Daenerys 'Stormborn' Targaryen: The Breaker Of Chains, Mother Of Dragons Etc

[Conan Troutman]

I think her storyline could be really good next season. Dany was great in season one, but she's been running around in circles ever since. Now that she's completed the circle by being back to square one (geographically, at least) again, I hope we get to see the next step for her. It's going to be a big step for her, but one she'll have to take. The fact that she's probably going to have do it completely on her own makes it all the more interesting.

[Lady S.]

Yeah, I hope this is a new start for her, going back to her s1 roots feels like a good sign.

Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon allied with their enemies after the rebellion. Robert employed Targyrean loyalists as personal guards and courtiers. Ned Stark routinely allowed Northern lords to do as they may - a real distinction from the Southern lords. His loyalty to them still echoes. He really sucked up a lot to agree to be Hand for a friend. Enemies' children are often raised and married into families - Myrcella and Theon. Tywin killing babies was considered still egregious. The fact that Daenerys would even consider executing Tyrion instead of treating him like the giant unearned gift that he was shows that she is still an half an idiot.

Bob kept on and forgave everyone he didn't have a personal grudge against but wanted everyone closely related to Rhaegar dead.

One of Ned's lords who did as he pleased was Roose Bolton, riding around hanging his subjects and raping their wives, so I'm not sure his laxness is really an example to be emulated. And Theon was a hostage taken as a term of Balon's surrender, not really the same as Myrcella's situation.

Tyrion is a confessed murderer delivered by a desperate lovesick idiot, she couldn't trust him until she actually got to know him. And if she really wanted him dead for what Jaime and Tywin did, she wouldn't have given him that chance at all.

[Rocket]

There's a lot here that I'm not sure is relevant, but I definitely disagree that Dany has to be bloodthirsty and indiscriminate in applying torture and punishment. In fact, I think it will be her undoing. Not all rulers need to go full on iron fist, and the best ones inspired both fear and love.

 

I was not clear I did not mean bloodthirsty and indiscriminate killing in a random way. I agree it must be a velvet hand in an iron glove. I did mean that if back then you had a populace with a large number of enemies hiding inside it you had to be willing to wipe that group out, innocent or guilty inside that group. And before modern thought the population hiding the enemies are guilty of their actions by hiding them so others seeing that population purged will think that they had it coming.

 

Danny's killing of the head of former slaver house not a killing of an innocent man to the non slavers in the town. As a slaver I treat it as a suspended death sentence converted to death. Still it was dumb, she needed to either purge all the slavers or not done the random crucifixion and latter this act if she wanted to attempt to keep the slavers productive and alive. Of course she did not have the intelligence network she is about to get so she had no way of separating guilty from the less guilty their are no innocents who are adults in the slaver population. This is why I advocated killing them all after she had already done the crucifixion there was no way to win them. Of course as former slavers their probably was no way to win them over. The defeated Southern Slave owners after the civil war established the next best thing to slavery with share cropping and segregation as soon as they could. 

 

Twyin Lanister's pillaging and raping a area over a dispute with the actions of a wife without the Kings permission went over the line of the rules of the time. Also if you were oppressing your whole population a purge of just one area will be considered a we are next action and probably cause that area to rise. Thus Twyin got the Brotherhood without Banners and maybe drove the Sparrows into popularity. Still if Twyin had lived his quick crushing of the Sparrows would have worked and eventually he would have hunted the Brotherhood down without other distractions. But Twyin would never be considered a good ruler. 

 

Peters killing of everyone in the area of revolt only cemented his rule not causing any backlash. Peter's torture and then horrible executions was of the soldiers who earlier in his rule attempted to overthrow him. As the author of pulitzer prize winning"Peter the Great his life and world" by Robert K. Massie stated "He did not destroy the Streltsy (the troops that rebelled) simply to wreak vengeance, or to expose one specific plot, but to make an example, to terrify, to force submission. The lesson of the Streltsy, burned in blood and fire, was one from which we today recoil, but it cemented Peter's reign. It gave him the power to work his reforms and --- for better or worse --- to revolutionize Russian society. 

 

One sign of the transition from this principle to our modern one is the New York draft riots in the civil war. The Union army commander gave an order to kill anything that moved on the streets and they did so opening fire on the crowds and then bayonetting many. An officer spotting the leader hiding on a secound floor balcony borrowed a rifle and shot the leader dead. The US Navy opened fire, in a sustained bombardment, on the city areas involved no attempt to avoid civilian casualties. The fact that the Union commander was willing to do this shows that the past had considered this ok but the public outrage in many quarters showed that no longer would this type of behavior be tolerated against white northerners. Unfortunately the South and Indians were still fair game took a lot longer to apply this thought to other races. 

 

I'm certain Danny's breaking the wheel means destroying the power of the nobility establishing a non feudal monarchy with all the power in the Crown and little to the nobles, like most countries of Europe went to over time. Thus with the nobles having no armies just one central one under the Crown the game of thrones ends as far as different powers striving for the throne, civil war over succession still possible but a clear succession rule combined with a independent court and council of elders, the prior small council, to remove the mentally unable to rule would reduce that. Royal forts everywhere will cement central rule. The limitation of history on the Greats is knowing how much good they have done in a period impossible for a democracy to do, leaving the Greats still preferring one man rule. And in Westros their is no sign yet of an Enlightenment type thought emerging so with out the philosophic backing the people will want a Queen not democracy. But Danny could, as some did, establish a independent court system and establish a firm rule of law. Danny can also spell out the rights of the common man freeing them from their status of land slaves aka. serfs. If Danny breaks the power of the magister over controlling knowledge and establish competing universities Enlightenment thought could arise. Still wide spread democracy will probably need the printing press invented also. 

Edited June 18, 2015 by Rocket

[Spartan Girl]

Love her or hate her, you've got admire Dany staring down that Khal with zero fear in her eyes, stating flat-out that he wouldn't touch her.

 

Also had to laugh at the complete 180 he did when he found out that she was Khal Drogo's widow.  So I guess Khaleesis get *some* respect.

[CletusMusashi]

But honestly, shouldn't they have known who she was anyway? I mean, I realize they don't have internet, but they do trade with other groups occasionally, and I would sort of think it would be common knowledge by now that if you see a hot blonde chick with an enormous fucking DRAGON it's probably the Khaleesi.

Did they even ask about that thing? I mean, what the hell? 

"Holy shit! A dragon?Hey, Khal, do you see what I'm seeing?"

"Hell, yeah, dude. Boobies!"

Edited April 25, 2016 by CletusMusashi

[Athena]

But honestly, shouldn't they have known who she was anyway? I mean, I realize they don't have internet, but they do trade with other groups occasionally, and I would sort of think it would be common knowledge by now that if you see a hot blonde chick with an enormous fucking DRAGON it's probably the Khaleesi.

Did they even ask about that thing? I mean, what the hell? 

"Holy shit! A dragon?Hey, Khal, do you see what I'm seeing?"

"Hell, yeah, dude. Boobies!"

 

I think the show would telegraph if they had seen Drogon. Dany was bored since her kid was asleep and nursing his wounds so she went down the mountain to explore. The Dothraki came to a lone woman in the fields.

 

I am doubtful that they didn't know who she was, but the Dothraki don't really care about anyone not of their own. They tend to kill, take slaves, and go.

[glowbug]

Why exactly does Dany think that she'll be barren until the sun rises in the west and the sets in the east? Mirri Maz Duur never actually says she's barren in the show or that her womb will quicken again, it was only part of the prophecy in the books. I guess she's knows she's infertile because she doesn't have a period (if the show is like the books in this regard), but why would she think fulfilling that prophecy would make her fertile again?

Edited April 26, 2016 by glowbug

[DigitalCount]

Didn't she say that the dragons were the only children she'd ever have? Far from a definitive answer, but I was under the impression that she believes herself barren and was speaking in hyperbole to the tune of "when pigs fly."

[gwhh]

Is anyone brothered that her eyebrows are dark brown and her hair and skin so pale. Why do they not dye her eyebrows blonde also for the series?  It drives me nuts every time I see her face. 

[Umbelina]

On 4/26/2016 at 8:27 PM, glowbug said:

Why exactly does Dany think that she'll be barren until the sun rises in the west and the sets in the east? Mirri Maz Duur never actually says she's barren in the show or that her womb will quicken again, it was only part of the prophecy in the books. I guess she's knows she's infertile because she doesn't have a period (if the show is like the books in this regard), but why would she think fulfilling that prophecy would make her fertile again?

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Prophecies/Entry/1799

There is an idea out there about this prophesy and how the sun could rise in the west, the seas run dry, etc.  So if they are guessing correctly, she may not be infertile after all.

[RedheadZombie]

On ‎5‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 0:24 AM, gwhh said:

Is anyone brothered that her eyebrows are dark brown and her hair and skin so pale. Why do they not dye her eyebrows blonde also for the series?  It drives me nuts every time I see her face. 

I don't know if bother is the proper word, but I find them a bit distracting.  I think EC is a gorgeous woman, but her eyebrows are a little unusual.  Instead of arching or moving symmetrically when she's emotional, they kind of squiggle up like caterpillars.  I don't think I've ever seen anything like it.  It would help if the show would shape her brows a bit and lighten them. 

They should also lighten LH's eyebrows for Cersei, but LH does a lot of snarling in the character, which draws the eye to her mouth and teeth.

Viserys's brows were too dark too, but since he was a bit of a caricature, it didn't bother me.

[Lady S.]

On 4/26/2016 at 10:27 PM, glowbug said:

Why exactly does Dany think that she'll be barren until the sun rises in the west and the sets in the east? Mirri Maz Duur never actually says she's barren in the show or that her womb will quicken again, it was only part of the prophecy in the books. I guess she's knows she's infertile because she doesn't have a period (if the show is like the books in this regard), but why would she think fulfilling that prophecy would make her fertile again?

Dany has no reason to think it is a prophecy. I think MMD meant it as a curse.

Spoiler

What book fandom theorizes and what Dany believes are two different things.

 She's not expecting Drogo to actually come back from the dead, so this is just her way of saying she'll never have another man's baby. Like saying when pigs fly or when hell freezes over.

Edited May 21, 2016 by Lady S.

[Umbelina]

Actually there is a pretty good supposition out there that all those things are coming true for Dany, if you don't take the prophesy literally, which GRRM said not to do....

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Prophecies/Entry/1799

Edited May 21, 2016 by Umbelina
link

[glowbug]

3 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Dany has no reason to think it is a prophecy. I think MMD meant it as a curse.

  Reveal hidden contents

What book fandom theorizes and what Dany believes are two different things.

 She's not expecting Drogo to actually come back from the dead, so this is just her way of saying she'll never have another man's baby. Like saying when pigs fly or when hell freezes over.

My point was that MMD didn't actually mention Dany's fertility or lack there of in her curse/prophecy in the show. In the books she does so it would make sense for Book Dany to say she's barren until the sun rises in the west and sets in the east etc., whether she believes it will happen or not, but not in the show. Her womb quickening is not a condition of Drogo coming back to her in the show so why would she link her infertility to the other parts of the prophecy/curse? 

[Gertrude]

On 5/17/2016 at 11:24 PM, gwhh said:

Is anyone brothered that her eyebrows are dark brown and her hair and skin so pale. Why do they not dye her eyebrows blonde also for the series?  It drives me nuts every time I see her face. 

I think I read or saw something on this once. Basically it boiled down to the fact that it looked unnatural to lighten them and eyebrows are very expressive. (extremely so in Emelia's case - not a complaint, that girl is adorable). Keeping them dark gives her face more expression. Same reason contacts aren't used a lot - they hamper the actor's ability to use their face to give the best performance they can.

Edited May 21, 2016 by Gertrude

[Lady S.]

1 hour ago, glowbug said:

My point was that MMD didn't actually mention Dany's fertility or lack there of in her curse/prophecy in the show. In the books she does so it would make sense for Book Dany to say she's barren until the sun rises in the west and sets in the east etc., whether she believes it will happen or not, but not in the show. Her womb quickening is not a condition of Drogo coming back to her in the show so why would she link her infertility to the other parts of the prophecy/curse? 

My point is that it doesn't matter if MMD said so or not, Dany can still say the dragons are her only children and that she's never going to mate with any Diet Drogos. She doesn't have to be saying she can't bear children because MMD stipulated it was impossible, she could be re-using MMD's impossible stipulations to say that just as Drogo will never come back, she will never breed with Diet Drogo. As if MMD said Drogo would return when pigs fly, and Dany (believing herself to be barren for reasons unrelated to MMD) later said she would have a baby only when pigs fly. If we just ignore book context, I really don't see any plot hole here. Perhaps the show should better explain that Dany believes her reproductive system is damaged, but that plotpoint doesn't have to have anything to do with MMD.

[glowbug]

11 hours ago, Lady S. said:

My point is that it doesn't matter if MMD said so or not, Dany can still say the dragons are her only children and that she's never going to mate with any Diet Drogos. She doesn't have to be saying she can't bear children because MMD stipulated it was impossible, she could be re-using MMD's impossible stipulations to say that just as Drogo will never come back, she will never breed with Diet Drogo. As if MMD said Drogo would return when pigs fly, and Dany (believing herself to be barren for reasons unrelated to MMD) later said she would have a baby only when pigs fly. If we just ignore book context, I really don't see any plot hole here. Perhaps the show should better explain that Dany believes her reproductive system is damaged, but that plotpoint doesn't have to have anything to do with MMD.

I see what you're saying now but I interpret it differently because "when pigs fly" is a common idiom while MMD's prophecy is not as far as we know. If "when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east" were the Westerosi version of "when hell freezes over" I would agree but it was something specific to MMD so Dany referencing it in this instance makes me think she sees her infertility as part of the curse/prophecy. I'm being nitpicky, I know, but I still see it as an oversight on the writer's part. Just my opinion. 

[Hecate7]

Anyone else think that Rhaegal and Viserion are pregnant?

[gwhh]

On ‎5‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 11:36 PM, RedheadZombie said:

I don't know if bother is the proper word, but I find them a bit distracting.  I think EC is a gorgeous woman, but her eyebrows are a little unusual.  Instead of arching or moving symmetrically when she's emotional, they kind of squiggle up like caterpillars.  I don't think I've ever seen anything like it.  It would help if the show would shape her brows a bit and lighten them. 

They should also lighten LH's eyebrows for Cersei, but LH does a lot of snarling in the character, which draws the eye to her mouth and teeth.

Viserys's brows were too dark too, but since he was a bit of a caricature, it didn't bother me.

Daenerys blondes is a big part of the story.  Her browns as fried sausage eyebrows just don't fit the picture.  You can dye a woman eyebrows.  I know several woman that dye there eyebrows to match there hair.  You would think with all the hair and makeup people at there disposal on the set someone would notice that and take care of that! 

[Maximum Taco]

On 5/21/2016 at 5:23 PM, Hecate7 said:

Anyone else think that Rhaegal and Viserion are pregnant?

That's interesting.

I'm of the opinion the the dragons will all die by the time the series ends, but I hadn't counted on the possibility that one (or more) might leave a clutch of eggs behind before she passed.

[paigow]

7 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

That's interesting.

I'm of the opinion the the dragons will all die by the time the series ends, but I hadn't counted on the possibility that one (or more) might leave a clutch of eggs behind before she passed.

A few more generations of inbreeding should eventually produce a new Mother of Dragons somewhere in Westeros

[RedheadZombie]

On ‎5‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 5:23 PM, Hecate7 said:

Anyone else think that Rhaegal and Viserion are pregnant?

Has the show established they're female?

[Maximum Taco]

2 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

Has the show established they're female?

In the books,

Spoiler

There's no way to tell whether a dragon is male or female until she lays eggs (which would make her female) also according to Maester Aemon, dragons don't have an assigned gender. Instead they can change their gender according to need. If this is the case then it would be logical for at least one of Daenerys' three to have chosen to become female, in order for them to be able to reproduce.

Edited June 11, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[Hecate7]

7 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

Has the show established they're female?

Nobody knows what sex they are. They could be three females, three males, or two females and a male, or two males and a female. I merely speculate that they started out three males but like bearded dragons or African reed frogs, they changed, and now only Drogon remains male. Unless females are larger and more aggressive than males in this species, in which case Drogon is the female and has a clutch of eggs somewhere out there. But it would explain why Drogon is out there and wouldn't settle down, while Rheagal and Viserion didn't seem eager to fly away even when unchained. Maybe they have eggs down there and want to stay with them. Or maybe they've even hatched some. Or maybe Drogon's a girl and needed to lay her eggs as far away from her brothers as possible. They've got to be able to reproduce somehow.

Edited June 12, 2016 by Hecate7

[Hecate7]

On 5/15/2015 at 3:17 PM, DigitalCount said:

Yeah, I do think Dany has a specific desire for the people she kills to suffer while she's killing them, at least when it's vengeance. She's burned a bunch of people to death, with really only one occasion where it was necessary to kill them that way (Pyat Pree), she locked Doreah and Daxos in a vault to dehydrate over the course of days in utter darkness, why does she seem to be such a sadist? This most recent episode was the most ridiculous example where she didn't order one of her several former slave guards or her amoral boy toy to behead the man or stab him in the heart, nope, you're getting fried and ripped apart by dragons.

Theon butchered two children to save face. Did he deserve death? Yeah, probably. Did he deserve Ramsay? Doubtful. I don't think it's all the same just because he deserves to die.

It's not fair to count Doreah and Daxos--she locked them in the vault they were about to lock HER in. She was supposed to believe Daxos, walk into the vault looking for the gold, and voila. They would continue to make love and rule the city over her dead body--literally. I don't call that sadism--I call that hoist with their own petard. It was necessary to burn the slaver who wanted to buy Drogon, and it was necessary to kill Doreah and Daxos, and it was absolutely necessary to kill Pyat Pree. Where she went wrong, I think, was feeding anyone to the dragons. I think that was a very bad choice that is going to turn out to be costly to her on several levels. Have they eaten since? What if they became addicted? What if that's all they can eat now? Before, they were fine with whatever she gave them. Why aren't they eating now?

[Hecate7]

On 5/16/2015 at 9:32 AM, Maximum Taco said:

 

Just because something is fair, doesn't mean it's just or right or good.

 

An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.

Very true, and your theory that Dany might be a villainess is intriguing. I just meant that in that particular execution, Dany was not motivated by sadism, but partly by the convenience of the vault being there, and partly by the desire for the purest justice she could mete out. I don't think she takes pleasure from the pain of others, but she does take a great deal of pleasure in the idea that she is being righteous.

[FemmyV]

1 hour ago, Hecate7 said:

It's not fair to count Doreah and Daxos--she locked them in the vault they were about to lock HER in.

In some ways, Dany is like a cop: IIRC she hasn't willfully caused the death of anyone who didn't need killin'

[paigow]

2 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

It's not fair to count Doreah and Daxos

They were also responsible for most of her Dothraki crew getting killed, so IAB would call this a "righteous kill".

[Funzlerks]

For me, it is her smirkiness that bothers me.  Yeah, they deserved it but gloating is creepy.  

I hope Tyrion doesn't mind when his neighbors, a horde of Dothraki, tramples his vineyard and rapes to death all his servants.  Daenerys has the worst crew possible and I think trying to make Missandei and Grey Worm seem like interesting characters is propping Daenerys - who isn't even that interesting considering she is a dragon riding demi-god.

[Spartan Girl]

I don't think Dany is quite on the path of being the Mad Queen just yet, but like Sansa, she is proving herself to quite ruthless.

Love the byplay between her and Yara. Dany should have more female friends...although Yara implied she might have some more than friendship on her mind. And Dany's smile...wow. Tyrion could definitely see something was up.

Think there's any chance a of a Team Dragon pre-battle wine party the morning after, Grey a Worm and Missandei finally consummate their passion -- only to walk in on their queen in bed with Yara and Tyrion? Sounds like a bad fanfic, I know, but on this show, anything goes.

[SimoneS]

Some people will always judge women by different standards to men. Daenerys went from being controlled by the brother and husband to being an independent determined ruthless queen so of course, she is going "mad," etc. RME. Meanwhile, I don't remember much talk about Stannis being mad when he was stomping around determined to be king, having sex with Mellisandre to create a magical baby that he sent to murder his brother along with his willingness to sacrifice Gendry and his sacrifice of Shireen. 

Yes, Daenerys can be ruthless and determined, but she is also compassionate and she stands up for the weak and exploited. Even after making a decision, Daenerys will listen to advice of her councilors. She can be persuaded to take a different course of action to attain a better result. It is the sign of a wise ruler that she has chosen to surround herself with councilors with diverse backgrounds and experiences. Of all the potential rulers of Westeros in the Game, Daenerys is the best and the common people, especially will prosper under her rule.

Edited June 21, 2016 by SimoneS

[BigBeagle]

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Of all the potential rulers of Westeros in the Game, Daenerys is the best and the common people, especially will prosper under her rule.

My mind keeps going back to what Daario said earlier this season, words to the effect that Dany was a conqueror, not a ruler. So far, at least as the show has shown, that seems to be the case. But I do agree that the potential is there (compassion for the weak and exploited, listening to her counselors, etc.) for her to be a great ruler.

[Oscirus]

As long as Dany has either Tyrion or Davos as a hand, she should be fine as a ruler. But if she has a bad hand, it could be tragic.

[SimoneS]

53 minutes ago, BigBeagle said:

My mind keeps going back to what Daario said earlier this season, words to the effect that Dany was a conqueror, not a ruler. So far, at least as the show has shown, that seems to be the case. But I do agree that the potential is there (compassion for the weak and exploited, listening to her counselors, etc.) for her to be a great ruler.

You have to take anything Daario says about Daenerys with a huge grain of salt. He is in love with her. As Tyrion pointed out to Daario and Jorah, once she takes the Iron Throne their roles in her life will change by necessity. She will likely enter into a political marriage to cement her rule. We saw that she did just that with Hizdahr and how jealous Daario was. Daario isn't anxious for Daenerys to head to Westeros.

Edited June 21, 2016 by SimoneS

[Lady S.]

4 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Some people will always judge women by different standards to men. Daenerys went from being controlled by the brother and husband to being an independent determined ruthless queen so of course, she is going "mad," etc. RME. Meanwhile, I don't remember much talk about Stannis being mad when he was stomping around determined to be king, having sex with Mellisandre to create a magical baby that he sent to murder his brother along with his willingness to sacrifice Gendry and his sacrifice of Shireen. 

I think Dany has just been proven herself "gentler than Stannis" to use Varys's phrase by agreeing to give Yara autonomy in the Iron Islands so long as they work together. Tyrion points out that the other kingdoms may demand their independence as well, and Dany says Yara is only asking and the others are free to ask as well. Can you imagine Stannis being so agreeable if he'd ever met with Robb? He was galled by Robb's status as KitN and other kingdoms wanting greater autonomy too would have driven him crazy.

I was also very impressed that she just accepted Tyrion's explanation of Jaime's kingslaying as the truth. She knew from Barry that dad was nutty and loved fire even more than she did, but this was still a huge bombshell. 

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, Lady S. said:

I think Dany has just been proven herself "gentler than Stannis" to use Varys's phrase by agreeing to give Yara autonomy in the Iron Islands so long as they work together. Tyrion points out that the other kingdoms may demand their independence as well, and Dany says Yara is only asking and the others are free to ask as well. Can you imagine Stannis being so agreeable if he'd ever met with Robb? He was galled by Robb's status as KitN and other kingdoms wanting greater autonomy too would have driven him crazy.

How much autonomy will the Iron Islanders have if they can't engage in their traditional pursuits of rapine, plunder and murder?  It's not as if Daenerys even said don't do it in the 7K; she said don't do it, period.  That basically means their right back where they were before Balon declared independence for the second time, and independence as fictional as the North's would have been had Renly lived and Robb approved the agreement made between Cat and Renly.

I also noticed that Tyrion upgraded Daenerys from Her Grace to Her Majesty when talking to the survivor of Three Stooges of Slavers Bay.  Perhaps, in addition to being Grand Poobah of Loyal Order of Water Buffaloes, Lodge No. 26, she'll also proclaim herself Empress of Westeros.  In that case, a little title inflation is in order for her vassals.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Constantinople

[BigBeagle]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

You have to take anything Daario says about Daenerys with a huge grain of salt. He is in love with her. As Tyrion pointed out to Daario and Jorah, once she takes the Iron Throne their roles in her life will change by necessity. She will likely enter into a political marriage to cement her rule. We saw that she did just that with Hizdahr and how jealous Daario was. Daario isn't anxious for Daenerys to head to Westeros.

Surely, you're not saying a guy would lie to a woman just to curry romantic favor? Un-possible!

In all seriousness, that's a really good point, SimoneS.  I hadn't considered that Daario was still smitten.

[SimoneS]

30 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

How much autonomy will the Iron Islanders have if they can't engage in their traditional pursuits of rapine, plunder and murder?  It's not as if Daenerys even said don't do it in the 7K; she said don't do it, period.  That basically means their right back where they were before Balon declared independence for the second time, and independence as fictional as the North's would have been had Renly lived and Robb approved the agreement made between Cat and Renly.

Well, nothing is for free in the Great Game. There is a price for everything. The Ironborn will have to decide if they want to pay it. I cannot imagine life under the rule of Insane Euron is particularly happy. Daenerys will destroy Euron to put Yara on the throne. The Ironborn can always revolt and be crushed or they can use the autonomy they do have to find a way of life that does not involve raping, raiding and murdering. They might discover that they prosper as a result.

Edited June 21, 2016 by SimoneS

[Funzlerks]

Dany reminds me of the phrase - If you always carry a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.  She really had a quick change of heart about listening to Tyrion's advice and on listening to and accepting what really happened with her father.  It seemed about as easy a turnaround as how she can steamroll any opposition with her dragons that she doesn't even take care of.  I am left wondering why she suddenly is so different than before.

[SimoneS]

2 hours ago, Funzlerks said:

Dany reminds me of the phrase - If you always carry a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.  She really had a quick change of heart about listening to Tyrion's advice and on listening to and accepting what really happened with her father.  It seemed about as easy a turnaround as how she can steamroll any opposition with her dragons that she doesn't even take care of.  I am left wondering why she suddenly is so different than before.

I don't see Daenerys as suddenly different. She usually listened to Jorah's advice, then Ser Barristan came along. Barristan was the first person to tell her the truth about her father. Knowing the truth made Daenerys decide to exercise restraint and the Son of Harpy a fair trial instead of executing him out of hand. Daario advised her to kill all the heads of the great houses to squash the opposition, but she said that she was a queen not a butcher. The areas that Daenerys has always refused comprise on is stopping the rapes and murders and freeing the slaves. She has killed people, but none of them were innocent that I can recall. The people who want to do these things without consequence have been her enemies.

Edited June 22, 2016 by SimoneS

[Oscirus]

I think Dany has matured. She's starting to realize that she can't continue to rule by fear. Also I tend to think she generally likes being around Tyrion since he's not trying to bang her and he doesn't treat her like a porcelain goddess. So she'd be more willing to listen to him. Hell, look how relaxed she was in that ironborn meeting.

[paigow]

It's impossible for anyone to NOT be "gentler than Stannis"

Stannis: [to Mance] Bend your knee or die.

Stannis: [to Renly] Strike your banners and join me or die.

Dany could demand anything from Yara and appear reasonable compared to Stannis 

[RedheadZombie]

Can anyone remind me - who died first, Rhaegar or the mad King?  It seems no one is clear on who would be the "true" King/Queen between Jon and Dany.  Besides the obvious necessity of Rhaegar and Lyanna having married, it would also require the mad King to have died first for Jon to be the heir.  Otherwise, when Rhaegar died the heir became Viserys, and when he died the true heir would be Dany since he died without children.  I know this was rehashed in the recent past, but it never seemed to reach a consensus opinion. 

On June 21, 2016 at 10:41 AM, SimoneS said:

Some people will always judge women by different standards to men. Daenerys went from being controlled by the brother and husband to being an independent determined ruthless queen so of course, she is going "mad," etc. RME. Meanwhile, I don't remember much talk about Stannis being mad when he was stomping around determined to be king, having sex with Mellisandre to create a magical baby that he sent to murder his brother along with his willingness to sacrifice Gendry and his sacrifice of Shireen. 

Yes, Daenerys can be ruthless and determined, but she is also compassionate and she stands up for the weak and exploited. Even after making a decision, Daenerys will listen to advice of her councilors. She can be persuaded to take a different course of action to attain a better result. It is the sign of a wise ruler that she has chosen to surround herself with councilors with diverse backgrounds and experiences. Of all the potential rulers of Westeros in the Game, Daenerys is the best and the common people, especially will prosper under her rule.

I agree with you.  I just don't see Dany as a dictator killing without mercy, and demanding adoration and obeisance.  She doesn't surround herself with yes-men.  She wants true opinions and she respects them and often follows that person's ideas.  I think she's touched by the bowing adoration she receives from the slaves she's freed, and I think she has earned that reaction. But she didn't treat Theon and Yara that way.  First she indulgently allowed Tyrion to endlessly bitch about Theon, and even looked on fondly as he wasted her time.  But we also saw Theon and Yara very much not bowing to her, or even kneeling or bowing their heads.  They were simply respectful, and she reacted very positively to their approach.  i think Dany wants to be treated like the Queen, and whatever that usually requires.  But I think that's only to be earned not expected by her.  She's always given arrogant men enough rope to hang themselves, while she sat by calmly observing and smiling. 

[glowbug]

18 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

Can anyone remind me - who died first, Rhaegar or the mad King?  It seems no one is clear on who would be the "true" King/Queen between Jon and Dany.  Besides the obvious necessity of Rhaegar and Lyanna having married, it would also require the mad King to have died first for Jon to be the heir.  Otherwise, when Rhaegar died the heir became Viserys, and when he died the true heir would be Dany since he died without children.  I know this was rehashed in the recent past, but it never seemed to reach a consensus opinion. 

Rhaegar died first but it doesn't matter. Jon, if legitimate, would still have been the rightful heir over Viserys and Dany. This was discussed at length in one of the early episode threads and I thought it was pretty much resolved. The eldest son's children are ahead of a king's younger children in the line of succession even if their father (the eldest son) predeceases his father. There are plenty of examples from English history to back this up. It's also implied by the current line of succession of the British monarchy. What weakens Jon's claim even if his parents were married is that the marriage itself would be of questionable legitimacy since Rhaegar's first wife was very much alive, and that Aerys, after Rhaegar's death, declared Viserys as his heir. The problem for Dany is that the declaration was made without the knowledge of Jon's existence and it's unclear whether Aerys had the authority to disinherite Jon even if he had known of his existence. There's also the question of Aerys' mental health and whether he was fit to make any decisions at that time. Basically, if Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, both Jon and Dany have strong claims to the throne and neither is the clear cut winner. If Rhaegar didn't marry Lyanna then Dany is the rightful heir as the only legitimate Targaryen (assuming Aegon is fake). 

[SimoneS]

Once she takes the Iron Throne, Daenerys will need an heir. I am just saying.

[Spartan Girl]

4 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Once she takes the Iron Throne, Daenerys will need an heir. I am just saying.

In which case, either she'll make Jon her heir since he's her half-nephew, or since incest is no big deal among the Targaryens....

I can't believe some people actually want this to happen. Granted, if they haven't read the books they in the dark about R+L=J, but still...

[Funzlerks]

He is her whole nephew if R + L = J is true as Rhaegar is her full brother.  It would just be such a weird ending.  Maybe she could marry Bran if she's around.  Or maybe just end the show with everyone still single.  It wouldn't bother me.

[Constantinople]

10 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

Can anyone remind me - who died first, Rhaegar or the mad King?  It seems no one is clear on who would be the "true" King/Queen between Jon and Dany.  Besides the obvious necessity of Rhaegar and Lyanna having married, it would also require the mad King to have died first for Jon to be the heir.  Otherwise, when Rhaegar died the heir became Viserys, and when he died the true heir would be Dany since he died without children.  I know this was rehashed in the recent past, but it never seemed to reach a consensus opinion.

Dany has an air force (3 dragons), a navy, a cavalry (the Dorthraki) and two infantry armies (the Unsullied and the Second Sons).

Jon has some worn out Wildlings

Dany is the "true" Queen.

[Oscirus]

Since bigamy hasn't been used in forever and Jon doesn't even want to be king, the throne is Danys as long as she wants it.

[sjohnson]

In Essos Daenerys is a superhero who liberates slaves. That's a war of liberation. No war never discriminates between the worthy and the unworthy. But not everyone is a pacifist,. Daenerys' wars have been just. I'm not sure how relevant or thematically compelling it is to fantasize about a superhero liberating slaves, inasmuch as superheroes don't exist. (I also found the crazed plots about slaves not being able to accept freedom very distasteful.) 

On the other hand, Daenerys invading Westeros because she has a legal claim to the throne? Coming to Westeros with a murderer as her Hand, with the murderous and treacherous Sand Snakes in her train and a barbarian horde that delights in pillage and rapine may be legally justifiable. But I have firmly come to believe that the ends justify the means. The sovereignty of the throne is a means to peace. Daenerys' legal claim does not justify the invasion so far as I am concerned. 

If, and only if, Daenerys were to adopt Jon's crusade against the White Walkers, her claim to the Iron Throne could be justified by the exigencies of survival in a war that really did pose a threat of annihilation. (This is rarely the case in real life.)

On a personal level, being a superhero is no doubt kind of deranging, as is being raised as a monarchist. She's really rather a successful human being in spite of all that. Nonetheless, even were the world so wonderful as to produce a genuinely benevolent despot in the person of Daenerays Targaryen, she's going to die. And the despotism won't.