S04.E10: XXXVIII

[Bort]

Quote

Flint makes a final push to topple England; Silver seals his fate; Rackham confronts Rogers; Nassau is changed forever.

[Triskan]

This is it... the end is coming...

I am so ready and so not at the same time.

Well, see you guys on the other side, once we'll have seen it !

[Enero]

Well that was a well done series finale. I'm going to miss this show. 

I was for the most part satisfied with the way everyone ended except for Madi and Silver. 

I'll have more thoughts later. 

[Irlandesa]

I was satisfied too...Ish.  it was a good ending to the series but I also question whether some of the endings feel right or align with the book.

I have a hard time reconciling Madi ever forgiving him Silver for what he did.  His actions made sense to him.  I get it.  At the same time, it was likely the same paternalistic BS that went against everything Madi and her mother stood for. Maybe they're outnumbered and overpowered but Madi arguably had the most just cause for wanting the fight.  Needing it. He was right about Flint's rage but something else drove Madi.

Flint is my favorite character but I'm not sure Flint ending up with a happy ending quite worked.  And making out in the field? And what about when Thomas learns about Miranda and how Flint has been spending his time? Yikes, I have so many questions. That said, the whole reunion with Thomas almost felt dreamlike.  With the focus on Jack's narration and what is "true" or not, I wonder if the story LJS spun about Flint's happily ever after was just that...a story he spun to try to make Madi forgive him and Flint is actually stuck on the same island with Billy.

But I'm also thinking of Treasure Island and where people end up there.  Billy washing ashore kept that thread alive, although apparently stuck at Treasure Island?  But again, that bucolic ending for Flint doesn't quite set him up for TI.  I feel like I want that thread continued a bit more.

Jack and Anne's ending was the one I have zero qualms about.  It gave me pure joy. That was about as perfect as can be.  I loved the whimsy of Jack's narration. I loved the theme that we can't quite be sure which stories to believe and it may not matter.  I loved that he was telling this story to Mark/Mary Read who later joined them.  I loved that they were together and riding again.  I know they die later but I was thrilled that they got a happy ending for the show and one that aligned with their pasts and their futures.

The boarding scene was perfect in length.  LJS's exposition about what happened to Flint seemed like it went on forever. Toby Stephens displayed he's rightfully the star in the TI scene where he spoke of illuminating the shadows.  Riveting. 

Overall, I feel satisfied with the finale.  It played like a movie, almost.  Maybe one day I'll watch this show from the beginning.  It's just a great story.

True Confession:  I don't care how awful he is, I find Woodes Rogers unbelievably attractive on this show.  Even being read for his debts. And so is Billy who I'm still conflicted about.  If there is one person whose turn I don't think the show supported really well--it's his.  It's there but it's thin. Very thing.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Irlandesa

[Enero]

The Great:

Rogers finally going down. I've been waiting how many episodes for this to happen? And they didn't waste time making it happen within the first 30 minutes of the episode. Well done.

Silver calling Flint on his desire to watch the world burn. This has been Flint's objective for a long time and I'm so glad Silver broke it down to him.

Silver's cunning and intellect being on FULL display in this episode. I knew the info Max provided him about the island of exile would come into play again and he used that information masterfully here. Also loved the fact that he kind of came full circle in finding the cowardice cook on the ship.

Flint telling Silver that he'd one day long for the day when he could've been larger than life. This was a wonderful call forward to Silver seeking out the treasure in TI. 

Madi's anger at Silver over what she deemed as a betrayal, absolutely loved this. It would've been so easy for the writers to have her just be relieved to be alive and run back into his arms willing to live happily ever after, but she was rightfully livid over what he'd done and understandably threw his ass out (As a supporter of their relationship, that hurt. Sigh. But it needed to happen)

I thought it was beautiful that Silver patiently waited for Madi to understand. He could've easily left Maroon Island to rejoin a life of pirating being content with the fact that she was alive and safe, but he didn't. He accepted her anger and was willing to wait (forever if necessary), and did wait for her to forgive him, and she did forgive him - that is what true love is all about. After a while, I think Madi started to come down off the drug that is James Flint and as a result, she began to see that a) the war was complete BS and was never going to yield the result she believed it would and b) though Silver sabotaging the war went against what she was fighting for, the deal he got her mother and other Maroon Chiefs to accept, gave her what that ill-fated war never could, the freedom that they wanted - living without the fear of being found and destroyed by England. I have no doubt that she will continue her cause of saving those who are still in chains, but it will be done as her father did before, as an Underground Railroad of some kind. 

Loved that Mr. Featherstone became Governor of Nassau. Perfect.

Loved Jack and Anne's ending. I feared he'd meet his maker. So glad that he didn't. 

The cinematography in this episode was spectacular. Loved the shot of Madi and Silver on the hill top above the ocean, and Flint and Thomas' reunion.

The Unsatisfactory:

As a fan of the Madi/Silver union, I would've liked to have seen them end with a little bit more, a hug, a kiss, or hand hold, something that reflected a more satisfactory reunion for them. Also, I would've liked for her to answer his questioned as to whether he was enough. She did answer it of course, but just not in the way that I would've liked. 

Rogers being resigned to his fate. I would've liked to have seen him go down with a look of horror and disbelief, but no such luck. Like Flint, he really didn't care if he eventually went down, but when he did, he wanted to make sure he destroyed as many as he could who he thought was responsible for all he'd lost.

Still didn't see how or why Billy would be deathly afraid of LJS as per TI.  Perhaps that comes later when LJS is in pursuit of him?

Questionable:

Though the reunion between Flint and Thomas was lovely, I too wondered if it was real. The dreamlike ambiance of the scene, them kissing out in the open like it was nothing, and Jack's narration about stories of truth and fiction made me question it. The only reason why I believe at least some of it to be true is because Silver told it to Madi, and I don't think he'd lie to her about sending Flint to find Thomas. However, considering where Flint ends up in TI, I wonder if their happiness lasts? At some point, I imagine the weight of what he's done, the horror and destruction he caused over what he thought was Thomas dying will come back to haunt him. 

Could Flint really take Billy down after several brutal fights on Treasure Island and a sword fight with Silver? Come on. Exhaustion alone should've taken him out of that fight.  I was side eyeing that one. He was definitely benefiting from plot armor. LOL.

Interesting:

Silver stating that he was not leaving Maroon Island. Ok. How did he get that type of authority on the island? If they wanted, they could've made him leave. How was he able to just decide he was staying? 

Silver saying "the pirates are leaving the island," felt like he was speaking outside of them like it was him and then it was them, that he was no longer apart of that group, which I guess he wasn't since he was remaining on Maroon Island.

I thought this was one of the best series finales ever done. Again, I would've liked to have seen something a little more satisfactory with Madi and Silver - hence my feeling that they were the only thing I was not satisfied with, but overall it was a good ending to a great series. 

Edited April 2, 2017 by Enero

[nodorothyparker]

As far as series finales go, that was a pretty terrific one.  There's a lot of pressure to tie up all the loose ends and give everybody an ending that makes sense for them, and this one did that more than satisfactorily. 

The scenes of Flint and Silver in the forest were as phenomenal as they were tough to watch.  Flint's going on about monsters in the dark and how they'll be remembered as the dragons if they don't keep fighting to change it and you realize he truly believes that and will keep fighting forever because he has nothing else.  He is willing to watch the world burn and take everybody with him.  Silver realizes that too and sees where it will eventually end.  He got enough of a glimpse of staring into the abyss Flint's been living in in those few episodes where he believed Madi was dead or thought he wouldn't get her back to know he doesn't want to spend a lifetime setting up house there, which is all Flint's insane scheming guarantees.  It was interesting to watch Madi put the pieces together for her own realization that Silver was setting all this in place and kneecapping their efforts all the way back before the Spanish got involved.  Because she and her people have always had more to lose in this than Silver, her anger was understandable.  She had her reasons for wanting a full blown rebellion that went beyond all of Flint and Silver's maneuvering.  This was a case where Silver's motivations were actually coming from a good place in wanting everyone to be able to live to walk away at the end, but I can see how it came across as incredibly paternalistic to her and she may not be quick to completely forgive him for it.

Loved the framing of Jack telling all this as a story and maybe some of it is more true than the rest.  It applies wonderfully to both the show and the book and how the threads between them tie together and does a nice job covering any niggling details that maybe don't perfectly match up perfectly.  The show has always been interested in the idea of what will your legacy be and how will the stories remember you, with Jack being maybe even more obsessed than the rest.   It's a nice touch that after years of not measuring up to the big dogs like Flint and Vane and Teach and being painfully aware of it that he's both the last of the pirates standing on Nassau and the one who brought about Rogers' downfall.   Love that in the end it's still all about the right pirate flag for him.

I'm okay with Flint living to get his reunion with Thomas, although I question whether it really counts as a big happy ending if they're now two people who have effectively been erased from the world stuck on a penal farm.  I know Silver characterized it as undoing the man Flint had become but he's still an adult who's made the choices he's made to be that man along the way, and it's hard to imagine him being content quietly hoeing crops the rest of his life.  It's also unlikely that Thomas isn't going to be at least a little curious about all the things that James McGraw did as Flint or that "so whatever happened to Miranda after I was declared dead?" isn't going to come up at some point.

So Billy's left marooned on the island.  Now that we're at the end it's probably okay to acknowledge that we know from the book that he'll eventually get off of it and end up with the map to the treasure.  But I have no idea how the writers envision Flint ever entrusting Billy with it after that hellacious fight up on the rigging and Billy turning on him repeatedly.

Silver finding the cook cowering below deck to avoid the fighting was a nice callback to where we met him in the very first episode.

[Triskan]

Kinda frustrated they didnt go with the Parson's Farewell at full blow for the closing titles, as they teased it in the scenes at the tavern with Mary... ahem Mark Reade. This music is just amazing and would have made for awesome closing titles.

And... that's my one and only complaint... it was everything I hoped it would be : giving a great sense of closure, a continuity with the whole narrative, epic moments, beautiful ones, some funny ones as well, bittersweet on some regards and still managing to drop a few twists and surprises on its way out.

I'll miss this show but I sure as fuck watch it sail away with a smile on my face.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Triskan

[FlowerofCarnage]

 To quote Chris Rock "I am not saying he should have did it, but I understand". I hate that he had to go behind Madi's back but how many times could risk Madi ending up dead before she finally saw how destructive Flint is? He knew it could end up with her hating him but like he said, he would take comfort in knowing she was alive and safe. Oh, and when he told her he would wait forever..these shipper tears flowed  all over my face! 

Another thing, she is pissed at Silver but what about her mother and the other leaders? 

OK, now I am.trying to figure out how Flint planned to neutralize Flint if Madi had not been held by Rodgers and the treaty been offered? 

Woodes Rodgers going to prison wasn't as satisfactory because historically, he is eventually freed and returns to Nassau.

Oh, Billy, if you had just bided your time and not have forces Silver's hand, you would have eventually been rid of Flint.

Flint and Thomas *sniffle sniffle*

[peridot]

What a great end.  I loved Rackham's epilogue at the end, though I agree that Flint's end seemed like a dream.

The battle was intense!  I'm glad Madi was able to talk Billy out of cutting her throat.  He really went crazy at the end.

I also liked that Madi and John had a real conflict and were able to work past it. 

Starz has offered some great historical fiction dramas.  I can't wait to see what's next.

[tessathereaper]

12 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I was satisfied too...Ish.  it was a good ending to the series but I also question whether some of the endings feel right or align with the book.

I have a hard time reconciling Madi ever forgiving him Silver for what he did.  His actions made sense to him.  I get it.  At the same time, it was likely the same paternalistic BS that went against everything Madi and her mother stood for. Maybe they're outnumbered and overpowered but Madi arguably had the most just cause for wanting the fight.  Needing it. He was right about Flint's rage but something else drove Madi.

Flint is my favorite character but I'm not sure Flint ending up with a happy ending quite worked.  And making out in the field? And what about when Thomas learns about Miranda and how Flint has been spending his time? Yikes, I have so many questions. That said, the whole reunion with Thomas almost felt dreamlike.  With the focus on Jack's narration and what is "true" or not, I wonder if the story LJS spun about Flint's happily ever after was just that...a story he spun to try to make Madi forgive him and Flint is actually stuck on the same island with Billy.

But I'm also thinking of Treasure Island and where people end up there.  Billy washing ashore kept that thread alive, although apparently stuck at Treasure Island?  But again, that bucolic ending for Flint doesn't quite set him up for TI.  I feel like I want that thread continued a bit more.

Jack and Anne's ending was the one I have zero qualms about.  It gave me pure joy. That was about as perfect as can be.  I loved the whimsy of Jack's narration. I loved the theme that we can't quite be sure which stories to believe and it may not matter.  I loved that he was telling this story to Mark/Mary Read who later joined them.  I loved that they were together and riding again.  I know they die later but I was thrilled that they got a happy ending for the show and one that aligned with their pasts and their futures.

The boarding scene was perfect in length.  LJS's exposition about what happened to Flint seemed like it went on forever. Toby Stephens displayed he's rightfully the star in the TI scene where he spoke of illuminating the shadows.  Riveting. 

Overall, I feel satisfied with the finale.  It played like a movie, almost.  Maybe one day I'll watch this show from the beginning.  It's just a great story.

True Confession:  I don't care how awful he is, I find Woodes Rogers unbelievably attractive on this show.  Even being read for his debts. And so is Billy who I'm still conflicted about.  If there is one person whose turn I don't think the show supported really well--it's his.  It's there but it's thin. Very thing.

LOL I'll go with that true confession.  He's so horrible but he's a very attractive individual. :)  Sometimes he's almost pretty.  

I really enjoyed Jack and Anne's ending and bringing in Mary Read, even knowing how it ends.  It's nice to think of them out there a little longer doing their thing.

I don't know if things will ever be the same with Madi and Silver.  I think she accepted it because she didn't have any other choice but somehow I have a feeling it's always going to be there somewhere between them.  Things like that have a way of building resentment over time.  Who knows it may be part of what sends him back to the island in 20 years or so.  I know it wasn't just him--her mother and other Maroon leaders took the deal, but HE was the one she trusted and he betrayed her by going behind her back and behaving in such a paternalistic manner to "save her".  

I agree, part of me wonders if the story he told about Flint was true or if it was a way for him to "help her" her get over it by saying "see even Flint abandoned the war for love!"  He certainly took a long time to get it out, like he didn't want to have to use THAT lie unless he felt he really had.  And I like that in a way it even made it a little worse, because now she realizes he was planning on going about behind her back for weeks.  

Madi is a grown woman and she was making her own decisions.  IMO she wasn't blinded by "Flint's war", she found common cause with him. She wanted that war too, for even more far reaching reasons.  I thought in a final few episodes there were at least a couple of times where they either directly or indirectly made the point that she and Flint did have certain similarities.  In any case, civilization as it was did nothing for her or her people.  Someone has to fight it or die trying.  

Edited April 2, 2017 by tessathereaper

[magdalene]

Wow, they really stuck the ending on this show.  Since I expected both Flint and Rackham to die in the finale I was very happily surprised.

What can you say about John Silver - what a smart and loving (to the people he cared about) fucker and ruthlessly conniving to save Madi against her wishes and reunite Flint with Thomas. Alive Thomas!

I am thrilled for Toby Schmitz and his Jack Rackham, he was always a joy to watch and was rewarded with a fantastic story line and show ending.

It sucks though if you were still a Billy fan.

[DarkRaichu]

11 hours ago, Enero said:

Silver stating that he was not leaving Maroon Island. Ok. How did he get that type of authority on the island? If they wanted, they could've made him leave. How was he able to just decide he was staying? 

My take.  Madi's mom likes him (evidence from the scene when they thought Madi was dead) and she makes it happens since she is still the Queen of Maroon island.

6 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

It was interesting to watch Madi put the pieces together for her own realization that Silver was setting all this in place and kneecapping their efforts all the way back before the Spanish got involved.

I thought that was the best part of the excellent finale.  She was smart and able to see through Silver's cunning plan

1 hour ago, peridot said:

What a great end.  I loved Rackham's epilogue at the end, though I agree that Flint's end seemed like a dream.

I think Silver told Madi the truth as far as he knew it.  Ben and Israel left as soon as they delivered Flint to the penal plantation owner(?).  The plantation owner was the one who brought Flint to the field.  Frankly nobody from Silver's crew was there to witness the reunion between Flint and Thomas.  That reunion part was Silver's best guess of what would happen.  Maybe it happened like that, most likely not exactly, but that was what Silver wanted Madi to believe.
ETA: Heck Silver did not even know if Thomas actually wanted Flint back.

Edited April 2, 2017 by DarkRaichu
fixed name :(

[Neurochick]

11 hours ago, Enero said:

Though the reunion between Flint and Thomas was lovely, I too wondered if it was real. The dreamlike ambiance of the scene, them kissing out in the open like it was nothing, and Jack's narration about stories of truth and fiction made me question it. The only reason why I believe at least some of it to be true is because Silver told it to Madi, and I don't think he'd lie to her about sending Flint to find Thomas. However, considering where Flint ends up in TI, I wonder if their happiness lasts? At some point, I imagine the weight of what he's done, the horror and destruction he caused over what he thought was Thomas dying will come back to haunt him. 

I kind of felt this might have been real because it does agree with TI because in TI, 

Spoiler

Flint does die in Savannah.

I also think it was real because it was addressed earlier in the season when Max told Silver about the place where she would have sent HIM.  It would not surprise me if many of the people who were sent to that place were openly gay and their families didn't want to deal with them.  I think they mentioned the person who ran the place in Savannah was a reformer.

Quote

I think Silver told Madi the truth as far as he knew it.  Ben and Isiah left as soon as they delivered Flint to the penal plantation owner(?).  The plantation owner was the one who brought Flint to the field.  Frankly nobody from Silver's crew was there to witness the reunion between Flint and Thomas.  That reunion part was Silver's best guess of what would happen.  Maybe it happened like that, most likely not exactly, but that was what Silver wanted Madi to believe.
ETA: Heck Silver did not even know if Thomas actually wanted Flint back.

What Silver told Madi was what he knew to be true.  As for the sequence looking "dream like," that's also how the scene looked when Jack returned to Philadelphia and that's how the scenes looked last episode of Flint and Silver fighting.  

As for Silver staying on Maroon Island, shit, the Maroon Queen thought her daughter was dead and Silver brought him back alive, hell yeah, IMO he could stay.

Silver got that Flint's war had zippo to do with freedom or any noble cause, it had to do with fucking England over, because of what had been done to Thomas.  Silver understood that because when he thought Madi was dead, that's exactly what he wanted to do, he was filled with rage, he wanted to fight in her name.  Silver knew that the only thing that would make Flint stop, was if he thought Thomas Hamilton was alive.  

The Maroons were also fighting for the right to be free and exist and it is true that treaties were made with them, so there is that.  

I did not see this as a completely happy ending, I know what happened to Jack Rackham and Mary Reade; and the speech Flint said to Silver at the end was perfect.  He told Silver that even though now he wanted a life with Madi, that in time it wouldn't be enough for him.  

Spoiler

This is true in TI, because we know that Silver is away for long periods of time, still doing his pirate thing, and does go looking for Flint's treasure.  

Loved when Silver confronted the cook on the British ship.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Neurochick

[DeadlyEuphoric]

What a great end to a great show... Maroons got their freedom. Pirates got rid of Rogers. Thomas/Flint, Madi/Silver, Ann/Jack, Max/Nassau.. "Heroes" won, one way or other....

 

"I will stand here with you, for an hour, a day, a year while you find a way to accept this outcome so we might leave here together"

"I will stay. And I will wait. A day, a month, a year, forever... in the hopes you will understand why i did what i did".

I love it so much that Silver gave  a similar speech/promise to Flint and Madi when trying to make them both see things his way and understand and even, forgive him. They were, and are the two people he came to care for the most in this world. I am pretty sure of it... And his smile when talking about Flint and Thomas' reunion was also rather telling, he was geuinely happy for Flint, imo. Which is why I am sure the story was true.)

The Silver/Flint friendship has been one of the highlights of this show, and I believe both men genuinely cared for one another, despite all the betrayal and manipulation. I never doubted that Flint intended to save Madi, not just for the "cause" but also for Silver's sake... I thought his refusal to give the treasure was not just about needing it for the cause, it also came from knowing Rogers wasn't to be trusted (the guy didn't even agree to a plan his own wife set up, and rather had the Spanish invade & burn and butcher Nassau, for God's sake, Flint knew better to deal with that man again). Flint and Silver get one another in ways no one else gets them. They have shared the same kind of heartbreak, the same intense blind rage, the same kind of deep love so they can relate to each other in a special way not privy to others. They think and "feel" alike. Billy, Silver and Flint both pretty much referred to this in this episode... And I think that is why despite the betrayals their bond persisted. It is why Flint wasn't really angry with Silver for sending people to kill him and seemed to shrug it off. And I think it is also why in the end he was rather resigned to what was to come. He knew, the moment Silver backed Jack's demand to remain behind I think Flint knew something was up. And in the end he just sat there, waiting... Waiting for Silver to come and to talk to him. He wasn't threatening, he didn't bother to fight him - looked like he didn't even bother to have his gun and sword with him-. If it was anyone but Silver, I don't see him being so calm... Flint can't bring himself to kill Silver, in some ways he is all that Flint is left and as he can't kill him, he eventually had to let him call the shots and decide their fates.

The difference between the two was, Silver had hope, he had a chance to get his dream of happily ever after with his true love being a reality, while all Flint had left in his life was avenging of a love lost. So of course Silver would do his best to "end" Flint (in part so Madi was left without an option), and doubt he'd stop even if "reunion with Thomas" wasn't an option. If he had to choose, he'd choose Madi over Flint, just like he chose Flint over Billy, though he rather not have to choose, of course... Thomas, in a way, saved both Silver and Flint in the end. Flint got to live, and Silver did not have to live with the knowledge he had to kill/harm Flint to get to his own happily ever after.

It does look like the moment Silver learned of the possibility of Thomas being alive, he saw an opportunity for himself to leave all this behind. One does wonder what would happen if the Spanish didn't invade Nassau and Madi didn't get captured. How would he reveal the knowledge to Flint. Doubt there would have been a rescue mission for Thomas, as I don't see the pirates being inclined to risk their lives for him, Madi was another matter, she was an ally and seen crucial to their efforts. But Flint would go to save him somehow. Maybe he was hoping with Flint gone, and thus being the bad guy who "betrayed" the cause, he could somehow convince Madi to leave it all behind too. I don't know... I am not holding it against Silver that he didn't reveal about Thomas till now, though, as I don't think he really got a good opportunity.  I get that while grieving it didn't occur to him to tell Flint about it, but I assume he would have revealed it soon. But once finding out Madi was captured I think he withheld the info on purpose as he needed Flint focused on saving Madi too...

 

Thomas and Flint reunited is a happy ending, but hard to ignore the fact they are basically imprisioned... They probably don't care as long as they are united, and I think as long as they do the labor demanded, their wardens don't care either as to what they do in their spare time, but I do! There is something rather sad that the man who was spearheading a war of freedom is the one who ends up in shackles and locked up in the end, though. So in my imaginary world I'd like to think Flint just won't sit still for long and will find a way for him and Thomas to escape that place...

 

Anne/ Jack have been another highlight and their bond has been unwavering. They may just be the only 2 people in this show who never betrayed one another. I like that they came to good terms with Max and the three are a team now, but I feel it will always be Anne & Jack first and foremost. And they won't stop their pirating ways, of course...

 

Max is pretty much living Eleanor's dream. Ruling a Nassau that may look part of the empire on paper but rather autonomous in practice with the appointed governor being one of their own choosing too. And business seems to be booming.

 

Billy came off unhinged when he put that knife to Madi's throat. The stuff he had done is going to haunt him forever. And marooned in the Skeleton Island, he will have more than enough time to rethink it over and over, and so become even more deranged. I don't find it surprising that by the time he got rescued from the island he'd have become extremely paranoid waiting for a reckoning day, and hearing just the name Long John Silver making him freak out. Eh, serves him right.

 

Love that Jack got to be part of Roger's downfall and him and Flint fighting Rogers together was cool. Flint was a soldier and has been a pirate for such a long time afterwards and is so crazy determined when he sets his mind to it, that it doesn't really surprise me when he comes out on top in his fights. Though it never looks particularly easy for him, so they do a good job with writing those. I also appreciate that they make Rogers hard to beat in one-on-one sword fight and Jack or Fliny didn't just manage to just best him on their own.

[DarkRaichu]

20 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

the speech Flint said to Silver at the end was perfect.  He told Silver that even though now he wanted a life with Madi, that in time it wouldn't be enough for him.  

Yes.  It also echoed the "sea will call you back" speech the old sailor told Rackham before he dropped dead.

[DeadlyEuphoric]

23 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Flint does die in Savannah.

I did not see this as a completely happy ending, I know what happened to Jack Rackham and Mary Reade; and the speech Flint said to Silver at the end was perfect.  He told Silver that even though now he wanted a life with Madi, that in time it wouldn't be enough for him.  
 

  Reveal hidden contents

This is true in TI, because we know that Silver is away for long periods of time, still doing his pirate thing, and does go looking for Flint's treasure.

 

Oh yes that... That was another part where I felt Flint knows, because he knows Silver well. Also made me think of Miranda/Flint and wonder if he was seeing parallels between him and Miranda and Silver and Madi. He loved Miranda, deeply, but it wasn't enough to just make him settle and try to build a happy life. Part of it was the rage about what was done to Thomas and the need for vengance, true, but I really think part of it is also because Flint just can't settle down, he was looking for something greater, to "matter" - which can very much tie into what was done to Thomas, how weak and helpless it made Flint feel for not being able to stop it, and how he got determined to never feel that way again, to prove himself to be stronger and unbeatable-...  I think all those great speeches he gives aren't just him being manipulative, he believes in them too. It is not all that different from Jack and his need to make a name, in that sense...

[Neurochick]

8 minutes ago, DeadlyEuphoric said:

Thomas and Flint reunited is a happy ending, but hard to ignore the fact they are basically imprisioned... They probably don't care as long as they are united, and I think as long as they do the labor demanded, their wardens don't care either as to what they do in their spare time, but I do! There is something rather sad that the man who was spearheading a war of freedom is the one who ends up in shackles and locked up in the end, though. So in my imaginary world I'd like to think Flint just won't sit still for long and will find a way for him and Thomas to escape that place...

I think this was the only way that they could get Flint to Savannah,

Spoiler

which, according to TI is where he dies.  

But Flint never really was in this for freedom as much as he wanted to stick it to England because of what happened to both Thomas and Miranda.  Flint never would have stopped, he would have kept on killing until he was either dead or everybody else was.  Silver wanted to have a life with Madi, he didn't want to become Flint and saw how easy it was to become that person, to become a person so filled with rage that nothing could ever extinguish that fire.

 

14 minutes ago, DeadlyEuphoric said:

Billy came off unhinged when he put that knife to Madi's throat. The stuff he had done is going to haunt him forever. And marooned in the Skeleton Island, he will have more than enough time to rethink it over and over, and so become even more deranged. I don't find it surprising that by the time he got rescued from the island he'd have become extremely paranoid waiting for a reckoning day, and hearing just the name Long John Silver making him freak out. Eh, serves him right.

To me, Billy sort of turned into Flint, a person so consumed with rage and anger that he could never let it go.  He was willing to kill Madi, just to get back at Silver and Flint, which was pretty fucked up IMO. 

[DarkRaichu]

7 minutes ago, DeadlyEuphoric said:

Anne/ Jack have been another highlight and their bond has been unwavering. They may just be the only 2 people in this show who never betrayed one another. I like that they came to good terms with Max and the three are a team now, but I feel it will always be Anne & Jack first and foremost. And they won't stop their pirating ways, of course...

.. until Mark Read come along wink wink..
But I agree, Anne & Jack ultimately chose each other when push came to shove

8 minutes ago, DeadlyEuphoric said:

Billy came off unhinged when he put that knife to Madi's throat. The stuff he had done is going to haunt him forever. And marooned in the Skeleton Island, he will have more than enough time to rethink it over and over, and so become even more deranged. I don't find it surprising that by the time he got rescued from the island he'd have become extremely paranoid waiting for a reckoning day, and hearing just the name Long John Silver making him freak out. Eh, serves him right.

Just to add to this.  Billy essentially became the part of Flint he hated the most, monster without loyalty.  We saw the bodies of dead pirates still left on the shore when Flint arrived with Silver to retrieve the cache.   Billy killed a lot of his crewmates and those bodies will become reminders for him through his stay on the island. 

[Neurochick]

One more thing.  Did you notice when, after taking over Rogers' ship, they set out for Treasure Island, that the man who'd Silver sent to find Thomas, was on the row boat?  When I saw him I was like, "I bet he's going to tell Flint about Thomas."  

I wonder if "John Silver" was even his real name.  On the last week's episode, when he wouldn't tell Flint his back story, the first thing that came to my mind was that he was a prostitute or something like that (been reading too much Flint/Silver slash).

My favorite scene was when Silver ran into the cook on Rogers' ship and Silver said, "what are you, a coward?" and the guy was like, "I'm just the cook."  That made me laugh.

[tessathereaper]

28 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I think this was the only way that they could get Flint to Savannah,

  Hide contents

which, according to TI is where he dies.  

But Flint never really was in this for freedom as much as he wanted to stick it to England because of what happened to both Thomas and Miranda.  Flint never would have stopped, he would have kept on killing until he was either dead or everybody else was.  Silver wanted to have a life with Madi, he didn't want to become Flint and saw how easy it was to become that person, to become a person so filled with rage that nothing could ever extinguish that fire.

 

To me, Billy sort of turned into Flint, a person so consumed with rage and anger that he could never let it go.  He was willing to kill Madi, just to get back at Silver and Flint, which was pretty fucked up IMO. 

I don't really agree.  I think Flint believed what he was saying to a large extent.  He believed a lot of those things himself.  He wanted to stick it to England sure, but I think he also wanted wanted a world where there was someplace, maybe even everyplace, where what happened to him, Thomas and Miranda wouldn't happen again, for which you need freedom. So no, Flint wouldn't have stopped because frankly those ends hadn't been reached.  Part of it could be "just wanting to kill kill kill forever" but it could also be that the fight for that wasn't even close to being achieved.  Really pretty much everything Flint describes in his last speech is what appears to have happened in the end, so was he really wrong?  

[Irlandesa]

3 hours ago, FlowerofCarnage said:

I hate that he had to go behind Madi's back but how many times could risk Madi ending up dead before she finally saw how destructive Flint is? He knew it could end up with her hating him but like he said, he would take comfort in knowing she was alive and safe. Oh, and when he told her he would wait forever..these shipper tears flowed  all over my face!

But that's part of the problem. He did it because it was about what he wanted.  He wanted to know Madi was alive even though I think Madi was willing to die for her cause.  Madi didn't need to understand or see anything more about Flint at this point.  She knew who he was.  She saw a way to get what she wanted through him. It was even touched upon quite a bit that they thought alike.

In the end, LJS didn't do what he did because he was smarter than she was or knew more than she did.  He chose his love over her principles. Maybe her love for him will allow her to live with that but I also have to imagine that it's an injury that will never truly heal between them.

As for the Thomas/Flint ending, part of the reason I still can't decide if it was real or not is because LJS was the one telling the tale whereas everyone else's epilogue was verbally or visually told through Jack. 

Book talk:

Spoiler

And heck, I still want to know how Flint ends up drinking himself to death and then giving the map to Billy.  I get that the book is only an inspiration for the series and we can't take it so literally and yet in other ways they really pay a lot of attention to the book.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Irlandesa

[Neurochick]

16 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

As for the Thomas/Flint ending, part of the reason I still can't decide if it was real or not is because LJS was the one telling the tale whereas everyone else's epilogue was verbally or visually told through Jack. 

I think the Thomas/Flint ending was real because one of the men who went to the island with Flint and Silver, when they were to retrieve the treasure, was the man Silver sent to find out if Thomas was in that prison/rehab/whatever.  

I think we're all so used to seeing sad endings that happy looking endings on TV shows seem suspect; but to me no one really got happily ever after, because...

Book Talk

Spoiler

No happy endings because Flint dies of alcoholism in Savannah, Rackham was executed, Mary Reade died in childbirth, Rogers eventually became governor of Nassau again. 

[Cassandre]

2 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

I really enjoyed Jack and Anne's ending and bringing in Mary Read, even knowing how it ends.  It's nice to think of them out there a little longer doing their thing.

I wish they could do a spin-off of Black Sails about them doing their thing.

[GodsBeloved]

17 hours ago, Enero said:

I'll have more thoughts later. 

Waiting patiently ...

[GodsBeloved]

14 hours ago, Enero said:

Interesting:

 

Silver stating that he was not leaving Maroon Island. Ok. How did he get that type of authority on the island? If they wanted, they could've made him leave. How was he able to just decide he was staying? 

Silver saying "the pirates are leaving the island," felt like he was speaking outside of them like it was him and then it was them, that he was no longer apart of that group, which I guess he wasn't since he was remaining on Maroon Island.

I think this goes back to Silver being the one pirate the Maroons, specifically Queen Mother and Madi trusted.

Plus Queen Mother knows Silver loves Madi and she saw his devotion to her when he wanted to trade the cache for her life.

Silver was accepted by the leadership so I think overall, he was accepted by the community, became a part of the community.

And Madi, yes she was angry, very angry with Silver but she loved him. The fact that she didn't have him thrown off the island shows, to me at least, that when all was said and done, she did want to work things out with him. She did want that chance to walk out to the shore and forgive him.

[GodsBeloved]

9 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I'm okay with Flint living to get his reunion with Thomas, although I question whether it really counts as a big happy ending if they're now two people who have effectively been erased from the world stuck on a penal farm.  I know Silver characterized it as undoing the man Flint had become but he's still an adult who's made the choices he's made to be that man along the way, and it's hard to imagine him being content quietly hoeing crops the rest of his life.  It's also unlikely that Thomas isn't going to be at least a little curious about all the things that James McGraw did as Flint or that "so whatever happened to Miranda after I was declared dead?" isn't going to come up at some point.

I think Flint was projecting onto Silver when he told Silver that a life with Madi would not be enough for him.

Flint is so far gone, all he can see satisfying him is his rage and desire to see the world burn and he wants that to be true for Silver too. But Silver isn't so deep in the darkness that he can't see a life in the light.

Edited April 3, 2017 by GodsBeloved

[Enero]

51 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

Waiting patiently ...

I finally posted my thoughts up thread. Don't know if that's what you're referring to. :)

 

2 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

But that's part of the problem. He did it because it was about what he wanted.  He wanted to know Madi was alive even though I think Madi was willing to die for her cause.  Madi didn't need to understand or see anything more about Flint at this point.  She knew who he was.  She saw a way to get what she wanted through him. It was even touched upon quite a bit that they thought alike.

 

See I don't think she was willing to die for the cause. When Billy was ready to slit her throat,  to level the final blow to Silver/Flint, to make her a martyr, she talked him out of doing it.  I think she wanted to live to see another day to fight her war. She saw who Flint was , but she also believed him. She believed him when he said they could win that unwinnable war and I think for all her intellect and understanding of Flint, she got drawn into the very darkness that she worried Silver would loose himself to. 

3 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I did not see this as a completely happy ending, I know what happened to Jack Rackham and Mary Reade; and the speech Flint said to Silver at the end was perfect.  He told Silver that even though now he wanted a life with Madi, that in time it wouldn't be enough for him.  

  Hide contents

This is true in TI, because we know that Silver is away for long periods of time, still doing his pirate thing, and does go looking for Flint's treasure.  

 

Well I think there is happiness for them all, at least for a period of time, and then as life goes on things will eventually change again and there is heartache and death. Regarding Madi/Silver, the shipper in me chooses to believe that they worked through this betrayal and for the most part found happiness until Silver inevitably became restless again.  I wonder if Madi became restless too? How could she not? Though her experiences were mostly dark, she'd had a taste of adventure outside of Maroon Island. She'd seen some of the world beyond the isolation of her home, a world that she was curious about and at one point, to a point wanted to conquer. Perhaps this is how she and Silver ends up

Spoiler

managing an Inn in Bristol? 

 

With regards to TI and Silver 

Spoiler

I don't recall TI stating that he'd be away for long periods of time. Perhaps I missed a paragraph or two? In fact, when he went in search for the treasure it was stated that the belief was he went back to pirating again due to his health issues and what was implied as the boredom that was married life. I could be misinterpreting this, but it sounded like he'd been out of the pirate game for a while. That's not to say he'd been sitting on his laurels for the entire 20 years since the "war" ended, but I didn't get the impression that he was away for  extended periods of time.  All that said, Silver made a point to say that he planned to get his share of the treasure and run off with the wife and according to him she was all in being as she was selling off his assets in Bristol in preparation to meet up with him. So I think there was still love, happiness and a connection there. Was it perfect, likely no. What marriage is?  But I think they were still very much together by the time TI rolls around. JMHO

 

One nitpick I had - "Savannah" was gorgeous, but unfortunately in real life is flat as a fiddle and has no mountains.  I think the closest set of mountains to Savannah are in North Georgia about 400 miles away and it definitely wouldn't be tropical and have palm trees. LOL

Edited April 3, 2017 by Enero

[GodsBeloved]

21 minutes ago, Enero said:

See I don't think she was willing to die for the cause. When Billy was ready to slit her throat,  to level the final blow to Silver/Flint, to make her a martyr, she talked him out of doing it.  I think she wanted to live to see another day to fight her war. She saw who Flint was , but she also believed him. She believed him when he said they could win that unwinnable war and I think for all her intellect and understanding of Flint, she got drawn into the very darkness that she worried Silver would loose himself to.

I agree.

I also made the very same point about Madi. Someone called her a suicide bomber and I told my friend  that no, she wasn't because she talked Billy out of killing her even thought that would have made her a martyr and united Silver and Flint again.

[tessathereaper]

5 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

I agree.

I also made the very same point about Madi. Someone called her a suicide bomber and I told my friend  that no, she wasn't because she talked Billy out of killing her even thought that would have made her a martyr and united Silver and Flint again.

I don't think that doesn't mean she wasn't committed to the cause or wasn't willing to die for it.  Not everyone wants to be a martyr in the sense of dying while chained up like a dog in the hold of a ship by a psycho who is only doing it for vengeance.  It means she has a sense of self-worth, not a lack of willingness to die for her cause.  She was important to ultimate success of their plan because her leadership ability was needed.  Yes it would unite Flint and Silver against Rogers, but what about what happens after that?  She was an important leg of this triumvirate. 

[miss carousel]

40 minutes ago, Enero said:

I finally posted my thoughts up thread. Don't know if that's what you're referring to. :)

 

See I don't think she was willing to die for the cause. When Billy was ready to slit her throat,  to level the final blow to Silver/Flint, to make her a martyr, she talked him out of doing it.  I think she wanted to live to see another day to fight her war. She saw who Flint was , but she also believed him. She believed him when he said they could win that unwinnable war and I think for all her intellect and understanding of Flint, she got drawn into the very darkness that she worried Silver would loose himself to. 

Well I think there is happiness for them all, at least for a period of time, and then as life goes on things will eventually change again and there is heartache and death. Regarding Madi/Silver, the shipper in me chooses to believe that they worked through this betrayal and for the most part found happiness until Silver inevitably became restless again.  I wonder if Madi became restless too? How could she not? Though her experiences were mostly dark, she'd had a taste of adventure outside of Maroon Island. She'd seen some of the world beyond the isolation of her home, a world that she was curious about and at one point, to a point wanted to conquer. Perhaps this is how she and Silver ends up

  Reveal hidden contents

managing an Inn in Bristol? 

 

With regards to TI and Silver 

  Reveal hidden contents

I don't recall TI stating that he'd be away for long periods of time. Perhaps I missed a paragraph or two? In fact, when he went in search for the treasure it was stated that the belief was he went back to pirating again due to his health issues and what was implied as the boredom that was married life. I could be misinterpreting this, but it sounded like he'd been out of the pirate game for a while. That's not to say he'd been sitting on his laurels for the entire 20 years since the "war" ended, but I didn't get the impression that he was away for  extended periods of time.  All that said, Silver made a point to say that he planned to get his share of the treasure and run off with the wife and according to him she was all in being as she was selling off his assets in Bristol in preparation to meet up with him. So I think there was still love, happiness and a connection there. Was it perfect, likely no. What marriage is?  But I think they were still very much together by the time TI rolls around. JMHO

 

One nitpick I had - "Savannah" was gorgeous, but unfortunately in real life is flat as a fiddle and has no mountains.  I think the closest set of mountains to Savannah are in North Georgia about 400 miles away and it definitely wouldn't be tropical and have palm trees. LOL

Savannah has palm trees and the climate is classified as subtropical.

[Enero]

4 minutes ago, miss carousel said:

Savannah has palm trees and the climate is classified as subtropical.

Yes. I know. But I was saying the local used on the show also had mountains which Savannah doesn't have. I meantioned that the closest mountains to Savannah are in North Georgia however that locale doesn't have palm trees and a sub tropical climate. Basically the location they used for Savannah, though beautiful, was not an accurate depiction of it. 

[Ravenya003]

Okay, I'm going to post my quick thoughts before going back and reading everyone else's:

Pretty satisfying ending. I had an inkling that Thomas would still be alive, ever since he first "died" (by word-of-mouth, with no body in sight).

I felt Silver/Madi needed a little more closure given the depth of Silver's betrayal. Just a wordless montage of them opening an inn together and secretly flaunting the treaty by using at as a base of operations for escaped slaves would have gone a long way for me. As it is, I'm not sure why exactly Madi would forgive Silver so quickly - though I suppose any length of time might have passed before she met him on that cliff edge by the sea. 

Things didn't align with Treasure Island as much as I wanted them to. It was Billy, not Ben who ended up stranded on Treasure Island. Huh? I was half-hoping the surviving characters of this show would do an adaptation of Treasure Island at some point down the line, but that switcheroo has thrown a spanner in the works. How would Billy end up back on the mainland with a map to the treasure given to him by Flint of all people? And how would Ben get back on the island? And who arranged all the dead bodies to point to the treasure? I suppose all the episode's talk of fact/fiction in our stories was meant to cover for these inconsistencies. (Though as corny as it sounds, I'm sorry we never got to see Silver get his parrot).

Genuinely surprised that Jack survived this, though giving him and Anne the last scene was fitting - in many ways, they're the only pirates left. 

I actually held it together when James/Thomas reunited, but burst into tears at the scene of Mrs Hudson and her children. I have a tendency to over-invest in minor characters, and I'm so glad they didn't forget her. And that she was reading them a book of pirates was the perfect capper. 

Ditto Featherstone, Idelle and Mrs Mapleton at the Nassau tavern (didn't see Eme though). But Mary Read! I clapped out loud. I KNEW they wouldn't forget her, even if it was just to slip her in at the last second. Bless. 

Edited April 3, 2017 by Ravenya003

[Irlandesa]

2 hours ago, Enero said:

See I don't think she was willing to die for the cause. When Billy was ready to slit her throat,  to level the final blow to Silver/Flint, to make her a martyr, she talked him out of doing it.

Just to clarify, I did say "willing" which doesn't quite rise to the level of "wanting."  People are willing to die for their country or cause but that doesn't mean they wouldn't rather have the alternative (i.e. living with the win.)

Edited April 3, 2017 by Irlandesa

[ulkis]

10 hours ago, Triskan said:

Kinda frustrated they didnt go with the Parson's Farewell at full blow for the closing titles, as they teased it in the scenes at the tavern with Mary... ahem Mark Reade.

Yeah. I heard it and I thought, "oh! great choice!" and then they stopped it. Weird.

Oh, and coincidentally (?), TCM is showing "Treasure Island" on Tuesday.

Edited April 3, 2017 by ulkis

[WatchrTina]

Well that was just a rollicking good time.  I turned off the lights and pulled my chair up in front of the flat-screen for the theater experience.  I laughed, I cheered, it was awesome!

Silver & Flint's confrontation on the island was amazing.  

Silver & Rackham's sizing up of one another's half-truth's was amazing (I love how much both characters have grown in confidence since season 1.)  

I loved Silver finding the cook.  

I loved Jack's confusion over the "candidate" for the position of Governor and then finding out that it was Featherstone (with Idelle by his side and Max pulling the strings.)

I'm so grateful for the moment where they showed us Mrs. Hudson.

I knew from the moment Thomas was mentioned earlier in the season that we would see a reunion scene between him and Flint.  But as some have pointed out -- we were hearing a story told by Silver at the time (a reunion not witnessed by anyone from Nassau) and it is wildly unlikely that two men would kiss on the mouth in that time in front of witnesses in a freaking penal colony so I'm not 100% sure that happy ending ever happened.  I'm not sure that can be reconciled with the version of Flint that I've been told I will encounter in the book Treasure Island.  But I want to believe.

Alas poor Billy -- stuck on a haunted island full of the rotting corpses of his friends -- many of whom he shot.  It makes perfect sense that by the time he gets off that island he's going to be even more of a tortured soul (which I think corresponds to the character we meet in Treasure Island.)

What a great ride.  I think I may have to binge my way through the whole thing this summer.  And perhaps I will read Treasure Island for the first time as well.

Edited April 3, 2017 by WatchrTina

[raven]

The plantation house CGI was terrible.  That's my only criticism. 

History is told by the victors.  Jack's whole voice over about stories alluded to that.   Eventually fact and fiction will blend together; if you tell it enough, people will accept it as 100% truth. 

I was on pins and needles the whole time waiting for Flint or Jack to die so I'm happy that neither one did here.  I am not surprised that Flint bested everyone in the physical fights - they come at him with anger and they flail around.  Flint's lived with his anger for so long that he knows how to work with it in a fight.  The one who came closest to killing him was Joji last week (calm and collected fighter) and he lost because they happened to roll down a hill.   Silver overcame Flint and brought back McGraw by talking down the anger and not countering with more anger.  I want to believe Silver, so that story I'm going to believe :)

I don't think Flint would be stuck on the plantation; we see money changing hands with the guy who runs the place so maybe they bought Thomas's freedom.  I'm going to just leave those two in the happy bubble in my mind and not worry about Thomas asking what happened to Miranda?  what happened to my parents?

6 hours ago, DeadlyEuphoric said:

"I will stand here with you, for an hour, a day, a year while you find a way to accept this outcome so we might leave here together"

"I will stay. And I will wait. A day, a month, a year, forever... in the hopes you will understand why i did what i did".

I noticed this too and liked the parallels.  I actually got a bit more emotional when Silver said it to Flint.  That whole scene was amazing with the two of them, as was Toby Stephens' "monster in the dark" speech, then Silver essentially telling him that it didn't matter.

I teared up a little at Flint/Thomas and when Madi approached Silver at the end.  I imagine that after seeing her people live in peace for a while would soften her stance towards him.  I liked that she told him to get out when he confessed what happened, that she was smart enough to figure out how long he had been holding onto the Thomas plan.  She's not someone who would want him making decisions for her.

Silver has been learning and watching, which is why he didn't tell her.  Then he sees her face - really, she is happy and glowing - after they take Rogers' ship and she sees Flint.  That confirms, for Silver, that he was right to do that.  I'm not saying he was right; I have to think about it more but I can see how the character thinks so. 

Happy that Max ended up running Nassau; she learned a thing or two along the way as well.

Thank you Black Sails for a very satisfying ending!

[Ottis]

Should we assume that the Flint and Thomas reunion was a made up story, because right after the stand off between Silver and Flint, we cut to a scene of the men waiting nearby and we see them react to something (there is no sound) while birds suddenly fly off. That was a gun shot?

A beautifully done series final. Would have been nicer if the dream were real, but I don't see it. Not between that scene, the two men kissing in the field in the open and the way Silver spun the tale. Like others, I especially enjoyed where Rackham ended up, helping write the tale that becomes history.

I don't quite understand how Rogers lost that battle, having the advantage and, I assume, the numbers in terms of men. His ship was larger, his fighters were trained. 

Edited April 3, 2017 by Ottis

[WatchrTina]

15 minutes ago, Ottis said:

Should we assume that the Flint and Thomas reunion was a made up story, because right after the stand off between Silver and Flint, we cut to a scene of the men waiting nearby and we see them react to something (there is no sound) while birds suddenly fly off. That was a gun shot?

Oooh yeah.  I had forgotten that.  That's a VERY good point and (I think) a perfectly plausible interpretation.  It means that what we (the viewers) were shown is just the story that John told Madi.  It could simply be a version of the old "Hey kids, we spent Sparky to go live on a farm.  He was absolutely not hit by a car.  Nope, definitely on a farm."

[nodorothyparker]

I'm believing it did happen more or less as Silver told it but I don't know if I would hold that same opinion if it weren't for the book.  If Flint is really most sincerely dead, then it's hard to imagine Silver or somebody wouldn't immediately have men out combing that island looking for the treasure.  As they left it, it's still a bit of stretch to think they all just let it sit in the ground for the 20 years or so.  But as it is, I'm left to fanwank a bit that Flint with or without Thomas will someday be free to either plan on going back for it or to at least write it all down on the map that will kick off Treasure Island, just as I'm left to fanwank Billy getting off that island to eventually play his part.

Without knowing that Treasure Island will happen a couple of decades from now, the "we took Flint to go live on a nice farm upstate" idea seems as probable as anything else.  Silver could clearly see that Flint couldn't go on as he was, and in that case he very well could have come to view it as putting his friend out of his misery before he could drag anyone else down with him in the same way you'd put down a mad dog.

[attica]

1 hour ago, Ottis said:

I don't quite understand how Rogers lost that battle, having the advantage and, I assume, the numbers in terms of men. His ship was larger, his fighters were trained. 

Flint is the cleverest captain (outside of Blackbeard) in the Caribbean. Plus, he's been on the outside forever, i.e. always fighting at a disadvantage, so he knows the outsider's way of turning size and training against the foe that wields both.  That was such a great set piece, imo. I was bouncing on my couch with glee.

Oh, I was thrilled to see Madi wearing Flint-like trousers. I was delighted to see Mary Read pop up at the end. I was relieved to see Anne looking hale and hardy (as opposed to the hammered shit she's looked like virtually all season), wearing her jaunty hat again. I was tickled to see TS and RPJ liplocking like they meant it.

And when Billy washed up on Skeleton Island, I could hear Elton John singing "Ol' Billy Bones just wants to know who'll fly the White Bird home."

Bye, Pirates! I'll miss you scurvy lads!

[Ottis]

37 minutes ago, attica said:

Flint is the cleverest captain (outside of Blackbeard) in the Caribbean. Plus, he's been on the outside forever, i.e. always fighting at a disadvantage, so he knows the outsider's way of turning size and training against the foe that wields both.  That was such a great set piece, imo. I was bouncing on my couch with glee.

I understand that. What I didn't understand was *how.* We saw Flint climb up and free his side's ship enough to turn it, so his crew could board and fight. But again, Rogers had a bigger ship, with (I assume) more men, and his men were soldiers. I saw no evidence that made me believe he should lose. Even if it is the "Flint can work magic" fan wank, a show will usually give us a scene that indicates how the underdog pulled it off ... a rallying moment, or clever idea. We didn't see anything. 

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

 If Flint is really most sincerely dead, then it's hard to imagine Silver or somebody wouldn't immediately have men out combing that island looking for the treasure.

I assume they did just that. I am not familiar with TI, but even if Flint were alive, why wouldn't Silvers have men looking for the treasure? BTW, given what we saw of Flint and the treasure, it shouldn't have been that hard to find. He could only cover so much ground in the time he was ahead of Silvers.

BTW, these questions are nitpicks for what was a fabulous series final. I still can't believe it is over.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Ottis

[ulkis]

If I didn't know he was a book character, I'd be wondering why the hell they even bothered showing us Billy again. Otherwise, I thought it all worked without having had to know what was in the book.

Absolutely tickled that Featherstone became the governor.

[attica]

25 minutes ago, Ottis said:

I understand that. What I didn't understand was *how.* We saw Flint climb up and free his side's ship enough to turn it, so his crew could board and fight. But again, Rogers had a bigger ship, with (I assume) more men, and his men were soldiers. I saw no evidence that made me believe he should lose. Even if it is the "Flint can work magic" fan wank, a show will usually give us a scene that indicates how the underdog pulled it off ... a rallying moment, or clever idea. We didn't see anything.

Flint et al. de-masted the Eurydice, for one. Having his men board via the helm is unexpected --most boardings occur over the sides, where the soldiers were stationed, so: element of surprise. Attacking the helmsters further incapacitates the bigger ship, since soldiers aren't trained to navigate. And last but not least, the cook stayed below! :)

[DarkRaichu]

1 hour ago, attica said:

Flint et al. de-masted the Eurydice, for one. Having his men board via the helm is unexpected --most boardings occur over the sides, where the soldiers were stationed, so: element of surprise. Attacking the helmsters further incapacitates the bigger ship, since soldiers aren't trained to navigate. And last but not least, the cook stayed below! :)

The pirates also shot some canons to disable the soldiers standing near the rails

[henripootel]

On 4/2/2017 at 5:09 AM, Enero said:

Though the reunion between Flint and Thomas was lovely, I too wondered if it was real. The dreamlike ambiance of the scene, them kissing out in the open like it was nothing, and Jack's narration about stories of truth and fiction made me question it. The only reason why I believe at least some of it to be true is because Silver told it to Madi, and I don't think he'd lie to her about sending Flint to find Thomas.

My only reason for thinking it actually happened was the opening scene where Silver's emissary is asking after someone specific, whom we later know is Thomas.  Nothing dreamy about that that I recall, and were it not for this, I'd have waited patiently for the reveal that Silver put a bullet in Flint and left him near that rock. 

The whole notion of the plantation where society sends their refuse sounds plausible, but it it's own way, unlikely.  Case in point - wet nurses.  Back in the day, society bastard babies were often sent to professional 'wet nurses', lactating women who took in wayward kids for money.  Sounds rosy but in reality the death rate among these kids was astronomical.  The reality was that people sent their 'little problems' off to die, but out of sight.  My guess is that the prison planation, were it to actually exist, would be much the same.  The disease load among agricultural workers in that region at that time was withering, so I kinda doubt Thomas would have lasted long enough for Flint to take up and then give up piracy.

Along those lines ... not convinced that Flint could give up piracy.  I kinda thought that was Flint's journey, that anything that was James really and truly was gone, and only Flint remained.  I'm sure he could have recovered something of himself with Thomas' love and time but the notion that he'd just go 'poof - Flint's gone like he never happened' sounds unlikely.  I know Flint was tired and worn but he'd been gearing up for war, and suddenly he's cool about instant retirement as, basically, a slave?  Even a domestically happy slave - no.  The only way it makes sense to me that Flint (with Thomas) never escaped and returned to Nassau was because he never made it to retirement plantation, and Thomas was never there, even if retirement planation actually existed.

Edited April 3, 2017 by henripootel

[Ottis]

1 minute ago, henripootel said:

My only reason for thinking it actually happened was the opening scene where Silver's emissary is asking after someone specific, whom we later know is Thomas.  Nothing dreamy about that that I recall, and were it not for this, I'd have waited patiently for the reveal that Silver put a bullet in Flint and left him near that rock. 

Why would this make you think the reunion happened? What if the answer was that Thomas wasn't there? Or that he was there but Flint never went back to see Thomas because Silvers killed him? In fact, real time, I thought Silver's emissary to the plantation house was still on his way back, and Silvers didn't know the answer, yet, as to whether Thomas was there. In any case, not sure why the earlier action, which I agreed did happen, meant the later reunion had to be real.

4 minutes ago, henripootel said:

Along those lines ... not convinced that Flint could give up piracy.  I kinda thought that was Flint's journey, that anything that was James really and truly was gone, and only Flint remained.  I'm sure he could have recovered something of himself with Thomas' love and time but the notion that he'd just go 'poof - Flint's gone like he never happened' sounds unlikely.  I know Flint was tired and worn but he'd been gearing up for war, and suddenly he's cool about instant retirement as, basically, a slave?  Even a domestically happy slave - no. 

This seems more realistic, IMO. I think Flint didn't want to give up. And I wonder if Silvers told him during their standoff - or even knew - that Thomas was imprisoned. I don't think he knew, and Flint is dead.

[MaryMatts]

Well, I'm going to believe everyone had a happy ending and, since I've never actually read TI, I am going to ignore that Jack and Anne may come to a bad end in the near future.  I also thought that, since a purse of gold changed hands, that Flint actually bought Thomas' freedom and that they left the prison plantation.  I was so wishing Thomas could still be alive and they'd get back together that I can't believe they actually ended it like that, lol!  

The one character I didn't sympathize with at all is Madi.  She could have died and I couldn't have cared less though I suppose I wanted Silver to have a happy ending.  Love him and his encounter with the quivering cook was just hilariously karmic.

Seriously, I am sooo happy with this finale. ? I was so geared up for several major character deaths that I was tickled pink they all survived (even Woodes Rogers whom - I agree with other posters - is seriously hot!)  Only sorry Eleanor, Vane and Teach couldn't have survive too.  Also sorry Billy's ending was not happier but at least he didn't die.

I am so going to miss this show but what the heck, there is always fanfiction to fill in the gaps....?

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

[Slovenly Muse]

9 minutes ago, henripootel said:

Along those lines ... not convinced that Flint could give up piracy.  I kinda thought that was Flint's journey, that anything that was James really and truly was gone, and only Flint remained.  I'm sure he could have recovered something of himself with Thomas' love and time but the notion that he'd just go 'poof - Flint's gone like he never happened' sounds unlikely.  I know Flint was tired and worn but he'd been gearing up for war, and suddenly he's cool about instant retirement as, basically, a slave?  Even a domestically happy slave - no. 

But remember the story of how Flint got his name? The tale of the enigmatic wraith known only as "Flint" who appeared out of nowhere and disappeared into the ether just as mysteriously? James' whole identity AS "Flint" is based on a spectre who was designed to have no future and no past, only to do his work, and to slip away into oblivion. I have no problem believing that James could cast off his Flint identity as easily as that... after all, it's what that persona was intended for. 

Although, I have a hard time believing James and Thomas lived together in prison for long. Flint is an unstoppable force, and I choose to believe that with Thomas to fight for, he quickly found a weapon, slaughtered his and Thomas' way out of there, comandeered a ship, and sailed away into the sunset. I have a LOT of emotional well-being invested in this story, guys.

That said, there is a lot of evidence to suggest that Silver actually did kill Flint, and just spun the story of the "farm upstate" to placate Madi. After all, why bring the sledge, rope, and shovels to shore if there was no intention of digging up the treasure? To bury a body, perhaps? Or, sure, to sell the illusion to Flint that they were going to recover the treasure... But then, Flint is definitively out of the picture in TI, not a loose end that could be dangling out there somewhere, correct? And it is better for Silver if Flint is dead... in prison, he might bribe the guards with the location of the treasure for his freedom, he might act out against Silver at some point, or reveal the location of the treasure to people Silver considers enemies, or just interfere with the stories Silver wants to spin about Captain Flint and his buried treasure... We never heard the overseer at the plantation confirm that Thomas was there, and we never heard Silver make this offer to Flint, so the truth REALLY could go either way. Even just leaving him marooned there could come back to bite Silver (especially if stories are circulating about Skeleton Island and buried treasure). Killing Flint really was Silver's best option. I could definitely see Silver lying to Madi to cover up his betrayal, and letting the Savannah story become a scarecly-spoken common wisdom about his fate. If you believe he has it in him to kill his greatest friend. And with how little we know of the real John Silver, it's a real mystery. A damn GOOD mystery. 

But at the end, even though it seems like the tale of Captain Flint is a comforting fib giving an improbably happy ending to a dead man, murdered by his best friend and buried on an uncharted island alongside an immense treasure... There is one thought that leads me to believe the story is true: 

Madi believes it.

And she's smarter than me, and nearly everyone else on the show, and knows Silver better than anyone, so I can't doubt Silver's story without doubting Madi's intelligence, therefore, it MUST be true!

And this means "sailing away into the sunset" is the only possible ending! Shut up, it is! Sunset, people! SUNSET!

Also, I can't leave this show without saying:

8 hours ago, Ottis said:

quite understand how Rogers lost that battle, having the advantage and, I assume, the numbers in terms of men. His ship was larger, his fighters were trained. 

ROGERS IS THE WORST! He is so USELESS! I can't think of a thing he accomplished that Eleanor didn't actually accomplish FOR him (and Billy after her: the Skeleton Island ambush was Billy's idea), and everything he's tried to do on his own has been a complete failure! When he attacked Jack's ship, remember, he had no strategy apart from trying to confuse the pirates and cause chaos (remember an officer advised him to change the ship's position, and his response was, "fuck that, just shoot at them randomly from here!"). Flint, however, is a brilliant tactician who did not allow his crew to fall into alarm and chaos, but implemented a plan that was unexpected and effective at seizing control from Rogers' men. I imagine he's quite good at taking ships with superior numbers! And when battling on land, he is controlled and clever as well, using others' emotions against them, and overpowering multiple assailants or opponents larger and stronger than him (even a SAMURAI!), by using his smarts. However, as much as I would love to give credit to Flint for this one, I think it comes down to Rogers and his mindless quest for revenge. He is lashing out like a child, not a strategist, and superior numbers don't mean a thing if you don't know how to use them. Good riddance to the least competent character we've seen rise to the rank of "Governor." 

Man, I am really going to miss this show. But I am glad Flint and Thomas definitely, absolutely, no question, got their happy ending. Because they did.

Sunset, guys. Sunset.

[nodorothyparker]

There's the real question in this then:  Do we believe Silver lied to Madi, the woman he wants a life with?  And if so, is he prepared to live the rest of his life with her believing that lie?  They went into that conversation with her already angry that the Maroon alliance had accepted the treaty and the war was ending.  She also already believed Silver had killed Flint.  The rest of our cast of characters will believe what they will.  As long as Flint doesn't suddenly reappear on the deck of a ship somewhere with guns a blazing, it doesn't really matter whether he's retired or dead.  He'll just be a name they remember from back in the day when they were all pirating.  

But it matters very much what Madi thinks.  Does she believe Silver is the man who killed his partner, the man who was closest to him, and be left to think it's really shitty that the war effort fell apart so quickly in his absence with everyone accepting peace terms but what are you going to do?  Or does she believe his story that he quietly took Flint out of the game but get to be a whole new round of angry at him as she susses out that he was plotting an end to the war she was willing to give her life for behind her back and lying to her throughout?  Silver knows how smart she is and that if he offered up that thread she was likely to pull it.

[Neurochick]

7 hours ago, Ottis said:

I assume they did just that. I am not familiar with TI, but even if Flint were alive, why wouldn't Silvers have men looking for the treasure? BTW, given what we saw of Flint and the treasure, it shouldn't have been that hard to find. He could only cover so much ground in the time he was ahead of Silvers.

BTW, these questions are nitpicks for what was a fabulous series final. I still can't believe it is over.

Well, in TI,

Spoiler

Flint dies of alcoholism in Savannah; he had a map of where the treasure was buried and somehow Billy got a hold of it.  For the rest of Billy's life he was afraid of Silver, so much so that when he thought Silver was near, he had a stroke and died.

At that time, Silver didn't want the treasure because like the saying goes, "mo money, mo problems."

Also the guy who Silver sent to find Thomas, was in the rowboat, when they went back to Treasure Island.  So to me that was a huge hint.  I could believe that Silver killed Flint if there hadn't been this mention of a "camp" where wealthy families sent the children they didn't want to deal with.  

Edited April 3, 2017 by Neurochick