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kariyaki

S04.E06: XXXIV

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Nassau is delivered; Silver makes a painful amends; Madi and Flint are separated; Rogers searches for Eleanor.

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Madi BETTER NOT be dead! But if she's alive she's now stuck on an island full of Spanish soldiers. Billy too. If she is alive I think those two will cross paths again and may even form an alliance. How sad though that if she's not alive the thing she fought most for is now happening but she's not alive to see it. She cannot be dead though. I refuse to believe it. 

Silver broke my heart in his mourning. Just gut wrenching.

It was hard seeing Eleanor go out like that, but it was a long time coming and Rogers got what he deserved in her death. Did he really think he could unleash the Spanish on Nassau and there wouldn't be grave consequences? Obviously he did. It was an ill thought out plan.

Jack should've just cut his losses and followed Flint. Mac is going to get him and Anne killed. Do they really think Eleanor's grandfather is going to listen to a pirate and a prostitute of African descent no less? Their plan has disaster written all over it.

Edited by Enero
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Man, that was a rough one.  Normally, I'm pretty firmly in the "no body, no death" camp about these things, but the serious looking head wound, coupled with being passed out in a burning building, seems like too much to overcome.  

I'm kind of mad that Eleanor ended up dead because of something Rogers did.  Like, Rogers is a piece of shit, and he totally deserves to have his recklessness backfire on him spectacularly, but Eleanor should have died because of something she did.  I feel like she's earned that, at least.

I actually have higher hopes for Max's plan than I do for Flint's.  I mean, it's generally a lot easier to go after one guy than it is the whole of civilization.  It doesn't hurt that the one guy has just destroyed his only means of income at a time when he's just barely keeping out of debtor's prison.  Plus, they have at least a couple people on their ship who can look respectable for Eleanor's grandfather if the need arises.  

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15 minutes ago, yellowfred said:

I'm kind of mad that Eleanor ended up dead because of something Rogers did.  Like, Rogers is a piece of shit, and he totally deserves to have his recklessness backfire on him spectacularly, but Eleanor should have died because of something she did.  I feel like she's earned that, at least.

But can't it be argued that she DID do this? If she'd not had Vane hung in the center of Nassau perhaps it wouldn't have come to this - all that followed including Rogers enlisting Spain's help, which led to the invasion that killed her?

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I mean, I guess?  I feel like that's a few too many layers of causation for my taste.  Like, sure, Vane's death was a huge motivating factor for the resistance, but Berringer played as much a role as she did (if not a bigger one) in the pirates gaining enough support to retake Nassau.  Not to mention, that gives her credit for Rogers having a disproportionate response to Nassau being retaken, which I don't think is fair.  

Plus, the Spanish guy that killed her didn't even know who she was.  He just killed her because she was in the wrong place at the wrong time.  I mean, she's been a major player in this whole conflict from the very beginning, and I think she deserved better than getting killed as collateral damage because of Rogers' mistake.

Side note: if Madi is, in fact, dead, she also deserved better.

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^ Great point. I agree. If Madi is dead she certainly deserved better as well. That's one thing I didn't want to see her sacrificed on the alter of LJS. If she is dead that is exactly what happened and will leave a very bitter taste in my mouth.

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Cant believe Madi's dead. We need to see the body !

But damn, that was a tough episode.

Many wont, but I'll miss you Eleanore. You were flawed sure, but damn, you were a very well written character and an emblem of the show since the beginning. So long princess.

And I keep every episode thinking it's gonna be the end of Anne or Jack and now I'm afraid the Guthries will hang them as soon as they present themselves at their door...

Edited by Triskan
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I don't think Madi is dead.  I could be wrong.  

How did Eleanor get so far away from that house?  That part felt fake, like they needed a scene where Rogers finds her, but that did nothing emotionally for me.

Watch out a Rogers, you messed with BOTH of Max's women, she's not going to let that shit go.

This show is best when you binge watch it.  So many things happen in each episode that it's hard to keep track.

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Yeah, I must say Max's choices this episode was very "low-key" but it must have been among the most important development this week : her choice to side against Woodes as he's responsible for El's death and Anne's injuries... hehe, looking forward to see what she'll come up with now that she's back with pirates ! 

Oh and I must say I'm confused as to why Jack didnt at least tell Flint his plan to go to the Guthries... sure, Flint would probably not approve, but it would have been better than to leave them behind without a word as to what they're planning ! 

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No Body= No Death plus, the creators of the show didn't mention Madi's death in the after show segment.

How fitting that Rodgers caused Eleanor's death with his actions.

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22 minutes ago, FlowerofCarnage said:

How fitting that Rodgers caused Eleanor's death with his actions.

The part of me that still wants to vomit when I think of what Rogers did to Teach, feels immensely gratified. I hope mrs. Redhead will tell him that Eleanor was pregnant, and that that was the reason for her retreat, just so he'll suffer more. But the part of me which - even when I hated Eleanor the most - enjoyed the fact, that she was a woman with agency in a world which gave no quarters to women and POCs, is terribly disappointed. I don't mind that she's dead, in fact, I don't think it could have gone any other way with this show, but I wanted her to die because of her own actions, not some man's. One can make a case for it being the accumulation of her actions, a sort of domino effect if you will, but her death still feels like Rogers' punishment, not her own, if that makes sense?

That said, this was an intense episode and I really enjoyed it. I don't know if I would have been as quick to forgive as Rackham was (and I'm happy Anne didn't just roll out the welcoming mat), but Max really is one of the cleverest characters and Rogers should be very, very afraid. I'm also happy Silver absolved Flint of Madi's death*; their relationship is one of the most fascinating things on the show. Silver is - while terrible in his own way - strangely honourable (as we also see in TI) and surprisingly quick to forgive his friends (se also: Billy). I look forward to see what will cause the final split between him and Flint.

*I don't believe Madi's dead, either. I'm pretty sure the show will end as it began in Nassau (with an epilogue close to the beginning of TI) and finding Madi alive will be one of the resolutions the Silver's character arc. How dark he'll grow before that end remains to be seen...

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50 minutes ago, FlowerofCarnage said:

No Body= No Death plus, the creators of the show didn't mention Madi's death in the after show segment.

How fitting that Rodgers caused Eleanor's death with his actions.

 

I thought it strange that they didn't mention Madi's death during the after show segment. I'm taking that as a sign and holding out hope that she isn't. It would be disappointing for her to go out like that.

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5 hours ago, Enero said:

^ Great point. I agree. If Madi is dead she certainly deserved better as well. That's one thing I didn't want to see her sacrificed on the alter of LJS. If she is dead that is exactly what happened and will leave a very bitter taste in my mouth.

I was worried about this leading into the season, but I'm not as concerned now based on the story they're telling.  Among other reasons, they've spent too much time setting up a "Madi chooses a life with John" scenario to kill her before the payoff: her conversation with Ruth ("build a wall and save those you can"), her conversation with John ("Would I be enough?"), and this episode's conversation with Eleanore ("being with someone you love and who loves you in return").  Now, if she had already made the choice and *then* apparently died, then I'd be worried.

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

How did Eleanor get so far away from that house?  That part felt fake, like they needed a scene where Rogers finds her, but that did nothing emotionally for me.

Watch out a Rogers, you messed with BOTH of Max's women, she's not going to let that shit go.

I think it's plausible that Eleanor found the will and strength to slowly drag herself out.  That fire had been burning for a while.  In my mind, the more important narrative purpose was for Flint to find her outside of the house, away from Madi, to carry the news that she's dead without confirming it for the audience.  

Now, onto the thing I've been holding in for a while:  Shut up, Jack!

How dare he act as though he was not a driving force for this very situation?  As I recall, he was the one who decided that his mission, his claim to fame, would be denying Rogers the cache with "Nassau burns and a new pirate republic is born out of the ashes" as a desirable outcome.  And now he's blaming Max for doing exactly what she has always been committed to doing:  working to establish stability for herself and for Nassau?  Whatever, dude, I will never forget that you sanctioned this woman's captivity and rape in order to help pay off your debts (losing the Ranger crew's pearls) and then urged Vane--not once, but twice--to kill her once you potentially had a deal with Eleanor and Flint.  Who needs to be begging for whose forgiveness, now?

I cheered when Max finally let her anger show and decided to go after Rogers.  She's right about how you bring down civilization, and I'm hoping that her plan (historical info spoilers)

Spoiler

is what lands Woodes Rogers in debtor's prison and what leads to Jack's hanging.  

I've never been a huge fan of the Max/Anne love story, mostly because it reinforces some icky sexist tropes that I would rather see die off.  After this episode, however, I would be okay with an ending where Max sails off into the sunset with Anne.  I can see her feeling guilty about her actual lie to Anne (that Jack was being tortured), but the show had better not forget that she did *not* lie about Jack being handed over to Spain; that decision was made after her conversation with Anne and without her knowledge.  If that pairing is endgame, then they need to have a conversation to clear things up first.

Gee, that was a lot of reaction!  *goes back to lurking*

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Just a thought in passing for Julius and De Groot... especially for the second one, who I wonder if we'll ever see again, and for the first, because I wonder what happened to him (maybe he died during the fight and I missed him but I dont seem to recall seing him at the meeting between Flint and Silver before leaving the island). ETA : Oh, both are actually in the very last scene, so much for that !

Edited by Triskan

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I don't think Madi is dead either, we would have gotten confirmation and a more tragic death scene. RIP Eleanor. I knew she'd die when they confirmed she was pregnant with Satan's spawn. I agree that she deserved better than to die as Rodgers' punishment, after all she had enough enemies of her own. She's had such little agency in her last two seasons, considering where she started out, it makes me sad.

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Madi's not dead.  There was the sound of a window crashing just before Eleanor blacked out while she was laying on top of Madi.  Someone dragged them both out.  Eleanor was left behind, because she was obviously too badly injured to make it and Madi was taken away.  No spoilers.  Just my opinion.

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What to say.

This episode confirmed for me that Jack will almost certainly hang and Anne and Max will survive. If Max can waltz onto that ship and start commanding Jack without getting her head blasted off her shoulders she can survive anything.

Nods to the show for killing off Eleanor. I don't think she deserved better. Why is it that every time a woman dies on a television show people start to talk about how she "deserved better"? If anything the show allowed her to go out a "hero", trying to save her "sister". Her slave sister. Also fully expecting the obligatory tumblrina complaints about "man pain" in regards to Silver and Madi, even though for every woman killed in an emotional fashion on this show, one hundred men die. It would be seriously weird if Madi was dead, though, for any number of reasons. I have to gravitate to the "no body no death" camp.

Season four has included a fair number of deus ex machinae. For that reason I find it weaker than season three, but it's still a very nice show.

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I hope Rogers comes to a horrible end - he saw one of his people getting dragged out of her house, presumably to be gang raped, and he didn't do a thing.  The only words of concern out of his mouth were for his damn wife.

I have no sympathy for Eleanor - she refused to believe the worst of "civilized" men and put all her trust in them.  First her father, and then her scumbag husband.  I really hope Madi managed to escape.

At the end, I was afraid the Spanish made their way to the Maroon camp.  Glad to see it was more reinforcements, but I'm not entirely sure what they plan to do next.

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4 hours ago, FlowerofCarnage said:

No Body= No Death plus, the creators of the show didn't mention Madi's death in the after show segment.

One thing this show has been consistent about; if someone dies on the show, they show you their dead body (Flint's first quartermaster, Miranda, Vane, etc).

4 hours ago, feverfew said:

One can make a case for it being the accumulation of her actions, a sort of domino effect if you will, but her death still feels like Rogers' punishment, not her own, if that makes sense?

I don't feel Eleanor's death is Rogers' punishment.  He may feel it is, but, last season the one thing Eleanor wanted to do was kill Vane for what he did to her father.  It was a domino effect because, at least to me, Eleanor died because she'd lost who she was.  Like the scene in the first episode, with the women sewing, Eleanor pricked her finger with the needle and Max looked at her with this look that said, "WTF are you doing sewing, Eleanor?"  When Eleanor asked Max, "where would we have gone?"  I think a part of Eleanor wished she'd run away with Max, when Max asked her to.  Maybe Eleanor died because she was pretending to be someone, something she wasn't.

4 hours ago, netlyon2 said:

I've never been a huge fan of the Max/Anne love story, mostly because it reinforces some icky sexist tropes that I would rather see die off.  After this episode, however, I would be okay with an ending where Max sails off into the sunset with Anne.

I remember last season, either it was an interview or on Twitter, where one of the producers made a comment that,

Spoiler

no one really knows what happened to Anne Bonny.  There have been many rumors, including one that she continued with the pirate lifestyle under another name.  During season two, I listened to a podcast where fans wondered if Mary Read was going to show up; one theory was that Max was going to become Mary Read, which, I guess could happen.

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Just going to point out here that:

Spoiler

In the synopsis of next episode Billy "finds a survivor". Care to speculate who that is. Of course Madi is alive.

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1 minute ago, Kathemy said:

Just going to point out here that:

  Hide contents

In the synopsis of next episode Billy "finds a survivor". Care to speculate who that is. Of course Madi is alive.

Spoiler

And in chains judging from the preview.  Oh lord, what is Billy planning to do to her? I think whatever it is will be the reason Billy is so deathly afraid of Silver in TI.

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Just now, FlowerofCarnage said:
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And in chains judging from the preview.  Oh lord, what is Billy planning to do to her? I think whatever it is will be the reason Billy is so deathly afraid of Silver in TI.

Spoiler

Where can you watch the preview? Youtube tuns up zero.

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4 hours ago, netlyon2 said:

Whatever, dude, I will never forget that you sanctioned this woman's captivity and rape in order to help pay off your debts (losing the Ranger crew's pearls) and then urged Vane--not once, but twice--to kill her once you potentially had a deal with Eleanor and Flint.  Who needs to be begging for whose forgiveness, now?

I'm glad that this was brought up.  I also feel that rape was a HUGE turning point.  As I remember that happened to Max because Eleanor double crossed her and then Vane took it out on Max.  That was why Max/Eleanor as an endgame was impossible; but when Max was gang raped, that was the beginning of Anne/Max.  

4 hours ago, netlyon2 said:

but the show had better not forget that she did *not* lie about Jack being handed over to Spain; that decision was made after her conversation with Anne and without her knowledge.  If that pairing is endgame, then they need to have a conversation to clear things up first.

And I really agree with this.  Max did NOT double cross Jack.  Mrs. Hudson had a conversation with the man she was spying for and it was HE who said Jack had to go to Havana, Rogers caved because Spain had invested a lot of $$ in him and he was screwed.  So Rogers was the one who betrayed Jack, not Max.

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Ehm, okay... Let's check what Jack actually said, then?

Max: "You hit the governor right when he was at his weakest. And at what result?"

Jack: "What result? That result was because of your goddamn betrayal! Just now, that man and several others wondered aloud whether the smartest thing to do wouldn't be killing you and throwing you in the sea rather than giving you another opportunity to fuck us!"

So. Is he talking about Max double-crossing Jack, or Anne? No. So, what is he talking about? The sinking of the pirate fleet, anyone? How will you spin that not to be a betrayal?

Bottom line, Max screwed every single pirate in Nassau over. That's not open to debate, it's cold hard fact.

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1 hour ago, Kathemy said:

Bottom line, Max screwed every single pirate in Nassau over. That's not open to debate, it's cold hard fact

And who was it that engineered Max's gang rape?

I think everybody on this show has screwed someone else over at some time.

Edited by Neurochick
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11 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

And who was it that engineered Max's gang rape?

I think everybody on this show has screwed someone else over at some time.

I'm not claiming Max has never been wronged. I'm just saying it's impossible to claim that the pirates - Max, Anne, Teach, Flint, Jack, John, Billy, Madi, everyone - don't have legitimate grievances with her.

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8 minutes ago, Kathemy said:

I'm not claiming Max has never been wronged. I'm just saying it's impossible to claim that the pirates - Max, Anne, Teach, Flint, Jack, John, Billy, Madi, everyone - don't have legitimate grievances with her.

Maybe, in this particular case, but in this show everybody has, at one point doubled crossed someone else; Julius said that much to Silver, which was why he asked why should he trust Silver, since, to him, pirates seemed to change alliances at the drop of a hat.  

Now that Eleanor's dead I do have a question, or maybe I missed it.  Did we ever find out who sold her out?  Who caused her to be captured in season two?  If we didn't, I wonder if we'll ever find out.

Edited by Neurochick

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It's hard to believe we're halfway through already!

Regarding Eleanor's death: I'm okay with it. I actually rooted for Eleanor throughout most of this show, largely out of spite at all the over-the-top haters who held her to a MUCH higher standard than all the equally back-stabbing male characters, but I only just realized last week that Mr Scott had been her slave, which kind of threw me a little (rape and slavery are the two dealbreakers for me when it comes to liking/disliking fictional characters, which is why I never cared much for Vane or Rackham either - they didn't rape Max, but they sure as hell didn't do anything to stop it either).

Her death caught me by surprise considering her pregnancy and the rekindling of her relationship with Max seemed to be indicators she'd make it out alive, but after my initial annoyance that her death seemed designed to punish Rogers, I took into consideration the scene with Madi (presuming she's still alive) and Max - her last words with Madi seemed designed to encourage her to accept a quiet life with John Silver, and her death has spurred Max to seek out her own revenge by going to Grandfather Guthrie.

Basically, a white woman was killed to inspire a black woman and kickstart a mixed-race woman's revenge plot - you sure as hell don't see that everyday. Also, she got to go down fighting. There are worse deaths. (I'm just going to avoid all the obnoxious gloating from Eleanor haters on YouTube). 

One scene I really loved was when the Spanish were advancing on the cottage and Flint automatically took control of the men gathered there: it was subtle, but you could see the surprise on the British soldier's/Madi's black bodyguard's faces when they realize they're naturally inclined to follow his orders. 

I have zero problems with Rackham listening to Max. They have a history, he knows she's clever, he knows he messed with her the same way she messed with him, he knows Anne isn't interested in revenge and he's not a particularly vindictive man anyway. I think he was struck by her logic: you can't beat civilization from the outside in, but the inside out. 

Of course, the final scene throws that into a little bit of doubt. This will surely end badly for most of our main characters, but in this "fictional history" they'll be credited for uprisings all across the New World.

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4 minutes ago, Ravenya003 said:

 

Basically, a white woman was killed to inspire a black woman and kickstart a mixed-race woman's revenge plot - you sure as hell don't see that everyday. Also, she got to go down fighting. There are worse deaths. (I'm just going to avoid all the obnoxious gloating from Eleanor haters on YouTube). 

 

LOL usually it's the other way around, the black person dies to inspire the white folks.

Eleanor did go down like a badass, and she killed that fucker too.

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5 hours ago, peridot said:

I hope Rogers comes to a horrible end - he saw one of his people getting dragged out of her house, presumably to be gang raped, and he didn't do a thing.  The only words of concern out of his mouth were for his damn wife.

I think I have to defend Rogers here, as icky as that makes me feel. At that point there was nothing he could do to prevent it. He couldn't even get a guarantee for his own wife's safety after all, much less some random stranger. He's an English governor with no authority over Spanish troops, who happen to be at war with Britain, and the Spanish governor has no love or loyalty for Rogers. Considering Rogers murdered his brother, he probably loathes him, and he only agreed to Rogers' plan in order to destroy the pirates.

Rogers may be Nassau's governor, but it's fate is entirely in the Spanish governor's hands. Rogers has been reduced to spectator.

Of course Rogers is still fully to blame for everything that happens in Nassau. The Spanish are there at his invitation. He led them through the harbor, and any of the atrocities that have followed should have been expected. What did he think was going to happen if Spain was allowed to sack Nassau?

No way Madi is dead. No character is dead on TV until we see their body!

Edited by Scaeva

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53 minutes ago, Ravenya003 said:

Basically, a white woman was killed to inspire a black woman and kickstart a mixed-race woman's revenge plot - you surxe as hell don't see that everyday. Also, she got to go down fighting. There are worse deaths. (I'm just going to avoid all the obnoxious gloating from Eleanor haters on YouTube). 

Love this! ❤️ 

Quote

One scene I really loved was when the Spanish were advancing on the cottage and Flint automatically took control of the men gathered there: it was subtle, but you could see the surprise on the British soldier's/Madi's black bodyguard's faces when they realize they're naturally inclined to follow his orders. 

This! I also enjoyed seeing Madi's authority on display as well. When her talk with Eleanor got serious all she had to do was look towards her bodyguard and he stepped out the room. BTW, was it shown where he went? When Eleanor discovered the Spanish soldier in the house there was a shot of the British soldier he killed dead on the porch but I don't recall seeing Madi's soldier. 

Another thing I liked about the house scene is that when they were waiting inside, Madi immediately got a book to read, probably an attempt to calm her nerves and of course a call back to her love of reading. 

Lastly, did anyone think Flint watching Miranda's house go up in flames symbolize the final death knell in the dream he spoke of to Vane last season about finding some sense of stability and domesticity?

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6 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I'm glad that this was brought up.  I also feel that rape was a HUGE turning point.  As I remember that happened to Max because Eleanor double crossed her and then Vane took it out on Max.  That was why Max/Eleanor as an endgame was impossible; but when Max was gang raped, that was the beginning of Anne/Max.  

Max was threatened by the Ranger crew as a result of Eleanor revealing who was trying to sell the Urca schedule.  She gave up the location of the meet when faced with the threat of Flint, Gates, and Billy beating it out of her.

When Max ran (rather than stay under Eleanor's protection), Anne caught her and delivered her to the Ranger crew around the time that they discovered that Jack had lost their 5,000 in black pearls.  It's unclear how she ended up in the hut, but it is clear that the crew is mollified by raping her and therefore willing to give Jack time to make amends for the money that he lost.  Jack is perfectly fine with this arrangement until the prospect of sailing in consort with the Walrus makes it prudent for him to tie up loose ends.  He suggests as much to Vane, who gives orders for Max to be released and spirited away.  Jack replies that he wasn't suggesting her release, clearly (to me, anyway) implying that he meant for Vane to kill Max, not let her go.

My view has always been that Jack and Anne were more directly (and uncaringly) responsible for Max's torment than Eleanor and Vane, which made it all the more galling when her gratitude at being freed led her to throw her lot in with them.  She has done far more for Jack than he ever did for her.  I've never been a fan of the Max/Anne pairing because it began with Anne adopting a typically male role of being physically threatening/abusive because she resents being attracted to Max.  Then, Max is vilified as a scheming whore when she seduces Anne out of self-preservation (with a healthy dose of gratitude).  Ugh!

6 hours ago, Kathemy said:

Ehm, okay... Let's check what Jack actually said, then?

Max: "You hit the governor right when he was at his weakest. And at what result?"

Jack: "What result? That result was because of your goddamn betrayal! Just now, that man and several others wondered aloud whether the smartest thing to do wouldn't be killing you and throwing you in the sea rather than giving you another opportunity to fuck us!"

So. Is he talking about Max double-crossing Jack, or Anne? No. So, what is he talking about? The sinking of the pirate fleet, anyone? How will you spin that not to be a betrayal?

Bottom line, Max screwed every single pirate in Nassau over. That's not open to debate, it's cold hard fact.

1) The conversation that @Neurochick and I have been having relates to what Jack actually said earlier in the episode, when Max first comes to the beach:

Quote

“I betrayed you, Jack.  Tried to trade your life for my own personal gain.  Lied to Anne to her face about it.  Please, Jack, beg of you, is there any way you can forgive me?”  That’s the general sense I had of what I might hear come from your mouth were I ever this close to you again.

I have no patience for this self-entitled whining and am glad that Max immediately shut him down.  Even allowing for the fact that he and Anne wouldn't know that Max did not lie to them about Jack being released unharmed, JACK is the one who created the situation by lying to and trying to best the Governor.  His obsession with being famous and his arrogance led him to play a dangerous game that he eventually lost, with Vane paying the ultimate price for it.  That's in addition to the fact that their relationship began with him trading her mental and physical well-being for his own personal gain.

 

2)  Regarding the later conversation, a double-cross or betrayal requires someone to be on your side.  For example, Featherstone and Idelle working for Max but secretly (so they think) aiding the pirates is an actual betrayal.  Max intercepting the message about the ships is not a betrayal because she is not on the pirates' side (and they have never been on hers).*  Did her action screw the pirates over?  Sure, just as their invasion took everything that she had amassed.  Since her ascendancy, Max has used her wealth/power to stabilize Nassau; like Varys on GOT, she has been on the side of the realm, not completely aligned with either faction.  So, I have no problem with the pirates seeing Max as an enemy, but I call BS on Jack's entitled butthurt attitude and melodramatic cries of betrayal.  No spin needed.

* It occurs to me that the only pirate who has ever really been on Max's side was Silver, the one who told Eleanor that she needed to stop making decisions based on what Max does!

Edited by netlyon2
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I wonder if Max is going to get Mary Read's story.

 

...being arrested along with Jack and Anne, but escaping the noose by claiming (whether or true or not) to be pregnant. Mary Read died of an illness while imprisoned (or possibly died during childbirth), but I could see the show having Max ride off into the sunset with Anne.

It wouldn't exactly be a happy ending, since she still loses everything in Nassau and gets no share of the treasure, but it would be a better fate than Jack is going to get.

Edited by Scaeva
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I always felt Eleanor was dead woman walking after she had Vane killed.  However, it surprised me that she died now and not at the end of the series.

Madi is not dead. Lalalalalala...no  body, no dead.

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Damn.  That was brutal.  But add me to the crowd that says no body = no death.  I'm still holding out hope for Madi.

Now, where is Billy?  Ben Gunn set him free but I didn't see him on a ship.  That's a loose thread that needs to be cleared up.

In the interest of full disclosure, I've never been a fan of Max but tonight when she was the ONLY one willing to leave the safety of the fort to go looking for Eleanor I had to give her props.  That look of distain she gave to that bunch of sorry-ass men was epic.  I also rather enjoyed her shouting match with Jack.  I like that he gave it to her with both barrels and and rather enjoyed that she gave as good as she got.  There's a lotta water under that bridge.  As for this plan of going to Eleanor's grandfather for aid -- that seems WILDLY far-fetched.  Eleanor wasn't sure SHE could get him to give aid.  How on earth are Jack and Max going to do it?  How will they even get in the front door?  That'll be interesting.

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Max finally said it... civilization has been winning for 10,000 years. Why do the pirates think they will fare any differently?

Found this episode sort of boring, I think because the pirates were running in place. 

Again, all season we are watching our characters and their dreams die, one by one. Because... civilization. 

Also, anyone find it weird that the soldier who ended up killing Eleanor is the only one who arrives on the scene originally with no hat and flowing locks? 

Edited by Ottis
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I have a thought: Billy rescued Madi.

Billy gets freed by Ben Gunn, and naturally he knows where Miranda's cottage is so he heads there for supplies. He finds the place under attack/on fire and pulls the women out (this is why Eleanor was clear of the house) and takes Madi hostage, knowing it's the perfect way to get back at Silver for his perceived betrayal. Granted, this doesn't explain why Eleanor didn't tell Flint this, but perhaps her words: "I tried to save her" were referring to an attempt to get her free of Billy rather than the fire. 

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I love the idea (above) that Billy rescued Madi but . . . Billy was in pretty bad shape when Ben Gunn set him free.  I think he'd be hard pressed to drag his beaten-nearly-to-death self into a hiding place on the grounds of that plantation, much less make a mad dash across the island to Miranda's house and then drag two unconscious women out of a fire.  But if that turns out to be true I will cheerfully suspend disbelief and accept it.

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4 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

I love the idea (above) that Billy rescued Madi but . . . Billy was in pretty bad shape when Ben Gunn set him free.  I think he'd be hard pressed to drag his beaten-nearly-to-death self into a hiding place on the grounds of that plantation, much less make a mad dash across the island to Miranda's house and then drag two unconscious women out of a fire.  But if that turns out to be true I will cheerfully suspend disbelief and accept it.

The synopsis for the next episode states that  

Spoiler

Billy finds a survivor. 

It could have nothing to do with Madi, but who else could this be? Anyone who'd be significant to him and the overall story has presumably made it safely off the island except her. 

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Eleanor died like she lived - fighting for her life.  She gave as good as she got; I have no problem with that.  It was a brutal and believable fight too - no superwoman stuff, she took advantage of what was at hand.  It's also possible that she dragged Madi out (she tells Flint "I tried to save Madi").  I'm going with Madi's not dead; I don't think Madi would leave Eleanor to die on her own, so either Eleanor dragged an unconscious Madi out and then Madi was found by someone who thought Eleanor was dead, or someone found them both in the house, took Madi and Eleanor dragged herself out (we see definite drag marks when getting the eye in the sky view when Rogers is holding her).  Though why someone would go into a burning house in this situation, I don't know. 

I do wish we had gotten more Madi/Eleanor scenes.   It was nice of Flint to tell a dying Eleanor that Rogers wasn't with the Spanish.  Her disbelief in the beginning that he was with them was surprising to me; she just couldn't believe he would have his own way of doing things.  Eleanor, you always did better for yourself when you didn't attach yourself to a man. 

I am very curious as to what Max's plan is with Eleanor's grandfather - why should he listen to her?  I really enjoyed Max's smackdown of Jack (and I like Jack; he's just not a leader like Flint or Silver).   I get Jack being angry with Max, but she's always just tried to survive with minimal loss of life and really, when no one has stood up for her - Max sees it so clearly when she says "we've sacrificed so much with nothing to show for it".   Did Max learn something from Eleanor about allying with Eleanor's grandfather and using "civilization" to undermine Rogers some how?   If Eleanor gave Max some info or what have you to enable her to get through to Guthrie...Max is smart enough to get it done.  

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Oh this show!

Bye Eleanor.  I tried to feel bad for how she went out (because of course all men near death can only think of trying to rape any women they come across).  But despite that aspect, she's had this shit coming since the beginning of show.  I loved Eleanor for her drive to be an independent woman in charge, but she's made so many shitty decisions and so many of these decisions were based on the men she claimed were trying to ride the coattails of her rise to power.  And all the while she was fucking over everybody else that she claimed she was trying to help or love, and refusing to admit that she was in fact, fucking them over. 

And I definitely don't feel bad for Rodgers cause that's what happens when you give people free reign to destroy and pillage a place you're supposed to be in charge of and "restoring" a sense of civility.  If that's the civilization he's promising.......

Nice to see the pirates and the slaves finally coming together and that word has spread and prompted others to join them.  I was worried about them going back to the Maroon island without Madi because we know the Queen Mom don't give a shit about their revolution.  

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It was hard seeing Eleanor go out like that, but it was a long time coming and Rogers got what he deserved in her death.

Rogers will probably find a way to blame the Pirates for her death.  The guy is an arrogant piece of shit.  If he dies, i hope it is slow and painful.

I won't miss Eleanor.  It was nice of Flint to tell her that Rogers wasn't involved with the attack on the island.  Nothing could be gained by telling her the truth, since she was about to die.

I wonder what happened to Billy?  Last I saw of him, was when he was let loose.  Did he make it to the ship?  Is he still on the island?. 

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15 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Eleanor did go down like a badass, and she killed that fucker too.

It was an effective deployment of Chekhov's Lamp Oil and Fireplace Fire! 

I'll admit, my first thought was that E & Madi would escape, and that the kick/knife wound to her stomach would mean only miscarriage for Eleanor. I didn't see her bleeding out until she did.

I really was on the edge of my seat throughout the various battles, which isn't something generally true for me.

Julius's crack that pirates have notoriously shifting allegiances made me bark with laughter; it's the thing I love best about this show -- how people switch sides on the reg! 

I finally noticed that Long John Silver has fully abandoned Cook John Silver's animated manner of speaking, and adopted the whispery husky growl favored by Vane and Batman. 

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I did not expect Eleanor's faith.  But that was 1 heck of a way out.  A very brutal fight.  I did not think the Spanish soldier was going to rape her though.  Eleanor shot his right shoulder so effectively only had 1 functioning arm, hence trying to finish her by choking (with both hands) on the table.

For 2 seasons I wanted to see Madi's bodyguard in action (that big/fat dude that followed Madi), at the end he was just shown dead? I blame Eleanor for his death.  Had Eleanor and Madi did not have heart to heart talk, he would not have stepped out of the room and got ambushed by that Spanish soldier.

Rodgers won the day but at what price?  The town was burned and pillaged, plus his wife died as the result.  At the end he was as uncivilized as the rest of the pirates

Lol, they should have throw Max overboard when they had the chance.  I fear for Jack's faith now that he followed her.  Pretty sure Max would find a way to survive the series ;)

Hmm pirates and slaves unite was almost as awesome as seeing the latest episode of Star Wars Rebels ;)

When the Spanish Captain said that when the Spanish army was set loose nothing would stop them.  Was this historically true?  I thought they would have more discipline than that?  Can anyone (with history background) prove or disprove this?

Edited by DarkRaichu

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We really are getting close to the end, aren't we? And the closer we get, the more brutal the story is getting.

Oh Eleanor. I always rooted for her, even when she acted like an idiot (which was often) or an asshole (also often), because I felt like she really did have good intentions, and was trying to make her way in a world that was against her. She was often blinded by her privilege and her belief that she was smarter than she thought she actually was, but she was a fighter, even until the end. I was actually alright with her death. I don't think it was about Rogers, even though I certainly blame his dumbass for her death. It sucks that she got killed by some random asshole, but she fought hard, took the guy who killed her out with her, and tried her hardest to save Maddi. I was sad to see her go, but she went down swinging, and that the best I can ask from this show.

Speaking of Maddi, I don't think she's dead at all. No way. No body no death damn it! I'm not sure how she could have survived, but I've seen characters survive worse, so I`ll buy it when she shows up again next week. Poor Silver looked so heartbroken. This just keeps happening to Maddi and Silver. If only they could just text each other, these issues would stop happening!

Say what you will about Flint, the guy really is a natural leader. I loved him immediately taking charge of the Brits, the runaway slaves and the pirates, and everyone just following him on instinct. He just has that kind of quality to him. Its probably the only reason no one has killed him by now.

Also loved Julius pointing out that the pirates are always screwing each other over and switching loyalties, because, yeah, its totally true, In just this episode, we have the whole Jack and Max fight/team up, with a long history of screwing each other over in their history. I don't mind Jack being pissed off at Max, even though he's done worse to her. He yelled at her, but he got over it in like a second, and he seems to be listening to her now. I don't really hold those kinds of things against people for a long time. They ARE pirates after all. Its right there in the title. I knew what I was getting into. The characters all do shitty things to each other over and over, I just root for the ones that are the most interesting or have balanced out their shitty actions with more decent actions the most.

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16 hours ago, Ottis said:

Max finally said it... civilization has been winning for 10,000 years. Why do the pirates think they will fare any differently?

Ding, ding, ding.  Correct, why?  Civilization has the ability to grow and change.  The pirate way of life seemed stagnant to me; steal shit, go back to the island, get fucked up, party.  Lather, rinse repeat.  

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5 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

 Pretty sure Max would find a way to survive the series ;)

Max will absolutely survive the series. I'm sure of it. At this point her death would have little or no emotional impact on other characters and thus zero impact on the overall narrative. 

She's safe, at the very least from death. 

Quote

Ding, ding, ding.  Correct, why?  Civilization has the ability to grow and change.  The pirate way of life seemed stagnant to me; steal shit, go back to the island, get fucked up, party.  Lather, rinse repeat.  

Does it though? Some things appear to change but really doesn't and is just packaged differently. Case and point, the pirate life style though stagnant has survived. There are some in our society that are living this life right now, and are very successful at it until they die or go to jail. They're just not living on an island or sailing on the high seas.  

Edited by Enero

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1 hour ago, Enero said:

Does it though? Some things appear to change but really doesn't and is just packaged differently. Case and point, the pirate life style though stagnant has survived. There are some in our society that are living this life right now, and are very successful at it until they die or go to jail. They're just not living on an island or sailing on the high seas.  

I guess one can argue that technology has changed both civilization and the pirate lifestyle.  And smart criminals can start their own civilization and that means being domestic, putting money away.  Vane couldn't understand why Flint, or any man, would want domesticity; IMO that very domesticity is what keeps any civilization together.  

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Burning, shooting, blowing things up! The last part of the series is going to be bonkers. I have no idea what the plan is with the grandfather, but I hope it's fairly ridiculous and they pull it off. 

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