S06.E12: Murder Most Foul

[Curio]

So, I guess Emma running Hook through with a sword last year was kind of his karmic payback for this? Every action has an equal and opposite reaction?

[superloislane]

I really enjoyed this episode and I don't think I've ever said that for an Emma-lite episode before.

It was moving, had real human emotions and reactions and finally gave Josh Dallas something to do that wasn't just saying 'I will always find you' a thousand and one times. Dallas proved he's actually a pretty good actor.

Emma comes back from the wish world and immediately goes canoeing with Henry? Is that something she likes to do that we've never heard of before or is it just something Henry wanted to do and Emma went along with it? It doesn't really matter since it was just a way to get rid of them both for an episode.

Snow wakes up from her sleeping curse and instead of going to see her daughter who was just wished away to another universe and almost died by facing her prophesied killer YESTERDAY, she goes to see Regina because she was worried about her?! And then the second time she woke up she must have called Regina up and told her to come over because there's no way she would have known Snow was awake. So Snow called her so Regina could come over for yet another chat and Emma probably doesn't even know her mother was awake. 

And then the 'shocking plot twist' that everyone already predicted...it didn't even make sense! Hook, who should have been in Neverland, randomly came upon a man who was already going to be killed by two other guys and then he had his men get rid of the body and make it look like an accident? Why did he care that Charming's dad could tell the king about him? He's going back to Neverland anyway and doesn't Hook hate royalty so wouldn't he WANT to piss off a king?

It's all plastic angst and as someone else said, they'll have to excuse it at some point within the next ten episodes if they're wrapping stories up which never goes well for these writers so they'll have David randomly get over it after Hook saves his life or something. Which is EXACTLY the thing I hate when they do this with Regina. In fairness, I don't think Emma would be overly upset at this because she never knew him and she knows he killed people in the past which is the same reason I wouldn't expect Emma to be upset about Regina killing her other grandfather. But I can see Emma being upset about David's feelings especially since he's the parent she's far closer to and literally the only parent who even cares about her (see above point!). This would seriously drive apart Emma and David to the point where Emma might have to choose and Hook would feel guilty and while that could be an interesting story, they'll probably not do this since they don't really have time in this half. Unless Hook feels guilty so he takes off at some point and then David sees how sad Emma is and gets over his anger for her?

Not one mention of the Untold Stories plot which I'm guessing is totally over now. Also no mention of the Evil Queen - does Regina know she's a snake now or what?

[Rumsy4]

22 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I can't believe they seemed to acknowledge the hypocrisy of Regina by mentioning the cabinet of hearts, and yet STILL have Regina keep them.  Does that mean they're not that self-aware or what?  Did they expect us to be satisfied with Regina saying "I know I sound like a hypocrite?"

But they were her enemies. Remember Percival? They all totally deserved it.

Quote

Regina's Vault has the worst security ever.  They don't even bother to explain how Robin got in, eh?  You know the twist I was expecting at the end?  For Robin to look into the mirror, and we'd see he was actually Wish Rumple.  

OMG. I was totally hoping for that twist as well! I was soooo disappointed.  

[Curio]

This episode is a goldmine for digging up old posts. From October, in response to Season 6 having no suspense:

Quote

It's okay, there's still the secret about who was involved with Charming's father's death! Hook. And there's still the suspense about whether or not Emma will die! She won't. At least, not for long. Oh, how about what's going to happen to the Evil Queen and the lesson Regina will learn? That's the major question they're hanging the entire 22-episode season on! They will reabsorb into one again. What about Belle and Rumple's relationship drama? It's pretty exciting that Belle is finally standing up for herself! Until she inevitably gets back together with Rumple for the sake of the baby. Who's under the hood?! Does anyone really care at this point if we all know Emma won't die anyways?

 

Looks like I got almost all of them right. Let's wait and see what happens with the Evil Queen and Regina at the end of the season...

[Camera One]

I think Emma said she got her future back in this episode.  Huh?  She does know Gideon isn't dead, right?

[Camera One]

I forgot to mention that great scene where we see Rumple had a heart, in helping David's father to find his missing son.  Even though he's the one who separated them in the first place, ooooh, what a complex character.

They could have substituted Emma instead of Snow in the Regina scenes in this episode and used most of the same lines.  I guess they couldn't since they had Emma encourage Regina to bring Robin last episode.  It almost seems like a switcheroo in their personalities, but also implies the Writers consider their mindsets to be identical and therefore interchangeable.  Which is how they justify never giving them scenes together.  Can you imagine if we had two Emma/Snow scenes of that length in this episode?  The world would probably implode.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

4 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Can you imagine if we had two Emma/Snow scenes of that length in this episode?

Hahahahha. NOPE. 

[InsertWordHere]

I think what's really getting me is that he saved him and then he killed him. Why not just let the guards kill him and kill them while their backs were turned? Or better yet, steal the gold while they were preoccupied with staging the accident. He wouldn't have to kill them at all if he was that uncharacteristically worried about George coming after him. Have something else trigger his memory other than the random hidden drawing. It's still awful and enough to make Hook feel really guilty about it today. But saving him first was just cruel. Rumple levels of cruel. 

9 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I forgot to mention that great scene where we see Rumple had a heart, in helping David's father to find his missing son.  Even though he's the one who separated them in the first place, ooooh, what a complex character.

Or it would be Rumple levels of cruel if Rumple wasn't suddenly giving free deals to a man he had previously been cruel to. I thought Rumple wanted a Prince in place for his future plans? How would it benefit him to reunite James with his family? Wouldn't it be more beneficial to him to make a deal with George to find his son? I don't buy this piece of kindness. 

[kitticup]

Echoing most of the comments.  Last 4 minutes sucked. I am so turned of AE placating a subset of fans to make Regina look better. As far as I am concerned the egg napping and Hook killing Davids dad didn't happen; they are hallucinations of Regina apologists.

in addition to potion scene, I also loved the scene where Charming handcuffed Hook. Emma is her fathers daughter

[Camera One]

5 minutes ago, InsertWordHere said:

I think what's really getting me is that he saved him and then he killed him. Why not just let the guards kill him and kill them while their backs were turned? Or better yet, steal the gold while they were preoccupied with staging the accident.

This was similar to what I was predicting in the fall.  That Hook would have seen the guards killing David's father and could have saved him, but he didn't.  That would have been enough to create the contrived angsty situation without the ridiculous over-the-top cruelty.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Camera One

[Curio]

From EW:

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Robert’s murder serves as a reminder to viewers that Hook hasn’t always been a good guy. “It’s one of those ones where it’s like he could let him go,” O’Donoghue says. “David’s father sees him kill the king’s guards and so he’s like, ‘I can’t let you go because you’ve seen my face,’ and he kills him. It’s a pure villain moment, and much in the way that Regina, who is now redeemed, has actively ripped out people’s hearts and just crushed them in front of villagers. So it’s a similar type of thing where you get to see just how far Hook has come to get to be the man that he is now.”

 

I like how Colin points out how Regina gets away with the exact same kind of thing. But here's the thing...Regina never has to atone for crushing those hearts, nor does she feel guilty about it. Graham, the random guy who got punished in the Underworld, the innocent groomsman...she's never had to do anything to atone for those people. So why the double standard with Hook? How is it that he always feels so much guiltier and ends up having to spend episodes trying to redeem himself? Yet apparently Regina "who is now redeemed" still has hearts in her vault that she hasn't bothered to return? What?

I wish the actors would stop drinking the writers' Kool-Aid and admit that showing worse and worse flashbacks actually doesn't show just how far a character has grown. Oftentimes, it does the exact opposite effect and permanently halts their redemption arc.

Also from that same article:

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what Once Upon a Time encapsulates with all these characters, is that we’re neither all good or all bad

Ehhhhh...straight up killing a man who is tied up is pretty damn bad. There really isn't much room for grey areas here. Didn't Hook still believe in good form even when he was a villain? Shouldn't he have at least untied David's dad first?

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That Hook would have seen the guards killing David's father and could have saved him, but he didn't.

There were so many "grey" places they could have gone, but they went with something straight out of a cartoon.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Curio

[Camera One]

He seems to be saying showing this villainy really shows how far the character has come, just like with Regina, as if that were a model of good writing.  As you said, what type of Kool-Aid are they serving at Craft Services?

10 minutes ago, Curio said:

Ehhhhh...straight up killing a man who is tied up is pretty damn bad. 

Oh LOL.  Forget the movie, this is the real "La La Land".

Edited March 13, 2017 by Camera One

[PixiePaws1]

We all guessed it.....F*** U show...

A few glimmers....Hook did not plot to kill Robert..it was pointless but not personal or maliciously premeditated. He didn't kill him in front of his child...because, I could just see James so traumatised that's why be grew up to be a heartless murderer.

Absolutely hysterical watching the Captain Charming magical chemistry lesson and the turning counter clockwise...

How very convenient of August to find those pages right then.

Have to think that as awful this was...and it was about as awful as it could get...that Killian would rather know, than not.

[KAOS Agent]

I have to say that at least you guys are outraged at the idiocy of this episode. I realized that I don't really care anymore. I'm just over here being all shallow and thinking Hook was looking really hot while carrying out this inexplicable murder.

Some notes:

- I like Not!Robin. I hope he hooks up with the Evil Queen and they have a magically SORAS'd fetus who is taken by the Black Fairy and that's who Gideon is trying to save by killing Emma. Because why not?

- I was really pissed at David for brushing off stealing from Emma as no big deal and making Hook be a part of it. That bothered me more than Hook killing David's dad. This show blows off so many murders and horribleness in the past that I just don't even pretend that the flashbacks mean anything anymore. Actions in the present, however, is a whole different thing and that's how little David cares about Emma's feelings? He can steal from her and make her boyfriend complicit in the activity. Even forcing Hook to lie to her. Nice

- They don't even try with the timelines anymore do they? How old is Pinocchio? So it was like 40 year old Pinocchio who ditched Emma in the orphanage? I hate this show.

- A Zelena sighting. I hope Bex didn't run home from her honeymoon just to film that little scene.

[PixiePaws1]

...Killian kissed Emma so thoroughly she forgot why she was there...:o)))) *smirk*

[ParadoxLost]

4 hours ago, InsertWordHere said:

Or it would be Rumple levels of cruel if Rumple wasn't suddenly giving free deals to a man he had previously been cruel to. I thought Rumple wanted a Prince in place for his future plans? How would it benefit him to reunite James with his family? Wouldn't it be more beneficial to him to make a deal with George to find his son? I don't buy this piece of kindness. 

There is the question of how George figured out how to show up at Pleasure Island.  I assume Rumple made a second deal shortly after sending Charming's father there.

[justmythoughts]

Ok... So I disagree that wishRobin is perfect to the EQ. He is for Regina indeed! The original Robin with her was an odd pairing. This one is more fitting to her twisted moral and life (it seems like he could get used to comfort and is more honest in calling Regina out in her BS: the heart of her enemies? Not so nice for a now "good person")

Loved Killian and Emma's little moment even when he was lying to her to protect David, he was Sweet and sharing a real feeling. But yeah the truth would have been better.

Young Ruth was spot on! Eion is really an eyecandy, but please authors you have already gone too far last episode with the whitewashing of him always been on Emma's side. Let It there, Just friends, please just no love triangle!

David... I truly understand sleep depravation, but what about applying all that anger to press Regina on finally searching for real a solution for the sleeping curse? It was very good to see Josh with good emotional scenes and he Works very well with Colin. 

And no more... That thing you guys were predicting about Hook and David's father... I'll pretend It never happened. I'll apply the Regina rule here: once you have decided you are good and do one or two good deeds all your sins are forgotten and forgiven.

And I'll add a scene in my mind where Snow and Emma had a nice conversation over coffee with cinnamon and It was beautiful.

Edited March 13, 2017 by justmythoughts

[KateJones]

I've had time to think about this episode and while I'm still mad, it was good TV. That said, I don't think the writers have dug themselves into a hole with Hook that they'll never come out of. 

In the end it always comes back to Buffy for me. The end of that episode was similar to the Spike and Buffy moment in the bathroom. Rock bottom for someone who was on a redemption track. We've already seen evidence with Killian and Belle that he feels remorse for things he did. He needs to find peace. This moment is what will propel him forward to finally find that peace, just like Spike did after that horrendous moment.

S7 Buffy forgave Spike for the heinous thing he did before he finally found peace. Charming family and Emma will forgive Hook for the heinous thing he did when he was a different person. There are audience members who never forgave Spike and there will be audience members who won't forgive this. But in the end it's good TV that makes us feel something.

I'm curious to see how we get to the group forgiveness part. Maybe Hook ends up in a cave somewhere in the desert with Jafar and he goes through many trials to finally forgive himself and that's where he meets up with the Agrabahns again. 

And I still don't trust August. He's a little too Gary Sue right now. Golly gee whiz here are the pages I found. There's something sinister about the smile and fake earnestness. Like Walsh before he turned into a monkey.  

Edited March 13, 2017 by KateJones

[Chaos Theory]

I know a lot of people like Hook but I find him boring and honestly the least interesting of Emma's potential love interest.  Yes I even prefer Neal.  She had a history to explore with Neal that was worth exploring.  I liked August.  I thought a relationship with him was kind of clever.  Even Graham.  Hook is just boring and the circlular three steps forward two steps back is tiring.  Of course he was the one who killed David's father.  Maybe if I thought Emma and Hook had more chemistry I'd be more tolerant.  But I found myself actually enjoying Regina and notRobin a lot more.  

[CCTC]

The main thing I don't like about the Hook killing David's father, besides how contrived and predictable it was, is they really don't have the time to truly deal with the aftermath.  With where we are in the season, everything else that needs to be resolved, before the end of the season- they will need to resolve the aftermath of the reveal in one or two episodes.  Even then, that episode or episodes will probably have a ton of other stuff going on and it will get a handful of scenes.

[Vyk]

Me during the episode: Well, save for the Regina/Not!Robin scenes, this is actually a damn good episode!

Me upon seeing the final twist: Ohhhhhhhh, crud.

11 hours ago, Curio said:

I really, really, really hope he didn't know. But that's such a specific death so it seems weird that he wouldn't remember it, especially since he's the kind of guy who keeps rings of his enemies and can list off very oddly specific details about each of their deaths.

I don't think he knew.  He stopped dead in his tracks when he saw his picture.  So I think he remembered the face of the man he killed, but he had no clue that it was David's father.  Don't forget that no one in Storybrooke had any idea of what he looked like other than David, Rumple, Pinocchio, and George.  Hook had heard about his father, but had no idea of what he looked like until he saw that picture.  So yeah, I don't think he knew.  And after he gets over the initial shock, I think David will understand that Hook didn't know.

But yeah.  Like everyone else, that's one twist they shouldn't have done.  They would've been fine stopping at George having ordered his murder.

[Kktjones]

So last night I was stomping around, fuming mad. They ruined CaptainSwan for me! They ruined Killian's characterization for a cheap twist! Today I'm feeling much more chill. Since there are no lasting repercussions for anyone on this show, why should I care that they just had Hook go against his "code" and murder Emma's grandfather in cold blood? I'm completely over it.

That said, there were some pretty great scenes in this episode. The one where David & Hook make the potion in the loft was some great comedic relief. Loved them both turning around counter-clockwise. I also thought their scene in the prison cell was very powerful. Josh Dallas actually surprised me there with his acting. I was really moved by the entire thing. I also liked the cute scene between Hook & Emma when he's distracting her from the shed. It caused him admit something he probably otherwise wouldn't have - that her near-death experience really affected him. We hardly ever get to see/hear people voicing these real reactions to things that happen to them.

Still not happy about the twist at the end, as the angst is getting exhausting to watch. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a big turn-off for casual viewers. As they wind down the series, I just don't think they needed to introduce this level of angst with only 10 episodes to go...

[andromeda331]

18 minutes ago, Vyk said:

Me during the episode: Well, save for the Regina/Not!Robin scenes, this is actually a damn good episode!

Me upon seeing the final twist: Ohhhhhhhh, crud.

I don't think he knew.  He stopped dead in his tracks when he saw his picture.  So I think he remembered the face of the man he killed, but he had no clue that it was David's father.  Don't forget that no one in Storybrooke had any idea of what he looked like other than David, Rumple, Pinocchio, and George.  Hook had heard about his father, but had no idea of what he looked like until he saw that picture.  So yeah, I don't think he knew.  And after he gets over the initial shock, I think David will understand that Hook didn't know.

But yeah.  Like everyone else, that's one twist they shouldn't have done.  They would've been fine stopping at George having ordered his murder.

It would have made more sense if it was George. He wasn't going to let James go back home with him and killing him made certain George didn't have to worry about James's father coming back later to try again and take James.

[Curio]

I'm surprised that Killian's past with killing his own father was never brought up during the episode, especially since the entire episode was about him murdering a father. But with that ending, I'm guessing the writers didn't want to make us remember that horrible Brennan retcon on top of introducing a new retcon. At least David got to grow up with the awesome Ruth. Poor Ruth...I mean, there's always the chance that Robert would have slipped back into being a crappy alcoholic father even after bringing James home, but still. Poor Ruth.

I have no idea why they didn't just go with Hook being in a role where he had the opportunity to save David's father's life but chose not to. Like, if he ambushed the cart and took the gold, saw the men about to kill Robert, and Hook turned a blind eye and said "do what you want with him I don't care" and walked away. It would have created the same angst effect they wanted without retconning Hook into Regina and Rumple territories of awful murders. You cannot convince me that the Captain Hook they've shown us for the past five years would have thought it was good form to kill a man in cold blood who had his hands tied and could not defend himself. The only scene that comes close to that is when he knocked out a defenseless Belle, but that was after she refused to give up information about the Dark One, and even that scene has always felt OOC for his character.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Curio

[Primetimer]

You know, that loose end you've been losing sleep over since Season 2? Oh, you weren't? You'd forgotten all about it and didn't actually care at all? Oh well, here it is anyway!

View the full article

[Noneofyourbusiness]

Eliminating the witness to the theft doesn't even make sense. Pirate characters like Hook are supposed to *want* their deeds talked about, so they can build up their reputation as infamous pirates.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

It made no sense whatsoever for Regina to take Robin 2.0 to her crypt of eeeeevil magic just so she could heal his hand. I mean, her explanation was that she needed to talk to him and apparently they can't talk at her house or at Granny's or walking through town the way everyone else does. But I guess at least we got to hear Robin tell her she's a hypocrite since they were surrounded by the hearts of her enemies, so there's that.

I just can't with this stupid "Hook killed David's dad" thing. Just...no.

Last week I was apoplectic about the whole "asking a woman's father for permission to get married" on The Flash, but at least on OUAT I can kind of let it go because Hook is 200 years old and he and David come from an olde tyme land. It still irked me, but it's a lot more understandable for someone who is not from this time period to think that's an appropriate thing to do.

[Curio]

I re-watched the final scene (apparently, I'm a glutton for punishment), and before August rode up on his bike, there's a brief shot of Killian walking down the sidewalk looking at Emma's ring box. When August rides up, Hook puts the box back into his pocket. Goddamnit, August!

But seriously, I need August to be somewhat shady here, because why else have they randomly brought him back? Just to play generic helpful nice guy with useful information? That's boring. The way he handed the pages off to Hook had a very "I know what you did" vibe to it.

[FormerMod-a1]

Maybe he's still "looking out" for Emma.  You know, keeping an eye on her and protecting her like he's done all these years.  (insert eyeroll)  Still, I am enjoying the pretty when he's on screen.

[Camera One]

Oh right, August is Emma's *other* father figure.  You win over one and then you have the other to deal with... you just can't win, I guess.   Young Pinocchio was quite the sassy wooden boy.  

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Poor Ruth...I mean, there's always the chance that Robert would have slipped back into being a crappy alcoholic father even after bringing James home, but still. Poor Ruth.

Though they sort of ruined Ruth's character in "White Out" when they had her send innocent wide-eyed Anna to Rumple... after this episode's flashbacks, I really don't think she would ever do that.  This is the thing with these Writers.  They forget even supporting characters need clear personalities and motivations.

I did sort of laugh when Hook gave the dramatic pause and described Pleasure Island as a "very dark place".  An amusement park is darker than the "you can be murdered at any time" nature of the Enchanted Forest?

Is there any in-show explanation for the David's father's ghost?  Is he in Underbrooke?  Or somewhere else, or what?  Is he imaginary?  I guess this falls under the category of "Your questions are pointless".

Edited March 13, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Kktjones said:

Still not happy about the twist at the end, as the angst is getting exhausting to watch. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a big turn-off for casual viewers. As they wind down the series, I just don't think they needed to introduce this level of angst with only 10 episodes to go...

Yeah. This was angst overload on a character who is already suffering from a severe case of self-loathing. There is nothing "fun" about Hook anymore, and it's not likely to get any better until the last minute. 

1 hour ago, Curio said:

Poor Ruth...I mean, there's always the chance that Robert would have slipped back into being a crappy alcoholic father even after bringing James home, but still. 

Yeah. It's not like this one flashback negates the fact that David's dad had been a neglectful alcoholic until that point, and he might well have slipped back into alcoholism after bringing James back, and not having enough to feed everyone. 

Edited March 13, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Curio]

4 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

This was angst overload on a character who is already suffering from a severe case of self-loathing. There is nothing "fun" about Hook anymore, and it's not likely to get any better until the last minute. 

This Robert reveal really needed to happen before the Underworld arc. I mean, that was supposed to be Killian at an all-time low where he didn't think he deserved to be saved by Emma and was severely punished. Are we going to get a repeat of that yet again? 

"Luv, I don't think I can live with you anymore."
"What? Why?"
"I'm not good enough for you. You deserve a better man. Someone who will always look out for you. Someone like August."
"Killian, I literally went to the Underworld just to save you and you admitted you believed you were worth saving."
"Yeah, well, I changed my mind. I'm back to believing I'm not worth it anymore."
"I've told you before I'm sick of living in the past. How many times do we need to have this conversation?"
"Until the series dies?"

[Selina K]

Me to my husband at 8:54, "Wow, we've been speculating on the boards that Hook was going to be behind David's father's death. That's so great that they completely subverted our expectations and went with what you would normally expect that never happens on this show. What a fun episode - I bet this was Espenson, funny moments, a little CS that was sweet because it wasn't supposed to be deep because of the subterfuge but once Hook started talking he sort of realized a truth as he said it. Just really nice"

Me to my husband at 8:56. "You fuckers! Why do I watch this damn show?"

I have to say I kind of enjoyed this Regina. Maybe I'm just pretending nothing else ever happened in her history, but I believed she wanted this to be her Robin, but got to understanding reality without killing some people.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Random, out of order notes on the episode:

I wish I'd quit watching at the Hook/David moment on the dock.  That was very nice.  I thought we'd escaped the 'Hook killed David's father' speculation that most on this forum had already called, but nope.  They had to do it anyway.  Ridiculous.  

More ridiculousness: David and George fighting with daggers in the prison basement.  Daggers?  Really?  Doesn't Charming usually carry a sword?  Was that just to make us reminisce about Pan because of the Pleasure Island mention.  

August was way too smarmy.

Even more ridiculousness: Regina had to take Not!Robin to the freaking sex crypt in order to heal his hand with a wave of hers.  Right.  Cause she couldn't do it any where else.  I was (mentally) yelling, DO. NOT. KISS.  But of course they did.  I was gratified to see there was nothing in the kiss.  And nice to see Not!Robin call Regina out on all the hearts she's still keeping around.  Thanks for that at least, show.  I guess since Regina got a little tear down, they had to include the even bigger Hook tear down at the end.  

Oh hey, a shout out for Roland!

I did like Hook going to talk to Archie.  I thought that was an interesting dynamic, given their past, and a good scene.  Especially Archie's expression when Hook said he was still a pirate but the good kind.  Lol.  

I'm sure there's more, but I'm not remembering.  Off to read the comments now.

[Curio]

6 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Oh hey, a shout out for Roland!

Wait, did Roland get a name drop? I thought they completely forgot about him and only mentioned Pistachio?

[Camera One]

7 minutes ago, Curio said:

Wait, did Roland get a name drop? I thought they completely forgot about him and only mentioned Pistachio?

I don't think she said his name.  Just that one child is not here, and one child is.

[kili]

CSI: Enchanted Forrest must be really bad. Nobody notice that the drunken cart victim had been stabbed through the heart with a sword? 

Pinocchio had been sentient for twenty years before he abandoned Emma? Okay, not feeling so bad that Geppetto gave an impossible task to an 8 year old - he gave it to a 28 year old. 

Hook should look 200 years old. He apparently spent none of the intervening years actually in Neverland. He was always in the Enchanted Forrest. Rumple, who can see the future and detect the presence of people never noticed.

I thought the twist was going to be that David's dad was a donkey. That he fell  hard off the wagon in Pleasure Island and turned into a donkey as one does when one is there.

Edited March 13, 2017 by kili

[Curio]

1 hour ago, aquarian1 said:

Still, I am enjoying the pretty when he's on screen.

I feel like I'm missing out on some big universal secret whenever August is on screen because I don't think he's that good looking. I mean, he's definitely not unattractive and I can see why other people may think he's pretty, but he's always just seemed very...generic? 

Also, I find it ironic that this entire season was supposed to be about the Evil Queen and how evil she is, yet in a matter of less than two minutes, one Captain Hook flashback is officially way more villainous and evil than anything she's pulled off this season. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

15 hours ago, Arynm said:

Hook didn't know right? Right??!! I can't live if he was misleading Charming that whole time. It would be too cruel. I hope he realized what he did after he read the book.

I, too, am of the opinion that Hook didn't realize it was David's father until he saw the picture.

15 hours ago, AmeliaBedelia said:

 Why is Emma kayaking/canoeing in winter? She doesn't strike me as the type to go "I almost died last night. Today, I kayak!"

I LOL'ed at this.  Maybe kayaking is part of getting her life back?  Because we've missed seeing the outdoorsy, athletic Emma of seasons past...You know, the one who enjoys long walks through the Neverland woods, and canoeing over to Skull Island.

13 hours ago, Frozendiva said:

Perhaps there are other pages. Who is to say those are real?

That would actually be a pretty cool twist.  I mean, August was able to write other fake pages and sew them into the book, wasn't he?

Except yeah - Killian actually remembered.

8 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

 I'm just over here being all shallow and thinking Hook was looking really hot while carrying out this inexplicable murder.

I think that might be the best place to be. 

4 hours ago, KateJones said:

And I still don't trust August. He's a little too Gary Sue right now. Golly gee whiz here are the pages I found. There's something sinister about the smile and fake earnestness. Like Walsh before he turned into a monkey.  

What if August is really Not!Rumple from the Wish Realm?  Not!Robin came through the magic-wardrobe-portal-that-shouldn't-have-worked.  Maybe Not!Rumple followed soon after they'd left.  It even could have been Not!Rumple masquerading as August in the wish realm after he locked Regina and Not!Robin up - which is why he didn't bother to track them down after they escaped.  

[Curio]

9 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Maybe kayaking is part of getting her life back?  Because we've missed seeing the outdoorsy, athletic Emma of seasons past...You know, the one who enjoys long walks through the Neverland woods, and canoeing over to Skull Island.

I'm still trying to figure out how that conversation went down.

David: Congrats Emma! You're not dead! What would you like to do to celebrate?
Emma: Well, I've been really hoping to just take a nice long nap and not think about Gideon...
Henry: Hey mom, I'm really excited you're back! I was thinking we could spend the entire day together to celebrate. Mother-son bonding! Let's go canoeing!
Emma: Do we even own a canoe? Why don't we just take Hook's ship for a spin? There are nice beds on there where I can sleep...
Henry: I guess I can just hang out with my other mom instead all day...
Emma: Canoeing it is!

4 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

What if August is really Not!Rumple from the Wish Realm?  Not!Robin came through the magic-wardrobe-portal-that-shouldn't-have-worked.  Maybe Not!Rumple followed soon after they'd left.  It even could have been Not!Rumple masquerading as August in the wish realm after he locked Regina and Not!Robin up - which is why he didn't bother to track them down after they escaped.  

I wish they had something up their sleeves, but I really do think they're writing August as a one-note, genuine, nice guy, super helpful person with really bizarre and random knowledge who'll always help his friends. No puppet strings attached. Which is rather boring, but as long as he's only on screen for a few minutes (unlike the premiere), it's not as grating.

@KingOfHearts, I'm curious what you thought of the Regina/Zelena interactions. I don't really have a horse in this race, but I know you're a Zelena fan, and this was their first major interaction after their last fight. It seemed odd that Regina was still snide towards her sister even though the entire reason they had their last fight was because Regina blamed Zelena for Robin's death. So now that Robin is "alive" again, shouldn't she not be as pissed off?

[Camera One]

Regina has now realized this Robin is basically a psycho photograph, so her feelings about Zelena would not have changed.

Extended scene to your canoe conversation above.

GRANNY: But wait a minute... isn't it dangerous to go canoeing alone if Gideon is out there?

EMMA: I don't think the Dark Realm has water, so he probably can't swim. Plus I have Henry, who just got knighted!

GRUMPY: Uh, wrong memory, sister.

[Shanna Marie]

The more I think about David's dad's death, the less sense it makes. For one thing, they were on Pleasure Island when George's men took Robert into custody. You know, an island, as we saw on the map. Wouldn't it have been easier to push him overboard on the way back and spread the story that the useless drunk got drunk at Pleasure Island and fell overboard? Wasn't it a little overly complicated to buy a wagon of supplies to tie him to and then push over a cliff? Did the soldiers get an expense account to buy a wagon and the supplies, or did that come out of their payoff? How would they even have known to create that cover story? David was the only one who thought that his father had gone on a supply run. George wouldn't have known that was his cover story. No one should have known that this was a way to fit in what Robert was thought to have been doing when he was really off rescuing James. Furthermore, Ruth knew that he was going to go try to find James and bring him home, so why would she have believed the falling off a cliff during a supply run story and perpetuated that with David? Okay, maybe the fact that her husband died while going to save James might have scared her about what would have happened to her and David if she'd talked, but you'd think she might have softened the story somewhat with a small child, and after David knew about the other twin and was in the middle of a war with George, you'd think Ruth would have set the record straight.

So we've got several things here that don't make sense -- an overly complicated way to dispose of a peasant, that somehow fits the cover story the man told his young son that the perpetrators had no idea was his cover story, and his wife apparently believed it or let his son believe it in spite of the fact that she knew the supply run was only something he told David. But wait, there's more!

Why did the soldiers have the reward money for "saving Prince James" with them while they were carrying out the assassination? George seems more the type to not pay them off until they finished all related jobs. Even if he paid them up front, they'd obviously gone somewhere to change into civilian clothes for carrying out the scheme, so they could have stashed the money. There was absolutely no reason for them to have had the reward money with them for Hook and the pirates to steal. The only thing for the pirates to steal would have been the supplies, which they apparently pushed off the cliff. And then, as we've already mentioned, Hook has never cared before about whether or not people could identify him as a culprit, and he was going to be heading back to Neverland, so it's not like George could have done anything to him even if he'd known he'd killed his guards. Plus, since the guards were in civilian disguise and there was no way to know that they were soldiers, how did Hook and his gang know who they were and what they were doing and that they'd have any money with them?

They had to seriously warp a lot of logic to come up with a twist that was so shocking we predicted it the moment Colin and Josh said something about there being something from the past to create conflict between Hook and David, since these writers are so one-note that there was only one thing it could be.

On another note, the asking for the blessing didn't bother me because it wasn't so much the "you own this woman and I am asking for her" traditional version. It was more like, "You're pretty hostile to me, and yet sometimes you act like you like me, so I have no idea what the hell is going on with you, and that could make life difficult for me to be married to your daughter, so let's clear the air -- are you going to be okay with this, or are you going to be an utter jerk and make my life hell?"

[BoPeeps]

A&E and by extension their writing team, have always disrespected their characters.  It is one of their biggest and most damaging flaws.  All across the spectrum they redefine, betray, re-write, ignore development of their characters for the sake of plot points.  It keeps them mediocre with moments of brilliance saving them now and then

This episode was a case in point of that flaw.

While I actually liked several scenes very much (Pleasure Island had sooo many super possibilities but alas ...eh) and felt they finally gave David more than throw away lines, they still produce a lousy tale full of holes, with extremely imbalanced focus.  All in all this should just be stand alone episode show because the serial flow has mostly disappeared.  They simply cannot make up their minds about what kind of show they want to produce.  I wish some edgier cable company could scoop this up and run with it as it should have been written.

Zelena's token appearance was so unnecessary.  Snow and her sudden appearance to pep-talk Regina was out of left field and goofy.  As was Archie and his couch advise to Hook. Even Emma was flitted in to give a token shallow smooch moment to appease ultra PG Romance Novel fans and keep them ooo-ing and ahhh-ing over yet another warm and fuzzy moment with CS.  These two have been to hell and back and they still write them these fluff, high school scenes of no depth whatsoever.  And hey, I adore them as a couple, but when they go the repetitive bland route, they are very very boring. Complete waste.

Who IS Regina anymore???? And Robin Hood...wtf?  He got the same weird Hook as a new-old character routine.  As far as Hook goes  they have betrayed his character so many times it is no surprise he is the resident *sybil* with all kinds of alternate personalities popping in and out.  They introduced him as a steamy, sexy menacing pirate, then made him the irresistible smart assed bad boy with a passionate, wounded heart, then cleaned him up to PG status and took away almost all of his sass and depth.  Now he is a cold blooded murderer- but only in his rewritten past that was not true to the original character and blah blah blah.

(Rumple I miss you!!  And I miss the strong women, too)

[Camera One]

1 minute ago, Shanna Marie said:

How would they even have known to create that cover story? David was the only one who thought that his father had gone on a supply run. George wouldn't have known that was his cover story. No one should have known that this was a way to fit in what Robert was thought to have been doing when he was really off rescuing James.

I had that exact question when I was watching.  George's conversation with David's dad at the Pleasure Island docks made no sense since he wouldn't have known any of that stuff.  

Maybe you could tweet Jane for an explanation.

[kirkola]

13 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

It taints Captain Swan for me, and I don't think the writers fully realized what they did. Rumple killed Belle's fiance, Regina killed Robin's wife, and now Hook has killed Emma's grandfather. 

I thought maybe Hook was going to ask him to join his crew.

Did Rumple kill Belle's finance?  I recall Rumple just turning Gaston into a rose, which was a much more pleasant end than Gaston probably deserves (a genuinely terrible movie character).  It was Belle who actually did the "killing" as it were. 

Personally I'd love to see Belle giving one of her sanctimonious speeches and have Rumple roll his eyes and say something like "really, you're not so innocent either, since you are the one that killed Gaston". 

I love Beauty and the Beast.  I love Emile de Ravin and Robert Carlyle, but their story is just a mess.

[Camera One]

I just remembered David knows George was responsible for his mother dying and he hasn't felt the need to murder him until now.  

[asabovesobelow]

I liked it. I thought they were going full throttle with the canonization of Saint Hook this episode and then BAM - not so much.  I'm sure it'll be all forgiveness and roses in no time, but at least it makes it more interesting for the time being. 

I was also pleasantly surprised that Regina realized this Robin was not the same guy she was with so quickly. That could have been really draggy, but the feel-nothing kiss sealed the deal. Yay. And this Robin is way more interesting than the last one.

Certainly in the minority, but I love the Snow/Regina friendship. After everything they've been through together, seeing them at a kitchen table talking is just so...peaceful. 

I assumed the murder was in the pages August gave to Hook, and he was giving him the choice whether to show them to David or not. It is a little weird that August is all of a sudden so involved in everything. 

[Curio]

4 minutes ago, kirkola said:

I love Beauty and the Beast.  I love Emile de Ravin and Robert Carlyle, but their story is just a mess.

If you love Beauty and the Beast, at least you'll be happy this weekend when the movie comes out. OUAT's version isn't even Beauty and the Beast anymore. Also, is there any relationship on this show where the story isn't a mess?

4 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I just remembered David knows George was responsible for his mother dying and he hasn't felt the need to murder him until now.  

Oh good gravy. 

Well, if it's one thing this episode has accomplished, it's a ton of discussion. It hasn't even been a full day since the episode has aired and this thread already has more posts than the spring premiere's thread.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

@KINGOFHEARTS, I'm curious what you thought of the Regina/Zelena interactions. I don't really have a horse in this race, but I know you're a Zelena fan, and this was their first major interaction after their last fight. It seemed odd that Regina was still snide towards her sister even though the entire reason they had their last fight was because Regina blamed Zelena for Robin's death. So now that Robin is "alive" again, shouldn't she not be as pissed off?

Both Regina and Zelena were in defense mode, over different things. Regina didn't want Zelena touching Robin (that sounds wrong), and Zelena didn't want Robin anywhere near her baby. I liked seeing Zelena have some agency in her life choices. IMO, Regina has forfeited any say over Pistachio, since she has neglected to show any care for her at all. Zelena has been the one at the farmhouse changing diapers, feeding her, etc. As far as Regina's pissy-ness goes, it comes down to the writers dumbing down the relationship between the two sisters. In interviews, they've played the whole thing off as sibling rivalry, like two toddlers fighting over a toy. Regina is, by-and-large, an unforgiving person with an unsatisfied thirst for vengeance. She dragged out her feud with Snow long after she learned it was actually Cora who orchestrated the whole thing. And really, it's not like she's all that satisfied with her new Robin either.

Quote

I just remembered David knows George was responsible for his mother dying and he hasn't felt the need to murder him until now.  

For me, David's passion for avenging his father is out of left field a bit. He has only mentioned his father twice before this episode (4x02, 6x02), so the daddy issues have been absent for most of the series. You raise a good point, @Camera One, that he didn't have nearly the bloodthirst over Ruth's death. Yet, she was part of his life much more than his father ever was. LBR, the conspiracy was a retcon the writers shoved in there for cheap angst.

Edited March 13, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

17 minutes ago, asabovesobelow said:

Certainly in the minority, but I love the Snow/Regina friendship. After everything they've been through together, seeing them at a kitchen table talking is just so...peaceful. 

"Everything they've been through together" being Regina persecuting Snow, trying to kill her and her loved ones, and ruining her life.  And more importantly, showing little to no regret for any of that and barely doing anything to atone for it while Snow does all the apologizing and heavy-lifting in their "friendship".  THAT is why you're in the minority on this subject. These "kitchen table" moments are completely unearned and disingenuous. 

Edited March 13, 2017 by Mathius