S04.E16: What If...

[Sgzoo]

To those guessing when Bahrain took place it was mentioned in the Season 2 episode Melinda.  In the scene with May and Andrew in the shower it says "seven years earlier". Season 2 was 2014/2015 therefore Bahrain was 2007 or 2008.

Also from wikipedia

"In flashbacks to 2008, Coulson and May travelled to Bahrain to confront an enhanced individual named Eva Belyakov, who possesses super-strength."

Edited April 6, 2017 by Sgzoo

[hello]

Quote

"one of the inherent flaws of the Framework... how do you give everyone what they want"

I don't think that's it? I think the Framework just removes a person's greatest regret so they become too complacent in the Framework to challenge it. May was a lot of trouble before Radcliffe figured out how to keep her mind from fighting against the Framework.

Quote

We saw Coulson spout the party line that Hydra wasn't connected to Nazis and that it was thousands of years old. It could be that in the Framework, Hydra's evolution didn't come about from within the 1940s SHIELD

Didn't we learn that real-world HYDRA, in one incarnation or another, WAS thousands of years old? I remember FitzSimmons discovering a series of images from different time periods that were all indicators that HYDRA was ancient, and intent on freeing Hive from his blue-moon prison.

[TVSpectator]

46 minutes ago, hello said:

I don't think that's it? I think the Framework just removes a person's greatest regret so they become too complacent in the Framework to challenge it. May was a lot of trouble before Radcliffe figured out how to keep her mind from fighting against the Framework.

Didn't we learn that real-world HYDRA, in one incarnation or another, WAS thousands of years old? I remember FitzSimmons discovering a series of images from different time periods that were all indicators that HYDRA was ancient, and intent on freeing Hive from his blue-moon prison.

 

 

 

Hydra is whatever the writers feel like it should be or what the story is calling it. In both the comics and also on TV/Movies. In the movies, it can be argued that they were using the Nazi government as a means to get what they actually wanted- world domination.  But, in Season 3 and also in the comics they were also a really old branch. On TV they were the Hive cult (or at least a part of them) while in the comics their history is much older and much more complicated and they even tie that origins story to SHIELD's as well and to The Hand. 

 

In the comics (and in summary), they were part of some ancient group known as the "The Brotherhood of the Spear" while SHIELD came from the group known as "The Brotherhood of the SHIELD) and yeah it dates back to Ancient Egypt and an alien invasion by the Brood. To make matters even weirder and more complex they are also tied to The Hand (in the MCU they are currently on the Netflix side of the MCU, btw), which was 800+ years older than Hydra and they were infiltrated (centuries prior) by a cult that worshiped a demon known as "The Beast". Later the Nazi branch was founded by some Hand members and Whitehall and Hydra were tied to Nazi Germany while The Hand was tied to Imperial Japan. So, yeah, it's complex in the comics, and I am not sure if this is the 100% true (because they are kind of always changing it up) and/or all of it, but I do know it's close. 

48 minutes ago, Sgzoo said:

To those guessing when Bahrain took place it was mentioned in the Season 2 episode Melinda.  In the scene with May and Andrew in the shower it says "seven years earlier". Season 2 was 2014/2015 therefore Bahrain was 2007 or 2008.

 

 

 

I thought that Bahrain took place in the late 1990s and/or early 2000s? If not I can see it happening in 2007 (which would be the early 2000s, btw) because SHIELD still didn't know what they were dealing with and I doubt that Iron Man happened (and I always thought that the events of Iron Man 1 took place in 2008?)-right?

Edited April 6, 2017 by TVSpectator

[Humbugged]

6 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

Hydra is whatever the writers feel like it should be or what the story is calling it. In both the comics and also on TV/Movies. In the movies, it can be argued that they were using the Nazi government as a means to get what they actually wanted- world domination.  But, in Season 3 and also in the comics they were also a really old branch. On TV they were the Hive cult (or at least a part of them) while in the comics their history is much older and much more complicated and they even tie that origins story to SHIELD's as well and to The Hand. 

 

In the comics (and in summary), they were part of some ancient group known as the "The Brotherhood of the Spear" while SHIELD came from the group known as "The Brotherhood of the SHIELD) and yeah it dates back to Ancient Egypt and an alien invasion by the Brood. To make matters even weirder and more complex they are also tied to The Hand (in the MCU they are currently on the Netflix side of the MCU, btw), which was 800+ years older than Hydra and they were infiltrated (centuries prior) by a cult that worshiped a demon known as "The Beast". Later the Nazi branch was founded by some Hand members and Whitehall and Hydra were tied to Nazi Germany while The Hand was tied to Imperial Japan. So, yeah, it's complex in the comics, and I am not sure if this is the 100% true (because they are kind of always changing it up) and/or all of it, but I do know it's close. 

I thought that Bahrain took place in the late 1990s and/or early 2000s? If not I can see it happening in 2007 (which would be the early 2000s, btw) because SHIELD still didn't know what they were dealing with and I doubt that Iron Man happened (and I always thought that the events of Iron Man 1 took place in 2008?)-right?

In the episode Bahrain they mentioned while onboard the plane on the way there that Coulson had just been tasked to start the Avengers Initiative. They implied that when May went off to grow the red tape and Phil went off to wrangle Stark at the same time

[Sandman]

12 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

We saw Coulson spout the party line that Hydra wasn't connected to Nazis and that it was thousands of years old.

It amused and disturbed me that Coulson offered the fact that Hydra existed before the Nazi Party as proof that Hydra were not Nazis -- that's damnably poor logic. It appears from the original (non-Framework) continuity that Hydra existed (or claimed to have existed) for millennia, AND that it was embedded in the Nazi power structure -- but even without that, no one said that the Nazis created Hydra. Not only is Framework!Phil a weak-willed collaborator, he's a bad teacher.

[Chicago Redshirt]

I think it's a given that real Hydra did exist well prior to the 40s, based on what we saw last season.

I am operating under the assumption that Phil was telling his student what he did in order to prevent him from being shipped off to a gulag as a subversive.

[tennisgurl]

Interesting that in the Evil Universe, Fitz is some kind of medical doctor, instead of an engineer like in the Real Universe. Maybe he went to Evil Medical School with Dr. Evil?

I'm also a bit concerned about Fitz being hooked up to the Matrix here. I know he's basically recovered, but he did have pretty severe brain damage not so very long ago. This cant be good for his psyche.

Edited April 6, 2017 by tennisgurl

[Tiger]

This arc reminds of of this really cool story the X-Men comics did right before the first movie came out wherein the team thought they had defeated Apocalypse but instead were his prisoners and living in a false reality.  

I've always loved Marvel's 'What If' comics, so I am very excited about this arc.

55 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Interesting that in the Evil Universe, Fitz is some kind of medical doctor, instead of an engineer like in the Real Universe. Maybe he went to Evil Medical School with Dr. Evil?

I'm also a bit concerned about Fitz being hooked up to the Matrix here. I know he's basically recovered, but he did have pretty severe brain damage not so very long ago. This cant be good for his psyche.

I fully expect the cliffhanger to this arc/the season to be either Framework!Ward's "mind" being downloaded into an LMD, or real Fitz now having Framework!Fitz's personality, possibly even as a Jekyll/Hyde situation with real Fitz.

[rmontro]

17 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Evil Fitz as a Scottish Dr. Mengele, complete with Mirror Universe facial hair, is scary as hell!

Lol, I'm always a sucker for Mirror Universe evil facial hair.

[SnoGirl]

4 hours ago, Tiger said:

This arc reminds of of this really cool story the X-Men comics did right before the first movie came out wherein the team thought they had defeated Apocalypse but instead were his prisoners and living in a false reality.  

I've always loved Marvel's 'What If' comics, so I am very excited about this arc.

I fully expect the cliffhanger to this arc/the season to be either Framework!Ward's "mind" being downloaded into an LMD, or real Fitz now having Framework!Fitz's personality, possibly even as a Jekyll/Hyde situation with real Fitz.

I don't know, I've been going back and forth. There have been a couple of episodes where I have thought we would have seen the return of Fitz not being able to spit out his thoughts but it hasnt happened. There were so many first season shout-outs, it would be interesting and awful if Fitz had some fall-out from the Framework. I would absolutely HATE to have an evil Fitz to comeback. I would rather see him comeback with the return of his brain damage and have Simmons stick around this time.

I'm aso torn about Ward. I really like Brett Dalton and I think the rest of the actors do too. It would be interesting if they LMD-ed him, but maybe with some tweaks? After the disaster of Ada, I think they'll destroy all the LMDs. After everything Ward did, I dont know if they could bring him back.

Edited April 6, 2017 by SnoGirl
Because Ada and Ava are two different names.

[Lantern7]

I am a poor excuse for a fanboy. I did not know that ABC was running the rest of the episodes until Tuesday night, when I was on AVClub looking for the review for the Legends Of Tomorrow finale. And I couldn't catch up until today.

"IT'S 2017. DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR CHILDREN ARE?" Come on, I can't be the only one thinking that.

I would think that Simmons at least would be trope-savvy. Skyesy probably was too busy learning to hack to get that immersed into sci-fi. I didn't get tired of Skyesy freaking out every five seconds. "Oh, good. Fitz is fucking Dr. Mindbender. Sure. Why not? I'm an Hydra agent, Ward is alive (of course), Jemma is dead, and May's soul measures at zero degrees. Kelvin."

Nice that Coulson broke first among the long-term residents. Would've hated him talking about the benefits of Hydra. "No, Hydra didn't come from the Nazis. They helped the Nazis. Huge difference!"

[TVSpectator]

12 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

I am a poor excuse for a fanboy. I did not know that ABC was running the rest of the episodes until Tuesday night, when I was on AVClub looking for the review for the Legends Of Tomorrow finale. And I couldn't catch up until today.

"IT'S 2017. DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR CHILDREN ARE?" Come on, I can't be the only one thinking that.

I would think that Simmons at least would be trope-savvy. Skyesy probably was too busy learning to hack to get that immersed into sci-fi. I didn't get tired of Skyesy freaking out every five seconds. "Oh, good. Fitz is fucking Dr. Mindbender. Sure. Why not? I'm an Hydra agent, Ward is alive (of course), Jemma is dead, and May's soul measures at zero degrees. Kelvin."

Nice that Coulson broke first among the long-term residents. Would've hated him talking about the benefits of Hydra. "No, Hydra didn't come from the Nazis. They helped the Nazis. Huge difference!"

4

Isn't the character supposed to be a big Dr. Who fan or something?

[AKA...CJ86]

Glad to see Ward back, again, my favorite character.

Got to say, I think I like the Hydra-ized takes on May and Fitz more.

[Raja]

3 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

Isn't the character supposed to be a big Dr. Who fan or something?

When Agent Koenig was giving her a lie detector test when Hydra emerged and SHIELD dispersed and went into hiding her answer to the question "what is in the box?" was The Tardis

[Sandman]

20 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Interesting that in the Evil Universe, Fitz is some kind of medical doctor, instead of an engineer like in the Real Universe. Maybe he went to Evil Medical School with Dr. Evil?

I'm not sure we can call what that Doctor is doing to human beings medicine; I think he's probably still an engineer -- isn't Radcliffe an engineer, rather than a medical doctor?

[CaptainTightpants]

This type of episode is the reason why I desperately hope that the show get renewed! It was pretty much perfect, dialogue, acting and plotting. I am really enjoying goodWard. And Daisy and Simmons together has always been my favorite character combo. So they were really hitting it out of the park with this one. 

I did find it a shame that we have to wait till next episode for Mace, and it looks like he is going to be a badass! My only complaint about adding Jason O'Mara to the cast is that they don't seem to give him much to do. He is a fine actor, and has such a physical presence in other shows I've seen him in. It has been a bit of a letdown with him being the wishy-washy bureaucrat. It looks like he gets to be the insurgent/rebel leader in framework, which I am 100% looking forward to!

There isn't enough Clark Gregg in the world, so I'm happy to see him play any part. It was super creepy to see him as a passive collaborator to the evil regime though! I'm glad he snapped out of it at the end (we assume), I'm ready to see heroCoulson back in action. 

I'm tired of Aida, so I'm glad that she was only in one short scene. I'm hoping they focus more on the team dynamic and rescue mission and keep her appearances to a minimum. I do wonder what she is doing with the Superior, whether she is going to pop him into the framework like that clown from IT or if they are saving him for next season. 

Edited April 7, 2017 by CaptainTightpants
spelling

[CaptainTightpants]

Also, I meant to mention how beautiful the set design was for all the Hydra stuff! Even the badges were gorgeous, but that giant kracken sculpture that is in the lobby of evilTriskelion was stupendous! I desperately want it for my living room, but it looks bigger than my house. 

Shield definitely needs to up it's decor game if they want to be taken seriously as a world power!

[rmontro]

12 hours ago, CyberJawa1986 said:

Glad to see Ward back, again, my favorite character.

I'll admit it's nice to see Ward again.

[Sandman]

2 hours ago, CaptainTightpants said:

Shield definitely needs to up it's decor game if they want to be taken seriously as a world power!

Even in the regular continuity, Hydra seemed to be one up on S.H.I.E.L.D. in its marketing -- what with all the Hydra badges, mousepads, and other branded swag that Simmons saw littering Hydra Central. (The lower echelons are probably expected to purchase their mousepads, mugs, and lanyards instead of receiving free crap -- the only thing more evil than marketing is marketing on a cost-recovery basis!)

[Enigma X]

May will forever bug me. 

[rmontro]

On 4/6/2017 at 6:01 PM, SnoGirl said:

I'm aso torn about Ward. I really like Brett Dalton and I think the rest of the actors do too. It would be interesting if they LMD-ed him, but maybe with some tweaks? After the disaster of Ada, I think they'll destroy all the LMDs. After everything Ward did, I dont know if they could bring him back.

They can make him the new Hymie of the show.  It is about secret agents after all.  :)

[Sandman]

Have we known since the reveal about what really happened in Bahrain that the girl was an Inhuman? I mostly remember we learned the true meaning of "the Cavalry." I think the girl was referred to as an 084, or as enhanced, but was she explicitly referred to as an Inhuman before now? Something feels a little retcon-y about that to me. (But probably my memory is faulty ... or has it been altered? Haha. (... I think.))

On 2017-04-07 at 7:04 PM, rmontro said:

 It is about secret agents after all.  :)

And now I want the entrance to the Triskelion to be deep underground, accessible only through a phone booth (oops!) and layers and layers of steel doors and secret passageways...

Edited April 10, 2017 by Sandman

[Raja]

44 minutes ago, Sandman said:

Have we known since the reveal about what really happened in Bahrain that the girl was an Inhuman? I mostly remember we learned the true meaning of "the Cavalry." I think the girl was referred to as an 084, or as enhanced, but was she explicitly referred to as an Inhuman before now? Something feels a little retcon-y about that to me. (But probably my memory is fault ... or has it been altered? Haha. (... I think.))

And now I want the entrance to the Triskelion to be deep underground, accessible only through a phone booth (oops!) and layers and layers of steel doors and secret passageways...

I think the investigation of "The Incident" is what made the Inhumans public,  by way of a defector from Jaiying's group . And that made the emergence of Hydra possible in the framework 

[Maverick]

53 minutes ago, Sandman said:

Have we known since the reveal about what really happened in Bahrain that the girl was an Inhuman? I mostly remember we learned the true meaning of "the Cavalry." I think the girl was referred to as an 084, or as enhanced, but was she explicitly referred to as an Inhuman before now? Something feels a little retcon-y about that to me. (But probably my memory is fault ... or has it been altered? Haha. (... I think.))

And now I want the entrance to the Triskelion to be deep underground, accessible only through a phone booth (oops!) and layers and layers of steel doors and secret passageways...

Jiang was telling Skye and story about the dangers of unchecked Terragenesis and using the story of aa.com mother who stole crystals for her daughter as an example   the big reveal at the end of the episode was that it was the same girl May killed  

[Sandman]

That's the part I was forgetting! Thanks.

[jhlipton]

On 4/4/2017 at 11:11 PM, thuganomics85 said:

Fitz as The Doctor was scary as hell.  When they first mentioned him, I thought it was going to be Radcliffe, but this was a much better direction. 

I was thinking (and hoping) it would be Calvin Zaboi, but he's not really part of the Framework.

On 4/7/2017 at 10:29 AM, CaptainTightpants said:

Also, I meant to mention how beautiful the set design was for all the Hydra stuff! Even the badges were gorgeous

And the 1984-ish posters everywhere.

[rmontro]

18 hours ago, Sandman said:

And now I want the entrance to the Triskelion to be deep underground, accessible only through a phone booth (oops!) and layers and layers of steel doors and secret passageways...

Plus they need to change the opening to Clark Gregg walking through those secret doors and getting into the phone booth.

[Hanahope]

I loved the re-imagining of how things would be different if May saved the girl in Bahrain.  Lol at Ward being a double agent, no matter what.  Skye/Daisey should have known, and realize that in this 'reality' she probably never knew her real parents.  Wasn't Colson a Shield agent when May was in Bahrain.  It doesn't quite make sense that Colson was always a teacher and not a Shield agent.

I had presumed that Simmon's 'whisper' was because in "being brought back to life", the body was probably pretty dehydrated and so she couldn't talk well with a dry throat (I recently saw Dean brought back to life from hell in S4 of Supernatural, where he had the same problem).  

It appears that Aida in the matrix is "aware" enough to know who Simmons is, that she's supposed to be dead, and thus the "Simmons" running around must be hacked in from the outside, so she worked to eliminate her way out of the matrix.  it appears she doesn't yet know about hacked Daisy.  And hopefully now that Colson is remembering, they'll start getting things to work in their favor.

[Sandman]

3 hours ago, rmontro said:

Plus they need to change the opening to Clark Gregg walking through those secret doors and getting into the phone booth.

Right?! Oh, man, forget Agents of Hydra! Now I want a Get Coulson! episode...

[paigow]

Loki as head of K.A.O.S ???

42 minutes ago, Sandman said:

Now I want a Get Coulson! episode...

[Sandman]

11 hours ago, paigow said:

Loki as head of K.A.O.S ???

"Stark, this is Jotunheim! We do not quip here!"

[jhlipton]

23 hours ago, Sandman said:

Right?! Oh, man, forget Agents of Hydra! Now I want a Get Coulson! episode...

All the Koenigs as The Chief and Deathlok as Hymie?

[ahisma]

I loved seeing Vijay again! I hope he resurrects in the real world sometime down the line.

[wmdekooning]

On 4/7/2017 at 11:19 AM, rmontro said:

I'll admit it's nice to see Ward again.

I think someone at Marvel Studios must have a grudge against some dude named "Ward".

Why else would the douchey bad guy in AOS and "Iron Fist" be named so?

[TVSpectator]

47 minutes ago, wmdekooning said:

I think someone at Marvel Studios must have a grudge against some dude named "Ward".

Why else would the douchey bad guy in AOS and "Iron Fist" be named so?

 

 

Well, the Iron Fist Ward was already named Ward Meachum from when the comics were first released like back in the 1960s or 1970s.

 

Grant Ward is still a mystery. Maybe the writers actually wanted a homage to that other Ward character or they didn't know and just went ahead with given a guy two last names?

Edited April 20, 2017 by TVSpectator

[Kel Varnsen]

Finally catching uo on this season and i was impressed, actually surprised how well this episode worked. For most of the LMD arc it has been bugging the shit out of me how good the technology had gotten. Too good for even the MCU. But here i didn't mind. And i loved all the little background stuff like Alexander Pierce high school. At first the only thing that bugged was how the framework didn't notice that 2 AI characters had become real, but they even explained that.

The only thing im really wondering is if no Agent Coulson means no Avengers, then who stopped the Chautari? Although i guess Aida has no idea who Thanos is and can just delete Loki all together if she wants to.

[ProudMary]

15 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Finally catching uo on this season and i was impressed, actually surprised how well this episode worked. For most of the LMD arc it has been bugging the shit out of me how good the technology had gotten. Too good for even the MCU. But here i didn't mind. And i loved all the little background stuff like Alexander Pierce high school. At first the only thing that bugged was how the framework didn't notice that 2 AI characters had become real, but they even explained that.

The only thing im really wondering is if no Agent Coulson means no Avengers, then who stopped the Chautari? Although i guess Aida has no idea who Thanos is and can just delete Loki all together if she wants to.

Oh wow, I missed that.  Definitely cool.

[Kel Varnsen]

The whole what if thing got me wondering; if Coulson doesn't join SHIELD, did the Iron Monger kill Tony and Pepper? Because in Iron Man he helps Pepper escape the Iron Monger, then she turns on the reactor which kills him and saves Tony.