S12.E22: Who We Are/S12.E23 All Along the Watchtower

[ILoveReading]

I get this episode was supposed to wrap up the BMoL's storyline but are we really supposed to believe their entire organization consists of Hess, Mick, Ketch, Toni and a handful of red-shirts?

If they're code is so strong why wouldn't the rest of them come across to America to continue to continue to try and eliminate other hunters?

[Thriftykins]

When they blew up the Men of Letters compound after the raid, all I could think was "it's a shame to destroy all that great supernatural gadgetry".

[Aeryn13]

I found this mostly stupid. Lucifer is still not dead, is Dabb in love with him or something? Because the character is cringeworthy now. Mary beating up on him looked so silly. Obviously it was meant to be so badass but good god did it look like a third-rate boxing match.

The random world of randomness - pfft. Barry Allen probably has 50 of those by now, one worse than the rest. As a Bobby cameo I could deal with it because it really didn`t mean anything.

And now pigs are flying because I actually do believe Cas meant both of them with the "a world you never saved". The camera cut to Sam and then Dean pondering this so IMO it was meant to showcase both. Yes, the scene could have been better conceptualized to make it more clear but I doubt Singer cared very much.

Maybe Cas and Crowley of this world are actually dead but the actors return as alternate versions. Though Cas for one, I do not think so. And exit interviews are not even uncommon if the actor may remain but the character is dead. Juliette on Grimm anyone.        

The Nephilim smirked evilly at the end. How very novel. Will they do a boy!Amara story, just with Sam? At least Sam isn`t the Nephilim. Or Michael or some shit like that. 

I wish Dean would be coming up with stuff and ideas again. It`s ridiculously one-sided now.  

Overall a meh-ish Finale.

[Aeryn13]

I thought this one was worse than the Finale and all because of that super-contrived "Sam the sole leader of everything"-scene. Dean had a busted up leg, not a torn-out tongue. He could have been allowed to speak as well.

And Sam`s dialogue was basically like "well, my brother and I...you know, screw this, this is MY hero scene and I`m the sole leader of everything now, follow me". While Dean gazed up at him proudly. 

You don`t get a second chance at a first impression. The US hunters saw Sam as the leader and Dean as the mute sidekick on the chair. How is that going to change going forward? Come on.

The scene with Mary was well-acted even though I didn`t like that Dean didn`t say anything about what happened to him. It`s been 12 years, he should be allowed some self worth as a person. Sam has no such hang ups, happily proclaiming himself leader. And the way he phrased it, his mistake wasn`t throwing in with the BMOL so much as not stepping up as this super-awesome General guy.

Semi-decent fight scene with Ketch. Would have prefered Dean to make the kill but Mary was a given. At least Dean looked kinda badass.

Overall the bad outweighs any good here so blergh.  

[mertensia]

21 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I get this episode was supposed to wrap up the BMoL's storyline but are we really supposed to believe their entire organization consists of Hess, Mick, Ketch, Toni and a handful of red-shirts?

If they're code is so strong why wouldn't the rest of them come across to America to continue to continue to try and eliminate other hunters?

I suspect the BMoL will consider the losses too high to return. Especially with Hess's death. Besides, we can always fanwank that Crowley paid a little visit to the Old Men and knocked them off if we never hear from them again.

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, ParadoxLost said:

I don't think Mark or Misha is gone. 

I think the question is are Cas/Crowley dead and to be replaced by AU Cas/Crowley or in some combination. like Cas resurrected by Nephilim and AU Crowley becomes permanent.

I think AU versions is a possibility,  theu introduced Doom World and locked Mary up there for a reason. I could see them using that as a way to bring Bobby, Cas and Crowley back, without cheating death.

I could also see Lil Luci bringing a version of Cas back.

I'm wavering on Mark/Crowly this morning because Luci really isn't trapped (since Mary's with him and Dean/Cas are going to save her). Crowley's death will be for nothing when Luci gets free.

35 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

And exit interviews are not even uncommon if the actor may remain but the character is dead. Juliette on Grimm anyone.        

Have there been exit interviews? I checked SpoilerTV last night and this morning and haven't seen any. Normally post mortem' s would have dropped immediately after the episode ended on the East Coast

[Quark]

Interesting finale. The only death I am sad about though is Rowena's. I like to think that she got the better of Lucifer though, like last time. Both Castiel and Crowley have felt stale for ages.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Have there been exit interviews? I checked SpoilerTV last night and this morning and haven't seen any. Normally post mortem' s would have dropped immediately after the episode ended on the East Coast

No, there haven`t been. And I think there would have even (especially) if the actors stayed around playing alternate versions. Heck, if they wanted to keep that a surprise, there would have been post mortem`s for sure. The total lack of any makes me think those deaths won`t be permanent.

Guess we`ll see who goes to Comic Con this year. If Misha and/or Mark S. go, it`s a dead giveaway. What would they talk about? "Yup, still dead"? I don`t think so. And if they are spotted shooting even before that, jig is up even sooner.

So maybe this isn`t supposed to be some big surprise.   

[Aeryn13]

One other thing that annoyed me: that raid suffered from some major John Wick envy. Good grief. 

[ILoveReading]

45 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Semi-decent fight scene with Ketch. Would have prefered Dean to make the kill but Mary was a given. At least Dean looked kinda badass.

It also showed that Dean could have gone on the raid despite his bum leg.  It was just a lame excuse to give Sam the big moment.  

[Boopsahoy]

51 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

 

 

51 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

you know, screw this, this is MY hero scene and I`m the sole leader of everything now, follow me". While Dean gazed up at him proudly. 

I didn't get that feeling at all. This was Sam manning up for making a bad decision. He was apologizing for wanting to follow the BMOL instead of being a leader. I had no problems at all with it. I felt he totally apologized to everyone including Dean.

I also actually liked that Sam got the raid and Dean got that wonderful emotional scene where again his love saves someone.

Edited May 19, 2017 by Boopsahoy

[Aeryn13]

Quote

He was apologizing for wanting to follow the BMOL instea of being a leader. 

That makes it seem like if only he had led the BMOL, it would have been okay. Joining up with them wasn`t a question of leadership.

And a scene where the Winchesters gather the US hunters to organize something should have been a joint thing. I do believe Dean has natural leadership abilities and would have liked not to see that stripped of him as well when it really counted but would have settled for a balanced approach. 12 years in of Dean showing that is an area of strength for him and the one time the show calls true attention to it in all those years, he becomes chopped liver in the scene.

Quote

I also actually liked that Sam got the raid and Dean got that wonderful emotional scene where again his love saves someone.

And I would have happily swapped. At least then it would have sense we only heard about Sam going to hell and all that. Heck, there is a slight chance Sam might have mentioned some of Dean`s tribulations. 

[KirkB]

This show loves killing people and they love showing dead bodies. The more gruesome the better.

Which is what leads me to suspect Rowena isn't actually dead. I mean, she may be. But given that she had already demonstrated her ability to fake it (and even tricked Lucifer himself the last time) there is no reason she couldn't have done so again. Yes, Luci did kill someone, overkill it sounds like, and it may very well have been the real Rowena (off screen, perhaps, because the actress wasn't available). But if they want to bring her back IMO it would be the easiest of the three, to say she wasn't really dead in the first place.

As for Cas and Crowley, that's a little tougher. Mark Sheppard is a pretty popular actor who likes to show up on a lot of my shows. It's entirely possible he has decided to move on and do something else. Crowley is most likely sincerely dead, since even Supernatural doesn't generally do two death fake outs for the same character in quick succession like this. If Crowley does come back it probably won't be the same Crowley we know, ie the alternate future, parallel world or whatever. Cas seems odds-on likely to come back, though it's possible Misha Collins is just done.

Mary and Luci, well, I'm not too bummed about them being gone. I'm more bothered by the fact they did it the way they did it, that both of them are still alive and Sam and Dean are probably going to have to risk letting him out to try and get her back.

Edited May 19, 2017 by KirkB

[sarthaz]

Every time someone posts a "what do you want to happen on Supernatural" thread, I say I want them to get rid of Cas and Crowley and close Heaven and Hell, so I can't go getting all mad about it if that's what they've done.

I like the callback to Swan Song with Luci dragging Mary into the rift.

I like Crowley determining his own fate and finally realizing that ruling Hell is a shitty job.  Not sure I buy him going full-on sacrificial (or knowing a spell to close a portal to an alternate universe), but I'm OK with it.  He was a great character, but he's lingered 2-3 seasons too long.

If Cas is dead, I'll be very sad, but I'm OK with it.  So done with angels and demons.  If Jack brings him back, I'm OK with that too.  What I don't want to see is Cisco opening portals to Earth 2 as an excuse for alternate characters.  Was worried Bobby was going to hop through the portal and demand to be called Rob.

In general, I don't have the visceral hate for this episode that many seem to have.  That said, whoever decided to kill Rowena off-screen needs to die in a fucking fire.  That was a shit move.  I guess there's some faint hope Rowena pulled a fast one on Luci, but I'm not holding my breath.  If they really did kill her off-screen like they've suggested, this may be the first thing I truly cannot forgive in 12 seasons (and I've seen Bloodlines & MBFWB & Bitten a dozen times).  Kinda ruins everything.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

Yes. SAm asked him what it was.  Cas looks directly at him, because he asked a question, and then he answers it.  Oh, the horror and rudeness of it all.  Looking at the person who asked you the question. WEll, it's OK, because he got his.

Cas, as a character, has nothing to do with it.

[ILoveReading]

Another scene I really liked Jensen in was just after they get to Jody's and Dean is sitting in the chair and Alex is tending to his leg.  The way Dean was chewing on his fingernails and glancing at Mary, he looked all of four years old.  Jensen never ceases to amaze me with that ability to go from a hardened warrior to so open and vunerable.  Jodi's little reassuring shoulder touch, and her trying to comfort him.  Just added to the overall feeling.

This is what I don't understand their approach with Mary.  Jodi doing something motherly, doesn't define her as just a mom.  We've seen Jodi do motherly things, and be badass at the same time.  It doesn't define her as Just a mom. 

It's not like Jodi didn't face a similar situation.  Claire and Alex were virtual strangers to her when she took them in.  Yet she made the effort.

Edited May 19, 2017 by ILoveReading

[bethy]

On a shallow note, I really liked Kim Rhodes's hair. As someone who has let her gray-hair-flag fly, I appreciated her salt and pepper. I thought it was striking looking.  

[Geordiegirl1967]

7 minutes ago, KirkB said:

Cas seems odds-on likely to come back, though it's possible Misha Collins is just done.

I think it far more likely that Cas is done but Misha will still be on the show. Maybe hosting the Nephilim? Or as Jimmy Novak from Apocalypse World?

[Katy M]

Just now, Geordiegirl1967 said:

I think it far more likely that Cas is done but Misha will still be on the show. Maybe hosting the Nephilim? Or as Jimmy Novak from Apocalypse World?

Jimmy from Bizarro World.  I could definitely handle that.  I don't know why Jack (might as well call him by his name, no matter how unsuitable) would need a host.  He got born into a body.

[Wayward Son]

I would absolutely loathe Misha staying on the show as a bizarro version of Jimmy, Cas etc. For me Misha is our Cas and our Cas is Misha! Having him stay would be too much of a constant reminder for me to cope with.

*goes back to crying in the corner* 

[Geordiegirl1967]

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I would absolutely loathe Misha staying on the show as a bizarro version of Jimmy, Cas etc. For me Misha is our Cas and our Cas is Misha! Having him stay would be too much of a constant reminder for me to cope with.

*goes back to crying in the corner* 

I feel really sorry for Cas fans. I think the show is being pretty cruel to you. Because either he really is gone, which obviously is bad news for his fans. Or he is not in which case it is manipulating the feelings of those who love the character. 

Personally if he is gone it won't bother me too much, but I like the character. I just think they ran out of ideas for him. So if they did use the actor in a different way I wouldn't mind that, but I get that that is not the same. I loathe all forms of not Sam and not Dean (hated Demon Dean, Soulless Sam, GadSam, MoC Dean (though not as bad as was still mainly Dean), Luci Sam etc) for the very reason that they are not the character I love and want to watch. So I totally understand if Cas fans would find that hard to take.

[rue721]

I really liked the scenes with Dean in Mary's head. IMO it felt like he was being as frank as he possibly could with her, and IMO his thoughts were really interesting to hear. I thought it was really powerful when he said he forgave her. The "I hate you" and "I love you," I basically expected. But the "I forgive you" was really touching IMO. And I'm just still impressed by how frank he was. He's been so assertive, confident, and self-aware with her for pretty much the whole season. Really brave and open, and a huge difference from how he was at the beginning of the show -- the way he was able to open up to Mary, and even his self-awareness in terms of what he wanted to say, was the culmination of a series-long character arc in some ways IMO.

But I thought the Sam-becomes-a-leader thing was not as well done. I couldn't follow his leap from "I was wrong about the BMOL" to "I should be a leader." Someone who has just displayed horribly poor judgement should NOT be a leader. When he made the speech to the other hunters about how he had been mistaken about the BMOL, I could only think that they also all knew about his similarly disastrously bad judgment with Ruby and how he'd started an apocalypse back in the day. Why in the world would any of them trust HIM as a leader? None of the others fell in with the BMOL and none of the others fell in a demon and started an apocalypse, so I have to say, I think if anything, he was the LEAST qualified out of everyone there to be a leader.

Also, I was aggravated by the thing that it's somehow lazy or bad to follow rather than lead. Being a good leader means having mutual respect and trust with the people following you -- so if you think that their decision to follow rather than lead themselves inherently makes them lazier or worse than you somehow, then I don't see how you can be a good leader. Sam actually can be a little bit of a snob from time to time, but that speech especially aggravated me. It was such an "upper management" attitude LOL. And illogical besides.

That said, I did like that Sam explained himself and his motives, and I do think it's sweet that he's still so passionate and idealistic. I mean, that's a good thing. But man, how about starting with trying to be a better judge of character and waiting on the "leadership" thing, you know?

Anyway, I am devastated about Rowena. In denial still! On the one hand, I am very happy that she wasn't stomped to death onscreen, because I don't want to see that. But that Lucifer stomped her to death, took a lock of hair as a trophy, and then burnt her to a crisp....sickening. I don't want to believe she's dead, but I do believe she's dead dead.

Edited May 19, 2017 by rue721

[rue721]

22 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Every time someone posts a "what do you want to happen on Supernatural" thread, I say I want them to get rid of Cas and Crowley and close Heaven and Hell, so I can't go getting all mad about it if that's what they've done.

Yup. Honestly, with the way they cleaned house and got rid of all the supernatural "buddies" at once -- Cas, Crowley, and Rowena -- and introduced  a bunch more human hunters (including Doom!Bobby), I am inclined to believe that all the supernatural deaths are final and we're back to focusing on just humans. Which I would be happy with and think is the best move for the show...despite being sad to see the characters (esp Rowena) go.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if some/none of those deaths were final but...I'm inclined to think they were, because it was such a thorough housecleaning. That even Rowena was killed...

It also intrigued me that they spent so much time/effort on Dean's injury to his leg and I think that that was some foreshadowing that the show isn't that interested in doing the supernatural quick-fixes anymore. Likewise IMO the callbacks to closing Hell, the inability to magic themselves out of the sealed bunker, the emphasis on the human hunters (and the human-on-human violence in the BMOL HQ), and Mary being both brainwashed and "cured" by humans using regular human tricks may have been foreshadowing to the same shift in attitude.

[Idahoforspn]

14 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I really liked the scenes with Dean in Mary's head. IMO it felt like he was being as frank as he possibly could with her, and IMO his thoughts were really interesting to hear. I thought it was really powerful when he said he forgave her. The "I hate you" and "I love you," I basically expected. But the "I forgive you" was really touching IMO. And I'm just still impressed by how frank he was. He's been so assertive, confident, and self-aware with her for pretty much the whole season. Really brave and open, and a huge difference from how he was at the beginning of the show -- the way he was able to open up to Mary, and even his self-awareness in terms of what he wanted to say, was the culmination of a series-long character arc in some ways IMO.

But I thought the Sam-becomes-a-leader thing was not as well done. I couldn't follow his leap from "I was wrong about the BMOL" to "I should be a leader." Someone who has just displayed horribly poor judgement should NOT be a leader. When he made the speech to the other hunters about how he had been mistaken about the BMOL, I could only think that they also all knew about his similarly disastrously bad judgment with Ruby and how he'd started an apocalypse back in the day. Why in the world would any of them trust HIM as a leader? None of the others fell in with the BMOL and none of the others fell in a demon and started an apocalypse, so I have to say, I think if anything, he was the LEAST qualified out of everyone there to be a leader.

Also, I was aggravated by the thing that it's somehow lazy or bad to follow rather than lead. Being a good leader means having mutual respect and trust with the people following you -- so if you think that their decision to follow rather than lead themselves inherently makes them lazier or worse than you somehow, then I don't see how you can be a good leader. Sam actually can be a little bit of a snob from time to time, but that speech especially aggravated me. It was such an "upper management" attitude LOL. And illogical besides.

Agree with this. Well put.

[bethy]

10 minutes ago, rue721 said:

But I thought the Sam-becomes-a-leader thing was not as well done. I couldn't follow his leap from "I was wrong about the BMOL" to "I should be a leader." Someone who has just displayed horribly poor judgement should NOT be a leader. When he made the speech to the other hunters about how he had been mistaken about the BMOL, I could only think that they also all knew about his similarly disastrously bad judgment with Ruby and how he'd started an apocalypse back in the day. Why in the world would any of them trust HIM as a leader? None of the others fell in with the BMOL and none of the others fell in a demon and started an apocalypse, so I have to say, I think if anything, he was the LEAST qualified out of everyone there to be a leader.

Also, I was aggravated by the thing that it's somehow lazy or bad to follow rather than lead. Being a good leader means having mutual respect and trust with the people following you -- so if you think that their decision to follow rather than lead themselves inherently makes them lazier or worse than you somehow, then I don't see how you can be a good leader. Sam actually can be a little bit of a snob from time to time, but that speech especially aggravated me. It was such an "upper management" attitude LOL. And illogical besides.

This is really well said. I think part of my own struggle with this development is that it was simply, "Sam decides he should be a leader" rather than Sam actually displaying true leadership qualities. I think admitting he was wrong was a good start, but the next step, to me, is then being willing to listen to others and learn from their perspective. As @rue721 noted, Sam's been spectacularly wrong in the past. And usually because he refused to listen to anyone else's advice. 

I suspect, though, that "Sam is a leader" will actually be dropped in the future in terms of it having any real meaning for the show. Sam was the leader against the BMoL, but I doubt he'll now be seen as the leader of the hunting community going forward. Not because of Sam, but because the show won't follow up with that. 

[Idahoforspn]

29 minutes ago, bethy said:

On a shallow note, I really liked Kim Rhodes's hair. As someone who has let her gray-hair-flag fly, I appreciated her salt and pepper. I thought it was striking looking.  

Is the grey showing at cons? When the grey first appeared it was the Asa Fox episode and it seemed like they were just trying to make her appear older than Mary. Mary is supposed to be younger than the actress is.

[bethy]

16 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Honestly, with the way they cleaned house and got rid of all the supernatural "buddies" at once -- Cas, Crowley, and Rowena -- and introduced  a bunch more human hunters (including Doom!Bobby), I am inclined to believe that all the supernatural deaths are final and we're back to focusing on just humans. Which I would be happy with and think is the best move for the show

Oooo. I would be happy with this, too. It would be nice to have some "real" stakes again.

[Advance35]

I know there are many subsets to this fandom but for me while the Dean/Sam relationship is the CORE of the show and always will be, alterations to the dynamic and evolution of it, played out as far as it could up to the end of Season 5.   Their not just brothers, their best friends, chiseled in stone.  Castiel was an x-factor that told us about each of the characters through his dynamic with them.   On paper I always thought he should really be closer to Sam then Dean but it was the less refined brother he grew attached to first.  Over time his relationship with Sam evolved to the point where I do believe they considered each other family.  Dean said, Cas was their brother.  Milleniums old but he came off as their younger, frequently imperiled, troublemaking younger brother.   It was always interesting  because while Cas grew close to both, they had such different dynamics with him.  Castiel idolized Dean, and would take it to heart when Dean was furious or proud of him.  While Sam, would look out for Castiel but also keep his eye ON Castiel, in terms of what he was up too (such as bugging his phone when Castiel showed up out of nowhere.  Even after everything he did to them, Dean with regards to Lisa & Ben, Sam he LITERALLY drove him insane, but he was still family.  I'm going to miss it.  To say nothing of the humor Castiel brought to the canvas.

I'm trying to think of recent additions that brought such a well roundedness or where I sensed potential to and I'm coming up blank.  Dour Mary is a no go.

I never cottoned to Jodie and I don't know why.

The Witch & his Zombie sister? No. Their Mother seemed charismatic so I was sorry about her.

Garth? No.

Ghostfacers? Please No.

I wasn't wild about Season 7 and it was definitely not appointment TV for me (until Castiel & Crowley re-entered the scene) so if nothing else, I'll likely have an hour of my time back next fall.  On record as saying these deaths should have been saved for the last season of the show.

[sarthaz]

18 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Yup. Honestly, with the way they cleaned house and got rid of all the supernatural "buddies" at once -- Cas, Crowley, and Rowena -- and introduced  a bunch more human hunters (including Doom!Bobby), I am inclined to believe that all the supernatural deaths are final and we're back to focusing on just humans. Which I would be happy with and think is the best move for the show...despite being sad to see the characters (esp Rowena) go.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if some/none of those deaths were final but...I'm inclined to think they were, because it was such a thorough housecleaning. That even Rowena was killed...

It also intrigued me that they spent so much time/effort on Dean's injury to his leg and I think that that was some foreshadowing that the show isn't that interested in doing the supernatural quick-fixes anymore. Likewise IMO the callbacks to closing Hell, the inability to magic themselves out of the sealed bunker, the emphasis on the human hunters (and the human-on-human violence in the BMOL HQ), and Mary being both brainwashed and "cured" by humans using regular human tricks may have been foreshadowing to the same shift in attitude.

I'm hopeful that this is the case and they don't find some taxi driver who knows the backdoor to Bizarro World.  Every time TNT restarts at Season 1, I'm reminded how much better the show was when it was two dudes and a car travelling the country helping people, and I've wanted the show to return to that for years.  When they got locked in the bunker last week, I prayed to Cas that they'd blow it up to escape and have to start sleeping in shitty motels again.  That's the better show: small town stories with big stakes for individual people.

[Wayward Son]

I'm gonna tune into the first few episodes of season 13, but if they pull ridiculous stunts like making their grief for Cas "blink and you'll miss it", or keep Misha on as someone else I'm done. 

[Mulva]

I want to see Rowena come back as a ghost haunting the Winchesters.

[Roselle]

Ding Dong, I for one am glad the witch is dead! 

That character, alongside what Crowley has become, and alongside the lack of (budget) imagination for what should be dark/threatening settings (Hell anyone? Nah, just some dungeon with endless suits), has done a lot to turn this show that I love into pantomime. Think back to the early seasons when Hell was a place to be feared, torture was torture that actually broke people and destroyed souls (not a high-school production set where those who "suffer" are simply tied to a chair and endlessly snarked at) and, despite the supernatural element, it was kinda 'real'. Of course, maintaining stories for 12 seasons is a huge challenge but Rowena, and sadly Crowley (cos I actually  enjoyed his threat to begin with) came to epitomise what I resent about the changes over the years. So yeah, I like the actress and how she fit into the SPN family, but I'm thrilled if Rowena is truly dead.

Having said all that whingey stuff - I did actually really enjoy this 2 ep finale for all those Winchester moments - the brotherliness, the working together, the hugs, the action, Dean's tears, Dean's family loyalty, the pain of losing Cas (cos I'm one of the many who doesn't believe it so I can't be sad but it gave us that lovely shot of Dean on his knees, so reminiscent of when Sam took Lucifer back to Hell ...y'know when Hell was scary) ...Oh Ok, so my things to love centre mainly on Dean, but there was also the revelation of another world (cos that is a useful way for next season to go, since the writers utterly wasted the awesome possibilities of Purgatory), the rather satisfying 'end' (probably not) to Mary's arc and the destruction of the BMOL storyline (God, I really hope that's over). 

I'm hopeful about where they have left off for S13 - angst off the scale, the brothers united and an unknowable threat in the shape of Lucifer's son. 

[SueB]

This morning I find myself slightly annoyed at how we've been conditioned to presume that some of the characters are NOT dead.  Don't get me wrong, I WANT Cas alive (if I only get one, I want that one).  BUT, if that was THE END -- I wanted more focus on EACH.  I want a sense of REAL CLOSURE.  

Now,, they KINDA gave us closure with Cas in "Stuck in the Middle (With You)".  He GOT his epic death scene. But he didn't die.  But... IDK whether or not to mourn him.

And Rowena?!  Girl needed to go out throwing flames and casting spells.  Not offscreen.

Crowley got the closest to closure in this one episode.  But he was just ONE of THREE.  I am Team Crowley and will not apologize for it. I was thrilled to see his role in this episode.  And I still want him back.

Now I DON'T watch the DC universe on the CW but I understand they manipulate reality a lot.  So, none of my thoughts come from those shows but I wouldn't be surprised to hear that my speculation (see below) is something done elsewhere.

Speculation:  
- What if that WAS the end of OUR Cas, Crowley, and Rowena but only ONE death is permanent and we get the Other World version of the character back (like Bobby is ... at least temporarily).  If THAT is the case, then I need to be mourning OUR version of Cas (or Crowley or Rowena).  Because all three have been profoundly changed by their interactions with the Winchesters.  Cas, for example, might still be slightly "off" and open to Team Free Will but the rich depth of the relationship with the boys would be gone.  And so I would need to mourn OUR Cas.

So... I find this "up in the air" bit irritating.  Because I generally AVOID unnecessary pain and I really REALLY don't want our Cas (for example) to be gone.  It's much more comfortable in denial zone.  But .... I need to process it if it's true.  GAH.  Damn rip in the time/space continuum plot uncertainty mechanism!  

[Binns]

42 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Yup. Honestly, with the way they cleaned house and got rid of all the supernatural "buddies" at once -- Cas, Crowley, and Rowena -- and introduced  a bunch more human hunters (including Doom!Bobby), I am inclined to believe that all the supernatural deaths are final and we're back to focusing on just humans. Which I would be happy with and think is the best move for the show...despite being sad to see the characters (esp Rowena) go.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if some/none of those deaths were final but...I'm inclined to think they were, because it was such a thorough housecleaning. That even Rowena was killed...

It also intrigued me that they spent so much time/effort on Dean's injury to his leg and I think that that was some foreshadowing that the show isn't that interested in doing the supernatural quick-fixes anymore. Likewise IMO the callbacks to closing Hell, the inability to magic themselves out of the sealed bunker, the emphasis on the human hunters (and the human-on-human violence in the BMOL HQ), and Mary being both brainwashed and "cured" by humans using regular human tricks may have been foreshadowing to the same shift in attitude.

I like this theory a lot. I got the same sense this morning when I thought through the episodes again. Another supporting element- they got rid of a lot of the magic doodads from the BMoL and got back to basics with weapons- grenade launcher instead of magicking their way out of the bunker. And I'm hoping they washed their hands of the BMoL completely. I will say I sort of liked Ketch and they did a good job with Lady Tony at the end there. But I was happy to see those sociopaths go. 

[gonzosgirrl]

22 minutes ago, Mulva said:

I want to see Rowena come back as a ghost haunting the Winchesters.

I feel there must be a reason it a) happened off-screen, and b) showed him with a lock of her hair.  ETA: I mean a reason besides being too cheap to pay Ruth, and hitting us with the anvil of her red hair in place of said pay.

The only way I forgive them this episode is if there is an AlternaBenny in the other world and he gets to come back and be Dean's best friend.

Edited May 19, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Idahoforspn]

6 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

They absolutely have, you have a space/time rift that just got introduced in the season finale. You really think that introduction and specific explanation of not only an AU world but a being who has the power to open space and time isn't going to come into play in S13?

Are they dead in 1223? Absolutely. Will they remain dead permanently? I think Crowley/Mark is more likely to exit the show than Cas/Misha.

Agree here. I think Mark may be moving on but Misha is most likely staying. If that is the case, it was another jerk move by Dabb to overshadow Crowley's death with Cas's. And not even gonna mention how they treated Rowena. Total disrespect for the contributions of the individual actors if any of them stay dead.  But then, I would expect that kind of stuff from Dabb. I'm still fuming about the gradual deconstruction of Dean Winchester this season especially.

[Pondlass1]

Love reading your comments.  I'll have to watch a few more times, but I got the feeling these episodes were written for the casual easily appeased viewer.  Invested nutjobs like us would never be so easily manipulated.  Bitch/Jerk... yeah right!

What did strike me was the 'smallness' of everything. I know they don't have a big budget but....

I was reminded of a show called Under The Dome. A dome comes down and covers a town of about two thousand people. However, viewers only ever saw about 20 townsfolk at any one time. Even when they called a town meeting - 20 people showed up. Where were the other thousands? It never made any sense.

Same thing here. They call a hunters' gathering and 5 people show up!! Super Sam then leads the charge as the motley crew sets off to the Super Duper BMOL headquarters - guarded by a chain-link fence no less - which contains a hand full of BMOL-ers who are easily taken down by a few bullets.  WTF!  It was so lame and Mickey Mouse.

Loved the grenade launcher, however that bunker seems like a massive place that goes on forever.  Would they really use up that much oxygen in a couple of days?  Also - how does Baby get in and out of the basement garage? Wouldn't that be an easier route out?  Their dilemma seemed silly to me.

Jensen's "I hate you" scene was (of course) Emmy worthy.  It got me in the gut.  However Samantha Smith does cold fish a little too well.  I never felt Mary heard Dean.

The 'gold vagina' world piqued my interest.  Various versions of our characters from other realms... now that would be an interesting arc.  You'd never really know.  It'd be like that film Coherence.  Oops wrong thread...

 

 

 

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

It also showed that Dean could have gone on the raid despite his bum leg.  It was just a lame excuse to give Sam the big moment.  

Dean's bum leg was not why he couldn't go on.  He used that as an excuse so he could save Mary.  He couldn't do both at the same time.  And, when exactly did Sam really get a big moment out of that.  He was one of 6 or 7 hunters.  And, Jodie took out the big one left there.  Unless, shooting a radio or whatever, counts as doing something big and useful now.  Magic or not, I doubt shooting at radio kills the person on the other side.

[gonzosgirrl]

14 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

<snip>

Loved the grenade launcher, however that bunker seems like a massive place that goes on forever.  Would they really use up that much oxygen in a couple of days?  Also - how does Baby get in and out of the basement garage? Wouldn't that be an easier route out?  Their dilemma seemed silly to me.

 

 

I can't even with most of the Austin Powers-level nonsensical villainy that lead Ketch to 'kill' them this way, but he did say that he was reversing the system - so presumably the system was pumping air out, not just cutting it off.

But yeah, you'd think the garage door would be easier to blow than a few feet of concrete.

Edited May 19, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Boopsahoy said:

I didn't get that feeling at all. This was Sam manning up for making a bad decision. He was apologizing for wanting to follow the BMOL instead of being a leader. I had no problems at all with it. I felt he totally apologized to everyone including Dean.

I was fine with the apology.  What confused me was the declaration of wanting to be a follower because leading was too hard.  That just came out of nowhere.  If he didn't want to lead, all he had to do was follow Dean.  He's been more the leader of their twosome since day one.  Even after Sam demanded equal footing in Fallen Idols.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

And, when exactly did Sam really get a big moment out of that. 

In the speech scene. He called the hunters to a gathering and gave them the "follow me into battle" speech. That was the big moment in terms of being leader to the US hunters. I`d have killed for Dean to be equally included in that. That all the other hunters are shown killing things in the actual raid is to be expected. If they couldn`t, why take them in the first place?  

[ILoveReading]

12 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Dean's bum leg was not why he couldn't go on.  He used that as an excuse so he could save Mary.  He couldn't do both at the same time.  And, when exactly did Sam really get a big moment out of that.  He was one of 6 or 7 hunters.  And, Jodie took out the big one left there.  Unless, shooting a radio or whatever, counts as doing something big and useful now.  Magic or not, I doubt shooting at radio kills the person on the other side.

Maybe if Dean's confrontation with Mary was actually about Dean's traumas and not just Sam's then I might agree with this.  Since all Dean did was talk about Sam, I'd rather they swapped and Dean lead the raid.

[rue721]

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Maybe if Dean's confrontation with Mary was actually about Dean's traumas and not just Sam's then I might agree with this.  Since all Dean did was talk about Sam, I'd rather they swapped and Dean lead the raid.

I disagree that that wasn't about Dean. Dean listed things that had happened to Sam in order to prove his point, but he was talking about his own feelings.

[Binns]

12 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I disagree that that wasn't about Dean. Dean listed things that had happened to Sam in order to prove his point, but he was talking about his own feelings.

I also think that some of his pride when Sam was giving his speech called back to the "had to be his father" thing- it was like a father's pride to me. 

47 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Love reading your comments.  I'll have to watch a few more times, but I got the feeling these episodes were written for the casual easily appeased viewer.  Invested nutjobs like us would never be so easily manipulated.  Bitch/Jerk... yeah right!

I don't know if I would call myself casual or not invested but I think I probably am easily appeased. I 

[flyinghigh]

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

I really liked the scenes with Dean in Mary's head. IMO it felt like he was being as frank as he possibly could with her, and IMO his thoughts were really interesting to hear. I thought it was really powerful when he said he forgave her. The "I hate you" and "I love you," I basically expected. But the "I forgive you" was really touching IMO. And I'm just still impressed by how frank he was. He's been so assertive, confident, and self-aware with her for pretty much the whole season. Really brave and open, and a huge difference from how he was at the beginning of the show -- the way he was able to open up to Mary, and even his self-awareness in terms of what he wanted to say, was the culmination of a series-long character arc in some ways IMO.

Loved this scene!! The emotions that crossed Dean's face during that monologue - stellar performance. And when that single tear fell - I was like-Tissues please.

The way he started with - I hate you mom - picking up from the conversation between 4yr old Dean and Mary - and went on to build it with reasons why he hates her and then finishing off with why he cannot hate her - very powerful performance. When the camera was on 6 month old Sam and Dean was telling Mary about Lucifer possession and Hell and losing his soul - as a mother how wretched Mary must be feeling!

I read somewhere about Dean's repressed and invalidated emotions. In this scene he confronts Mary with them. Though he only spoke about Sam, but IMO, it was his perspective that came across - how he felt when the responsibility of being not just a brother but also a father and a mother. Or that he was unable to save Sam - it is his  feelings of inadequacy that come across - while all the time making it clear that this should never have been his responsibility in the first place. And then comes - I forgive you. Yes, very touching. 

Anyways. That's how felt after watching that scene. Crying empathizing - with both Dean and Mary.

Actually, I liked the whole episode. And from this season - 3rd one only. The lowest count in all the seasons for me. This scene was definitely the highlight (for me)

[DittyDotDot]

I can't say I either loved or hated this one. Pretty standard fare, nothing unexpected happened, but some decent character beats all around. ::shrugs::

However, because it can't be said too much lately, TOO MUCH TALKING!! 

That's all I got.

13 hours ago, Katy M said:

The one thing I think was really stupid was doing all this at the bunker.  And apparently not turning off Mary's cell phone.  

I didn't find the bunker to be that stupid since Ketch didn't know they had escaped it. In fact, that was probably the one place no one would've thought they'd go, but why the hell didn't they destroy Mary's phone? Seriously? So stupid.

13 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I thought the scene with Dean and Mary was very moving.  He really laid it all on the line with her, and it worked. I was initially a little bummed that he didn't mention his own time in hell, but then I realized that he made that choice to sell his soul, just like he was accusing her of doing.  Sam's trip to hell was a direct result of the demon blood issue, which was a result of Mary's deal.  Dean did get to tell her just how hard her decision was on him, so he made his point very well.

Yeah, I thought it was very smart of Dean to switch tactics. I don't even think it was about putting Sam's pain before his, but I think it was Dean realizing the mission at hand was to save Mary, not wallow in his own hurts. It wasn't about him, it was about Mary and what Mary needed to hear to get her to stop hiding from herself. This is why Dean is a genius to me; a puzzle is put in front of him, he solves it.

13 hours ago, ZennyKenny said:

I got the complete opposite impression. Sam was realizing that the way he was phrasing it was forcing Dean to share responsibility for the BMoL fiasco. Saying "I" removed Dean from that. Which, imo, was the right thing to do.

I agree. Sam wasn't saying "I'm the leader," but was saying, "I'm the one who fell for their crap, not Dean. And, despite my stupidity, please help me fix it."

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I get this episode was supposed to wrap up the BMoL's storyline but are we really supposed to believe their entire organization consists of Hess, Mick, Ketch, Toni and a handful of red-shirts?

If they're code is so strong why wouldn't the rest of them come across to America to continue to continue to try and eliminate other hunters?

I have a feeling we're not done with the Brits. ;)

[flyinghigh]

2 hours ago, rue721 said:

But I thought the Sam-becomes-a-leader thing was not as well done. I couldn't follow his leap from "I was wrong about the BMOL" to "I should be a leader." Someone who has just displayed horribly poor judgement should NOT be a leader. When he made the speech to the other hunters about how he had been mistaken about the BMOL, I could only think that they also all knew about his similarly disastrously bad judgment with Ruby and how he'd started an apocalypse back in the day. Why in the world would any of them trust HIM as a leader? None of the others fell in with the BMOL and none of the others fell in a demon and started an apocalypse, so I have to say, I think if anything, he was the LEAST qualified out of everyone there to be a leader.

Oh I agree with you. You definitely have a point. 

I want to say two things about this scene - firstly, this speech was not as well written as Dean's monologue. IMO. Even if Sam has made bad decisions earlier and was responsible for so many things if the speech had been - I have learnt from my mistakes and I want to fix things where I need your help - better written speech.

Secondly, I think Sam displayed a kind of vulnerability - a regret at being responsible for trusting the wrong kind of people which was very moving and does want one to help him fix it. Or maybe I am reading too much into the scene - I don't know. For me, when Dean showed confidence in him, I knew he would be able to take the whole BMoL  single-handedly, if required. Red Meat ??

11 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I agree. Sam wasn't saying "I'm the leader," but was saying, "I'm the one who fell for their crap, not Dean. And, despite my stupidity, please help me fix it."

yes. +1

[The Morning Star]

Hi, long time lurker and first time poster here.

 

-Castiel's Death: It's pains me to say it but the character had become a severely damaged trainwreck, completely lost, ineffective and lacking focus after the S8 finale, the only reason he was still onscreen if you ask me was keeping the fans of Collins happy and the problem mainly stems from the fact that strong Cas and friendly Cas just can't go together for more than a handful number of episodes without severely hindering the tension of the show.

And I'm a fan of the character myself, I do hope we get to see Cas again fully restored for the last season, perhaps as the final aleader of heaven appointed by Chuck and hopefully in form of an Archangel.

-Crowley: I like The character and the actor but I can't really point out why he survived S6 when Cas "killed" him. The character had a very very pointless run between S6 and S12, I thought him eventually becoming human and then dying would be a fitting end for the character and how different he had become after the incomplete cure by Sam but they simply dropped the whole thing together and had him commit suicide as a Demon out of nowhere.

 

kinda defeats the purpose, doesn't it?

-Alternate Universe: Becareful with that one, hitting zero on interpersonal relations between likes of Alternate Cas and Bobby is a dangerous gamble, it can kill the show, (refer to Fringe season 4), either give us Bobby and Cas or just let them die.

 

Overall really Cas felt like a loss to me, It was sad to see Crowley go but Cas's death was just hard, he's the third brother, still haven't forgotten about his powerful initial introduction and really wonder how "I'm Castiel, an angel of the lord" became "I'm Cas, the fifth wheel of the coach and still fail at being that"

Edited May 19, 2017 by The Morning Star

[catrox14]

I'm going to hang my hat on the theory that Alt!Cas and Actual!Cas swapped places in Earth2 and it's Alt!Cas that died.

Cas did seem weirdly confused when he came back through the portal the first time and I seen no reason why he wouldn't tell Kelly about the space time rift.  I mean what difference would it have made for him to tell her?  Thinking more about dead!Cas' wings they were pretty darn full and his wings have been tattered....so that gives me more hope it's really not actual!Cas that died. Maybe alt!Bobby is hiding him somewhere on Earth2.

I'm telling ya, this Alternate Earth can open a door for a crossover with Arrow.

2 hours ago, Binns said:

t also intrigued me that they spent so much time/effort on Dean's injury to his leg and I think that that was some foreshadowing that the show isn't that interested in doing the supernatural quick-fixes anymore.

But if they move to far away from supernatural things...then how does the show remain "Supernatural". I'm not being snarky. Why would they do that other than to set up Dean and Sam for actual deaths with no take backs? 

[DeeDee79]

I enjoyed this episode. I feel that even though Sam got the action plot and Dean got the emotional plot they were equally important to the overall story. From reading through some of the previous posts I'm sure many won't agree but as a Dean girl I was satisfied with his part of the story. Yes, I do wish that he had thrown in some of what he's been through instead of just mentioning what happened with Sam but I kinda feel like he had to focus on that because Mary's deal ultimately affected Sam more and he was speaking specifically about what her deal did to the ones that were left behind after she was killed. That being said I'm glad he was able to unload with everything he has been keeping inside in regards to his mother and that Mary finally acknowledged how cold and distant she had been to them. Also, yay Ketch is dead and Jody is still alive!