S05.E12: The World Council of Churches

[pennben]

I feel like the ending was Phillip intentionally blowing their cover. They both want out, she wants to go back to Russia, he doesn't and doesn't want to take the kids there. He's done and he'd rather it blow up here. Him taking her hand was his "hang on...here we go" moment.

i could be wrong..at a minimum,however, it is clear he is D.O.N.E. with all of this now.

[crgirl412]

I think Pastor Tim looks more like Philip than his brother.  I wish they would've picked another actor to play Pastor Tim or his brother.

I don't understand why they went to Pastor Tim for advice!  That is so strange!!

[MisterBluxom]

9 minutes ago, crgirl412 said:

I think Pastor Tim looks more like Philip than his brother.  I wish they would've picked another actor to play Pastor Tim or his brother.

I don't understand why they went to Pastor Tim for advice!  That is so strange!!

The only reason I can think of is that gives the Pastor some kind of vested interest in seeing that any advice of his they take will actually help them out.

Since Tim thinks they will all keep in touch, if he gives them any advice, he would want to see them live happily ever after if they take his advice. They would do that if he ever rats on them to the FBI.

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Claudia has to be lying.  I mean seriously, it was such a huge fucking deal that they get second generation spies, and now she's all hunky dory with the entire family moving to the Soviet Union?

Then what was the damn point of all of this?

All the better to keep them controlled and in place for whatever nefarious plans the Center decides on. She doesn't want them to get spooked and defect. That would be terrible for her.

[Bannon]

The characters do stuff that makes no sense to me, like P&E seeking the advice of the man who sees them as being as abusive as child molesters. The dialogue, even involving P&E, seems stilted to me. I think I may be done with the show, which surprises me, but I just don't have much curiosity about these people any longer.

[Umbelina]

It's been uneven and sloppy, but I'm not giving up on the show.  I assume they will have a decent finale, and I'm also going to bet they have a more cohesive plan for the final season.

It's like they blew this season off.  The only real take away is that everyone is miserable and spies ruin everyone's lives including their own.  Oh, and food matters, which I suppose may have something to do with next season, since all it did was waste time in this one.

So, we go into the final season with that, and it could pay off. 

Edited May 24, 2017 by Umbelina

[NitneLiun]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Claudia has to be lying.  I mean seriously, it was such a huge fucking deal that they get second generation spies, and now she's all hunky dory with the entire family moving to the Soviet Union?

Then what was the damn point of all of this?

Perhaps it was a ploy by Claudia not to spook them by telling them to STFU about going home.  You can bet she was on the horn to the Centre as soon as they walked out the door.

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

It's been uneven and sloppy, but I'm not giving up on the show.  I assume they will have a decent finale, and I'm also going to bet they have a more cohesive plan for the final season.

It's like they blew this season off.  The only real take away is that everyone is miserable and spies ruin everyone's lives including their own.  Oh, and food matters, which I suppose may have something to do with next season, since all it did was waste time in this one.

So, we go into the final season with that, and it could pay off. 

The final straw for me this season has been the writers' decision to start writing the characters of P&E stupid, when it fit their needs. Whether it being them being too dumb to grasp that top secret weapons projects aren't secured by 3 dollar locks used on high school gym lockers, or their decision tonight to trust a guy, who views them as dangerous to their children, with the secret that they are considering bringing the children to the Soviet Union, so as to get advice from him (as if they could be certain he wouldn't just nod pleasantly, and then call the FBI as soon as they leave), it's really irritated me. I hate it when writers do that.

[Umbelina]

I think so too.  *to both @Bannon and @NitneLiun Otherwise the show inflicted endless Paige and Father Tim bullshit on us for years, for absolutely no reason.

Father Tim just jaunts off to South America, to an organization infiltrated with KGB no less, or about to be.  Do Phil and Liz care?  Have any worries that away from Paige he may change his mind and go to the consulate and spill his guts about KGB spying against his country? 

No.

While just a few weeks ago and for the past several YEARS Paige needed to stay in contact with him every day. 

I don't know what the writers were smoking this season, but seriously, I feel so let down by what WAS my favorite show.   Nothing is really holding together, including Philip storming off to Pasha's house and ignoring surveillance.  As Liz said in the West Germany episode, it's second nature, she does it all the time now, especially when on a mission.

Hell, Liz better get him out, or he'll get her killed.

ARRRRGHHHH

Edited May 24, 2017 by Umbelina

[Bannon]

11 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I think so too.  *to both @Bannon and @NitneLiun Otherwise the show inflicted endless Paige and Father Tim bullshit on us for years, for absolutely no reason.

Father Tim just jaunts off to South America, to an organization infiltrated with KGB no less, or about to be.  Do Phil and Liz care?  Have any worries that away from Paige he may change his mind and go to the consulate and spill his guts about KGB spying against his country? 

No.

While just a few weeks ago and for the past several YEARS Paige needed to stay in contact with him every day. 

I don't know what the writers were smoking this season, but seriously, I feel so let down by what WAS my favorite show.   Nothing is really holding together, including Philip storming off to Pasha's house and ignoring surveillance.  As Liz said in the West Germany episode, it's second nature, she does it all the time now, especially when on a mission.

Hell, Liz better get him out, or he'll get her killed.

ARRRRGHHHH

The shame of it was that it didn't need to be this way. You're right, it's really hard to understand why these choices were made.

[chocolatine]

2 hours ago, PinkRibbons said:

Although ew Elizabeth for shit's sake don't take the necklace out of the garbage and put it back on Paige's neck without at least rinsing it!

I thought that was hilarious, like it was Elizabeth's way to punish her for not thinking like a "professional" spy that she'll have to keep up the charade until Pastor Tim had left the country.

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Claudia has to be lying.  I mean seriously, it was such a huge fucking deal that they get second generation spies, and now she's all hunky dory with the entire family moving to the Soviet Union?

Note that she didn't directly acquiesce to them leaving. She said that when they're ready, the Centre will put a plan in motion. It could be that the Centre will make P&E run a bunch more long-term operations before they let them move back, and that could take several more years.

I'm glad Misha Jr. is leading a (relatively) free life working in a factory. I thought for sure that after his rogue "excursion" to the US he was going to get locked up, despite what Gabriel had told him. I thought he was very cute and natural with his uncle, aunt, and cousin, despite a very awkward situation.

I'm not sure if it was done on purpose, but I thought Tuan's behavior was in direct juxtaposition to Oleg's. Oleg, despite getting the squeeze put on him by the KGB, still wants to make sure that other people, even those he barely knows, don't suffer disproportionately. On the other end of the spectrum is Tuan, who was oh so pleased with himself for talking someone he had befriended into attempting suicide. At this point I'm not sure Tuan even cares that much about "the cause" - he seems more and more like a sociopath and that all of that is just an intricate game to him.

I'm really loving Henry this season, and now I want P&E to fail all the more so that they don't get to take Henry back to Russia and ruin his life. They can take sad sack Paige (there is no better cure for her kind of idealism than 80s Russia), but please let Henry go to boarding school with his cute friend.

Edited May 24, 2017 by chocolatine

[Ellaria]

47 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The only real take away is that everyone is miserable and spies ruin everyone's lives including their own.  Oh, and food matters, which I suppose may have something to do with next season, since all it did was waste time in this one.

That's my take-away, too. And frankly, I'd rather not stretch out "food matters" into next season because that means the Topeka Wheat Plot may return along with Ben and Deidre. I like Oleg but his bleak storyline consisted of hushed conversations and walks in the cold dark nights without interacting with another major character. Whether the point was misery or corruption or food shortages, I didn't need to be beat over the head with it.

37 minutes ago, NitneLiun said:

Perhaps it was a ploy by Claudia not to spook them by telling them to STFU about going home.  You can bet she was on the horn to the Centre as soon as they walked out the door.

Of course. Claudia is way too cagey. She would never tip her hand, regardless of whether or not she was surprised by their "we want to go home" announcement.

32 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I think so too.  *to both @Bannon and @NitneLiun Otherwise the show inflicted endless Paige and Father Tim bullshit on us for years, for absolutely no reason.

Father Tim just jaunts off to South America, to an organization infiltrated with KGB no less, or about to be.  Do Phil and Liz care?  Have any worries that away from Paige he may change his mind and go to the consulate and spill his guts about KGB spying against his country? 

No.

While just a few weeks ago and for the past several YEARS Paige needed to stay in contact with him every day. 

I don't know what the writers were smoking this season, but seriously, I feel so let down by what WAS my favorite show.   Nothing is really holding together, including Philip storming off to Pasha's house and ignoring surveillance.  As Liz said in the West Germany episode, it's second nature, she does it all the time now, especially when on a mission.

Yes, the Pastor Tim stuff makes no sense. Suddenly, he is their confidant and is rewarded with a new life and opportunity. And his platitudes about raising children didn't seem to square with his diary entries that essentially called them "child abusers." Why seek advice from him? 

Renee is still around (I assume) along with the question of whether or not she is something more than just Stan's love interest. Stan and Aderholt now have a problem with Sofia and her boyfriend. Long runs for short slides in both cases.

Overall, I am disappointed in this season and I doubt that the finale can change that opinion. I enjoyed meeting Misha. I like that he has connected with family, even if it isn't Phillip. I enjoyed seeing more of Henry and will hate it when his dream of attending boarding school is crushed because Mom & Dad do something impulsive. Way too much Paige. I don't care if she becomes a junior spy or not. 

[Umbelina]

More importantly, why tip Pastor Tim off that they are thinking of dragging poor abused Paige to the Soviet Union?

I mean seriously!

In what Universe? 

If anything might push him to continue his quest to save Paige or her soul, it's knowing that she's being taken to a country where she can't worship at all, let alone be caught praying or go to church. 

There is no way spies that have been embedded for most of their lives are going to trust some minister that called them worse than child abusers would give him a head's up that they are about to flee the country.

The hell?

You know, I'm usually one who can suspend disbelief with the best of them, and I'm rarely this critical of a show.  If I'm getting this worked up I normally just stop watching, I don't bitch about it.  I certainly don't enjoy it's downfall.  I stopped watching LOST, and yes, I came back to bitch a bit after the bullshit finale because the writers flat out lied to people for years.

I'm bitching here because I do care, I've really loved this show, faults and all, for 4 years.  It's a damn shame this season has been so outrageously bad, and not just the slow pace, and endless scenes of silent dinners, mopping, and gazing off into the night on solitary walks. 

It simply hasn't made sense. 

Maybe it was the loss of such a strong cast, so many gone, but I honestly think it's the writing.  It's just sucked this season, no, not completely, but mostly.  It's a damn shame.

I've actually enjoyed Oleg's scenes and story the most, at least they make sense.

I also liked many of the new characters, but their stories didn't gel adequately.

I don't get it.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Umbelina

[albaniantv]

This season wasn't like any other season of the Americans, it did work its way subtly and without major payoffs but some of what I learned and am really hoping it will matter for next season:

• the Moscow situation was revealing of the system breakdown in both political beliefs and in the national food production and delivery system and gets us ready to move quickly to Gorbachov
• Oleg and his father and mother have been riven to the core by the brother/son's death, but they are all trying in their own ways to sustain the family as they recalculate what their lives mean  
• similarly Philip and Elizabeth are enduring unwanted relationships and travel to help solve Russia's food crisis, even though each seem to have reached the end of their capacity to "suspend disbelief"  
• our favorite FBI guys are overwhelmed by the possibility that this Russian "couple" are offering them intelligence - while Stan reminds the boss how closely their spiel matches their training about how to recognize Boris and Natasha
• Henry, my favorite character, has figured out what he wants for the next few years of his life and I for one, am hoping his parents and TPTB let him have it, somehow, yet to be defined!
• Philip's brother and son are now together -- looks suspiciously like a happy ending awaiting Philip when he comes home--I want to but can't believe that's going to be Philip's reality. 

One more episode to wrap up this season--

[Umbelina]

Oh, and at this point I don't care if Stan's girlfriend is a hit woman for the KKK he busted.

You can only draaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaag something out for so long writers, before people simply don't give a shit anymore.

[shura]

3 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

I don't understand Stan's boss wanting to move so slowly. In a recent episode, there were several FBI agents discussing how couriers have a "weak spot" when they carry their pouches into a bathroom and one goes inside a stall. Remember? Well this hockey player is now a courier and he is offering his services for cheap. Why doesn't the FBI jump on it?

If some of you think the FBI may be suspecious this hockey player knows they are trying to get a courier and is trying to be a double-agent, I would say that's ridiculous. How would the KGB know that is the one exact spot the FBI is trying to set up for (a courier)? There is no real logical reason the KGB would ever know that was the single soft spot the FBI want and so if they want to "dangle" something in front of the FBI, it would never be a courier - especially if they knew.

All the KGB needs to know is that the FBI is looking at Sofia. Then they offer up a double agent and see where it goes from there. And like Aderholt (or Stan) said, the way Gennady was approaching them was exactly like a lesson at Quantico on how a KGB spy would do it. I did love how Gennady and Sofia just showed up there and started negotiating like that.

[NitneLiun]

30 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

More importantly, why tip Pastor Tim off that they are thinking of dragging poor abused Paige to the Soviet Union?

 

I think Pastor Groovyhair has a rather idealized view of the Soviet Union. It has already been established that he believes the USSR is a greater force for peace in the world than the USA.  He also clearly is sympathetic to Marxist views of the world.  Why else would he advocate unilateral nuclear disarmament by the United States?

I think he is more willing to condemn P&E's abilities as parents than to question the motives of the nation they work for.

Edited May 24, 2017 by NitneLiun

[NitneLiun]

4 minutes ago, shura said:

All the KGB needs to know is that the FBI is looking at Sofia. Then they offer up a double agent and see where it goes from there. And like Aderholt (or Stan) said, the way Gennady was approaching them was exactly like a lesson at Quantico on how a KGB spy would do it. I did love how Gennady and Sofia just showed up there and started negotiating like that.

Has Sofia actually given them anything useful?  The investment banker negotiator in me would immediately push back by saying she must produce before she gets a raise. I would also remind him that I've already gone the extra mile by helping her get her teeth fixed.

[shura]

Well, she has produced Gennady who they are interested in as a KGB courier. Plus the autographed picture of the 1976 Soviet hockey team - there's return on investment right there.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I feel like the ending was Phillip intentionally blowing their cover. They both want out, she wants to go back to Russia, he doesn't and doesn't want to take the kids there. He's done and he'd rather it blow up here. Him taking her hand was his "hang on...here we go" moment.

I feel like it's more that he's willing to take the risk of exposure because he realizes that a successful suicide will bring down a lot of heat on everyone.  I also think that with his guilt concerning the lab worker high on his mind, he can't emotionally handle being a reason an innocent teenager commits suicide, so he needs to make sure it does not happen.     

[Ina123]

4 hours ago, Bannon said:

or their decision tonight to trust a guy, who views them as dangerous to their children, with the secret that they are considering bringing the children to the Soviet Union, so as to get advice from him (as if they could be certain he wouldn't just nod pleasantly, and then call the FBI as soon as they leave), it's really irritated me. I hate it when writers do that.

This.

And why in the hell would they ever go to PT for advice when he is extorting them with that supposed tape a lawyer has. "Oh, it's OK that you are holding that tape over our heads. We still respect your advice," said no one. The guy is about to be out of their lives AND thinks they are child abusers. That one scene was beyond belief.

[rehoboth]

7 hours ago, Knuckles said:

Henry and his girlfriend made dinner, very nice but a normal dinner. Looked like a lavish spread, though.compared to all the food scenes in Russia . I suspect P&E being concerned about names, have not thought about food...or what dinner in Russia might be. They have been away a long time...Oleg's folks live in an apartment at the top of the food chain...I wonder if P&E would end up in Martha's building.

It's more likely they would move the Jennings into Martha's apartment and exile her to the boonies.

[JFParnell]

Wow, I'm feeling like kind of an outlier in this discussion. I'm glad so many of you all liked the ep. But, dang, I thought it was terrible. And dull as dirt. SORRY! Promise I'm not trying to be a troll. But scene after scene of darkened rooms and people relentlessly .... talking! -- and eating or preparing to eat -- and not really moving anything forward. I get it: We're all unhappy in this game. The same complaint as ever: Is anything ever going to happen? I mean really. happen. Week after week of slooow, tiny incremental setup. For ...?

I did find Oleg's discussion of the state of the USSR with his father very moving. I feel for poor Oleg. And they amped it up a tad at the end with that little sociopath Tuan's plan, but still ... on the whole it just felt like more of the same snail's pace. At one point I thought to myself: "It feels like they are actively trolling the people who complain that is is a 'slow' show!"

I guess my problem is I want to see the show the writers clearly do not want to write. lol. Which makes it MY problem, not theirs :)

Glad y'all are having fun though!

[kokapetl]

Claudia took that request so well that she must be lying. Philip and Elizabeth are crazy for asking. Ambiguously accented old men with no American children can go home, the Jennings cannot. IT'S NOT THE PLAN!!

[mascan42]

That last scene brings up an odd question. I'm not sure if we knew before just how close Tuan's house is to Pasha's, but that walk makes it look like there's an FBI surveillance car parked about a block away from Tuan's place, and Phillip and Elizabeth are fully aware of it. Isn't that a bit risky for a team of Soviet spies to set up shop within shouting distance of the very people whose job it is to watch for Soviet spies?

[Ina123]

We've seen the "family", (Dee, Brad and Tuan), walk to the house for dinner before and yes, they've always known the surveillance is there.

[benteen]

Like I said, there's no way the writers of this show can convince me that Philip and Elizabeth would go to Pastor Tim for advice.  It just makes no sense at all and it is the writers throwing any shit onto the wall and hoping it sticks.

That being said, I think the final season will deliver big time last year.  To me, The Americans Season 5 is Justified Season 5 to me, which was the weakest season of that show.

Edited May 24, 2017 by benteen

[Gella]

It just might be easier for the Centre to send P&E home than have them blow operations or possibly defect. So not sure what the play will be.
P&E don't have many (any really) people who know their situation and with whom they can honestly discuss what would be best for the kids. Claudia gave them a BS non answer. So yes it makes some weird sense they'd talk to Pastor Tim. If nothing else he genuinely cares about Paige and he is not against Soviet Union per se. He is taking his own baby to Argentina!
I am tired of the drab Moscow filters. There was sunlight there too. And every single apartment didn't look like they were one step away from a jail cell. Even Burovs' place is dark and depressing. And no, that was not how "Universam" in Moscow would look in mid eighties. I went food shopping with parents all the time. Was it like a supermarket here with endless shelves of cereal? No, but it definitely wasn't the warehouse looking nightmare they keep showing. I mean I get the attempt to show contrast but for a show that is generally very subtle I feel like I am being hit over the head with this. Then again after they didn't even bother to cover up Frankie 457 sign in the last episode I am questioning their research accuracy. And I am not sure why go through the trouble of having legitimately awesome Russian dialogues only to mis-translate them for your main (English speaking) audience.
Tuan is not smart. That attempted suicide would bring so much heat on everyone not to mention destroy any chances of controlling Evgenia. Who knows what she will do in all that grief?
Sofia is toast. That fiance was as fake as they come. I think Stan knows it too.

[SunnyBeBe]

Well, I think that most of my sentiments have already been mentioned.  There would be NO real reason for P & E to go to Pastor Tim for advice about moving.  It's actually bizarre, since, it could trigger him reporting them pronto, since they intend to leave with 2 children.  I did consider his comment about in a few years, they will be able to decide for themselves.  Well, that causes me to suspect that leaving Henry at his school might be an option for them.  I mean, they have the example of Pasha being so unhappy being relocated to a strange country.  So, they set up a trust fund for Henry's education and sacrifice their happiness, by letting him stay behind when they leave. Paige may stay too.  The Center fakes P & E's disappearance as a terrible accident/death/bodies faked or unrecovered.  Paige knows the truth, but, Henry does not and will never know his parent's true identity.   OR, next season, we find the Jennings attending Henry's high school graduation.  Jump to where each person decides where they'll go. 

I was confused as to why Paige threw away her cross necklace.  Just because Pastor Tim is leaving and that's a relief, you don't stop your love for God.  How could she have been so disrespectful as to throw a crucifix in the trash?  It makes me feel a little uneasy and I don't consider myself super religious, like she's been for the last couple of years. 

Edited May 24, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[txhorns79]

Quote

I was confused as to why Paige threw away her cross necklace.  Just because Pastor Tim is leaving and that's a relief, you don't stop your love for God.  How could she have been so disrespectful as to throw a crucifix in the trash?  It makes me feel a little uneasy and I don't consider myself super religious, like she's been for the last couple of years. 

My presumption was that finding out what Pastor Tim truly thought of her situation left her deeply jaded and cynical about religion.  Throwing away the crucifix is only disrespectful if it holds meaning for you.   If it doesn't, it's just a piece of jewelry for which you no longer have use.   

[teddysmom]

Quote

If some of you think the FBI may be suspecious this hockey player knows they are trying to get a courier and is trying to be a double-agent, I would say that's ridiculous. How would the KGB know that is the one exact spot the FBI is trying to set up for (a courier)? There is no real logical reason the KGB would ever know that was the single soft spot the FBI want and so if they want to "dangle" something in front of the FBI, it would never be a courier - especially if they knew.

For all we know the woman was a plant.  The KGB knows that Oleg told Stan something or worked with him.  They may be trying to compromise Stan.  

Stan's fucked up more than once with his assets, ie Nina ending up in prison, ultimately with a bullet to the back of her head. 

[ChromaKelly]

I agree with all the comments re: P&E going to Pastor Tim. What's to say he wouldn't run to the FBI and go OMG these Soviet spies are taking American children out of the country?
I like Oleg, but the Russia scenes are relentlessly depressing. Enough.
I feel like the Pasha storyline is yet another "this is too much", when they've hit "too much" before, but they keep on. 
I'm wondering if the KGB will move on to P&E as the possible leak if they determine it wasn't Oleg. After all, they are Stan's neighbors and P is his BFF.

Edited May 24, 2017 by ChromaKelly

[SunnyBeBe]

I wonder about that woman too.  The woman seems so meek, naive, dense, even.  When she walked in with her fiance, DIRECTLY against what Stan had told her, I thought that either she's going to get people killed OR she's playing them.  

The only reason I see for showing all the corruption and unhappiness in Russia is to let us see how P &E are not going to be happy going back home.  They don't know what we know.  Still.....it's not worth it to me.  I have no interest in it.  The whole Oleg thing.....meh....to me. He's cute, but, it was a real nothing burger for me.  

And that blue hue in Russia.  Someone commented on that before.  It's like someone's job was to insert the blue hue on outdoor Russia scenes. lol

Edited May 24, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[shura]

46 minutes ago, Gella said:

Tuan is not smart. That attempted suicide would bring so much heat on everyone not to mention destroy any chances of controlling Evgenia. Who knows what she will do in all that grief?

Tuan's idea is that Evgeniya will want to go back to Russia after this regardless of whether Pasha survives or not, either out of despair or to finally protect Pasha from all this. It's a theory he is testing, I suppose. I am actually kind of fascinated with how he approached the problem. If what he was doing wasn't working, he figured they'd need to escalate. What would get to Evgeniya finally? Say, Dee, do you have kids? What's that like? You'd do anything for them, huh... I mean, his solution was absolutely sick and possibly short-sighted, but he was goal-oriented to the extreme.

46 minutes ago, Gella said:

Sofia is toast. That fiance was as fake as they come. I think Stan knows it too.

Yeah, there's no way that scrawny dude is a hockey player ;). The whole situation was a laugh riot. Sofia and him show up, our FBI guys are like "what the...", Gennady is all "I love what y'all are doing here, with the treason and stuff, very cool, I'm behind that one hundred percent. Thanks so much. Here's some memorabilia. Btw, $500 doesn't seem enough." And Aderholt was priceless, his face kept going between the "what the hell?" expression and all kinds of polite and "happy for you" faces you make during your normal social interactions.

Sofia doesn't even have to be a plant. If she simply reported Stan and Aderholt's contact, and the KGB decided to use it, this is exactly what it would look like. They'd tell her to mention a guy the FBI would be interested in, then introduce him in person, then he'd try to ingratiate himself with them. Really, she has been leading this whole thing, the FBI is just reacting. At least they know not to trust all this blindly, it appears.

My take on P&E's visit to Pastor Tim was that they may not necessarily have done it for the value of his advice, but maybe in part to show him they trust him completely and value his opinion, just to tickle his sense of self-importance. And he does have experience counselling on this sort of things, this is what he does for a living, so why not listen to what he has to say? Although yes, just coming out and telling him they are taking the kids to the USSR looks a bit risky.

Edited May 24, 2017 by shura

[Ina123]

I've been mulling last night's episode over in my head. I think the fact that Pasha is so unhappy that he was easily led to at least try to commit suicide, will shake P and E to the core with fear of how unhappy Henry will be in Russia. I can see the thought running thru their minds that this could be their family in Russia. Maybe they "come in from the cold". Check out the John LeCarre book, "The Spy Who Came in From the Cold". It's been about 40 years since I read it (making a mental note to re-read), but perhaps they'll go to Stan and turn themselves in, making the sacrifice for their children.  Maybe they can broker a deal for their information that saves them hard time for the rest of their lives. At least they maybe can work out a deal where they appear to be caught by the FBI and are used in a prisoner exchange. We know the US and Russia were both spying on each other and some were caught. I don't know, but it's interesting to wonder what's on the writers' minds.

It's also interesting to note that in the 2001 case that the show is based on, the captured "sleeper cell" spies were sent back to Russia, but their children, being American citizens, are free to come and go.

Of course, this is 1984. We were not as forgiving then.

[SunnyBeBe]

So, do the Russian spies have a no kill policy for children?  We haven't seen it used, but, was this why P & E put the skids on Tuan's plan? (Excluding the rogue Russian teen who they had to kill in self defense.) Or, did they just consider the risks that it was unfeasible?  Were P & E doing their job OR were they reacting emotionally to protect a child? 

Edited May 24, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[Chaos Theory]

3 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

So, do the Russian spies have a no kill policy for children?  We haven't seen it used, but, was this why P & E put the skids on Tuan's plan? (Excluding the rogue Russian teen who they had to kill in self defense.) Or, did they just consider the risks that it was unfeasible?  Were P & E doing their job OR were they reacting emotionally to protect a child? 

Despite Elizabeth being a true believer  she is soft in a lot of ways.  Killing people who get in the way of her "better world" is one thing but when it comes to brutal violence for the sake of brutal violence she does take pause.  Look at the South African story for one.  She also  sees the "big picture" and even though she understands vengeance she is not above sacrificing it for the greater good.  Look at the Venezuela ally she let get killed because she wouldn't back down.  My guess is Tuan isn't seeing the bigger picture in large part because he is young and also because he wants to impress P&E so he comes up with this ambitious plan.  A plan that doesn't figure in two things.  1.  How people react to a child's suicide attempt. 2.  P&E have actually gone out of their way to avoid killing their marks when possible. 

 

3 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

My presumption was that finding out what Pastor Tim truly thought of her situation left her deeply jaded and cynical about religion.  Throwing away the crucifix is only disrespectful if it holds meaning for you.   If it doesn't, it's just a piece of jewelry for which you no longer have use.   

It's also symbolic of Paige's changing loyalties and growing ambivalence and cynicism.

I actually liked the conversation between P&E and Pastor Tim.  Despite their differing ideas PT has been a voice of reason in their lives and he has never been hypocritical about them.  I think his diary was a bit disconcerting but despite that he has always been kind and truthful in what he told them or as truthful as he could be. 

Edited May 24, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[rhys]

Did I blink and miss a conversation about the killings last week?

[jjj]

15 minutes ago, rhys said:

Did I blink and miss a conversation about the killings last week?

No, there was no reference to the killings.  Just the conversation with Claudia about going "back home". 

[SunnyBeBe]

I was impressed with the natural way E jumped in to encourage Pasha's mom to stand up to her husband and insist that it was best for Pasha to return home.  Her contention certainly seemed believable and even I know she's a spy.  But, come to think of it....was she revealing something of truth within her marriage?  It seems like the opposite to me.  Things are almost 99% done her way, but, when Philip is insistent what is best for the kids,.........is this what she was saying?

[jjj]

8 hours ago, NitneLiun said:

Perhaps it was a ploy by Claudia not to spook them by telling them to STFU about going home.  You can bet she was on the horn to the Centre as soon as they walked out the door.

Or, like with William, it could be, "Sure you can go home, but we have just one more assignment for you.  We hope you will survive it." 

[Bannon]

6 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Oh, and at this point I don't care if Stan's girlfriend is a hit woman for the KKK he busted.

You can only draaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaag something out for so long writers, before people simply don't give a shit anymore.

Well, if they can't figure out what to so with her, they can just have her walk down to the Jennings' basement at 11:30 at night, to borrow a cup of laundry soap or something, just as P&E are developing pictures of a suspected weaponized potato, and then Liz can smack her with a bottle of Spray N' Wash,  and Phil can break her neck, and then get all conflicted.

Ya' know, something different.  

[Eulipian 5k]

Quote

I for one am glad TPTB hired professional writer to write the show and not Internet Shakespeares. I see P&E practicing spycraft by keeping Pastor Tim under close handling by Paige and then they went to him to discuss their plans because it puts a lie to PT's diary concerns that : it shows they are thinking about the kids. AND they are getting buy-in from PT. Making him part of their decision. That's a lot better than Stan and Aderholt who just got OWNED by their asset. I trust the writers. They write: I post

[Ina123]

7 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Quote

I for one am glad TPTB hired professional writer to write the show and not Internet Shakespeares. I see P&E practicing spycraft by keeping Pastor Tim under close handling by Paige and then they went to him to discuss their plans because it puts a lie to PT's diary concerns that : it shows they are thinking about the kids. AND they are getting buy-in from PT. Making him part of their decision. That's a lot better than Stan and Aderholt who just got OWNED by their asset. I trust the writers. They write: I post

But, then again, a nice twist would be if PT goes right to the FBI.

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Quote

I for one am glad TPTB hired professional writer to write the show and not Internet Shakespeares. I see P&E practicing spycraft by keeping Pastor Tim under close handling by Paige and then they went to him to discuss their plans because it puts a lie to PT's diary concerns that : it shows they are thinking about the kids. AND they are getting buy-in from PT. Making him part of their decision. That's a lot better than Stan and Aderholt who just got OWNED by their asset. I trust the writers. They write: I post

I don't trust writers who think P & E could be certain enough of the good Pastor's future behavior (especially since he puts P & E on the same plane as child abusers)  to risk telling him their plans to to take the kids back to the Soviet Union. You don't need to be a professional basketball player to accurately state that shooting 3 for 20 is a bad night in the NBA, and you don't need to be a professional writer to accurately state that this is a scenario that stretches credibility as wide as the Grand Canyon. 

If posters are free here to post that they think an episode was great, other poster should be just as free to state a differing opinion, and why, without being labeled, derisively, as "Internet Shakespeares". Fair enough?

[picklesprite]

Sophia sure looked fishy last night. If anything ever screamed, "set up," that did, to me.

Speaking of. . .I'm not taking it for granted that the little family in Russia are really P's bro, sil, and nephew. Maybe they are. Or, maybe Misha is going to be groomed to follow in his dad's footsteps or there is some other nefarious plan for him. It all felt a little too easy to me, just as the Sophia story does, as if somebody's setting him up for something. His supervisor (or whoever that was supposed to be) telling him to "take as long as you want"? Really? On the other hand, this show could make God paranoid. If Gabriel shows up for dinner, we'll know.

I believed Tuan would cause the bullies to increase their torture so much that Pasha would kill himself, so I thought it was a clever twist that he simply persuaded Pasha to do it in order to get his parents to take him home.

[Juliegirlj]

Henry's storyline about wanting to go away to boarding school progressed really quickly- I can't help but think the writers are using it as a back door exit strategy for Henry if the Jenning's do end up going "home". 

Phillip and Elizabeth aren't very creative for espionage agents- any parent that found out their kid's friend may be suicidal would act immediately- that should have been their story with Tuan. In fact, there needn't even have been a suicide attempt, but simply a scenario where the kid talked to Tuan about it. 

[SunnyBeBe]

7 minutes ago, picklesprite said:

Sophia sure looked fishy last night. If anything ever screamed, "set up," that did, to me.

Speaking of. . .I'm not taking it for granted that the little family in Russia are really P's bro, sil, and nephew. Maybe they are. Or, maybe Misha is going to be groomed to follow in his dad's footsteps or there is some other nefarious plan for him. It all felt a little too easy to me, just as the Sophia story does, as if somebody's setting him up for something. His supervisor (or whoever that was supposed to be) telling him to "take as long as you want"? Really? On the other hand, this show could make God paranoid. If Gabriel shows up for dinner, we'll know.

I believed Tuan would cause the bullies to increase their torture so much that Pasha would kill himself, so I thought it was a clever twist that he simply persuaded Pasha to do it in order to get his parents to take him home.

For some reason, when Misha's boss said that he should take as much time as he needs, I got the impression that higher ups had told boss to cooperate and that he knew to follow what they said. AND I THOUGHT that Gabriel had set it up. I mean, who else would have known how to locate Misha AND Phlip's brother.  AND did Gabriel even know the whereabouts of Philip's brother BEFORE he left America? I never heard him mention it to Philip. 

Edited May 24, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[Ina123]

17 minutes ago, Bannon said:

If posters are free here to post that they think an episode was great, other poster should be just as free to state a differing opinion, and why, without being labeled, derisively, as "Internet Shakespeares". Fair enough?

The post was a bit smug.

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, jjj said:

Phillip and Elizabeth were not holding hands in unity -- they suddenly realized they had to look "normal" as they went around the corner and tried to cover their panic.  At least Tuan reminded them about the surveillance -- and that they all have to look like normal neighbors on a stroll.

11 hours ago, Erin9 said:

It can be both things. Hand-holding has been a huge symbol on this show from the beginning for those two.

10 hours ago, PinkRibbons said:

I hope this is the wrap-up for Mischa Jr. this season. He finally has a family. I wish we'd heard more about Philip having a big heart as a kid more than how smart he was, but still. I wonder if the brother knows about Paige and Henry the way Elizabeth's mother knew?

 

9 hours ago, pennben said:

I feel like the ending was Phillip intentionally blowing their cover. They both want out, she wants to go back to Russia, he doesn't and doesn't want to take the kids there. He's done and he'd rather it blow up here. Him taking her hand was his "hang on...here we go" moment.

 

The family scene was like another tease for me where I think we may get something about Philip but instead I get more stuff about people technically and tangentially related to Philip who can't or won't talk about him. I liked the obvious parallel to Henry but I hope they go somewhere with it.

Philip has zero reason to blow their cover. Philip could kidnap the kids and bring them to Russia himself and people would still insist that Philip would never go back to Russia.

8 hours ago, NitneLiun said:

Perhaps it was a ploy by Claudia not to spook them by telling them to STFU about going home.  You can bet she was on the horn to the Centre as soon as they walked out the door.

Exactly. She might be dumb enough to think they'd be happy about Variant V but there's no reason for her to react anything but calmly to what they're saying. It's not like she's scheduling plane tickets. Just give the Centre the heads up that they're getting antsy. 

7 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I thought that was hilarious, like it was Elizabeth's way to punish her for not thinking like a "professional" spy that she'll have to keep up the charade until Pastor Tim had left the country.

I thought it was hilarious for her dramatic gesture to get dismissed.

7 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Yes, the Pastor Tim stuff makes no sense. Suddenly, he is their confidant and is rewarded with a new life and opportunity. And his platitudes about raising children didn't seem to square with his diary entries that essentially called them "child abusers." Why seek advice from him? 

 

I don't think he really sees them as child abusers--he sees their situation as having the effect of child abuse. But regardless, yes, I don't see how they could assume Pastor Tim wouldn't react like many viewers and see the USSR as hell that no US child could survive. 

2 hours ago, Gella said:

And I am not sure why go through the trouble of having legitimately awesome Russian dialogues only to mis-translate them for your main (English speaking) audience.

Nobody's mis-translating. The dialogue is written in English and then the Russian translators have the freedom to write a scene with the same meaning that sounds more natural in Russian.

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Excluding the rogue Russian teen who they had to kill in self defense.) 

What teen was that? I don't remember them doing that.

1 minute ago, picklesprite said:

Speaking of. . .I'm not taking it for granted that the little family in Russia are really P's bro, sil, and nephew. Maybe they are. Or, maybe Misha is going to be groomed to follow in his dad's footsteps or there is some other nefarious plan for him. It all felt a little too easy to me, just as the Sophia story does, as if somebody's setting him up for something. His supervisor (or whoever that was supposed to be) telling him to "take as long as you want"? Really? On the other hand, this show could make God paranoid. If Gabriel shows up for dinner, we'll know.

 

Why would he need to be groomed? If he had the same potential the Centre saw in Philip they presumably would have seen it already and he wouldn't be working where he is now. Presumably Gabriel simply had the Centre contact the brother because he feels guilty about preventing the meeting with Philip. If the KGB says to let the kid take as long as he wants, you let him take as long as he wants. Also, I wonder why Philip's brother is now in Moscow. What does he do? Does he get any info about Philip? How come Elizabeth got to get tapes--did Philip get them? 

As much as I rolled my eyes a little at fighting!Paige, it was a relief to see her obviously ready to move forward and get out of the depression--and I do like the subtle point that Pastor Tim was simply an oppressive presence in her life by then. It was kind of funny how her own scene with Pastor Tim was less warm than the one with her parents, but I feel, again, like part of the reason for that is that Pastor Tim has become more appropriate since he had a child of his own (who he is apparently going to call "Claire Louise" rather than just Claire). He seems to understand the difference now between being a parent and a play-parent and his alliance has shifted. He's no longer some guy coming into the house to back Paige up against her parents.

Also I liked the blocking on the scene where Paige asked about their name. Elizabeth instinctively moves to Philip's side so they're facing her like in that original confrontation.

Paige, btw, seems to really enjoy being the third parent, in her mind, praising her parents for letting Henry go to the school because, you know, it'll be so good for him. I think some of Paige's feelings about this are kind of icky, even if she doesn't acknowledge it.

Speaking of Paige getting her fight back, please let her father follow suit. There's all this stuff with Philip with EST and these little hints about his past that seems like it should be leading him to some source of inner strength, but as of yet he still doesn't seem to have found his feet enough. I don't mind waiting if the writers feel he needs to go through stages before he gets there, but get him there, please. It seems like he'll just have some ep where he's in despair and then the next ep he'll be back to being okay but fragile, and then it's another topple into the pits of despair.

Like the stuff with the boarding school, I get it all being set up as Henry having this perfect life he wants for himself for the next few years that his parents would be terrible to disrupt. But I'd be more interested in getting a clearer picture of Philip's ambivalence about it given his own experience because I think he probably does have a point and an understanding here that others are missing.

Tuan seems to have forgotten that the point of getting Evgenia back to Moscow is to use the affair with the CIA guy against him. If her son kills himself she'll probably have zero interest in having an affair. She already felt guilty about it when she saw Alexei trying and having her kid attempt suicide would give her every reason to dump her boyfriend and concentrate on her son along with the other person who cares about him. 

I wish I felt like I could track Tuan's whole deal better. He starts out being a crazy OTT agent who seems to want to shoot everyone in the head, especially this Pasha kid. Then he's constantly asking Philip and Elizabeth to spend more time there for reasons that aren't completely made clear--it doesn't seem like their absence was noticed, so was it personal? Then he gets caught calling his foster brother--was this the result of his loneliness at not having the these two people around? Then he goes back to being bloodthirsty and also reckless, coming up with a violent plan without even talking about it with his partners. Is this his way of making up for the phone call? I feel like it should be easier to *see* how these things fit together instead of my having to speculate at how I guess these things seem related.

I mean, I can't help but compare him to S2's Lucia who was so clear having a similar arc. 

[Sarah 103]

3 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

OR, next season, we find the Jennings attending Henry's high school graduation.  Jump to where each person decides where they'll go. 

I could see time a time jump in the series finale. We jump ahead 2 or 3 years to graduation, and then there's title cards telling us what ultimately happened to everyone. 

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

So, do the Russian spies have a no kill policy for children?  We haven't seen it used, but, was this why P & E put the skids on Tuan's plan? (Excluding the rogue Russian teen who they had to kill in self defense.) Or, did they just consider the risks that it was unfeasible?  Were P & E doing their job OR were they reacting emotionally to protect a child? 

Death is supposed to be a last resort. Philip and Elizabeth thought they could get where they needed to be with Pasha and his family some other way. 

42 minutes ago, Juliegirlj said:

Henry's storyline about wanting to go away to boarding school progressed really quickly- I can't help but think the writers are using it as a back door exit strategy for Henry if the Jenning's do end up going "home". 

Phillip and Elizabeth aren't very creative for espionage agents- any parent that found out their kid's friend may be suicidal would act immediately- that should have been their story with Tuan. In fact, there needn't even have been a suicide attempt, but simply a scenario where the kid talked to Tuan about it. 

I'm guessing that's going to happen next week. If there's police or EMTs, and anyone asks why The Eckharts are there, they'll say our soon told us his friend was suicidal, and we had to go check on him. If Tuan can stick to the story, it will look like they got there just in time.