Zach and Tori

[Quof]

What will they do when he is able to read the banners that say Little People of America at the conferences? or when he is participating in Dwarf Athletic Association events? 

Edited March 26 by Quof

[65mickey]

I don't know about Washington but in GA if the parents are not separated and the children are living with them unfortunately the grandparents have no rights.  I agree that what Zach and Tori have done is blackmail, no farm no grandchildren. They are despicable.  Grandparents are very important in the lives of children. It is sad what Tori and Zach have done. But they have shown their true selves. 

[Absolom]

Matt is not denied access to his grandchildren. He does, however, have to now be the one to make the drive. It has never been as simple as blackmail of sell us the farm or never see your grandchildren. As reported very hurtful words were exchanged. Probably both sides have repair work to do if they want a relationship. Matt isn’t someone who usually understands that. If a parent feels someone is toxic to them or their children, it is responsible to limit contact.  I did. That said, Tori does hold a grudge easily and tightly.

[Dibs]

As pointed out many times, Grandpa and Cha-Cha weren't "toxic" when they were practically raising those kids while ZiT still thought they had a shot at the farm.  Did they suddenly change into different and horrible people at their advanced ages?  Don't think so.

Requiring Matt - who is still working full-time, is disabled, and lives half the year out of state - to do all the driving, and it's a long annoying drive according to Chris, while (apparently) barring his soon-to-be wife from those outings isn't "encouraging a grandparental relationship" in the mind of any reasonable person.

Oh, while continuing to trash-talk him on TV and I'm sure at home.

And yes, we all know that Tori holds a grudge...  She, Zach, and many of their generation ALSO take offense at inconvenient truths.

I have no doubt that this is ALL that happened in that meeting.

 

[Dibs]

I should add, denying his children access to that amazing farm on which he grew up and making them make do with a mud pit and a drainage ditch is ALSO abusive on Zach's part.

And as Jackson grows up and begins to grapple with his dwarfism, he could really use a POSITIVE role model like Matt who actually succeeds in life.

Unlike Zach.

Edited March 26 by Dibs

[Absolom]

We obviously see many things very differently. 

[pdlinda]

2 hours ago, Dibs said:

And as Jackson grows up and begins to grapple with his dwarfism, he could really use a POSITIVE role model like Matt who actually succeeds in life.

The most prominent feature of Jackson's physical limitation due to his dwarfism are his LEGS!  At his age it's apparent how greatly deformed they are, and although he's shown to be physically active (like in sports) it's very unsettling seeing how he has to maneuver his gait just to stay ambulatory. 

I wonder what and when this deformity can be addressed surgically.  I believe I recall Tori saying it would be YEARS before some type of major surgery would be performed to straighten Jackson's legs.  

I believe that his deformed legs are more of a detriment to his self esteem and "mainstreaming" with kids in his grade that his dwarfism is at this time.

[65mickey]

8 hours ago, Absolom said:

Probably both sides have repair work to do if they want a relationship. Matt isn’t someone who usually understands that. If a parent feels someone is toxic to them or their children, it is responsible to limit contact.  I did. That said, Tori does hold a grudge easily and tightly.

As I remember Matt reached out numerous times to Zach and Tori. I specifically remember Matt driving up to Zach's  house to deliver Christmas presents and his son didn't even have the decency to invite Matt to come into the house. He had to stand outside.  I don't remember Zach and Tori at anytime reaching out and trying to mend the rift. They didn't get what they felt they were entitled to so they up and moved away like petulant children. As far as Matt being toxic and the contact with the children needing to be limited I can't imagine how he was toxic.  I have a feeling if it weren't for Tori, Zach would be in a much better place with his father and Caryn.

Edited March 26 by 65mickey

[pdlinda]

1 minute ago, 65mickey said:

I have a feeling if it weren't for Tori, Zach would be in a much better place with his father and Caryn.

No question that Tori "rules the roost" ESPECIALLY NOW when her social media presence is so successful she essentially must provide a large part of their income. 

Tori is in control of most everything in the household and Zach seems content riding around the property with his various "farm vehicles" engaging in different "projects."  Those "projects" (especially in today's economy) are costly and I believe (pure speculation) that he has income from investments (he was on the show for over 20 yrs) that allows him to pay for that himself.

All in all I think ZiT was wise to jump off the showbiz bandwagon and raise their children in a relatively private way.  Tori has "reels" on Instagram almost every day showing the kids "in action", but each video is less than a minute long.  She also shills all her various sponsored products.

[babyhouseman]

6 hours ago, Dibs said:

should add, denying his children access to that amazing farm on which he grew up and making them make do with a mud pit and a drainage ditch is ALSO abusive on Zach's part.

I know. Zack acted like his backyard was just like the farm. I don't think so.

[Dibs]

From what I understand, the decision to leave the show wasn't ZiT's.

8 hours ago, Absolom said:

If a parent feels someone is toxic to them or their children, it is responsible to limit contact.  I did.

And this may be why, as you said, "we see things differently."  I notice that Amy's biggest supporters are women who are also divorced.

Agree to disagree!

Edited March 26 by Dibs

[Foghorn Leghorn]

The only interest I have in watching this show is Jackson, Lilah and Josiah.   I FF Matt and Caryn and most of Amy and Chris.

[AZChristian]

I hadn't watched the show for several years, but recently started again.

Wow.  Zach and Tori sure set the bar low on expectations for Lilah.  "She'll cry and freak out at the sleep study."  "I doubt she's going to go out on stage for the recital."

A wise woman once told me, "Your kids will behave like they hear you tell others they will behave."

[Dibs]

51 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

I hadn't watched the show for several years, but recently started again.

Wow.  Zach and Tori sure set the bar low on expectations for Lilah.  "She'll cry and freak out at the sleep study."  "I doubt she's going to go out on stage for the recital."

A wise woman once told me, "Your kids will behave like they hear you tell others they will behave."

And then the laughter when asked to describe Lilah as a dancer.  "Clunky, slow, clueless, hahaha!!"  Can someone please take these three children away from those two heartless idiots?

[Cementhead]

On 3/26/2024 at 11:52 AM, Dibs said:

I should add, denying his children access to that amazing farm on which he grew up and making them make do with a mud pit and a drainage ditch is ALSO abusive on Zach's part.

 

18 hours ago, babyhouseman said:

I know. Zack acted like his backyard was just like the farm. I don't think so.

The saddest part of this episode for me was when Zach said that Jackson doesn't miss the farm at all -- because I didn't believe him and I don't see how he could possibly believe that either.  I think trying to convince himself that this is true is harder than trying to convince us viewers.  He knows that Jackson misses the farm and no amount of "funning up" his janky backyard is going to change that.  Zach's sadness and regret is palpable in that moment. 

[pdlinda]

7 minutes ago, Cementhead said:

 

The saddest part of this episode for me was when Zach said that Jackson doesn't miss the farm at all -- because I didn't believe him and I don't see how he could possibly believe that either.  I think trying to convince himself that this is true is harder than trying to convince us viewers.  He knows that Jackson misses the farm and no amount of "funning up" his janky backyard is going to change that.  Zach's sadness and regret is palpable in that moment. 

This episode and the points made by posters on this thread make me wonder why ZiT (both separately, or as a couple) aren't in therapy BEFORE THEIR KIDS GET ANY OLDER! 

They certainly could use some professional help in responding to challenges their children are facing now and in the future.  Hopefully, now that they are no longer on the show, someone might suggest this healthy option to them (as I doubt they would think of it themselves).

[Dibs]

Whatever anyone suggests, ZiT will take offense (again) and refuse to listen.  Amy said she learned early on not to offer advice to Tori despite her experience both as a LP and mother of one.  Caryn must be dying a thousand deaths watching poor little Jackson struggle to navigate both the soccer field and that bog they call a backyard on those twisted legs.  When will they admit that he needs surgery?  And Lilah, too, for her eyes (and speech therapy)?  And Josiah's going to walk soon.  Denial: not just a river in Egypt!

Edited March 27 by Dibs

[BAForever]

Show breaks my heart. Early episodes were a hoot- hoarder Amy in the trashed house, dreamer-schemer Matt, smart Molly, lazy AF Zach and Jer and invisible Jacob. Harmless people navigating their unique lives.

Now it's just sad. To deny kids their grandparents and loving grandparents their grandkids is awful and unnecessary. 

Another reality show that destroys a family. 

[ginger90]

27 minutes ago, Dibs said:

When will they admit that he needs surgery? 

He had surgery which is not an instant fix. 

[AZChristian]

In my mind, I now call them Harry and Meghan Roloff.  Slam his father, and refuse to take advice from people who know how to navigate the new terrains in their lives.

[SongbirdHollow]

The latest episode is so sad. Tori, Lilah’s tights are too big and they are bunching up in her dance shoes, you idiot! The way they all treat Lilah is horrific! And the poor child can’t understand why. It’s heartbreaking. 
 

Caryn must have really said something heinous at the negotiation meeting to have them cut her, and by extension, Matt, out of their lives. I can’t imagine what it was because she is generally good about not rocking the boat. I think Amy knows exactly what she said because she keeps getting more bitter every episode. 

[Cementhead]

39 minutes ago, SongbirdHollow said:

The latest episode is so sad. Tori, Lilah’s tights are too big and they are bunching up in her dance shoes, you idiot! The way they all treat Lilah is horrific! And the poor child can’t understand why. It’s heartbreaking. 

My husband was watching this with me last night for the very first time and he mentioned how they were treating Lilah.  I told him if he thought that was bad, he should have been around when Tori ran Lilah and her jeep into the tree and then laughed her fool head off about it.  I also pointed out the subtitles that TLC has to put up when Lilah speaks because her parents missed the boat on providing her access to early speech therapy.  I tried to explain to him how Jackson owns everything but the episode was very Jackson-light so he didn't quite get it. 

[Dibs]

1 hour ago, SongbirdHollow said:

Caryn must have really said something heinous at the negotiation meeting to have them cut her, and by extension, Matt, out of their lives. I can’t imagine what it was because she is generally good about not rocking the boat.

I'm sure she said something like "Matt shouldn't have to continue running the farm after you buy it" or "that's a ridiculously low offer" or "you don't bargain with your children" or some other statement that is simply TRUE.  ZiT has demonstrated that they're incapable of accepting constructive criticism or even helpful advice (such as when Amy offered some regarding their children's dwarfism).  Caryn is the embodiment of kindness and diplomacy; can you seriously picture her saying something "heinous," especially to two people she -- at the time, anyway -- loved and cared for?  I can't.

They really need to tell their side of this and/or sue for defamation.

Even more worrisome than ZiT lacking the "abilities" to care for three special-needs children is their refusal to learn anything from anyone else.

3 hours ago, ginger90 said:

He had surgery which is not an instant fix. 

He had a very minor, "less invasive" type of surgery which may or may not help; they said so at the time.  It sounded to me like the doctor recommended the more invasive form, but Tori ixnayed it.  As you'll recall, only one parent was allowed in the doctor's office at the time (Covid), and she insisted on going even though Zach had the experience with that surgery.  He then just believed whatever she relayed to him.

Edited March 27 by Dibs

[babyhouseman]

I saw where if you follow Tori's instagram which I won't, Lilah had a tough time at the beginning of dance class crying and not wanting to be there. But they didn't have to beat her over the head with it. 

[BAForever]

Said it before:

Jackson- adored

Lilah- ignored

SiSi- TBD

Tori- ditch the tights or cut them off at ankles. Kids can wear ballet slippers with no socks. 

Also, those girls in Lilah's class looked older than Lilah- two looked 5 or 6.

Edited March 28 by BAForever

[pdlinda]

2 hours ago, Cementhead said:

I also pointed out the subtitles that TLC has to put up when Lilah speaks because her parents missed the boat on providing her access to early speech therapy.

Jackson also requires subtitles when he speaks. 

His terribly deformed legs are always a subject of viewer comments, as well. 

I know that Jackson had a minor surgery on his legs but the results are not visible and Tori and Zach are mute on the subject. 

That contrasts greatly with their derisive references to Lilah's speech delays, her eye problems and her coordination issues (if they exist) while dancing.

[65mickey]

What I recall about the farm meeting that went bad was that Caryn got the blame for ending the meeting. When things got too heated she said this is over.  And this is what Tori and Zach are so steamed about. You can bet if Caryn lost her cool and started screaming at Zach and speaking in an abusive manner Tori. would have put them on blast.  What Tori and Zach say is toxic is that they didn't get their way, so yeah Matt and Caryn are toxic. 

[Quof]

Maybe TLC can do a crossover, and have Lilah meet up with Anna Johnston at next year's LPA conference.  They would have so much to talk about, if only Lilah could talk.

[Endora]

18 hours ago, BAForever said:

Also, those girls in Lilah's class looked older than Lilah- two looked 5 or 6.

I thought the same thing.   She should be in a class with younger girls.

ZiT can say a million times they left over parenting concerns with their kids, but come on we all know they left because they are mad and bitter.  I doubt the show will go on with just the two couples.  They want to punish their family including Grandma Mimi and her room!

[Not Buyin It]

On 3/26/2024 at 5:30 AM, Quof said:

What will they do when he is able to read the banners that say Little People of America at the conferences? or when he is participating in Dwarf Athletic Association events? 

He'll learn to deal with it. As all children learn to deal with their limitations and differences. IF the adults in their lives don't f@ck them up. But I think the Roloffs are up to the challenge. I can empathize with their misgivings and wanting to delay the discomfort as long as possible. Who wants to see their kids hurting?

 

[BAForever]

3 hours ago, Not Buyin It said:

He'll learn to deal with it. As all children learn to deal with their limitations and differences. IF the adults in their lives don't f@ck them up. But I think the Roloffs are up to the challenge. I can empathize with their misgivings and wanting to delay the discomfort as long as possible. Who wants to see their kids hurting?

 

Interesting take  @Not Buyin It. I see your point, the realization of the 3 kids being little people will come and their dad is little as are half their grandparents. My concern is more that they are, IMO, in complete denial regarding Lilah's articulation and language acquisition delays. Tori's thought process is Lilah needs more time. She is incorrect, she needs intervention. I'd much rather see the family discuss, age appropriately, with Jackson now his dwarfism. Better to hear it from them than older kids. 

[Irate Panda]

Nobody wants their kids to hurt, but you’d think they’d want their kids first explanations of their stature to come from a loving voice, not a mocking one.  Although the way Tori and Zach roll depending on which child it is, maybe the kids are better off finding out on their own 🙄

[Absolom]

I think normally most families would have a discussion before kindergarten. It's usually easier on the child to make small casual references like some people are big, some average, and some small and work forward rather than one heavy duty discussion. I wouldn't leave it to the playground or the kindergarten or first grade teacher.

[woodscommaelle]

Wait, so Jackson doesn't know he's a little person?  Or, am I not following?  Do they take him out in public? Does he not see other children who are his age but taller than him? Or maybe he's at an age where they're all around his height right now?

[BAForever]

2 hours ago, woodscommaelle said:

Wait, so Jackson doesn't know he's a little person?  Or, am I not following?  Do they take him out in public? Does he not see other children who are his age but taller than him? Or maybe he's at an age where they're all around his height right now?

Of course none of us know the workings of any TV reality show family. What we are discussing @woodscommaelle is several instances this season when Zach and Tori have said things like they want to protect the kids for as long as they can and they are waiting for Jackson to bring up the subject of his size. Jackson, as a kindergartner, will probably already have some modifications in his classroom (preferential seating, a lower cubby, modified desk/table) already. He knows on certain levels that he is different from peers.

Edited March 30 by BAForever

[Foghorn Leghorn]

2 minutes ago, BAForever said:

Of course none of us know the workings of any TV reality show family. What we are discussing @woodscommaelle is several instances this season when Zach and Tori have said things like they want to protect the kids for as long as they can and they are waiting for Jackson to bring up the subject of his size. Jackson, as a kindergartner, will probably have some modifications in his classroom (preferential seating, a lower cubby, modified desk/table) already. He knows on certain levels that he is different from peers.

I wonder if Jackson has his own step stool like the kids did on The Little Couple?  Matt Roloff apparently made them and I remember Will and Zoey taking one to school when they started.  

[Dibs]

Zach specifically said that he's not going to "make a big deal of it" (in other words, he's avoiding the subject) with Jackson.  IF he asks, they'll address it.  Except that Jackson already DID bring it up when he said he was sitting out because the other kids told him he was "too short" to play soccer, and they DIDN'T address it.  ZiT couldn't even tell Zach's own father that he was moving - Jackson had to do it for them - so I'm not surprised they can't handle this, either!

As for the meeting, that's probably it; Caryn put an end to the discussion when things got heated, and they probably think the farm was within their grasp, so it's all her fault!  You know if she'd said anything really offensive (which would've been very out of character for her), they'd have shouted it from the rooftops.  Instead, they can do more damage just ACTING AS IF she did.  After all, they wouldn't act like that if she hadn't, right?  Sneaky, but effective!

Edited April 1 by Dibs

[Chalby]

I recognize that Tori and Zach want nothing to do with the farm or with Matt and Caryn (sp?) and given I can be guilty of carrying a grudge, I understand the bitterness regarding the farm. Zack grew up with a father who repeatedly told his family that everything he did on the farm was for his kids and their legacy. But but then he backtracked and refused to even work with his kids, even though he knew they could not afford to buy the farm. I would find it hard to move on and play nice with everything left unsaid. We know Matt does not regret selling for profit rather than for Roloff legacy.

[65mickey]

The operative word here is KIDS not Zach. Matt has 4 kids. It would have been totally unfair to the rest of his kids if he had cut a deal with Zach for the farm at a cheap price. The only fair thing to do is to put the farm, what ever is left of it at his death in his estate and have it divided equally 4 ways. Some seem to think that Zach has a claim on the farm. What about Molly , Jeremy and Jacob??

[Absolom]

Jeremy couldn't work out a deal with Matt either. He tried first.

Matt wasn't going to be selling the whole farm either so he could arrange fair inheritance possibly.

[65mickey]

But the most valuable part of the farm was what Zach felt entitled to. And because things didn't work out Zach and Tori left in a huff and have continued to ice out Matt and especially Caryn and have kept their young children away from the farm the place where Zach grew up and enjoyed for much of his life. In. my opinion Matt should tell all four of his kids that when he passes away they will receive their inheritance and not before he dies. This is what most children expect. 

[b4pjoe]

Matt has said he is leaving the farm to Amy if he still has it. Then it will be her problem.

[65mickey]

I hope he was just saying that to keep Amy off his case. He has 4 children why would he leave it to his former wife?  Makes no sense. 

[Dibs]

When Matt spoke of "the legacy of the farm," he presumably meant inheritance in the traditional sense; not a) giving it away to one child at the expense of the others NOR b) impoverishing himself while still alive and facing looming health challenges.  When he dreamed of the future, I have no doubt it was with the expectation that at least ONE if not all of the four children would be willing and able to step up and capably and responsibly run the operation; not just lounge around on it plopped on the floor watching their spawn play while Matt, in his golden years, continues to do all the heavy lifting...

I'm sure no one was more surprised AND disappointed than Matt himself that not one of them proved worthy of or even interested in manning up to the degree necessary.  Amy's coddling of her boys is partly responsible for this.  He's now between a rock and a hard place, with Amy still b*tching in his ear every step of the way.

I think it'd be funny if he left it to her to sort out.  Good luck, Amy and My Man!

BTW, I forgot to mention how much I still hate how ZiT treats that poor dog.  Once again he approaches them for pets only to be rebuffed, and that little ruffian Jackson practically runs him down.

Edited April 2 by Dibs

[b4pjoe]

18 minutes ago, 65mickey said:

I hope he was just saying that to keep Amy off his case. He has 4 children why would he leave it to his former wife?  Makes no sense. 

Makes no sense to me either but he said it and even said it was Caryn’s idea. Chris’s eyes lit up when he said it though. 🤣

[Jst2Wld]

23 hours ago, b4pjoe said:

Matt has said he is leaving the farm to Amy if he still has it. Then it will be her problem.

THAT will be interesting to watch, IF this show is still on at that point in time. Amy could become the most hated by ZiT if Amy has control. 

[Dibs]

Watching the rerun.  Lilah, excited in the toy store: "Mom!  Mom!" Tori: "Hey, look at me.  Don't yell at me."  I'm really beginning to hate ZiT.

Edited April 2 by Dibs

[LilyD]

On 3/27/2024 at 10:42 PM, Dibs said:

He had a very minor, "less invasive" type of surgery which may or may not help; they said so at the time.  It sounded to me like the doctor recommended the more invasive form, but Tori ixnayed it. 

From experience in our own family, I can tell it is not as simple as people think .

Yes, Jackson has serious issues with his legs and he will need more, preferably today.  However, Jackson is a child and he hasn't reached his full height yet. It means that the effect of such excruciatingly painful and invasive surgeries is often only temporary, or very limited over time because the bones are still growing and the body is changing (Not to mention the time it takes to fully recover.) And that means a second surgery, which is going to be a nightmare to those kids as they know exactly what is coming this time...

So yes, I fully understand why Tori dismissed this option at the time. You could wonder however, if more/other things could be done than they're currently doing... If only to limit his discomfort and possibly prevent it from getting worse.

[BAForever]

17 hours ago, LilyD said:

From experience in our own family, I can tell it is not as simple as people think .

Yes, Jackson has serious issues with his legs and he will need more, preferably today.  However, Jackson is a child and he hasn't reached his full height yet. It means that the effect of such excruciatingly painful and invasive surgeries is often only temporary, or very limited over time because the bones are still growing and the body is changing (Not to mention the time it takes to fully recover.) And that means a second surgery, which is going to be a nightmare to those kids as they know exactly what is coming this time...

So yes, I fully understand why Tori dismissed this option at the time. You could wonder however, if more/other things could be done than they're currently doing... If only to limit his discomfort and possibly prevent it from getting worse.

Thanks for insight @LilyD. For me, choosing the least invasive surgery for Jackson combined with their complete denial/neglect dealing with Lilah's speech concerns shows a possible pattern of either hoping the medical concerns aren't serious or stupidity. 

[pdlinda]

51 minutes ago, BAForever said:

Thanks for insight @LilyD. For me, choosing the least invasive surgery for Jackson combined with their complete denial/neglect dealing with Lilah's speech concerns shows a possible pattern of either hoping the medical concerns aren't serious or stupidity. 

I think one of the greatest reasons they left the show was their reluctance to share how they are raising their kids with the viewing public.

That was also the case with Jeremy and Audrey after years of both of them facing unrelenting criticism from forums like this over their parenting skills (or lack of same.

I read that Audrey's parents are wealthy and that she has income that derives from that, so they're set financially with enough income to live comfortably and don't have to solely depend on whatever they make from their personal website and online presence.

We'll see how ZiT manages financially without income from the show.