S05.E07: The Committee on Human Rights

[MisterBluxom]

7 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Sloppy writing abounds. A company which is developing wheat for the international market suddenly places razor wire and armed guards around a greenhouse, because somebody who works for yet another company, in another city, raising insects, has disappeared? Huh? 

The writers obviously wanted Tai Chi Ben followed by E & P, so they cooked up this nonsense. Work a little harder, people.

Not only that ... but what happened to the kid from Viet Nam and that whole story line? If the writers can't manage to keep all their balls in the air, maybe they shouldn't throw up that many in the first place?

Sorry. I'm still asleep. I'm a little angry because we've been clamoring for a long time the season is moving way too slow because there are way too many story lines. Now we get an episode where one of the major story lines just disappears for the week and ... well ... you know the rest.

Maybe Henry and Tuan are off exploring their youthful gay sex? Not that there's anything wrong with that. But it might explain why Henry is always disappearing.

Yuck. What a poor post. I think I should go back to sleep.

[Bannon]

4 hours ago, vb68 said:

It was a rather dull episode indeed.  My biggest reaction is being happy and relieved for Matthew. Seriously he should be thankful  that drama's over. He's also lucky she didn't physically hurt him, which she would've if he pushed any further.

Elizabeth's beaming face cracked me up at the beginning when Gabriel was laying it on thick for Paige about them being heroes and her courage. She was loving every second of that.  Too bad she can't fake it like that for Henry and his math genius.

But I thought Elizabeth and Philip were total fucking hypocrites for not telling her any revised story about the wheat. So much for their high idealism.

And that makes me realize that a missing piece in Paige's internal struggle is that she is in fact American.  She did just accept the wheat stuff too easily. Having been a teenager in this era myself, I remember how strong US pride and anti-Russian feelings were then. We also weren't shy about trash talking commies and what have you.  Just saying I don't think they have really captured that dynamic with the kids. I would think they would touch on it with Tuan and Pavel, who would have likely been called a commie to his face if not worse, at school. In short, kids really were jingoistic assholes for the most part.  But anyway, yeah I would have liked Paige to express more doubt on the wheat stuff. If that is part of what's going on, I wish it was clearer.

Philip should just call it with the Topeka lady. It's obvious that he's wasting his time and might really mess up. Elizabeth is going to bite Ben's head off for something relatively minor. Speaking of him, I totally thought he made her for a second.  It looked like he did a double take in her direction. 

Gabriel's parting really was such sweet sorrow.  And him having to handle the wheat sample like a baby was cute. 

Paige is now being written as the most credulous teenager in the United States, and that is problematic. Langella is a great actor, but I do think making Claudia P & E's main handler again has potential to make the show better, because Martindale is also great, and, more importantly, there is potential for more conflict in the relationship; hell, they tortured Claudia once, when Claudia tried to push them too hard. If Martindale had not gotten more of a central role on another show, The Americans might have benefitted from having that more contentious relationship being more prominently featured.

[MisterBluxom]

40 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

I am too.  Given that I like Mr. Langella - I have a sense of warmth from his character that is much needed on this cold show, and now it will be gone. 

I'm sorry to be negative about this. I've always really enjoyed his work. If you want to see something really shocking, you should see the film "The Tweve Chairs". It stars Mr. Langella in his youth and he was one of the most handsome men in Hollywood at the time. I'm talking Rudolph Valentino handsome. No Kidding!  He could have been called the best looking man in motions pictures ever!

Maybe even just get a still shot of him from that picture. It's amazing.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066495/mediaviewer/rm1938673152

The above link is not a great picture. But it does show him in his youthful glory. The following pix are much better:

http://www.gettyimages.ca/photos/frank-langella?excludenudity=true&sort=mostpopular&mediatype=photography&phrase=frank langella&family=editorial

Boy! He sure must have gotten a whole lot of   ***BLEEP***   back in his youth.   (Not that there's anything wrong with that!)

But given he is leaving the show somewhat suddenly and there is no explanation, I would have to guess something bad is happening to him or with him. I sure do hope not because he is a great actor and has helped make some mediocre movies really great. But it seems to me these events forbode something very bad about to happen to him.

Edited April 19, 2017 by MissBluxom

[Erin9]

5 hours ago, chocolatine said:

"I didn't ask any questions" is the same thing the poor lab guy said before Philip and Elizabeth killed him. Maybe you should have asked, Philip.

I thought that was brilliant. Of course, no one was talking. And of course Philip didn't ask questions. Given where and when he grew up, that was smart really. He would have been conditioned not to imo. And I imagine no one would have been in a hurry to answer even if he had. His problem now is that he keeps asking, keeps pushing. Even with Renee. He had to ask one more thing. All the questions, all the pushback is getting him into trouble. 

[BetyBee]

I have to agree with the general opinion that this was not a good episode.  I don't care about Paige and Matthew.  I'm as glad as P&E that they broke up.  I hope her next boyfriend is cuter and shows some personality.  I'm tired of Henry never being home.  There has to be some reason they are keeping the actor out of the show this season.  I hope it's not because of his growth spurt.  They could have commented on it once and that would have been explanation enough.  Children do grow, especially teen-aged boys!  

I don't like the wheat story.  It's a big snore.  The only thing it can serve to do is to show what a failure the Centre is, that the Soviet Union is failing and that they've been doing all of this murder and mayhem to no avail.  I hope that dawns on Phillip at least. I also thought that Phillip would ask  Gabriel about his son, rather than Stan's girlfriend.  And the question really isn't answered.   I think we are supposed to see Phillip & Elizabeth's philosophies go on different tracks.  Gabriel only told Phillip that Paige isn't cut out for spying.  Elizabeth still thinks she will be her mini me.  I guess it could be interesting to see Phillip try to rescue the kids, but who knows if that is where it is going?  

[MisterBluxom]

2 minutes ago, BetyBee said:

I have to agree with the general opinion that this was not a good episode.  I don't care about Paige and Matthew.  I'm as glad as P&E that they broke up.  I hope her next boyfriend is cuter and shows some personality.  I'm tired of Henry never being home.  There has to be some reason they are keeping the actor out of the show this season.  I hope it's not because of his growth spurt.  They could have commented on it once and that would have been explanation enough.  Children do grow, especially teen-aged boys!  

I don't like the wheat story.  It's a big snore.  The only thing it can serve to do is to show what a failure the Centre is, that the Soviet Union is failing and that they've been doing all of this murder and mayhem to no avail.  I hope that dawns on Phillip at least. I also thought that Phillip would ask  Gabriel about his son, rather than Stan's girlfriend.  And the question really isn't answered.   I think we are supposed to see Phillip & Elizabeth's philosophies go on different tracks.  Gabriel only told Phillip that Paige isn't cut out for spying.  Elizabeth still thinks she will be her mini me.  I guess it could be interesting to see Phillip try to rescue the kids, but who knows if that is where it is going?  

I promise not to post anything further about bad things happening to Frank Langella. But it suddenly flashed across my mind that in an episode later on this season, they might try to do a "Henry Blake" exit. Someone will get a phone call and say, "I just got word that Gabriel was on a plane about to cross into Soviet air space and it crashed. There were no survivors."

[Bannon]

6 minutes ago, BetyBee said:

I have to agree with the general opinion that this was not a good episode.  I don't care about Paige and Matthew.  I'm as glad as P&E that they broke up.  I hope her next boyfriend is cuter and shows some personality.  I'm tired of Henry never being home.  There has to be some reason they are keeping the actor out of the show this season.  I hope it's not because of his growth spurt.  They could have commented on it once and that would have been explanation enough.  Children do grow, especially teen-aged boys!  

I don't like the wheat story.  It's a big snore.  The only thing it can serve to do is to show what a failure the Centre is, that the Soviet Union is failing and that they've been doing all of this murder and mayhem to no avail.  I hope that dawns on Phillip at least. I also thought that Phillip would ask  Gabriel about his son, rather than Stan's girlfriend.  And the question really isn't answered.   I think we are supposed to see Phillip & Elizabeth's philosophies go on different tracks.  Gabriel only told Phillip that Paige isn't cut out for spying.  Elizabeth still thinks she will be her mini me.  I guess it could be interesting to see Phillip try to rescue the kids, but who knows if that is where it is going?  

What is frustrating is that the wheat arc did not have to be a big snore. It was just poorly written, and I have a hard time imagining why.  

[topanga]

5 hours ago, jjj said:

I am so tired of the wheat.  

I thought people couldn't take plants through Customs. Or is that a recent thing?

 

9 hours ago, RedHawk said:

Speaking of Henry... I sure miss that kid even if his family doesn't. 

Me too! He's one of the only people on the show who speaks with a normal voice. Almost everyone else talks in these slow, hushed tones. Makes me sleepy, quite honestly. And the dialogue is hard to hear sometimes.

And how do P & E explain leaving a 13-year-old kid alone at home for days? I know they used to leave the kids alone overnight, but were they ever gone for days???

[SunnyBeBe]

I wish that P & E would work with Paige, so that she has some small talk on the tip of her tongue.  You know, like when she's going to meet with Pastor Tim she doesn't have to seem so depressed, miserable and constipated.  I would think there would be some things to say about her school work, how cute the baby is, how she's looking forward to the summer.....you know.  Instead, she sits and looks all down and starts discussion on philosophy.  

[Erin9]

I wonder if Gabriel really will get to retire. Gaad died during retirement. William died just before. So now we have Oleg, Gabriel and Misha home. 

P&E's lives are going to get a lot more difficult with Claudia as a handler. I really will miss Gabriel. He genuinely cared for them and vice versa. Claudia coming back when they're both faltering will be interesting to watch though. 

Watching P&E lie to Paige was sad, but I got it. They're struggling enough with her without having to backtrack on things and explain what a mess their bosses got them into. That'll inspire confidence. Kind of like Philip and Gabriel. 

I guess I'll be in the minority. I liked the episode. I think the season has gotten stronger as it's progressed. It's really become about a bunch of people who are getting progressively tired and dissatisfied with their jobs and their bosses questioning their loyalty. What do they do? What is the most important thing? Who are they really- as people? And where did they come from- their families- I mean?

Are we done with the wheat thing? They got Gabriel the plant. Are we now going to focus on the Russian family and that list Elizabeth got? I'm curious about both. 

[stagmania]

9 hours ago, benteen said:

I thought the episode was very good even though this was more of a low-key episode.  Thought there was some pretty good humor too, like Philip and Elizabeth's reaction to Ben's cheating on her and Gabriel's "Are you serious?" to Philip.

Yeah, I really don't get everyone saying this episode was dull; I thought it was hilarious. So many little moments of humor, and I laughed out loud a couple times. Phillip bombing hard with his mark, Matthew struggling to prove he knows Paige with "you like to read...", Phillip's amazing side eye when Elizabeth realized granola Ben is a cheater, Gabriel just cutting right to the point and telling Phillip he's losing it. I was thoroughly entertained. 

[Inquisitionist]

53 minutes ago, benteen said:

I think the season has been good but not great.  There has been no standout episode thus far....last week's episode was close.  It feels a little like they're coasting on their laurels and Season 5 has proven to be the weakest so far.  Hopefully that changes in the back six.

I can appreciate the occasional quiet moment, but this episode was a snooze-fest.

38 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

Sorry. I'm still asleep. I'm a little angry because we've been clamoring for a long time the season is moving way too slow because there are way too many story lines. Now we get an episode where one of the major story lines just disappears for the week and ... well ... you know the rest.

I don't mind having a storyline on the back-burner if what's upfront is more important at the moment.  But EVERY storyline this year is slow and bordering on nonsensical. 

8 minutes ago, topanga said:

I thought people couldn't take plants through Customs. Or is that a recent thing?

You can't bring plants into the US, but there is no Customs check on what you take out -- so it depends on the rules of where he is going.  I'd imagine Gabriel's first flight is a commercial one within the US, but how he gets to Russia involves some private transportation.  No Customs involved.

[stagmania]

5 hours ago, vb68 said:

But I thought Elizabeth and Philip were total fucking hypocrites for not telling her any revised story about the wheat. So much for their high idealism.

It would be pretty stupid of them to tell her that right now. They're trying to get her stable again; why introduce something that would send her spinning into more doubts and that they themselves have no good answer for? Helping Paige keep it together so the family can survive is more important than inviting her to grapple with the hard truths they face.

[Blakeston]

I've felt all along that if someone from the Center had a brief conversation with Paige, that would be all it took to convince them that she isn't spy material.

[sistermagpie]

6 hours ago, NitneLiun said:

Paige has quickly become the useful idiot. Frankly, she was heading in that direction even before she knew the big secret.

 

LOL! Exactly. What's also bizarre is that she's all incredulous and sad about this thing her parents told her the US government is doing, despite knowing that as Soviet spies they actually do not have an inside track on what the US government is doing, yet it never occurs to her to ask anything about what the Soviets are doing. I mean where I grew up there wasn't any big anti-Russia sentiment but there was still the general understanding of bad things about it. If she was researching this stuff this might have been a good time to bring up, say, Stalin starving people. She managed to come up with Watergate, which yes, is an example of the free information in the US being helpful. Meanwhile she has not a single question about the not-a-secret crimes of the USSR for whom her parents are working? 

This is another thing that always seemed likable about Henry. He never seemed to listen to something about any of this stuff without thinking for himself. Paige seems to see things from the pov of whatever person whose side she's on at any given moment. 

6 hours ago, NitneLiun said:

I so want to see Pastor Groovyhair spend the rest of his life in a federal maximum security pound-me-in-the-butt prison. 

LOL! It would be pretty satisfying if he got in trouble for this. I wonder if it occurs to him that giving her Marx and telling her that yes, she should work for everyone else is maybe saying more than he thinks. I mean, if he knows her parents are spies shouldn't it be logical that she might go that way too? Has it ever occurred to him to talk to Paige about the bad things about the USSR? 

6 hours ago, vb68 said:

It was a rather dull episode indeed.  My biggest reaction is being happy and relieved for Matthew. Seriously he should be thankful  that drama's over. He's also lucky she didn't physically hurt him, which she would've if he pushed any further.

 

Paige surprised him by pushing him with actual force, but he could still actually take her pretty easily. She panicked just when she wanted him to not touch her but it's not like she'd have hit him if he kept trying to argue with her. But otherwise I totally agree. Seeing the two of them really just brought home how neither of them is missing anything here. First there's Matthew with his ridiculous hair curtain which was not in style at that time at all, then his attempt to prove he knows Paige just brought up how boring this relationship ought to be for him as well. "You like to read books about which we apparently don't share an interest and you're into church, another thing in which I have no interest!"

I just hope that Paige's "there are things more important than me" is supposed to suggest that she's making some sacrifice giving up Matthew here. 

6 hours ago, vb68 said:

Philip should just call it with the Topeka lady. It's obvious that he's wasting his time and might really mess up.

I don't think he's necessarily wasting his time just because she's not into him. She's a workaholic who's happy just having him around for sex, so that's a relationship (her only one, it seems). She's not going to be Martha feeding him classified info, but the woman's work is her life and she might like to talk about it. She's into it enough that she does want to be with him--and we know she wouldn't hesitate to let him go if she didn't want him around. Ben seemed like the better angle, but he might not be, depending on what kind of info is useful. Neither's an easy mark for giving up classified info, probably. Unless Ben is maybe trying to impress with it.

Deirdre is kind of like what Stan said about the other woman--if you don't lie to the person you gain their trust. She's not making promises to Gus. If he's okay with her terms and shows it, that will only be good for him. Whether or not it leads to him getting info he needs remains to be seen. 

I guess Deirdre and Ben make for interesting parallels to the spies. They're both imitating their behavior for reasons of their own. Ben turns on something that feels like intimacy and then doing it with someone else. Deirdre just rejects real connection completely.

I thought that was brilliant. Of course, no one was talking. And of course Philip didn't ask questions. Given where and when he grew up, that was smart really. He would have been conditioned not to imo. And I imagine no one would have been in a hurry to answer even if he had. 

Yeah, he's hardly going to start asking about any crimes against humanity the KGB might have committed during the Terror. Plus we now know that not only his country but his household prioritized secret-keeping. The only reason Gabriel's talking to him now, besides Philip's badgering that's a result of years of evolution, is that Gabriel's an old man looking back on his life with regret and knowing he's going to die soon. 

I wish that P & E would work with Paige, so that she has some small talk on the tip of her tongue.  You know, like when she's going to meet with Pastor Tim she doesn't have to seem so depressed, miserable and constipated.  I would think there would be some things to say about her school work, how cute the baby is, how she's looking forward to the summer.....you know.  Instead, she sits and looks all down and starts discussion on philosophy.

 

LOL! I know, right? The only time Paige ever makes small talk is when she's being a terrible liar, babbling some cover story she or her parents' concocted when the person hasn't asked for one. It's one reason it's nice they had Stan basically ask what the hell was wrong with her. She says she's realized that there's more important things in the world than her, but she totally still considers herself the greatest martyr the world has ever seen. You'd think Matthew would have been kind of annoyed with her too. Maybe he will be when he gets over the shock.

That said, these are the scenes that Holly Taylor can do, imo. Where she's being tearful.

And how do P & E explain leaving a 13-year-old kid alone at home for days? I know they used to leave the kids alone overnight, but were they ever gone for days???

Probably fine for them to be gone for 2 nights with Paige the 16-year-old in charge in 1984. 

Btw, re: the Tuan storyline not only do we know for sure it's still going on and that it's taken a different turn, but they've even name-checked Tuan when he's not in an episode. It does seem especially frustrating with all the different things going on this season, none of which seem to have true priority, but a support character not being seen for however long does not drop a storyline. 

But I wish they'd let Philip actually have scenes with his sons. It's beginning to seem like all the men in Philip's family, including him, will just wind up ground up and scattered and not allowed to connect with each other so Elizabeth and Paige can continue to bond through their mutual gullibility and hero fantasies. Even Gabriel drops his bombs on Philip and then runs away leaving Philip looking truly shell-shocked about what to do with this information. (The Centre's really worried about Philip...so Imma share my own bad thoughts with Philip!) The show needs to give Henry a scene where he gets to explode over this or something--and not one that's immediately followed by Elizabeth or Philip carefully dealing with however Paige feels about that.

I mean, back in the first season this type of bonding was sort of foregrounded with Gregory. He and Elizabeth bonded through their mutual dedication and agreement that they would totally sacrifice each other for the cause. Philip represented the opposite. 

[dubbel zout]

8 hours ago, Bannon said:

the KGB is bothering to steal plants that an American company intends to sell anyhow. What, murder is no big deal, but patent infringement via purchase offends communist sensibilities, so the plant is stolen instead?

With the stolen plant they have immediate access and can start to reverse-engineer it or study it or whatever they need to do to make it for themselves. We don't know how close to being made available to the public the wheat is.

I don't know if there are any BTS reasons for Frank Langella leaving, but I think it makes sense in the show's universe for Gabriel to leave. He's right: There is a toll. We've seen how things are deteriorating, and I think Gabriel has always had a pretty pragmatic view of spying.

1 minute ago, sistermagpie said:

Neither's an easy mark for giving up classified info, probably.

I like seeing Philip, especially, really having to work to get information. He can't just dazzle the woman sexually and get her to tell him everything. (That's a simplification, of course.)

I loved, loved, loved MR's face at the very end when Gabriel told Philip that he was right about Paige not being KGB material.

[chick binewski]

2 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

But given he is leaving the show somewhat suddenly and there is no explanation, I would have to guess something bad is happening to him or with him. I sure do hope not because he is a great actor and has helped make some mediocre movies really great. But it seems to me these events forbode something very bad about to happen to him.

I appreciate this show doesn't go for the dramatic boom every time but I have some trouble believing we've seen the last of Gabriel , possibly because I'm just such a fan of Langella in this role. He plays so stalwart & true yet I'm absolutely convinced he's playing Philip AND Elizabeth every time they're together. Gabriel relayed a much different review of Paige to Philip than he did to Elizabeth. Was that to warn Philip or to test him? To keep Elizabeth on course?

I got to see Dracula with my 7th grade English class so I'm not a youngster but it amazed me that Langella is coming up on 80. (Raul Julia took over the role right before we went to the show - he was great but my teachers said Langella was much better with the cape!)      

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

I guess I'll be in the minority. I liked the episode. I think the season has gotten stronger as it's progressed. It's really become about a bunch of people who are getting progressively tired and dissatisfied with their jobs and their bosses questioning their loyalty. What do they do? What is the most important thing? Who are they really- as people? And where did they come from- their families- I mean?

I may be in an even smaller minority wishing this show would wrap up in Russia. I'd love to watch Elizabeth kvetch about the lack of stylish high heeled boots back home.

Also,Tara called it in the recap - Flap is totally Pastor Groovyhair's fashion spirit animal.

[attica]

Elizabeth in her curly red wig reminded me of Kenny's mom on South Park. (Nope, not a compliment.)

I think Holly Taylor is doing a lovely job. And she has a lovely complexion, which is kind of obsessing me.

Breaking Away is a really good movie, if you haven't seen it. Young, strapping, shirtless Dennis Quaid is thrown in for good measure.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

The Americans Send Gabriel Home

But does Commie Grandpa effectively impart his wisdom before he goes?

[Ellaria]

17 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It's beginning to seem like all the men in Philip's family, including him, will just wind up ground up and scattered and not allowed to connect with each other so Elizabeth and Paige can continue to bond through their mutual gullibility and hero fantasies.

I hope that doesn't happen to Phillip. I prefer that he, Tuan and Henry run off some place - maybe Hawaii and open up a surf shop. After last night, I would be perfectly happy to have Elizabeth and Paige remain behind to bond. But joking aside, Phillip would never leave them behind.

12 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I like seeing Philip, especially, really having to work to get information. He can't just dazzle the woman sexually and get her to tell him everything. (That's a simplification, of course.)

Simplification or not, I am enjoying this as well. His skills in the sack are not overwhelming her and he has to use other abilities. It was also delightful to see Elizabeth bothered over Ben and his Tennessee squeeze.

3 minutes ago, chick binewski said:

 I may be in an even smaller minority wishing this show would wrap up in Russia. I'd love to watch Elizabeth kvetch about the lack of stylish high heeled boots back home.

It would be interesting to see the show shift to Russia in the end. However, I'm not sure that Elizabeth ever makes it back there. Whether its because of footwear or larger issues, I think that E & P's final scenes are in the US.

[topanga]

4 minutes ago, attica said:

I think Holly Taylor is doing a lovely job. And she has a lovely complexion, which is kind of obsessing me.

I agree with you that Holly Taylor is a beautiful young woman, and she's doing a good job with the material she's been given. I just think the writing for her character has become very one-note and not very interesting. 

Man, I miss Martha. I realized a few seasons ago that the Martha/Clark scenes had become some of my favorite moments of the show. Even Philip perked up around Martha, though I understand he was playing a character. In contrast, he's really phoning it in with Lotus lady.  

[misstwpherecool]

This entire season seems to be a set up for the final season so people will tune in to see all those loose ends to being tied up.

Gloom & doom speculation but for a few minutes I thought Paige might attempt suicide and would stop P's final meet with Gabriel which would set off other issues.  I also think Paige thinks someone is lying about the wheat. And why bring Paige to meet Gabriel and she's smart enough to remember or figure the location. I get sooner or later they have to try to officially 'recruit' her but wouldn't neutral location be better/safer?

What's with Aderholt's and E's attitude towards their partner. E talks to P in a lecturing tone in the wheat field and Aderholt gets miffed at Stan while trying to sell defection to the women. Beginnings of an end or two?

Philip being a spy can smell spy stink on Stan's new girlfriend. And he's calling it like he sees it by asking Gabe. I'd be worried too because it makes things riskier for them regardless of side. Still think she's a US plant. Not sure wether she's there to get evidence or keep him in check.

[Bannon]

40 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

With the stolen plant they have immediate access and can start to reverse-engineer it or study it or whatever they need to do to make it for themselves. We don't know how close to being made available to the public the wheat is.

 

If an American company is going to expend all the resources to perfect the plant, and then sell it, why would the Soviets bother with all that? Just acquire it from a third party when it is ready for mass cultivation, and be done with it. Yes, you'll be infringing on patents, but so what? The Soviets really didn't make any effort to adhere to patent law until 1990 or so, and frankly, patents on plants to this day really aren't easy to enforce outside of the United States. The entire wheat arc is pretty nonsensical.

[stagmania]

41 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I loved, loved, loved MR's face at the very end when Gabriel told Philip that he was right about Paige not being KGB material.

31 minutes ago, chick binewski said:

Gabriel relayed a much different review of Paige to Philip than he did to Elizabeth. Was that to warn Philip or to test him? To keep Elizabeth on course?

I've been thinking about this a lot. It seemed almost cruel of Gabriel to say that to Philip on his way out the door, now that it's far too late to help the situation. They were forced to bring her in to the spy circle despite Philip knowing she couldn't handle it, and now Gabriel is basically telling him he was right and Paige will be destroyed, and oh btw I'm leaving so good luck handling that with even less support. And him lying to Elizabeth and putting a pretty spin on it just makes it that much harder for Philip, because Elizabeth clearly wants to believe Paige will be okay and all of this can work out, so she'll be even less likely to be receptive to Philip's concerns. A spiteful move from Gabriel.

[Bannon]

22 minutes ago, topanga said:

I agree with you that Holly Taylor is a beautiful young woman, and she's doing a good job with the material she's been given. I just think the writing for her character has become very one-note and not very interesting. 

Man, I miss Martha. I realized a few seasons ago that the Martha/Clark scenes had become some of my favorite moments of the show. Even Philip perked up around Martha, though I understand he was playing a character. In contrast, he's really phoning it in with Lotus lady.  

The Martha arc was the heart of this show, from the beginning, until last season, and the work of Rhys and (spectacularly, in my opinion) Alison Wright  was the best reason to watch. Losing this arc really diminished the show. 

[sistermagpie]

23 minutes ago, misstwpherecool said:

And why bring Paige to meet Gabriel and she's smart enough to remember or figure the location. I get sooner or later they have to try to officially 'recruit' her but wouldn't neutral location be better/safer?

Paige knows the location of two of the top Directorate-S agents. The safe house is relatively unimportant and made more sense for a meeting.

 

24 minutes ago, misstwpherecool said:

What's with Aderholt's and E's attitude towards their partner. E talks to P in a lecturing tone in the wheat field

Oh, I don't think Philip took that as lecturing. He was nudging her to his pov and she was drawing the line about how she does things differently. She always answers him in that tone when he tries to do that. He's gently teasing/encouraging, she's firm.

 

49 minutes ago, chick binewski said:

3 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

But given he is leaving the show somewhat suddenly and there is no explanation, I would have to guess something bad is happening to him or with him. I sure do hope not because he is a great actor and has helped make some mediocre movies really great. But it seems to me these events forbode something very bad about to happen to him.

I appreciate this show doesn't go for the dramatic boom every time but I have some trouble believing we've seen the last of Gabriel , possibly because I'm just such a fan of Langella in this role.

There's no reason to think he's leaving the show suddenly with no explanation. Characters come and go completely on this show all the time. It doesn't really require an explanation in the press. But it's true he might show up again--particularly if they decide to put in some other Mischa or Martha scene to show Gabriel wanting to make some amends or something.

[Ellaria]

30 minutes ago, Bannon said:

The Martha arc was the heart of this show, from the beginning, until last season, and the work of Rhys and (spectacularly, in my opinion) Alison Wright  was the best reason to watch. Losing this arc really diminished the show. 

I didn't appreciate the Martha Arc while it was going on. (I think that Phillip's ever-present wig and glasses distracted me.)  But now that she is gone, I miss what she brought to the show. P & E have used many innocents to further their objectives but Martha was an extreme example. My heart still hurts for her even though she was a willing participant.

I'm still trying to figure out Renee's purpose...assuming that she has a purpose beyond being Stan's cool GF.  To date, we have Gabriel's claim that she isn't KGB. She really isn't integral to the plot and she has proven to be little more than a sounding board for Stan. Yet, she receives a decent amount of screen time. Why? Because she is Laurie Holden? Or because its more fuel for P's paranoia and guilt?

Edited April 19, 2017 by Ellaria Sand

[DoubleUTeeEff]

I am amazed so many people found this episode dull much less the whole season so far.  I find the interaction between the characters endlessly fascinating. Gabriel and Elizabeth. Gabriel and Philip. Philip and Elizabeth. Stan and his new flame. Philip and Deirdre. Paige is the weakest link but I think that's mainly because everyone else is acting at such a high level.  I even find digging a hole for 10 minutes on this show intriguing. I do agree that plot-wise we are on a slow build but I enjoy that as well.  I think they need time to set up the blocks before they can knock them down.  It will make for a better pay off later.  One of the reasons it was so exciting when Martha was burned was the fact that she had been in the background for a couple of seasons before becoming to the forefront and there were many tense episodes like where they found the pen, etc. before they got to the big exciting finale of that particular story.  I definitely do not need every story to be in every episode, either.  I think the season and the series will stand as a whole and not every episode has to do that. 

I thought the twist that Ben was seeing another/other woman/women was interesting.  I like how Philip told Elizabeth that it was OK to care and she said not for her it wasn't.  I took that to mean that they were acknowledging that Philip had cared about Martha.  Also, I think Elizabeth was questioning her spy abilities, since she said "I thought he wasn't like that." As in, I should have known he was not a one woman man.

Now that Philip has confronted Gabriel about Stan's girlfriend possibly being one of them, I am really curious to see which way they go with that.

[misstwpherecool]

4 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I didn't appreciate the Martha Arc while it was going on. (I think that Phillip's ever-present wig and glasses distracted me.)  But now that she is gone, I miss what she brought to the show. P & E have used many innocents to further their objectives but Martha was an extreme example. My heart still hurts for her even though she was a willing participant.

I'm still trying to figure out Renee's purpose...assuming that she has a purpose beyond being Stan's cool GF.  To date, we have Gabriel's claim that she isn't KGB. She really isn't integral to the plot and she has proven to be little more than a sounding board for Stan. Yet, she receives a decent amount of screen time. Why? Because she is Laurie Holden? Or because its more food for P's paranoia and guilt?

I think she's a US agent. When the show started Stan had just finished a supremacist undercover assignment and I think they were implying some stuff happened there. Then Stan pushed the limits when he joined counter intelligence. I think they knew Stan killed the centre guy even before he extorted the big boss with the murder and press. Keep in mind his first partner was killed(by P), had a supposed undercover affair with a Russian spy(Nina) and somehow developed enough of a relationship with Oleg who gave Stan the tip. Is Stan really that 'good' or .....

Also keep in mind I think in season 1 and 2 it came out the DOD was running their own op on the Star Wars defense scientists. I think something similar is going on here.

[dubbel zout]

40 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Just acquire it from a third party when it is ready for mass cultivation

They don't know when the wheat will be ready for mass cultivation, and they don't want to wait.

10 minutes ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

Also, I think Elizabeth was questioning her spy abilities, since she said "I thought he wasn't like that." As in, I should have known he was not a one woman man.

I agree. Elizabeth was annoyed on two fronts, at least, with Ben. Hee.

10 minutes ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

Now that Philip has confronted Gabriel about Stan's girlfriend possibly being one of them, I am really curious to see which way they go with that.

That exchange made me wonder if Philip would believe Gabriel regardless of what he said. 

[Bannon]

9 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I didn't appreciate the Martha Arc while it was going on. (I think that Phillip's ever-present wig and glasses distracted me.)  But now that she is gone, I miss what she brought to the show. P & E have used many innocents to further their objectives but Martha was an extreme example. My heart still hurts for her even though she was a willing participant.

I'm still trying to figure out Renee's purpose...assuming that she has a purpose beyond being Stan's cool GF.  To date, we have Gabriel's claim that she isn't KGB. She really isn't integral to the plot and she has proven to be little more than a sounding board for Stan. Yet, she receives a decent amount of screen time. Why? Because she is Laurie Holden? Or because its more food for P's paranoia and guilt?

Renee better have a larger purpose than being the cool gf sounding board, because those have not exactly been scenes with scintillating dialogue. It'd be better if she is being handled by Claudia, without Gabriel's knowledge. It would add to the potential conflict that looms between Claudia and P/E, which could add a lot to the show, if executed better than Stan's conflict with the FBI.

What made the Martha arc tremendous was Wright just nailing the combination of a hyper-competent person, who normally strictly adheres to protocol, having this tragic vulnerability of extreme loneliness, which Phillip/KGB used to destroy her life, as they exploit her for their purposes of espionage. It was heartbreaking, and executed brilliantly.

5 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

They don't know when the wheat will be ready for mass cultivation, and they don't want to wait.

 

There isn't any reason to not wait, in my opinion, unless thay have some reason to think they are better at agricultural science than American agricultural companies. Given the relative agricultural production of the two societies, this is dubious in the extreme.

We aren't going to agree. That's o.k.

[DoubleUTeeEff]

11 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

That exchange made me wonder if Philip would believe Gabriel regardless of what he said. 

Yes, is Philip being paranoid?  If he is, it wouldn't matter what Gabriel said.  Gabriel doesn't seem to know who is paranoid.  He first asks Philip if he's being serious, almost incredulous that Philip would ask that question.  Then he acknowledges that they might not tell him in case Philip did ask, which suggests that he wouldn't be surprised to find out that she was one of them.

Edited April 19, 2017 by DoubleUTeeEff
wrong word

[benteen]

1 hour ago, misstwpherecool said:

Gloom & doom speculation but for a few minutes I thought Paige might attempt suicide and would stop P's final meet with Gabriel which would set off other issues. 

I actually thought when Paige went into her room and sat down after breaking up with Matthew that she was going to commit suicide.

Edited April 19, 2017 by benteen

[Bannon]

12 minutes ago, benteen said:

I actually thought when Paige went into her room and sat down after breaking up with Matthew that she was going to commit suicide.

At some point, that would be a very credible, and devastating, event in this story that is near the end. It would take nearly unprecedented courage (in the context of all of heavily serialized television drama) for the writers to take this path, of a young person that the audience has invested in for years killing herself, and execute it well. I'm not rooting for this, because it would be way, way, too sad for me (and I like sad stories), but if they do take that path, and pull it off, I'll have a ton of respect for the writers.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Bannon
typo

[vb68]

3 hours ago, stagmania said:

9 hours ago, vb68 said:

But I thought Elizabeth and Philip were total fucking hypocrites for not telling her any revised story about the wheat. So much for their high idealism.

It would be pretty stupid of them to tell her that right now. They're trying to get her stable again; why introduce something that would send her spinning into more doubts and that they themselves have no good answer for? Helping Paige keep it together so the family can survive is more important than inviting her to grapple with the hard truths they face.

That's a fair point, but it really doesn't change the fact in my mind that they are big ol hypocrites. They were so smugly self-satisfied in telling her because of the righteousness of it all.  They could still spin it that they got new information and it's going to make everyone's lives back home so much better.  I think it's that they don't want to admit they were wrong (especially Elizabeth, of course) at least as much as helping Paige keep it together. Probably more, but I can agree to disagree.

 

'

2 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Neither's an easy mark for giving up classified info, probably.

I like seeing Philip, especially, really having to work to get information. He can't just dazzle the woman sexually and get her to tell him everything. (That's a simplification, of course.)

And he's completely lost, frustrated, and fumbling. He has no idea what to do with this lady. As soon as sex is over, her wall goes back up . If he gets anything, it's going to be straight up luck. She seems to be all about the number crunching. Philip may say he's good at math, but I don't know if he has it in him to forge a connection on that alone.

And I disagree that Elizabeth was really doubting her spycraft so much as everything is just black and white with her. When she thought Ben wanted to poison the food supply, he was very bad. When she found out he actually wants to feed the world, he's very good.  There's no grey. And  even though it was work, I suspect the sex was better than she wanted to admit.   

Edited April 19, 2017 by vb68

[topanga]

10 minutes ago, benteen said:

I actually thought when Paige went into her room and sat down after breaking up with Matthew that she was going to commit suicide.

This. The poor girl can barely form coherent sentences. Are P & E such tough Soviets that they aren't worried about their daughter's mental health?

Then again, it might be generational issue as well. I recently found out that one of my cousins tried to commit suicide in the late '70s, when she was 13. I'm not sure what she did, but she was hospitalized--for medical reasons, not psychiatric.  But most adults, including her mother and her doctors, thought she was just "acting out." And she had no follow up after being discharged from the hospital. 

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, vb68 said:

That's a fair point, but it really doesn't change the fact in my mind that they are big ol hypocrites. They were so smugly satisfied in telling her because of the righteousness of it all.  They could still spin it that they got new information and it's going to make everyone's lives back home so much better.  I think it's that they don't want to admit they were wrong (especially Elizabeth, of course) at least as much as helping Paige keep it together. Probably more, but I can agree to disagree.

 

'

And he's completely lost, frustrated, and fumbling. He has no idea what to do with this lady. as soon as sex is over,  her wall goes back up . If he gets anything, it's going to be straight up luck. She seems to be all about the number crunching. Philip may say he's good at math, but I don't know if he has it in him to forge a connection on that alone.

And I disagree that Elizabeth was really doubting her spycraft so much as everything is just black and white with her. When she thought Ben wanted to poison the food supply, he was very bad. When she found out he actually wants to feed the world, he's very good.  There's no grey. And  even though it was work, I suspect the sex was better than she wanted to admit.   

There was an interesting hint from E, in her wheat field conversation with P, that if she allowed herself to admit that she can care about the people she exploits, her entire meticulously constructed ideological fortress might collapse. If that was deliberate by the writers, and pursued skillfully, next season could be a lot better than this season. Here's hoping.

[sistermagpie]

Just was reminded elsewhere of an interesting point in the Paige/Matthew scene, where Matthew claims he's not like his father, that he'll "fix" whatever he did wrong. But one thing Paige says to him is something like "Aren't you going to fight?" Like even though she's breaking up with him she still is disappointed that he's not a fighter and doesn't fight for the relationship, proving that she's right that there's not really much there besides making out. That he's acting, really, a lot like Stan according to Sandra, just wanting to say whatever he needs to say to get things back to normal instead of really being invested in her personally. Which Paige is attracted to and has seen modeled with her parents, a relationship she knows is good. Her pushing him away was not only a sort of funny side-effect of her self-defense classes, but a signal that Paige is probably made of more aggressive stuff than Matthew. 

Which is maybe part of the reason I don't think there's ever been any hint that Paige is suicidal. Paige was driven to save the world before she found out about her parents. She's confused now about what the right way to do it is, but she's still always liked the idea. Of course it's harder when it comes with real sacrifice instead of just striking poses about how everyone else should make sacrifices, but I don't think this stuff is impossible for her. She's not a girl giving up a guy that made her happy. If her parents weren't spies she would have eventually dumped him for not sharing that drive. What sucks for her is that her parents are the heroes here, but they're not heroes she can understand and easily follow. 

[qtpye]

3 minutes ago, vb68 said:

And I disagree that Elizabeth was really doubting her spycraft so much as everything is just black and white with her. When she thought Ben wanted to poison the food supply, he was very bad. When she found out he actually wants to feed the world, he's very good.  There's no grey. And  even though it was work, I suspect the sex was better than she wanted to admit

Yeah, we all know Phillip has been madly in love with Elizabeth since the day he first laid eyes on her.  E has had to ease herself into the relationship with Phillip to the loving place they are now.

I think she is angry because someone fooled her and her ego was a tiny bit bruised that the guy was maybe not as into her as she thought.

3 minutes ago, Bannon said:

There was an interesting hint from E, in her wheat field conversation with P, that if she allowed herself to admit that she can care about the people she exploits, her entire meticulously constructed ideological fortress might collapse. If that was deliberate by the writers, and pursued skillfully, next season could be a lot better than this season. Here's hoping.

This is a great point.  E has to objectify her marks, perhaps strip them of their humanity in order to do the terrible things she does for her country and cause  This is how she can live with herself.

[misstwpherecool]

14 minutes ago, Bannon said:

At some point, that would be a very credible, and devastating, event in this story that is near the end. It would take nearly unprecedented courage (in the context of all of heavily serialized television drama) for the writers to take this path, of a young person that the audience has invested in for years killing herself, and execute it well. I'm not rooting for this, because it would be way, way, too sad for me (and I like sad stories), but if they do take that path, and pull it off, I'll have a ton of respect for the writers.

If not suicide drugs or she goes full on religion which is in conflict with Soviet thinking. Also Matthew might do something as well. He didn't seem to take it well. He seems to be a more expendable character.

[Chaos Theory]

I think this season for better and worse is one long pendulant episode.  We all know the end is near and are coiled waiting for "something" big to happen but my guess is that it won't happen until the last few episodes.  

So enjoy the anticipation.   

[vb68]

18 minutes ago, topanga said:

Are P & E such tough Soviets that they aren't worried about their daughter's mental health?

I'm sure they are, Philip probably more so after that last conversation with Gabriel. But with regard to her breakup with Matthew, they were both so relieved on their end that they weren't so focused on her emotional toll over it. I mean, they knew it was hard, but they just think it's normal teenage stuff.   

And I forgot to say before that I agree Matthew is fugly. The hair is ridiculous, and slug is the perfect word for him. He doesn't need to look like he  belongs on the cover of tiger beat, but it was a complete mystery on why she liked him other than the fact that he lives right across the street.

Edited April 19, 2017 by vb68

[Quando]

Quote

Sloppy writing abounds. A company which is developing wheat for the international market suddenly places razor wire and armed guards around a greenhouse, because somebody who works for yet another company, in another city, raising insects, has disappeared? Huh? 

If the company puts razor wire and guards around the plants in the greenhouse, then why is there a whole field of the stuff growing out in the open down in Mississippi where anyone who wants to can just come and dig up a sample?  Now that I think of it, why are Elizabeth and Phillip so sure that what was growing in that field was actually the super wheat?  From what I recall, all P&E knew was that (i) Mr. Tai-Chi was taking a business trip to Mississippi, and (ii) Ms. Lotus had some shipping invoices to places in Mississippi.  How did they get from that to knowing that these particular crops growing in this particular field are the super wheat?  The fact that there is no guard at the field, and not even a fence or a "no trespassing" sign, makes it seem more likely that whatever was growing out there was not the real super wheat, which would be very commercially valuable to the company.  Maybe is was just one of many experimental strains they were testing.

ALSO, during the uncomfortable scene between Paige and Pastor Groovyhair on the couch, did anyone else get an icky feeling that the Pastor was about to make a pass at Paige?

[Bannon]

6 minutes ago, Quando said:

If the company puts razor wire and guards around the plants in the greenhouse, then why is there a whole field of the stuff growing out in the open down in Mississippi where anyone who wants to can just come and dig up a sample?  Now that I think of it, why are Elizabeth and Phillip so sure that what was growing in that field was actually the super wheat?  From what I recall, all P&E knew was that (i) Mr. Tai-Chi was taking a business trip to Mississippi, and (ii) Ms. Lotus had some shipping invoices to places in Mississippi.  How did they get from that to knowing that these particular crops growing in this particular field are the super wheat?  The fact that there is no guard at the field, and not even a fence or a "no trespassing" sign, makes it seem more likely that whatever was growing out there was not the real super wheat, which would be very commercially valuable to the company.  Maybe is was just one of many experimental strains they were testing.

ALSO, during the uncomfortable scene between Paige and Pastor Groovyhair on the couch, did anyone else get an icky feeling that the Pastor was about to make a pass at Paige?

I just don't understand why this was written so sloppily.

[stagmania]

27 minutes ago, topanga said:

This. The poor girl can barely form coherent sentences. Are P & E such tough Soviets that they aren't worried about their daughter's mental health?

The entire Paige plot this season is about them being worried about her mental health.

[Eulipian 5k]

29 minutes ago, Bannon said:

39 minutes ago, benteen said:

actually thought when Paige went into her room and sat down after breaking up with Matthew that she was going to commit suicide.

At some point, that would be a very credible, and devastating, event in this story that is near the end.

But then you would have hordes of Internet "Shakespeares" complaining of lazy and trite writing. Matthew and Paige are each other's first crush from when they were kids in the same neighborhood. Millions of kids survive that ordeal without committing suicide.

[Bannon]

Just now, Eulipian 5k said:

But then you would have hordes of Internet "Shakespeares" complaining of lazy and trite writing. Matthew and Paige are each other's first crush from when they were kids in the same neighborhood. Millions of kids survive that ordeal without committing suicide.

I said a few weeks ago that more than one character was a credible candidate for suicide, and I continue to think it the case. It isn't the end of a teenage romance that would be the facilitating event for Paige, of course, but rather the sense of hopelessness and despair that comes from Paige's realization that hers will be a life spent in emotional isolation from other people, due to the requirement that she keep her secrets from others.

Matthew doesn't have that aspect to his life, so a suicide by him probably would be a bit trite.

10 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

She would absolutely shit herself if she knew all of the horrible deaths her parents have caused.  Those constipated eyebrows of hers would be in a whole other time zone just at thought of it.

I am not sure what Gabriel was saying.  Perhaps I misunderstood him, but when Philip and Elizabeth were both with him, he basically approved of Paige joining in on the family spy stuff.  But, at the end of the episode when he was alone with Philip, he basically said that Paige isn't cut out for the family spy stuff.  I am not sure why he couldn't sat that in front of Elizabeth.

I find it credible that Gabriel is a man torn, at the end of his life, as to the value of his life, and thus his positions shift with some frequency. I thought his final scene, conversing with Phillip, was one of the episode's few good ones.

[sistermagpie]

10 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I am not sure what Gabriel was saying.  Perhaps I misunderstood him, but when Philip and Elizabeth were both with him, he basically approved of Paige joining in on the family spy stuff.  But, at the end of the episode when he was alone with Philip, he was basically said that Paige isn't cut out for the family spy stuff.  I am not sure why he couldn't sat that in front of Elizabeth.

I think he was doing different things in each scene. When he met with them he was strengthening the bond between parents and child. Sure that also talked up the cause, but he wasn't lying. That really is what Philip and Elizabeth signed up to do (even if Elizabeth was ready to beam at Paige and accept the compliment while Philip wasn't). He's making her proud of her parents. In the scene with Elizabeth he assured her that she'd raised a child according to her values after all--Paige wasn't not some spoiled American brat, which Elizabeth would have feared. Then with Philip he admitted that this life wasn't anything he'd want to put his own child into, Philip had been right all along. 

Of course, it's still a bit chicken shit to say that to Philip and let him be the dissident as usual instead of saying it to Elizabeth, and I'm not sure why he didn't do that. But I don't think he was being completely contradictory. The only scene where he was being strictly business in his words was, imo, when he told Philip to keep her out of the life. The other stuff was all a mixture, talking about the work as a means of talking about family and vice versa. I think Gabriel genuinely wants Paige to see her parents for their good intentions, but in doing so he doesn't want her to sign on to the job.

[Eulipian 5k]

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

but rather the sense of hopelessness and despair that comes from Paige's realization that hers will be a life spent in emotional isolation from other people, due to the requirement that she keep her secrets from others.

Maybe Dad could tell her how Martha made out living that kind of life, LOL. " and now she lives in a major capital city shopping in exclusive stores"

[Chaos Theory]

I think people are waaaaaaaaaaaaaay to hard on Paige.  She is an American girl told she is not an American.  A good girl trying to see in the dark of her parents lives.  Anyone who thought she would kill herself after breaking up with Mathew doesn't understand Paige at all.  If anything I thought the exact opposite.  She would tell her mother that she had been right and that her feelings had been more about the new spy life and she had confused the new exitement of spying.  I thought it would be her trying to go deeper in just as Gabriel was telling Philip to get her out.