S12.E21: There's Something About Mary

[Diane]

MARY VS. TONI BEVELL – Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) are alarmed when they learn hunters are being killed by suspicious “accidents” all over the country. They decide it is best to find Mary (guest star Samantha Smith) and make sure she’s safe. Meanwhile, Toni (guest star Elizabeth Blackmore) is back in the states and she and Mary face off. Writer: Brad Buckner and Eugenie Ross-Leming, Director: P.J. Pesce.

[Mick Lady]

Come on catrox! Lead us in! 3,2,1...

[gonzosgirrl]

Is there anyone who didn't instantly know this would be an episode title this season the moment we saw her in 11x23? LOL!

[catrox14]

[Mick Lady]

Way to go catrox! Now this thread can begin!

[bettername2come]

Eileen! I saw someone predict this based on the promo but no! No! Sigh. There goes my Sam/Eileen ship. Stop killing the good female characters! Stop killing the good characters!

I did enjoy Lady Torture dropping some truth bombs about John on Mary. I mean, I hate her, but that was information Mary needed to hear. Mary begging Ketch to kill her was sad. I was hoping for more Badass Mary, but I found the scene believable enough.

So the Winchesters check all over the kitchen and the telescope before they look under the main table they work at?

Lucifer turning the tables on Crowley was deeply amusing. These are serious actors in a serious show. Crowley flying into walls will never not be funny.

Good shootout scene. I'm such a sucker for any kind of coordinated attack between Sam and Dean. And then Dean with that slide. Guh. Dammit, Mary. No.  Poor Dean, trying to get through to her.

What kind of idiot leaves the Winchesters with 2 to 3 days to die? I mean, have you met them? Cheating death is kind of their thing.

Holy crap, Lucifer changed clothes!

[gonzosgirrl]

This episode has put my rage meter off the chart. And not for the reasons they probably wanted it to. I wonder if Mark S asked to be killed off after being forced to act out this story line? And surprise!! Dean got knocked on his ass again. But the most egregious thing of all is Mary finding out about her boys' lives from the blonde twat. I have officially crossed over to hate for Dabb & Company.

[catrox14]

Fuck this show.  I knew Eileen was gonna die. What a fucking terrible episode all the way around.

Buck Lemming are horrible horrible writers. 

I am very upset about Ketch having Dean's gun. That is really bullshit.

Crowley isn't dead. Olivette is gonna save him.

Why do the boys have a stupid P.O.Box.

Why can Ketch turn off the power and water, when it was never known how it worked?

And that big ass bug right next to Dean's gun the whole time, and he never notices it.  Wow.

Fuck off Buck Lemming just fuck off.

[Lemuria]

Well, the one good result of Luci being back on top is that the BMoL are going to be really surprised when they find out that their deal with Hell is kaput.

Interesting that Crowley didn't light up when the angel blade was used--and how come Luci didn't notice that?--and there was a rat/ferret that followed the demons dragging Crowley out.  Rowena??  Whatever the former coven leaders name is? [Olivette.  Thanks Catrox]

Edited May 12, 2017 by Lemuria

[catrox14]

Just now, Lemuria said:

Interesting that Crowley didn't light up when the angel blade was used--and how come Luci didn't notice that?--and there was a rat/ferret that followed the demons dragging Crowley out.  Rowena??

I think that was Olivette the Hamster. IMO that isn't Crowley at all. I think he's hiding away in the recesses of his lair, and it was a doppel ganger. I can't believe they would give Crowley such a lame death.

Lady PleaseAsyphxiateImmediately being trapped with the boys is fucking stupid. Don't make her a hero you dumbassess

[G-Man]

2 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

Interesting that Crowley didn't light up when the angel blade was used--and how come Luci didn't notice that?--and there was a rat/ferret that followed the demons dragging Crowley out.  Rowena??  Whatever the former coven leaders name is?

That was Crowley who escaped into a rat 

[lmdreamer]

what if crowley some how possessed the rodent without  luci or the demons seeing it?

[Lemuria]

Catrox, if they think anything she does in the next ep will redeem her, they continue to be really stupid about how what they've been writing hits that part of the audience that isn't them.  Which is pretty much everybody.

Quote

That was Crowley who escaped into a rat 

Ooo, good idea.

Edited May 12, 2017 by Lemuria

[trudysmom]

I agree it was either Crowley or maybe Rowena.  But I feel so vindicated seeing Dean angry over LadyBitchFaces taunting about Retch and his mom  I KNEW he'd be pissed.  My first thought about them being sealed in the bunker:  Go to Oz!! :)

[MysteryGuest]

I think Crowley's death was a total fake out.  He's in the rat that was scurrying around and then chasing after his body at the end.  I'm glad...I didn't want to lose Mark.  I'm not exactly sure how he could do that without actually smoking out, though.  I'm sure they'll show us how he did it next week.

The idea that Mary is just finding out some of these things about John now is a bit ridiculous.  You would think his journal alone would have tipped her off that he was a wee bit obsessed.  Not to mention gone from the boys quite a bit.   I'm not buying that.  And her brainwashing went pretty quickly from her begging to be killed to perfectly wiling to kill her own sons.  I wonder just how much time was supposed to have passed at that point?

How exactly did the spell on Lucifer just magically reverse itself and become a spell on Crowley?  While completely predictable that Lucifer was going to escape, they certainly could have come up with something better than that.  I really hate Lucifer, and I hate that he makes Crowley look like a complete asshole all the time. They can't kill him off fast enough to suit me, but I know that's not going to happen.  I think Dabb is in love with Lucifer.

They certainly didn't waste any time in dispensing with Eileen.  I'm sorry they killed her off, but I'm happy for the actress if she has another project lined up.  I wonder if Garth and Claire are now safe with the show, or if there will be more deaths to come next week?  

[Jediknight]

Screw you BMoL for killing Eileen.  You bastards should go straight to Hell.

So instead of having Lady Bevill flipping the bird to the BMoL and joining the Winchesters, she's going to join them because Ketch turned on her.  Come on guys, if you want to redeem her, have it be a choice.

Crowley's totally the rat.

[Boopsahoy]

8 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

Well, the one good result of Luci being back on top is that the BMoL are going to be really surprised when they find out that their deal with Hell is kaput.

Interesting that Crowley didn't light up when the angel blade was used--and how come Luci didn't notice that?--and there was a rat/ferret that followed the demons dragging Crowley out.  Rowena??  Whatever the former coven leaders name is? [Olivette.  Thanks Catrox]

I thought Crowley somehow went into the rat-it was there before he was stabbed and then followed the body-so I say Crowley lives!

Was that Jody Mills in the coming attractions with Mary???? I am pissed as hell about Eileen but if Jody....I will never forgive the writers.

[MysteryGuest]

3 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

So instead of having Lady Bevill flipping the bird to the BMoL and joining the Winchesters, she's going to join them because Ketch turned on her.  Come on guys, if you want to redeem her, have it be a choice.

Yeah, I'm not going to buy that she'll suddenly see the error of her murderous ways simply because the boys save her life.  She's a cold-blooded bitch.  I was honestly hoping that Sam would have just shot her when they were in the car and she was going on and on about all of the hunters they'd killed, not to mention Mary's relationship with Ketch.  That would have been immensely satisfying!

[7kstar]

16 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

Interesting that Crowley didn't light up when the angel blade was used--and how come Luci didn't notice that?--and there was a rat/ferret that followed the demons dragging Crowley out.  Rowena??  Whatever the former coven leaders name is? [Olivette.  Thanks Catrox]

 

13 minutes ago, G-Man said:

That was Crowley who escaped into a rat 

Now I'm not caught up this season, but I thought it was Crowley in the rat or perhaps his dear old mom, but I don't believe Crowley is dead.

Everything was sooooo predictable.  Actually a little on the boring side.  Yes, it can be fine to do what we think your going to do, if you make us care but even if Crowley was dead, it didn't mean much to me. 

Killing another female character, so overdone.  I wish I felt excited about the finale but right now not sure I care.   I hate they brought Mary back for this.  May be one of the worst eps...yes I know there are others that beat it as the worst, but part of me just wants to delete it.  Maybe this should have been the last season...

I wished I felt more upbeat.  I'll try to avoid saying anything more for those that enjoyed this mess.  Sorry Sue B if this post is too negative.  I'll stay away for a bit and maybe I'll change my mine with some time.  :(

Edited May 12, 2017 by 7kstar

[MysteryGuest]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Why can Ketch turn off the power and water, when it was never known how it worked?

Because the BMOL know all things...or so we're supposed to believe.

[catrox14]

Just now, Lemuria said:

Catrox, if they think anything she does in the next ep will redeem her, they continue to be really stupid about how what they've been writing hits that part of the audience that isn't them.  Which is pretty much everybody.

Look what they did to Mary? I have zero faith they won't do something stupid.

[G-Man]

I'm more curious to see how lucifer will be stopped will he be trapped inside the cage or will they kill him off 

[MysteryGuest]

1 minute ago, G-Man said:

I'm more curious to see how lucifer will be stopped will he be trapped inside the cage or will they kill him off 

I'll take either one of those options, thank you very much!

I'm confident that Mary will snap out of her stupor soon enough.  For just a second, I saw a glimmer of humanity in Ketch during their conversation.  I think he really does have feelings for her, which makes me think it will be Mary who eventually kills him.

[catrox14]

All I know, if the power is going out in the bunker then it should get REALLY hot and we are OWED shirtless or one layers for the boys!!!

[Boopsahoy]

I need to rewatch without commercials-but there was a lot I liked in the episode. That fight scene in the bunker was great.   I liked that there was a moment or 2 when a glimmer of humanity peaked out of Ketch-that will be his downfall. I hate that they killed Eileen and what they did to Mary....despicable. I'm glad I caught that rat by Crowley-otherwise I would have been sooo pissed if he was dead. I really enjoy Crowley. 

[Reganne]

This episode has kinda pissed me off.  Lol.  First, they kill off Eileen and now it looks like they are setting up Lady Toni for some kind of redemption arc.  I don't like it at all.  With that said, I still enjoyed most everything else.

Edited May 12, 2017 by Reganne

[MysteryGuest]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

All I know, if the power is going out in the bunker then it should get REALLY hot and we are OWED shirtless or one layers for the boys!!!

That's a lovely vision, but I don't see it happening...unfortunately!

I want Sam and Dean to be shown to know more about the Bunker than the annoying BMOL.  Obviously, they get out somehow, but I want it to be because they're more clever than the know-it-all Brits. No offense to British people intended.  :-)

[catrox14]

I'm actually annoyed that Sam lumped Eileen in with all the other hunters . I really thought he had a deeper connection to her and that he'd really go off about her death. I don't know if that was a writing thing or what but I'll say it was disappointing.

Also, really BuckLeming? A fucking sex joke after Dean gets kneed in the nuts by Lady IHateHerSoMuchItIDontFeelLikeBeingClever? 

[supernatural666]

My dad thinks that Lucifer JR might have helped his dad escape,There better not be an atom left of Lady Toni Bevell and Ketch after the finale.

[MysteryGuest]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I'm actually annoyed that Sam lumped Eileen in with all the other hunters . I really thought he had a deeper connection to her and that he'd really go off about her death. I don't know if that was a writing thing or what but I'll say it was disappointing.

Also, really BuckLeming? A fucking sex joke after Dean gets kneed in the nuts by Lady IHateHerSoMuchItIDontFeelLikeBeingClever? 

I think Sam did show quite a bit of emotion where Eileen was concerned.  I don't think he was in love with her, but he definitely cared about her, and he had tears in his eyes a few times.  And Dean seemed to keep side-eyeing him a bit to make sure he was ok.  At least that's how I interpreted it.  I think they might have kept her around longer, had she not had another project to work on.  

As for the sex joke, Dean has a history of making those comments, so that didn't really bother me.  It seemed pretty in-character to me.  

[catrox14]

So, Eileen's death begs the question...Did she and Sam have the sex? I don't know whether I want this to be true or not. Conflicted.

[auntvi]

@MysteryGuest

Quote

How exactly did the spell on Lucifer just magically reverse itself and become a spell on Crowley?  While completely predictable that Lucifer was going to escape, they certainly could have come up with something better than that.  

That was too convenient. I can't imagine why Crowley would release Lucifer, but I don't think assistant demon figured it out himself. 

Why the fuck did they find it necessary to suddenly shoehorn Crowley into the BMOL storyline? Except that Bucklemming likes to hear him talk. 

[MysteryGuest]

Quote

So, Eileen's death begs the question...Did she and Sam have the sex? I don't know whether I want this to be true or not. Conflicted.

I don't think their relationship got to that level.  I think there was a mutual attraction, but she wasn't around all that long the last time and she had to leave in quite a hurry.  I feel bad that she was trying to get to them for protection and they never knew it until it was too late.  I know they feel it adds to the suspense and drama to kill recurring characters off all the time, but I'd be perfectly happy if they just left town instead.

Edited May 13, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[rue721]

The BMOL is so confusing. Here's Toni dropping truth bombs about Winchester family business on Mary, after asking Sam dumbass, know-nothing questions like "how were you recruited?" Here's Ketch casually shutting off the bunker's power, water, and air, after only infiltrating it last week by sticking bugs straight out of the USSR on every available surface.

Also, if they have perfected mind control, THIS is what they use it for? Why not use it on Mick instead of wasting him, for starters.

[Wynne88]

I don't think anybody but Crowley could have reversed that spell.  It was pretty much immediately after his visit when they discovered the spell was reversing.  I agree that he's not dead, so maybe he did it so that Lucifer would lead him to his son.  At which point I sincerely hope that he has a way to shunt him back to the cage. 

Quote

I think Sam did show quite a bit of emotion where Eileen was concerned.  I don't think he was in love with her, but he definitely cared about her, and he had tears in his eyes a few times.  And Dean seemed to keep side-eyeing him a bit to make sure he was ok.  At least that's how I interpreted it.  

I agree with this.  Sam doesn't really say a lot that shows much emotion anymore, does he?  He's too damn zen about everything.  I figured she was toast, although I do question Ketch's ability to control a hellhound.  How the heck does that work?  

I can believe that the BMOL understand the inner workings of the bunker better than Sam and Dean.  Historically some MoL built it after all.  But I'm betting they don't know about anything that may have occurred there during their residency - like Oz.

I liked the episode over all.  For me, it was one of the dreadful duo's better offerings.

[Lemuria]

Quote

How exactly did the spell on Lucifer just magically reverse itself and become a spell on Crowley?  While completely predictable that Lucifer was going to escape, they certainly could have come up with something better than that.  

These are the guys that turned reapers, who had been something different, into unimportant angels, and Death into somebody who would allow "rogue" reapers to keep existing, just to get themselves out of having to find a clever way to get Sam into Hell for the 2nd of the Idiot Trials.  

[catrox14]

Just now, MysteryGuest said:

As for the sex joke, Dean has a history of making those comments, so that didn't really bother me.  It seemed pretty in-character to me.  

Not only did he get his gun taken away, AGAIN, but kneed in the nuts, too.  FTR, I'd be pissed about any character that made that stupid joke. It just doesn't suit Dean anymore IMO, not at this point of his life, it's a poor caricature and regressive IMO. I hated it. YMMV

[SueB]

I'm going to rewatch because this one was definitely rewatchable IMO.  But I'll give a short "good/bad/fugly" review:

The Good:
- Mary got some home truths about John.  About f*cking time but I'm glad she got that info.  The boys would never characterize it that way. I just hope she lives and remembers it.
- Crowley the rat.  Hee.  We could see Luci was going to get one up on Crowley. I like this as his option for escape.  Evidence: Luci turns away for a moment, the rat is conveniently there, Crowley was dead-eyed when stabbed, there was no flashy light, the rat followed his body
- The fight in the bunker. Good action packed scene.
- Mary brainwash story. I actually LIKE this plot twist.  It SUCKS for Mary, but I'm not feeling the Mary love these days.  I also liked that she tried to kill herself (oh, that sounds TERRIBLE... I am NOT a fan of suicide! I'm just appreciating that she's trying to take out a threat... FICTION ONLY... suicide is BAD).  Put differently, Mary understands what a threat she is and she'd rather die than be that horrible person.  I appreciate that.  
- Smart Sam & Dean.  That's always a plus.  
- The snail mail.  I like that they still have a dead-drop PO Box. 
 

The Bad:
- Hess. She's just 2-D.  I REALLY need her killed by dirty hunters with dirty hands who strangle her while they have left over egg in their beard and that's the last thing she sees before going to hell.  Sorry... lost myself for a moment.  I just want a comeuppance for her BIG TIME.
- Lady Toni SUCKS. She needs to die. Horribly.  There's nothing redeemable for me.  So... if they are setting her up to die - fine. If they try to turn her around -- NOPEVILLE.
- Yes, the table was the obvious location for the bug.  

The Fugly:
- Killing Eileen.  That is SO LAST CENTURY. Buck-Lemming are showing their age.  I know this was probably Dabb's decision but it's a STUPID F*CKING decision and I don't like how they wrote the death. Dog MAULED.  NOT COOL.  It was not respectful.  As usual.
- Crowley lent them the Hell Hound?  Enjoy being a rat you schmuck. 

[Bergamot]

Did Mary actually say, before begging Ketch to kill her, "The only thing I've ever had, beside my family, was my WILL"? In the first place, who talks like that? In the second place, what does that even mean -- is this supposed to be a big tragic moment for Mary? She doesn't want to die because, since she has come back, she has hurt and betrayed and deceived her sons, and as a result of her willful blindness and stupidity has aided a group of psychopathic killers and caused the death of people like Wally. That's okay, I guess, because she wanted to do those things. No, she only wants to die because she can't bear to be made to do anything against her will. What a bizarre and repulsive character she is.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, auntvi said:

Why the fuck did they find it necessary to suddenly shoehorn Crowley into the BMOL storyline? Except that Bucklemming likes to hear him talk. 

I'd rather Crowley be involved than stupid Lucifer. I am so sick of Lucifer.

I'm wondering if there will some heretofore unknown level of demons like Princes of Hell that makes their connection worthwhile. It was pretty stupid.  Although I did wonder about it when they were first introduced. I have to go back and check my posts.  I think I threw it out as a swag.

[Casseiopeia]

2 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Did Mary actually say, before begging Ketch to kill her, "The only thing I've ever had, beside my family, was my WILL"? In the first place, who talks like that? In the second place, what does that even mean -- is this supposed to be a big tragic moment for Mary? She doesn't want to die because, since she has come back, she has hurt and betrayed and deceived her sons, and as a result of her willful blindness and stupidity has aided a group of psychopathic killers and caused the death of people like Wally. That's okay, I guess, because she wanted to do those things. No, she only wants to die because she can't bear to be made to do anything against her will. What a bizarre and repulsive character she is.

As Dean Winchester famously said...

[ZennyKenny]

"Tonight, on a very special episode of Supernatural: Lucifer fingers Crowley."

- Oh just a big middle finger for killing off Eileen.

- It's just unreasonable how much I despise Lady What'sherface even though she's barely been in this season. I hate her so much more than Ketch, and I have no idea why.

- I liked the rising and sliding camera angles that were used as the boys were searching for bugs.

- Lucifer would NOT need "English" at the words "reversed polarity", come on.

- Speaking of Lucifer... yes! I LOVE when his playful side comes out!

- "You keep that up, we're gonna have to start dating". God I love Dean's one-liners.

- the entire time Lady What'sHerFace was talking to the Winchesters in the back seat of the Impala I kept saying "Sam, shoot her in the leg. Sam, just shoot her in the leg."

- Oh my! Lucifer flexing his wings and winking? I'm not gay, but... damn.

- rolled me eyes at Lucifer stabbing Crowley. How dumb do you think I am, show? There wasn't even any flash.

- "It's almost.. poetic." No, Ketch. It's an outdated trope for the villain to leave the hero alive in a trap, as opposed to just killing them, that got tired back in the 80s with the James Bond movies.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Did Mary actually say, before begging Ketch to kill her, "The only thing I've ever had, beside my family, was my WILL"? In the first place, who talks like that? In the second place, what does that even mean -- is this supposed to be a big tragic moment for Mary? She doesn't want to die because, since she has come back, she has hurt and betrayed and deceived her sons, and as a result of her willful blindness and stupidity has aided a group of psychopathic killers and caused the death of people like Wally. That's okay, I guess, because she wanted to do those things. No, she only wants to die because she can't bear to be made to do anything against her will. What a bizarre and repulsive character she is.

I thought about that too. I thought for sure she was going to say "Hunting" . Like I didn't get that line at all. I mean I know what those hacks were going for. This big 'I WILL NOT BE BEATEN BY YOU"...but Mary that doesn't really help your case. Like if her will was so strong then I guess it just didn't matter when it came to her boys and finding the will to get to know them?

I was really hoping someone would push Lucifer off a cliff.

[bethy]

On Ketch leaving Dean and Sam in the bunker to die:

 

and...

[rue721]

Honestly, I was not hating Toni as much as usual in this episode, because she had some good lines. When she said that Ketch had said Mary was one of the best he'd ever had, and Dean stopped the car, and she was like,"siiiiiiigh OK, THE best he'd ever had" -- I cracked up laughing. She was being such a dick.

4 minutes ago, SueB said:

- Mary brainwash story. I actually LIKE this plot twist.  It SUCKS for Mary, but I'm not feeling the Mary love these days.  I also liked that she tried to kill herself (oh, that sounds TERRIBLE... I am NOT a fan of suicide! I'm just appreciating that she's trying to take out a threat... FICTION ONLY... suicide is BAD).  Put differently, Mary understands what a threat she is and she'd rather die than be that horrible person.  I appreciate that.  

I'm pretty much fine with Mary because apparently I am really bad at holding a grudge -- except that she's dumb as a box of hair, and that can be aggravating.

Demanding answers from Toni, and then realize after the fact that ooooooh yeah, she's got this GIANT fresh wound on her hand, so her "dream" must have been real...

Appealing to Ketch's mercy of all things when trying to get him to help her. I actually thought she had some sort of game at first, but then it turned out...no, she was just really sad.

[auntvi]

2 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

the entire time Lady What'sHerFace was talking to the Winchesters in the back seat of the Impala I kept saying "Sam, shoot her in the leg. Sam, just shoot her in the leg."

Yes!! I was yelling something like "just shoot her!!"

[SueB]

I agree about the thinness of the "leave them in the bunker" part of the plot.  My only headcannon is that actually shooting them might be a trigger for Mary.  Leaving them to die would be less traumatic.  I know.. total fanwank... but that's about the only plausible explanation. 

[bmoore4026]

Well, Crowley is now a ferret, Winchesters are stuck with Evil British Men of Letters Lady and will probably have to kill their mommy now, and Lucifer is back with a vengeance.

I doubt they'll be back to the American Men of Letters HQ once they breakout, but who knows.

[Lemuria]

You know, I wonder if Crowley "reversed the polarity" so Lucifer could get free, because he (Crowley, that is) hasn't been able to find Kelly and Sproutifer and he thinks that Lucifer can.  He may have some way to reinstate the binding.

(Though I hate that demons and witches can now bind angels and archangels.  Not anything they would have been able to do to in season 4, IMO)

[Wynne88]

Quote

Appealing to Ketch's mercy of all things when trying to get him to help her. I actually thought she had some sort of game at first, but then it turned out...no, she was just really sad.

I think originally she did it to get close enough to swipe his gun.  After he took it away from her, she didn't have anything else she really could do but appeal to him.