S05.E13: Steven and Justin's Story, Part 1

[satrunrose]

Does anyone have any insight about what was up with Steven's handshake obsession? Clearly it has something to do with control and manipulation (like the crocodile tears) but I can't say I've ever seen manipulating via handshake before. We saw him asking Dr Now at least twice after he had been read the riot act, so it seems to be a tool reserved for authority figures who see through his b.s.

[chopperchopperbell]

I can see now why he was given so many drugs in the hospital....to shut him up and keep him more passive.  Steven I think is too far gone :-/  He needs serious mental help and he'll never be willing to admit to himself that he has a problem.  A lot of these fat bed bound people are highly manipulative, getting the world to do their bidding while they never have to life a finger (literally).  To me it's sad because they are literally the makers of their own hell. 

[KateHearts]

12 hours ago, HahYallDoin said:

Actually, you can call the hospital and ask if there is someone by the name XYZ and they will tell you and even give you the room number. You can also do this in person.

I've worked in hospitals all my adult life and this has never been allowed.

[Thriftykins]

21 minutes ago, KateHearts said:

I've worked in hospitals all my adult life and this has never been allowed.

This could be one of those things that isn't universal.  If it isn't part of HIPAA related laws, different hospitals (under different networks) could have different rules.

 

Let's not forget that Princess wasn't just any old average Jane off the street.  She was medically involved with Steven.

[HahYallDoin]

13 minutes ago, KateHearts said:

I've worked in hospitals all my adult life and this has never been allowed.

I've been employed in mid-level management in hospital administration for 21 years and this has always been allowed at our facility, as well as the four additional facilities owned by our healthcare system. I also know it to be true at two additional hospitals in our city. 

Perhaps it varies by region, which I had never considered before, since I have never run into a situation where the info wasn't shared. I'm from Alabama and my aunt was in a hospital in Pittsburg a few months ago. I called the hospital and asked for her room number so I could provide it to the florist. The switchboard operator gave it to me without hesitation and I didn't even explain what I wanted it for...just asked for XYZ's room number. It seems as though the hospital in Houston has the same policy. 

Just one more thing that varies from one facility to another, I suppose. 

3 minutes ago, Michael Stabosz said:

This could be one of those things that isn't universal.  If it isn't part of HIPAA related laws, different hospitals (under different networks) could have different rules.

Exactly. What Michael said :)

[TurtlePower]

2 hours ago, Michael Stabosz said:

I'm fully aware of the time lag between production and airing.  But all we viewers have to judge by is what airs, and the episodes that aired didn't start getting trashy and stupid until THIS year.

Trashy is a good way to describe it and this Dr Phil-like crazy trend is disheartening. Patients having struggles and setbacks is one thing but they've gone all out trashy. 

Is this what TLC thinks we want to see? I don't want to see this kind of manipulative POS being gifted resources and then paraded on national television and given undeserved attention. The best treatment for Steven is anonymity. 

[Thriftykins]

14 minutes ago, TurtlePower said:

Is this what TLC thinks we want to see? I don't want to see this kind of manipulative POS being gifted resources and then paraded on national television and given undeserved attention. The best treatment for Steven is anonymity. 

Probably.  This describes pretty much all of their programming.  My 600 Pound Life just became what it inevitably would become.  It's as the saying goes "if you lie down with dogs, you wake up with fleas".

10 hours ago, auntjess said:

I wonder if 1/ the both suffered from fetal alcohol syndrome, or whatever the term is, and 2/ Dad is acting from guilt, because he left them with mom way too long.
And before Justin gets a "career," how about a job?  Unless he plans to be a professional video game tester, I can't think of what he'd be qualified for.

I think the people who wrote the description are just taking linguistic liberties.  By career they probably do mean just an ordinary job.  People have speculated on footage of a man falling off a golf cart.  I would venture to guess that Justin is going to get a job at a golf course.  It's not much but it's a start.  The world is full of those kinds of jobs that don't have particularly stiff qualifications.

 

Sometimes I get the sense that Justin's hatred of Steven is driving him to do better. 

[Granny58]

9 hours ago, Dru Blood said:

More then likely he has some elements of dissociation.  This man is horrible, but I do feel he was made this way by the treatment he received from his parents as a small child.  He then turned around and started abusing Justin.  Justin himself exhibits some form of dissociation also.

I also think there's self abuse involved....from self loathing.  He needs a stay in a psych ward more than he needs weight loss surgery.  

[Granny58]

7 hours ago, bethster2000 said:

There is no excuse for this behavior.  I don't care *what* his upbringing was like.  A warning: very foul language.  VERY foul language.

WOW.  This is simply surreal.  What a horrible "person."  I can't even express my horror.  However, at the end when he complains that "if this was your son you wouldn't tolerate it," he's right.  I would NOT tolerate my son eating himself to sci fi proportions, refusing to walk (to the bathroom!) when we've seen him mobile, abusing others that way, sponging off of the taxpayers and me when it is his own doing.  I would NOT have pizzas delivered to him, especially if I was far enough away that I couldn't hear him threatening and complaining.  There's plenty that I would not tolerate in my son.  But if he chose to sit in his own shit when he is perfectly capable of moving, yeah - I would tolerate that.  

[Cherrio]

Interesting.......Dr. Phil reruns on Own are showing the 2 part episode with Steven right now.

He is acting much the same as he does now.  They are all telling him he smells too.

[KateHearts]

11 hours ago, auntjess said:

And before Justin gets a "career," how about a job?  Unless he plans to be a professional video game tester, I can't think of what he'd be qualified for.

According to the pop-ups, Justin aspires to having a career "painting model cars." Reminds me of "Being John Malkovich," where the lead character is searching in the want ads for jobs for puppeteers.  

So much to say about this episode. For those expressing that empathy is required for Steven- I'm inclined to think that his behavior is much more calculated than it is a result of psychosis/inability to understand normal behavior. He's all about the attention- right down to the hair pulling ("see? I'm mentally disturbed and need lots of coddling!") to the pulling-out-all-the-stops YouTube videos. Watching him able to cry REAL TEARS because (sob) he "messed up- but I'll do anything and I WILL lose the weight this time, doctor!!!" to smiling with a totally dry face ten seconds later was a good indication of how much he sees life as nothing but play-acting to get the next pizza/bed bath/hit on his video.  

Princess must have been making some good coin to put up with that- she was on to him from the beginning and I can't see that there would be one enjoyable aspect to spending time as his "caregiver," or rather his punching bag.  He seemed to think she was his partner  in crime- giving her his smarmy looks when he felt he'd pulled one over on the ER nurses and even on Dr. Nowzaradan.  She did her fair share of eyerolling- but I'd have loved to listen to her interview about what life with Queen Steven was like all those long days.

I can't really figure out Dad's issues here, except that, as others have said, maybe there is more Steven is hanging over his head.  Drug dealer? Who knows, but to be able to blackmail him from 1800 miles away to order takeout pizza is a jaw-dropper to me. Justin did have the sense to tell Dad "cancel the order! You're doing the wrong thing!" and of course, Dad did not. The overly exaggerated emoting and ridiculous actions by Steven Sr (like handing Jr a pizza box without taking some first and then going hungry) make me think he is either really mentally deficient himself or just loving acting out in this "play" that they are all trying to cash in on.

[ZombieLisa]

He must be deleting all the negative comments, because there's no way he's only getting love after his episode aired.

[EastCoast4Life]

I'm from Rhode Island and clearly remember Steven Sr. getting on local radio, begging for help for Steven Jr. after he was booted out of RI Hospital for ordering pizza. (He had ordered pizza multiple times, and the hospital finally had enough, it wasn't just one pizza). Allegedly, after getting kicked out, Steven had to stay in his dad's van outside of the house, because they couldn't get him back into the house. Shortly after, he was admitted to nearby Kent Hospital, and then apparently taken to Houston. On the radio, the dad went on and on about how he couldn't care for Steven, and how he needed the help of a hospital or facility. I also have some nurse friends who actually interacted with this nut job in our hospitals here, and they said he was always talking about "becoming famous". So he is thrilled that all this attention is coming his way, thrilled. They also said he is an absolute monster to care for, and comes off worse in person than he does on camera (if that's possible). 

[todd]

2 minutes ago, EastCoast4Life said:

I'm from Rhode Island and clearly remember Steven Sr. getting on local radio, begging for help for Steven Jr. after he was booted out of RI Hospital for ordering pizza. (He had ordered pizza multiple times, and the hospital finally had enough, it wasn't just one pizza). Allegedly, after getting kicked out, Steven had to stay in his dad's van outside of the house, because they couldn't get him back into the house. Shortly after, he was admitted to nearby Kent Hospital, and then apparently taken to Houston. On the radio, the dad went on and on about how he couldn't care for Steven, and how he needed the help of a hospital or facility. I also have some nurse friends who actually interacted with this nut job in our hospitals here, and they said he was always talking about "becoming famous". So he is thrilled that all this attention is coming his way, thrilled. They also said he is an absolute monster to care for, and comes off worse in person than he does on camera (if that's possible). 

Livin' in a van down by the RIVER hahhahhahahahah.

[Angie7823]

Does anyone else think the dad looked like Captain Spaulding??? The way he raised his kids they very well could be the next devils rejects.

[Tabbygirl521]

OK, so i am finally watching this. Just made it through the pie scene. I am speechless. I have a hunch I may have to bail on this one. Damn. 

Am laughing at his having the police on speed-dial. Saves two keystrokes!

he just said he was "mobile-y" obese. 

I admire the medical staff for not accidentally overmedicaring him with Dilaudid. Oops! We must have miscalculated his dosage since we had to guess his weight!

my family is currently dealing with a person who rages and threatens everyone. I am so sick of this type of crap. 

Edited March 31, 2017 by Tabbygirl521

[Angie7823]

In all reality this episode really pissed me off. I've been over weight my whole life and I seriously try. I only drink water (with flavor packets) and I goto the gym 4 times a week Monday and wednesdays water aerobics and Tuesday I see a trainer and Thursday I repeat what I did with the trainer. I've lost some weight don't get me wrong but I would kill for an opportunity to get free surgery to change my life. I would follow the diet  I would work out I would kiss everybody's ass that was helping me. He is a sorry piece of shit who deserves no ones help. 

And why was he not charged with deception to obtain narcotics?!?!?!? Hospital hopping and pharmacy fraud is most definitely a crime and he admitted to the doctor he was lying to abuse drugs.

[Brooklynista]

3 hours ago, satrunrose said:

Does anyone have any insight about what was up with Steven's handshake obsession? Clearly it has something to do with control and manipulation (like the crocodile tears) but I can't say I've ever seen manipulating via handshake before. We saw him asking Dr Now at least twice after he had been read the riot act, so it seems to be a tool reserved for authority figures who see through his b.s.

Can you imagine the transfer of germs shaking that nasty bastards hands?? When's the last time he washed them??

I would have to nope out of touching any part of him without gloves. 

[Thriftykins]

29 minutes ago, ZombieLisa said:

He must be deleting all the negative comments, because there's no way he's only getting love after his episode aired.

I don't understand how he's getting any positive comments AT ALL.

[Thriftykins]

48 minutes ago, KateHearts said:

According to the pop-ups, Justin aspires to having a career "painting model cars." Reminds me of "Being John Malkovich," where the lead character is searching in the want ads for jobs for puppeteers. 

Lots of people have their dream careers, but most of us settle for something more realistic and mundane.

[Nancypants]

Lets put James K. And Mossy Steven in the same room together for a month and make bets on who make who cry first!

[Tabbygirl521]

So Big Steve has elephantiasis, too? Yow. 

I am surprised the medical RV crew didn't have some say over the food Steven could have. When my husband (normal weight!) was in the hospital for cardiac issues, he was handed the cardiac-patient menu. Period. He didn't have a problem with it but it was all they would allow. Granted, he could have ordered mass quantities. But no burgers and fries! No pizza. 

This family is like the low-rent male version of "Grey Gardens."

[gonecrackers]

1 hour ago, Brooklynista said:

Can you imagine the transfer of germs shaking that nasty bastards hands?? When's the last time he washed them??

I would have to nope out of touching any part of him without gloves. 

I haven't had the horror of watching this yet but from folks here describing the hand shake requests & his reactions I wonder if he had his hand, um, somewhere, shortly before, & if the other person knew they'd be horrified. It seems like him to do something like that from the descriptions of his behavior. If I were Dr. Now I would've said 'sure' to the hand shake, but wait, 'just need to put my glove on first' (or like 20 gloves). That might've taken the thrill out of it for Steven.

I'd feel like I'd need a skin graft if I touched his hand without full coverage.

Edited March 31, 2017 by gonecrackers

[operalover]

18 hours ago, ClareWalks said:

The amazing thing is how Steven's dad, who I didn't take for much of a shy wallflower, was practically begging his son and pleading for a piece of pizza that HE BOUGHT AND PAID FOR, and that HE ORDERED. Dude, take the slice of pizza. Don't ask. Take it. If he protests, just step slightly out of reach, what the fuck is he gonna do? There is no way I'm tolerating being flipped off by anyone because I politely asked for a piece of pizza that I BOUGHT.

Not only that, he just drove half way across the country to find him an apartment and save him from homelessness. Some very odd situation there- I guess a father's guilt- you don't like to see your child suffer. I give in to my youngest son too all the time. I hate to see him cry. He is now 23 years old but he graduated Georgia Tech in engineering so he is able to make his own money now. But whenever he wanted something, I gave it to him.  I have 3 kids too but something about my youngest-  I guess I could feel his feelings more. It's so weird the parent-child relationship, that is For Sure!

[KateHearts]

16 minutes ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

 

So Big Steve has elephantiasis, too? Yow. 

I am surprised the medical RV crew didn't have some say over the food Steven could have. When my husband (normal weight!) was in the hospital for cardiac issues, he was handed the cardiac-patient menu.

 

The transport guys do just that, transport. He wasn't technically under anyone's care at that point. In the hospital the physician orders the diet and those who provide it are required to provide what's allowed according to the order. 

[Tabbygirl521]

Steven has been "aggressively photographing the nurses with his tablet"??? Creep!!

[Miss Ruth]

2 hours ago, TurtlePower said:

Is this what TLC thinks we want to see?

Obviously, it is what we want to watch since, as evidenced by this forum alone, it is a popular show.  No offense, but the power button on the remote does give us choices.

[todd]

2 minutes ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

Steven has been "aggressively photographing the nurses with his tablet"??? Creep!!

Yeah, hes creepy. wonder how he reaches his ding dong though? Its gotta be trapped under a hundred pound fold of fat? 

[Miss Ruth]

1 hour ago, KateHearts said:

.....without taking some first and then going hungry...

That old man didn't go hungry; he was merely following his script.

[mamadrama]

4 hours ago, satrunrose said:

Does anyone have any insight about what was up with Steven's handshake obsession? Clearly it has something to do with control and manipulation (like the crocodile tears) but I can't say I've ever seen manipulating via handshake before. We saw him asking Dr Now at least twice after he had been read the riot act, so it seems to be a tool reserved for authority figures who see through his b.s.

It's a control issue, like you said, and I think he gets off on making people DO things. He makes his father (an authority figure) bring him food. He makes the nurses (authority figures) jump and run to him every time he rings his bell. He makes doctors (authority figures) touch him. 

[mamadrama]

2 hours ago, HahYallDoin said:

I've been employed in mid-level management in hospital administration for 21 years and this has always been allowed at our facility, as well as the four additional facilities owned by our healthcare system. I also know it to be true at two additional hospitals in our city. 

Perhaps it varies by region, which I had never considered before, since I have never run into a situation where the info wasn't shared. I'm from Alabama and my aunt was in a hospital in Pittsburg a few months ago. I called the hospital and asked for her room number so I could provide it to the florist. The switchboard operator gave it to me without hesitation and I didn't even explain what I wanted it for...just asked for XYZ's room number. It seems as though the hospital in Houston has the same policy. 

 

Maybe it's a state thing, too. Between my hospitalizations, my mother's, and my grandmother's, I am familiar with most all of the hospitals in my area-around a dozen or more of them. It has always been allowed at them, too. 

[TurtlePower]

14 minutes ago, Miss Ruth said:

Obviously, it is what we want to watch since, as evidenced by this forum alone, it is a popular show.  No offense, but the power button on the remote does give us choices.

Yeah, I know. I have abandoned programming before and might remove this show from the "record" list if it continues this trend. 

 

1 hour ago, Cherrio said:

Interesting.......Dr. Phil reruns on Own are showing the 2 part episode with Steven right now.

He is acting much the same as he does now.  They are all telling him he smells too.

This was back in 2007. Sorry, but screw this guy. He's had too much attention and too many chances. 

[Thriftykins]

I don't really want to watch part 2, but I kind of have to see how this plays out.  I feel like I made a commitment and don't want to back out on that.

 

The episode after that looks like a followup which should be innocuous.  I'm willing to give the show another chance but if they do more of these types of episodes, I'm done.

[Dru Blood]

5 hours ago, Michael Stabosz said:

17 hours ago, Dru Blood said:

I have been meaning to point out that this show had to be filmed a couple of years ago.  The next episode is the next year in these two dysfunctional idiots lives.  The show had to have started filming in 2015 possibly.

Reasons I feel this way?  Dr. Now was treating Steven in that glass high rise hospital from past seasons.  I think it's called Foundation Surgical Hospital?  He was treating Nicole and James K. at St. Luke's.  If you want to say this show has gone to hell in a hand basket this year, you would be inaccurate.  It went to HIaH 2 years ago.  Earlier this season when I noticed the different hospital, I figured he had lost practice privileges either due to the high cost of treating these individuals (heck, maybe it was Steven who lost him the privileges) OR the hospital didn't want to take on the high risk of the the patient's dying any longer.

I'm fully aware of the time lag between production and airing.  But all we viewers have to judge by is what airs, and the episodes that aired didn't start getting trashy and stupid until THIS year.

I'm so not attacking anyone here.  Quite honestly, this show has, in my opinion, always had faint elements of "idiots on parade" going on.  Sadly, eventually they were bound to get down to the bottom of the barrel.

I also might point out that as humans have always done, we sometimes watch or become fascinated by things we really shouldn't.

[Thriftykins]

6 minutes ago, Dru Blood said:

I'm so not attacking anyone here.  Quite honestly, this show has, in my opinion, always had faint elements of "idiots on parade" going on.  Sadly, eventually they were bound to get down to the bottom of the barrel.

I don't agree.  Previous patients succumbed to rather severe food addictions and it had done a lot of damage to their lives, but they tried and they were still good people.  Except for Pauline, Penny, and Marla, every patient before this season was a person I rooted for.  Chuck was kind of immature but he still pulled it together enough to get with the program.

[Dru Blood]

Just now, Michael Stabosz said:

don't agree.  Previous patients succumbed to rather severe food addictions and it had done a lot of damage to their lives, but they tried and they were still good people.

I never said anyone wasn't a good person.  I even saw elements of good in the people most disparaged, such as Penny, Pauline, Marla & Chuck.  These are people, multifaceted people.  They were and in some cases are in very bad situations in their lives...this even includes Steven.  He is very distasteful in the way he chooses to live his life, but he is also very unwell.  Heck, I rooted for all of them.  I am even rooting for Steven still.  But truthfully, I also believe that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

[mamadrama]

16 minutes ago, Michael Stabosz said:

I don't really want to watch part 2, but I kind of have to see how this plays out. 

I am tickled to death to watch part 2. The golf cart scene alone has me giddy in anticipation. 

Re: the supersized episode last night...

"Steven does not want to go to a drug rehab because he doesn't want to abandon his cat."

ME: I don't remember him having a cat...

MY SON: Maybe it got lost in one of his folds...

[Cherrio]

25 minutes ago, TurtlePower said:

Yeah, I know. I have abandoned programming before and might remove this show from the "record" list if it continues this trend. 

 

This was back in 2007. Sorry, but screw this guy. He's had too much attention and too many chances. 

I agree.   Nothing has changed and its clear to me that his father is just as much a famewhore as his son.

Taxpayers should not have to support him.

[Dru Blood]

5 minutes ago, Cherrio said:

I agree.   Nothing has changed and its clear to me that his father is just as much a famewhore as his son.

In some ways, especially for Steven, you have hit the nail on the head.  This behavior has always gotten him what he wants or needs at that moment, why would he abandon it now.  It's a winning combination.  Mr. Orangeface has proven it.  Even Dr. Shill gets or draws people in by putting on or showcasing the extreme.

[Toaster Strudel]

2 hours ago, Granny58 said:

WOW.  This is simply surreal.  What a horrible "person."  I can't even express my horror.  However, at the end when he complains that "if this was your son you wouldn't tolerate it," he's right.  I would NOT tolerate my son eating himself to sci fi proportions, refusing to walk (to the bathroom!) when we've seen him mobile, abusing others that way, sponging off of the taxpayers and me when it is his own doing.  I would NOT have pizzas delivered to him, especially if I was far enough away that I couldn't hear him threatening and complaining.  There's plenty that I would not tolerate in my son.  But if he chose to sit in his own shit when he is perfectly capable of moving, yeah - I would tolerate that.  

I don't know why the hospital isn't calling the cops on HIM!!!

[Hockeymom]

On 3/29/2017 at 11:37 PM, OSM Mom said:

This is from his Facebook page. *sigh*

Aww, his house is dirty, his clothes are filthy, and he's low on food. Hey asshole, no one cares.

As someone who works to pay for your lifestyle, I say Hallelujah!  House dirty? Grab a broom and get busy. Clothes filthy? Waddle to the laundry room. Low on food? Brilliant!

Maybe "they" only paid for the bed for a month, because you were expected to be out of it. Wanna gorge on pizza and lie your own stink? You can pay for it.

Finally, Steven is stuck with a bill! He should be back charged for all the specialized services he's received. Steven can walk, scam, and lie. Now he can pay his bills, just like everyone else.

[MichelleTX]

I so miss the older uplifting and motivational episodes. I used to look forward to each new episode but not so much lately. Please let this be the last train wreck (well I don't mind one here and there to snark on but I'd rather cheer on someone who really wants it)!

[todd]

5 hours ago, satrunrose said:

Does anyone have any insight about what was up with Steven's handshake obsession? Clearly it has something to do with control and manipulation (like the crocodile tears) but I can't say I've ever seen manipulating via handshake before. We saw him asking Dr Now at least twice after he had been read the riot act, so it seems to be a tool reserved for authority figures who see through his b.s.

This reminds me of Django Unchained when Calvin Candie insisted that King Schultz shake his hand over Broomhilda's bill of sale......King pulled out his derringer and shot Calvin. 

Edited March 31, 2017 by todd
grammar error again

[Thriftykins]

3 minutes ago, Hockeymom said:

*PICTURE SNIPPED*

 

Aww, his house is dirty, his clothes are filthy, and he's low on food. Hey asshole, no one cares.

As someone who works to pay for your lifestyle, I say Hallelujah!  House dirty? Grab a broom and get busy. Clothes filthy? Waddle to the laundry room. Low on food? Brilliant!

Maybe "they" only paid for the bed for a month, because you were expected to be out of it. Wanna gorge on pizza and lie your own stink? You can pay for it.

Finally, Steven is stuck with a bill! He should be back charged for all the specialized services he's received. Steven can walk, scam, and lie. Now he can pay his bills, just like everyone else.

I am getting an almost orgasmic level of schadenfreude from that post.

But I have to admit I hate to think of what happens to Justin and Steven Senior next.  Because this is their problem too.  Justin I feel sorry for, but maybe Steven Sr. should have been thinking about this when he was ordering all those damn pizzas from 1800 miles away.

[Lizzie Jones]

I just started watching the first minute of this episode and need to ask ..... Why is it starting off like a Stephen King novel made into a movie?

[todd]

2 minutes ago, Michael Stabosz said:

I am getting an almost orgasmic level of schadenfreude from that post.

They should rename the show..."My 600 pound Schadenfreude"

[KateHearts]

"by the way I was forced to keep the bed and put center blocks under it and live with it"

...I guess someone should take the bed away, so that he isn't "forced" into anything.

(center blocks?)

[auntjess]

I can't believe that Steven wasn't aware of the state and duration of the arrangements.
On the other hand, I bet there's some head-scratching at the sheriff's department, and they try and figure what to do with him if they evict him.
I'd guess he becomes a charge upon Houston or their county.

[Dru Blood]

8 minutes ago, KateHearts said:

(center blocks?)

Someone up thread has stated that Steven never finished high school, he possible thinks cinder blocks is actually spelled center blocks.  It could also be a typo.  In the trip to Texas his bed broke and had to be repaired with cinder blocks.  He is probably referring to that.

[gardendiva]

19 minutes ago, Lizzie Jones said:

I just started watching the first minute of this episode and need to ask ..... Why is it starting off like a Stephen King novel made into a movie?

It is so strange that you should say this, because I was thinking the exact same thing. Steven is exactly like one of Stephen King's hateful, extreme characters that make you hate and fear him with equal measure. I thought it was too random of a thought and didn't say anything, but to see you make the same observation gave me shivers.