S02.E10: With or Without You

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Quote

Axe deals with a family disturbance. Chuck gets vetted for advancement.

[PBSLover]

GOD I LOVE THIS SHOW!!!!!!  WHAT A GREAT EPISODE!!!!

Okay, I’m done.  Moving on.

[dwmarch]

Agreed, so much love for this show! The only thing that didn't work for me was Mary Louise Parker's faux-Texan accent but that's only because I've been a fan of hers for years and I know what she's supposed to sound like. Letting her use her natural voice would have worked better IMO.

So much packed into one episode that it's hard to know where to begin. How about Wags? Not much of him in this episode but he was brilliant.

Why do I feel like the theft of the dominatrix's laptop is going to end up being a spike-heeled boot in Chuck's ass that he will distinctly not enjoy?

Speaking of which, got to love marriage counseling via leather and lingerie. Maybe they should have tried that first. I got a chuckle out of Chuck taking Wendy to the juice place he's thinking about investing in. That French chef made me laugh too. "I am too busy cooking de food to cook de books!" Yeah, you are now...

I appreciate the symmetry with last season, where we had Axe trying to recruit Bryan, Chuck's top lieutenant. Now we have Bryan trying to recruit Taylor, Axe's top lieutenant. He should have known he was going to get told to pound his cookies up his ass but at least he tried.

I also loved the series of voicemails Axe left on Lara's phone, all the things he wants to say to her but couldn't, from the sappy "remember when we used to stay in bed all day because we were so in love?" to the "fuck you, bitch, you deserve this!" All the things he wants to say to her but can't. And she wonders why he needs Wendy so much.

[clb1016]

Am I the only one who's disappointed in the way Taylor's transformation has been written?  I understand that money is a corrupting influence but this hasn't been a gradual transformation; it's as if someone flipped a switch.

We're supposed to believe that a former Occupy Wall Streeter is now willing to participate in an enterprise that (unethically and perhaps illegally) screws over anyone and anything in its wake just to make a few more bucks that none of them will ever be able to spend, and then be all "Fuck you, Brian.  Ya got nothin' on me." 

Early in the season they were saying "I don't know if I can work in this environment" and a few episodes later they're practically drooling while stroking the leather seats on their private plane?  I swear, even Dollar Bill is written with more subtlety.

How about some introspection?  Does this person have any close friends or confidantes (perhaps from their Occupy days) to whom they could express some second thoughts or doubts?  Could they have had a moment when they at least thought of renting a slightly less expensive apartment and perhaps giving some money to a political cause or charity?  Nope, they seemingly turned on a dime.

I really like this show a lot and the cast--in even the smallest roles--is wonderful, but it's just good enough for me to wish it were better.  

[EtheltoTillie]

Who is the guy who stole the laptop?  Were we supposed to recognize him?

Anyway, I liked this episode better than the last couple.  It was more about the characters and less about impenetrable McGuffinlike business machinations.

Edited April 24, 2017 by GussieK

[hoodooznoodooz]

Who woulda thunk that Axe was George Costanza?

I totally agree that this sudden ethical change in Taylor is unrealistic.

Having said that, I really wanted them to continue renting the low-rent unit, so that they would soon be able to purchase a spectacular condo with the bonuses, etc. Renting luxury apartments is for suckers.  

[seasquared]

Could anyone explain to me what it was that Lara said right before she headed into the house at the end of the episode? Something about someone blowing up in a car bomb?????? And what was Axe talking about with the Lightning??????

And blowing $320k  of a $500k bonus (BEFORE taxes) on one year's rent for an apt. is completely outside of Taylor's transformation arc. I don't care how much they are drinking the Koolaid!!

[clb1016]

6 minutes ago, seasquared said:

Could anyone explain to me what it was that Lara said right before she headed into the house at the end of the episode? Something about someone blowing up in a car bomb?????? And what was Axe talking about with the Lightning??????

 

Referencing Godfather, Part 2.  Axe had referred in an earlier message to being struck like a lightning bolt when he first met Lara (as was said about Michael Corleone when he first saw Apollonia, who was later killed by a car bomb which had been set to kill Michael).

[ahpny]

Quote

I totally agree that this sudden ethical change in Taylor is unrealistic

Though he spilled his "troubles" to Wendy a bit in a prior episode, that was really 'I'm more upset with myself for being not that upset." Again, no real development about how or why the sudden embrace of the "darkness." But also, what exactly about signing that report signaled Taylor's walk on the wild side anyway? We've never seen Taylor asked to do anything illegal or even terribly immoral, that I know.

But it's the marriage-related drama that didn't really work for me in several ways. First, we learn that Wendy purposely torpedoed Axe and Lara's relationship as revenge for being disrespected by Lara. Smug though Lara was to Wendy, the Wendy we know is too controled and wise to take that bait. That she did wasn't in character for her. 

Second, the special snow-flake quality that Lara has, as commented by both Axe and Wendy, is not apparent to me.  Malin Akerman is certainly beautiful and a reasonably talented actress, but for me, there's nothing to warrant the singularity that others seem to think Lara is. As with "Karen Cartwright" on Smash, no matter how many times the script may say she's wonderful and unique, if she's not actually wonderful or unique, this sort of falls flat. And what's Lara's brother's beef with Axe? Does he think Axe secretly beats her or something? Lara's brother doesn't seem like the type overly concerned with insider trading or finacial ethics. He's certainly not bothered by living in a house that Axe paid for.

Third, who exactly is Axe now? His schizophrenic messages are supposed to show what, devotion mixed with bullying? Coming undone because he loves her so much? That, in his core, he resents her for missing out on screwing around for 15 years despite ample opportunities (with "some of her so-called friends" no less)? Why exactly is he so ruthless with everyone else, but boasts about being scrupulously honest with Lara? Indeed, being honest isn't something to be done to score points, but something to do because it's the right thing to do. Also, it's not credible that this is the first lie he's told her in 15 years. One thing that didn't bother me, however, is him erasing his own messages. Though it's surely an invasion of privacy to do peak into her phone, erasing his own messages seems more like "recalling" an email that was never opened.

[lampwick]

Deleting the voicemails is another betrayal - right after they just fought about honesty no less!  That should come back to bite him in the ass.  It's totally different than recalling emails that were never opened; recalling unopened emails doesn't involve breaking into the recipient's machine to do it.  If he could recall/delete voicemails that were never listened to through his own phone, then it would be the same.  

[Auntie Anxiety]

3 hours ago, GussieK said:

 

Who is the guy who stole the laptop?  Were we supposed to recognize him?

I thought that the guy who stole the laptop was someone working for Chuck. Chuck knew the S&M stuff would be a problem, so he's trying to get that piece of information out of the equation when he formally throws his hat into the ring for the election. Also there are other important people on the laptop who partake in it, so Chuck might have an opportunity to coerce them into supporting him, or else...... But what about the pictures Bobby got from his guy? What happened to them? Did Bobby give them up to Wendy? Did he have copies?

Wrt Axe's voice messages, he's not used to anyone defying him and he ran the range of emotions with Lara. He was frustrated that she didn't answer him, he was upset that he couldn't control her, he was pissed that the situation didn't resolve itself quickly enough. He tried to sweet talk her but it didn't work and rarely is Bobby made to wait for gratification. So, yeah, I get it.

Why we're all those detectives at Lara's brother' house? Or was that a house they were investigating?

Welcome to the dark side, Taylor, where money trumps everything else. Guess Taylor was pro Occupy Wall Street until push came to shove. When money comes into the picture, people easily lose their moral compasses. That being said, I have no problem with Taylor liking their new-found wealth. If you earn it legitimately, you can spend it to get what you want. I much prefer that to someone who is a hypocrite about his/her/their wealth.

[lampwick]

Yeah, on its face, it's super shady and dishonest for Axe to delete the voicemails, but more significantly, Axe deleted Lara's voicemails because he didn't want to explain his outbursts.  That's just straightup cowardice.

Taylor is taking Axe's advice to do it all.  They can give to charity and live large; the 2 are not mutually exclusive.  Yeah, they are spending crazy money on the apartment, but they also have way more money to donate to charity than they otherwise would have had but for working for Axe.  Works for me.  

[EtheltoTillie]

2 hours ago, clb1016 said:

Referencing Godfather, Part 2.  Axe had referred in an earlier message to being struck like a lightning bolt when he first met Lara (as was said about Michael Corleone when he first saw Apollonia, who was later killed by a car bomb which had been set to kill Michael).

Yes, and this made me think that she HAD listened to the messages.  But maybe she didn't . . .  But they know each other so well, she made the reference?  

31 minutes ago, Auntie Anxiety said:

I thought that the guy who stole the laptop was someone working for Chuck. Chuck knew the S&M stuff would be a problem, so he's trying to get that piece of information out of the equation when he formally throws his hat into the ring for the election. Also there are other important people on the laptop who partake in it, so Chuck might have an opportunity to coerce them into supporting him, or else...... But what about the pictures Bobby got from his guy? What happened to them? Did Bobby give them up to Wendy? Did he have copies?

 

Yes, but literally who was it?  Whom would Chuck trust enough to hire for that gig?  When the guy removed the mask were we supposed to have realized we've seen him before?  

[chick binewski]

10 hours ago, dwmarch said:

Agreed, so much love for this show! The only thing that didn't work for me was Mary Louise Parker's faux-Texan accent but that's only because I've been a fan of hers for years and I know what she's supposed to sound like. Letting her use her natural voice would have worked better IMO.

It was so distracting! And the vocal fry did not help at all. 

I sometimes am find the scenery chewing this show requires of its' actors distracting, but I enjoyed Jeffrey DeMunn's reaction to MLP. It was so out of character. When's the last time you think he offered to get Chuck's mom a piece of pound cake? 

5 hours ago, clb1016 said:

Am I the only one who's disappointed in the way Taylor's transformation has been written?  I understand that money is a corrupting influence but this hasn't been a gradual transformation; it's as if someone flipped a switch.

Yeah, I always have some disappointment with the way these characters end up being written. I'm now wondering if a non-gender conforming actor was cast just to make the threat of prison all that more ominous.      

59 minutes ago, ahpny said:

But it's the marriage-related drama that didn't really work for me in several ways. First, we learn that Wendy purposely torpedoed Axe and Lara's relationship as revenge for being disrespected by Lara. Smug though Lara was to Wendy, the Wendy we know is too controled and wise to take that bait. That she did wasn't in character for her. 

Second, the special snow-flake quality that Lara has, as commented by both Axe and Wendy, is not apparent to me.  Malin Akerman is certainly beautiful and a reasonably talented actress, but for me, there's nothing to warrant the singularity that others seem to think Lara is. As with "Karen Cartwright" on Smash, no matter how many times the script may say she's wonderful and unique, if she's not actually wonderful or unique, this sort of falls flat. And what's Lara's brother's beef with Axe? Does he think Axe secretly beats her or something? Lara's brother doesn't seem like the type overly concerned with insider trading or finacial ethics. He's certainly not bothered by living in a house that Axe paid for.

Third, who exactly is Axe now? His schizophrenic messages are supposed to show what, devotion mixed with bullying? Coming undone because he loves her so much? That, in his core, he resents her for missing out on screwing around for 15 years despite ample opportunities (with "some of her so-called friends" no less)? Why exactly is he so ruthless with everyone else, but boasts about being scrupulously honest with Lara? Indeed, being honest isn't something to be done to score points, but something to do because it's the right thing to do. Also, it's not credible that this is the first lie he's told her in 15 years. One thing that didn't bother me, however, is him erasing his own messages. Though it's surely an invasion of privacy to do peak into her phone, erasing his own messages seems more like "recalling" an email that was never opened.

Even though last week I thought she was aiming for Axe, I kind of bought Wendy taking a shot at Lara too. I don't think it's ever been confirmed that Wendy knew Axe before Lara did but I could see their resentment being something that's simmered for a long time.

The Oh So Specialness of Lara is lost on me as well. This is a woman who will gut you like a fish at the slightest perceived slight. And I thought Axe's voicemails were a good mirror to Lara's antics. Everything is conditional and/or transactional.

I also don't get what Lara's brother's issue is either but that may be because it's Lara's family and they all carry the tedium gene.

1 hour ago, lampwick said:

Yeah, on its face, it's super shady and dishonest for Axe to delete the voicemails, but more significantly, Axe deleted Lara's voicemails because he didn't want to explain his outbursts.  That's just straightup cowardice.

Taylor is taking Axe's advice to do it all.  They can give to charity and live large; the 2 are not mutually exclusive.  Yeah, they are spending crazy money on the apartment, but they also have way more money to donate to charity than they otherwise would have had but for working for Axe.  Works for me.  

I thought Axe's comment was possibly written to illustrate why he gives. In general, I find the attitude of 'I can afford to be a bit loose w/the cash b/c I can afford it' perfectly acceptable - except money also gives you the opportunity to make more responsible choices (you don't have to support businesses whose practices you don't agree with, you can afford to invest in more socially conscious endeavors). But with someone like Axe (and, eventually, his employees) you're pushing food around your plate at best; you do damage somewhere so you throw money somewhere else. At worst you're running through the environment, your family and everyone & everything else just because you can write a check to make the issue disappear from your eyes and leave the problems for those left behind.

[seasquared]

3 hours ago, clb1016 said:

Referencing Godfather, Part 2.  Axe had referred in an earlier message to being struck like a lightning bolt when he first met Lara (as was said about Michael Corleone when he first saw Apollonia, who was later killed by a car bomb which had been set to kill Michael).

Thank you!!!

[wilnil]

On ‎4‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 0:35 PM, ahpny said:

But also, what exactly about signing that report signaled Taylor's walk on the wild side anyway? We've never seen Taylor asked to do anything illegal or even terribly immoral, that I know.

As I understood it (and I'm not 100% sure I'm right, given my limited knowledge of how the financial industry and its laws work), Axe's whole interest in the Klaxon Co. is because he's got insider information on it, which is illegal to use. So Mafee and the other guy were tasked with coming up with an analysis of the company that would justify shorting its stock for reasons other than the insider info, and they were failing. Taylor found an approach that would work and prepared that report -- which may make him guilty of helping conceal Axe Capital's use of insider information (assuming Axe goes through with the deal).

Edited April 26, 2017 by wilnil
To fix %$@#& autocorrect of 'Mafee' to 'McAfee'

[PBSLover]

3 hours ago, ahpny said:

But it's the marriage-related drama that didn't really work for me in several ways. First, we learn that Wendy purposely torpedoed Axe and Lara's relationship as revenge for being disrespected by Lara. Smug though Lara was to Wendy, the Wendy we know is too controled and wise to take that bait. That she did wasn't in character for her. 

 

3 hours ago, ahpny said:

Third, who exactly is Axe now? His schizophrenic messages are supposed to show what, devotion mixed with bullying? Coming undone because he loves her so much? That, in his core, he resents her for missing out on screwing around for 15 years despite ample opportunities (with "some of her so-called friends" no less)? Why exactly is he so ruthless with everyone else, but boasts about being scrupulously honest with Lara? Indeed, being honest isn't something to be done to score points, but something to do because it's the right thing to do. Also, it's not credible that this is the first lie he's told her in 15 years. One thing that didn't bother me, however, is him erasing his own messages. Though it's surely an invasion of privacy to do peak into her phone, erasing his own messages seems more like "recalling" an email that was never opened.

For both of these comments: The first season of the show displayed characters who were winners all around. This season we are seeing the real people, flawed humans who don’t get everything right all the time.  First Chuck, then Wags, now Wendy and Axe.  I think it makes them more human and way more interesting to watch. Perfection is boring.

2 hours ago, GussieK said:

Yes, but literally who was it?  Whom would Chuck trust enough to hire for that gig?  When the guy removed the mask were we supposed to have realized we've seen him before?

Chuck’s dad hired him to follow Axe. It’s how he got the information about the interest in the town with the possible gaming license and put the kibosh on that (go back and watch the first couple of episodes - he is interacting with dad).  Dad must have told Chuck about him and Chuck used him to get the laptop.  No loose ends.

4 hours ago, clb1016 said:

Referencing Godfather, Part 2.  Axe had referred in an earlier message to being struck like a lightning bolt when he first met Lara (as was said about Michael Corleone when he first saw Apollonia, who was later killed by a car bomb which had been set to kill Michael).

Thanks for this.  I didn’t hear what they said and wouldn’t have understood it if I had. Also, this happened in The Godfather.  First movie. :0]

1 hour ago, chick binewski said:

It was so distracting! And the vocal fry did not help at all.

Ha!  Totally.  Howard Stern listener, are you?

[EtheltoTillie]

7 minutes ago, PBSLover said:

Chuck’s dad hired him to follow Axe. It’s how he got the information about the interest in the town with the possible gaming license and put the kibosh on that (go back and watch the first couple of episodes - he is interacting with dad).  Dad must have told Chuck about him and Chuck used him to get the laptop.  No loose ends.

Thanks for this.  I was not paying close attention in those previous episodes.  It seemed that even if I paid attention I could not make sense of who was doing what to whom.

[PBSLover]

33 minutes ago, GussieK said:

Thanks for this.  I was not paying close attention in those previous episodes.  It seemed that even if I paid attention I could not make sense of who was doing what to whom.

Also, he is included in the beginning of this episode when they are recapping.

[Pop Tart]

Quote

Though they spilled their "troubles" to Wendy a bit in a prior episode, that was really 'I'm more upset with myself for being not that upset." Again, no real development about how or why the sudden embrace of the "darkness." But also, what exactly about signing that report signaled Taylor's walk on the wild side anyway? We've never seen Taylor asked to do anything illegal or even terribly immoral, that I know.

I think you're right about Taylor's convo with Wendy. It was more like they thought they should be upset at what had happened in Sandicot and weren't, so was that wrong. Early on when Taylor told Axe that working at the firm made them physically uncomfortable I got the sense it had more to do with the overly-energetic people, hard-charging environment, then it did doing what the firm does. Taylor has several times suggested that what they feel is actually different then what they think they should feel - in addition to the Wendy discussion, there was the discussion about being on the chess team when they were in college. Taylor at first suggests the reason they left the team was one thing, but eventually admits they were pushed out for being too good and how angry that made them feel. 

All of this is to say that I don't think Taylor is necessarily a liberal/progressive, rather is someone who has a worldview that makes sense to them guided by really very pragmatic and objective considerations. Taylor does form personal connections, like wanting to cheer up their fellow analyst because they weren't doing well (bought him the UFC poster) and certainly seems to be developing a respect for Axe, but in broader terms I don't think they're easily labeled. Taylor was the one who said they should pull the plug on Sandicot without reference to how that made anyone feel (I think this was after the discussion with Wendy). And I think Taylor's meeting with the US attorney guy (can't remember his name) was merely a fact-finding mission. If Taylor thought they had enough to charge Axe, the conclusion of that meeting would have been far different. But because Brian (ah I just remembered his name) didn't have a shred of evidence and instead was making all kinds of assumptions about who Taylor was based solely on their resume, Taylor almost laughed in his face. 

Quote

Even though last week I thought she was aiming for Axe, I kind of bought Wendy taking a shot at Lara too. I don't think it's ever been confirmed that Wendy knew Axe before Lara did but I could see their resentment being something that's simmered for a long time.

I also don't get what Lara's brother's issue is either but that may be because it's Lara's family and they all carry the tedium gene.

We did get evidence in this episode that Axe knew Wendy before he knew Lara. When Wendy is apologizing to him for telling Lara the truth, she references when Axe met Lara and how she (Wendy) at first was skeptical of their relationship and Axe's quick decision that Lara was the one.

The reason Lara's brother has an issue with Axe is because he's a cop and they found out last season that Axe had somehow done a deal at the expense of first responders who died on 9/11 or one that exploited their memory. I can't remember the details, but he had been looked up to by police and fire because of his big donations to them, but it came out that he had also totally exploited the events of 9/11 to make millions of dollars. So Lara's family (which includes a fair number of first responders) really soured on him. 

Edited April 24, 2017 by Pop Tart

[PBSLover]

Re-watching the episode.  Connerty/Taylor exchanges both in the coffee shop and at the U.S. Attorney’s office was SO ODD. Connerty is so awkward.

[dmc]

Lara leaves take his kids and doesn't disclose their location...if someone took my kids I would call the cops...

Edited April 24, 2017 by dmc

[AlleC17]

He is lucky to have had the chance to delete those voicemails:  had Lara listened to some of them, Axe would never be able to sleep soundly again for fear of her stabbing him in the back.  lol  However, I really hope she finds out about him deleting them somehow.  None of these people are very good, and deserve some pain.  Can't wait for Chuck's dad to have something bad happen as well...smug bastard. 

Connerty really can't get a good read on Taylor.  Like at all.

It makes me roll my eyes some whenever Wendy goes on her 'I want to help people' speech when the people she helps at Axe Capital are quite often, pretty despicable.  The hedge fund boys are arrogant assholes...why is she so worried about helping them? 

[Lemons]

44 minutes ago, Pop Tart said:

The reason Lara's brother has an issue with Axe is because he's a cop and they found out last season that Axe had somehow done a deal at the expense of first responders who died on 9/11 or one that exploited their memory. I can't remember the details, but he had been looked up to by police and fire because of his big donations to them, but it came out that he had also totally exploited the events of 9/11 to make millions of dollars. So Lara's family (which includes a fair number of first responders) really soured on him. 

Within minutes of the towers coming down he realized he could make a profit off it by doing stuff with airline stocks or something.  As bad as a war profiteer.   

 

26 minutes ago, dmc said:

Lara leaves take his kids and doesn't disclose their location...if someone took my kids I would call the cops...

Lara was the parent and the primary caretaker.  It's not a police problem.  His anguish and rage were so out of control over her taking the kids for 1 day.  He hunted her down within hours.  What did he think she was going to do?  And with all his thug employees, she wouldn't get very far.

[PBSLover]

18 minutes ago, AlleC17 said:

It makes me roll my eyes some whenever Wendy goes on her 'I want to help people' speech when the people she helps at Axe Capital are quite often, pretty despicable.  The hedge fund boys are arrogant assholes...why is she so worried about helping them? 

Wendy helped build Axe Capital into what it is. That is why she is invested.  Her advising the staff is what she does for a living.

[AlleC17]

58 minutes ago, PBSLover said:

Wendy helped build Axe Capital into what it is. That is why she is invested.  Her advising the staff is what she does for a living.

Yes, I am aware.  I still don't buy her 'I just want to help people' bit.  ymmv

[clb1016]

1 hour ago, Lemons said:

Lara was the parent and the primary caretaker.  It's not a police problem.  His anguish and rage were so out of control over her taking the kids for 1 day.  He hunted her down within hours.  What did he think she was going to do?  And with all his thug employees, she wouldn't get very far.

 

Don't they also have something like 5 homes?  She could be at or on her way to any one of them.  Police wouldn't be in any hurry to start what would likely be a waste of time.

[hoodooznoodooz]

2 hours ago, AlleC17 said:

He is lucky to have had the chance to delete those voicemails:  had Lara listened to some of them, Axe would never be able to sleep soundly again for fear of her stabbing him in the back.  lol  However, I really hope she finds out about him deleting them somehow.  None of these people are very good, and deserve some pain.  Can't wait for Chuck's dad to have something bad happen as well...smug bastard. 

Connerty really can't get a good read on Taylor.  Like at all.

It makes me roll my eyes some whenever Wendy goes on her 'I want to help people' speech when the people she helps at Axe Capital are quite often, pretty despicable.  The hedge fund boys are arrogant assholes...why is she so worried about helping them? 

My phone has a Deleted Messages area at the bottom of all my saved voicemails. 

[PBSLover]

Two more things:

1) How about the coffee shop barista not reacting or looking at either Connerty or Taylor when she says 'you’ve been following me.’ If you were waiting on someone and that exchange took place in front of you, wouldn’t you at least be a little interested? 

2) I heard a criminal profiler on a radio show say that people who have a neurotic/dysfunctional parent will most likely develop a sexual deviation.  We all know what Chuck’s problem is (dad).  I wonder what Wendy’s deal is?  It can’t just be that she is role playing for Chuck’s sake.

17 hours ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

My phone has a Deleted Messages area at the bottom of all my saved voicemails. 

Uh-oh.

Edited April 25, 2017 by PBSLover

[CleoCaesar]

Quote

The only thing that didn't work for me was Mary Louise Parker's faux-Texan accent but that's only because I've been a fan of hers for years and I know what she's supposed to sound like. Letting her use her natural voice would have worked better IMO.

It took me a while to realize that she was going for a Southern accent. It sounded more like MLP was either drunk or recovering from a stroke.

[scrb]

I thought Axe and Lara were together before they hit it filthy rich.  Like they both came up in a small, working class town together.  In fact just a couple of eps ago, they went to that dog track, which is what Bobby used to do before he even got into finance.

Actually if they've only been together 15 years, they'd have met just after 9/11 when he hit it big?

If Wendy knew Axe before he met Lara, that means Axe Capital had already started so he was already rich, not as rich as he is now but still very rich.

Anyways she loaded up her car with some gold bars, which is what dictators do when they're about to be deposed and have to flee the country.  What was she going to do, exchange each of them for big stacks of cash?

Pizza guy is no longer chummy with Bobby after Axe dismantled Sandicott.

As for Taylor, if she had any moral qualms, she presumably wouldn't have come to Axe Capital in the first place? Certainly she'd have checked out the firm and found that it was prosecuted and has generally been under a big cloud of suspicion.  Plus, choosing finance as career these days is about getting paid, above anything else.

The writers or showrunners may have decided to introduce this character as another loyal true believer but her weird affect (Connerty can't get a good read on her) and her transgender status differentiate her from the other Axe Cap. toadies.  Plus the previews show she's still talking to Brian so maybe she's not a lost cause yet.

[Charmie]

7 hours ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

My phone has a Deleted Messages area at the bottom of all my saved voicemails. 

I was thinking the same thing when Axe just deleted the vmails once. Lara has an iPhone which does not completely delete vmails until you clear the Deleted Messages folder.

[dmc]

14 hours ago, clb1016 said:

Don't they also have something like 5 homes?  She could be at or on her way to any one of them.  Police wouldn't be in any hurry to start what would likely be a waste of time.

Considering the money he gave to the police department the fact the guy that runs it is his friend, they would help him.  He invests for them remember.

15 hours ago, Lemons said:

Within minutes of the towers coming down he realized he could make a profit off it by doing stuff with airline stocks or something.  As bad as a war profiteer.   

 

Lara was the parent and the primary caretaker.  It's not a police problem.  His anguish and rage were so out of control over her taking the kids for 1 day.  He hunted her down within hours.  What did he think she was going to do?  And with all his thug employees, she wouldn't get very far.

Actually no, unless they have a prior custody agreement Lara isn't the primary anything.  They are both their parents.  If my children are missing and I don't know their exact location, I would call the police and use every inch of the law to find them.  If you want to leave fine, but you take someone's kids and that is a HUGE issue. 

[MV007]

Lara has been shown to have friends as well.  Her brother is a cop.  I'm also not sure the cops would do anything inside 24 hours where its clearly a domestic dispute.  Not accounting for Axe's billions opening doors for him, I would think in most situations the cops would say come back to us in another 24 hours if she doesn't come home unless you have a real reason why she may have run off permanently.  

Edited April 25, 2017 by MV007

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

Wendy purposely torpedoed Axe and Lara's relationship as revenge for being disrespected by Lara.

Wendy didn't torpedo their relationship. She told Wendy Lara some truth about Axe and Wendy chose to let it almost torpedo her relationship. There are plenty of other ways she could've handled it but she opted for the one where she gives Axe a taste of what it would be like to lose her and the boys. As a bonus she got Wendy to come to her to offer mea culpas.

Quote

Smug though Lara was to Wendy, the Wendy we know is too controled and wise to take that bait. That she did wasn't in character for her.  

 

It wasn't in character for what we've seen of her so far. But, everyone has their limit, an invisible line that they won't let others cross without consequences. Lara seems to have hit Wendy's limit and Wendy let her know, "Don't come for me unless I send for you." I think it was worthwhile for Lara to learn that she can't steamroller over everyone even if she's feeling insecure.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Joimiaroxeu

[Sheenieb]

Quote

As for Taylor, if she had any moral qualms, she presumably wouldn't have come to Axe Capital in the first place? Certainly she'd have checked out the firm and found that it was prosecuted and has generally been under a big cloud of suspicion.  Plus, choosing finance as career these days is about getting paid, above anything else.

Pretty much. Considering how much scrutiny Axe Capital is under, they had to have known about the shadiness of the company. Axe Cap isn't some plucky startup, it's been in the game for almost 20 years. So I'm not surprised at Taylor's turn to the darkside. I'm reminded of what Jimmy Darmody said to Nucky on Boardwalk Empire, "you can't be half a gangster." Taylor may have been hesitant at first, but the turning point for me was when she went all in about bankrupting Sandicot. That's when I knew what time it was with them. They'll have their moments when their conscious gets the best of them, like using the private jet and renting the apartment (which is insane to me. If you have all that money then why not buy? You'd think that finance people would know not to burn through money).

I'm more surprised that Mafee still works there. He's the class clown of the analysts, but he seems to still have a moral center. Maybe it would've been plausible to try to turn Mafee? Though Taylor is an interesting character.

[PBSLover]

1 hour ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Wendy didn't torpedo their relationship. She told Wendy some truth about Axe and Wendy chose to let it almost torpedo her relationship.

Lara opened the door with her condescending “We think it’s best.” She deserved it.  I just hope Lara sees that Wendy is not as black and white as she has come to see her.  Next week will be interesting.

16 minutes ago, Sheenieb said:

I'm more surprised that Mafee still works there. He's the class clown of the analysts, but he seems to still have a moral center. Maybe it would've been plausible to try to turn Mafee?

Mafee has been bringing Bobby talented people into Axe Cap.  He’s still an asset.

[scrb]

Trying to remember the witnesses that Chuck turned.  One was the black assistant, who got shut out after awhile.  So she's kind of a disgruntled employee, who pointed then towards Taylor.

Another was the Spartan Ives guy, after they taped Boyd screwing his wife.

Otherwise, Dollar Bill stayed loyal, talking like he's some mob guy protecting his Don.  Then there was the guy Axe had fired but he wanted back in.

And of course the guy from last season who had terminal disease who tricked Rhodes into trusting him.

So people in finance are that loyal?  I don't know if one of these soft, upper middle class guys was facing prison or testifying, I think most of them would flip.  They would probably be blackballed in the industry, so no more big paydays.  But how do they weigh things, prison vs. money?

[scrb]

I'll be interested to see how the IPO thing plays out, with Chuck betting all his money on it and Boyd tipping off Axe about it.

OK, Boyd is doing community service but he's staying out of jail and will presumably go back to running Spartan Ives.  So why would he tip Bobby knowing that he will short the IPO?  Wouldn't that hurt his firm?

Also, for a red-hot IPO, which Chuck and his father expect to shoot up, it's highly doubtful one firm can short it effectively.  Most of the IPOs will pop in first day of trading, going up at least 30-40%, often double or triple the IPO price.  Axe would have to short a lot of shares, going against the tide of enthusiasm for the IPO.

A hot IPO will have a lot of demand for shares or be oversubscribed.  It would be difficult for one firm to overcome that demand and short it enough to drive the price down.  It would take billions in capital and the big name IPOs like Facebook or more recently Snap are valued at tens or hundreds of billions right out of the gate, at the IPO price, before investors can bid up shares to double or triple the price on the first day of trading.

Since Chuck isn't an employee of the company, he would have no lock-up period so he would be able to sell his shares on the first day, if it shoots up on that first day of trading.

Only way Axe might be able to move the needle is if this IPO is not that hot, has really low valuation like in the millions rather than hundreds of millions or billions and there is little demand for it.

But they've represented it as a big deal, in which case, more likely than not, Axe Capital is probably getting IPO shares to flip for itself, not to short.

[AlleC17]

17 hours ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

My phone has a Deleted Messages area at the bottom of all my saved voicemails. 

I hope Lara's does too! 

[Pop Tart]

Quote

So people in finance are that loyal?  I don't know if one of these soft, upper middle class guys was facing prison or testifying, I think most of them would flip.  They would probably be blackballed in the industry, so no more big paydays.  But how do they weigh things, prison vs. money?

I'm not sure it's this - it's more that right now the US attorneys are just fishing. They don't know of any one thing that Axe is doing illegally at the moment, they suspect because they're a hedge fund that they must be doing something illegal, but they don't have anything actionable at the moment. So if you're Taylor or Mafee for that matter and the US Attorney comes to you and makes vague threats against Axe and Axe capital are you going to immediately spill everything and give up your hundreds of thousands of dollars in salary and bonuses? Or wait for the actual shit to be hitting the fan?

[MV007]

2 hours ago, scrb said:

I'll be interested to see how the IPO thing plays out, with Chuck betting all his money on it and Boyd tipping off Axe about it.

OK, Boyd is doing community service but he's staying out of jail and will presumably go back to running Spartan Ives.  So why would he tip Bobby knowing that he will short the IPO?  Wouldn't that hurt his firm?

Also, for a red-hot IPO, which Chuck and his father expect to shoot up, it's highly doubtful one firm can short it effectively.  Most of the IPOs will pop in first day of trading, going up at least 30-40%, often double or triple the IPO price.  Axe would have to short a lot of shares, going against the tide of enthusiasm for the IPO.

A hot IPO will have a lot of demand for shares or be oversubscribed.  It would be difficult for one firm to overcome that demand and short it enough to drive the price down.  It would take billions in capital and the big name IPOs like Facebook or more recently Snap are valued at tens or hundreds of billions right out of the gate, at the IPO price, before investors can bid up shares to double or triple the price on the first day of trading.

Since Chuck isn't an employee of the company, he would have no lock-up period so he would be able to sell his shares on the first day, if it shoots up on that first day of trading.

Only way Axe might be able to move the needle is if this IPO is not that hot, has really low valuation like in the millions rather than hundreds of millions or billions and there is little demand for it.

But they've represented it as a big deal, in which case, more likely than not, Axe Capital is probably getting IPO shares to flip for itself, not to short.

I honestly know very little about this sort thing but I don't think the show is trying to portray this Juice company as a Facebook or Snapchat level company.  I would think its some regional juice  store with some nice buzz.  

[PBSLover]

Funny how Lara believes Wendy when she says she set the policy between Axe and herself, quickly believing her Axe lied to her. If this is the first time Axe lied to her during their entire marriage, and she reacts like this, what does that say about what is between them?

Also, Mary Louise Parker is a goddess, but I hate what is going on with her lips.  I haven’t seen her in a couple of years so just an observation.

[scrb]

4 hours ago, MV007 said:

I honestly know very little about this sort thing but I don't think the show is trying to portray this Juice company as a Facebook or Snapchat level company.  I would think its some regional juice  store with some nice buzz.  

Yeah I agree with that but a couple of years ago, Vitamin Water hit it big as an IPO and David Wright made a ton of money from it:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/05/26/david-wright-50-cent-make_n_49441.html

[ladle]

I realize that all of these characters are supposed to be deeply flawed, but this episode made me really, really dislike both Axe and Lara.  More than I already did.

[Carolina Girl]

On 4/24/2017 at 0:54 PM, PBSLover said:

 

For both of these comments: The first season of the show displayed characters who were winners all around. This season we are seeing the real people, flawed humans who don’t get everything right all the time.  First Chuck, then Wags, now Wendy and Axe.  I think it makes them more human and way more interesting to watch. Perfection is boring.

Chuck’s dad hired him to follow Axe. It’s how he got the information about the interest in the town with the possible gaming license and put the kibosh on that (go back and watch the first couple of episodes - he is interacting with dad).  Dad must have told Chuck about him and Chuck used him to get the laptop.  No loose ends.

Thanks for this.  I didn’t hear what they said and wouldn’t have understood it if I had. Also, this happened in The Godfather.  First movie. :0]

Ha!  Totally.  Howard Stern listener, are you?

I believe Axe made the thunderbolt remark after Lara got out of the car.  

[Joimiaroxeu]

On 4/25/2017 at 8:47 AM, Joimiaroxeu said:

Wendy didn't torpedo their relationship. She told Wendy Lara some truth about Axe and Wendy Lara chose to let it almost torpedo her relationship. There are plenty of other ways she could've handled it but she opted for the one where she gives Axe a taste of what it would be like to lose her and the boys. As a bonus she got Wendy to come to her to offer mea culpas.

It wasn't in character for what we've seen of her so far. But, everyone has their limit, an invisible line that they won't let others cross without consequences. Lara seems to have hit Wendy's limit and Wendy let her know, "Don't come for me unless I send for you." I think it was worthwhile for Lara to learn that she can't steamroller over everyone even if she's feeling insecure.

Almost a year later and I'm still fixing the attributions...

[kieyra]

New to the show, binging. I’m admittedly tired of Serious White Men Doing the Very Serious Business of Crime and/or Politics and/or Both, especially when it involves overly flowery speeches punctuated with F-bombs. It’s possble True Detective is to blame for my antipathy, don’t know.

ANYWAY, I came for Asia Kate Dillon, and I’m glad to see Taylor’s character achieving more prominence. I can see why some feel the shift to “the dark side” seems abrupt, but I think there’s been foreshadowing. They have always tended to push back against people’s assumptions about them. I can see how making Taylor the earnest voice of conscience would have been the easy choice when introducing what I understand to be prestige TV’s first gender neutral character. (The “minority character with a heart of gold” trope.) I’m glad they’re keeping us guessing. (Bearing in mind I’m only up to the episode from this thread.) I also don’t think it’s as simple as being wowed by riches, either. Even still, if this is going to be a full “turns evil” arc, I’m here for that too. 

As for other plot lines ... utterly, utterly bored by Axe himself. Maggie Siff and Paul Giamatti continue to be completely unconvincing as a couple, and Lara is a cipher at best, boring at worst. (At least the former two are stellar actors. I’ve never been big on PG and they’ve got him delivering the kind of unrealistically baroque dialogue I fucking hate these days, again thank you True Detective, but he still sells it 100%. Wendy Rhoades doesn’t make a whole lot of sense as a character, but MS is doing the best she can with it.)

Lara might be more interesting if she would shut the fuck up about Wendy, and show a little more subtlety if she really loathes her so much. She just complains, doesn’t act on it except in dumb little mean-girl proto-evil BS like with the 9/11 widow in S1.

Final complaint, and back on topic for this specific episode: the music choices for this show are pretty terrible. Between the Metallica cameo (and good God, what a waste of Carrie Bishe in that scene), the Megadeth (FFS), and now maybe U2s biggest hit ever as the episode’s titular song. Musical equivalent of a blunt knife.

... sticking with it for Asia Kate Dillon. Can’t take my eyes off them. (Was also true in OITNB.)

Edited June 6, 2018 by kieyra