S01.E04: Secrets Stolen

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Dr. John Stevenson has met his match in a stunning, and equally cunning, doctor named Brooke, while H.G. and Jane travel back to the 1980s where they make a shocking discovery that could change Vanessa's life.

 

[SailorGirl]

I'm on the fence about this show but as long as we get a weekly shot of Jack the Ripper in a low-wrapped towel, I'll stick around. I didn't realize until reading here that he was the guy from Revenge -- SO MUCH better in this show! (low-wrapped towel FTW!)

And as someone who graduated H.S. in 1985, fuck you show! "I'm a historian -- I know the 80s." Like it was centuries ago or something? Seriously?? :-D

Edited March 20, 2017 by SailorGirl

[KaveDweller]

54 minutes ago, SailorGirl said:

I'm on the fence about this show but as long as we get a weekly shot of Jack the Ripper in a low-wrapped towel, I'll stick around. I didn't realize until reading here that he was the guy from Revenge -- SO MUCH better in this show! (low-wrapped towel FTW!)

And as someone who graduated H.S. in 1985, fuck you show! "I'm a historian -- I know the 80s." Like it was centuries ago or something? Seriously?? :-D

And she didn't know the 80s. She told him MTV was big, but MTV didn't launch until 1981. If Wells had mentioned it no one would have known what he meant. 

I also didn't get why Jane asked Wells if the year 1918 meant anything to him. How the hell could it mean something to him, when Wells came from 1893? It seems weird that John would be going there though. Presumably he wants to meet his son, but why go to the year the son died? No one ever uses time machines logically.

[Bort]

Jane was pretty much operating on '80s stereotypes. It didn't go full blown big hair and spandex until mid-decade.

Well, Griffin and Brooke are siblings. At least it makes their knowledge of Wells and the Ripper less random, especially if they're connected to this utopia mystery. Ripper is right about her, though, Brooke is nuts. She scares me almost as much as he does.

[Maverick]

 Yeah, just about everything Jane said was wrong.  Reagan wasn't president (or even president-elect), MTV hasn't been invented, no one had heard of Madonna, yuppies from Wall Street were years away and spandex said 'hooker' not 'trendy'.   I don't know if they were deliberately writing Jane as ill-informed about 1980 or the writing's just that bad.

[TobinAlbers]

Well at least with the introduction of his son, John has another story to keep him occupied. Kinda ironic that he has an obsessed stalker hunting him with Brooke. Although Brooke you can't throw shade at Griffin for losing John when you couldn't keep in under lock and key yourself.

And being a Timeless watcher it is funny how both shows gave female leads the role of historian and big clunky time machines that blow paper around as they pop in and out. 

Vanessa's daddy did some bad, shady things. 

Would've been great if Griffin had been a descendant of John who purposefully targeted Vanessa as she's a descendant of Welles but since Rebecca is his sister and she slept with John that's out. Still wouldn't be surprised if the show gave us a Romeo/Juliet style descendants of Welles-Stevenson coupling in the future.

I don't hate this show. It has its flaws but the leads are charming. But seriously, ABC, you had a damn good fish out of time show with Forever. Welles and Ripper are fun to watch but Ioan Grufudd was better. Bowman actually would've been a good fit on Forever as one of Henry's children or a villain. 

Edited March 20, 2017 by TobinAlbers
Rebecca corrected to Brooke

[Dowel Jones]

3 hours ago, TobinAlbers said:

And being a Timeless watcher it is funny how both shows gave female leads the role of historian

I halfway expected Wells, as they entered the time machine, to blurt out something like "Don't we need a third person in case we run into trouble?"

I missed something.  How did Stevenson get the key to the machine?

Production blunder:  Stevenson stabs two people with his knife, yet it was shown on the floor as perfectly clean. 

So Stevenson, and presumably our intrepid duo, are off to Paris 1918.  At least the showrunners took a different road with the boomerang time machine.  Looked like it had a nice Victorian lounge chair inside, too. 

Do I have this straight?  Vanessa's father murdered Chad's father and stole the Project Utopia paperwork, presumably making the family wealthy.  Chad, however, wanted to kill Jane, and maybe HG as collateral.  Why?  From whom was the paperwork stolen?  Stevenson/JTR seems peripheral to this entire plotline, almost as a catalyst rather than the main attraction. 

[blackwing]

5 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

Do I have this straight?  Vanessa's father murdered Chad's father and stole the Project Utopia paperwork, presumably making the family wealthy.  Chad, however, wanted to kill Jane, and maybe HG as collateral.  Why?  From whom was the paperwork stolen?  Stevenson/JTR seems peripheral to this entire plotline, almost as a catalyst rather than the main attraction. 

I think Chad's only goal was to get access to the time machine so he could go back in time and prevent the murder of his father.  But if we are to believe Brooke and Griffin, Chad's father stole the secrets from their father.  So he wasn't entirely innocent either.

I had been wondering if Vanessa was supposed to be mixed race as the actress looked like she could be (although my theory was that it was because she was descended from HG and the vaguely Hispanic looking Jane).  So now we know her parentage.  I wonder which parent is the descendant of HG?

Lots of towel/sheet continuity error.  Last episode, Brooke had apparently stripped John and covered him up from knee to nips with a big sheet. This episode, it starts with just a sheet or towel covering his midsection.  It hangs loose.  But when he falls off the table, the towel is clearly tucked neatly around his back.   Guess he thought to secure it as he was falling in his drug-addled state.   Hah.  This detail was something that was glaringly obvious.  

I think Jane was clearly talking about the 80s in general since as mentioned above, none of those things had happened by 1980.  The fashion trends of the one shoulder off big top wasn't popularised until Flashdance (1982 I think) and Madonna.  Madonna wasn't really known until 82 also I think and her other fashion trendsetters (leggings, bangle bracelets, big bows in hair) came along with her.  I think.   Would have loved to have seen HG talk about Madonna and have someone assume he was talking about the Virgin Mary.

[SWLinPHX]

11 hours ago, kariyaki said:

Jane was pretty much operating on '80s stereotypes. It didn't go full blown big hair and spandex until mid-decade.

Well 1980 was still transitioning out of the styles and music of the 1970's.  Diana Ross's disco-ish "Upside Down" (featured at the garden party) was a hit that summer.  But by 1982 New Wave was well on its way, with the intense popularity of Duran Duran, MTV and Olivia Newton-John's "Physical".

10 hours ago, TobinAlbers said:

Well at least with the introduction of his son, John has another story to keep him occupied. Kinda ironic that he has an obsessed stalker hunting him with Rebecca. Although Becca you can't throw shade at Griffin for losing John when you couldn't keep in under lock and key yourself.

I was trying to think who "Becca" was but now I'm pretty sure you meant "Brooke".

[Maverick]

 Pretty much everything that defined the 80s was in someway an outgrowth of MTV's influence.   It's really not the 80s until MTV launches.   Speaking of MTV in the 80s, I just realized that all the titles are lyrics from the song Time After Time.

[SWLinPHX]

49 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I had been wondering if Vanessa was supposed to be mixed race as the actress looked like she could be (although my theory was that it was because she was descended from HG and the vaguely Hispanic looking Jane).  So now we know her parentage.  I wonder which parent is the descendant of HG?

Well I think it's safe to presume her (white) father was.  However, the look of the beautiful, light-eyed mixed-race "Vanessa" reminds me of another beautiful mixed-race Vanessa -- Vanessa Williams.  Coincidence?

2 minutes ago, Maverick said:

I just realized that all the titles are lyrics from the song Time After Time.

Yes, apparently the show's creator is a Cyndi Lauper fan.

[SWLinPHX]

57 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Lots of towel/sheet continuity error.  Last episode, Brooke had apparently stripped John and covered him up from knee to nips with a big sheet. This episode, it starts with just a sheet or towel covering his midsection.  It hangs loose.  But when he falls off the table, the towel is clearly tucked neatly around his back.   Guess he thought to secure it as he was falling in his drug-addled state.   Hah.  This detail was something that was glaringly obvious.

Yes, I was often surprised at the continuity oversights in TV series, which are more common than in big budget feature films where there is more time and budget.  In one of the episodes of "Melrose Place" (early 1990's original series) I was a patient in a run-down hospital next to Tom Calabro's character Michael.  They had me bring a mix of clothes as some scenes would be shot as if taken place on separate days (was a very long day, shooting from early morning to late at night).  I had two long flannel night shirts (red plaid and a grayish plaid) and after I had switched to the gray from the red for the next scenes they decided to do some pick-up shots from the previous scene.  If you watch it, each time they cut to me I'm in a different colored night shirt, LOL. 

Edited March 20, 2017 by SWLinPHX

[Bort]

15 minutes ago, Maverick said:

 I just realized that all the titles are lyrics from the song Time After Time.

Ooh, nice catch! That'll be a fun thing to look out for in upcoming episodes.

[TobinAlbers]

7 minutes ago, SWLinPHX said:

Well I think it's safe to presume her (white) father was.

Not necessarily. Mixed races can be a variety of complexions so her mom could be a Welles descendant as well.

15 minutes ago, SWLinPHX said:

I was trying to think who "Becca" was but now I'm pretty sure you meant "Brooke".

Thanks. Corrected it in my original post.

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

But if we are to believe Brooke and Griffin, Chad's father stole the secrets from their father.

So we have another big bad Dad to be revealed. Wonder if they'll get a name actor for it.

Kinda wish that Welles would try to get to know Vanessa a bit better since she is (distant) family. He has no problem forming attachments to Jane but Vanessa he should be a bit gobsmacked over since he had given up the bachelor life back in his time and wasn't looking for love. I'd think he'd be a bit interested in learning who he knocked up to have a line of progeny into 2017. That actually should be the drama he and Jane are facing - if they pursue their relationship does that jeopardize Vanessa's existence.

[greekmom]

What really bothers me again is the fact that for someone from the 19th century (?) no one from the 21st century is able to best John/Jack .  So show is telling me that bodyguards who have had some military training (one would assume) cannot subdue a psycho doctor from a few centuries ago. So show is telling me that with the new tech toys (i.e. tasers, tags, whatever) no one can catch or subdue a psycho doctor from a few centuries ago.  

This has to be my biggest pet peeve of the show right now.  I can suspend belief on alot of issues on the show but this and the fact that John/Jack can function so easy in the modern world. 

[Arnella]

1 hour ago, SWLinPHX said:

1 hour ago, Maverick said:

just realized that all the titles are lyrics from the song Time After Time.

Yes, apparently the show's creator is a Cyndi Lauper fan.

Cyndi Lauper says that she was looking for song ideas one day and looked in a TV Guide.  The 1979 movie was playing that week and lifted the title for her song. Time is cyclic after all!

[Free]

3 hours ago, kariyaki said:

Ooh, nice catch! That'll be a fun thing to look out for in upcoming episodes.

That's an interesting connection.

[Dowel Jones]

4 hours ago, blackwing said:

vaguely Hispanic looking Jane

Genesis Rodriguez (Jane) has a Cuban mother and a Venezuelan father, according to the tv bio.  I wonder if they'll try to write her heritage into the story.

3 hours ago, SWLinPHX said:

Well 1980 was still transitioning out of the styles and music of the 1970's.

When "Brad and Angelina" first approached the party and the soundtrack was going, my first thought was "They're going to prevent disco music.  Go team!"

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

no one from the 21st century is able to best John/Jack

It looked for a moment or two that Senate candidate had some actual martial arts skills and was mopping the floor with Jack, but of course that won't do, plotwise.

[fourPLUSseven]

I am out. The story is so convoluted, and even though the actors are very good, I just can't keep up with all of the side stories and plotholes, nevermind the errors in history. Also, networks don't give shows a fair chance. Doubt this will get a Season 2 go ahead. 

[BooBear]

3 hours ago, greekmom said:

What really bothers me again is the fact that for someone from the 19th century (?) no one from the 21st century is able to best John/Jack .  So show is telling me that bodyguards who have had some military training (one would assume) cannot subdue a psycho doctor from a few centuries ago. So show is telling me that with the new tech toys (i.e. tasers, tags, whatever) no one can catch or subdue a psycho doctor from a few centuries ago. 

I was suprised that he wouldn't want her to take his killing tendency away from him so that he could explore this new world 

[Bort]

By the way, Griffin, did you know that your sister's plan to capture the Ripper involved boning him first? If so, what a peach of a brother you are!

[blackwing]

5 hours ago, greekmom said:

What really bothers me again is the fact that for someone from the 19th century (?) no one from the 21st century is able to best John/Jack .  So show is telling me that bodyguards who have had some military training (one would assume) cannot subdue a psycho doctor from a few centuries ago. So show is telling me that with the new tech toys (i.e. tasers, tags, whatever) no one can catch or subdue a psycho doctor from a few centuries ago.  

This has to be my biggest pet peeve of the show right now.  I can suspend belief on alot of issues on the show but this and the fact that John/Jack can function so easy in the modern world. 

Agreed.  John is from 1893 London.  At best, his fighting technique would have consisted of fairly unsophisticated boxing and punching.  In today's world, I find it hard to believe that not one of those security guards trained in any of the martial arts (Krav Maga, tae kwon do, karate, kung fu, MMA, anything else) wouldn't have been able to take him out.  John should be completely dumbfounded by these fighting techniques that he has never seen before.  It's ridiculous that he's even on an equal footing as the ones he has beaten.  Plus, I get why the show cast this actor, but his body looks 2017 fit.  I don't think someone from 1893 would be as strong or as fit as someone from today.  Especially not a professional doctor who wouldn't have worried about what his body looks like.  I wouldn't think anybody cared in those days, I would find it hard to believe if a doctor was up every day at 5:30 getting that weight training and cardio in before heading to work.

[greekmom]

One thing I forgot to mention and no one mentioned is who is the crazy dude with the tats that was in Brooke's basement?

[jhlipton]

20 hours ago, Maverick said:

I don't know if they were deliberately writing Jane as ill-informed about 1980 or the writing's just that bad.

All signs point to the latter.

6 hours ago, greekmom said:

What really bothers me again is the fact that for someone from the 19th century (?) no one from the 21st century is able to best John/Jack .  This has to be my biggest pet peeve of the show right now.  I can suspend belief on alot of issues on the show but this and the fact that John/Jack can function so easy in the modern world. 

THIS.  He knows how knock-out darts work by seeing them ONCE. He knows what spy-cams are just by looking at them.  He bests a trained security guard (who of course rushes him instead just shooting his ass).

4 hours ago, fourPLUSseven said:

I am out. . Also, networks don't give shows a fair chance. Doubt this will get a Season 2 go ahead. 

I'm out too. The dialog is stupid, the people are stupid, leaving stuff where anybody can grab it, not having John tied down until he's absolutely needed.  Blech.

[MisterGlass]

On 3/19/2017 at 10:14 PM, KaveDweller said:

I also didn't get why Jane asked Wells if the year 1918 meant anything to him. How the hell could it mean something to him, when Wells came from 1893? It seems weird that John would be going there though. Presumably he wants to meet his son, but why go to the year the son died?

I was confused because that really seemed odd for 1918 Paris - i.e. war's end - with people standing around in morning dress.

13 hours ago, blackwing said:

I think Jane was clearly talking about the 80s in general since as mentioned above, none of those things had happened by 1980

I wondered if she was going off the part of the 80s that she remembers.

[NorthstarATL]

Really, Wells? No reaction to the term "ASAP"? BTW, I lived through the eighties. There were not enough drugs at that party. Josh Bowman obviously works out. The team needs to stake out a gym.

[Bort]

15 minutes ago, NorthstarATL said:

BTW, I lived through the eighties. There were not enough drugs at that party.

Maybe people were being extra discreet to keep Bethany from gossiping about them.

[SWLinPHX]

On 3/20/2017 at 7:35 AM, TobinAlbers said:

So we have another big bad Dad to be revealed. Wonder if they'll get a name actor for it.

Kinda wish that Welles would try to get to know Vanessa a bit better since she is (distant) family.  I'd think he'd be a bit interested in learning who he knocked up to have a line of progeny into 2017.

There is no reason to think Brook & Griffin's dad is "bad".  He is the one who had his plans stolen from him after all.

Also, is she a direct descendent or is he just her ancestor?  She could be related to his sibling or nephew, etc.

[iMonrey]

Quote

I am out. The story is so convoluted, and even though the actors are very good, I just can't keep up with all of the side stories and plotholes, nevermind the errors in history. Also, networks don't give shows a fair chance. Doubt this will get a Season 2 go ahead. 

I'm sticking with it for the very reason you're dropping it: I strongly suspect it will be just 13 episodes and done (if that). Ratings are horrible. But I'm getting a kick out of it while it lasts. I cracked up a Wells clicking on the "Find out what women really want" ad and getting all the disturbing pop-ups. Also laughed when the landlady told him her father came to the US after the second world war and he said "There were two of them?" Granted, his surprised reaction to modern times can carry this show only so far, but all signs point to it not needing to for long.

Quote

There is no reason to think Brook & Griffin's dad is "bad".  He is the one who had his plans stolen from him after all.

I'm not clear on whether Chad's father stole the Utopia info from Brooke and Griffin's father, or if Chad himself is their brother, and the "stealing" they are referring to was done by Vanessa's father. 

Quote

Also, is she a direct descendent or is he just her ancestor?  She could be related to his sibling or nephew, etc.

That's what I'm wondering too. Wells had three older siblings as well as two sons. He also reportedly had several mistresses with whom he might have had illegitimate children. 

[Bort]

53 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I'm not clear on whether Chad's father stole the Utopia info from Brooke and Griffin's father, or if Chad himself is their brother, and the "stealing" they are referring to was done by Vanessa's father. 

The modern day blurb they read about Chad's father's death said that he was survived by a wife and 6-month old son, Chad. No mention of other kids. Though, they could be from a previous marriage/he could have abandoned Brooke and Griffin-- there's any number of things that could still allow that possibility. Especially since both Chad and Brooke have red hair -- though that could merely be a coincidence of casting and not on purpose.

[blackwing]

6 hours ago, SWLinPHX said:

Also, is she a direct descendent or is he just her ancestor?  She could be related to his sibling or nephew, etc.

Vanessa told HG that she was his great great granddaughter.  Assuming she is correct, that means she is a direct descendant of him.  If she was related to his sibling, then she'd be a great great grandniece.

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I'm not clear on whether Chad's father stole the Utopia info from Brooke and Griffin's father, or if Chad himself is their brother, and the "stealing" they are referring to was done by Vanessa's father. 

My interpretation was that Chad's father stole the information from Brooke and Griffin's father.  Then Vanessa's father in turn killed Chad's father and stole the info.  Thus, Brooke and Griffin would appear to believe that Vanessa's fortune was founded based on information ultimately originating with their father.

[Kimmel77]

I didn't like the pilot, but the following episodes have really expanded the story by adding depth to it. Especially the additional characters who all know & anticipated Jack the Ripper's arrival in modern times.

Not too keen on H.G Wells and Jane coupling up so quickly. Not that I'd rather a long-winded 'Will they/won't they' scenario, just something different would've been preferred.

With the way they are portraying John, the writers are unintentionally making him into an enhanced human with ridiculous skills of perception, adaptability and intelligence. He suffers no drawbacks from being out of time as a man from 1893. They seem to think a scientist of any discipline is well-equipped to deal with time-travel. Odd.

On ‎20‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 2:14 AM, KaveDweller said:

 Presumably he wants to meet his son, but why go to the year the son died? No one ever uses time machines logically.

Save your son from death and earn his trust immediately.

[Kimmel77]

On ‎20‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 8:43 PM, kariyaki said:

By the way, Griffin, did you know that your sister's plan to capture the Ripper involved boning him first? If so, what a peach of a brother you are!

Well, she'd be a fool to pass on a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity . Plus no-one would ever believe the truth. Win-Win!

[TheRabbi]

I find myself almost regrettably enjoying this. I know there's plot holes a-plenty, extremely cumbersome dialogue (how convenient for mom to say 'Vanessa Anders get over here!' when they arrived), and the Ripper being way too smart with today's technology, but damn if they haven't drawn me in with likeable leads, a compelling enough mystery, and decent suspense. The guy who did this last did The Following, which was also good for one season before going totally off the rails, and with this show's ratings tanking so bad, only one season is a certainty, so hopefully it stays good for a season as well.

[SWLinPHX]

3 hours ago, Kimmel77 said:

Quote

Presumably he wants to meet his son, but why go to the year the son died? No one ever uses time machines logically.

Quote

Save your son from death and earn his trust immediately

But did they say his son died from a tragic accident?  He could have had a terminal illness in which case the year he died would have been too late.

[iMonrey]

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Vanessa told HG that she was his great great granddaughter. 

Did she? I thought she said she did a DNA test which showed they were related, but she didn't know how.

Quote

With the way they are portraying John, the writers are unintentionally making him into an enhanced human with ridiculous skills of perception, adaptability and intelligence. 

This doesn't really bother me. Clearly, John is supposed to be a genius. Just because someone is from 1893 doesn't mean they must be dumb. Most of his adaptability has taken place offscreen so it's not really an issue for me. It's not as if we've seen him just pick up a phone or a remote control for the first time ever and know how to use them - he's been figuring these things out in the background. They did show him trying to figure out how to microwave a burrito and he figured that out pretty easily and quickly. 

Granted, I would like to see more of that because it's amusing, but they're mostly using H.G. for those kinds of scenes. It makes sense narratively because if they keep showing John looking baffled by modern technology he won't seem as smart, dangerous or evil. It's not as much of a problem for H.G. to look goofy.

[Kimmel77]

3 hours ago, SWLinPHX said:

 

Very true. I think it was deliberately not stated what he died of, or not clearly shown on the death certificate. But it would be cool to have a mini-Ripper on the loose.

[KaveDweller]

11 hours ago, Kimmel77 said:

I didn't like the pilot, but the following episodes have really expanded the story by adding depth to it. Especially the additional characters who all know & anticipated Jack the Ripper's arrival in modern times.

Not too keen on H.G Wells and Jane coupling up so quickly. Not that I'd rather a long-winded 'Will they/won't they' scenario, just something different would've been preferred.

With the way they are portraying John, the writers are unintentionally making him into an enhanced human with ridiculous skills of perception, adaptability and intelligence. He suffers no drawbacks from being out of time as a man from 1893. They seem to think a scientist of any discipline is well-equipped to deal with time-travel. Odd.

Save your son from death and earn his trust immediately.

I'm not convinced they have the ability to change the past as they do in other time travel stories.  Vanessa remembering meeting Wells when she was younger suggests they can't. If Vanessa already remembers something Wells hasn't done yet, then anything John hasn't done yet would have already happened too. So if he is going to save his son in 1918, the son couldn't have died in 1918.

[jhlipton]

Wells, at this point, shouldn't know about any World War, as the first one hadn't started when he popped forward.

On 3/21/2017 at 1:21 PM, iMonrey said:

He also reportedly had several mistresses with whom he might have had illegitimate children. 

He definitely had several mistresses (including Margeret Sanger) with his wife's consent.  He had 2 sons with his wife, and a son and daughter with Rebecca West and Amber Reeves, respectively.  It's interesting how many of his paramours were the leading feminists of their day.

3 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

I'm not convinced they have the ability to change the past as they do in other time travel stories. 

They already have, in a micro sense at least.  Bethany would have been doing something instead of chatting with Herb and Jane, and Vanessa's dad wouldn't have been chasing after them (maybe cleaning up the crime scene).  As soon as they come out of the the machine, they become a Heisenburg viewer and thus impact the past.
Moreover, John has impacted 2018's past significantly.  Who knows what the people he killed, or their progeny might have accomplished, for good or ill.

The "Butterfly Effect" is trivial (and the guy who popularized the phrase about the flap of a butterfy's wing has said that it's vastly overstated).  The "we can't change the past" is a much bigger problem, because as soon as you go into the past, you change it.

[Bort]

1 hour ago, jhlipton said:

Wells, at this point, shouldn't know about any World War, as the first one hadn't started when he popped forward.

I don't think he did, the land lady saying WWII was enough of a clue for him to conclude there were two. 

[jhlipton]

Just now, kariyaki said:

I don't think he did, the land lady saying WWII was enough of a clue for him to conclude there were two. 

I think the phrase would bother him -- the whole world at war?  twice???  Moreover, he should have been horrified.  But that's just me. 

[KaveDweller]

21 hours ago, jhlipton said:

They already have, in a micro sense at least.  Bethany would have been doing something instead of chatting with Herb and Jane, and Vanessa's dad wouldn't have been chasing after them (maybe cleaning up the crime scene).  As soon as they come out of the the machine, they become a Heisenburg viewer and thus impact the past.
Moreover, John has impacted 2018's past significantly.  Who knows what the people he killed, or their progeny might have accomplished, for good or ill.

 

How do we know Bethany would have been doing something else? We never saw that party from a different "original" POV showing something else happen. 

The "Butterfly Effect" is trivial (and the guy who popularized the phrase about the flap of a butterfy's wing has said that it's vastly overstated).  The "we can't change the past" is a

much bigger problem, because as soon as you go into the past, you change it.

Not if you always went into the past. Suppose at that party in 1980 HG and Jane were always there and interacted with Vanessa's family and party guests. There was never a time the party occurred without them being there. They didn't do that until after they experienced 2017, but they still did it back in 1980 before everyone else experienced 2017. It kind of follows the time travel rules they used in The Time Traveler's Wife or Lost.

The show hasn't fully established these rules yet, but I think what they have told us suggests it's how it works, because Vanessa has already interacted with Wells in his future. Wells and Jane's trip three days into the future in the pilot kind of contradicts that, but both things can't be true, so I am following the logic of the events they've spent most time on.

[jhlipton]

47 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

1) How do we know Bethany would have been doing something else? We never saw that party from a different "original" POV showing something else happen. 

2) Not if you always went into the past. Suppose at that party in 1980 HG and Jane were always there and interacted with Vanessa's family and party guests. There was never a time the party occurred without them being there. They didn't do that until after they experienced 2017, but they still did it back in 1980 before everyone else experienced 2017. It kind of follows the time travel rules they used in The Time Traveler's Wife or Lost.

1) Bethany wouldn't be frozen in time and space -- she would have been doing something.  If she would have been talking to someone else, thne that conversation never happened.  If she would have gotten her own drink, the bartender would be tending to her and not to someone else.  This is at the micro level, but there are consequences.

2) This works better.  But if Wells jumps back one week to prevent the murders, he will always have jumped back one week.  You can't have one without the other (unless you're Legends of Tomorrow, in which case you say "Screw it -- we'll make up some blather about time streams and do what we want!")  Either that or the whole thing is per-determined -- if Wells and Jane were always at the party, then they had to go  -- they had no choice as to when or where.  I'm definitely not watching that story!

[KaveDweller]

1 hour ago, jhlipton said:

1) Bethany wouldn't be frozen in time and space -- she would have been doing something.  If she would have been talking to someone else, thne that conversation never happened.  If she would have gotten her own drink, the bartender would be tending to her and not to someone else.  This is at the micro level, but there are consequences.

2) This works better.  But if Wells jumps back one week to prevent the murders, he will always have jumped back one week.  You can't have one without the other (unless you're Legends of Tomorrow, in which case you say "Screw it -- we'll make up some blather about time streams and do what we want!")  Either that or the whole thing is per-determined -- if Wells and Jane were always at the party, then they had to go  -- they had no choice as to when or where.  I'm definitely not watching that story!

1) Bethany wouldn't be frozen in time and space, no. My point was just that since we didn't see another version of the party, we don't know if she talked to someone else and Wells/Jane changed that, or if she always talked to them. I think the idea of time travelers always doing something and unknowingly creating their own fate is kind of interesting.

2) You are right you can't have both if you are a show with good continuity, but it's too early to tell if this show falls into that category. 

[MrSmith]

On 3/19/2017 at 9:38 PM, Maverick said:

 Yeah, just about everything Jane said was wrong.  Reagan wasn't president (or even president-elect), MTV hasn't been invented, no one had heard of Madonna, yuppies from Wall Street were years away and spandex said 'hooker' not 'trendy'.   I don't know if they were deliberately writing Jane as ill-informed about 1980 or the writing's just that bad.

I'm going with "the writing's just that bad". My wife and I couldn't even get through this whole episode. We were about 35 minutes in and I paused it and asked her what she thought. Turned out, we were both bored with the show and tired of all the inconsistencies. So, it's now gone from our DVR. I'll be surprised if this show gets a second season.

[nara]

On 3/19/2017 at 10:59 PM, TobinAlbers said:

Would've been great if Griffin had been a descendant of John who purposefully targeted Vanessa as she's a descendant of Welles but since Rebecca is his sister and she slept with John that's out. Still wouldn't be surprised if the show gave us a Romeo/Juliet style descendants of Welles-Stevenson coupling in the future.

I think Jane might be that descendant of John. Otherwise, at some point HG might decide to go back in time and stop John before he leaves the 19th century.  

But  I don't think Brooke and Griffin being John's descendants precludes her from sleeping with him. The relationship would be very distant. In any case, if you're crazy enough to hang with a notorious psychopath, I imagine a little incest wouldn't bother you.

On 3/20/2017 at 2:23 AM, Dowel Jones said:

I missed something.  How did Stevenson get the key to the machine?

I don't think you need the key to use it. But without the key it immediately returns to where it came from and you're stuck whereit left you.

On 3/20/2017 at 8:25 AM, blackwing said:

I had been wondering if Vanessa was supposed to be mixed race as the actress looked like she could be (although my theory was that it was because she was descended from HG and the vaguely Hispanic looking Jane).  So now we know her parentage.  I wonder which parent is the descendant of HG?

I think Jane was clearly talking about the 80s in general since as mentioned above, none of those things had happened by 1980.  The fashion trends of the one shoulder off big top wasn't popularised until Flashdance (1982 I think) and Madonna.  Madonna wasn't really known until 82 also I think and her other fashion trendsetters (leggings, bangle bracelets, big bows in hair) came along with her.  I think.   Would have loved to have seen HG talk about Madonna and have someone assume he was talking about the Virgin Mary.

I think Vanessa's mother might be HG's descendant, even though (or perhaps because) her father is the obvious choice.

Since the writers got the disco music right, I think Jane's missteps about 1980 culture were deliberately included as comic relief.

I really enjoyed this episode. However, what's the point of America being a gun-loving country if no one thinks to use one against the serial killer? They all try hand to hand combat against the guy with the knife. And why wouldn't Brooke keep him in restraints or at least his cell? And why would anyone allow their back to be turned to the psycho?

[txhorns79]

Quote

Since the writers got the disco music right, I think Jane's missteps about 1980 culture were deliberately included as comic relief.

Do the writers come up with the music cues?  It was funny, if only in that a historian was so off about recent history.  It would be like going to 1960 and telling George about hippies, Woodstock and free love as a way to give him background as to things. 

[Bobcatkitten]

If I think about the 80s in general I would have said almost the same things as her. Clearly she didn't think directly to 1980. But the things she said were accurate for the decade as a whole. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

But the things she said were accurate for the decade as a whole. 

True, but that isn't particularly useful if you are in the beginning of the decade before most of the things you are talking about have even happened. 

[Trini]

So I only caught up on this once I found out it was cancelled; and this would have been the episode where I'd drop the show. But since there's only one more anyway, I'll watch that just to be 'completist'. I guess it's good that they've set up this whole other mystery/conspiracy to expand the premise of the show -- not a bad idea -- but I'm not at all interested. (And it seems a departure from how they've marketed the show?) Gonna miss Barrowman shirtless, though!