S05.E06: Marion

[Kid]

I just watched this episode. Well, that was certainly interesting!

Edited March 28, 2017 by Kid

[Kid]

11 hours ago, giovannif7 said:

That twist was the first big misstep in the series, IMHO. I'm having trouble articulating why the switch in shower victims didn't work for me. The closest I can get is that I've always thought that Norman's killings (in the original film) were reactive, based on either inner turmoil between the Mother personality and the Norman personality, or straight up fear. This episode's murder of Sam Loomis was an act of anger and retribution, and appeared to be a result of Norman agreeing with Mother that Loomis deserved to die. Loomis was no threat to Norman, and lust was not an issue. Add in the lack of a wig and dress during the murder, and Norman's altered line "Oh Mother, what have I done..." - and it's clear that Series Norman's version of mental illness makes him far more proactively aggressive than Film Norman was.

I was also disappointed at the lack of shrieking violins during the murder, as well as the missing crossfade from the shot of water circling the shower drain to the closeup of the victim's eye. Such classic sound and imagery!

Right out of my psychology textbook. He was doing what he was powerless to do as a child. Kill his father for abusing his mother. It's transference. Sam is a surrogate for his father.

[tennisgurl]

Wow! Its taken me some time to figure out how I feel about that twist and how they did Psycho, but, thinking it over, I think I liked it, and I think Hitchcock would have approved. Granted, he would have approved more if it was a hot blond getting knifed, but they already killed Norma off, so I guess that would fix that quota. When Psycho premiered, Marians death was THE plot twist that shocked the shit out of everyone, but, now, decades later, its what people have expected since the first episode. And even I have long wanted this show to end with Marian walking into the Bates Motel, seeing Norman at the front desk.

However, I think this actually worked out pretty well. This show has gone pretty far away from original Psycho, and this Norman is a different person than the movie Norman. He has more awareness of his illness, and he tries to fight it, but its comes anyway, just in a different way. He has killed women, but now that Mother and Norman are more on the same page, he can target assholes instead, which also fits this version of Norman. Maybe you could they're trying to keep Norman more sympathetic by him stabbing an asshole man to death, instead of a (more or less) innocent woman in a shower, and that makes the show less compelling, but that's the worst thing I could think. Normans madness here is a different kind of madness then in the movie.

All of the awards to Freddie and Vera. They just rock on every possible level imaginable. Also, Madelyn's actress was really good in the fight with Sam. She was totally channeling a young, slightly less unstable Norma.

[skotnikov]

46 minutes ago, Kid said:

Right out of my psychology textbook. He was doing what he was powerless to do as a child. Kill his father for abusing his mother. It's transference. Sam is a surrogate for his father.

But in so doing they basically  ruined the character. The whole thing in the original Psycho was that the human nature is unpredictable and violence is unmotivated, but the explanations and this "textbook psychology" just destroy the character of Norman, unfortunately. 

[peacheslatour]

1 minute ago, skotnikov said:

But in so doing they basically  ruined the character. The whole thing in the original Psycho was that the human nature is unpredictable and violence is unmotivated, but the explanations and this "textbook psychology" just destroy the character of Norman, unfortunately. 

Then why did Hitchcock use the psychiatrist character at the end of the movie to explain Norman's motivations to the audience?

[skotnikov]

13 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

Then why did Hitchcock use the psychiatrist character at the end of the movie to explain Norman's motivations to the audience?

Well, there is a lot of literature on that, but as far as I remember  ( I might be wrong) Hitch didn't want to have this explanation, but studio felt like they must include it. Another thing is that it is an ironic reference to the idea that people must pin down and put everything they don't understand in a box, give it an explanation (there are many visual references to boxes and picture frames in the scene at the police dept.) and this is –  alas – exactly that  series gave us now. 

[Fable]

I loved every minute of this episode.  It was definitely my favorite this season, if not the series.  I notice that Mother kept comparing Sam Loomis to Norman’s father, also named Sam, and don’t think that was a coincidence.  I was fully expecting Sam to die at some point, but that is not what I was expecting. What an interesting twist. 

However, my favorite scenes were the ones with Norman trying to convince Mother that she didn’t exist, and their last scene where Norman finally accepted that Mother did exist as part of him in order to protect him. Freddy is amazing. 

Edited March 28, 2017 by Fable

[Kid]

2 hours ago, skotnikov said:

But in so doing they basically  ruined the character. The whole thing in the original Psycho was that the human nature is unpredictable and violence is unmotivated, but the explanations and this "textbook psychology" just destroy the character of Norman, unfortunately. 

I hear what you're saying. However, in the original, you do not think there was a psychological component in that film? He had his mother's dead body up in the back bedroom.  He was holding two-sided conversations - being his mother and himself. He dressed like her when he committed the murders.

The difference in the original was he kept killing his mother wheb he killed the women not his father. He killed men but that's when they were on the path of discovering what he did.  And, the prequel's that were done shows that there was an incestuous relationship between the two. So it would make sense that the pathology being played out is to kill his mother over and over again. 

In my opinion, Bates Motel explains the Norman of the original.   Especially, in this episode.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Kid

[Dobian]

Well that was a twist.

[skotnikov]

43 minutes ago, Kid said:

I hear what you're saying. However, in the original, you do not think there was a psychological component in that film? He had his mother's dead body up in the back bedroom.  I was holding two-sided conversations - being his mother and himself. He dressed like her when he committed the murders.

The difference in the original was he kept killing his mother  not his father. And, the prequel's that were done shows that there was an incestuous relationship between the two. So it would make sense that the pathology being played out is to kill his mother over and over again. 

In my opinion, Bates Motel explains the Norman of the original.   Especially, in this episode.

Sure there is a lot of psychology in the original (and not for nothing it's called "Psycho"), but although we have a lot of glimpses into Norman's motivations, nothing is definite, there are more questions in the end than answers. Here we got all the answers, and what's worse by letting Marion go and killing Sam he also kinda redeems himself, and Hitch's Norman was pure evil.

Edited March 28, 2017 by skotnikov

[smorbie]

6 hours ago, Ohwell said:

I'm jumping right behind you.

I'm next.  You guys are really going to want to roll out of my way if you're still alive when you hit bottom.

[Bec]

I wonder if they already knew they were going to kill Sam Loomis when they named Norman's father in this series Sam Bates.

skotnikov pinpointed the part that's giving me a slight "something's missing" feeling, despite finding it satisfying to see asshole Sam get his bloody end. It's just not very terrifying when only the "bad" characters get killed. It's scarier when relatively innocent characters could get killed. The unknown is scary. When the reason something is happening is known, it ceases to be scary.

It was a horrifying idea that you can have this "dark half" that takes over your body and do things you wouldn't do, like murder people and leave you to clean up the bodies. This "dark half" you can't get away from, because it's part of you. We've sort of lost that element now with Norman realizing what "Mother" is and now being okay with getting in on the murder action himself.

[riverheightsnancy]

I thought it was really good. Let us not forget, just because Sam died now, doesn't mean that Marion still can't (not spolied!). Maybe she comes back? 

[Peanut6711]

9 minutes ago, skotnikov said:

Sure there is a lot of psychology in the original (and not for nothing it's called "Psycho"), but although we have a lot of glimpses into Norman's motivations, nothing is definite, there are more questions in the end than answers. Here we got all the answers, and what's worse by letting Marion go and killing Sam he also kinda redeems himself, and Hitch's Norman was pure evil.

I can't help but feel that some of the differences between the film and the show comes from simply the difference of a roughly 2 hour movie and the limitations with character development/background in that time frame vs. a five season (roughly 50 hours counting commercials) series.  There's definitely going to be more ambiguity in the movie than the show.  But I don't think Hitch's Norman is pure evil though as evident by the sequel where Normal has a chance at starting over but is perhaps driven back to insanity by Lila's agenda.

[Dobian]

I liked the twist.  For one, they didn't just copy Psycho.  If they did that, the comparisons between the Bates Motel shower scene and the classic original would have never ended, with most everyone favoring the classic original to the detriment of the show.  By having Norman (and not Norma) kill Sam (and not Marion),  they made the show's shower scene its own scene while still including some elements of the original scene as a nod to that classic.  The second really good thing about it was that it was the logical culmination of Norman finally understanding who Norma is, why she does what she does,  and how she is part of him.  He is MPD and finally understanding his MPD.  Someone who is MPD literally is multiple people with multiple personalities (I have a friend who has MPD).  What Norma said was correct, she is not imaginary, she is real.  She is one of Norman's personalities.  The fact that it is him doing the killing and not Norma is significant.  Instead of simply blacking out and letting Norma take over, he's doing the (albeit murderous) deed, finally proving to himself and Norma that he can handle things without relying on her.  This is an awareness and character growth in Norman that doesn't happen in the movie, and plays to the strengths of the show.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Dobian

[skotnikov]

23 minutes ago, Peanut6711 said:

I can't help but feel that some of the differences between the film and the show comes from simply the difference of a roughly 2 hour movie and the limitations with character development/background in that time frame vs. a five season (roughly 50 hours counting commercials) series.  There's definitely going to be more ambiguity in the movie than the show.  But I don't think Hitch's Norman is pure evil though as evident by the sequel where Normal has a chance at starting over but is perhaps driven back to insanity by Lila's agenda.

It is always possible to remain ambiguous even for many seasons (see: "Hannibal", the TV-Show)  

[Fable]

48 minutes ago, Dobian said:

 

I liked the twist.  For one, they didn't just copy Psycho.  If they did that, the comparisons between the Bates Motel shower scene and the classic original would have never ended, with most everyone favoring the classic original to the detriment of the show.  By having Norman (and not Norma) kill Sam (and not Marion),  they made the show's shower scene its own scene while still including some elements of the original scene as a nod to that classic.  The second really good thing about it was that it was the logical culmination of Norman finally understanding who Norma is, why she does what she does,  and how she is part of him.  He is MPD and finally understanding his MPD.  Someone who is MPD literally is multiple people with multiple personalities (I have a friend who has MPD).  What Norma said was correct, she is not imaginary, she is real.  She is one of Norman's personalities.  The fact that it is him doing the killing and not Norma is significant.  Instead of simply blacking out and letting Norma take over, he's doing the (albeit murderous) deed, finally proving to himself and Norma that he can handle things without relying on her.  This is an awareness and character growth in Norman that doesn't happen in the movie, and plays to the strengths of the show.

 

I agree with this. 

I know some people were disappointed in the shower scene, but I really appreciated it.  There was some poetic justice in Norman killing Sam for abusing women.  When he killed his father, he was in a fugue state and had no memory of it.  With Loomis, it seems he was finally able to acknowledge his anger towards his father and what he had done to him and Norma. 

Killing Marion was anticipated and expected, but usually I like the unpredictable, so I’m glad the show runners have made this their own story while still calling back to the movie. 

[truthaboutluv]

Quote

That twist was the first big misstep in the series, IMHO. I'm having trouble articulating why the switch in shower victims didn't work for me. The closest I can get is that I've always thought that Norman's killings (in the original film) were reactive, based on either inner turmoil between the Mother personality and the Norman personality, or straight up fear. This episode's murder of Sam Loomis was an act of anger and retribution, and appeared to be a result of Norman agreeing with Mother that Loomis deserved to die. Loomis was no threat to Norman, and lust was not an issue. Add in the lack of a wig and dress during the murder, and Norman's altered line "Oh Mother, what have I done..." - and it's clear that Series Norman's version of mental illness makes him far more proactively aggressive than Film Norman was.

Just caught up on the episode and I read all the comments first because I was curious what the reaction was to that big twist. Personally, I liked it. Regarding the bolded, in my opinion, we didn't really know that was the cause of Norman's killings because the film starts with Norman already completely insane.

Even with the therapist's scene at the end, it was more an explanation of Norman's dual personalities and to help the others understand that although Norman physically killed these people, he did so as Mother, an alternate personality based around his real mother who'd been dead for years. But other than that, we never got an explanation of how exactly his mother died, how he became as crazy as he did, etc. So I can't agree that the show deviated in a way with Norman's motives.

Plus, while there has been a confused sexual component to Norman's psychosis, many of Mother's murders have been people she, and by that token, Norman, deemed bad people - his father, Ms. Watson who was preying on him, Emma's mother who apparently had been a shitty parent to her, Jim Blackwell who was there to kill him. The one kill that might have been least motivated by thinking the person was a bad person, was Bradley but that's because Mother felt that Bradley was trying to take Norman away from her. 

But from the start, we were told that Norman goes into these dark rages where he blacks out, even when he doesn't become Mother. We saw it with both Dylan and Caleb when he tried to attack them both, we saw it when that crazy guy Norma dated in Season 1 held her, Dylan and Norman up. It was accurate in my opinion when Mother said in this episode that Norman created her for the things he felt too afraid and weak to handle. 

3 hours ago, Bec said:

It's just not very terrifying when only the "bad" characters get killed. It's scarier when relatively innocent characters could get killed. The unknown is scary. When the reason something is happening is known, it ceases to be scary.

YMMV, I guess for me this show was never about being scary. As others noted, unlike the film where many went in not knowing what was coming, so many began this series waiting for the moment Marion gets stabbed in the shower. There was really no mystery and scary to the show in my opinion because we always knew where the story was going. Norman goes completely mad, murders his mother, then has an alternate personality that becomes her and he kills people. We've all been watching and waiting and expecting it. 

For me, this show has always been a tragedy more than anything else. It's about watching the deterioration of a seemingly sweet and kind boy into a monster. It was about a damaged woman who clung to her son to an almost unhealthy degree and in the end, that obsessive need to protect and keep him close ended up killing her. YMMV but I've always seen the show as a psychological drama more than anything else and certainly not a horror like the original film. 

Edited March 29, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[Dr.Jacoby]

I loved it despite the questionable Rihanna acting, and I can't believe I saw the twist coming- I'm usually so unobservant! (as soon as Marion started smashing the car up I thought "...if Sam can't sleep in his car when his wife throws him out I wonder if he'll end up staying at the motel....hey, does that mean he'll be the one...?" )

The scene where Norman is hugging Mother in the kitchen and it cuts to him leaning on thin air amongst the mess and talking to no-one was one of the creepiest and saddest in the series to me, it's easy to forget he's really very alone and very ill when he's sparring with 'Norma', and that quick cut to an empty shot was a bit of a jolt. Freddie Highmore is such a joy to watch (especially in closeup eye-acting scenes) I hope he gets lots of work after this.

[ganesh]

23 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

 I feel for Dylan and can understand why he wants to find out the truth, but as usual, a part of me just wants him and Emma to never, ever go to White Pines Bay again, because I fear for their safety.

All of me wants them to not go there. 

12 hours ago, smorbie said:

Sam Loomis (who's died twice this year) who got stabbified instead of Marian.

I hope he doesn't get typecast!

3 hours ago, Dobian said:

 If they did that, the comparisons between the Bates Motel shower scene and the classic original would have never ended, with most everyone favoring the classic original to the detriment of the show.  

Yes, I compared this to the classic "Et tu Brutus". You know it's coming and it's going to be compared to every single scene. Rome did a great take on it, and they did a great take here that fit with the show. 

I didn't see it coming. I thought Marion was going to get into a car accident from being on the phone (ha!), and they'd find the money, the clothes in the motel, the hole in the wall and pin Norman for it. 

I actually laughed at the first overhead shot of Sam in the shower when I figured it out.

I don't think anyone will be able to kill Norman, but if he does die, it will be because he finally kills "Norma" with is obviously himself. 

[Stringey]

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

All of me wants them to not go there. 

I hope he doesn't get typecast!

Yes, I compared this to the classic "Et tu Brutus". You know it's coming and it's going to be compared to every single scene. Rome did a great take on it, and they did a great take here that fit with the show. 

I didn't see it coming. I thought Marion was going to get into a car accident from being on the phone (ha!), and they'd find the money, the clothes in the motel, the hole in the wall and pin Norman for it. 

I actually laughed at the first overhead shot of Sam in the shower when I figured it out.

I don't think anyone will be able to kill Norman, but if he does die, it will be because he finally kills "Norma" with is obviously himself. 

This reminds me of some clip I saw before the season premiered. Mother is about to shove Norman's head into what appears a jail toilet. She says something but I cannot remember what but it was something alluding to it being then end or its all over now.  Maybe it's Norma that kills Norman and this is how Norman dies or Norman's body is revived by somebody and it is of course seen as a suicide attempt. The movie ends with Mother now having basically taken over just as the Mother personality has taken over for the most part in the movie at the end.

[green]

15 hours ago, smorbie said:

Of course there's something rotten going on.  Emmys go to the most politically correct activist or a show that's been defined as edgy and trendy (in other words, one no one wants to watch)

Freddy Highmore is a great young actor.  But so is Rami Malek who won the last Emmy for actor in a drama.  He was just as good and just as brilliant in just as good and brilliant a show in Mr Robot which, ironically, is also in large measure a psychological drama about the lead character's tenuous hold on reality centered around his relationship with a parent as well.  

Praise Highmore if you wish, certainly.  Wish he had won an Emmy, sure.  But please not by taking swipes at an equally talented young actor in an equally great series.  I love both series and would have a hard time choosing between them.  But the fact is you should not have competition in the arts as far as I'm concerned.  Embrace both actors and both shows.

Great episode.  I've been away awhile but catching up with the series again just in time for it to end I see.  That kitchen scene was fantastic and I loved the twist.

Edited March 29, 2017 by green

[Stringey]

11 hours ago, Anela said:

I mentioned in another thread, that I'd been spoiled. I wasn't spoiled for *that*. I figured it would happen, though, once Sam entered the hotel room, since he had nowhere else to go, and was waiting for Marion.

I do hope that Marion got away, and that Norman didn't imagine that. This is where I feel sad for him: he knows something's wrong, he's realizing the full extent of it, and he told her to leave. 

You know what I was just about to say that maybe it was all in Norman's head(the part about him begging and practically pushing her out the door to save her from mother). And that the show is right now intentionally messing with our heads and we will see Norman discovering Marions body somewhere killed in a different way. However then I think about the other scenes with the car bashing and her driving away and throwing out the phone and realize it is all real. Norman clearly did not imagine Marion getting away. The concept that he could have is kind of cool though.

[Stringey]

5 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

Just caught up on the episode and I read all the comments first because I was curious what the reaction was to that big twist. Personally, I liked it. Regarding the bolded, in my opinion, we didn't really know that was the cause of Norman's killings because the film starts with Norman already completely insane.

Even with the therapist's scene at the end, it was more an explanation of Norman's dual personalities and to help the others understand that although Norman physically killed these people, he did so as Mother, an alternate personality based around his real mother who'd been dead for years. But other than that, we never got an explanation of how exactly his mother died, how he became as crazy as he did, etc. So I can't agree that the show deviated in a way with Norman's motives.

Plus, while there has been a confused sexual component to Norman's psychosis, many of Mother's murders have been people she, and by that token, Norman, deemed bad people - his father, Ms. Watson who was preying on him, Emma's mother who apparently had been a shitty parent to her, Jim Blackwell who was there to kill him. The one kill that might have been least motivated by thinking the person was a bad person, was Bradley but that's because Mother felt that Bradley was trying to take Norman away from her. 

But from the start, we were told that Norman goes into these dark rages where he blacks out, even when he doesn't become Mother. We saw it with both Dylan and Caleb when he tried to attack them both, we saw it when that crazy guy Norma dated in Season 1 held her, Dylan and Norman up. It was accurate in my opinion when Mother said in this episode that Norman created her for the things he felt too afraid and weak to handle. 

YMMV, I guess for me this show was never about being scary. As others noted, unlike the film where many went in not knowing what was coming, so many began this series waiting for the moment Marion gets stabbed in the shower. There was really no mystery and scary to the show in my opinion because we always knew where the story was going. Norman goes completely mad, murders his mother, then has an alternate personality that becomes her and he kills people. We've all been watching and waiting and expecting it. 

For me, this show has always been a tragedy more than anything else. It's about watching the deterioration of a seemingly sweet and kind boy into a monster. It was about a damaged woman who clung to her son to an almost unhealthy degree and in the end, that obsessive need to protect and keep him close ended up killing her. YMMV but I've always seen the show as a psychological drama more than anything else and certainly not a horror like the original film. 

I think I see this story and show more of what I like to call psychological horror. Horror that is real and is about the tragedies in life that don't need anything supernatural to make them tragedies. I do got to say though my God that house sure has horror written all over it. It's actually more scary looking inside than out and especially with all the darkness and dim lights. And the antiquated furniture makes it even that much creepier.

[mj2000]

WOW! What a twist! I loved it! I think this show has really made the story of Norman Bates and his "mother" their own. Personally, I liked that the show veered off the path of the movie in certain ways. Think of it this way, if this show went along with the movie exactly, there would really be no suspense. Anyone who had watched the movie would have known how the show was going to go. There would have been nothing new. Marion being able to go free while Sam was killed is a perfect example of bringing something new to the table. 

[smorbie]

4 hours ago, green said:

Freddy Highmore is a great young actor.  But so is Rami Malek who won the last Emmy for actor in a drama.  He was just as good and just as brilliant in just as good and brilliant a show in Mr Robot which, ironically, is also in large measure a psychological drama about the lead character's tenuous hold on reality centered around his relationship with a parent as well.  

Praise Highmore if you wish, certainly.  Wish he had won an Emmy, sure.  But please not by taking swipes at an equally talented young actor in an equally great series.  I love both series and would have a hard time choosing between them.  But the fact is you should not have competition in the arts as far as I'm concerned.  Embrace both actors and both shows.

Great episode.  I've been away awhile but catching up with the series again just in time for it to end I see.  That kitchen scene was fantastic and I loved the twist.

My comment was a general one.  I certainly didn't "take swipes" at Malek.  I had no idea he was nominated or won.  I quit following awards a long time ago.  I feel actors are too well paid for what they do and spend entirely too much time congratulating themselves on being wonderful and superior to others.

[smorbie]

9 hours ago, Fable said:

I agree with this. 

I know some people were disappointed in the shower scene, but I really appreciated it.  There was some poetic justice in Norman killing Sam for abusing women.  When he killed his father, he was in a fugue state and had no memory of it.  With Loomis, it seems he was finally able to acknowledge his anger towards his father and what he had done to him and Norma. 

Killing Marion was anticipated and expected, but usually I like the unpredictable, so I’m glad the show runners have made this their own story while still calling back to the movie. 

You bring up an interesting points.  Multiple personalities are not insane; they are, theoretically, people who suffered abuse as children (as Norman did, if not physically, then by watching his mother be abused).  Sometimes the child can't handle what is going on and his psyche splits, creating someone who can deal with it.  The treatment is to get the personalities to recognize the existence of the other (the host personality is unaware of others, but he others know they are sharing a body, and they know when they have to come out and help).  Once that has been accomplished, the task is to get the personalities to integrate.

I wonder whether we are watching the Norman/Mother personalities do just that.  Norman is aware of Mother, and he knows why she's there.  Now, he's beginning to perform the tasks she normally handles.  Only, since his original personality was , not just a multiple personality, but also insane, he's now clearly much, much worse.

[Kid]

10 hours ago, Dr.Jacoby said:

The scene where Norman is hugging Mother in the kitchen and it cuts to him leaning on thin air amongst the mess and talking to no-one was one of the creepiest and saddest in the series to me, it's easy to forget he's really very alone and very ill when he's sparring with 'Norma', and that quick cut to an empty shot was a bit of a jolt. Freddie Highmore is such a joy to watch (especially in closeup eye-acting scenes) I hope he gets lots of work after this.

When he was very young, he was in a schmultsy movie called August Rush and held his own in scenes with Robin Williams!  ANY actor that can do that at any age is gifted.

 He leaves you feeling sympathy for Norman which one does not feel for Tony Perkin's Norman.  

[luna1122]

Autumn Rush was a truly bad movie.

Freddie has improved and honed his craft considerably over the years. I first saw him in 'finding neverland' with Johnny Depp and Kate Winslet. When he was first announced as the new Norman, I was a little disappointed. Anthony Perkins was so pretty in his heyday, and such an indelible Norman Bates (and I felt great sympathy for his Norman, btw...tho we didn't get nearly as much backstory, he was also clearly mentally ill and not actually evil, his Norman was very vulnerable and sad) that I didn't think Freddie was up to the job. The first season or so, I still didn't think so. But I do now.  He's made Norman his own, and he's excellent.

Lots of great shows and performances never win awards ("Hannibal" and Mads Mikkelsen? never noticed by the EMMYs, which is criminal. likewise Walton Goggins' Boyd Crowder in "Justified"--nominated once but never again, and didn't win) and sometimes those who do win are also truly gifted, sometimes not. Awards are nice, but they don't mean that much, in the long run, I don't think. still, it's a shame neither Vera or Freddy have never been nominated.

Edited March 29, 2017 by luna1122

[queenanne]

On 3/28/2017 at 3:14 AM, giovannif7 said:

That twist was the first big misstep in the series, IMHO. I'm having trouble articulating why the switch in shower victims didn't work for me. The closest I can get is that I've always thought that Norman's killings (in the original film) were reactive, based on either inner turmoil between the Mother personality and the Norman personality, or straight up fear. This episode's murder of Sam Loomis was an act of anger and retribution, and appeared to be a result of Norman agreeing with Mother that Loomis deserved to die. Loomis was no threat to Norman, and lust was not an issue. Add in the lack of a wig and dress during the murder, and Norman's altered line "Oh Mother, what have I done..." - and it's clear that Series Norman's version of mental illness makes him far more proactively aggressive than Film Norman was.

I was also disappointed at the lack of shrieking violins during the murder, as well as the missing crossfade from the shot of water circling the shower drain to the closeup of the victim's eye. Such classic sound and imagery!

 

On 3/28/2017 at 8:02 AM, BooBear said:

I agree. Well I am of two minds:

On the one hand: Not taking out Marion was a big betrayal to something most people have been waiting for from the start. It is *THE* moment that makes people  turn in and something we have been looking forward to for 4 years. Not to mention that part of the drama and horror is that an innocent woman dies because Norman is so bad off.  Who cares if bad guy Sam Loomis buys it?  He deserves it. 

On the other hand this result was more consistent with THIS show's Norman. It does make more sense that THIS Norman is more protective of women I could see things going down this way.  Though of course he has killed women.  Sam Loomis' disappearance is likely to cause more interest in Norman than some total stranger that no one really knows is there.  

When Marion managed to leave via Norman's pushing her out of the motel.. what I thought was going to happen was that this was all in Norman's head and it would have been revealed at the end of the episode that Norman killed her during the shower and was just mentally trying to save her after the fact. I really thought from the shower on was going to turn out to be in Norman's mind. 

I really hope Dylan is ok. I did tear up at his reaction to his mother's death.  And I liked that it was explained that Norman mislead them a bit so they wouldn't come back. 

I too missed the violins.

I personally feel it's fitting to have Sam killed because Norman knows he is bad, and is angry at how he treats Madeline (and Marion, come to think of it).  I think sparing Marion does make Norman look like a nicer and better human being than killing her, which may be necessary to keep the audience watching and still sympathizing with him.  It also, frankly, seems like the kind of feminist feeling Norma would have had while she was alive, which is nice continuity.

Edited March 29, 2017 by queenanne

[smorbie]

29 minutes ago, Kid said:

When he was very young, he was in a schmultsy movie called August Rush and held his own in scenes with Robin Williams!  ANY actor that can do that at any age is gifted.

 He leaves you feeling sympathy for Norman which one does not feel for Tony Perkin's Norman.  

Perkins' Norman had a slyness to him that Highmore has chosen not to convey.  It makes it easier to care about him.

[peacheslatour]

Quote

Norman is aware of Mother, and he knows why she's there.  Now, he's beginning to perform the tasks she normally handles.

"Now he was never all Norman, but he was often only Mother."

[sugarbaker design]

51 minutes ago, luna1122 said:

still, it's a shame neither Vera or Freddy have never been nominated.

Vera was nominated, once, for Best Actress in 2013.

[MaggieG]

I really enjoyed the twist! I rewatched Psycho last Friday and I enjoyed seeing all the little call backs to the movie, especially the line about the Bates Motel stationary.

During Marion's shower scene I kept thinking "ok, when is Norman popping up?" but also that the makeup department did a good job covering all of Rihanna's tattoos.

Norman making his own sandwich saying to Mother he was no longer going to eat "pretend food" made me giggle.

[Ohwell]

1 hour ago, Kid said:

He leaves you feeling sympathy for Norman which one does not feel for Tony Perkin's Norman.

I feel the exact opposite.  I never felt any sympathy for this Norman and much preferred the Tony Perkins Norman.

I also don't think that Sam Loomis "deserved" to die.  Yes, he was unfaithful but that doesn't mean he warranted a shower stabbing, just as Marion didn't deserve to die in the original Psycho.  

[Virtual]

H-H-HOLY CRAP!!

Like so many others, I expected Marion to be the one who was killed by Norman. Not necessarily in the shower, but I still expected her to be killed by him while he was blacked out. I for sure expected that to happen when Marion started to get intimate with Norman, but Norman actually had control over it (now that he knows all about it) and told Marion to go, giving her advice on what to do to not get caught with the money she stole.

It was definitely a great twist to have Sam be killed in the shower scene instead. Even I never expected what happened at the end, especially after my thoughts a few weeks ago regarding Norman. I brought up how he'd never killed anyone as himself in his own persona, while planning to survive himself. Well, he certainly has now (Mother coerced him, but still, it counts! He did not black out, as confirmed by him saying 'Mother, what have I done?').

Norman will be even further beyond the point of no return after this. I thought there was still a chance for him last season had he stayed in Pineview, but even if he were to check himself back in right now, there's ZERO chance for him. I think the knowledge that he has killed someone intentionally will further pull him downward. He did the same with Norma, but in that instance, he planned on taking himself with her and when that didn't happen, he did everything he could to block that out of his mind and convince himself she was still alive but was hiding from the rest of the world.

Norman DID put himself on my crap list for a while in this episode with his attitude towards Dylan on the phone. It'd be one thing if he just stuck with telling Dylan things like "I didn't know how to get ahold of you" or "I couldn't bring myself to tell you she committed suicide" but he had the nerve to tell Dylan that HE was the one who cut off contact and didn't care when it was Norman who did that. I'm glad Dylan brought up how he HAD contacted Norman and tried to reach out to him, only to be told it was best if they didn't talk anymore. Who wants to bet that the scene in the previews with Dylan throwing Norman on the Mercedes is what happens when he first sees him upon coming back?

But overall, I still feel bad for Norman. All he ever wanted was what so many others have easily: a normal life. Norma and Mother ruined any shot of that ever happening for him. That, in my opinion, is the biggest tragedy of Bates Motel.

[Whimsy]

3 hours ago, Kid said:

When he was very young, he was in a schmultsy movie called August Rush and held his own in scenes with Robin Williams!  ANY actor that can do that at any age is gifted.

I unabashedly loved that movie but only because of Freddie.  I also loved him in Charlie & the Chocolate Factory. 

I think the acting on this show (besides the stunt casting) is truly stellar.  I'm sad that this is almost over.

[smorbie]

2 hours ago, MaggieG said:

I really enjoyed the twist! I rewatched Psycho last Friday and I enjoyed seeing all the little call backs to the movie, especially the line about the Bates Motel stationary.

During Marion's shower scene I kept thinking "ok, when is Norman popping up?" but also that the makeup department did a good job covering all of Rihanna's tattoos.

Norman making his own sandwich saying to Mother he was no longer going to eat "pretend food" made me giggle.

The funny thing is he never ate pretend food.  He just messed up the kitchen making real food for an imaginary person.  I like when she took credit for cleaning the kitchen.  My guess is Chick cleaned the house (while wearing all the clothes he owned).

2 hours ago, Ohwell said:

I feel the exact opposite.  I never felt any sympathy for this Norman and much preferred the Tony Perkins Norman.

I also don't think that Sam Loomis "deserved" to die.  Yes, he was unfaithful but that doesn't mean he warranted a shower stabbing, just as Marion didn't deserve to die in the original Psycho.  

I agree.  But, Mother clearly thought otherwise.

18 minutes ago, GenL said:

I unabashedly loved that movie but only because of Freddie.  I also loved him in Charlie & the Chocolate Factory. 

I think the acting on this show (besides the stunt casting) is truly stellar.  I'm sad that this is almost over.

Never watched Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.  Not that I mind a reboot, obviously, given that this is a Bates Motel forum.  But to me Willie Wonka will always have a twinkle in his eyes and curly, curly hair.

[smorbie]

20 minutes ago, GenL said:

I unabashedly loved that movie but only because of Freddie.  I also loved him in Charlie & the Chocolate Factory. 

I think the acting on this show (besides the stunt casting) is truly stellar.  I'm sad that this is almost over.

He also more than held his own with Winslet and Depp, two very good actors, in Finding Neverland.  That's a lot for a kid to do.

[Dobian]

39 minutes ago, smorbie said:

The funny thing is he never ate pretend food.  He just messed up the kitchen making real food for an imaginary person.  I like when she took credit for cleaning the kitchen.  My guess is Chick cleaned the house (while wearing all the clothes he owned).

I agree.  But, Mother clearly thought otherwise.

Never watched Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.  Not that I mind a reboot, obviously, given that this is a Bates Motel forum.  But to me Willie Wonka will always have a twinkle in his eyes and curly, curly hair.

I will always favor the original over Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.  Gene Wilder got it right, his Wonka was amazing.  Depp, for me anyway, got it wrong.  It was Michael Jackson as Wonka.

[FoundTime]

What was most striking to me about the shower-murder scene was that, in the midst of working in a lot of shots the movie used, it didn't do the one thing that was always part of what made Psycho such brilliant filmmaking -- you never actually saw the knife touch Marion, but it was edited in such a way that you felt that you had. Bates's take definitely did not shy away from showing the knife pierce Sam's flesh. In fact, there was one shot where he's stabbed in the back that the camera lingered long enough that I started to feel squicky -- and I've got a pretty high gore quotient.

Edited March 29, 2017 by FoundTime
Because "did" and "didn't" mean two different things

[Ohwell]

1 minute ago, FoundTime said:

What was most striking to me about the shower-murder scene was that, in the midst of working in a lot of shots the movie used, it didn't do the one thing that was always part of what made Psycho such brilliant filmmaking -- you never actually saw the knife touch Marion, but it was edited in such a way that you felt that you had. Bates's take definitely did not shy away from showing the knife pierce Sam's flesh. In fact, there was one shot where he's stabbed in the back that the camera lingered long enough that I started to feel squicky -- and I've got a pretty high gore quotient.

What made the original movie so terrifying was just the sound of the knife piercing the flesh; I didn't have to see it to be scared out of my mind.

[DonitsYum]

There really is just one word for the acting here:  Outstanding.  This needs to be Freddie's Emmy submission.  It really doesn't get any better.

I never wanted a carbon copy of Psycho however I love the call-outs to the film.  Was the music at the beginning, when Marion drives to the motel, the same as the film?  If not, it was still a good choice.  Sounded like a throwback to the 50's & 60's instrumental film soundtracks.  The shower scene didn't need screechy violins, IMO.  I remember my parents talking about going to see Psycho in the theater and my Dad's buddy jumped into his lap at one point.  They joked about it for years.

[smorbie]

1 hour ago, Dobian said:

I will always favor the original over Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.  Gene Wilder got it right, his Wonka was amazing.  Depp, for me anyway, got it wrong.  It was Michael Jackson as Wonka.

I'm not going to comment because I never gave it a chance.  I love Gene Wilder and thought he was a confection perfection as Wonka.  Some things don't need a remake.  Some things are perfect just the way they are.

[peacheslatour]

2 hours ago, Ohwell said:

What made the original movie so terrifying was just the sound of the knife piercing the flesh; I didn't have to see it to be scared out of my mind.

They got that sound by stabbing a melon. Also in the movie that scene took six days to shoot with seventy seven different camera angles and 50 cuts.Talk about editing genius.

[truthaboutluv]

YMMV but as compelling as I found Perkins in Psycho, I never felt sympathy like I do for this Norman because in my opinion, the audience never really knew him. When we meet Norman in Psycho, he is already completely batshit crazy. Sure the old guy at the end of the film provides some exposition but essentially it was watching a seemingly sane guy turn out to be a complete nutjob.

There was never time to build any real investment in the character. With Bates Motel, I feel like I have gotten to know Norman and seen his descent into madness. More importantly, I feel like we've been shown many times that he's not evil but a really, really damaged person who probably never stood a chance with an equally damaged woman for a mother. I am invested in this Norman's story so that allows me to sympathize with him.

Sure, I would be more than fine with him being caught in the end because he's incredibly dangerous and completely unwell but I still feel incredible sympathy and empathy for him. 

Edited March 29, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[Rustybones]

nvm

Edited March 29, 2017 by Rustybones

[FoundTime]

1 hour ago, peacheslatour said:

They got that sound by stabbing a melon. Also in the movie that scene took six days to shoot with seventy seven different camera angles and 50 cuts.Talk about editing genius.

You can go into a real wormhole on the interwebs reading about how Psycho was made. I was a film minor in college and it was one of the films we studied. I have really appreciated (and, okay, geeked out over) how Bates has incorporated various technical aspects of its source material. (And elements of the script sometimes, as with the hotel stationery line mentioned upthread.)

[peacheslatour]

1 minute ago, FoundTime said:

You can go into a real wormhole on the interwebs reading about how Psycho was made. I was a film minor in college and it was one of the films we studied. I have really appreciated (and, okay, geeked out over) how Bates has incorporated various technical aspects of its source material. (And elements of the script sometimes, as with the hotel stationery line mentioned upthread.)

And rightly so. Anyone who wants to be involved in film making would do well to study Psycho. And I completely agree that Bates is a master class in treating source material with all the respect it deserves.

[Mick Lady]

2 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

They got that sound by stabbing a melon. Also in the movie that scene took six days to shoot with seventy seven different camera angles and 50 cuts.Talk about editing genius.

Really!? That's just awesome! I didn't know that, and you're right, that is genius.