S05.E10: Darkroom

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The only real tension for me right now, and it's not the good kind, is that poor woman Stan and Aderholt are using.  I care more about her than just about anyone else on screen right now.  So, kudos for that one. 

 

It's weird, though, that I realized watching her scenes last night that it seems like she just got introduced. Like, that this scene should be happening around episode four or five instead of at the end. I guess it's the same thing with Stan's girlfriend. If Philip's wrong to think she's from the Centre that's fine, but it doesn't seem like her relationship with Stan in itself is at the end of the season either, if that makes sense.

Like, think of last season where we had Young-Hee and William. Seems like their relationships were at the same point as Sophia's or Renee's much earlier on. Likewise Kimmy etc.

[meira.hand]

16 hours ago, SeanC said:

The wedding ceremony was lovely (though on some level, since Paige knows about all this, I wonder why they didn't bring her).

She know they are spies, I don't think they told her that they never married, like they never got into details about how they were recruited or paired. They must realize that with her religious beliefs and being their daughter, it may shock her a bit too much and there is no reason for her to know. She probably assumes they were a couple to begin with.

[Umbelina]

Thank God for small mercies.

At least we didn't have to watch the actress playing Paige try to react to the news that she and her brother are illegitimate. 

[Eulipian 5k]

19 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

This entire season, as I said in an early episode post and seems more true now than ever, is like endless foreplay.  Enough!  I'm getting bored and sore now, I want a damn orgasm!  Or a few of them. 

Didn't you hear, Tai Chi Ben will now be teaching Elizabeth the Joys of Tantric Sex!

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

At least we didn't have to watch the actress playing Paige try to react to the news that she and her brother are illegitimate. 

Ever since somebody pointed out an alternate reading of the conversation Paige has with her parents after meeting Gabriel I find myself always looking for ways she could have played a scene differently to add some variety. Like the scene with Pastor Tim, since Paige was presumably trying to bait him, could have been done with something different than the usual sighs and hesitant "I'm puzzling out what I'm going to say while I'm saying it" reading.

[NorthstarATL]

Maybe it's just me, but I thought Paige deliberately photographed pages that would "get to" her parents in a very passive aggressive way. It might also be the actress not bringing nuance to anything, which makes me work harder trying to figure out what she's attempting to get across. Or maybe she's getting neighbor boy, Henry, and Pastor Tim safely out of the way before she brings down P&E for lying to her.

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, NorthstarATL said:

 

Maybe it's just me, but I thought Paige deliberately photographed pages that would "get to" her parents in a very passive aggressive way.

 

I thought she was definitely photographing them so they could see them. She probably couldn't say whether it was strictly to "get at them" or to just share what she read in hopes they could give her some reassurance or whatever. I don't think she's getting these other people out of the way before bringing them down--those who don't need to be gotten out of the way don't need it, and those who will be affected by it will still be affected whether or not they're at boarding school. 

I was disappointed that she didn't seem to put across any sense of being impressed or surprised at watching them pull that darkroom out of thin air. 

[teddysmom]

 I feel like I want to go to boarding school with Henry, just to get the hell away from these people. 

Quote

 me, but I thought Paige deliberately photographed pages that would "get to" her parents in a very passive aggressive way. 

Yes now that you mention it, unless it was just to show them that he's not as cool with things as they think.  I'm over Paige. I don't know if it's the actress, or what she's being given to do, but she has never really done anything for me. 

[MisterBluxom]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

That's another of the  many problems I had with this episode.  How is letting Tim get far away from Paige and the Jennings careful grooming and observation of him in any way, in any universe, safe for them?  Ship him off to some other country and he's much more likely to lose that Paige connection he has, and simply say "Holy shit!  This is nuts!  I've got to get to the embassy and turn those sons'a'bitches in!" 

It is simply not logical.  Kill him or keep him close.

Exactly.  I have no problem with the acting on this show other than the woefully inadequate Paige.  I love long slow scenes that breathe.  However, this season?  They are breathing so much they are using up all the oxygen in the room.  Enough already!  Do something!~

Dangling plot points everywhere.  Lies everywhere, but not the good kind that smart people would actually be looking into, just lies, lies, lies and any one of them can pan out of fizzle, and our fearless leaders sleepwalk through it all.  Red herrings and partially told boring stories everywhere, nothing resolved. 

Sorry, the wedding didn't do much for me, other than being somewhat interesting to watch a different ceremony.  It was fucking endless.  I get why they used the priest and a religious ceremony, it was the only way to use their real names and he was oh-so-handy being left with no handler and contacting Philip.  Yawn.

The pace of the show has been off all season, just whack compared to other seasons.  Nothing is resolved ever, and oh yay!  More wheat!  I mean, I agree, probably Claudia is lying her ass off to them about the real reason for their need to maintain contact with those marks, but at this point?  SO?  Do I care?  No, not really.

DO SOMETHING!

Seriously!  Endless chanting wedding.  Endless silent dinner.  The PTV recap nailed this episode for me this week.  The damn pot has been cooking long enough, either serve the food inside, or toss it out because it's getting moldy now.

The only real tension for me right now, and it's not the good kind, is that poor woman Stan and Aderholt are using.  I care more about her than just about anyone else on screen right now.  So, kudos for that one. 

I actually still like Oleg's story in Russia as well, though not the ridiculously time wasting dinner scene. 

I did care about Stan's girlfriend, but at this point I'm just getting pissed off with that.  How many episodes now? 

Whatever happened to Misha?

This entire season, as I said in an early episode post and seems more true now than ever, is like endless foreplay.  Enough!  I'm getting bored and sore now, I want a damn orgasm!  Or a few of them.  Weeks of foreplay alone may sound fun, but honestly it's more annoying and frustrating than "fun."

This show used to have an amazing balance, and even better pacing.  Long slow detailed nuanced scenes, but they were also relieved by action, by tension, by stakes and consequences and by danger and unexpected side effects.  They've lost all of that and substituted suspicion, and endlessly cooking pots that may or may not ever be served.  Weeks of Misha escaping and nothing.  Weeks of Stan's girlfriend's suspicion and nothing.  Etc.  And now?  The fucking WHEAT is back!  arrrghhh

Anyone would get that kid out of that school.  It's an incredibly easy solution.  Another frustration.  Another way to drag everything out, and frankly, way too convenient for this show.   I enjoy the homesick part of that family's story, and frankly, I even enjoy the family, the conflicted and guilty mother, the once so hopeful dad. 

It's just not working for me somehow.  All the pieces are there, the acting is wonderful, but it's like putting great ingredients in that ever cooking pot but they just don't come together to make anything you actually want to eat.  Tasty lobster, with kiwi, Cheerios, a loaded burrito, Ben and Jerry's Cherry Garcia, eggs Benedict, and a dash of sriracha with sprinkles on top.  Simmering away for weeks.

I love this show, I looked forward to this show for most of a year.  I'll stick with this show until the end.

This season though?  Blows.

 

I definitely feel compassion for you. I understand why you are unhappy and I must admit I am unhappy too. You have a good spirit for sticking with it and I ain't kidding!

Edited May 10, 2017 by MissBluxom

[Helena Dax]

I saw the Paige-Pastor Tim stuff in a different light. When she told her parents about the things she had read in his diary, she quoted something like "all those lies are destroying her" and Elizabeth totally misundertood what it meant. I mean, Paige and Pastor Tim were talking about the lies she has to say now and Elizabeth thought it was about the lies she and Philip had told Paige. Paige looked so frustrated... So I think those pictures were also a way to force them to acknowledge the truth. 

While I think Paige's situation can't be compared to sexual abuse at all, I don't think it can be compared to having a CIA parent either. It would be, if she were Russian, but she isn't. And how can I blame Pastor Tim for thinking she's screwed when last week I was thinking she could end up commiting suicide?

But even if she's having a hard time, she doesn't want to be the Paige Pastor Tim was describing in his diary. She doesn't want to believe that her parents have ruined her life, just like Philip must pretend he still believes in the Cause. That's why she decides to send him away. Well, one of the reasons.

Weddings aren't usually my thing, but I loved this one. 

Edited May 10, 2017 by Helena Dax

[IndianPaintbrush]

5 hours ago, attica said:

Although I thought the wedding came out of left field plot-wise, I still thought it was beautifully acted. So much emotion filling both their faces. But really: that scene could have been dropped into any episode, any season. 

There's an article in the AV Club about how the showrunners knew from the very beginning there would be a wedding at some point, they just needed the right time to drop it in. I think there was a very strategic reason why it happened in this episode, and it has to do with Philip's increasing disillusionment with the Centre.  Elizabeth's commitment to their family will be tested.

[fivestone]

On 10.5.2017 at 6:40 AM, PinkRibbons said:

Incidentally I suspect the Russian Rings are rose gold, and that might make them stand out a bit (not to mention they wear them on the right hand as opposed to the left. I thought for years that was a Jewish thing because I'm not all that observant, but actually turns out it's a Russian thing). Rose gold has become very popular in America in the past few years but I don't remember seeing much of it in my childhood unless it came directly from Russia, like my parents' wedding rings and some bits of gold jewelry my family took out with them.  My grandmother made a point of buying yellow gold jewelry once she got here because she was so sick of rose gold.

Wearing rings on the right hand is basically a continental European thing. It's what we do here. The wedding rings from my husband and I are also rose gold, but only because they're the rings from my husband's grandparents, so rose gold was a hit back in the day in European villages, I guess.

 

On 10.5.2017 at 8:25 PM, DoubleUTeeEff said:

I liked that we got to see a light shone on Pastor Tim's dark thoughts in the "Darkroom." Elizabeth was certainly correct that we all hold part of ourselves back. For good reason, too. I don't think finding out your parents are Russian spies is anywhere near sexual abuse. What about kids whose parents are in the FBI or CIA, like Kimmy?  Obviously, that is not a crime but the parallels are there.  Their parents may keep it a secret to protect their kids and to protect their "mission." That also betrays their trust but for the same valid reasons. Would Pastor Tim really write all the same things about Kimmy and her situation? It makes me wonder how much he understands about Elizabeth and Philip. Maybe he totally gets it and is rightfully scared to turn them in. Or maybe he doesn't really get it and is just "holier-than-thou."

I agree. Maybe it's because Paige's parents are still so involved and try to be there for her and try to see to it that her needs are cared for. But I don't think it what she is being exposed to rises to the same level of psychic wounding as with sexual abuse. Yeah, OK, maybe there's a parallel with the keeping of secrets (like when my mother told me as a kid that "what happens in this house stays in this house"). My family was super screwed up and it was a really bad situation. My mother literally married a convicted rapist when I was a kid and just kind of hoped for the best. I really wish my stepfather had just been a Russian spy instead.

OK, so my situation was kind of extreme, I guess. But isn't there is a certain level of that in every family, as in not telling all family business to outsiders? No one needs to know that dad likes wearing women's underwear, that your parents hardly ever have sex, or that mom is super passive-aggressive in arguments, right? Anyway, I can't help but think that Paige should be grateful she has people taking care of her who provide for her and love her and just do what she needs to do to help protect the family.

I know she has worried about her parents in the past when they go on missions. I can imagine that children of law enforcement officers, military infantry, etc. have similar fears. I'm not saying it's the easiest situation for a 15- or 16-year-old to cope with, especially one as sensitive as her, but if she toughens up, she'll be OK.

Edited May 12, 2017 by fivestone

[MisterBluxom]

2 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Didn't you hear, Tai Chi Ben will now be teaching Elizabeth the Joys of Tantric Sex!

Tantric sex. I have heard a lot about that. But I'd really like to hear from someone in this forum who could tell us if it's real or just a hoax.

 

2 hours ago, teddysmom said:

 I feel like I want to go to boarding school with Henry, just to get the hell away from these people. 

Yes now that you mention it, unless it was just to show them that he's not as cool with things as they think.  I'm over Paige. I don't know if it's the actress, or what she's being given to do, but she has never really done anything for me. 

Oh, you are not alone. Many people have expressed this same opinion. I just don't understand why the showrunners have let this situation continue to slide for so long. What is wrong with them?

[Mrs Shibbles]

5 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I've always found it a little odd that Pastor Tim has so much alone time with Paige.  I can see it while at his house for babysitting, but, packing food boxes.  No one else to help? Just odd.  I guess it's needed to move the story along. 

The look he gave her was creepy.

[Erin9]

1 hour ago, IndianPaintbrush said:

There's an article in the AV Club about how the showrunners knew from the very beginning there would be a wedding at some point, they just needed the right time to drop it in. I think there was a very strategic reason why it happened in this episode, and it has to do with Philip's increasing disillusionment with the Centre.  Elizabeth's commitment to their family will be tested.

I agree that's part of it. Things are going to get more complicated. 

I think now is fitting for other reasons. S2 was them really committing to the relationship for the first time, not really the right time for a marriage ceremony imo. S3 had so much Paige angst and fighting over her. Very much the wrong time. S4 had Martha with all the insecurity and stress her situation caused- plus, the beginning of burnout.

Now, having been through all that, at a time when they're both so tired of fake relationships and burning out in general, the timing does seem right. This season has shown them to be the closest they've ever been. The commitment means more because we've seen all the obstacles they've been through just to get to this point. 

I don't think this is something they'll take lightly. It obviously meant a lot to both of them. They did something for themselves- for their real selves right down to the rings in the ceremony. Not for the centre or for the benefit of their kids. That really doesn't happen that often on this show. It was only about them. 

Come to think of it, a poster once said they thought the ussr would lose Elizabeth if she actually told Philip she loved him. I thought that was possible. Well- I think they may have lost her now. Whether she knows it or not. Marrying Philip in the most real way possible is a big deal. They married as themselves. It's the most real thing in their lives beyond their kids. In marrying Philip she did put him before the centre. She truly committed to someone else. 

[SunnyBeBe]

I suppose that if Pastor Tim moves away, The Center will send some people to check on his movements, contacts, monitor his calls and mail, etc.  Just to make sure that he doesn't get any loose lips.  I wonder if he and Paige would stay in contact.  I've always had a vision that he and his wife might meet with an unfortunate accident while on a mission.  It almost happened with him.  If this happens, I hope the baby is not with them.

I did think that Paige was quite reasonable when she said that Pastor Tim was not good for her family.  

[MisterBluxom]

24 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I suppose that if Pastor Tim moves away, The Center will send some people to check on his movements, contacts, monitor his calls and mail, etc.  Just to make sure that he doesn't get any loose lips.  I wonder if he and Paige would stay in contact.  I've always had a vision that he and his wife might meet with an unfortunate accident while on a mission.  It almost happened with him.  If this happens, I hope the baby is not with them.

I did think that Paige was quite reasonable when she said that Pastor Tim was not good for her family.  

Maybe this plot line finally answers the question: What do the people who take phoney phone calls and give out phoney messages do when they are just sitting around and waiting for their phones to ring?

What do they do? They invent phoney lives for people like Pastor Tim and his family who have been murdered the second they moved out of their city and then, every week or month (as required), they send and receive phone messages and/or letters so that people like Paige think the murder victims are still alive and living happy lives - happily ever after.

Some of these message takers may even learn how to be ventriloquists so that they can imitate various voices and leave messages for people like Paige who have been duped.  In that way, Paige can be led to believe the Pastor is alive and well in some happy South American village together with his wife and kids and they are all happily mentoring a flock of Native South American Indians in the ways of their Lord and Savior - Jesus Christ - and they are all living happily ever after - just like Jack and his Beanstalk.  They all have plenty of room to run around and laugh and play in their happy, happy village.  But, the truth is that they were whacked the second that they left town on their way to their pretend life on the farm.

The same kind of fate awaits Pasha's mother. The second that she and Pasha leave the USA to return to Russia (where they believe no harm will come to them), they will both be whacked and buried in some "extra deep" grave and forever more a few of the Centre's expert ventriloquists will send messages that sound remarkably like them to people who have been left back home. In that way, people like Tuan (maybe) and some of the mother's students will always believe that something really nice happened to them thanks to the benevolent government of the People's Republic of the Soviet Union. What a bunch of swells! What a wunnerful place to raise a family and then to retire in luxury (or at least the Russian version of luxury).

J/K (the preceding post has been one of my weaker attempts to bring some humor to this board).  I'm sorry that I'm just not very good at it. But remember the scene in this week's episode where Tatiana promised Pasha's mom that nothing bad would ever happen to her family if she returned to Russia (because the Russian government is happy to welcome defectors back)? Well, that just got me really angry and I just needed to write some kind of response.

Edited May 10, 2017 by MissBluxom

[dubbel zout]

The Tims can't be killed because their lawyer has a tape or something that says Philip and Elizabeth are Russian spies, and he's to give it to the FBI if anything happens to them. I think a new job is what's going to happen. Make it faith-based, progressive, and pitch it to Tim's ego, and the Tims are on another continent.

[SunnyBeBe]

I never thought about someone learning to fake Pastor Tim's voice.  That's pretty clever.  It might work.  Then over the years, they lose contact........I'm not sure if we will get to see that or not.  I do consider him a liability though.  I think he makes me more nervous than he does P & E.

[MisterBluxom]

4 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

The Tims can't be killed because their lawyer has a tape or something that says Philip and Elizabeth are Russian spies, and he's to give it to the FBI if anything happens to them. I think a new job is what's going to happen. Make it faith-based, progressive, and pitch it to Tim's ego, and the Tims are on another continent.

You may be right. But those spies sure are awfully darn clever. They manage to fool some of the brightest people in the world and they get away with it. So ... maybe they can get away with it if they have a good backup story? Like maybe they were kidnapped by the CIA and it is the CIA who is managing this entire deception?  At the very least, that could throw some significant shade on the entire operation - such that people just might believe this "fake news"?  OMG! What if it was actually the KGB that invented the concept of "fake news"? What a kick in the head that would be. Don't you think?

Edited May 10, 2017 by MissBluxom

[whiporee]

That got me wondering -- how much actual evidence would anyone have on P&E? If Pastor Tim went to the feds (or if he died under non-suspicious circumstances in Ecuador and his lawyer sent a letter), would there be enough to arrest them? 

They have the one drawing of the woman who sort of looks like Elizabeth. Would the word of a pastor -- which is based on the complaints of a teenager -- be enough to get a search warrant? How good or P&E's cover. They've been in the US for nearly 20 years, so they've got employment histories, they've paid their taxes, all that. Would his statements be enough for the FBI to get a warrant? 

[JudyinDallas]

19 hours ago, benteen said:

The funny thing is according to Wikipedia, EST disbanded in 1984.

But it was rebranded as "the Forum" and some other name that I can't recall.  It was still going strong in the 80s and 90s and I attended some sessions in the D.C. Area in 1989.  

[Ellaria]

17 minutes ago, whiporee said:

That got me wondering -- how much actual evidence would anyone have on P&E? If Pastor Tim went to the feds (or if he died under non-suspicious circumstances in Ecuador and his lawyer sent a letter), would there be enough to arrest them? 

They have the one drawing of the woman who sort of looks like Elizabeth. Would the word of a pastor -- which is based on the complaints of a teenager -- be enough to get a search warrant? How good or P&E's cover. They've been in the US for nearly 20 years, so they've got employment histories, they've paid their taxes, all that. Would his statements be enough for the FBI to get a warrant? 

That's actually a very good question. The confession of an emotional teenager is not enough for the feds to act on. Didn't Phillip threaten Pastor Tim? (Memory is a little hazy on this point). Unless that meeting was taped - and we have no reason to think that it was - PT has nothing to back up his claim.

Here is a related question: in the "Dinner for Seven" episode, Stan shows up when the Tims are having dinner with P&E, Paige and Henry. Does Stan reveal what he does for a living? (Normally, I wouldn't think that an FBI agent would offer up this info to people that he had just met but Stan isn't too bright.) If he did then this could provide the Tims with easy access to the FBI.

[spaceghostess]

Re: the Groovyhairs' lawyer sending a letter, tape, or anything else to blow P&E's cover, I've never taken that particularly seriously. It'd be child's play for Team Jennings to crack the law office safe (or simply knock off the lawyer). Case closed, so to speak.

Per usual, I spent much of the episode wanting to throttle P&E for their hideous manipulation of Paige, only to be utterly transfixed by their intense connection as exemplified by the wedding. This show has a way of making me feel like the priggiest prig who ever prigged, though. I'm SO judgy when it comes to the Jenningses in relation to their kids, but I can't help it.  I actually agreed with many of the sentiments Pastor Groovyhair expressed in his diary, although I also thought the writing choice to have PG compare what was being done to Paige to sexual abuse was questionable and gratuitous. But putting aside whether I believe one thing is an apt comparison to another, I wholeheartedly believe that the damage being done to Paige is profound. The fact that her parents could have that bullshit conversation with her (lying about the wheat situation and continuing to allow her to view them as heroes; repeatedly telling her that Pastor Groovyhair doesn't "know" her) and then walk out of the room and congratulate each other on a job well done is more nauseating to me than most other things I've seen on this show. Nice how all the time in EST (and sweet lord save me from yet another EST scene) has helped Philip realize what his marriage needs. Too bad it hasn't done shit for his parenting, except enable him to serve up platitudes to Paige about how she isn't doomed to be stuck in a life script. Project much, Philip? I hope she takes your words to heart and disappears to start a new life far from the people who created her (and Henry) with the sole purpose of furthering an agenda.

But still, that ceremony! Very moving, especially the fact that the whole thing was in their mother language, which they never get to hear or speak.

See?? That right there is what this show does to me.

P.S. Thanks/no thanks to more scenes around the Oleg Family dinner table. Although I thought the food looked really good.

[Umbelina]

24 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

That's actually a very good question. The confession of an emotional teenager is not enough for the feds to act on. Didn't Phillip threaten Pastor Tim? (Memory is a little hazy on this point). Unless that meeting was taped - and we have no reason to think that it was - PT has nothing to back up his claim.

Here is a related question: in the "Dinner for Seven" episode, Stan shows up when the Tims are having dinner with P&E, Paige and Henry. Does Stan reveal what he does for a living? (Normally, I wouldn't think that an FBI agent would offer up this info to people that he had just met but Stan isn't too bright.) If he did then this could provide the Tims with easy access to the FBI.

Henry blurted it out.

The FBI might not have enough to get a search warrant or listening equipment, but they don't need that to follow and watch Philip and Elizabeth like hawks, which would pretty quickly reveal they are not on the up and up.

Hell, Stan could sweat Paige easily, he's a trained investigator and she wouldn't know what hit her.  He is their neighbor who stops in all the time anyway, pretty easy cover and excuse for a guy is who isn't that particular about following the rules anyway.

That said, I don't think they'd need that much to completely legally open an investigation.  That one sketch of Philip looks a lot like him, by the apartment super.  The real FBI knew for a while, but followed the illegals to see what else they could learn or expose.

Actually, the ONLY thing they need to do to expose them completely, and which would need no judicial approval is to check their ID's against death certificates.  Basically the same way they exposed William.

Also, a tip from the family minister would be plenty.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Umbelina

[jrlr]

8 hours ago, TimWil said:

Tweet by François Picard:

Stan Beeman for FBI Director.

Thank you for my first laugh of the day!

[Ellaria]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Henry blurted it out.

The FBI might not have enough to get a search warrant or listening equipment, but they don't need that to follow and watch Philip and Elizabeth like hawks, which would pretty quickly reveal they are not on the up and up.

Hell, Stan could sweat Paige easily, he's a trained investigator and she wouldn't know what hit her.  He is their neighbor who stops in all the time anyway, pretty easy cover and excuse for a guy is who isn't that particular about following the rules anyway.

That said, I don't think they'd need that much to completely legally open an investigation.  That one sketch of Philip looks a lot like him, by the apartment super.  The real FBI knew for a while, but followed the illegals to see what else they could learn or expose.

Actually, the ONLY thing they need to do to expose them completely, and which would need no judicial approval is to check their ID's against death certificates.  Basically the same way they exposed William.

Thanks. So the Tims are aware that the Jennings' neighbor/friend is an FBI agent. 

I agree that the sketch of "Clark" is very close to Phillip's real look. Sooner or later, it has to come back around, right?

[jrlr]

5 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

You know, we've seen other shows end that never just answer the central question. I think we might just have to prepare ourselves for something similar here. It may be possible this show will end and we just won't ever find out if they get caught. In a way, that might be a reasonable ending since many spies working in another country just never do get caught. They just kind of disappear from sight and no one knows what happened to them. Given that is true, then P & E just might disappear into the woodwork. I bet many people will feel outraged if that should happen. But I think we just might have to prepare ourselves for that eventuality.

I'd be fine with it.  I actually laughed when the screen went black at the end of The Sopranos leaving us to wonder if Tony was going to be killed, but I know a lot of people were really pissed off at the unresolved ending.  Miss Bluxom, if you aren't already a professional fiction writer, you should be - your posts are so freaking entertaining!  And I really love your idea from way above that it might be Oleg's mother who is getting revenge on the state.  

[kokapetl]

1 hour ago, MissBluxom said:

Maybe this plot line finally answers the question: What do the people who take phoney phone calls and give out phoney messages do when they are just sitting around and waiting for their phones to ring?

What do they do? They invent phoney lives for people like Pastor Tim and his family who have been murdered the second they moved out of their city and then, every week or month (as required), they send and receive phone messages and/or letters so that people like Paige think the murder victims are still alive and living happy lives - happily ever after.

Some of these message takers may even learn how to be ventriloquists so that they can imitate various voices and leave messages for people like Paige who have been duped.  In that way, Paige can be led to believe the Pastor is alive and well in some happy South American village together with his wife and kids and they are all happily mentoring a flock of Native South American Indians in the ways of their Lord and Savior - Jesus Christ - and they are all living happily ever after - just like Jack and his Beanstalk.  They all have plenty of room to run around and laugh and play in their happy, happy village.  But, the truth is that they were whacked the second that they left town on their way to their pretend life on the farm.

The same kind of fate awaits Pasha's mother. The second that she and Pasha leave the USA to return to Russia (where they believe no harm will come to them), they will both be whacked and buried in some "extra deep" grave and forever more a few of the Centre's expert ventriloquists will send messages that sound remarkably like them to people who have been left back home. In that way, people like Tuan (maybe) and some of the mother's students will always believe that something really nice happened to them thanks to the benevolent government of the People's Republic of the Soviet Union. What a bunch of swells! What a wunnerful place to raise a family and then to retire in luxury (or at least the Russian version of luxury).

J/K (the preceding post has been one of my weaker attempts to bring some humor to this board).  I'm sorry that I'm just not very good at it. But remember the scene in this week's episode where Tatiana promised Pasha's mom that nothing bad would ever happen to her family if she returned to Russia (because the Russian government is happy to welcome defectors back)? Well, that just got me really angry and I just needed to write some kind of response.

The lady who replaced the guy Larrick killed has been seen watching TV. 

[jrlr]

48 minutes ago, JudyinDallas said:

But it was rebranded as "the Forum" and some other name that I can't recall.  It was still going strong in the 80s and 90s and I attended some sessions in the D.C. Area in 1989.  

I think it was Lifespring or Wellspring or some other non-word word.  At least in L.A. it was, because one of my friends tried to get me to go.  And failed.

[J-Man]

Quote

Did you catch when Stan's girlfriend said that she wasn't available the following week, because she had to go home? What home? I thought she lived locally?  I wonder if she will be followed to this so called home.

This was addressed a bit upthread, but just to chime in as someone who used to live in the DC area-- it often seems like nearly everyone there is from somewhere else, and it's common for people to refer to the place they came from as "home," especially if they have plans to eventually return there.

The recapper commented on the length of the wedding ceremony and that fact that it transpired "in real time." I've only been to one Russian Orthodox wedding, and it lasted OVER AN HOUR and there was no sitting allowed the entire time (in fact, there were not even any seats in the church.)

I've been to many GREEK Orthodox weddings, and while the ceremonies are similar, attendees are permitted to sit during portions of the service.

[Eulipian 5k]

Tatiana and the Centre absolutely won't harm Pasha's mom. They need her in Russia to maintain the affair with the CIA station chief to be who is her student. Otherwise they would have had  P & E bag them and ship them off like Nina's   Scientist friend.

[Umbelina]

6 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Tatiana and the Centre absolutely won't harm Pasha's mom. They need her in Russia to maintain the affair with the CIA station chief to be who is her student. Otherwise they would have had  P & E bag them and ship them off like Nina's   Scientist friend.

They won't harm her if she becomes a spy for them, continues to cheat on her husband, and risks her life continuing to try and run a CIA deputy chief.

Now, her kid?  Her husband?  Hey, threatening them is no problem if it keeps her doing what they want her to do.

[Anela]

Aww!!! Count me in with those who loved the wedding. I also didn't think a lot of acting was going on, but that was so sweet. 

This episode actually pulled me back in, after a few weeks of not rushing to watch it, as soon as I was awake enough (the following day). 

I feel awful for Pasha, and will be surprised if his mother doesn't realize that it wasn't a coincidence that she was approached. The woman who spoke to her - I've forgotten her name - was lying to her, right? Would they really just take them back, no consequences?

Paige - she should have known not to take pictures of what he wrote about her, and her parents. oops. I do wish I had the option of shipping someone off to another country, if they pissed me off, though. I know she thinks she's doing it for the right reasons, that it would be good for him, but it has been stressing her out, and she has changed, snooping and such. He was right in that it's affected her badly. Philip has been worried about her, too. 

I hope they aren't leading up to Oleg getting a bullet. 

20 hours ago, NitneLiun said:

Yeah, you could tell Paige completely bought in when she was describing the heroic actions of her parents in stopping the evil USA from causing a famine in the Soviet Union and lamenting that know one knows about it.

Lenin hit the nail on the head when he described Western liberals as "useful idiots". He must have had Paige in mind.

Where do you get that from? She's a teenager. Also: I thought she was more of a Christian, what with her involvement with Pastor Tim.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Anela

[Eulipian 5k]

Staying on topic, Sting also hopes the Russians love their children too. Google him re Tantric Sex to clarify an earlier post. See what I did there?

[Anela]

54 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

 

Edited May 11, 2017 by Anela

[Umbelina]

She goes back to the USSR?  The KGB owns her.   She will have to do whatever they say when they say  for the rest of her life.  Her son and husband will be handy hostages to that situation.

One thing I will say for the show this season.  I think we are seeing more "real spy" stuff than before.  Boring, drudgery, sad, ruined lives, everyone a casualty of knowing spies, from Stan to Oleg, to the destructive Philip and Elizabeth, ruining lives, one at a time, or three at a time on good days.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Umbelina

[Anela]

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

She goes back to the USSR?  The KGB owns her.   She will have to do whatever they say when they say it for the rest of her life.  Her son and husband will be handy hostages to that situation.

One thing I will say for the show this season.  I think we are seeing more "real spy" stuff than before.  Boring, drudgery, sad, ruined lives, everyone a casualty of knowing spies, from Stan to Oleg, to the destructive Philip and Elizabeth, ruining lives, one at a time, or three at a time on good days.

Yep.

And that's what I thought, re: that woman's family. That Pasha won't be safe. I wonder if she will do the opposite of what they expect, and report the fact that she was approached by someone representing Russia. Although that puts her family in danger, too - they've already bullied her son, in an effort to manipulate his parents. 

Edited May 11, 2017 by Anela

[MisterBluxom]

2 hours ago, jrlr said:

I'd be fine with it.  I actually laughed when the screen went black at the end of The Sopranos leaving us to wonder if Tony was going to be killed, but I know a lot of people were really pissed off at the unresolved ending.  Miss Bluxom, if you aren't already a professional fiction writer, you should be - your posts are so freaking entertaining!  And I really love your idea from way above that it might be Oleg's mother who is getting revenge on the state.  

 

That is very kind of you and I really appreciate your saying so.  Unfortunately, there are an awful lot of people who would disagree with you.  But I better not go into that here. Heh. Heh.

48 minutes ago, Anela said:

I hope they aren't leading up to Oleg getting a bullet.

I hope that is true as well and I'd be quite shocked if Oleg ever got a bullet. Why?

Because the showrunners would then be seen as very "unoriginal". They have already shocked us with Nina getting a bullet. Repeating that sequence would take a very large part of the bloom off the rose. Sorry for such a terrible cliche. I just mean it would be repetitive and I think the writers and showrunners are much better than that and would want to come up with something more original.

But, what do you think about that?

[Eulipian 5k]

This whole season has been showing what people look like after the KGB meat grinder has had hold of them; William's dead body is hacked up, Martha, Gabriel, even Claudia, Oleg's family, and Paige. No wonder the season has a depressing impact on the audience.

[Anela]

4 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

 

That is very kind of you and I really appreciate your saying so.  Unfortunately, there are an awful lot of people who would disagree with you.  But I better not go into that here. Heh. Heh.

I hope that is true as well and I'd be quite shocked if Oleg ever got a bullet. Why?

Because the showrunners would then be seen as very "unoriginal". They have already shocked us with Nina getting a bullet. Repeating that sequence would take a very large part of the bloom off the rose. Sorry for such a terrible cliche. I just mean it would be repetitive and I think the writers and showrunners are much better than that and would want to come up with something more original.

But, what do you think about that?

It would be, but he worked with the Americans, briefly. Why do you think they're focusing so much on him now? Unless those of you are right, and his parents are being investigated. 

[Anela]

I think this is the most I've talked about the show, all season. It definitely pulled me back in with this episode. 

[sistermagpie]

40 minutes ago, Anela said:

I know she thinks she's doing it for the right reasons, that it would be good for him, but it has been stressing her out, and she has changed, snooping and such. He was right in that it's affected her badly. Philip has been worried about her, too. 

Paige was a giant snoop from the start of the show, to be fair. It was a different kind of snooping than she's doing with Pastor Tim, but snooping was what got her into this.

2 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

That's actually a very good question. The confession of an emotional teenager is not enough for the feds to act on. Didn't Phillip threaten Pastor Tim? (Memory is a little hazy on this point). Unless that meeting was taped - and we have no reason to think that it was - PT has nothing to back up his claim.

He doesn't need anything to back up his claim. If PT told somebody at the FBI he knew of these two Illegals the whole bureau would be on them within minutes, checking their social security numbers etc. Remember William? Oleg just said he heard they had someone at that company and they were on him. No warrant needed.

2 hours ago, spaceghostess said:

Too bad it hasn't done shit for his parenting, except enable him to serve up platitudes to Paige about how she isn't doomed to be stuck in a life script.

Pastor Tim was giving her platitudes too, only his were from the Bible.

I mean, the situation is that her parents are secretly Russian spies. That was true over a year ago when she learned about it and it's true now. There's no right thing to say to her about it, it's just the circumstances of her life that she has to live with. Other characters on the show have lived with things even harsher compartmentalization or circumstances.

Her parents got her into the mess because they were...exactly like her. Teenagers who wanted to do the right thing and couldn't think through all the consequences. And they're still those people. The two people who got married in this ep in some ways were the teenagers they were the last time they went by those names. For Philip the idea that Paige doesn't have to follow anybody's script, be it the Centre's or Pastor Tim's broken toy version, is radical. In many ways she has way more advantages than her parents did at her age (the two of them being two of them, really) and her lying lessons still haven't reached the point of the kind of robbery of self Philip and Elizabeth willingly submitted to at around her age. They can't turn themselves into normal parents.

[Clanstarling]

12 hours ago, whiporee said:

On an over-reaching point, I think the runners have forgotten the central question of this show -- will these two wacky spies get caught? It's been a long time since we've had any real threat of that -- Groovyhair was the last real exposure threat P&E faced. We've had other sources of drama, but I think the farther the show gets from its central premise, the less urgency it has and therefore it becomes less compelling. The internal dynamics of P&E are interesting, but not compelling. What's compelling is these two people who are in a foreign land and trying to survive and undermine American influence, and how that all intersects with basic human decency and danger. We're just not seeing a lot of that this season, and it'd be nice to get back to it. 

I'm not sure that the showrunners think that is the central question of the show. My memory is vague, but my vague recollection is that they're interested in following these dedicated patriotic spies down the path to the dissolution of their country and their reactions to the causes of fall of the Soviet Union and what that meant to the work they did for so many years. I do agree the show could use a little more of that excitement and tension, but even though the operations this season have been less than exciting (though they've had some tension about being caught early in the wheat story), I personally find most of the story lines compelling to varying degree. Though I totally agree the wheat stuff is about as exciting as Cream of Wheat.

11 hours ago, stagmania said:

I thought it was more that this ceremony was kind of his only option if he wanted a real marriage with their real names-it's not like they could do that at City Hall. And I imagine something about the deeply Russian ceremony was touching for them, and helped them connect back to their roots.

I agree. He knew a guy who could do it, and he happened to be a Russian Orthodox priest. Given that P&E weren't ever supposed to even mention their actual names once they came to America, it's unlikely anyone from the Centre would help them have a civil ceremony.

7 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I was disappointed that she didn't seem to put across any sense of being impressed or surprised at watching them pull that darkroom out of thin air. 

Actually, in that scene I thought she showed a lot of interest in what they were doing, and some growing strength.

I've committed TV infidelity this week in order to watch this show. The mister is on night shifts, and if I didn't watch it, I'd never get caught up! Shhh...

Edited May 11, 2017 by Clanstarling

[JudyinDallas]

2 hours ago, jrlr said:

I think it was Lifespring or Wellspring or some other non-word word.  At least in L.A. it was, because one of my friends tried to get me to go.  And failed.

I remembered later - it was/is Landmark Education.  I did the Forum and one or two seminars but have friends that spent lots of money and time getting very well involved with it.  They really wanted to take over your life, kind of cult like.

[Anela]

I'd forgotten that Paige got into this by snooping. How did I forget that? Geez, she was always suspicious of her parents. She has been affected, though - although I don't agree with the pastor, that it's akin to sexual abuse. I need to re-watch, before I lose Amazon Prime next month. I thought she didn't know, until her parents approached her, because of The Centre. 

[sistermagpie]

12 minutes ago, Anela said:

I thought she didn't know, until her parents approached her, because of The Centre. 

More like she approached them. The Centre had told them to tell her, but they hadn't done it. They only did it because she ambushed them and laid out the evidence of her observations and conclusions and demanded to know what their secret was with Pastor Tim backing her up.

Btw, someone elsewhere pointed out that Elizabeth's outfit in the wedding scene is very similar (maybe the same jacket) that she wore in the pilot when they got together for the first time in the car.

Edited May 11, 2017 by sistermagpie

[Bretton]

Quote

"But clearly he's never been trustworthy entirely--he tells his wife things people tell him." -- SisterMagpie

 

Quote

"Tim's excuse for telling his wife was that he and his wife minister each other." -- Kokapetl

In my former Evangelical experience, plenty of pastoral couples (husband and wife) considered it normal (even expected) to share all with each other - including what was said to one or the other by a parishioner. In fact, this was considered part of honoring the oneness of marriage. The two are one -- including holding secrets, whosever they are.

Also, on a related note, once again in this episode, Tim's vague Biblical encouragements to Paige sounded off. The delivery; the context; what he said right afterwards, about "doing great in life..."; again, it just didn't come off sounding at all realistic. I realized tonight that part of the problem is not just the scripting, but the fact that the actor just doesn't even remotely believe what he's saying -- that is to say, he's just not really identifying with the character in those moments; and it really shows.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Bretton

[Bretton]

8 hours ago, NorthstarATL said:

Maybe it's just me, but I thought Paige deliberately photographed pages that would "get to" her parents in a very passive aggressive way.

Oh, I agree. And forcing them to see the written words, rather than just her account of them, was a way of saying, "See, I'm aware that another adult offers an 'alternative set of facts' about our little family situation here. I'm still considering various interpretations. I may be a kid, but there's more than one way to read all this."

Yes, I do think a small part of her, in a passive-agrgessive way, was doing all that.

And, yes, I know what I just did there.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Bretton

[Anela]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

More like she approached them. The Centre had told them to tell her, but they hadn't done it. They only did it because she ambushed them and laid out the evidence of her observations and conclusions and demanded to know what their secret was with Pastor Tim backing her up.

Btw, someone elsewhere pointed out that Elizabeth's outfit in the wedding scene is very similar (maybe the same jacket) that she wore in the pilot when they got together for the first time in the car.

Wouldn't she find out eventually, though? I wonder what they planned to do, once they were finished with their work. I'm not sure how they would have kept it from them forever. 

I did point out that I've forgotten things. 

Edited May 11, 2017 by Anela