I did like the scene though. 

Someone has probably already answered this but who were the people watching Dougie's house...the woman who was shouting numbers like a bingo caller? 

I'm glad that they didn't kill off Jade, which would have been very easy to do. Even if she was just there to further Cooper's story and take off her clothes, she had a great deal of common sense compared to many characters, so she deserved to live another day. 

I already said this elsewhere but I don't think I posted it here  I love some of the opening Black Lodge scenes in the third episode, especially everything with the eyeless woman and the bell. I'd heard that Lynch used that weird seizure-type filming in some of his later films, but I haven't seen those, and I'd never seen it applied to TV. It was startlingly effective into getting into such an unreal world. 

[jsbt]

I have no clue who the crazy drug addict mom (Hailey Gates) and her kid were, but my sneaking suspicion is that they may be a new (corrupted?) form of Mrs. Tremond and her grandson, the Lodge spirits from the original show and FWWM - watching Cooper from nearby. She yells "119!" which is the reverse of "911" orrrr... 'call for help.' And the fact that the little boy, who's only seen for moments from afar onscreen, was among the characters given a close-up publicity still for that episode by Showtime seems like too much to be coincidence. I also don't think Gates would've been part of the magazine promotion she recently took part in with Naomi Watts and Laura Dern if she too didn't have a reasonably substantial role. But who knows - could be a weird one-off to show the desolation of the empty Rancho Rosa development.

For someone who was so terrible on my favorite soap opera and only marginally better here at times, I really liked Nafessa Williams as Jade. She had spunk. I wouldn't mind seeing her again, though I doubt it. I also wonder if the name is no coincidence - "Jade" was the name of one of the twin sisters on the original show's soap-within-a-soap Imitation to Love, and jade is of course the (green) color of the Owl Cave ring. She also deliberately echoes Laura in the Lodge in the premiere when she tells Cooper "you can go out now".

Edited June 2, 2017 by jsbt

[Pete Martell]

2 hours ago, jsbt said:

I have no clue who the crazy drug addict mom (Hailey Gates) and her kid were, but my sneaking suspicion is that they may be a new (corrupted?) form of Mrs. Tremond and her grandson, the Lodge spirits from the original show and FWWM - watching Cooper from nearby. She yells "119!" which is the reverse of "911" orrrr... 'call for help.' And the fact that the little boy, who's only seen for moments from afar onscreen, was among the characters given a close-up publicity still for that episode by Showtime seems like too much to be coincidence. I also don't think Gates would've been part of the magazine promotion she recently took part in with Naomi Watts and Laura Dern if she too didn't have a reasonably substantial role. But who knows - could be a weird one-off to show the desolation of the empty Rancho Rosa development.

I ended up wondering if Sonny Jim (I'll always associate that name with Minnie Caldwell's beloved cat on Coronation Street, although I doubt that was where it's from) was supposed to be the grandson, now that you mention it. Or some other inhabitant of that realm. They sort of veered the line between him just being a kid enjoying seeing his father make a fool of himself, and being something different. 

I kept trying to think of who the female deputy was and when I looked her up I realized she'd played the ditzy sister on Duet (another late '80s/early '90s show that was known for being different and only lasted a few years).

 

I liked that they had a decent and nice "new" cop character to contrast with that asshole with the beard - he was such a blatant asshole that unless it was just to play up the difference between old Twin Peaks and new, I have to assume he will be corrupt and eat a bullet. 

(I don't know who the other deputy was but he was pretty attractive - so they hit all the casting notes for these three)

Hearing that Bobby is supposed to be looking out for drugs over the border makes me even warier that he's crooked, but I hope that he isn't.

[jsbt]

I know some people think Janey-E and Sonny Jim are either spirits, imaginary or hired by the Vegas mob or something. Some are convinced Sonny Jim is the Man From Another Place helping Cooper. I don't think any of that's the case, but I do think his actions (the thumbs up) evoked a memory response in Cooper. The kid was also a lot more winning and fun to watch here than when he annoyed me in Looper.

Call me naive but I may be the only person who doesn't think Bobby is the one running drugs across the border while manning his cameras. I think it's a red herring. I guess we'll see.

[paigow]

The Black Lodge seems to be incompetent / negligent if DoppleCooper beat the recall process so easily...Why is it unable to locate DoppleCooper and send some other killer to balance the universe?

[peachmangosteen]

9 hours ago, jsbt said:

Call me naive but I may be the only person who doesn't think Bobby is the one running drugs across the border while manning his cameras. I think it's a red herring. I guess we'll see.

 

I don't think he is either, but I admittedly had a big soft spot for Bobby so that may be clouding my judgment.

[Pete Martell]

I saw someone say that the Lucy phone scene was some homage to a deleted scene from FWWM. This doesn't have the whole scene (as otherwise I wouldn't post it of course) but has a fragment. I'm not sure what the tone of the full scene is.

[Moxie Cat]

14 hours ago, jsbt said:

 

I have no clue who the crazy drug addict mom (Hailey Gates) and her kid were, but my sneaking suspicion is that they may be a new (corrupted?) form of Mrs. Tremond and her grandson, the Lodge spirits from the original show and FWWM

 

Jeff Jensen had the same theory in his recap at EW, and I think it's a great one and very plausible. I would recommend that everyone takes a look at his recaps (there is a podcast too). He gets long-winded and off-topic, but he had a number of theories and explanations that I hadn't thought of. Including that the snipers had been sent by Dark Coop to take out Good Coop (because he knew "one of them would have to die") and that the reason both Coopers are malfunctioning is because only one can be in the real world at the same time.

[carrps]

On 5/22/2017 at 11:29 PM, Happy Harpy said:

I identified my major problem. The scenes are just too damn long, and with no character development or plot to support them, their emotional impact is lost (Bobby's crying) their humor is lost (Wally) or the character moments dissolve into unrelated crap (Gordon and Denise) or exaggeration (Lucy/Andy). Editing is love.

My other major problem, I need Dale Cooper. The real Dale Cooper. 25 years in the Black Lodge would have affected him, traumatized him, OK, makes sense for once. But I don't care about Dougie or doppelganger and less about Lost in Suburbia. Get his butt back to Twin Peaks.

 

Yes, yes YES. A thousand times YES ... especially the first paragraph. A scene that might work is pounded into nothingness by going on far too long. The shovel painting scene??? It felt like 15 minutes.

[jsbt]

9 hours ago, Moxie Cat said:

Jeff Jensen had the same theory in his recap at EW, and I think it's a great one and very plausible. I would recommend that everyone takes a look at his recaps (there is a podcast too). He gets long-winded and off-topic, but he had a number of theories and explanations that I hadn't thought of. Including that the snipers had been sent by Dark Coop to take out Good Coop (because he knew "one of them would have to die") and that the reason both Coopers are malfunctioning is because only one can be in the real world at the same time.

Yeah, I think it's true about the snipers and I heard that before - the Bad Dale tells Ray and Darya he needs 'two men for a job', and then they appear to wax "Dougie" at Rancho Rosa. My take is his plan was to have the Lodge swap Dougie out for Dale instead of him (as they did), and then have Dale assassinated by the thugs.

That being said, I think the doppelganger vomited up garmonbozia/creamed corn and the black engine oil from the pool at Glastonberry Grove (which the Log Lady makes special note of in episode 29, the Season 2 finale) because he was being pulled back in and had to resist long enough to let Dougie get taken instead. That effort expended has left him operating poorly, which is why we find him distorted in voice and manner in prison at the end of episode 4. He almost seems back to how wooden and mechanical he was when we first saw him at the end of episode 29 and in the Missing Pieces ("I have to brush my teeth" - repeated twice like his line to Gordon about coming to see him). And of course, Cooper's own struggle to return via electricity has left him totally addled.

As for Lynch stretching out moments and emotions beyond the point of absurdist no return or severe awkwardness/parody, he's been doing that since the original pilot - and it's only gotten longer since. I'm for it but it's not for everyone.

Edited June 3, 2017 by jsbt