THT Spoilers

[GraceK]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

That said, I'd love to see Serena defect, and Luke sue for custody, and then Nick can arrive and also sue for custody.

(All while June is making tapes in a cabin in Maine.)

Except If Serena defects, there wouldn’t be any “ suing for custody “. Serena is a war criminal, with a stolen child. If she has any common sense she would be in hiding, not parading around in freedom with a stolen child, enjoying mochas battling for custody in a court of law. 

On a personal note, I’m not interested in a Serena defects and enjoys mai Thais on a tropical island and gets miraculously pregnant storyline. She needs to eventually pay the piper and face justice for what she has done, not have a last second reprieve because “reasons” or because the show runners are in love with the actress.

Edited July 2, 2018 by GraceK

[chocolatine]

31 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Serena is a war criminal, with a stolen child.

Exactly. The moment she tries to cross the border into Canada with a baby that's not hers, she'd be detained for child trafficking and the baby becomes an unaccompanied minor.

[Umbelina]

She wouldn't do it without immunity and her book deal though, that's why she hesitated when cute CIA first proposed it.

She could play it off as a brainwashed victim, and as long as she was now aiding the cause, it might play.  Yes, she wanted environmental protections and blah blah babies, but she had no idea "the men" would take it so far.

I just want to see more than Gilead.

[DuckyinKy]

6 hours ago, Umbelina said:

She wouldn't do it without immunity and her book deal though, that's why she hesitated when cute CIA first proposed it.

She could play it off as a brainwashed victim, and as long as she was now aiding the cause, it might play.  Yes, she wanted environmental protections and blah blah babies, but she had no idea "the men" would take it so far.

When she was in Canada and the female delegate gave her a list of cultural ideas to occupy her day while Fred was in meetings, there were only pictures on the paper. No writing, just as it is in Gilead. She seemed defeated. 

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

This talk about Serena defecting and book deals gives me hives. Seriously. Is her house coming with a white picket fence too?

[Umbelina]

3 hours ago, DuckyinKy said:

When she was in Canada and the female delegate gave her a list of cultural ideas to occupy her day while Fred was in meetings, there were only pictures on the paper. No writing, just as it is in Gilead. She seemed defeated. 

She seemed pissed and embarrassed to me.

If he'd had a few more days with her as was the plan?  He might have convinced her, and she would have had a chance to ask about immunity.  She'd be a pretty big weapon against Gilead if they had her, and she knows Fred is on shaky ground. 

I think she only came back because no immunity was offered, it was scary how hated they were, and of course, the big one, the baby.  If Gilead becomes scarier to her than the alternative?  She might bolt.

44 minutes ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

This talk about Serena defecting and book deals gives me hives. Seriously. Is her house coming with a white picket fence too?

It would be far more interesting than just having bleak Gilead on the screen all the time, and it would be a way to keep a great actress on the screen.  I'm tired of refugees moping around Canada too, there is still joy in the world, and this show is refusing to show that. 

Serena Joy might be in a position to show that, and also expand this story.  She could travel on her book tour, debrief with US and World authorities, stir up the masses.  It would be quite interesting to see her tear down the system she helped build up, and even better?  We wouldn't know (if it was written correctly) how much she really believed it, and how much was a con, and simply a way for her to escape.

Portraying herself as a victim would have some truth in it, of course, and supposedly she was a powerful speaker and writer.  How many could she convince, as long as June wasn't there to speak against her?  How cool would it be when/if June finally was?

[DuckyinKy]

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

3 hours ago, DuckyinKy said:

When she was in Canada and the female delegate gave her a list of cultural ideas to occupy her day while Fred was in meetings, there were only pictures on the paper. No writing, just as it is in Gilead. She seemed defeated. 

She seemed pissed and embarrassed to me.

You're absolutely right, embarrassed was the word I was looking for but somehow defeated came out instead. Yes she seemed embarrassed, especially when the female delegate said "I don't know how you live with yourself. It's sad, what they've done to you." At that moment she knew the delegate was right. Here's the odd thing - I am anxious to see how motherhood works out for SJ. Oddly enough, I think she loves children. She went above, beyond and took a beating for trying to help Baby Angela. When they were in Canada, the little girl at the elevator who asked if she was a princess, SJ came off as kind. All in all, SJ is a delicious combination of evil/good. And I want to see how she plays with having a baby.  

[Umbelina]

8 minutes ago, DuckyinKy said:

You're absolutely right, embarrassed was the word I was looking for but somehow defeated came out instead. Yes she seemed embarrassed, especially when the female delegate said "I don't know how you live with yourself. It's sad, what they've done to you." At that moment she knew the delegate was right. Here's the odd thing - I am anxious to see how motherhood works out for SJ. Oddly enough, I think she loves children. She went above, beyond and took a beating for trying to help Baby Angela. When they were in Canada, the little girl at the elevator who asked if she was a princess, SJ came off as kind. All in all, SJ is a delicious combination of evil/good. And I want to see how she plays with having a baby.  

Oddly enough, I think Serena might be a very good mother, or as good as most mothers are, good days and bad days.  She's always seemed kind to children, looks and speaks with loving eyes/voice.  She risked her life to help Janine's baby.  She was entranced by the little girl at the elevator.  She was annoyed with that baby's mother always complaining about the baby too.

Of course, a baby won't solve everything the way Serena hopes/expects.  I think she's fed up with Gilead, and a baby is a bandaid, not a real solution for her.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Umbelina

[alexvillage]

11 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Exactly. The moment she tries to cross the border into Canada with a baby that's not hers, she'd be detained for child trafficking and the baby becomes an unaccompanied minor.

Then the Resistance would organize marches and protests to reunite them, only to realize that they are in Canada, not somewhere else and that shit doesn't happen there without accountability. Reality meets fiction.

Just venting. Really pissed with a lot of stuff.

[GraceK]

57 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

She seemed pissed and embarrassed to me.

If he'd had a few more days with her as was the plan?  He might have convinced her, and she would have had a chance to ask about immunity.  She'd be a pretty big weapon against Gilead if they had her, and she knows Fred is on shaky ground. 

I think she only came back because no immunity was offered, it was scary how hated they were, and of course, the big one, the baby.  If Gilead becomes scarier to her than the alternative?  She might bolt.

It would be far more interesting than just having bleak Gilead on the screen all the time, and it would be a way to keep a great actress on the screen.  I'm tired of refugees moping around Canada too, there is still joy in the world, and this show is refusing to show that. 

Serena Joy might be in a position to show that, and also expand this story.  She could travel on her book tour, debrief with US and World authorities, stir up the masses.  It would be quite interesting to see her tear down the system she helped build up, and even better?  We wouldn't know (if it was written correctly) how much she really believed it, and how much was a con, and simply a way for her to escape.

Portraying herself as a victim would have some truth in it, of course, and supposedly she was a powerful speaker and writer.  How many could she convince, as long as June wasn't there to speak against her?  How cool would it be when/if June finally was?

This would be such complete and utter Bullshit pandering because of this actresses appeal that they might as well rename this show “ The Roots of Evil, Rape, Murder and The overthrow of a democracy , The Serena Joy Story”.

Edited July 2, 2018 by GraceK

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

Um no. Serena getting away with things she's done is not going to be interesting to watch. I don't find murders/rapists etc enjoying life on a beach entertaining.

And no, when it is time for Serena to vacate the screen, she should leave. YS will not be sitting home knitting so her fans can catch her on another project.

[Umbelina]

29 minutes ago, alexvillage said:

12 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Exactly. The moment she tries to cross the border into Canada with a baby that's not hers, she'd be detained for child trafficking and the baby becomes an unaccompanied minor.

Then the Resistance would organize marches and protests to reunite them, only to realize that they are in Canada, not somewhere else and that shit doesn't happen there without accountability. Reality meets fiction.

Just venting. Really pissed with a lot of stuff.

Yes!  That's the point, it would be far more believable and interesting than what we've see this year!

14 minutes ago, GraceK said:

This would be such complete and utter Bullshit pandering because of this actresses appeal that they might as well rename this show “ The Roots of Evil, Rape, Murder and The overthrow of a democracy , The Serena Joy Story”.

Who said she gets away with anything?  It would open up the story and allow us to see more of the world, and lead to far more interesting problems than just watching handmaids be abused.  She could still have severe consequences to face.  For example, Luke would, beyond doubt, sue for custody of her child.  Legally, since he's still married to June, that IS his child.

I'm tired of all Gilead all the time, and nothing but misery in Canada.  Show us some action and world build.

[The Mighty Peanut]

2 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

This talk about Serena defecting and book deals gives me hives. Seriously. Is her house coming with a white picket fence too?

That's why, not for the first time, I am reminded of Inglorious Basterds when Brad Pitt carves the swatstika on Michael Fassbender's forehead. Imagine this scene except with SJ getting the impromptu cosmetic alteration:

Lt. Aldo Raine: I don't blame ya! Damn good deal! And that purty little nest you feathered for yourself. Well, if you're willing to barbecue the whole high command, I 'spose that's worth certain considerations. But I do have one question. When you get to your little place on Nantucket Island, I 'magine you're gonna take off that handsome-lookin' S.S. uniform of yours, ain'tcha?... That's what I thought. Now that I can't abide. How 'bout you Utivich, can you abide it?

Pfc. Smithson Utivich: [finishes scalping Hermann] Not one damn bit, sir.

Lt. Aldo Raine: I mean, if I had my way... you'd wear that goddamn uniform for the rest of your pecker-suckin' life. But I'm aware that ain't practical, I mean at some point you're gonna hafta take it off. So. I'm 'onna give you a little somethin' you can't take off.

[cut to Landa screaming and crying as Raine carves a swastika into his forehead]

[mamadrama]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Yes!  That's the point, it would be far more believable and interesting than what we've see this year!

Who said she gets away with anything?  It would open up the story and allow us to see more of the world, and lead to far more interesting problems than just watching handmaids be abused.  She could still have severe consequences to face.  For example, Luke would, beyond doubt, sue for custody of her child.  Legally, since he's still married to June, that IS his child.

I'm tired of all Gilead all the time, and nothing but misery in Canada.  Show us some action and world build.

I would LOVE to see SJ get out of Gilead to see what's in store for her. 

[Anela]

I don't think I'll be watching. I'm not sure. If they're talking about emmy submissions, anger, and being devastated, I just can't. I don't want to see Emily tortured anymore. let alone anyone else. 

[PepSinger]

On 6/27/2018 at 9:02 PM, mamadrama said:

In a podcast, Miller said that Serena Joy was shot in the hip, not in the ovary or uterus. He didn't think that people would interpret that as proof of her infertility. He seemed surprise that people's minds went there. He said that he just wanted her shot in a place that was "serious but not life threatening." She could still possibly get pregnant. 

WHAT.

I need you to tell me you are joking, so I can go on with life.

[VagueDisclaimer]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Yes!  That's the point, it would be far more believable and interesting than what we've see this year!

Who said she gets away with anything?  It would open up the story and allow us to see more of the world, and lead to far more interesting problems than just watching handmaids be abused.  She could still have severe consequences to face.  For example, Luke would, beyond doubt, sue for custody of her child.  Legally, since he's still married to June, that IS his child.

I'm tired of all Gilead all the time, and nothing but misery in Canada.  Show us some action and world build.

I just don’t see a story focused on Serena outside Gilead being compelling. Because she’s guilty, I’d want to see her punished, and I’m not looking for a story about Serena behind bars because it’d inevitably become a story about Serena learning the error of her ways. It would be a redemption story and I don’t need to see her character learn or be redeemed. I’d rather see the outside world and outside justice without having to compromise the need to see certain characters meet their harsh fate.

In what way would June’s child with another man, even if kidnapped, be automatically recognized as Luke’s? Marriage is not a parental certificate.

[nodorothyparker]

In most states, a husband is the presumed legal father of a wife's child to the point that a man will often have to petition the court to get out of it if he can show evidence that he isn't.  It's a holdover from English law that predates paternity testing.  Granted, we're talking about Gilead, so probably no more state or federal law to enforce and Luke and June haven't been husband and wife in any sense that the law usually covers in several years.   Google tells me Canada has the same legal standard, so it then becomes an issue of how willing the Canadians might be to cause what would probably turn into an international incident over custody of the child of two noncitizens.

[Umbelina]

21 minutes ago, VagueDisclaimer said:

I just don’t see a story focused on Serena outside Gilead being compelling. Because she’s guilty, I’d want to see her punished, and I’m not looking for a story about Serena behind bars because it’d inevitably become a story about Serena learning the error of her ways. It would be a redemption story and I don’t need to see her character learn or be redeemed. I’d rather see the outside world and outside justice without having to compromise the need to see certain characters meet their harsh fate.

In what way would June’s child with another man, even if kidnapped, be automatically recognized as Luke’s? Marriage is not a parental certificate.

It's not about Serena, it's about the World that Gilead is part of.  Hatred of the character doesn't diminish the skill of the actress or the complex and potentially useful story information she can provide.  While it could be a redemption story, it certainly doesn't have to be, although personally, I'm a big fan of characters evolving.  Serena could evolve into even more of a shrew.  I said nothing about what would happen to Serena after opening up the world to us by using her.  She wouldn't be stoned, Partitioned, or drowned, but she could be hung or executed in the (real, remaining) USA after a trial.  OR she could be used by the USA for propaganda purposes, and for details of Gilead's command structure and things like that, and then discarded.   I don't give a shit what happens to Serena.  What I care about is the show not boring me silly.  There is nothing more for her to do there, than continue to be a villain, and frankly, the writers could decided to redeem her there as easily as they could outside of Gilead. 

I'm all about the world, don't really care about Gilead day to day life anymore.  I GOT it.  Show me something new.

A woman has a child while married, that child is considered to be her husband's child. 

When do I automatically get responsibility for a child?

If you are married or in a registered partnership, you automatically get parental responsibility for your children. Where responsibility is shared between a parent and a non-parent, the presence of the child’s other parent is a factor. The options are: parental responsibility (exercised by one or two parents), joint responsibility (parent and non-parent), sole guardianship (one guardian) or joint guardianship (two guardians).  More at link:  https://www.government.nl/topics/family-law/question-and-answer/automatically-responsibility-for-a-child

Much more here, and how to legally be declared not the father of your wife's baby.  https://www.masslegalhelp.org/domestic-violence/wdwgfh10/husband-not-father

Now if Nick shows up, he could also sue for custody, and the DNA might help with that if he has the child's, and if Luke agrees to give up his legal fatherhood of Holly.

4 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

In most states, a husband is the presumed legal father of a wife's child to the point that a man will often have to petition the court to get out of it if he can show evidence that he isn't.  It's a holdover from English law that predates paternity testing.  Granted, we're talking about Gilead, so probably no more state or federal law to enforce and Luke and June haven't been husband and wife in any sense that the law usually covers in several years.   Google tells me Canada has the same legal standard, so it then becomes an issue of how willing the Canadians might be to cause what would probably turn into an international incident over custody of the child of two noncitizens.

We were posting at the same time!  I agree.  I'd just add that:

Gilead and Canadian law wouldn't matter.  Luke's a US citizen and so is June, so it's what the current US would say about it, not Gilead, and certainly not Canada.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Umbelina

[VagueDisclaimer]

17 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

It's not about Serena, it's about the World that Gilead is part of.  Hatred of the character doesn't diminish the skill of the actress or the complex and potentially useful story information she can provide.  While it could be a redemption story, it certainly doesn't have to be, although personally, I'm a big fan of characters evolving.  Serena could evolve into even more of a shrew.  I said nothing about what would happen to Serena after opening up the world to us by using her.  She wouldn't be stoned, drowned, but she could be hung or executed in the (real, remaining) USA after a trial.  OR she could be used by the USA for propaganda purposes, and for details of Gilead's command structure and things like that, and then discarded.   I don't give a shit what happens to Serena.  What I care about is the show not boring me silly.  There is nothing more for her to do there, than continue to be a villain, and frankly, the writers could decided to redeem her there as easily as they could outside of Gilead. 

I'm all about the world, don't really care about Gilead day to day life anymore.  I GOT it.  Show me something new.

Okay, but if the story outside Gilead follows Serena, it will be about Serena. We’ve seen how the show handles new locations, like Canada and the Colonies, we only followed the characters we knew and nothing outside of that character’s space. World building would be fantastic, but I sincerely don’t need it to be Serena-focused. I’d prefer seeing this new commander of Emily’s to actually help her escape and follow her, a character i’d hope they wouldn’t let just sit around and absorb her environment and actually incite change. 

I’ve watched many shows where I’ve  enjoyed a good story about a character evolving and/or being redeemed. However, there are characters i don’t want to see that with. Serena and Fred are two of them, They are not just followers of Gilead, they are founders. And for me, they can rot, good actors or not.

Regarding Luke fighting for custody, i didn’t know about these laws, though I’d guess if the husband and wife were technically married but separated for several years, there might be some kind of caveat. Ultimately, whatever is on the books, this is TV and TV rules will apply in the end. Who knows what laws have changed in Canada and what remains of the US laws since the formation of Gilead?

Edited July 2, 2018 by VagueDisclaimer

[nodorothyparker]

21 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Gilead and Canadian law wouldn't matter.  Luke's a US citizen and so is June, so it's what the current US would say about it, not Gilead, and certainly not Canada.

That's actually an interesting question though.  The U.S. has been reduced to a fraction of its former territory and at story time has little realistic hope of enforcing its laws over its former citizens who have had to seek refugee status in Canada and as the car radio tells us places like Britain, let alone the domestic terrorists that now control most of its holdings.  While I'm certainly no diplomatic expert, I could see it being left up to Canada since  Luke is a permanent resident there and subject to its laws.  I would imagine it gets even more complicated if the former U.S. were to give Serena with a baby in tow immunity or some guarantee of protection in exchange for her cooperation.   As much as we all may want to see Serena punished in the end, the reality is governments cut those kind of deals all the time if it means getting the bigger fish.  

I do think a deal that offers immunity might not be off the table for her if she starts naming names to bring down Gilead.  How well it might be done, I don't know, but I would still find that preferable to another season of watching her abuse the household help while she coos over her stolen baby.

[GraceK]

Also, again this is idea of anyone suing Serena for custody of Holly makes no sense, cause Serena has no legal claim to that baby no matter where she is. If anything, Fred has more of a claim than Serena since he can claim that Holly is biologically his since he slept with her and could be. In what universe of any court of law can Serena fight for custody over a stolen child she got by being complicit in having someone rape a woman? That literally makes no sense. This magical unicorn dream of a immunity deal I’m sure won’t extend so far as everyone just allowing her to keep her blood baby. And if the runners decide to jump the shark, and have Serena abscond to Canada with Holly, get a immunity deal, write a book, tour the world , hobknob with diplomats and then battle in the courts for custody of this baby like an epic Law and Order episode that would literally be the most hamfisted full of shit storyline that should just be Serena Fan fiction cause it makes no sense.

Edited July 2, 2018 by GraceK

[Umbelina]

40 minutes ago, VagueDisclaimer said:

Regarding Luke fighting for custody, i didn’t know about these laws, though I’d guess if the husband and wife were technically married but separated for several years, there might be some kind of caveat. Ultimately, whatever is on the books, this is TV and TV rules will apply in the end. Who knows what laws have changed in Canada and what remains of the US laws since the formation of Gilead?

Well, we are pretty much set in today's world now, and so far that law is still on the books.  I'd think Alaska and Hawaii may have bigger problems on their hands than attending to changing this centuries old law.

27 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

While I'm certainly no diplomatic expert, I could see it being left up to Canada since  Luke is a permanent resident there and subject to its laws.  I would imagine it gets even more complicated if the former U.S. were to give Serena with a baby in tow immunity or some guarantee of protection in exchange for her cooperation.   

IS Luke a "permanent resident" there, or still just a refugee who doesn't leave for Alaska because his wife is so nearby?  It would be nice if the show would, you know, tell us shit!  ahem

I can see it too.  At any rate, I'm bored with Gilead, anything to expand this show is welcome to me.

27 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

As much as we all may want to see Serena punished in the end, the reality is governments cut those kind of deals all the time if it means getting the bigger fish.  

I can see it too.  Also, I want lights, I want dancing, I want political intrigue and plotting and to know how the rebels are doing.

40 minutes ago, VagueDisclaimer said:

Okay, but if the story outside Gilead follows Serena, it will be about Serena. We’ve seen how the show handles new locations, like Canada and the Colonies, we only followed the characters we knew and nothing outside of that character’s space. World building would be fantastic, but I sincerely don’t need it to be Serena-focused. I’d prefer seeing this new commander of Emily’s to actually help her escape and follow her, a character i’d hope they wouldn’t let just sit around and absorb her environment and actually incite change. 

Why?  It would be one small part of the story, it certainly wouldn't be Serena's show. 

I don't just want her character showing us the world.  I want the Commanders to show us the state of Gilead.  I want Nick to show us what Mayday does, and what Eyes do.  I want Luke to stop mopping around and having flashbacks and start a website or a go fund me.  I want Moira to get out of Canada and go to the USA, first stop, an interview with Oprah on a beach in Kauai, complete with Mai Tais.  I want Emily more involved with Mayday.  I want something NEW for June, not more time in the stupid Waterford dark house.  I want the new Commander to be playing all sides.

19 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Also, again this is idea of anyone suing Serena for custody of Holly makes no sense, cause Serena has no legal claim to that baby no matter where she is. If anything, Fred has more of a claim than Serena since he can claim that Holly is biologically his since technically that’s the lie June is going along with. In what universe of any court of law can Serena fight for custody over a stolen child she got by being complicit in having someone rape a woman? That literally makes no sense. This magical unicorn dream of a immunity deal I’m sure won’t extend so far as everyone just allowing her to keep her blood baby.

June would not be involved at all, so it wouldn't matter what she says.  At best, she may escape (for a time) to that cabin in Maine to make her tapes.  She could perhaps join the resistance and Mayday for real, be a stop on that underground female railroad.

Fred couldn't claim shit, he wouldn't dare leave Gilead, he's a chicken and a fool.  Serena most certainly would not leave without her "baby" but she certainly would include it in any immunity deal, and the current USA may be desperate for information Serena has, and even more desperate for her assistance in getting rid of Gilead via propaganda, not to mention the names she can name and descriptions of where children are kept, identifying women sent to the colonies or current handmaids and where they are assigned.

The custody idea is just ONE idea, I am not invested in it.  It's interesting though, would Luke try to fight?  Would he choose not to?  It would be even more complicated if Nick arrived, but honestly, Nick needs to stay put, his job now should be to expand the worlds of Mayday and the Eyes. 

I don't care about either "love story" I want to see "the rest of Gilead's story."  What I am invested in is more from this show than endless misery, and endless flashbacks.  I'm interested in more than just moment to moment hell in Gilead.  I want more, I already got that part, and I don't need or want to see more of it.  Or at least I don't want that to be the continued focus of this show.

Anything that accomplishes that is fine by me.

ETA

I gave more details in the "Things We Hate" thread about other options for saving this show, because I do think it needs rethinking at this point.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Umbelina

[nodorothyparker]

Nobody ever said any of this made all the sense or that any of it would ever happen.  But this is the same show that pitched the idea of trading handmaids to Mexico like a sack of oranges and did half an episode of June vs. a garage door, so nothing would really surprise me too much.  And something does have to happen beyond golly gee, Gilead sure is terrible.  Mainly, though, it's a billion degrees here and I'm hot and bored and pulling at threads.

[Umbelina]

29 minutes ago, GraceK said:

And if the runners decide to jump the shark, and have Serena abscond to Canada with Holly, get a immunity deal, write a book, tour the world , hobknob with diplomats and then battle in the courts for custody of this baby like an epic Law and Order episode that would literally be the most hamfisted full of shit storyline that should just be Serena Fan fiction cause it makes no sense.

I'm not suggesting any of that.

I'm also not suggesting Serena doesn't pay for her sins and crimes.

Both things are possible.  The world would not welcome her, but the US could still use her.

Again, it's not just Serena's story I want expanded to the world, it's almost all of them.  For those stuck in Gilead I want AT LEAST the world of Gilead expanded beyond Boston.

Also, I really want CIA guy back, whether or not Serena defects.  His viewpoint would greatly expand this world.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Umbelina

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Gilead and Canadian law wouldn't matter.  Luke's a US citizen and so is June, so it's what the current US would say about it, not Gilead, and certainly not Canada.

Canadian law would matter very much if Serena tried to enter Canada with Holly, even if her final destination is the United States of Alaska and Hawaii. Most developed countries don't just let child traffickers pass through.

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

Canadian law would matter very much if Serena tried to enter Canada with Holly, even if her final destination is the United States of Alaska and Hawaii. Most developed countries don't just let child traffickers pass through.

That could be, and could put a spoiler in the USA's plans, but somehow I think they might allow her to go straight to Alaska, the capital.  The USA and Canada seem to still have decent relations, on the show at least. 

Alaska scenes could film on different or redressed stages where they are already filming Canada, and every single day snowy "Boston."

Edited July 2, 2018 by Umbelina

[chocolatine]

12 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

That could be, and could put a spoiler in the USA's plans, but somehow I think they might allow her to go straight to Alaska, the capital.  The USA and Canada seem to still have decent relations, on the show at least. 

 

I really don't see how without it becoming, in @GraceK's poetic words, "the most hamfisted full of shit storyline". There are no commercial flights out of Gilead, only private flights for Gilead-sanctioned trips. Gilead and the US are at war. Serena is a woman and doesn't have free movement within Gilead. It would be too much of a stretch for her to somehow get a hold of a plane and pilot willing to fly her to Alaska or Hawaii, and have her actually manage to escape with a baby unharmed, considering that we've been shown time and time again how difficult it is to escape from Gilead.

Edited July 2, 2018 by chocolatine

[Umbelina]

17 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

I really don't see how without it becoming, in @GraceK's poetic words, "the most hamfisted full of shit storyline". There are no commercial flights out of Gilead, only private flights for Gilead-sanctioned trips. Gilead and the US are at war. Serena is a woman and doesn't have free movement within Gilead. It would be too much of a stretch for her to somehow get a hold of a plane and pilot willing to fly her to Alaska or Hawaii, and have her actually manage to escape with a baby unharmed, considering that we've been shown time and time again how difficult it is to escape from Gilead.

 

Intelligence services world wide are pretty smart.  I'm sure CIA guy has connections with many of them around the world, and since the entire world has boycotted Gilead?  Gilead has no friends.

They could do something like arranging another government "meeting" for Serena and Fred (with the child) somewhere else, and take her from there, who cares where?  Brazil, Iceland, Panama...it doesn't matter.  If the best world intelligence people put their heads together they would come up with a way to make it happen.

Again though, we are completely off on a Serena tangent here.  I want so much more than that, but I do want something else for Serena, and for June.  I don't want another season of them both in that stupid house.  I want them elsewhere and soon.  I don't think it's realistic for the show to kill Serena soon, although they really should kill Fred soon, and have him disgraced, as in the book.

Serena, for all I care can go to Jezebel's, that seems like a fitting end for her, but useless as far as showing us the world.  Personally, I'd love to see her sipping a cocktail in the south of France or on a Greek island, checking her appointment book, her new books next to her, all dressed up in any color but Teal, thinking she has it made, and have a former handmaid introduce herself and shoot Serena in the face.

Or, they could simply kidnap both Fred and Serena, after leaving the baby with Rita.  Serena cuts a deal.

Part of my post from the "hate" thread, to give you an idea about what I want in the

You can't have it both ways, either World Build or have this story be from June's eyes as in the book!  You already left that far behind so start world building and do it now.

Nick's in Mayday AND the Eyes.  We have never seen him talk to anyone about either of those, or at his job.  We had one brief and confusing glimpse of the Eye job with that commander.  Nick is the perfect character, as a double agent, to show us both of those worlds.  Fucking do it.

We have the Canada people, and they are completely wasted drowning in more misery and inaction.  This is your place to show hope, action, the events of the world.  Enough with the flashbacks and darkness, you have enough of that in Gilead.  Show us the world resistance, show us the web and twitter and Facebook and plans!  Show us some joy there!

CIA guy.  Bring him back, and while you are at it, show the USA (Alaska and Hawaii) or at least Alaska.  How hard could it possibly be?  You are filming in Canada already and Anchorage is the new capital of the USA.  What's happening there?  Why aren't we seeing it?  You want 10 seasons?  Then earn it by answering some book questions we've had!

The Commanders.  Just WHAT do they do?  WHO is really in charge?  Does it work by consensus, or do they elect a leader?  I don't want to see a few blurry maps in a Vacation house!  I want to know EXACTLY where the wars are, and who is winning?  What ground is held by rebels?  What weapons does the USA still have?  Are they threatening the world with them?  Is it hand to hand combat in the resistance wars, or are drones and satellites being used?

You showed one nuclear waste colony.  Why aren't you showing the crop colonies, or AT LEAST showing us just how many nuclear waste sites there are, and what areas they are in!  Why can't you grow more crops?  The USA used to export crops, and you can't now, so why don't you have, for example, and abundance of wheat and strawberries and all the rest?

Overall changes aside from keeping consistent canon, following up on previous episodes ect.

You can't have all misery all the time and expect to keep viewers.  There has to be some hope or light to balance the darkness and despair.  Some logical and interesting ways to do that are listed above.  There are more.

Viewers and reviewers will take a journey with you, even if it's a difficult one, but ONLY if you seem to know where you are going, and have an overall plan, beyond "let's keep this thing going as long as possible."  We are losing faith in that, and once it's gone, it's gone.  You have MAYBE one more season to win that back.  Get on that.  Do it quickly or you are killing not only the goose, but it's golden egg as well.

Great acting will not save you, it may still get you awards, but story counts.  Stop just giving characters amazing individual stories, and start to pull them all together in a cohesive way.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Umbelina

[Hollandaise]

On 6/28/2018 at 12:48 AM, ClaireS said:

But maybe some ‘good’ will come from Serena seeing the horrible and unjust execution of sweet, innocent Eden?  Maybe?

And I wonder how Nick will react to his wife's drowning. Will we see ANY emotion or the usual stoic face. He may not love her, but we better see something. He can't have June, can't have Holly and they murder his wife. What will it take for this man to crack?

[VagueDisclaimer]

1 hour ago, Hollandaise said:

And I wonder how Nick will react to his wife's drowning. Will we see ANY emotion or the usual stoic face. He may not love her, but we better see something. He can't have June, can't have Holly and they murder his wife. What will it take for this man to crack?

My favorite thing about the review someone linked for the final episodes from that site focusing on awards was that practically every actor was named BUT Max Minghella. I like Nick, but in another actor’s hands, that could be a great character. 

At this point, I’m most curious about Emily and her new placement with Whitford’s character. I’m hopeful it’ll lead to some interesting story and maybe a different perspective and new development that won’t be reset in two episodes. 

[BellyLaughter]

33 minutes ago, VagueDisclaimer said:

My favorite thing about the review someone linked for the final episodes from that site focusing on awards was that practically every actor was named BUT Max Minghella. I like Nick, but in another actor’s hands, that could be a great character. 

At this point, I’m most curious about Emily and her new placement with Whitford’s character. I’m hopeful it’ll lead to some interesting story and maybe a different perspective and new development that won’t be reset in two episodes. 

Is it too much to wish he's part of the resistance....yeah, probably. *insert frowny face*

[chocolatine]

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Intelligence services world wide are pretty smart.  I'm sure CIA guy has connections with many of them around the world, and since the entire world has boycotted Gilead?  Gilead has no friends.

They could do something like arranging another government "meeting" for Serena and Fred (with the child) somewhere else, and take her from there, who cares where?  Brazil, Iceland, Panama...it doesn't matter.  If the best world intelligence people put their heads together they would come up with a way to make it happen.

 

Joel from Parenthood made it pretty clear that he doesn't consider the "baby on the way" Serena mentioned to be hers. It's one thing for him to try to turn Serena, and quite another to participate in trafficking a child whose mother is being enslaved. I think that's where he draws the line.

Edited July 3, 2018 by chocolatine

[GraceK]

17 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

Joel from Parenthood made it pretty clear that that he doesn't consider the "baby on the way" Serena mentioned to be hers. It's one thing for him to try to turn Serena, and quite another to participate in trafficking a child whose mother is being enslaved. I think that's where he draws the line.

Thank you. The hoops the show runners would have to jump through to justify having Serena keep this baby ( while escaping Gilead no less!), with a full immunity and a sweet book deal is to suspend disbelief so much you might as well make June a secret unicorn who can shit marshmallows while also secretly running the Underground Railroad to Narnia.

Edited July 3, 2018 by GraceK

[mamadrama]

Spoiler summary for ep.12 (from someone who has apparently seen it):

baby is apprehended by the Waterford’s and they keep June at the red centre. She has to pump but her milk supply is low so they bring the baby to her and she starts leaking. Aunt Lydia convinces Fred to take Offred home. She moves back and pumps at the house. He picks up on his creeper vibe. She is not allowed to nurse the baby. Eden runs away with one guard dude. They get caught. They get charged and they are taken to this pool in front of everyone. Given a chance to confess and be forgiven but they don’t. They drown them both in front of an audience.

They are packing up Edens stuff and Offred finds a bible with notes in it. Serena and June have a confrontation about the find because Serena says Eden was full of sin. June flips out. Everyone is shook. Everyone starts to worry about the baby. Emily gets positioned with a new guy. He’s old. His wife is either insane or has witnessed her husbands crimes it’s not really clear. The wife says that the Commander is the one who came up with the whole economical system in Gilead and was the one who invented the colonies.

She gets a knife to kill him during the first ceremony. He refuses to rape Emily for ceremony. Kicks her out. She goes to her room. Next day Aunt Lydia comes over. Starts doing her thing. Emily loses it and stabs Lydia and chucks her down the stairs!!! Stupid ass Martha tells on her and locks her in her room. She’s stuck in there freakin out.

The wives are at a fancy wife thing and start to talk about hearing the concerns about the girl children. And their safety.

 

**I mean, they could just be fucking with us but this DOES sound fairly plausible.

Edited July 3, 2018 by mamadrama

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

Episode 13 Summary from same source 

 

Quote

Episode 13 they start with the wives going to the men’s council of Gilead. The wives approach the husbands to ask them to change the law so the boy and girl children get to learn to read the bible. The husbands kinda get pissed. Serena is leading the women. She unwraps Edens Bible and begins to read. The women are waiting for the decision. The women are dismissed by Fred. The guardians take Serena and CUT OFF HER DANG FINGER! The Waterford’s are consoling Edens father and he says that he is the one who reported her to the authorities. June and Serena start to worry about the baby’s safety.

Nick is shook after Eden is killed. He gets to hold the baby. June says she loves him.

Emilys new commander goes to punish her. Takes Emily and puts her in a truck and they drive off. A fire breaks out across the street from the Waterford’s. It’s a distraction by the Martha’s. They are doing it to get June and the baby out. They flee. They get to the gate. Serena catches them. Crying and begging for them not to go. She balls and hugs baby goodbye and baby and June flee. The Martha’s help them escape. They get to the edge of town. June remembers Hannah. A truck comes by and it’s Emily and the new Commander He is helping Emily and June and baby escape. June gives the baby to Emily and lets them flee. She STAYS.

??UPDATE TO ANSWER SOME QUESTIONS: ??

Lydia isn’t dead. Just critically injured. Fred promises June if she stays she can have more visits with Hannah and they can “try for a boy”.

It looks like they can frame Emily with going insane, setting fires, kidnaping the baby and escaping and stabbing aunt lydia Edens father turns her into authorities not Fred

I only care about Emily's part. She's the feisty lioness all the handmaids should be. All the commanders and their wives would be dead by now.

June staying at the Waterfords' is utter nonsense. It is catering to the popularity of characters/actors. This includes Nick and Serena whom fans love for whatever reason. Remove June from there and they are gone for the most part. The receptiveness will continue to hurt the show next season as it did this one. 

[GraceK]

Of course June stays cause she’s a freakin idiot. Shes of zero worth to Hannah in Gilead and abandons her newborn to someone else. Awesome. One more reason why June is the worst. YAWN. The smart move would be to escape with your baby who physically needs you and work with the resistance from a place of safety and freedom to rescue Hannah instead of staying with your sadistic captors as a slave. But hey who needs logic in this anymore?

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

1 minute ago, GraceK said:

Of course June stays cause she’s a freakin idiot. Shes of zero worth to Hannah in Gilead and abandons her newborn to someone else. Awesome. One more reason why June is the worst. YAWN. The smart move would be to escape with your baby who physically needs you and work with the resistance from a place of safety and freedom to rescue Hannah instead of staying with your sadistic captors as a slave. But hey who needs logic in this anymore?

Don't get me started on Waterford's "We'll try for a boy" 

I am so sick of June's storylines. I don't want to go as far as say it is dragging down the show, but man it has gotten very very close this season. If she makes this bone headed decision and we have to watch her roam around that dark house making eyes at Nick,  and occasionally sassing or making nice with Serena Joy, I am out. 

[GraceK]

5 minutes ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Don't get me started on Waterford's "We'll try for a boy" 

I am so sick of June's storylines. I don't want to go as far as say it is dragging down the show, but man it has gotten very very close this season. If she makes this bone headed decision and we have to watch her roam around that dark house making eyes at Nick,  and occasionally sassing or making nice with Serena Joy, I am out. 

Ive been over June for awhile. If she blows this chance to escape and we are stuck with her again next season in Gilead I’m seriously done. It’s the most repetitive bullshit ever. Elizabeth Moss and her blank , glassy eyed close ups and flaring nostrils I cannot take for another season.

Edited July 3, 2018 by GraceK

[Umbelina]

I'm bored with the Boston focus of the show.  Enough already, we get it.

So Serena Joy gets her finger chopped off?  Was she pointing it at someone?

From those spoilers, it sounds like the Wives all get worried about what will become of the their girl's after Eden's murder shocks and sickens them.  So we have a Wive's revolt brewing?  Interesting.

Also, it sounds like Serena helps Holly escape in that description, but that may just be the way the writer worded it???

[DiabLOL]

I can't take another season of June in captivity I can't and I won't. Like it's been already said how the hell does she figure she's going to "help" Hannah from inside? 

[GraceK]

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

So Serena Joy gets her finger chopped off?  Was she pointing it at someone?

 

???? 

[jhjhjh]

Well if it's accurate...it's better than Serena fleeing with the baby.

And many have theorized that it would be either June or Emily who would be escaping this season. 

[GraceK]

I honestly rather have the focus of the show switch to Emily. She at least makes things happen and takes advantage of opportunities instead being a constant victim. June the constant martyr of circumstances is the most boring and ANNOYING storyline this show keeps repeating.

Edited July 3, 2018 by GraceK

[Anela]

I might watch if Emily really is helped by this guy. 

June abandons her baby, after it's stated that they're all worried about her????? No. I agree that it's just an excuse to keep the Waterfords in it. I wanted her to escape with her child, and work to get Hannah back. If Emily's new commander really is helping them, then she could ask him to help. 

[LittleRed84]

31 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

So Serena Joy gets her finger chopped off?  Was she pointing it at someone?

 

I’m sure that you’re kidding because you seem well versed in the story and are making a joke. But in case not, the first offense for reading in Gilead is losing a finger. The second is the whole hand. 

[VagueDisclaimer]

So, if these summaries are true, a lot of my theories panned out, yet I’m completely unsatisfied.

I never thought June would escape, but I didn’t think it would be her almost escaping once again and it not planning out. She was ready to leave Hannah and fight for her on the outside and all these episodes later and that has changed..how? Escaping with the new baby is even more incentive, I’d say, but nope! 

I was hoping Emily would escape with the help of this new commander, but this other business with stabbing Lydia and the fires and all these crimes pinned on her makes me feel like with Emily leaving, there will be no change in Gilead. THAT is what i wanted and maybe viewing it myself, I’ll think differently. But the Marthas actions are almost negated by having it be about Emily and her leaving that same episode. I want to see the women banning together. 

So I’m looking forward to seeing Emily’s adventures next season, though severely hampered by a newborn that will need formula without her mom nearby and I doubt formula is easy to get. I really hope we see a lot more of Emily next season this way than how her time in the Colonies or Moira is Canada, but i’ll keep my expectations low.

I want to expect more from June’s story next season, that they stalled this entire season, because next season we’ll actually get to see more progress, but again, low expectations. I still like June, I still care about her story, but I have just so much patience for watching an abused woman being forced to run in place as she gets more and more abused. 

Edited July 3, 2018 by VagueDisclaimer

[BellyLaughter]

Josh Lyman is gonna come through for me....oh the possibilities for Emily's story on the otherside.  Fingers crossed.

[Umbelina]

27 minutes ago, LittleRed84 said:

I’m sure that you’re kidding because you seem well versed in the story and are making a joke. But in case not, the first offense for reading in Gilead is losing a finger. The second is the whole hand. 

I was joking.  I thought the punishments were all pretty random.

I don't expect June to escape, and that's OK, but I agree, enough with the missed escapes.  I think June spent a long time in Gilead, but then again, in the book, she thought she was pregnant with Nick's child WHILE she was in the cabin, or was that before she arrived there.

In the book, I never knew if June made it to Canada, in fact, I kind of thought she died in that cabin, or was caught there and returned.

Gilead lasted decades at least, it's not going to be over, and the show is going to show it.  What I need from this show, I described above, more of the world, some hope, some lightness, at least elsewhere.  I'm over flashbacks. 

I want the future and the present elsewhere in Gilead and in the world.  I really want to know about the resistance, and the rebels fighting Gilead, there is so much in that epilogue, and so much of that would make a riveting TV show.  They need to get on with that side of things.

Am I the only one who doesn't think Emily will make it out, that maybe the Commander is just fucking with her?

[VagueDisclaimer]

20 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I was joking.  I thought the punishments were all pretty random.

I don't expect June to escape, and that's OK, but I agree, enough with the missed escapes.  I think June spent a long time in Gilead, but then again, in the book, she thought she was pregnant with Nick's child WHILE she was in the cabin, or was that before she arrived there.

In the book, I never knew if June made it to Canada, in fact, I kind of thought she died in that cabin, or was caught there and returned.

Gilead lasted decades at least, it's not going to be over, and the show is going to show it.  What I need from this show, I described above, more of the world, some hope, some lightness, at least elsewhere.  I'm over flashbacks. 

I want the future and the present elsewhere in Gilead and in the world.  I really want to know about the resistance, and the rebels fighting Gilead, there is so much in that epilogue, and so much of that would make a riveting TV show.  They need to get on with that side of things.

Am I the only one who doesn't think Emily will make it out, that maybe the Commander is just fucking with her?

Dear god, no more fucking flashbacks. This is the one show where I welcome a timeskip. Let’s jump ahead and see change! And let’s get other actresses to play Hannah and let her age too lol! 

Above all else, this show needs to plan an endgame and work towards that and have stories feed into that. Because they can stall their stories all they want, the audience isn’t going to stick around for that. This not a 10-season show, Im hoping for 5, at the most. This season, the show was written like it knew it had a third season in the bag and they needn’t do shit.   They need to write as if they don’t have an unlimited time or audience. Add urgency, but most of all, progress and development.

I really hope the commander isn’t tricking Emily, because that’s literally the only bit of momentum this finale has going for it.