Season 1 Talk

[Lady Calypso]

8 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

Yes but there was also his constant not so subtle suggestions to physically attack Clay. Now I get it, he was clearly an abused kid with a shitty mother who kept having even shittier boyfriends who clearly physically abused him. But it didn't make him any less of a little asshole and a violent one at that.

Honestly, I couldn't understand where Justin's seeming hatred and rage towards Clay, right from the start, came from. It was almost like he resented Clay for, in a sense, getting off easy on the tapes with Hannah basically saying that Clay really didn't belong on them because at the end of it all, he really was just a genuinely nice guy.

For some reason that seemed to just enrage Justin. His whole, "you're not that innocent" to Clay when Clay was looking at Hannah's locker before poor Clay even knew the tapes existed, complete with seething hatred was really over the top. Though Clay's, "do you even know my name", was kind of hilarious. 

Oh yeah, I totally agree with this. Justin's hatred toward Clay definitely feels like it stems from pure jealousy. Which is why I feel weird for feeling sorry for him at all and actually wanting to watch more of his arc. I feel dirty for being even somewhat supportive of this asshole, who has led the charge on some of the actions against Clay. But this show has completely surprised me with how easy it is to feel sympathetic to even this guy. Plus, the actor was actually really good. I'm surprised this is his first major role, and only second role total. 

[tennisgurl]

I can sympathize with Courtney not feeling able to accept her sexuality, and she does seem to feel bad about what happened with Hannah, but I cant excuse her throwing Hannah under the bus. She knew how heartbroken Hannah was by people talking about her, and she just added more fuel to the fire.

Poor Clay. Just tell someone!

[Guest]

I haven't read the book but already in ep 1 there was verbage saying it mattered that this stuff wasn't online, to Hannah.  That to me is enough explanation for the cassettes.  We've already seen one instance of cyberbullying.  I watched this with my high schooler who did read the book maybe 4 years ago and she didn't balk at the tapes, either.  She did say they all look too old to be 10th graders but of course that's true of all high schoolers on tv.  

[Zima]

So Hannah's dad only cares now because his business is being affected?

This show is addicting. 

[absnow54]

Okay, the drama revolving around the tapes is making my head hurt. It makes sense that the kids were passing along the tapes after they finished hearing them, because Hannah explained some sort of fail safe in the Pilot (at least I thought she did) that there was a keeper of the tapes that would ensure that the information on the tapes would come out if they didn't follow the rules. So if there's an ominous keeper, they're going to do as they're told to protect themselves. But in the episode, it seemed clear that at least Courtney knew that Tony was the keeper of the tapes. Why aren't the gang freaking out over Tony's knowledge the same way they're freaking out about Clay finding out? Why is Tony keeping this secret for them when he's got nothing to hide? Why is Tony just being Clay's Yoda through all of this instead of taking some action himself? I get that he feels a lot of guilt over not answering the door when Hannah left the tapes, but there's this clear lack of action and motive that (a) leaves a gaping hole in the plot for me and (b) prevents Tony from feeling like a real character.

[Lady Calypso]

I sympathize with Courtney in her fear to accept her sexuality. She knows firsthand what being gay entails with her dads so I totally get it. It doesn't mean that I like her and her attitude. Her fakeness toward Clay is what makes it worse. 

[Lady Calypso]

41 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

Okay, the drama revolving around the tapes is making my head hurt. It makes sense that the kids were passing along the tapes after they finished hearing them, because Hannah explained some sort of fail safe in the Pilot (at least I thought she did) that there was a keeper of the tapes that would ensure that the information on the tapes would come out if they didn't follow the rules. So if there's an ominous keeper, they're going to do as they're told to protect themselves. But in the episode, it seemed clear that at least Courtney knew that Tony was the keeper of the tapes. Why aren't the gang freaking out over Tony's knowledge the same way they're freaking out about Clay finding out? Why is Tony keeping this secret for them when he's got nothing to hide? Why is Tony just being Clay's Yoda through all of this instead of taking some action himself? I get that he feels a lot of guilt over not answering the door when Hannah left the tapes, but there's this clear lack of action and motive that (a) leaves a gaping hole in the plot for me and (b) prevents Tony from feeling like a real character.

I do agree. When Tony was telling Clay about why he was the keeper of the second set of tapes, it did feel like a weak motivation. I wanted a little more to it, other than "I didn't answer the door when Hannah came by before she killed herself". I think they could have definitely gone deeper with Tony. I still like him as a character, but there's something missing there that they should have included. Unfortunately, I don't know what they could have done to make it better.

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, Lady Calypso said:

I sympathize with Courtney in her fear to accept her sexuality. She knows firsthand what being gay entails with her dads so I totally get it. It doesn't mean that I like her and her attitude. Her fakeness toward Clay is what makes it worse. 

Yeah, I understand and even sympathize with Courtney's fears. It's really too bad she didn't choose to unite with Hannah instead of throwing her under the bus. At least she would've had an ally and they could've worked together to repair both their reputations. Instead, it just managed to ruin both of them more. But, that's how we learn, right?

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I do agree. When Tony was telling Clay about why he was the keeper of the second set of tapes, it did feel like a weak motivation. I wanted a little more to it, other than "I didn't answer the door when Hannah came by before she killed herself". I think they could have definitely gone deeper with Tony. I still like him as a character, but there's something missing there that they should have included. Unfortunately, I don't know what they could have done to make it better.

Once it was revealed, I understood Tony's motivations--since he felt like he failed Hannah once, he didn't want to fail her again--but Tony just doesn't feel realistic to me. Putting aside the actor is too old to be a teenager, (that's hardly unusual) I think it's just that he behaved and talked older than his years.

[Ikki]

On 4/2/2017 at 9:45 PM, truthaboutluv said:

Finally, I have to head to the Book thread because I feel like there were a number of things in the series that weren't in the book. Because I read the book years ago and a rarity for me, I didn't remember much about it after, other than Hannah left tapes and there were these 13 reasons why she killed herself. I know she ended up liking Clay and his tape turned out to be different than the others but I didn't really remember anything more than that, other than when I was done, feeling like I actually didn't get why she killed herself.

Like not to minimize someone's pain but that the things she mentioned just didn't seem that big and I can't imagine I would have thought that if she'd been raped. I feel like I remembered reading the book and coming away thinking that her main reason for killing herself seemed to be that she felt like most of the people on the list didn't care enough or see her enough. So it's possible that I just completely blanked out on the story and don't remember the book very well at all or the series added some major things that weren't in the book. 

I just read the part of the book with Hannah and Bryce for myself. (I hope this is fine to post here rather than the book thread; I'm going to talk about both a little bit.)

Basically: Hannah was raped. However, the book portrayal seems a lot less explicit to me than the show portrayal of the rape. If you first read the book, like I did, when you were younger and had less of an understanding of consent, you might not have seen it as rape. I don't think I did. I don't even think Hannah did.

What she says in the book is: "For everyone listening, let me be clear. I did not say no or push his hand away. All I did was turn my head, clench my teeth, and fight back tears. And he saw that. He even told me to relax." She talks about "giving in to [her] reputation" and such throughout, but she doesn't consent and repeatedly describes these clear non-verbals. I think she was very conflicted about how to classify what happened, and I think to some extent that was also the case on the show. Like, on the show I think she clearly knew that she hadn't wanted it (that she "didn't make a decision") and that it was wrong, but she may have been struggling to label it as rape, which is very common for survivors.

I think it's good that the show makes this more explicit. I remember after I read the books, I read some reviews that mentioned how nothing that happened to Hannah actually seemed like "that big a deal" or whatever. By the time I read the book, I had been sexually assaulted, but I didn't tell anyone and was actively trying to repress it, relabel it, deny it, whatever, and I read those reviews with a mindset of, "Okay, no big deal." (I remember one review in particular that said, "with the exception of what happened in chapter nine," which was the part with Jessica's rape, but what happened to Hannah wasn't seen the same way.)

I really liked the way the show portrayed Hannah's reasons. Like I think it made it both clear and understandable how much these things hurt her-- all of them, not just the ones someone might label as "major." As much as I liked the book, and I did really like the book, I think I like the show more.

[absnow54]

Putting aside the actor is too old to be a teenager, (that's hardly unusual) I think it's just that he behaved and talked older than his years.

I was convinced he was an undercover cop when Clay caught him visiting the Bakers, he just looks so old, and being the all-knowing-guide to Clay does him no favors (although I had the same comical "really?" at Zack Dempsey when he was playing basket ball and just destroying everyone else on the court because the actor is very obviously 26 pushing around a bunch of 20 year old extras.) I really like Tony, but all the other characters are so complex, and it feels like they exist with and without Clay around. At this point I wouldn't be surprised if Tony were just a figment of Clay's imagination since he only seems to exist when Clay needs him, and he's always RIGHT THERE. I just don't buy someone so soulful and mature getting caught up in this cover up. Maybe if they explored Tony's darker side, like beating up the kid who hurt his sister, it would give him more motivation to keep quiet, since that's the only thing he's tried to hide so far.

[DittyDotDot]

11 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

I was convinced he was an undercover cop when Clay caught him visiting the Bakers

Heh, when I first saw that scene I wondered if he wasn't a private detective the Bakers had hired, but it didn't make sense since he clearly knew Clay and some of the other players.

12 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

Maybe if they explored Tony's darker side, like beating up the kid who hurt his sister, it would give him more motivation to keep quiet, since that's the only thing he's tried to hide so far.

All I can say is keep watching. Tony does have a reason why he's doing what he's doing. I don't know if it's necessarily a good reason, but it did make sense to me when it was revealed.

[stagmania]

On 4/2/2017 at 8:45 AM, ban1o said:

mmm ok what was the purpose of having Hannah lie about Zach throwing away the letter was it to show she's unreliable and since she was suicidal at that point she somewhat exaggerated what happened. I've finished the show but I'm till wondering why she lied about that. 

On 4/2/2017 at 9:00 AM, Lady Calypso said:

I've been thinking about this myself. I do like how Hannah, at the end of it all, is an unreliable narrator and even her truth is not always the right truth. I think, maybe from her point of view, him doing nothing after reading the letter was the equivalent to him tossing the letter away. From her perspective, especially through her broken mind at the time of recording the tapes, Zach is another person who let her down, who didn't do anything to prove to her that she was worth it. 

I agree, and I think the point of Hannah getting a few details wrong is just to show us that we all have our own biased perspective, and even if we don't intend to lie we may twist things in our own memories to fit the narrative we believe. She feels that no one cared about her, so in her memories, all the details point to that. But maybe she did pull away from Jessica and Alex as much as they pulled away from her, and maybe Zach did care about her but wasn't able to show her in a way she could understand. Ultimately, I don't think the small inaccuracies matter much except that they serve to enhance the tragedy even further-Hannah wasn't quite as all alone as she thought she was. What's important for storytelling purposes is that we understand Hannah's truth, and I think that's definitely what we're getting.

Now that I'm past the halfway point, the sense of dread is definitely building. Something really bad is coming; I can feel it. The Hannah/Clay romance scenes are pretty excruciating, given the context of her death. I worry about his ability to survive whatever he's about to find out.

[truthaboutluv]

1 hour ago, Ikki said:

If you first read the book, like I did, when you were younger and had less of an understanding of consent, you might not have seen it as rape.

Thanks for the quote. Age and understanding of consent was definitely not the issue for me. For whatever reason, maybe it was the quality of writing of the book, I just didn't really connect with it as much as I thought I would and I honestly didn't remember much of anything about it. Honestly, I wasn't even sure a character called Bryce even existed. I've considered re-reading the book since watching the series because I really enjoyed the series. So it's possible I may connect to the book better this time. 

[Anela]

2 hours ago, absnow54 said:

I was convinced he was an undercover cop when Clay caught him visiting the Bakers, he just looks so old, and being the all-knowing-guide to Clay does him no favors (although I had the same comical "really?" at Zack Dempsey when he was playing basket ball and just destroying everyone else on the court because the actor is very obviously 26 pushing around a bunch of 20 year old extras.) I really like Tony, but all the other characters are so complex, and it feels like they exist with and without Clay around. At this point I wouldn't be surprised if Tony were just a figment of Clay's imagination since he only seems to exist when Clay needs him, and he's always RIGHT THERE. I just don't buy someone so soulful and mature getting caught up in this cover up. Maybe if they explored Tony's darker side, like beating up the kid who hurt his sister, it would give him more motivation to keep quiet, since that's the only thing he's tried to hide so far.

I thought he was a teacher, or policeman, at first. What with the way the other kids took off, when he showed up to protect Clay. 

[Anela]

What I've been getting from it, is that she was almost as alone as she felt, in terms of people not wanting to deal with her "drama". It seems like she's always being accused of that, when she's trying to communicate. 

[tennisgurl]

You know, you could really take the message of this show as "Don't ever try to make friends or show romantic interest in anyone, ever. They will inevitably become an asshole, make your life worse, or only be using you from the start."

My high school did something super similar to the Valentines Day thing. I actually got matched with one of my friends boyfriend! Awkward. The whole day after, the school was full of people trying desperately to avoid eye contact with each other.

[stagmania]

You can really feel the effort to flesh out the book narrative in these middle eps. Ryan and Zack's stories, in particular, don't feel meaty enough to sustain their own episodes, so the padding really becomes obvious. 

Also, how bad is Clay's gaydar? I mean, wow.

[Anela]

Oh, Clay. :( 

[justcris]

I'm confused that just last episode Tino asked Clay if he'd ever seen a dead body and Clay is just like, oh yeah i've been to funerals and stuff, and didn't even mention Jeff! Am I mixing my episodes up? I thought that was weird.

[stagmania]

I really didn't buy Sheri's freak out over hitting the stop sign, and the subsequent rush to flee the scene. She wasn't drunk, she didn't damage the car, and no one was hurt. Everything we know about her says she would've done the responsible thing and called in the accident. 

As soon as I saw the car wreck I knew someone else was dead, and quickly realized that it must be Jeff if it was another person who would matter a lot to Clay. Once I figured that out, I realized he'd only ever appeared in flashbacks. Well done, awful twist.

[Whimsy]

13 minutes ago, stagmania said:

She wasn't drunk, she didn't damage the car, and no one was hurt. 

She had been drinking, though. She probably shouldn't have been driving. 

[DittyDotDot]

40 minutes ago, GenL said:

She had been drinking, though. She probably shouldn't have been driving. 

And, she's underage, so it doesn't matter if she's legally drunk or not. Plus, she wasn't paying attention. She was rifling through her bag for her phone for Hannah. I think she could've been cited for, at the very least, minor in possession; possibly reckless driving.

However, IMO, what she should've done is simply call in the stop sign was down. She didn't need to report it was her who knocked it over. That way they could've sent someone out there to put the sign back up.

It may not have changed anything though. Jeff couldn't have been very far behind Sherri and Hannah, so there probably wasn't time for the sign to get put back up. But, I think that's the point. Sherri feels guilty because she did nothing and other people got hurt as a consequence. At least if she had reported it, she could've said she did something.

Edited April 5, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Anela]

On 4/3/2017 at 11:42 PM, Lady Calypso said:

Oh yeah, I totally agree with this. Justin's hatred toward Clay definitely feels like it stems from pure jealousy. Which is why I feel weird for feeling sorry for him at all and actually wanting to watch more of his arc. I feel dirty for being even somewhat supportive of this asshole, who has led the charge on some of the actions against Clay. But this show has completely surprised me with how easy it is to feel sympathetic to even this guy. Plus, the actor was actually really good. I'm surprised this is his first major role, and only second role total. 

Same here. I can't believe I was sympathizing with him, in the last two episodes. I also think his hatred of Clay stemmed from jealousy - not that a guy like that would admit it (at least at that age). 

After the last episode, and finding out that a friend of mine had made it through five episodes, I sent her a message telling her she might want to be careful with the last four episodes - that was brutal, and I've never been through what Jessica and Hannah endured. 

*edited. Sorry, it's too personal. 

I don't know if I'd want a season two. The adults now know what happened. I don't want to possibly sit through a school shooting. I read part of a book on Columbine, a couple of years ago, and I was a mess. 

Edited April 5, 2017 by Anela

[Zima]

Anytime Hannah starts to make a new friend, I want to yell, "NO, STOP! EVERYONE IS TERRIBLE!"

[BellyLaughter]

On 2 April 2017 at 0:06 PM, Calamity Jane said:

Watched 'em all - reminiscent of American Crime Story season about a rape in a high school, with a dash of It's a Wonderful Life, plus every teen drama ever made, deeply moving in some places, oddly irritating in others, but it was impossible to take my eyes off of.  I can agree with reviewers who think it was too long - so much filler and so much of poor old Clay staring bemusedly into the distance, but it was completely addictive.  Although the door is open for Season 2, I don't know if I would watch it.  Without Hannah, the others are not sympathetic enough to keep me going for 13 hours, all of Clay's positive qualities notwithstanding.  Maybe I'll care more about the unresolved issues left after I've had time to process it all more.  I'm glad I'm retired so I could watch straight through.  

Glad I'm not the only one who struggled with the pacing at times.....I really found the storty compelling but every now and then I was driven crazy by pacing....like Clay taking 30 seconds to turn the tape over???  Nitpicking I know but binging over 13 episodes it stands out so much more.  

[Wizhuzhu]

34 minutes ago, BellyLaughter said:

Glad I'm not the only one who struggled with the pacing at times.....I really found the storty compelling but every now and then I was driven crazy by pacing....like Clay taking 30 seconds to turn the tape over???  Nitpicking I know but binging over 13 episodes it stands out so much more.  

This is one of the things I'd get annoyed at Clay at. I genuinely thought the show as a whole was really good and interesting, but goodness was Clay slow and draggy... I know it's not his fault, it's just the pacing but I got annoyed nonetheless. For example, he keeps on asking others what happens next, why etc. and I'd be restraining myself from yelling at the screen for him to just go through the tapes, and get the answers himself. It is funny though, how some of the other characters even told him to do just that.

[DittyDotDot]

16 minutes ago, Wizhuzhu said:

This is one of the things I'd get annoyed at Clay at. I genuinely thought the show as a whole was really good and interesting, but goodness was Clay slow and draggy... I know it's not his fault, it's just the pacing but I got annoyed nonetheless. For example, he keeps on asking others what happens next, why etc. and I'd be restraining myself from yelling at the screen for him to just go through the tapes, and get the answers himself. It is funny though, how some of the other characters even told him to do just that.

I don't know, I don't think I could take listening to 13 hours of my friend talking about the reasons she wanted to kill herself without shutting it off here and there. It's just too much. And, not everything Hannah had to say was the whole truth. I think it was actually smart of Clay to go ask other people their POV so he could get a better picture of it all.

Plus, these were Hannah's last words. I don't think he wanted to disrespect her memory by breezing through to the end just to find out what happened, like everyone else seemed to do, but he really wanted to understand what happened. So, yeah, I didn't have a problem with Clay taking so long to listen to the tapes. I think it would've taken me longer to do it if I were in his shoes, myself.

Edited April 5, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[niklj]

On 4/1/2017 at 3:57 PM, ban1o said:

Yeah I've been thinking something similar. Also the suicide scene was just so graphic... I don't know how someone contemplating suicide would react to it. I almost feel like it romanticizes suicide in a way. They should have made it clear she had other options and what those were. 

The cast and crew were also very conscious of this.

From an interview with Dylan Minnette (Clay):

Quote

Minnette added “We are not glorifying these acts. By forcing you to watch, by forcing you to flinch and feel heartbroken and devastated and disturbed … The only way to do it is to break your heart because that’s real life.”

It didn't have any sad soundtrack, weird fades, and didn't cut away from the painful aspects to make it look beautiful. It was just quiet, harsh, and Clay specifically narrates that she died alone. I think for some people in that mental state, there are no other options. She took her counselor visit as her last option and he let her down. I thought it was a well-done scene and while I wanted to look away, I felt I would be doing the character an injustice somehow. They did a good job at making hard to watch scenes that force you to understand and not just turn away like some of the characters do in this show.

What an impactful story. It really makes you evaluate how you treat others and has been the best illustration I've seen yet of how the smallest thing can affect things in the biggest way.

@Anela Thank you for sharing your story. After watching this show, it's not really easy to know what to say, but just know you have someone that's rooting for you here.

[stagmania]

On 4/3/2017 at 11:31 PM, truthaboutluv said:

Honestly, I couldn't understand where Justin's seeming hatred and rage towards Clay, right from the start, came from. It was almost like he resented Clay for, in a sense, getting off easy on the tapes with Hannah basically saying that Clay really didn't belong on them because at the end of it all, he really was just a genuinely nice guy.

Much of the supporting characters' behavior and words to Clay in the first 10 episodes made little sense, because they were designed to create confusion and anticipation about what was going to be on Clay's tape. If you go back and review the things they said to him, knowing what you do now about his tape, it's mostly nonsense (especially where Tony is concerned). Very sloppy work from the creators. Red herrings and misdirection are part of any mystery, but the smart way to do it is to have interactions loaded with ambiguity, not outright bs that falls apart in retrospect.

Frankly, the fact that Hannah would let Clay believe she blamed him for her death for 11 tapes was more than a little cruel, considering how she felt about him. Though I think that may have been more of a pacing problem...

1 hour ago, BellyLaughter said:

Glad I'm not the only one who struggled with the pacing at times.....I really found the storty compelling but every now and then I was driven crazy by pacing....like Clay taking 30 seconds to turn the tape over???  Nitpicking I know but binging over 13 episodes it stands out so much more.  

 

37 minutes ago, Wizhuzhu said:

This is one of the things I'd get annoyed at Clay at. I genuinely thought the show as a whole was really good and interesting, but goodness was Clay slow and draggy... I know it's not his fault, it's just the pacing but I got annoyed nonetheless. For example, he keeps on asking others what happens next, why etc. and I'd be restraining myself from yelling at the screen for him to just go through the tapes, and get the answers himself. It is funny though, how some of the other characters even told him to do just that.

The fact that it took so long for Clay to listen to the tapes, and that he essentially had a mental breakdown while doing so, makes Hannah seem cruel to him in ways that I don't think were intended. My understanding is that he listened to them all right away in the book, but that the show needed to stretch it out to fit their episodic format. There were some consequences of that choice that didn't seem all that well-considered, and many of them changed the way I saw the characters. They could've easily cut at least three episodes and made the story a lot tighter and kept the characterizations a little more intact.

All that said, I liked this show and think there was some really great stuff underneath the unfortunate structural choices. Clay and Hannah were wonderful characters (played by very impressive actors), and the show managed to explore the small (and massive) cruelties teenagers endure and inflict on each other in a way that felt very true. Hannah's story was all too familiar while still feeling singular to her particular experience. And for that reason, I really hope they won't do a season 2. 

[General Days]

On 4/3/2017 at 11:42 PM, Lady Calypso said:

Oh yeah, I totally agree with this. Justin's hatred toward Clay definitely feels like it stems from pure jealousy. Which is why I feel weird for feeling sorry for him at all and actually wanting to watch more of his arc. I feel dirty for being even somewhat supportive of this asshole, who has led the charge on some of the actions against Clay. But this show has completely surprised me with how easy it is to feel sympathetic to even this guy. Plus, the actor was actually really good. I'm surprised this is his first major role, and only second role total. 

I so agree. I hated Justin and totally bled for him. This kid had no tools to deal with this shit.

3 hours ago, Anela said:

Same here. I can't believe I was sympathizing with him, in the last two episodes. I also think his hatred of Clay stemmed from jealousy - not that a guy like that would admit it (at least at that age). 

After the last episode, and finding out that a friend of mine had made it through five episodes, I sent her a message telling her she might want to be careful with the last four episodes - that was brutal, and I've never been through what Jessica and Hannah endured. 

I have been suicidal, and the way she did it was similar to the way I planned. Only I was going to leave the shower running, so there wouldn't be a big mess. I can't believe I'm talking about this part. I'll probably edit it out. 

I don't know if I'd want a season two. The adults now know what happened. I don't want to possibly sit through a school shooting. I read part of a book on Columbine, a couple of years ago, and I was a mess. 

Anela, thank you for sharing this with us. Edit it out, if you want, but I just want you to know I read it. I'm glad you're still here. 

I'm with you on a season two. While I'm pretty attached to Clay, I don't/can't imagine a season two without Hannah. She was *the* reason. 

[tennisgurl]

Its a bit funny that Hannah, after she yelled at Zach, she told him that she should "get over it" on the tape, when its been shown over and over that telling someone to "get over" someone hurting their feelings is a really shitty thing to do. Yeah Zach's popular, but it would still suck if a girl you liked called you stupid and yelled at you to fuck off in front of the half the school. Not that it made it alright for him to steal her notes, but I can at least understand that he felt hurt.

Not that I think its a failure in the writing, its just that Hannah isn't a perfect sainted victim. She can be not super nice too, even if her reasons are more understandable (after her experiences with those guys, I don't blame her for being defensive. It just seems like Zach might have been for real), and her memories aren't perfect. In her head, Zach coldly tossed the note, and in reality, he was just unable to deal with the intense emotions she was unloading onto him. It makes you wonder if other things she has said in the tapes are totally true. I did feel bad for Zach here. His mom seems really pushy, his friends treat him like crap, and Clay only gets actual revenge on him, even though he seems like he feels worse than any of his friends about what happened. Get better friends, dude.

Someone tell Clay to get back on his meds! I have no idea what those meds are for, or if they work, but he clearly needs something! I have to wonder how this all looks to the foreign exchange kids he was showing around. From their perspective, some twitchy American kid just started randomly screaming about someone killing themselves, and how much everyone sucked. They don't know Hannah, they don't have any context! They're just having a really weird first day.

[BellyLaughter]

I think I should clarify that my issues with the pacing weren't over the fact that he took his time to listen to the tapes it was more in the standing around starring, taking an eternity to respond to other characters, the deliberately methodical way they had him handle the tapes....it's extreme nitpicking I know but at times it really took me out of the moment.  

As for Clay taking his time to listen to the tapes....that I am more sympathetic about. 

[mledawn]

I binge watched this series and thought it did drag a bit in spots, however; the final episode did well and left it open for a second series with Tyler continuing to be the total creep show. He and Bryce were the worst - Tyler continued to see himself as a victim and downplay his role in anything, while Bryce was obviously just an abhorrent human.

The suicide scene was horrible and I had to ffwd through it. The anguish of the parents was gutwrenching and well done on behalf of those actors.

And finally, after a visit to Wikipedia, I learned that Dylan Minnette and Liam James are not the same person, as I originally thought.

[truthaboutluv]

3 hours ago, stagmania said:

My understanding is that he listened to them all right away in the book, but that the show needed to stretch it out to fit their episodic format.

Yeah he listened to them all the first night but he still had to wait hours to find out what he could have done because he was number 11 in the book. So that was basically ten hours of listening before he had an answer regarding himself and his actions towards Hannah. 

By the way, considering how heavy the series was, I was grateful for the few light-hearted moments, like a number of Clay's scenes with Jeff. I especially loved the "unique" scene, where Jeff just couldn't seem to get why using the word repeatedly to describe things, was redundant. That was funny. I also loved the scene when Tony told Clay he was gay. That whole sequence cracked me up. 

I sort of liked how the show wasn't verbalizing it for a number of episodes but not so subtly making it clear that Tony was gay. But I cracked up when Tony went, "Clay, you know I'm gay right" when Clay asked if he was in love with Hannah and Clay's response was, "why would I know that?" And when Tony asked him if he thought he used to just hang out with Ryan as friends and Clay shrugs, saying, "I guess..."

On the one hand, I guess you could say it kind of spoke to Clay's cluelessness and lack of observation skills, evidenced by some of his interactions with Hannah. But on the other hand, I kind of like that he didn't make assumptions. Like in his mind, why shouldn't Tony hang out with Ryan and that doing so didn't mean he was gay. Still, the number of times he spoke to Tony with what was obviously his boyfriend there, really makes Clay seem either very clueless or that self absorbed at times. 

Edited April 5, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[Wizhuzhu]

5 hours ago, BellyLaughter said:

I think I should clarify that my issues with the pacing weren't over the fact that he took his time to listen to the tapes it was more in the standing around starring, taking an eternity to respond to other characters, the deliberately methodical way they had him handle the tapes....it's extreme nitpicking I know but at times it really took me out of the moment.  

As for Clay taking his time to listen to the tapes....that I am more sympathetic about. 

Oh that got to me too...I mean, I can understand why they made him do these things, but I can't help myself from feeling like, "Okay can you hurry up please." Quite impatient I guess.

[absnow54]

However, IMO, what she should've done is simply call in the stop sign was down. She didn't need to report it was her who knocked it over. That way they could've sent someone out there to put the sign back up.

There was also a giant tree that they could have propped the sign up against. I understand Sherri was freaking out because she's underage and even if she wasn't legally drunk, there's zero tolerance for teens, but I don't think they really conveyed that, and that's unfortunate because it doesn't make her actions right, but it at least gives an otherwise smart and nice character motive. There was no reason why Sherri couldn't call it in and then want to take off before the cops showed up and I could see Hannah arguing that they should stay, but really, what were they going to do exactly? Direct traffic in the middle of the night? It was really shitty to leave a drunk Hannah behind like that though.

[truthaboutluv]

I think those things were worse if you were binge watching the show like I did and sounds like many in the thread did. I do think having the other characters' perspectives, e.g. Justin, Jessica, etc. while Clay was having his emotional journey to get through the tapes, helped make the series not drag too much.

[absnow54]

And finally, after a visit to Wikipedia, I learned that Dylan Minnette and Liam James are not the same person, as I originally thought.

I had been wondering if Logan Lerman was ever going to grow out of teen roles until I realized that Dylan Minnette had seamlessly stepped into his place.

[Whimsy]

I really liked this series.  I think it is weighing more heavily on me and I can't stop thinking about it because I started watching it on the three year anniversary of the day that a friend of my daughter's took her own life because she was bullied.  I didn't deliberately start it that same day, but once I realized it was the same day it just made me it so much more poignant.  I am also friendly with her mother, and the way that her daughter's suicide has completely destroyed her and her family made me weep openly every time they showed Hannah's mother.  I thought the acting was great- for the most part.  I changed my opinion of several characters throughout the episodes, and I think that is a real testament to the young actors.  I really liked Clay because he was totally the type of boy I would've crushed on hard in high school.   

I think a season 2 is a stretch, but I'll watch it anyway to see where these characters go.

[stagmania]

8 hours ago, BellyLaughter said:

I think I should clarify that my issues with the pacing weren't over the fact that he took his time to listen to the tapes it was more in the standing around starring, taking an eternity to respond to other characters, the deliberately methodical way they had him handle the tapes....it's extreme nitpicking I know but at times it really took me out of the moment.  

As for Clay taking his time to listen to the tapes....that I am more sympathetic about. 

Yeah, I am sympathetic to Clay's reasons for taking his time. My issue with the pacing is more about what it necessitated from the other characters to pad out the time, and how it reflected back on Hannah.

27 minutes ago, GenL said:

I really liked this series.  I think it is weighing more heavily on me and I can't stop thinking about it because I started watching it on the three year anniversary of the day that a friend of my daughter's took her own life because she was bullied.  I didn't deliberately start it that same day, but once I realized it was the same day it just made me it so much more poignant.  I am also friendly with her mother, and the way that her daughter's suicide has completely destroyed her and her family made me weep openly every time they showed Hannah's mother.  I thought the acting was great- for the most part.  I changed my opinion of several characters throughout the episodes, and I think that is a real testament to the young actors.  I really liked Clay because he was totally the type of boy I would've crushed on hard in high school.   

I'm so sorry to hear about your daughter's friend. I thought the show did an amazing job of showing the wreckage Hannah left behind, particularly for her parents. I hope no young people will walk away from this show with a romanticized idea of suicide; it seems that they really tried to make the audience feel how much it hurt everyone involved.

[saltylemon]

God, this show just rips your heart out doesn't it? That last scene with Bryce texting Jessica and her breakdown. Ouch, that fucking hurts! ?

[fountain]

I am enjoying the show overall but I guess because I am in my 40s I find some of the teen angst over the top.  I think Hannah seems to be purposely hurting people even though from my perspective she wasn't really wronged.  I haven't seen any kind of bullying or poor treatment really, publishing the poem was a dick move but it seemed to blow over. She doesn't seem friendless, lots of people talk to her, she gets invited to parties, etc.

The stop sign happened but even me as an adult wouldn't think you need to call 911 to report a sign down, I would call 311 my city info line.  Drivers are supposed to be looking at intersections and should be able to see the sign on the ground and no signs on the cross street.  I have seen many signs down in my life and didn't just drive straight through.  Plus it was a side street where people should be driving slow.

I am starting to think Hannah has some sort of personality disorder like borderline or maybe it is just the depression but she seems "wronged" by everything and everyone.  My sister was like this as a teen and still as an adult so maybe for me Hannah hits too much on my dramatic upbringing with my sister.  

[Guest]

Clay's not annoying me yet but Hannah is.  The snarky narration and the too-cutesy chatter by the girls was too much this ep.  My teen who sat and watched ep 1 with me pretty much did her nails through this episode.  I can tell she's losing interest.  

These high school kids sure do have a lot of money and tattoos.  You need a parent's release for tats when you'ree under 18.  I can't imagine signing off on Jason's big chest/arm tats or Tony's neck ones.  Well, I wouldn't sign for any but I know parents that do for something small, tasteful and hidden.  

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, fountain said:

I am enjoying the show overall but I guess because I am in my 40s I find some of the teen angst over the top.  I think Hannah seems to be purposely hurting people even though from my perspective she wasn't really wronged.  I haven't seen any kind of bullying or poor treatment really, publishing the poem was a dick move but it seemed to blow over. She doesn't seem friendless, lots of people talk to her, she gets invited to parties, etc.

The stop sign happened but even me as an adult wouldn't think you need to call 911 to report a sign down, I would call 311 my city info line.  Drivers are supposed to be looking at intersections and should be able to see the sign on the ground and no signs on the cross street.  I have seen many signs down in my life and didn't just drive straight through.  Plus it was a side street where people should be driving slow.

I am starting to think Hannah has some sort of personality disorder like borderline or maybe it is just the depression but she seems "wronged" by everything and everyone.  My sister was like this as a teen and still as an adult so maybe for me Hannah hits too much on my dramatic upbringing with my sister.  

I will say that there is bigger things to come and Hannah does start to isolate herself more, but I think that's kinda the point of the whole show. No one commits suicide over just one thing, but the accumulation of many little minor things. Alone, any of these things seem rather silly, but piled on top of each other they start to weigh someone down.

And there is a reason why most people don't understand why someone would kill themselves in hindsight. It always seems so small potatoes in comparison to such a finite decision as suicide. But, to that person in that moment, it feels to them like it's so big they can't see anything else. What the show does most, IMO, is remind us that what we might perceive as nothing effected someone else profoundly.

[heatherchandler]

I thought I recognized that bridge!  I checked to see where this was filmed, and it was indeed near Vallejo, San Rafael and Sebastopol, CA.  I have family there and I definitely recognized the look.  I have been thinking about moving there myself, and watching this is making me want to even more!  

[heatherchandler]

Clay is annoying, but I am not sure if I am annoyed by the actor or the role.  I think this actor is in Goosebumps and my kids watch that A LOT.  Maybe he is nailing the role, making Clay annoying and weird.  

[Guest]

I only know him from playing Jack's son in Lost many years ago.  I kind of like him.  He has such a deep voice, and did even back then.  

[btho1776]

Wow! I just finished the final episode. Emotions are raw. I am 37 like another poster. This series was as honest as I know to be. It brought back memories of my high school days I locked away for years. I know it has helped me to heal, even now as an adult with a teenage son. I recommended he watch it as well. I think it will open people up to talk more honestly with one another. Great show!!!

[Readalot]

I finished yesterday and started re watching today. Can't beleive how much I missed the first time around. - I attended HS in the 80's and I can say there is no comparison to HS nowadays. The instant texting and picture sharing and SM sure do make a difference.