S12.E14: The Raid

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, according to the BMoL, there's only 10 left... even less now after the raid. ;)

Personally, I think the whole plan of the BMoL was foolish. Even if they had succeeded, it doesn't wipe out vampires everywhere and they can make more, very easily. They keep this up and they might find themselves fighting a war on every monster front, and I don't think they have enough gadgets for that.

You mean Benny, on furlough from Purgatory, right? ;)

Tehre ere only 10 left in the Midwest. Not worldwide.  At least from what I understood.  As far as the power vacuum, didn't they kill every other alpha in Season 7.  I don't recall a power vacuum causing troubles with all other types of monsters.

[DittyDotDot]

30 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I don't think he had any other visions of the Alpha Vamp.

Sorry, I seem to be all over the place today. Anyway, perhaps @catrox14 is referring to Dean's flashbacks in Family Matters--when they go to capture the Alpha Vamp--to his previous connection-flashbacks in Live Free or Twihard? I don't know if those second flashbacks were due to the connection to the Alpha or if Dean was just remembering what he'd seen before now that he was standing in the place where those flashbacks came from? I'm can't remember the scene clearly right now.

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

ETA:  Eli was the vamp in Bloodlust.  At least I had the right species (?)

And Eli was played by.....Ty Olsson who was Benny in s8! (I miss Benny)

11 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, according to the BMoL, there's only 10 left... even less now after the raid. ;)

Personally, I think the whole plan of the BMoL was foolish. Even if they had succeeded, it doesn't wipe out vampires everywhere and they can make more, very easily. They keep this up and they might find themselves fighting a war on every monster front, and I don't think they have enough gadgets for that

Yeah, in the US that might be all that's left. But what about Canada and Mexico? South America?? Alaska!

I'm almost envisioning some idiotic plot where the "Old Men" are actually oligarchs looking to make money selling their gadgets and.that's why they've come to the US. 

[DittyDotDot]

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Tehre ere only 10 left in the Midwest. Not worldwide.  At least from what I understood.

I was making a joke--that apparently didn't play--about the BMoL crappy intel. If you read further, I talk about the worldwide implications to their plan. I think they were foolish to try this myself because now they've kicked over a hornets nest just like Crowley and Cass did in S6. We might see an all out monster war coming in the future.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Anyway, perhaps @catrox14 is referring to Dean's flashbacks in Family Matters--when they go to capture the Alpha Vamp--to his previous connection-flashbacks in Live Free or Twihard? I don't know if those second flashbacks were due to the connection to the Alpha or if Dean was just remembering what he'd seen before now that he was standing in the place where those flashbacks came from? I'm can't remember the scene clearly right now.

THANK YOU! That's it. I was thinking of that scene. Well I guess I'll have to watch that episode to figure out if was a flashback or a new connection thing. 

Whew. I didn't lose my mind altogether! YAY!

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

I was making a joke--that apparently didn't play--about the BMoL crappy intel. If you read further, I talk about the worldwide implications to their plan. I think they were foolish to try this myself because now they've kicked over a hornets nest just like Crowley and Cass did in S6. We might see an all out monster war coming in the future.

I got it.

I'd be down for a monster war in s13.

12 minutes ago, Katy M said:

As far as the power vacuum, didn't they kill every other alpha in Season 7.  I don't recall a power vacuum causing troubles with all other types of monsters.

There wasn't a power vacuum because the Alpha was still alive and he wasn't going to be removed. Now that he's dead, who knows. Other lower level vampires might be waiting in the wings to rebuild.

Oh gods.. I just realized @DittyDotDot that monster war? Is this going to take us back to the 5 monster families in Chicago? Please no.

[Macbeth]

11 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

That makes me so incredibly sad for Dean. Even his own mother can`t love him and it all has to come from him. Amara would have been kinda to take him to a nice afterlife instead of bringing Mary back.

I always thought it was God who brought back his mother as a thank you to Dean for helping him reunite with Amara.  Especially since God creates and Amara destroys. I know I am probably wrong.  What am I missing here?

[Wayward Son]

7 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

I always thought it was God who brought back his mother as a thank you to Dean for helping him reunite with Amara.  Especially since God creates and Amara destroys. I know I am probably wrong.  What am I missing here?

No, it was definitely Amara. During the episode she states 

"Dean, you gave me what I needed most, I want to do the same for you" before fading away. 

I do think it could have been interesting to have something go wrong for the reason you state (she destroys), but the writers seem to have decided Mary is Mary. 

Edited March 4, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

I always thought it was God who brought back his mother as a thank you to Dean for helping him reunite with Amara.  Especially since God creates and Amara destroys. I know I am probably wrong.  What am I missing here?

 

Quote

 

AMARA:

Dean, you gave me what I needed most. I want to do the same for you

 

.And then she melds with Guck and away they go.

So all evidence points toithis being Amara's op not Gucks

[FlickChick]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Oh gods.. I just realized @DittyDotDot that monster war? Is this going to take us back to the 5 monster families in Chicago? Please no.

Well wouldn't that fit right in with Dabb's playbook! I mentioned in another thread that I felt that's exactly what Dabb is trying to recreate with the BMoL and the current storyline. Ugh!

[Macbeth]

Thanks Wayward Son and catrox14 for answering my question.  It is greatly appreciated.  Now I am confused about Amara - but I will take that to the appropriate thread.

[tessathereaper]

9 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Dean and Sam didn't tell Ketch or Mick the plan. The BMoL didn't know they were trying to get Lucifer back in the cage, or that Lucifer was the angel they were trying to exorcise. All they knew was they wanted something to get an angel out of it's meatsuit. Perhaps if they'd told them what they were really up to they could've provided a better gadget? TBH, I can't blame the BMoL--even though I think they're overconfident asshats--for the failure on that one.

Crowley didn't hack their gadget he hacked Rowena's spell. Basically the egg wasn't supposed to put Lucifer back in the cage, it was supposed to get Lucifer out of the president and then Rowena's spell was supposed to send Lucifer back to the cage. Crowley added something to Rowena's bowl that hijacked her spell. He did nothing to the magic egg; the egg itself worked entirely as designed. 

They did have a conversation in the car, but it's never outright stated onscreen that Mary made a deal. The conversation goes from Mary being "awesome" to Sam saying something about the demon blood and Dean realizing Sam knew about that already.

My belief is Sam figured it out even if Dean didn't tell him. Otherwise, I think he's kinda foolish not to have by now.

That is what the dialogue in that scene is saying.  Dean didn't have a chance to get that far...he's telling Sam about what happened, obviously talking up the positives first, then Sam mentions "all so the demon could get into my room and bleed into my mouth" - clearly he realizes this was where Mary made the deal.  If Dean's telling him the story(I assume he told him about the actual "case" off screen, we do come in mid-conversation) - then Dean's told him about what happened to their grandparents, the YED and Sam then reveals he already knows the part about the YED coming in and bleeding into his mouth.  So there is no line of dialogue that says "Mom made a deal with YED" but Sam's actual response to what Dean is saying shows he knows Mary made a deal with YED which is what let him into the house ten years later to bleed into his mouth because he's put what Dean has been telling him and the knowledge he already has, but did not tell Dean, together.

[mertensia]

12 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Maybe Dean and Sam should just give her the full box set of Carver Edlund's books? No better way to catch up. 

There's an awkward conversation. "Hey mom, just read these. They were written by God when he was pretending to be a Prophet. It's our lives after I went to Stanford to borrow Sammy to help me find dad. Ignore the graphic sex scenes."

 

As for the Colt killing Meg's brother, it did but he wasn't the Alpha Vamp, either. 

[catrox14]

And ANOTHER THING.

So many false equivalencies in this episode.

Ketch trying to equate himself with Dean as a killer (NOPE sorry show. Not the same things at all. Dean doesn't get off on torturing human beings )

Sam equating his lie about meeting Mary and going to the BMOLOL vs Dean's literal not lie about going out for a drink. No show. Stop it.  Dean DID got out for a drink and came back only to have Ketch knock on his door with Scotch. (Not the same things at all)

[catrox14]

Speaking of drinking, I really wondered why Dean would trust a drink from SKetch given Sam being drugged, but then I thought, has Sam even told Dean all that happened to him? Could there be some lingering time release drugs or something that might make Sam more malleable, I mean other than Mary the BMOL Recruiter

It's like that whole torture thing is just been brushed off. I wondered if the BMOL used some "enhanced recruiting techniques" with Mary. Like I dunno slipping her a mickey in a coffee cup at a diner. I don't care what Mick McPerpetualBeard and Mr. Sketch (I'm gonna call him Sketch) said about Lady TheLiteralWorst being "rogue" etc, I think they would do that but just NOT Mick personally because he's a paper pusher.  Mr. Sketch would do it though. 

Edited March 5, 2017 by catrox14

[mertensia]

32 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

Ketch trying to equate himself with Dean as a killer (NOPE sorry show. Not the same things at all. Dean doesn't get off on torturing human beings )

Having a character tell Dean they are just like him- a killing machine- does not mean the show  means that.  

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, mertensia said:

Having a character tell Dean they are just like him- a killing machine- does not mean the show  means that.  

In general, I agree. Unfortunately, this is the 2nd time within 3 episodes that a major supporting character has said this to Dean. In the case of Rowena,  Dean may or may not remember what she said, but the audience heard it. And now Mr. Sketch. And yes it could be setting up the audience to reject this and acknowledge Dean is not a killer but my skeptical side is less sure. BuckLemming have said that Dean has being a killer in his DNA, so that kind of is the show saying it.

I'll eat another hat  IF the show does not make this a thing.

[catrox14]

Re the above....Oh hey. Look . It's the official CW SPN Twitter account.

Hmmm...Yeaaaaahhhh...

[companionenvy]

We did have Dean very clearly NOT going along with torturing the vamp, though, and looking very uncomfortable with Ketch doing it. So, I don't think the show wants us to see them as equivalent.

I do think that Dean would be capable of devolving into a kind of bloodthirsty joy in the kill if he gave into his worst impulses, and not just in the sense of, "well, everyone has darkness in them." Obviously, Dean with the MOC wasn't quite Dean, and Dean the hell-torturer was Dean under unendurable duress, but I think both of those situations suggest something about Dean's darkest potential. I don't think the same is true of every hunter; for instance, I wouldn't say the same about Sam, because Sam burns cold while Dean burns hot -- which, I think, actually makes Sam capable of crossing lines Dean won't, but also would allow Dean to more easily fall into the Gordon Walker role. 

So, I don't think the show wants us to see Ketch as right, but I think Ketch is picking up on something that is enough a part of Dean that it can make Dean feel legitimately uncomfortable.

I don't think, though, that Ketch is at all correct in suggesting Dean needs to kill monsters as a release that prevents him from taking out his bloodlust on innocents. Earlier in the show, Dean might have sometimes had issues with excessively black and white, "them and us" thinking He was NEVER, except, IIRC, under the influence of the mark, willing to kill an ordinary human under pretty much any circumstance. In "Jus in Bello," Sam is the one who is OK with sacrificing the virgin, for instance. Dean won't do it even though she volunteers. Dean was even disturbed enough at Sam's cold killing of the awful but still human Jake that he wondered briefly if Sam had been brought back wrong. 

[mertensia]

The BMoL are very very classist, both in the traditional sense and in looking down on hunters. Blue collar hunters like the Winchesters? Might as well be the killer gorillas from Congo as far as they're concerned. So they (including Ketch) are predisposed to seeing a facet of Dean and making it his entire  personality. And Dean caught that and he's going to use it against them. 

[DittyDotDot]

8 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

That is what the dialogue in that scene is saying.  Dean didn't have a chance to get that far...he's telling Sam about what happened, obviously talking up the positives first, then Sam mentions "all so the demon could get into my room and bleed into my mouth" - clearly he realizes this was where Mary made the deal.  If Dean's telling him the story(I assume he told him about the actual "case" off screen, we do come in mid-conversation) - then Dean's told him about what happened to their grandparents, the YED and Sam then reveals he already knows the part about the YED coming in and bleeding into his mouth.  So there is no line of dialogue that says "Mom made a deal with YED" but Sam's actual response to what Dean is saying shows he knows Mary made a deal with YED which is what let him into the house ten years later to bleed into his mouth because he's put what Dean has been telling him and the knowledge he already has, but did not tell Dean, together.

Apparently I'm not being very clear. Yes, as I said, I believe Sam knows. I believe it was conveyed in the conversation in Metamorphosis that Sam is aware of all the details. However, there is a belief out there--dig back through threads you'll see the conversation in quite a few places, not to mention the folks in this thread who say it's unclear--that Sam doesn't know because it was never stated onscreen. So, it's left up to each person to interpret what they think Sam knows. 

TO BE CLEAR: I THINK SAM DOES KNOW MARY MADE A DEAL WITH YELLOW EYES.  

4 hours ago, companionenvy said:

So, I don't think the show wants us to see Ketch as right, but I think Ketch is picking up on something that is enough a part of Dean that it can make Dean feel legitimately uncomfortable.

I think the show is doing it's standard of the monsters telling the Winchesters one thing and then the Winchesters will turn around and show them the opposite. I don't think we're supposed to see that Ketch is right and Dean is a killer, but we're supposed to see the psychopath may not have the right end of the stick here.

[MysteryGuest]

I hate the show comparing Dean to Ketch.  It's been established that Ketch is a killer for hire.  He will kill innocent people without batting an eye, and seems to enjoy it.  Dean likes the hunt, and has no qualms about killing monsters, but killing people is a whole different thing.  They are nothing alike.  And for a show that seemed really hesitant about portraying Dean as too evil when he was an actual Demon, they don't seem to shy away from insinuating that he's some crazed killer when he's just himself.  I really hate that!

Dean under MOC control, or Dean as full-on demon are totally different things.  I can accept the idea that both of these things brought out a side of him that exists, but I think that side exists in most of us.  Charlie certainly didn't come across as a bloodthirsty killer, but when her light and dark sides were split, Dark Charlie was pretty damn awful.  My point is that any of us under similar circumstances would probably show the same tendencies.  

[SueB]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

And ANOTHER THING.

All I could think of ... was "she's either on a roll or 2/3rds through a bottle" (J/K)
 

IMO, Dean was in charge of that entire conversation.  He brought a fool into his Lion's Den and let him spew.  Don't forget, they have guns strapped to the bottom of that table.  What Dean learned from Ketch:
- They are really desperate to get them on board
- Ketch has a lot of illusions -- he equates himself with Dean, he thinks he's smooth, etc...
- Ketch and Tony have a history
- Ketch's intel failed him again
- Ketch enjoys hurting monsters (i.e. he's not redeemable)
- Hey, that 33 yr old single malt is pretty darn tasty*
* Beyond the Rufus parallel, he could tell the bottle was likely okay because it still had a seal.  Still possible to taint, but improbable.  Also, Dean controlled the glasses and Ketch was drinking from the same bottle.

I do think Dabb & company are PUSHING us this season.  Making us uncomfortable with Mary, the BMoL, and the nephilim.  It's a slow burn versus the large scale of S11.  After the next two episodes, I'm going to summarize the season thus far in the "All Seasons" thread but there are so MANY themes obviously working IMO.  They are both misleading us with text while leading us with subtext.  

I'm finding the writing very subtle and consistent.

ETA: I thought the show was crystal clear: Dean is NOT a person that needs to kill to be happy**, that is a surface reading of him.  Which is what Ketch provided.  That the CW promo monkeys used that is kinda laughable.  
** He 'broke character' in his engagement with Ketch when he stepped in and mercifully dealt with the vampire. 

Edited March 5, 2017 by SueB

[DittyDotDot]

12 minutes ago, SueB said:

IMO, Dean was in charge of that entire conversation.  He brought a fool into his Lion's Den and let him spew.

Exactly. In fact, I'd say both Sam and Dean learned a great deal of useful intel from their separate parts here. Sam learned the BMoL are good at making gadgets, not so good with the planning and implementing. Dean learned they have crappy intel and they rely on a psychopath because they don't have anyone else to do the dirty work. 

15 minutes ago, SueB said:

I'm finding the writing very subtle and consistent.

I don't know about consistent--although it feels far more consistent than it has been for years--but I agree about subtle. 

[shang yiet]

To me, this is an obvious set-up for later when Ketch has his hands bloody and invites Dean to join in only for Dean to make a big speech about how he is not like that at all because he cares about saving people and justice! So take that, Ketch!

[rue721]

37 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I hate the show comparing Dean to Ketch.

Ketch said that Dean was like him (a killer), but the show *showed* that Dean isn't -- when Dean was merciful toward the vampire girl.

32 minutes ago, SueB said:

** He 'broke character' in his engagement with Ketch when he stepped in and mercifully dealt with the vampire.

Yes, I agree.

Sam was playing a ruse with the Alpha when he said he'd abandon Mick to him, and Dean was playing a ruse with Ketch when he went hunting with him. But then both those ruses got revealed (I mean to us, the audience).

That's why I think that everybody being A-OK with the hunter being led off in chains at the end is another misdirect/ruse. The show established very clearly, within the episode, that Sam and Dean were willing to take mercy on Mick and a vampire, so I think odds are pretty good that they'd take mercy on a double-crossing hunter, too. What "take mercy" might mean, I dunno. But I mean, at least merciful to the point of not really believing that it's *good* that he's getting led in chains into the bowels of a BMOL facility, and to probable torture and death at the hands of the psychopaths on the BMOL payroll.

Also, the vamp raid and all that just seemed kind of like a setup to me, similarly to sending Mary in for the Colt felt like a setup. It just has the vibe of a test? It felt like when the Watcher's Council on Buffy decided to send her into a booby trapped mansion when she turned 18, to see if she could take a vampire totally on her own.

So I'm not sure what's going on with the double-crossing hunter. It's possible that he was actually an asset for someone higher up in the BMOL and that he established that "connection" with the Alpha and instigated the raid on "The Old Men's" orders. He might be sitting pretty with Toni back in England now that he's done his job setting up this vampire raid "test," who knows. But then again, that's probably overthinking it for this show. There aren't usually a ton of twists and turns in terms of alliances on SPN.

Anyway, speaking of alliances:  I feel kind of bad for Mary because even if she herself has a ruse going on as well (which my fingers are crossed that she does), I really don't think she's in on whatever is going on with Sam and Dean. Early in the season, the show established that Sam and Dean work together like a well-oiled machine at this point, and Mary was left out of that (and couldn't keep up). I think that's happening again.

Also in terms of Mary, I think that she may be bringing in Sam (and now Dean) as cover, so they can distract or take care of the BMOL while she does whatever she is trying to do (steal their gadgets or intel, or whatever). I say that because that's how she played the "mission" at the YED's cabin, with them unwittingly acting as the distraction and front line while she snuck around and accomplished her own private mission. In any case, I want to believe that she's up to some grander plan than it seems like because, like I said before, I don't like believing that any character is stupid. But time will have to tell!

Edited March 5, 2017 by rue721

[Wynne88]

Quote

Sam equating his lie about meeting Mary and going to the BMOLOL . . .

For what it's worth, he didn't lie - his note said something along the lines of 'Gone out, be back'.  If he had said he was going somewhere other than to Mary and the BMOLOL, it would have been a definite lie.  This was just very nonspecific.

Do you reckon Sam told Dean about the Colt?  And who has it now?

[ILoveReading]

I rewatched Asa Fox and Regarding Dean recently and noticed:

In Asa Fox, in the scene where they're looking over Asa's things and Dean says that there is no better way to go then dying on the job, Sam asks if Dean believes that and when Dean says "you don't".  Sam remains silent and says they should get back.   Then in Regarding Dean when he's talking about how cool the job is, Sam says something like if you like crappy food and motels. 

I wonder if the writers were laying groundwork for Sam to join. 

With regards to Dean being uncomfortable about torture, I wonder how much of that was the writers and how much of that was Jensen.  Dean's hesistation before descending the steps to hell were adlibbed by Jensen.  So was that the authorial intent or Jensen elevating the writing?

Hopefully it will be something that will come up in the future.

[rue721]

11 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

With regards to Dean being uncomfortable about torture, I wonder how much of that was the writers and how much of that was Jensen.  Dean's hesistation before descending the steps to hell were adlibbed by Jensen.  So was that the authorial intent or Jensen elevating the writing?

In this case, I think it's authorial intent. It was a pretty big plot point in this episode that Dean wasn't OK with Ketch tormenting the vampire girl. That was expressed through the dialogue, etc, too, not just through Jensen's acting. IIRC, last episode, Dean also told Mary that he had a problem with her joining with the BMOL because of what Toni had done to Sam. I think the show has tried to make it clear (beyond just giving us cues from the acting) that Dean is not on board with the torture that the BMOL agents dish out -- not to Sam, and not even to monsters like the vampire. I think there will probably be a payoff to that plot point later on.

[Boopsahoy]

8 hours ago, companionenvy said:

We did have Dean very clearly NOT going along with torturing the vamp, though, and looking very uncomfortable with Ketch doing it. So, I don't think the show wants us to see them as equivalent.

I agree and if I am wrong I will be pissed.

[catrox14]

Re: The "KillerInside!Dean" theme that's resurfacing. I HOPE I AM WRONG. I WILL EAT ALL THE HATS if I'm wrong, gladly.

My concerns are not just born of the scene with Dean and Ketch. If it was ONLY that scene I would be more inclined that this will be a subversion of the KillerInside!Dean thing.

(Rowena and Dean in Regarding Dean. "You're a killer, Dean Winchester" to Dean, who was losing his memory, and was aghast to think he had killed anyone. But "It was for the greater good" and baggage free Dean says "As if that makes it any better".)

Dean's behavior and attitude changed dramatically after his fight with Mary. It's been a few days since Dean tells Mary off and tells her to leave the bunker. After the fight scene wherein Dean is wearing the beige and brown plaid shirt, he's now wearing the dark red Carhartt shirt (the Murder shirt  as we lovingly call it). Since the advent of the Mark of Cain, he's worn it when he's gone down a dark path OR is fighting himself to NOT go down that path. (Reichenbach, Soul Survivor, Executioner's Song, Inside Man, Brother's Keeper)

Anyway so Dean is wearing the Murder Shirt and he's in a foul mood. He's angry and grumpy and says he wants to hit things and drink all the things essentially.
 

Quote

Dean: [ Descending footsteps ] Dead guy in Akron.
Body found two days ago.
Throat ripped out, ear-to-ear.
Same: Well, good morning to you, too.
Read it.
Sam: [ Chuckles ] [ Sighs, muttering ] The guy was a-a known drug dealer with enemies.
His throat wasn't ripped out.
It was slit with a knife.
I'm not really sure this is our kind of thing.
Dean: We don't know that.
His blood could've been drained.
Dean: It could've been? You know what? You find us a case.
'Cause I need to hit something.
Now.
Sam; You wanna talk about it? Not really.
Dean: What was she thinkin', man? I don't know.
Sam: Maybe we should ask her.
Dean: What?

Sam:Look I-I am pissed and -- and frustrated and confused, too. But we've frozen her out for days.
Dean: She lied to us, Sam. I know. For months.
Sam: I know, but it's Mom! I mean, whatever she was doing, she must've had a good reason.
Dean: A good reason? A good reason for working with those ass clowns?!

Sam: Look, I hear you, all right? But -- but at the end of the day, she's family.
We owe it to her to at least --

Dean: All right, you know what? Screw it. I need a drink. You [ Sighs heavily ] No, I need drinks. Plural.
[ Scoffs ] And this whole peacemaker shtick that you've been running, first with Cass, now with Mom, it's getting old, man.
Dean: What's that supposed to mean? You're always playing the middle, Sam.
For once, why don't you pick a side? 

 

Dean is pissed off and leaves.  Dean isn't seen again until he returns to the bunker.** It's implied that Dean went out to drink and IMO his mood here implies that happened. He sees Sam's note and then starts looking everywhere for more alcohol. He's pissed that the decanter is empty and then he hears the knock on the door. He opens the door and it's Ketch. Immediately Dean is irritated and on guard. He tries to shut the door in Ketch's face and then Ketch grabs the doorknob. Dean goes on high alert and IMO has that deadly look he gets when he's about to fuck someone up and then he notices Ketch's tattoo. At that point, I figured Dean would further tell him to step off but then Ketch offers up the Scotch.

IMO, if the show was intending for this to remain solely a Dean improvisational intel gathering op on Ketch, I don't think Jensen would have played that  moment when Ketch offered him the scotch the way he did.  At first it seemed like a more comedic moment, but the camera lingered on Dean and IMO Jensen played it more serious than comedic. IMO, he played that moment like Dean was an alcoholic struggling to not accept the offer of Scotch after he had been feverishly searching for hard  liquor in his own home. He didn't know Ketch was going to show up so he clearly was in a state to want all the alcohol. I dunno. I considered that he was "acting" for Ketch but I don't see what that would gain for him. It was a moment of weakness for Dean IMO. Then when Dean and Ketch were facing off at the MoL table he was totally on guard, surly and side-eying Ketch hard. So why drop that mask when he sees the alcohol just to resume it when they are sharing the bottle. I dunno.

4 hours ago, SueB said:

* Beyond the Rufus parallel, he could tell the bottle was likely okay because it still had a seal.  Still possible to taint, but improbable.  Also, Dean controlled the glasses and Ketch was drinking from the same bottle.

That tattoo means something. What if he's an ancient killer and the tattoo is magic that keeps him from dying? Didn't someone do some research early in the season and the name Mr. Ketch was an executioner from the Middle Ages or something.

I don't think he's THAT Mr. Ketch but he could be unkillable due to magic. Think of Rowena's spell that kept her alive and what Magnus did with magic and his fortress. Ketch could have injected the bottle with something from which he is protected.

** I do have one question about this. If Dean did leave to go and find alcohol, why is he still looking to drink more? He didn't go out and bring alcohol back with him. Did Dean leave and then decide not to drink? Did he shuffle off to Donnie's bar to hustle pool again and didn't drink? Did he drink and that just wasn't enough? Did he drink and drive?? Was he up to something on DL with the BMoL himself?

[rue721]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Did he shuffle off to Donnie's bar to hustle pool again and didn't drink? Did he drink and that just wasn't enough? Did he drink and drive?? Was he up to something on DL with the BMoL himself?

I figured he went to the bar and had a few drinks, but then the bar closed (or he got bored sitting there or whatever), so he came home to have his last drink or two. But then, irritatingly, it turned out he had run dry.

Considering that he'll keep beers in the cooler in the car and pop them open on the road, I just assumed that he did drink and drive, but who knows. He could have gotten a Lyft or something ;) Or maybe he took the bus.

LOL Actually, now that I think about it, maybe he had to head back home a little early (before the bar's closing time) because he had to catch the last bus back ;)

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, he played that moment like Dean was an alcoholic struggling to not accept the offer of Scotch after he had been feverishly searching for hard  liquor in his own home. He didn't know Ketch was going to show up so he clearly was in a state to want all the alcohol. I dunno. I considered that he was "acting" for Ketch but I don't see what that would gain for him. It was a moment of weakness for Dean IMO. Then when Dean and Ketch were facing off at the MoL table he was totally on guard, surly and side-eying Ketch hard. So why drop that mask when he sees the alcohol just to resume it when they are sharing the bottle. I dunno.

I think his change of demeanor when seeing the bottle could have been the light bulb going off over his head that this could be an opportunity for him to get more info on/from Ketch. Alcohol does loosen the tongue. Maybe it occurred to Dean that it could loosen Ketch's, and that he could make use of that.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I think his change of demeanor when seeing the bottle could have been the light bulb going off over his head that this could be an opportunity for him to get more info on/from Ketch. Alcohol does loosen the tongue. Maybe it occurred to Dean that it could loosen Ketch's, and that he could make use of that.

That's what I thought but honestly, I did not get that from Jensen's performance. I thought he played it pretty straight that Dean really wanted that Scotch.  YMMV.

From my perspective this is building another dark!Dean narrative.

[rue721]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I thought he played it pretty straight that Dean really wanted that Scotch.  YMMV.

I think that Dean's behavior/actions afterward showed that his focus was on Ketch and not the scotch though, too. He could have just sat there drinking with him until the scotch was gone (and even been deluding himself that he was just intel gathering while doing it, too) -- but he put aside the drinking to go hunting with him instead. I don't think they finished the bottle or even made much headway. Ultimately they had what, like half a drink together? It seemed like Dean wasn't acting especially thirsty or focused on the scotch once Ketch was in the door, his focus seemed to be more on seeing Ketch at work. But I did only watch the episode the one time, so maybe I just didn't notice.

[Aeryn13]

The script probably had a direction like "Dean sees the Scotch and lets Ketch in", simply to go from point A to point B. Which was that they wanted a dialogue scene with Ketch. I`d say it was a piece of shallow writing. 

[ILoveReading]

52 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

** I do have one question about this. If Dean did leave to go and find alcohol, why is he still looking to drink more? He didn't go out and bring alcohol back with him. Did Dean leave and then decide not to drink? Did he shuffle off to Donnie's bar to hustle pool again and didn't drink? Did he drink and that just wasn't enough? Did he drink and drive?? Was he up to something on DL with the BMoL himself?

On a scale of 1-10 Dean's agitation level was probably about a 25.  When he's in that state its hard for him to sit still.  I figure he went to a bar for some drinks but it may be the atmosphere was only making things worse.  What I mean is that sometimes when your angry or irritated any little thing can make things worse.  So the music, bottles clanging, pool balls clanging against each other can be a trigger.   If Dean wanted to drink himself into oblivion, ironically, the bar might not be the best place just due to how crowded and noisy they can be. (Hopefully, that makes sense).

Given Dean's mental state, I doubt strongly doubt Sam poured the booze out.  I think Dean drank it. 

Him going for the hard stuff, is as much as sign that he's struggling.  

As for the Dean wanting the scotch,   I think the show was trying pay homage to the Rufus scene more than anything.  Rufus wanted nothing to do with Dean until he pulled out the scotch. But I do think Dean's inital reaction was wanting a glass.    Same with the hunt.  Dean's decisions are mostly impulsive.  So if he wanted the scotch, and he went on the hunt just due to the need to "hit something" its something I can see Dean doing.  But Dean is very observant, so while "fact finding" might not have been his motivation, its what he ended up doing.  He noticed the tattoo almost immediately so its possible that he shifted gears pretty quick. 

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

From my perspective this is building another dark!Dean narrative.

I've enjoyed the other dark Dean storylines so I could get on board with this.  I just don't want mopey/depressed Dean

Does anyone remember the last episode we saw Dean drinking he hard stuff?

Edited March 5, 2017 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I think that Dean's behavior/actions afterward showed that his focus was on Ketch and not the scotch though, too. He could have just sat there drinking with him until the scotch was gone (and even been deluding himself that he was just intel gathering while doing it, too) -- but he put aside the drinking to go hunting with him instead. I don't think they finished the bottle or even made much headway. Ultimately they had what, like half a drink together? It seemed like Dean wasn't acting especially thirsty or focused on the scotch once Ketch was in the door, his focus seemed to be more on seeing Ketch at work. But I did only watch the episode the one time, so maybe I just didn't notice.

I don't really get what you're saying here. I didn't say Dean's ONLY goal was to get that bottle of Scotch. And that drinking it was all he wanted. Dean is a functional alcoholic as he's said himself. He can drink and do his job. It's never stopped him before.

As I've said before, Dean is a master of improvisation. I think he wanted to get hammered hence the searching for the hard liquor, didn't want Ketch in the bunker, but decided to accept the Scotch and then as they were drinking gathered intel.

I absolutely agree that when Dean starts searching for the hard stuff like this he's not in a good place.

I don't mind dark!Dean as long the show doesn't keep beating the Killer!Dean as being who Dean really is inside thing that they trot out every so often.

Edited March 5, 2017 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

37 minutes ago, rue721 said:

LOL Actually, now that I think about it, maybe he had to head back home a little early (before the bar's closing time) because he had to catch the last bus back ;)

I want to see this!! ;)

[rue721]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't really get what you're saying here. I didn't say Dean's ONLY goal was to get that bottle of Scotch. And that drinking it was all he wanted. Dean is a functional alcoholic as he's said himself. He can drink and do his job. It's never stopped him before.

My point is that I think that if that scene/interaction were about Dean falling off the wagon, he would not have gotten up from the table without finishing the bottle. Or at least he would have kept drinking until he couldn't drink anymore. He would have taken the rest of the alcohol with him. SOMETHING. He wouldn't have just left his half-full glass and practically the whole bottle sitting there ignored when he left for the hunt.

Edited March 5, 2017 by rue721

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

The script probably had a direction like "Dean sees the Scotch and lets Ketch in", simply to go from point A to point B. Which was that they wanted a dialogue scene with Ketch. I`d say it was a piece of shallow writing. 

I agree it was a shallow piece of writing and Jensen peppered something else into the scene.  Maybe he thought he was going for a comedic moment with "Oh look a pretty bottle of scotch" but it played more serious. 

I never once considered it to be a Rufus call back. I guess that's my failure as a viewer. 

[7kstar]

For me this is the fun thing about the show and not tell.  It gives many possible outcomes.  IA Dean wanted a drink.  To me it's clear he came back from going out and didn't get plastered.  He wanted a drink.  Here comes Ketch with a drink.  Once Ketch showed up, things changed.

Now he's playing with Ketch.  Ketch is arrogant and believes he knows who the Winchesters are.  But the BMOL are sloppy and don't really know as much as they THINK they do.  Hence we have the set up to provide the opportunity for Ketch and Dean to work together.  Dean has his own agenda.  I don't believe he is blindly following anyone.  Mary on the other-hand...well that's a different story.

[catrox14]

20 minutes ago, rue721 said:

My point is that I think that if that scene/interaction were about Dean falling off the wagon, he would not have gotten up from the table without finishing the bottle. Or at least he would have kept drinking until he couldn't drink anymore. He would have taken the rest of the alcohol with him. SOMETHING. He wouldn't have just left his half-full glass and practically the whole bottle sitting there ignored when he left for the hunt.

I didn't say the scene was about Dean falling off the wagon. That's a misreading of what I'm saying.

I think Dean was really wanting some hard liquor. And the enemy shows up with it. Dean was like shit. I want this scotch but I don't want it from this asshole, but I really want a drink" but IMO Jensen played a deeper thing there but not "Leaving Las Vegas" stuff. 

I really don't know how that became "Dean would be unable to stop drinking it and not go on a hunt".

Dean's always been shown to be able to drink a lot and still hunt. It doesn't dull his Hunter side. Even if he drank half the bottle he would still go hunting.

Edited March 5, 2017 by catrox14

[ILoveReading]

Once thing else I've noticed is after Dean hands the computer to Sam, and says he doesn't want to talk about Mary, he looks so tired.  It made me wonder if Dean's not sleeping. 

[Geordiegirl1967]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

he looks so tired.  It made me wonder if Dean's not sleeping

Or Jensen isn't. Baby twins are a killer! 

[catrox14]

Just for fun, I went back to see how much was left in the bottle. It was about half. For all we know, Dean grabbed the bottle and put in the Impala. I don't think he did.

My point wasn't that the scene was about Dean falling off the wagon, but that the show is showing Dean going down a path we've seen before. Dean couldn't really fall off the wagon anyway since IMO he's never been ON the wagon in the first place(other than a year in Purgatory but his hair didn't grown their either so ....different realm different needs?)

3 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Or Jensen isn't. Baby twins are a killer! 

Makeup takes care of that tired look.

IMO, if the show didn't want Dean to look tired...he wouldn't look tired.

8 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Once thing else I've noticed is after Dean hands the computer to Sam, and says he doesn't want to talk about Mary, he looks so tired.  It made me wonder if Dean's not sleeping. 

I think it's all intentional.

[rue721]

34 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I didn't say the scene was about Dean falling off the wagon. That's a misreading of what I'm saying.

I think Dean was really wanting some hard liquor. And the enemy shows up with it. Dean was like shit. I want this scotch but I don't want it from this asshole, but I really want a drink" but IMO.

This is where I got the idea that you were talking about Dean falling off the wagon:

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, he played that moment like Dean was an alcoholic struggling to not accept the offer of Scotch after he had been feverishly searching for hard  liquor in his own home.

I'm not seeing the difference between "Dean was an alcoholic struggling to not accept the offer of Scotch" and Dean was struggling not to fall off the wagon.

To me, he didn't seem like he was behaving like an alcoholic. After all, he walked away from the scotch later. He seemed pretty indifferent to it throughout the scenes between him and Ketch in the bunker, and then he left it behind, ignored, when they left for the hunt. If wanting a taste of Ketch's scotch was a big factor in Dean deciding to let him in, wouldn't he have been more interested in the scotch (or at least drunk more of it) once he actually had access? IMO throughout all his scenes with Ketch, Dean instead seemed perfectly in control and focused on Ketch himself.

I can't tell you what you saw on Jensen's face in that scene, but I'm saying that the rest of the narrative doesn't -- IMO -- support that Dean was meant to be struggling with alcoholism there.

It is possible that Jensen tried to play it as kind of a comedic moment, like it was ironic that Dean wanted a drink and THIS is how he was going to get it [sad trombone].

IMO the show could generally have hung more of a lantern on that moment of Dean deciding to let in Ketch, though, because before reading other people's comments, I didn't even think about Dean showing up to butter up Rufus with his blue label -- and in retrospect, not only might the show have been trying to remind us of that, but it might have been trying to communicate that *Dean* was meant to be reminded of it right then as well. That might have been what made him decide to play the interaction with Ketch how he did.

Funny that they had that callback and then Rufus got brought up in conversation at the BMOL HQ later, when the double-crossing hunter showed up. Wonder what that's about.

Quote

I really don't know how that became "Dean would be unable to stop drinking it and not go on a hunt". 

I said just in the paragraph you're referring to that if Dean really wanted that scotch, he could/would have *taken it with him* when he left for the hunt.

My point is basically that even though Dean said he wanted to have some drinks and hit/kill some stuff, when it came down to it, he was in control. He left off drinking even though there was a bunch of scotch left in the bottle, and he didn't beat the vampires to a pulp on the hunt (like Ketch did), either. So it seemed to me that not only was he not going down a dark road, the show was actively trying to convey that he wasn't going down a dark road.

Edited March 5, 2017 by rue721

[SueB]

@catrox14 AmyInSydney's review has a bit of a discussion about Dean's progress this year in her review.  She also was in attendance at VegasCon and got this insight from Jensen:
 

Quote

He didn’t think he’d be able to play Dean for as long as he has if the character had not grown through the seasons. He said that one of the areas that he found the most interesting in Dean’s growth is his take on supernatural creatures. He talked about how in the beginning Dean was very black and white in his approach to hunting and to the creatures he hunted, but through the years, through his experiences, he’s come to understand that it’s not all black and white, that just because something is a monster, doesn’t necessarily mean it’s evil and has to die. He talked about how the black and white for Dean is now a very grey area and he thinks that’s an important change in Dean and something that he personally finds very interesting and interesting to portray.

emphasis mine: I think the detail regarding grey versus black and white suggests that Dean is not devolving into bad behaviors. JMO YMMV. 

Here's a link to Amy's review.  Warning, in the COMMENTS section of her review, there's a spoiler for EP16.  SweetOnDean Review

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I'm not seeing the difference between "Dean was an alcoholic struggling to not accept the offer of Scotch" and Dean was struggling not to fall off the wagon.

I think there is a difference. One can be a functional alcoholic and leave the bottle behind to accomplish their work which Dean either did or didn't do. (TMI time, my dad was a functional alcoholic. No one at his job had a clue he was an alcoholic)

Anyway I'm speaking specifically of how Jensen played that moment. I don't think it's incidental that Ketch plied him with scotch. I don't think it's incidental that Jensen made that acting choice. I think Jensen made that choice for a reason, I'm not sure what that reason is just yet. There is a space between a humorous thing like Rufus and  "Nicholas Cage drinking himself to death".  There is a spectrum for how much Dean drinks, why, and what he drinks. I think it's there to show that Dean is not in a good place and to make the audience wonder if he is going to return to 'Killer!Dean' like we saw in s9 and s10 given the mirror/comparison being drawn with Ketch. 

[MysteryGuest]

31 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think it's there to show that Dean is not in a good place and to make the audience wonder if he is going to return to 'Killer!Dean' like we saw in s9 and s10 given the mirror/comparison being drawn with Ketch. 

I'm going to hope they don't go there.  Mainly because it's bullshit.  With the MOC, and as a demon, then yes, Dean had some issues controlling his baser instincts, but I don't think he's having those issues now.  

He was pissed off about Mary, and wanted to go on a hunt to get rid of his frustration.  When there was nothing to hunt, and after his fight with Sam, he said fuck it and went out to get drunk.  But he wasn't drunk when he got back, and his tone while calling out Sam's name seemed pretty conciliatory to me.  I personally don't think he was gone all that long, and had Sam been there, I'm betting he would have apologized to him for going after him the way he did.  But since Sam wasn't there, and he'd left some vague note, I think Dean just decided to finish his original plan of getting drunk.  

Unfortunately, with no booze in the house, that wasn't going to happen.  Along comes Ketch with his fancy bottle of Scotch, and the rest is history.  He would let him in and drink his liquor, but he didn't have to talk to him.  It wasn't until Ketch mentioned the vampires that Dean really showed any interest in what the man had to say.  And he chose the hunt over the booze, which is what he wanted in the first place.

I'm not sure I'd call him an actual alcoholic at this point, functional or otherwise.  He likes to drink and get drunk, but I don't think they've shown that he "has" to drink, and to me, that's a big difference.  But as with everything else on this show, that can change at any moment.

[rue721]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think it's incidental that Jensen made that acting choice. I think Jensen made that choice for a reason, I'm not sure what that reason is just yet.

In either case, I think that Jensen was conveying that when Ketch showed up, Dean recognized it as an opportunity. But IMO the opportunity that Dean spotted wasn't really for another drink, it was for some intel.

Also, IMO how Rufus *might* come into it is, Ketch approached Dean the same way that Dean had approached Rufus -- and I think that it may have occurred to Dean, based on that that, that Ketch saw him as a grizzled, old hand who was also a potential asset/ally that he needed to win over (similar to how Dean had seen Rufus), and so that's the "role" that Dean played with him.

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I think it's there to show that Dean is not in a good place and to make the audience wonder if he is going to return to 'Killer!Dean' like we saw in s9 and s10 given the mirror/comparison being drawn with Ketch.

I think that Dean proved he WAS actually in a pretty good place, though. He was offered things that he'd tried to lose himself in before -- alcohol and hunting/killing -- and he was able to stay in control even while partaking. That makes me think he's in an even better place than I would if he'd abstained completely.

Ketch drew a comparison between himself and Dean, but then Dean's own behavior/decisions belied the truth of that comparison. Ketch *said* they were alike, but Dean *showed* that they weren't.

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

One can be a functional alcoholic and leave the bottle behind to accomplish their work which Dean either did or didn't do. (TMI time, my dad was a functional alcoholic. No one at his job had a clue he was an alcoholic)

Sure, but if he had left some behind in that case, I think it would have looked more like rationing. His eye would have been on how much was left, at the least. It wouldn't have been like, "Oh, my mind isn't even on the rest of my drink, let me just casually and thoughtlessly leave it here while I walk out the door." ;)

I guess my point is that I think it was purposeful on the part of the show to have Dean stay in control while drinking, just like right after, they showed him stay in control while hunting. I think that was meant to show that he's in control altogether.

Also, to join you in your TMI, my father's drinking is not "well controlled," and that has skewed my perspective in terms of what's "normal" drinking -- and it has also skewed my perspective in terms of what's a "normal" amount of self-control or independence or good judgement, etc, to expect from someone. (My expectations tend to be too low or just weird, because they're usually appropriate to the abilities/desires of someone who might be drunk at any time or all the time, rather than to a regular "sober" adult lol).

So, in that same vein, I took it as a given that Sam and Dean would feel responsible for Mary's well-being, and would take responsibility for it by putting everything aside to make sure she's OK (no matter what bizarre and idiotic choices she might make!). That's also how I interpreted their behavior in this episode -- that that's what they were doing (Sam by going with Mary to the BMOL, and Dean by joining them at the end). Dean even said something to that effect at the end of the episode. But now I'm wondering if their expectations of her ARE skewed -- also too low or just weird or something.

Thinking about it now, it occurs to me that this season has been all about expectations, and especially how people's expectations are skewed or how they're out of step with reality. And how people subsequently react to their reality not matching their expectations. (I'm thinking of Mary and her heaven!family here, too, TBH). Hmm.

Not really going anywhere with that, just kind of spitballing lol.

Edited March 5, 2017 by rue721

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

I think that Dean proved he WAS actually in a pretty good place, though. He was offered things that he'd tried to lose himself in before -- alcohol and hunting/killing -- and he was able to stay in control even while partaking. That makes me think he's in an even better place than I would if he'd abstained completely.

I won't belabor the point here, I'll take my further comments to the Dean thread. 

I think we see things very differently when it comes to Dean and his use of alcohol.