ILoveReading March 3, 2017 Share March 3, 2017 (edited) 35 minutes ago, companionenvy said: Yup. That's actually part of what bothers me about this whole plotline. If the MOL really are that good -- and, despite the limitations revealed in this episode, they appear to be -- I'm really not sure why more hunters won't join them, or why Sam and Dean shouldn't (barring moral objections, which they have not raised). We know that the BMOL regularly crosses the moral event horizon, that Toni was not just a rogue operative, etc, but Sam and Dean, while they know enough to be suspicious, don't know enough to be taking the absolutist line Dean, at least, is still maintaining. The problem with this is that you essentially take the story away from Sam and Dean. If you push how effective these men of letters are, and emphasize just how well their methods work, how do you avoid telling the audience just how ineffective Sam and Dean have been over the years. (yes, they may have stopped apocalypses but they played a big part in starting them too). Sam and Dean are supposed to be the people other hunters looks up too. But now they're just employees working for people who are just so much better than they are. Its why its doesn't work for me. I know that good monsters are few and far between so odds are not a lot of them were killed during the exterminataions but how many people were caught in the cross fire. Lets say a goup of people are walking home from work and they see HMSS use one of those bombs on a vamp nest. Vamps look human so to people walking home would see what looks like people being killed. Would the brits elimate them to keep their secrets. To anyone Sam and Dean would look guilty, and none of those soliders deseved to get killed for just doing their jobs. So when they say they had no loss of life how true is that really. What do they consider a loss, or are people acceptable loses. How high is their body count? Edited March 3, 2017 by ILoveReading 9 Link to comment
DittyDotDot March 3, 2017 Share March 3, 2017 4 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said: No, I disagree. First - it belonged to the American MoL. Of which there are none left, save Sam and Dean. Second, I thought the American Mol originally sent a contingent over to GB to establish the BMoL? I thought they sent a contingent to meet with the existing BMoL, but the letter Sam found was mostly blacked out? I always assumed the Men of Letters far predated the founding of the U.S. and the U.S. chapter was probably the "youngest" one, but that's an assumption on my part. 21 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said: You have me excited! I really enjoyed s7 but rarely find anyone who agrees with me so....hi! I think you'll find there are a few of us weirdos who liked S7 here. 1 Link to comment
catrox14 March 3, 2017 Share March 3, 2017 (edited) 15 hours ago, ahrtee said: didn't get that he had to "let her" make her own decisions, because, as Catrox pointed out, she's already been doing that. I think was he was saying was that he'd have to honor her decisions, even if he didn't agree with them. Even this doesn't make sense to me. How can Dean, in practice, honor or respect a decision that is unilateral in the first place, and is built on lies and obfuscation? It's a false equivalency and 100% reductive to Dean's legitimate and well founded issues with Mary's choices to equate his anger with him wanting "Mommy" to coddle him. WTF, Berens...Just WTF?* It's actually kind of offensive to me that Berens shifted Dean's legitimate ACTUAL issue with Mary to an issue that was never shown to exist thus far and is not a viewpoint that Dean has epoused towards hunter Moms (see ellen and jodi). The only reason I can see for it's existence was to reiterate the "Mary is more than a Mom" mantra that the boys ALREADY KNOW. It's propping Mary at Dean's expense. Mary hasn't been shown to be any thing but an absentee birth mother to the boys thus far. Dean probably does have a longing to really connect and attach to Mary but not in the fucking ridiculous stereotype that Berens assigned to Dean there. JFC I'm really steamed about this. LOL 37 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said: n this case, I mean the American government though. I just don't see that happening as fast as it did - considering the CIA had Sam and Dean locked away at a black site not a few episodes ago. I meant the American gov't or American private gov't contractors. I'm thinking the Blackwaters and Halliburtons of the SPN verse. Private soldiers and prison type stuff. IF the BMoL can afford all those gadgets they must have some kind of financing. That black site could been a privately contracted site with private soldiers working for them versus actual Army dudes or CIA/Secret Service employees, which might actually explain why they were as bad at perimeters as CTU. Money talks is all I'm saying. ETA: * To me, this is like expecting Sam or Dean to have honored/respected their unilateral decision making i. e. Ruby or the Gadreel possession. Berens took a really serious legitimate concern Dean had with Mary and altered and reduced it to "I was just mad that Mommy wasn't there to make me sammiches" . ERGGHHH. step off with that nonsense, Berens. Edited March 3, 2017 by catrox14 4 Link to comment
companionenvy March 3, 2017 Share March 3, 2017 40 minutes ago, ILoveReading said: Sam and Dean are supposed to be the people other hunters looks up too. But now they're just employees working for people who are just so much better than they are. Its why its doesn't work for me. I know that good monsters are few and far between so odds are not a lot of them were killed during the exterminataions but how many people were caught in the cross fire. Lets say a goup of people are walking home from work and they see HMSS use one of those bombs on a vamp nest. Vamps look human so to people walking home would see what looks like people being killed. Would the brits elimate them to keep their secrets. To anyone Sam and Dean would look guilty, and none of those soliders deseved to get killed for just doing their jobs Oh, I agree that I don't want to see Sam and Dean working for the MOL. And, as I said above, we as viewers have plenty of evidence that the BMOL are bad, bad news. The issue, for me, is that there has to be a reason that makes sense to people in the show-world, who don't know that they are characters in a TV show. And, for me, there simply isn't enough evidence that Sam and Dean have seen that would justify totally dismissing the BMOL. It becomes less believable when we're supposed to assume that Mary Winchester is essentially the only American hunter who has listened to them. High handed as they are, they seem to get results. And plenty of hunters wouldn't have moral scruples about monster genocide. I usually agree with AwesomeO, but I guess where I depart from her (?) on this episode is that based on what we saw on screen, I can see why Sam would be willing to work with the BMOL after this encounter (I can't see why he wouldn't simply tell Dean that that's what he was doing, but that's another story, and it remains to be seen how honest he'll be with Dean, though I don't have high hopes). Essentially, they showed themselves to be an operation that had had a lot of success killing monsters, but that could use input from people with real field experience. And they were killing vampires, who, almost without exception, survive by killing humans. Sam and Dean are willing to acknowledge those exceptions when they become aware of them, but for the most part, they justifiably assume that vamps should be taken out. As for Pierce, I'd be upset if Sam and Dean stood around cracking jokes as he was waterboarded for kicks, but I can buy that Sam wouldn't have all that much concern for his Miranda rights after what he had been through. For me, it will be inconsistent to his character if Sam has no problem with a) the killing of known sympathetic monsters/supernaturally-influenced people, b) Ketch-style torture, if he knows it is going on, and c) the murder of civilian bystanders. But so far, he hasn't agreed to any of those things. In this particular case, he came to the MOL base, but still handled the situation his way. I have no reason to believe he is planning to meekly defer to whatever the BMOL tells him is necessary. TL;DR: The BMOL are bad news. But I can see why Sam, based on his limited information, thinks they are worth working with (which is not necessarily the same as working for). And I don't think the show has done a good job showing why Dean, with his limited information, is so absolutely sure they aren't, let alone why every single hunter in America not named Winchester would be opposed to working with them. 1 Link to comment
ZennyKenny March 3, 2017 Share March 3, 2017 Meh, pretty par for the course as far as what I've come to expect from SPN at this point. "Hi, we're the BMoL. We're so efficient at what we do that we've completely wiped out all of the monsters in our country, but somehow we're completely unprepared to defend ourselves against said monsters because apparently across the pond they just sit still & look pretty while we kill them from a distance or something." "Hey, Ketch has a dark side! Remember how he's the ex of the woman who tortured Sam? Look at how much fun he's having while beating up the vampire! Did you catch that? No? Well just in case, let's have him laugh with glee! For those of you in the back that don't get it yet, don't worry; next episode we're going to have him eat an apple while torturing a monster. Too subtle?" "Guys guys, it's Dean! You know, that manly man who has trouble with his emotions so he drinks a lot and sometimes enjoys killing monsters? We know we've established that since, like, season 2, but we literally can't think of any other character traits for him right now. Have fun connecting to your new murderous pal, Ketch, because you both love to kill, and if it's any trait that you can bond with someone over, it's the love of killing, amirite? Bottoms up!" **SIGH** 9 Link to comment
Fables March 3, 2017 Share March 3, 2017 I'm in the minority but I actually like Mary's character and understand why she is doing what she is. Many are saying she is a bad parent but she never got to be a parent to the Sam and Dean since she died. Now she is back and her boys are now grown men older and wiser than her with more experience, so she may be a little naïve. I don't think she entirely trusts the British Men of Letters but she sees how good they are with their advanced gadgets that they don't have and they can be useful and eliminating the country of monsters. She believes she is doing the right thing and thinks it could benefit her sons. As for torturing Sam, it was Toni and her henchwoman that did that acting against the BMOL orders which was to gain the Winchester's trust and sway them into the fold but she ruined that by her actions. That was confirmed at the end of the second episode this season when Mick and Toni were talking. Toni thinks the Winchesters are as bad as the monsters they hunt and should be killed but Mick was hesitant and only considered that as a last resort and he sent in Mr. Ketch but he seems to want to work with them. Mary doesn't isn't aware of how ruthless they can be killing that psychic girl and then the soldiers who had taken Sam and Dean, she just knows they helped her rescue them. Also, Sam called the BMOL when he needed their help and was impressed with their gadgets. I do understand Dean and Sam's anger towards Mary but I do find Dean a bit hypocritical in his attitude shutting her out not willing to understand her side condemning her for lying when they have a history of lying to each other or keeping secrets from one another when they think its' for the greater good. That is what Mary was doing, the problem is Dean has always put Mary up on a pedestal and had this idealized image of her and now it's been tarnished as Mary is just has flawed as they are. Besides, Dean and Sam had both worked with Crowley many times despite what he's put them through in the past and even the demon Meg despite her actions. They had forgiven each for their wrongdoings and even forgiven Castiel for his in the past so hopefully they can works things out with Mary. Dean didn't actually apologize in the end, he just told Mary that when he thought her life was in danger nothing else mattered to him and that he doesn't expect her to be this domesticated mother who cooks for them and fix their lunches as they are all adults now and she is still is mother even if he doesn't agree with her choices and I thing Mary was about to apologize but Dean cut her off. They were both wrong, her for keeping a secret for them, and him for quickly judging and condemning her when he's made similar mistakes of his own in the past and was willing to just cut her out of his life. As for the BMOL, I seem them as similar to the hunter Gordon Walker, in that they see things too black and white with no grey, want to eliminate anything that is supernatural viewing them a threat and their methods are too extreme and ruthless and misguided thinking its for the greater good. Sam and Dean are right to be weary of them and I hope Mary finds out just how extreme they are in the future. On the plus side, I did like the scenes between Dean and Mr. Ketch and I'm not surprised he and Toni used to date. I think he's an complex interesting character even if he's not a nice guy. I was sad to see the Alpha Vamp get killed in this episode as I wanted to see more of him but he I understand why he needed be killed. I'm looking forward to seeing this play out and hope all the Winchesters come together in the end. 4 Link to comment
catrox14 March 3, 2017 Share March 3, 2017 4 minutes ago, companionenvy said: The issue, for me, is that there has to be a reason that makes sense to people in the show-world, who don't know that they are characters in a TV show. And, for me, there simply isn't enough evidence that Sam and Dean have seen that would justify totally dismissing the BMOL. It becomes less believable when we're supposed to assume that Mary Winchester is essentially the only American hunter who has listened to them. High handed as they are, they seem to get results. And plenty of hunters wouldn't have moral scruples about monster genocide. It seems to me that being nearly killed, tortured and mind raped by a BMOL operative, whether rogue or not, should make them question everything they do. What I want to know is whether Sam has ever disclosed what Lady McMindRapist did to him. That ALONE should cause Sam to just say, "NOPE, you all go about your business and we'll go about ours". Why they would ever really trust the MoL at all after the Magnus thing, and Lady DieRightNow and her gal pal of Doom may not be quite as rogue as Mick and Ketch would have them believe. Even if Sam decides that his experience is not enough to swear them off them you'd think Dean, Cas and Mary being nearly murdered by BMOL operatives would put him off them. So really on no level is Sam agreeing to work with them plausible other than because Mary reasons. I will forgive all of this if Dean and Sam are playing their own long cons with Ketch and Mick. ( I'm disinclined to forgive Berens writing of Dean in the epilogue. That needs some followup on Dean's headspace about Mary but I suspect that will not happen at all.) 13 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said: Meh, pretty par for the course as far as what I've come to expect from SPN at this point. "Hi, we're the BMoL. We're so efficient at what we do that we've completely wiped out all of the monsters in our country, but somehow we're completely unprepared to defend ourselves against said monsters because apparently across the pond they just sit still & look pretty while we kill them from a distance or something." "Hey, Ketch has a dark side! Remember how he's the ex of the woman who tortured Sam? Look at how much fun he's having while beating up the vampire! Did you catch that? No? Well just in case, let's have him laugh with glee! For those of you in the back that don't get it yet, don't worry; next episode we're going to have him eat an apple while torturing a monster. Too subtle?" "Guys guys, it's Dean! You know, that manly man who has trouble with his emotions so he drinks a lot and sometimes enjoys killing monsters? We know we've established that since, like, season 2, but we literally can't think of any other character traits for him right now. Have fun connecting to your new murderous pal, Ketch, because you both love to kill, and if it's any trait that you can bond with someone over, it's the love of killing, amirite? Bottoms up!" **SIGH** I bow to all the beautiful snark in this comment. Seriously. This is great! 3 Link to comment
Myrelle March 3, 2017 Share March 3, 2017 52 minutes ago, catrox14 said: Berens took a really serious legitimate concern Dean had with Mary and altered and reduced it to "I was just mad that Mommy wasn't there to make me sammiches" . ERGGHHH. step off with that nonsense, Berens. When I saw the transcript of this latest Dean apology 1)you can't know how happy I was that skipped the apology; and 2) the bolded part-only I used a few cuss words because that's how steamed *I* was by the atrocious writing in yet another apology that, like you, left me thinking WTF?! So Amen to this quote as to exactly why I, too, thought the writing sucked in that apology. Many of the other writing problems in this episode have already been pointed out, but this one? It was like a 12 year old wrote it, IMO. 1 Link to comment
SueB March 3, 2017 Share March 3, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, catrox14 said: It's actually kind of offensive to me that Berens shifted Dean's legitimate ACTUAL issue with Mary to an issue that was never shown to exist thus far and is not a viewpoint that Dean has epoused towards hunter Moms (see ellen and jodi). The only reason I can see for it's existence was to reiterate the "Mary is more than a Mom" mantra that the boys ALREADY KNOW. It's propping Mary at Dean's expense. Mary hasn't been shown to be any thing but an absentee birth mother to the boys thus far. Dean probably does have a longing to really connect and attach to Mary but not in the fucking ridiculous stereotype that Berens assigned to Dean there. But did Beren's shift Dean's ACTUAL issue or what Dean PERCEIVED to be the issue. If you presume this is the last we've heard on the topic, then I will agree with you -- it's very superficial and not the actual issue at all. The actual issue (IMO) is as you stated, Dean wants a connection with his mother. But what if this is just another round in the ongoing exploration of the issue? Berens really NAILED that confrontation w/ Mary. There was a lot of anger in Dean about Mary not just wanting space but space away FROM THEM. It was Mary who came back with the argument that she wouldn't be 'just a Mom'. It's MARY who associates "Mom" with cutting off the crusts of the PB&J. Mary doesn't know how to be a mother of adults. It's very very different. And Sam and Dean just want a relationship with her where they feel like she loves them -- with something more than words. Right now, her words feel hollow when she's running away from them. She doesn't know how to relate to them except as hunters. And even though Dean responded DIRECTLY to Mary's "not JUST a Mom" argument in the context of mother of little children as she expressed it, HE couldn't express what he wanted for a relationship. He just wanted her back in the category of "Mom". So, if you presume that this is just another "step" in forming a relationship here's what I think the episode accomplished (as in new insights by the end): - Mary LIKELY understands: She messed up. Come clean with the boys, others will exploit it if she doesn't and it's the right thing to do. Sam and Dean have no tolerance for betrayal. Dean is VERY hurt but still wants her to be her be his mother (without the childhood elements). And Dean has some long term issues. ("I was never a child"). Sam is loyal to Dean but more open to listening. He's less damaged and provides more direct feedback. But he's still guarded.Not so much: She HEARD Sam chose the hunting life but she's not ready to give up on normal for him (or Dean). - Sam LIKELY understands: Mary accepts that lying was wrong. Mary has grabbed onto a mission to get rid of all the monsters so Sam and Dean can have a better life. Mary is overly impressed with all the gadgets but she believes the BMoL are going to change the world. Sam also gets that Dean is not going to be able to freeze Mary out and, like Sammy, he's going to protect her if he can. Which means Sam knows Mary is a weakspot for Dean (emotionally). I think Sam believes Mary is in over her head and is still confused on how to relate to the boys He believes she loves them (IMO) but is going about showing it in a 'mission impossible' way. Not so much: He doesn't appear to see Mary's ego on being a good hunter. - Dean LIKELY understands: Mary knows she messed up (she sent texts with apologies, he read them). He can't freeze her out no matter how much he wants to. She does want a relationship with he and Sam, but on her terms. While he's cool with the whole "not a kid" thing, he's not cool with the choices she's making. But he gets that if he wants to be a part of her life, he's going to have to get used to her CONTINUING to make choices he doesn't like. Dean likely gets that Sam is having an easier time with Mary's choices.Not so much: Dean's fear of losing her again HAS pushed him back into withholding some of his hurt. But Dean has decided he wants her in his life more than he wants his issues resolved. THIS IS NOT HEALTHY but it's completely IN character. And Dean doesn't know it's not healthy. So, there are OPEN ISSUES. But I'd score it the following way in terms of growth: each gave enough insight to the other two that they can put some of the pieces together. I think Sam is the one closest to understanding Mary is floundering in HOW to be a Mom whereas Dean thinks Mary is choosing this distance to be an independent person. IF Sam and Dean talk and Sam explains Mary's "kill all the monsters" theory, Sam may get Dean to understand her choice is less about independence and more about them. I think Mary gets she's messed up and needs to do better. She gets a sense of the depth of damage and knows that just hunting is not going to be the answer. I don't think she has a clue how to fix it. Mary is GRATEFUL for Dean calling her Mom and everyone got that. NOT resolved: How to actually relate as Mother and adult sons. More than words and how to be a part of their lives other than hunting are both required. No one has that worked out yet. Edited March 3, 2017 by SueB 6 Link to comment
Myrelle March 3, 2017 Share March 3, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said: Anyhoo I love a debate but I don't want to argue so we may have to agree to disagree. Done. 2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: Or barring that, he's regressed back to character traits he's been shown to have outgrow in order to again put him on the wrong side. This episode - if things stand as they are - seems to be an example of this They do this to both characters constantly. *See what Dean had to apologize for in this episode again; and for the umpteenth time in this series only to a different character this time, while his legitimate hurt and pain was reduced to not having sandwiches made for him or getting kissed goodnight. ERGH!!* AND Mother Mary skated completely on the things that she'd done wrong as if she'd actually done nothing wrong at all and Dean was just MEEN! and wrong to have frozen her out for few days. Too bad the show doesn't match up with the tell here again. But at this point, I kind of have no one to blame but myself for expecting more from these writers. I definitely should not have gotten my hopes up regarding the return of Mary. I should have known that they would ruin a once beloved character for me. It's what they do best, after all. And I will be floored if Dean's most legitimate issues with both his mother and father come up again...w/o just being swept under the carpet again, that is. They might bring them up the next time they need some angst out of Dean, but they haven't even really addressed the most important and legitimate ones that I've seen that he still has with Sam, tbh and again, IMO; so why would it be any different with his mother and/or father(through his mother because yeah, Dad's dead now, so no other way for that to happen, but I guess it was more important for Dean to accept that they're all adults. Again. Sheesh.) Edited March 3, 2017 by Myrelle 1 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 March 3, 2017 Share March 3, 2017 1 hour ago, companionenvy said: I usually agree with AwesomeO, but I guess where I depart from her (?) on this episode is that based on what we saw on screen, I can see why Sam would be willing to work with the BMOL after this encounter (I can't see why he wouldn't simply tell Dean that that's what he was doing, but that's another story, and it remains to be seen how honest he'll be with Dean, though I don't have high hopes). Essentially, they showed themselves to be an operation that had had a lot of success killing monsters, but that could use input from people with real field experience. I would give you this except for one piece of information Sam does have that somewhat contradicts everything that the BMoL supposedly showed him. Even though the BMoL went on and on about their awesome spies and intel system blah, blah, blah, as soon as Sam found out that Mary stole the Colt from Ramiel, and that the BMoL now had it, shouldn't he conclude that that was a BMoL mission? I mean why would Mary out of the blue figure out where the Colt was, steal it, and then give it to the BMoL? Since she'd been working for them, it makes more sense for it to have been a BMoL mission. So knowing that, and how badly uninformed they were going into that mission - not knowing the demon was a Prince of Hell, not knowing how armed he was with even weapons that could take down an angel, and not even knowing about all of the guard demons, etc. - why would Sam believe all of this bullcrap about awesome intel and expertly coordinated hunts when he was on one that went sideways from the get go? And if all of that stuff about coordinated hunts is true, why are their "regular" hunts that are actually to get rather useful weapons put together so shabbily. In my opinion, something is very off about that, and that Sam can't see the discrepancy or at least ask Mary "well, then if their info is so great, how did our hunt go so terribly wrong?" (where Wally got killed and they had to depend on the kindness of a demon to save one of their asses.) And that's before we include the vampire attack... and again if their spies and intel are so great, how did they not know that this one last vampire nest - that you would think with all of these supposed spies they have, they would be watching like a hawk - was driving to their supposedly very secret location to get them? Sure the vampires had an inside guy* to tell them where the headquarters were, but was no one watching the vamp nest? And if so, how did they not notice a dozen or so vampires leaving said nest and heading towards their headquarters? Did all the spies watching all of the other nests just pick up and go home - "enh job done. No need to watch these last few vamps that were somehow smart enough to evade all of our other awesome tactics earlier, even though we supposedly know exactly where they are. I'm sure they'll stay put right there until we go kill them." So for me something doesn't make sense, and if Sam had any brains in his head and knowing what he knows, he should have waaaaaaay more questions before he says "I'm in" - if in fact his "I'm in" is legitimate. So yes, their maps and supposed "intel" are on the surface impressive, but I'm disappointed that Sam is supposedly distracted by these gilded toys and can't see the obvious inconsistencies right below the surface. * And was he all that good of a double agent that they didn't have any information on him to start with that he was working for the Alpha vampire before they let him into the secret bunker? Really? I'd question their intel ability right there. No psychics on their payroll to check people out? Sure their intel says that they got rid of all the vampires in the Midwestern region, but they somehow didn't know that this hunter that they let into their organization had been working for the Alpha vampire for years? Yup, I buy that *sarcasm*. 1 hour ago, Myrelle said: They do this to both characters constantly. *See what Dean had to apologize for in this episode again; and for the umpteenth time in this series only to a different character this time, while his legitimate hurt and pain was reduced to not having sandwiches made for him or getting kissed goodnight. ERGH!!* Oh, I'd be happy if this is all they did to Sam, since they do this sort of thing to his character all of the time also* I could handle that. It's when they have Sam do stuff that seems completely out of character - like not looking for Dean and Kevin and just shrugging his shoulders and giving up hunting "oh well, not my problem" or in this case appearing to be "all in" without at least questioning things - that I get annoyed. * For example Castiel lecturing Sam about Sam's "bad choices" while ignoring his own and Sam just accepting that. Or Sam's legitimate anger about Dean making the deal getting swept aside and having Sam instead feeling and being guilty for it and making sure Dean gets his threesome or that extra long drink session at the bar to make it up to Dean. (I'm not really bitter about that. It was nice of Sam to do, but you can see where it might be seen as somewhat dismissive of Sam's legitimate feelings. Sam didn't ask to be brought back or to have to know that Dean would be in hell because of it, and then he wasn't allowed to be legitimately angry about it either.) @Aeryn13: Quote Meanwhile Mick, after the debacle at the compound, clearly did not expect Sam to say "yes." It made so little sense that even the recruiter looked like "the hell?" in the face of success. Which makes me think it was just a ploy by Sam. There was nothing in the episode that really was convincing. The Alpha Vamp is now dead? Nothing to do with the BMOL methos really. Unless you wanna say their genocidal strategy serves as good bait to lure out some ultra Big Bads. Thank you. Now I know it's not just me being overly paranoid about this. Sadly, however I won't be all that surprised if the "I'm in" is not a ploy by Sam like I hope it is but is instead just a straight up declaration so that Sam and Dean can be on "opposite sides." Even if it makes almost no sense for Sam's character as he is now. 1 Link to comment
Wayward Son March 3, 2017 Share March 3, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said: For example Castiel lecturing Sam about Sam's "bad choices" while ignoring his own and Sam just accepting that. Can I ask what episode you're referring to? And it might be best if you respond in the all episodes thread in case we go off topic :) <3 Edited March 3, 2017 by Wayward Son Link to comment
DeeDee79 March 3, 2017 Share March 3, 2017 5 hours ago, companionenvy said: And I don't think the show has done a good job showing why Dean, with his limited information, is so absolutely sure they aren't, let alone why every single hunter in America not named Winchester would be opposed to working with them. This is true. Besides Wally and Mary we didn't actually see their pitch to the other hunters. I would've loved to see the reaction from Bobby, Rufus or Ellen after a sit down with Mick. Oh well... 1 Link to comment
MysteryGuest March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 The problem I have is that they are screwing with the entire history of this show. Are we really supposed to believe that the BMOL have developed all of these high tech ways to take out entire nests of monsters at a time, eradicated all monsters from England, while the Americans are still stumbling along, killing monsters the same way they've done for centuries? It sort of takes our heroes and makes them look like morons. I have to assume the end game is to show that their way really isn't better, but as usual, the writing isn't helping with this plan. So unless they really intend for next season to be all about Sam and Dean now heading up the new American MOL killing squad, then what's the point of this? And let me just say that I really don't want the show to to take that turn. I don't want SPN to turn into a completely different show. But how do they walk this back at this point? Even once it's discovered that the BMOL are murdering assholes, that still doesn't take away from the fact that the science has been shown to work. How do they go back to just hunting the old fashioned way? Maybe between now and the end of season 13, Sam and Dean wipe out every monster in America and the show ends with them retiring to Florida. I just don't see how this ends with our little show still intact, and that makes me sad. 6 Link to comment
catrox14 March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 And another thing... For me the key part of that entire Mary/Dean argument was Dean saying out loud to his mother 'I never was" a child. And Mary having no apparent reaction to that MAJOR thing. Dean doesn't whine about his childhood. He doesn't go on about how bad it was for him. Or what he gave up. Like shouldn't that have stopped her in tracks and pulled her up short? Couldn't she have shown an ounce of compassion, sympathy, empathy, SOMETHING? I know Dean was further upset but I wonder...if she had shown a moment of kindness to him during that moment if he would have been less inclined to telling her to hit the road. 11 Link to comment
Mick Lady March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 20 hours ago, companionenvy said: How do they not say "Look, I get you have high-tech ways of killing monsters, and to that extent, maybe we should collaborate. But I'm not going to sign off on indiscriminately killing every supernatural being, even if the end result is a net positive. We've met "good monsters", we've worked with good monsters, and we're not in the business of torturing even the bad ones. And by the way, how far does your definition of "monster" extend? Oh thanks companionenvy! Now you have me thinking the BMoL will try to kill Crowley! I don't need that! *goes into corner to sulk* 2 Link to comment
catrox14 March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 13 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said: The problem I have is that they are screwing with the entire history of this show. Are we really supposed to believe that the BMOL have developed all of these high tech ways to take out entire nests of monsters at a time, eradicated all monsters from England, while the Americans are still stumbling along, killing monsters the same way they've done for centuries? It sort of takes our heroes and makes them look like morons. I have to assume the end game is to show that their way really isn't better, but as usual, the writing isn't helping with this plan. So unless they really intend for next season to be all about Sam and Dean now heading up the new American MOL killing squad, then what's the point of this? I think you're onto something here. There was an interesting line from Mary to Sam 'I'm not trying to recruit you(yes I'm totally trying to recruit you)but you need to know. Things are changing.' That to me was another harbinger of doom/change. Link to comment
SueB March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 8 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said: The problem I have is that they are screwing with the entire history of this show. Are we really supposed to believe that the BMOL have developed all of these high tech ways to take out entire nests of monsters at a time, eradicated all monsters from England, while the Americans are still stumbling along, killing monsters the same way they've done for centuries? It sort of takes our heroes and makes them look like morons. I have to assume the end game is to show that their way really isn't better, but as usual, the writing isn't helping with this plan. So unless they really intend for next season to be all about Sam and Dean now heading up the new American MOL killing squad, then what's the point of this? And let me just say that I really don't want the show to to take that turn. I don't want SPN to turn into a completely different show. But how do they walk this back at this point? Even once it's discovered that the BMOL are murdering assholes, that still doesn't take away from the fact that the science has been shown to work. How do they go back to just hunting the old fashioned way? Maybe between now and the end of season 13, Sam and Dean wipe out every monster in America and the show ends with them retiring to Florida. I just don't see how this ends with our little show still intact, and that makes me sad. I think the Alpha Vamp said it best. To paraphrase; 'In England, I didn't get involved because...it's 'England'" and he shrugged his shoulders like it didn't matter. 'But America....yes. America is MY home. And it is time...you get...off...my lawn.' So, extrapolating from that, England was isolated enough that people simply could avoid that island. Plenty of other places to live. ( And BTW, No FREAKIN' way have they got rid of all the ghosts. ) But it'll be a different story in America. And it'll need an American solution. First, Americans are NOT going to just line up and follow any centralized organization. They may or may not take help from Sam and Dean Winchester as well. Some still blame them for releasing the demons, and the first major apocalypse. Most are past it, but Tracy was just 3 years ago. So... it's not going to be like that (IF they go this route). Second, some of that tech is genocide. It's NOT a fair fight. And it just won't sit well. So they probably will give out the helpful stuff, like smoke bombs that immobilize vamps. But not rugaru brain melters. For one thing, if you can't control the hunters, you can't put the equivalent of weapons of mass destruction in their hands. So.. IF they go for an Americanized version: 1) Americans, not Brits, will be the focal point 2) It'll be loose confederation of people helping people. Not a strict org chart. 3) Not everyone will be interested JMO, but again... this is an "if". 4 Link to comment
catrox14 March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 And another, another thing. WTF . Why would Berens have the BMOL explain how vampire nests work to SAM who has been hunting vampires his whole life. Who counted on vampire!Dean to get into the Vamp's nest to take out the main vamp of that nest. AS IF SAM DIDN'T UNDERSTAND HOW VAMPIRES HIERARCHY WORKS? Seriously show?? Seriously?? That was the literal worst kind of exposition non-Crowley last week division. 6 Link to comment
auntvi March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 8 minutes ago, SueB said: So they probably will give out the helpful stuff, like smoke bombs that immobilize vamps. But not rugaru brain melters. For one thing, if you can't control the hunters, you can't put the equivalent of weapons of mass destruction in their hands. LOL. Sounds kinda like American military advisers on the ground in Vietnam. The BMoL should watch out for that classic blunder - never get involved in a ground war in Asia America. 4 Link to comment
DittyDotDot March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 4 minutes ago, catrox14 said: Why would Berens have the BMOL explain how vampire nests work to SAM who has been hunting vampires his whole life. Well, not his whole life. Sam and Dean didn't know they existed until S1...but I take your point. Pointless exposition is pointless. 1 Link to comment
catrox14 March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 8 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said: Well, not his whole life. Sam and Dean didn't know they existed until S1...but I take your point. Pointless exposition is pointless. Okay my bad 12 years then LOL Link to comment
Binns March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 Not down with the last part of this episode. I'm not into brother v brother ever again. Holding onto a shred of hope that Sam has a different play in mind. I just don't buy it otherwise when he was clearly feeling so betrayed not an hour earlier. Gotta say I wasn't pleased by Dean's actions at the end either. My ideal ending would have been Sam telling Dean he's picked a side, that side is Dean, and the brothers getting the hell out of there leaving everyone (including Mary) at that stupid techy place. I don't like the direction this is taking. 7 Link to comment
SueB March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, catrox14 said: And another thing... For me the key part of that entire Mary/Dean argument was Dean saying out loud to his mother 'I never was" a child. And Mary having no apparent reaction to that MAJOR thing. Dean doesn't whine about his childhood. He doesn't go on about how bad it was for him. Or what he gave up. Like shouldn't that have stopped her in tracks and pulled her up short? Couldn't she have shown an ounce of compassion, sympathy, empathy, SOMETHING? I know Dean was further upset but I wonder...if she had shown a moment of kindness to him during that moment if he would have been less inclined to telling her to hit the road. Warning... step by step layout for purposes of discussion. Feel free to skip or re-do if you think I've missed something:camera view in italics verbal EMPHASIS in all caps verbal EMPHASIS also on closed captioning is with ITALICIZED CAPS. I just rewatched that bit just to see that moment. Again, we are seeing the argument from Mary's POV, this is HER 'flashback'. Here's how that moment goes: -She's looking at her phone and you hear her say "I'm doing this for you!" while still seeing the screenshot of all her phone texts reaching out to Dean. - As she starts to say "I'm playing three decades (scene transition) of catchup here." Her POV is Dean shaking his head and then close in on Dean's angry face saying "And we're not?" - Camera stays on Dean as he starts "How do think this has been for (transition to Sam's face) for US? We're your sons, (transition BACK to Dean's face) and you've been gone." "Our whole lives, you've been gone." And Dean is staring angrily at her, in closeup. - Scene shifts BACK to Mary in her BMoL room and she looks up and sighs, like she's remembering that anger, then looks down at her phone where the screen says 'Sorry.' in her text to Dean. Dean's voice over "You said you needed time. - Scene shifts back to a view of both boys with Dean saying "No, you said you needed SPACE." "So we gave you space." "But you didn't need just space, (and Sam reacts, like he knows what's coming) you needed space from US." Dean delivers that US with the camera solely on him. - Camera shifts back to Mary, reacting, saying "That's not true." Her eyes are red rimmed and she's clearly angry and upset. - Scene shifts BACK to Mary's phone texts in the BMoL room and we see her text which says "I'm sorry you found out this way." Mary's voiceover, "Dean, I'm trying..." -Scene shifts back to close-up on Dean, interrupting Mary with "How 'bout for once you just try being our Mom." - Camera shift to Mary's text saying "I can explain.", Mary voiceover, "I am your Mother." - Scene shifts back to Mary in the Bunker, "But I am NOT 'just a Mom.'" - Camera shifts to Dean, "And you are not a child." Stony face Dean replies "I never was". - Scene shifts back to Mary's reaction, but it's in the BMoL Bunker. She looks up, and then looks back down as Dean's voice over says "So between us and them--", point of view is first Mary, then Mary's phone text saying "Can we talk about what happened?" and Mary interrupting Dean in a voiceover "It's not like that" - Snap back to close-up on Dean's face and him looking away from her. He nods his head as he faces her and says "Yeah, MARY, it is." - Camera focuses on Mary, big reaction sigh and disappointed face, - Camera shifts back to resolve-face Dean "And you made your choice." Camera shifts to Sam on the word "choice." It appears he's been looking down the whole time and he looks up on that last word. - Back to tight shot of half-body Dean pointing with his finger and saying "So there's the door." And Dean turns immediately and walks off. -Camera shifts to a wider angle as Mary watches, stunned, while Dean walks off. Sam pushes back his chair. Mary leans on the table and -Camera shifts to Mary typing a NEW text saying "Please talk to Me" We hear Mary's voiceover: "Sam". -Camera shifts back to the bunker, closeup on Sam's upper body as she is saying "Sam..." Sam looks up with red rimmed eyes and nods his head "You should go." - Camera shifts back to Mary in the BMoL sighing at the phone, then standing up and looking out the window. *end scene* My point in doing this detailed description is to point out: 1) This is CLEARLY how Mary remembers it. So it highlights WHAT she remembers. To me, she is seeing a VERY angry Dean face, close-up for most of the conversation. 2) The snaps back to her texts can be interpreted in many ways, but I think it's showing how much she's re-living this conversation EVERY DAY. And the emotion she's feeling at the moment in response to what she's hearing from Dean or what she's trying to say. In short, I think the text messages, for the purpose of this scene, are ALSO her inner voice. 3) Sam is pretty gutted by the whole thing and sits silently while Dean takes the lead. Then standing up, he quietly tells Mary to go. MAN, is that devastating IMO for Mary. Without offering anything else, he's pretty much saying "what Dean said". Clearly Mary thought Sam would be more open. And he wasn't. Such a great moment of solidarity for the boys. 4) Mary, halfway through the conversation, focuses her responses directly to Dean, even saying "Dean" and only looking at him. At that point in the conversation, she mistakenly thinks this is mostly about Dean. As mentioned in #3 above, no.... they are unified in this. 5) Mary hears Dean say "Just try to be our Mom." but what she responds back with it she's not "Just a Mom." These, as others have pointed out, are two different things. And Mary, perhaps with her pre-existing biases, either doesn't hear Dean directly, or answers the issue in the way SHE wants it framed. IF it's the second part, it's clear she wants to frame this argument as if it's Dean (only) complaining about Mary not being a traditional Mom. This is NOT the argument. But Dean is so stunned with her "you are not a child" that he responds with "I never was." rather than say "that is not what I'm talking about". SO, at this point NEITHER is listening to the other (is what I'm guessing). And now both are too angry to listen. IMO, Mary didn't expect the strong reaction. Second, Dean took a BIG dump on her with the "you wanted space from US". And she tries to talk but her anger is also getting in the way of her listening. Dean, OTOH, stopped listening after he heard it was the Lake House (in the previous scene). So when we start THIS scene, Dean has already built up a head of steam. Bottom Line for the TL; DR: By the time this scene starts, Dean is on a roll and the focus of the argument from Mary's POV with both camera angles and her text screen to Dean emphasizing that POV (Dean's anger) as well as showing her inner dialog. By the time Dean throws her running away from THEM in her face, she's now so emotional, she's not listening very well either. The argument degrades from there. But Mary does, actually, remember the words spoken because it's HER flashback (not Dean's or Sam's). Direct response to @catrox14 comment: She DOES react, it's in the bunker with the POV of first her face and then her typing her text message "Can we talk about what happened?" Edited March 4, 2017 by SueB ETA: Why YES, I'm obsessed with the scene... why do you ask? 3 Link to comment
catrox14 March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 4 minutes ago, SueB said: Direct response to @catrox14 comment: She DOES react, it's in the bunker with the POV of first her face and then her typing her text message "Can we talk about what happened?" I know I saw that too. But that is not what I'm talking about. I'm not being clear. She did not acknowledge his suffering TO HIS FACE. A look that was self serving because she then resumed her own "That's not how it is" garbage. I should have prefaced my comment by saying I watched that scene literally 10 times. I already understood all the perspectives but that doesn't really change my opinion and objection. Honestly. I have NO sympathy for Mary here. I don't really care that she went off and was so upset and texting from her bunk in the BMOLOL. IMO, Mary is a coward when it comes to her children IMO. She can't deal with them. Dean was angry and yet at his most vulnerable by confessing his pain. And she did nothing to help him or provide him comfort in that moment TO HIS FACE. If she couldn't stop in that moment, in his space, to give him some kind of comfort, well, fuck her. And IF SHE DID, and the director/editor didn't include it and opted for this stupid time jump editing that really served no purpose, then IMO that is horrible storytelling. Even in the texting IMO if she really was concerned about him, she could have texted.'Dean, I'm sorry. I had no idea how bad it was for you. Let's talk about it". But Mary doesn't want to talk about anything personal with Dean. IMO. Sorry, Sue. I appreciate your effort but it doesn't change much for me. 7 Link to comment
Macbeth March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 11 hours ago, Mulva said: I also had no problem with Sam and Mary allowing the BMOL to take the traitorous hunter to meet his fate. The man was directly responsible for several deaths that day and who knows how many innocent people died because he was working with the alpha vamp. I don't understand it either. They can't report him to the police. He has to die. He was siding with the monsters for money. I am also confused by the problem with the idea that one weapon being able to take out one segment of monsters. Is it better that the fighting be inefficient where so many hunters and innocent people die? Obviously, there is no concern that this weapon will actually work given the BMOL's incompetence. Regarding the torture of monsters. It's stupid. Not outright killing a vampire can bite you in the ass. Which is what happened in S6, when the Alpha Vamp slaughtered people after he escaped Crowley's prison. When that BMOL guy put down his sword in order to punch a vampire - another vampire could have easily picked up that sword and beheaded him. This isn't Angel where the monsters were treated as mostly human. No monster owns a karaoke bar on this show. 2 Link to comment
catrox14 March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 25 minutes ago, SueB said: IMO, Mary didn't expect the strong reaction. Second, Dean took a BIG dump on her with the "you wanted space from US". And she tries to talk but her anger is also getting in the way of her listening. Dean, OTOH, stopped listening after he heard it was the Lake House (in the previous scene). So when we start THIS scene, Dean has already built up a head of steam. What makes you think Dean stopped listening here? Dean didn't take a DUMP on her. He told her exactly how HER absences and choices have affected him. It's making it seem like he has NO legitimate beef. Why wouldn't Mary have expected that strong of a reaction given his reaction to her in the Asa Fox episode? The only reason Mary wouldn't have expected a strong response from Dean is that she doesn't know him and that's because she hasn't taken the time to get to know him which is exactly what his beef is with her along with her lying about BMOL. IMO, Mary is too busy trying to be right about her BMOL decision that she can't even see Dean's deep suffering in that moment. Hooo boy, Mary is on my crap list LOL 6 Link to comment
SueB March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 23 minutes ago, catrox14 said: I know I saw that too. But that is not what I'm talking about. I'm not being clear. She did not acknowledge his suffering TO HIS FACE. A look that was self serving because she then resumed her own "That's not how it is" garbage. I should have prefaced my comment by saying I watched that scene literally 10 times. I already understood all the perspectives but that doesn't really change my opinion and objection. Honestly. I have NO sympathy for Mary here. I don't really care that she went off and was so upset and texting from her bunk in the BMOLOL. IMO, Mary is a coward when it comes to her children IMO. She can't deal with them. Dean was angry and yet at his most vulnerable by confessing his pain. And she did nothing to help him or provide him comfort in that moment TO HIS FACE. If she couldn't stop in that moment, in his space, to give him some kind of comfort, well, fuck her. And IF SHE DID, and the director/editor didn't include it and opted for this stupid time jump editing that really served no purpose, then IMO that is horrible storytelling. Even in the texting IMO if she really was concerned about him, she could have texted.'Dean, I'm sorry. I had no idea how bad it was for you. Let's talk about it". But Mary doesn't want to talk about anything personal with Dean. IMO. Sorry, Sue. I appreciate your effort but it doesn't change much for me. emphasis mine -- she didn't get a chance to immediately respond after the "I never was." Dean immediately carries on with "So between us and them" and THAT's when she puts in 'It's not like that." Her focus was countering Dean drawing sides (Us or Them). I'm not trying to change your anger at Mary. Honestly, I agree with you on that. But I don't think it's fair to say she ignored it. I think she did in fact HEAR what he said and the reaction came later. I'm also saying that in the heat of such an emotional argument, you don't always say everything you should or WANT to say. IMO this argument was Dean: +1000 and Mary: 0. He pretty much slaughtered her from a debate perspective. And I was cheering the WHOLE time. She truly deserved it. 18 minutes ago, catrox14 said: What makes you think Dean stopped listening here? Dean didn't take a DUMP on her. He told her exactly how HER absences and choices have affected him. It's making it seem like he has NO legitimate beef. Why wouldn't Mary have expected that strong of a reaction given his reaction to her in the Asa Fox episode? The only reason Mary wouldn't have expected a strong response from Dean is that she doesn't know him and that's because she hasn't taken the time to get to know him which is exactly what his beef is with her along with her lying about BMOL. IMO, Mary is too busy trying to be right about her BMOL decision that she can't even see Dean's deep suffering in that moment. Hooo boy, Mary is on my crap list LOL I mean he unloaded on her: double barrels right in the face. AND SHE DESERVED IT. My only point is that in an argument, it's hard to take a face shot and maintain coherent thought. I think you have misunderstood me. Mary TOTALLY EARNED THAT VERBAL SMACKDOWN. She was self-centered and Dean made his point very effectively. The point where I think we disagree is: I think Mary DID understand what Dean was saying. It took a couple of days, but she got the bulk of message. And her first words to Sam were "I messed up." when Sam came to see her. I have no doubt that if Dean came to see her in that same moment, he would have got the same words. Instead, because Dean comes in after a massive battle has just taken place, Mary is in a different headspace. And she thinks Sam is listening more. Subsequently, because I think Mary ACCEPTS the bulk of Dean's accusations, I think she will approach her relationship with him differently in the future. We just didn't get to see that yet. 3 Link to comment
MysteryGuest March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 Part of the issue here is that we still don't know what, or how much Mary knows about the boy's lives. I know they told her basic information at the very beginning, but did they leave things out so as not to overwhelm her at that point? Obviously, she's met Cas, but can we assume that she's been told everything about how they came to know him? Logic would indicate that they did, but they have spent so little time together that I can't be sure. Dean doesn't want anyone to feel sorry for him and the life he's led. He's never asked for that. But as his mother, and as the person whose actions, however innocently, led to him never having that childhood, I would think her reaction to his words would have been different. She may have been a hunter, but she wasn't a soldier. She was a young woman who listened to music and dreamed about the life she'd have with the man she loved. About the children they'd have together. They might as well have created an entirely new character for as much as this Mary Winchester has in common with the Mary Winchester we were shown over the course of the past 12 years. 7 Link to comment
SueB March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said: Part of the issue here is that we still don't know what, or how much Mary knows about the boy's lives. I know they told her basic information at the very beginning, but did they leave things out so as not to overwhelm her at that point? Obviously, she's met Cas, but can we assume that she's been told everything about how they came to know him? Logic would indicate that they did, but they have spent so little time together that I can't be sure. Dean doesn't want anyone to feel sorry for him and the life he's led. He's never asked for that. But as his mother, and as the person whose actions, however innocently, led to him never having that childhood, I would think her reaction to his words would have been different. She may have been a hunter, but she wasn't a soldier. She was a young woman who listened to music and dreamed about the life she'd have with the man she loved. About the children they'd have together. They might as well have created an entirely new character for as much as this Mary Winchester has in common with the Mary Winchester we were shown over the course of the past 12 years. I agree -- not knowing how much she understands is an issue. AND it pisses me off that we haven't seen her ASK. It's like she's running away from the impact of her death. My point was that at the time of the argument, she was in no headspace to respond appropriately and didn't actually have an opportunity to react properly as he kept on talking about "us vs them". I'm hoping the "I never was." comes up again (by being brought up by her or Sam). 1 Link to comment
catrox14 March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 8 minutes ago, SueB said: was." Dean immediately carries on with "So between us and them" and THAT's when she puts in 'It's not like that." Her focus was countering Dean drawing sides (Us or Them). The moment Dean said "I never was" was Mary's chance to stop and hear him. She didn't do that. He paused. He didn't roll into the So between us and them. 1 Link to comment
SueB March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, catrox14 said: The moment Dean said "I never was" was Mary's chance to stop and hear him. She didn't do that. He paused. He didn't roll into the So between us and them. Debatable. We'll just agree to disagree on this one. I think you have to factor in it came at the end of a long emotional argument. But I agree, if she was on her A-game, she could have stopped him with "what's THAT supposed to mean." and she didn't. I don't think she was remotely near her A-game. And honestly, Dean had already (IMO) put her reeling. She got in ONE counter-punch (the mis-directed, "I'm not JUST a Mom" speech). Everything else was one step above splutter IMO. Edited March 4, 2017 by SueB Link to comment
catrox14 March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 2 minutes ago, SueB said: Debatable. We'll just agree to disagree on this one. I think you have to factor in it came at the end of a long emotional argument. But I agree, if she was on her A-game, she could have stopped him with "what's THAT supposed to mean." and she didn't. I don't think she was remotely near her A-game. And honestly, Dean had already (IMO) put her reeling. She got in ONE counter-punch (the mis-directed, "I'm not JUST a Mom" speech). Everything else was one step above splutter IMO. See I didn't get any kind of "Splutter" from Mary. Maybe that's the difference. I got stubborn, unmoving bent on getting HER point across about the BMOL. Heh, I guess we can see where Dean gets the stubborn side from. So yes they were both being stubborn but my sympathies do not lie with Mary and they lie with Dean and Sam. I also think much of Dean's anger was him speaking for Sam here and his rage when he realized Mary lies almost got his BFF killed. That's not a thing Dean can abide from most people but it's his Mom so he's giving her a lot of leeway. He allowed himself to be vulnerable when she tried use "You're not a child" to defend her poor choices. IMO Dean was not being defensive. He was telling her the truth of his life that she either doesn't know, doesn't want to know or is actively avoiding. The rest of the problem IMO is that using the flashback/flashforward way of showing that argument robbed it of it's emotional resonance. I feel like they are trying to be clever in editing to cover up paper thin writing. 2 Link to comment
SueB March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 Paper thin writing? Wow. We REALLY disagree on that one. I thought that scene was perfect and BRUTAL. It's just the kind of reaction I wanted Sam and Dean to have. And I'm fine with Mary looking bad in the argument. She SHOULD look bad. I found that argument to be one of the best written scenes -- definitely in S12 and possibly in the top 10 in the series. 5 Link to comment
MysteryGuest March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 I was happy with the scene. In fact, I was thrilled last night while watching it. It was exhilarating to finally have Dean get that off his chest, and have both he and Sam in lock-step agreement. I have to say I loved that part. It's the writing for Mary's character that I'm not happy with. For the most part, I was loving the whole episode (with a few minor exceptions) until the end scene where Sam agrees to sign up. Sadly, that scene alone has sort of ruined the feel of the whole episode for me. I'm really hoping that those who think Sam has a master plan are absolutely right. Otherwise, this will be an episode I can't really re-watch more than a few scenes of, and that would be too bad, considering it was one of the better episodes this season. 5 Link to comment
catrox14 March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 (edited) 18 minutes ago, SueB said: Paper thin writing? Wow. We REALLY disagree on that one. I thought that scene was perfect and BRUTAL. It's just the kind of reaction I wanted Sam and Dean to have. And I'm fine with Mary looking bad in the argument. She SHOULD look bad. On my first watch I thought the writing was great until the end undid the beginning. Upon a couple of rewatches IMO Berens was really pulling a bait and switch with Dean. IMO, Berens was not trying to eviscerate Mary but more to show her as being right and correct about her position given that in the end Dean was made to apologize/alter and learn a lesson that was only set up because of Berens pivoted Dean's legitimate beef with Mary's lies that got them almost all killed into being all about Mary just not being the Mom he wanted her to be (which is not what has been implied throughout the season). ETA: I'll eat my words if the writing staff actually does something with this important moment for Dean but honestly, I don't think they will. Edited March 4, 2017 by catrox14 5 Link to comment
SueB March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 (edited) 6 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said: I was happy with the scene. In fact, I was thrilled last night while watching it. It was exhilarating to finally have Dean get that off his chest, and have both he and Sam in lock-step agreement. I have to say I loved that part. It's the writing for Mary's character that I'm not happy with. For the most part, I was loving the whole episode (with a few minor exceptions) until the end scene where Sam agrees to sign up. Sadly, that scene alone has sort of ruined the feel of the whole episode for me. I'm really hoping that those who think Sam has a master plan are absolutely right. Otherwise, this will be an episode I can't really re-watch more than a few scenes of, and that would be too bad, considering it was one of the better episodes this season. I know EXACTLY what you mean. @catrox14 I think I have MUCH more faith in Berens than you. That's okay. Until/unless it's proven differently, I understand your POV. Edited March 4, 2017 by SueB Link to comment
rue721 March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 8 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said: Mary just walked right in also. So I guess she has a key. Which means they would have had to replicate the original some how. Maybe they keep the door unlocked. ;) In other words, maybe the warding is too much of a hassle, so they just turned off the security system and put the front door on a latch. 8 hours ago, catrox14 said: It's actually kind of offensive to me that Berens shifted Dean's legitimate ACTUAL issue with Mary to an issue that was never shown to exist thus far and is not a viewpoint that Dean has epoused towards hunter Moms (see ellen and jodi). The only reason I can see for it's existence was to reiterate the "Mary is more than a Mom" mantra that the boys ALREADY KNOW. It's propping Mary at Dean's expense. Mary hasn't been shown to be any thing but an absentee birth mother to the boys thus far. Dean probably does have a longing to really connect and attach to Mary but not in the fucking ridiculous stereotype that Berens assigned to Dean there. Dean was trying to make up with Mary when he "apologized," so he could have just been telling her what she wants to hear. *Mary* apparently thinks that the issue is that she isn't the mother that Dean wanted/expected, so when Dean made up to her, he reassured her that that's OK. Dean seemed pretty self-aware when he lit into Mary at the top of the episode. He also seemed pretty self-aware at the end of the episode when he told Mary that he realized that he wasn't going to be keep freezing her out if he knew she was in danger. So I think it's pretty possible that Dean is keeping his feelings to himself and making nice with Mary in order to keep from creating a rift with her that could leave her dead. Time will have to tell, I guess I just see it as a possibility that Dean's "apology" was made for pragmatic reasons -- and not so much because *he* is meant to think that the lesson he's learned and the resolution to the problems between him and Mary is that it's too late for Mary to play "mommy" to him. 7 hours ago, companionenvy said: And, for me, there simply isn't enough evidence that Sam and Dean have seen that would justify totally dismissing the BMOL. It becomes less believable when we're supposed to assume that Mary Winchester is essentially the only American hunter who has listened to them. High handed as they are, they seem to get results. And plenty of hunters wouldn't have moral scruples about monster genocide. YMMV but I really don't know that we have solid evidence that they do get results. The BMOL make claims, but they never seem able to back up those claims. So far, everything that we know that the BMOL has touched has turned to shit or been a total amateur hour production. Kidnapping and torturing Sam and getting nowhere with him. Needing to use Mary and her band of (unwitting) merry men to steal the Colt. Barely surviving a vampire attack at their own stronghold/armory. Even their claims about what has gone on in England have not been verified by outside sources AFAIK. Not even saying these claims are necessarily false, just that IMO they're meaningless without back up. Personally, I think everything we've seen makes it seem like the BMOL are a mess who couldn't find their own way out of a paper bag. Anyway, IMO the most compelling evidence that the BMOL actually do get results is that Sam couldn't come up with a case for Dean and him to work. But that didn't get linked to the BMOL within the episode, so it's hard to know if that's meant to mean anything at all about them. 7 hours ago, ZennyKenny said: "Hi, we're the BMoL. We're so efficient at what we do that we've completely wiped out all of the monsters in our country, but somehow we're completely unprepared to defend ourselves against said monsters because apparently across the pond they just sit still & look pretty while we kill them from a distance or something." I think that the BMOL were testing Mary's willingness to obey and her ability to hunt when they gave her the Colt mission. I think that they were doing the same thing with Sam in this most recent vamp attack. So I don't think that their response to those missions/hunts was necessarily characteristic. That said, they still come off as completely stupid and inept to me, so I don't really disagree with what you're saying. Also, I think maybe Dean was likewise getting a feel for and testing Mr K when he went vampire hunting with him. IMO that's why he let Ketch blab on and on at the bunker, and why he finally just put a stop to the beating of the vampire girl -- he was getting intel, and when he felt he'd gotten enough, he was ready to put a stop to things and move on. 7 hours ago, SueB said: Sam also gets that Dean is not going to be able to freeze Mary out and, like Sammy, he's going to protect her if he can. Which means Sam knows Mary is a weakspot for Dean (emotionally). I think Sam believes Mary is in over her head and is still confused on how to relate to the boys He believes she loves them (IMO) but is going about showing it in a 'mission impossible' way. I'm not so sure that Sam is more confident than Dean that Mary loves them. I mean maybe he is -- but I'm not seeing where you're getting that? I also think that Mary is a weak spot for Sam in the exact same way she is for Dean...Mary manipulated Sam by telling him she needed him "urgently," so I guess that at least SHE realizes that she's a weak spot for Sam in that way. I think she didn't realize at that point that Dean would also respond in the way that Sam did, because Dean had been so angry with her -- but at the end of the episode Dean said that they both do, so I guess she knows now. 56 minutes ago, catrox14 said: Even in the texting IMO if she really was concerned about him, she could have texted.'Dean, I'm sorry. I had no idea how bad it was for you. Let's talk about it". But Mary doesn't want to talk about anything personal with Dean. IMO. I agree that Mary doesn't want to talk about anything personal with Dean. She is not trying to have deep talks. Maybe she herself is not that deep, I dunno. Maybe it hurt her to hear that Dean was upset with her for wanting space from him and Sam, but on the other hand, she really did/does want space from them. It's not like at the end of the episode she was asking to move back in, lol. This is kind of harsh, but I feel like she really does just call them up when she needs them, and even then, it's the BMOL putting pressure on her to recruit them that is the real catalyst for her reaching out. I'm very confused about how she's feeling. She seems to not feel anything much for anybody and that's very confusing to me. I mean, I assume she DOES feel things but I wish that we got more insight into her head so that I wouldn't have to guess. I feel like this is Sam's storyline from S4 all over again. 48 minutes ago, Macbeth said: I don't understand it either. They can't report him to the police. He has to die. He was siding with the monsters for money. The episode made a big point of Sam helping save Mick, and of Dean putting a stop to needless torture of a vampire, so I think that we're meant to see them being OK with the hunter being led off in chains as pretty weird. Also, Sam and Dean have dealt with rogue hunters before -- Asa Fox's friend and Gordon spring to mind. As difficult as dealing with rogue hunters might be, those rogues are still human and don't have to be dealt with using the tools/methods/people that are used on supernatural beings. Just a totally different kettle of fish IMO. Hopefully we find out more about that random hunter's fate (sorry, forget his name). I had just assumed the worst, but maybe he got led off to a BMOL black site? Not that that's much better, I dunno. 21 minutes ago, SueB said: The point where I think we disagree is: I think Mary DID understand what Dean was saying. It took a couple of days, but she got the bulk of message. And her first words to Sam were "I messed up." when Sam came to see her. I have no doubt that if Dean came to see her in that same moment, he would have got the same words. Instead, because Dean comes in after a massive battle has just taken place, Mary is in a different headspace. And she thinks Sam is listening more. Subsequently, because I think Mary ACCEPTS the bulk of Dean's accusations, I think she will approach her relationship with him differently in the future. We just didn't get to see that yet. Mary was also manipulating Sam. IMO she was clearly on a recruitment drive on behalf of the BMOL during most/all of this episode, and this also wouldn't be the first time she'd attempted to manipulate on behalf of the BMOL either (see: mission to steal the Colt). So I don't give her words a whole lot of credibility. I think she DOES know that she messed up, but I think she most likely chose her words based on what she thought would have the most/desired impact on Sam rather than on what she herself necessarily felt. To be fair, I don't know that Mary necessarily even knows what she feels, let alone is self-aware enough to have the ability to communicate to others what she's feeling. 4 Link to comment
Dobian March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 (edited) On 3/2/2017 at 6:04 PM, catrox14 said: And Sam is okay with 'rogue' hunters being "handled". WTF is that shit about. Well, not rogue hunters but a specific rogue hunter who cold-cocked their mom and was trying to serve them up to some vampires for dinner. If that was me, I wouldn't mind this rogue being "handled" either. Edited March 4, 2017 by Dobian 2 Link to comment
SueB March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 (edited) 25 minutes ago, rue721 said: <<<topic 1>>> Dean was trying to make up with Mary when he "apologized," so he could have just been telling her what she wants to hear. *Mary* apparently thinks that the issue is that she isn't the mother that Dean wanted/expected, so when Dean made up to her, he reassured her that that's OK. Dean seemed pretty self-aware when he lit into Mary at the top of the episode. He also seemed pretty self-aware at the end of the episode when he told Mary that he realized that he wasn't going to be keep freezing her out if he knew she was in danger. So I think it's pretty possible that Dean is keeping his feelings to himself and making nice with Mary in order to keep from creating a rift with her that could leave her dead. Time will have to tell, I guess I just see it as a possibility that Dean's "apology" was made for pragmatic reasons -- and not so much because *he* is meant to think that the lesson he's learned and the resolution to the problems between him and Mary is that it's too late for Mary to play "mommy" to him. <<<topic 2>>> YMMV but I really don't know that we have solid evidence that they do get results. The BMOL make claims, but they never seem able to back up those claims. So far, everything that we know that the BMOL has touched has turned to shit or been a total amateur hour production. Kidnapping and torturing Sam and getting nowhere with him. Needing to use Mary and her band of (unwitting) merry men to steal the Colt. Barely surviving a vampire attack at their own stronghold/armory. Even their claims about what has gone on in England have not been verified by outside sources AFAIK. Not even saying these claims are necessarily false, just that IMO they're meaningless without back up. Personally, I think everything we've seen makes it seem like the BMOL are a mess who couldn't find their own way out of a paper bag. Anyway, IMO the most compelling evidence that the BMOL actually do get results is that Sam couldn't come up with a case for Dean and him to work. But that didn't get linked to the BMOL within the episode, so it's hard to know if that's meant to mean anything at all about them. <<<topic 3>>> I think that the BMOL were testing Mary's willingness to obey and her ability to hunt when they gave her the Colt mission. I think that they were doing the same thing with Sam in this most recent vamp attack. So I don't think that their response to those missions/hunts was necessarily characteristic. That said, they still come off as completely stupid and inept to me, so I don't really disagree with what you're saying. Also, I think maybe Dean was likewise getting a feel for and testing Mr K when he went vampire hunting with him. IMO that's why he let Ketch blab on and on at the bunker, and why he finally just put a stop to the beating of the vampire girl -- he was getting intel, and when he felt he'd gotten enough, he was ready to put a stop to things and move on. <<<topic 4>>> I'm not so sure that Sam is more confident than Dean that Mary loves them. I mean maybe he is -- but I'm not seeing where you're getting that? <<<topic 5>>> I also think that Mary is a weak spot for Sam in the exact same way she is for Dean...Mary manipulated Sam by telling him she needed him "urgently," so I guess that at least SHE realizes that she's a weak spot for Sam in that way. I think she didn't realize at that point that Dean would also respond in the way that Sam did, because Dean had been so angry with her -- but at the end of the episode Dean said that they both do, so I guess she knows now. I agree that Mary doesn't want to talk about anything personal with Dean. She is not trying to have deep talks. Maybe she herself is not that deep, I dunno. <<<topic 6>>> Maybe it hurt her to hear that Dean was upset with her for wanting space from him and Sam, but on the other hand, she really did/does want space from them. It's not like at the end of the episode she was asking to move back in, lol. This is kind of harsh, but I feel like she really does just call them up when she needs them, and even then, it's the BMOL putting pressure on her to recruit them that is the real catalyst for her reaching out. I'm very confused about how she's feeling. She seems to not feel anything much for anybody and that's very confusing to me. I mean, I assume she DOES feel things but I wish that we got more insight into her head so that I wouldn't have to guess. I feel like this is Sam's storyline from S4 all over again. <<<topic 7>>> The episode made a big point of Sam helping save Mick, and of Dean putting a stop to needless torture of a vampire, so I think that we're meant to see them being OK with the hunter being led off in chains as pretty weird. Also, Sam and Dean have dealt with rogue hunters before -- Asa Fox's friend and Gordon spring to mind. As difficult as dealing with rogue hunters might be, those rogues are still human and don't have to be dealt with using the tools/methods/people that are used on supernatural beings. Just a totally different kettle of fish IMO. Hopefully we find out more about that random hunter's fate (sorry, forget his name). I had just assumed the worst, but maybe he got led off to a BMOL black site? Not that that's much better, I dunno. Mary was also manipulating Sam. IMO she was clearly on a recruitment drive on behalf of the BMOL during most/all of this episode, and this also wouldn't be the first time she'd attempted to manipulate on behalf of the BMOL either (see: mission to steal the Colt). So I don't give her words a whole lot of credibility. I think she DOES know that she messed up, but I think she most likely chose her words based on what she thought would have the most/desired impact on Sam rather than on what she herself necessarily felt. <<<topic 8 >>> To be fair, I don't know that Mary necessarily even knows what she feels, let alone is self-aware enough to have the ability to communicate to others what she's feeling. Topic number and emphasis mine. Excellent Post! I had to digest it bit by bit. Topic: 1. I LOVE this observation. Yes. That tracks with the more self-aware and mature Dean we've seen. He's still VERY upset, but he's not apologizing inaccurately, he's apologizing expediently. I like that. 2. The grenade launcher, the possession "egg" and the Infrared Satellite were all effective. The Infrared Satellite was PARTICULARLY impressive because of their ability to get it redirected in short order and accuracy. Also, Mary is backing up that they killed all but 11 of the 241. THAT was the bit that impressed Sam. So, they get points in my book for some talents. 3. Agree. I appreciated that this came across as MUCH more than "Dean like whiskey, Dean like kill." Dean was judging Ketch the whole time and the script and acting made that evident. 4. I think that while Sam can definitely be extremely hurt by Mary (his reaction to the Colt was PERFECT), I think he can compartmentalize enough to also step back and look at what Mary is doing. He reacts to her both as a mother but also as a person struggling with her existence. My sense is that his style is to do more analysis of Mary, independent of his hurt, than Dean does. It probably helps him to manage his hurt as well. And he's now seen her "thesis" of "exterminate all the monsters", so he can see how she has rationalized her actions. He may even recognize that they are rationalizations and not as driving as Mary claims they are. But I think he believes SHE believes it. 5. Agreed. Mary is acting less self-aware than Dean was even back in S1. 6. And THERE'S the issue. Practically, I get why not (meta issue of Mary film schedule). But emotionally, moving back in when the BMoL place was destroyed would have been the right answer. Is she running from future conflict? WHY not come 'home'? Or does she come home and we get "Mom is taking a needed break for a few days" before the next hunt (like when Cas is at the bunker but we don't see him)? 7. Agreed. This genocidal approach is NOT going to be long-term sustained. Maybe more effective hunting but black and white wipe-out is not going to stick. Especially since they've shown us the sketchy collateral damage moments earlier this year. 8. Agreed. In both 'years alive' and self-awareness, Mary is younger than both Sam and Dean. Edited March 4, 2017 by SueB 3 Link to comment
catrox14 March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 6 minutes ago, Dobian said: Well, not rogue hunters but a specific rogue hunter who cold-cocked their mom and was trying to serve them up to some vampires for dinner. If that was me, I wouldn't mind this rogue being "handled" either. I understand that specific circumstance but that wasn't just about that one guy. It seemed pretty clear to me that is a SOP for the BMOL to torture/handle rogue hunters. They didn't say it was limited to this one traitor hunter. Link to comment
bearcatfan March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 I can't help but wonder if Sam's "I'm in" was more "You people are going to get my mom killed if I don't watch her back" than actually buying in to what they are selling. He knows their intel is crap. They thought the Alpha Vamp had been out of the country for over a decade. Sam saw him last in North Dakota 5 years ago and said as much. 4 Link to comment
SueB March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 1 minute ago, bearcatfan said: I can't help but wonder if Sam's "I'm in" was more "You people are going to get my mom killed if I don't watch her back" than actually buying in to what they are selling. He knows their intel is crap. They thought the Alpha Vamp had been out of the country for over a decade. Sam saw him last in North Dakota 5 years ago and said as much. I think that's DEFINITELY at least a part of his motivation. And he's not wrong. They suck as hunters. They have good gadgets and some ability to coordinate, but their intel has been shit. 1 Link to comment
catrox14 March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 4 minutes ago, SueB said: OVE this observation. Yes. That tracks with the more self-aware and mature Dean we've seen. He's still VERY upset, but he's not apologizing inaccurately, he's apologizing expediently. I like that. I could live with this interpretation if not for the stupid words Berens put in Dean's mouth. Quote “It’s not your job to make my lunch and kiss me goodnight… We’re adults… You gotta make your own choices even if I don’t like ‘em.” It's not Dean saying, "Mom. I came here because I was worried about you. Even though I do not agree this decision...like AT ALL. I want you to be safe". Boom, Done. Dean isn't making other comments about how Mary should Mom in the most superficial manner. But NOPE gotta learn some lesson that wasn't being taught all season. Blergh 2 Link to comment
rue721 March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 (edited) 23 minutes ago, SueB said: The grenade launcher, the possession "egg" and the Infrared Satellite were all effective. The Infrared Satellite was PARTICULARLY impressive because of their ability to get it redirected in short order and accuracy. Also, Mary is backing up that they killed all but 11 of the 241. THAT was the bit that impressed Sam. So, they get points in my book for some talents. Still reading your post, but just wanted to pipe in for now that IMO the use of the egg wasn't successful. They pulled Lucifer out of his host, but then he just went into an airduct and is now in Crowley's abandoned nuthouse...*ahem*...I mean, Crowley's "palace." In general, it seems like the best thing that the BMOL have got is their tech, which has the POTENTIAL to be useful and at least seems to be "scientifically" sound. Their subject matter experts also seemed like a great resource. But the BMOL have not been shown as being that effective at actually using their tech. (I keep thinking about how this is the season that they decided to do a Hitler episode. This aspect of the BMOL does remind me of the Nazis. I mean, excellent and ingenious tech that they then put to use in the worst or even stupidest possible ways). And IMO their weakest point is their TERRIBLE surveillance. Just how they've handled surveillance on Sam and Dean has been a travesty. And honestly, wouldn't THEY be pushing Mary to move back in with her sons? Good old fashioned spying still works, lol. It seems like they can't even effectively manage the ONE "asset" they have among US hunters, Mary. Regarding their claims about their kill count: I also don't trust any info coming from Mary. Even if she believes that she's telling the truth, she clearly is not strong in the critical thinking department. Like I said, it's not that I think those claims are necessarily false, I just don't think they've been sufficiently verified. YMMV, but I'm also assuming that the BMOL are the kind of organization that would, as a matter of routine, be churning out propaganda. At best, they're in "sales" right now, since they're supposedly in recruitment mode. So they're not necessarily interested in communicating the truth, they're probably more interested in communicating the most effective pitch. I DO however, trust info that is coming from sources truly external to the BMOL, like local newspapers. I do think that it's possible that the BMOL are effectively culling monsters seeing as Sam couldn't find evidence of any ongoing cases. ETA: I have no idea how trustworthy Sam is supposed to be finding the BMOL in terms of things like kill count, intel, etc. Dean was apparently doing intel of his own by getting a feel for Ketch, so I'm guessing that he's going to rely on what he himself sees/hears/knows. But Sam can be a little bit of a wildcard in that department. 6 minutes ago, catrox14 said: I could live with this interpretation if not for the stupid words Berens put in Dean's mouth. Quote “It’s not your job to make my lunch and kiss me goodnight… We’re adults… You gotta make your own choices even if I don’t like ‘em.” It's not Dean saying, "Mom. I came here because I was worried about you. Even though I do not agree this decision...like AT ALL. I want you to be safe". Boom, Done. Dean isn't making other comments about how Mary should Mom in the most superficial manner. But NOPE gotta learn some lesson that wasn't being taught all season. Blergh I don't think it's Dean that needed to learn that lesson, because I thought he was saying he understood that she wasn't going to play "mommy" right at the beginning of the episode, when he said that he hadn't had a childhood. IMO that was the point of that line. Not to start a discussion with her about the deprivations he'd had growing up or whatever, but more to tell her that yeah, he understood the "no mom" thing just fine, thanks. I think he was saying that Mary really doesn't have to ~worry~ about him not getting it that nobody is going to "mommy" him, because he learned that lesson a long, long time ago. Aka, around 1983. But I think that, over the course of the episode, Dean maybe realized that *Mary* didn't understand that, and that's why at the end of the episode, he flat out told her that it's OK and not an issue that she isn't going to play "mommy." Edited March 4, 2017 by rue721 3 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 4 minutes ago, SueB said: 2. The grenade launcher, the possession "egg" and the Infrared Satellite were all effective. The Infrared Satellite was PARTICULARLY impressive because of their ability to get it redirected in short order and accuracy. Also, Mary is backing up that they killed all but 11 of the 241. THAT was the bit that impressed Sam. So, they get points in my book for some talents. But as per my post above, I have serious questions about this. See below... 12 minutes ago, SueB said: I think that's DEFINITELY at least a part of his motivation. And he's not wrong. They suck as hunters. They have good gadgets and some ability to coordinate, but their intel has been shit. Ah, so you agree about their intel being shit... which is interesting since supposedly - according to them anyway - this is how they found all the vampires and efficiently killed them, so I'm still dubious as to how exactly they killed the vamps. I also question just how good their ability to coordinate is considering that once Mr. Ketch found out the vampires were gone and where they were going, shouldn't he have been warning someone about that, before riding back to the compound to get there too late to save a bunch of their people? Were the vamps somehow able to mess up communication - and would that include cell phones? Shouldn't they have something else then to communicate with that's less easy to mess up? Yeah, I'm not so convinced of their coordinating skills either, though apparently in their headquarters at least there aren't really that many people left to coordinate - because they got a bunch of them killed. I'm starting to wonder how much "tech" is in those gadgets versus some kind of magic. And if some of them are magic - as obviously for example the Colt bullets are - is their a price to those or a dubious way they acquired the magic. I'm concerned that the big guys in charge are something awful. I remember that the leviathans wanted to get rid of all of the other monsters, too, but that didn't make them good guys. 2 Link to comment
catrox14 March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 (edited) 39 minutes ago, rue721 said: I don't think it's Dean that needed to learn that lesson, because I thought he was saying he understood that she wasn't going to play "mommy" right at the beginning of the episode, when he said that he hadn't had a childhood. IMO that was the point of that line. Not to start a discussion with her about the deprivations he'd had growing up or whatever, but more to tell her that yeah, he understood the "no mom" thing just fine, thanks. I think he was saying that Mary really doesn't have to ~worry~ about him not getting it that nobody is going to "mommy" him, because he learned that lesson a long, long time ago. Aka, around 1983. But I think that, over the course of the episode, Dean maybe realized that *Mary* didn't understand that, and that's why at the end of the episode, he flat out told her that it's OK and not an issue that she isn't going to play "mommy." That doesn't jive either because it's a totally manufactured issue that Dean never had to begin with. IT WAS NEVER A THING but Dean is the one having to say that he won't expect that thing from her that he never expected from her at all anyway. It doesn't make sense. And if it was about Mary and her warped expectations why didn't she speak up and say, "I'm sorry Dean. I put an expectation on you that was in my own head". Edited March 4, 2017 by catrox14 1 Link to comment
rue721 March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 Just now, catrox14 said: That doesn't jive either because it's a totally manufactured issue that Dean never had to begin with. IT WAS NEVER A THING but Dean is the one having to say that he won't expect that thing from her that he never expected from her at all anyway. It doesn't make sense. Dean never expected it, MARY expected it. MARY has an issue with this. Both Mary and Sam kept telling Dean at various points to stop expecting Mary to "mommy" him, and I think that when Mary more or less said it AGAIN in this argument, Dean finally snapped back that he got it, thanks (by saying that he hadn't been a kid ever let alone was expecting to be treated as one now). But then I think he realized that even though HE didn't have this expectation or problem, it didn't mean it didn't exist -- it was an expectation/problem *for Mary.* So that's why he brought it up with her later, to put it to bed and to tell her to stop worrying about it. 3 Link to comment
catrox14 March 4, 2017 Share March 4, 2017 2 minutes ago, rue721 said: Dean never expected it, MARY expected it. MARY has an issue with this. I understand that is what you meant. I don't concur with that interpretation based on the dialogue and how Jensen played it. IMO, Dean was acting apologetically. Quote Dean: When I thought something might have happened to you...nothing else mattered. Mary: Dean, about the things I said.. Dean: No...Mom...you were (Dean shakes his head) It’s not your job to make my lunch. Kiss me goodnight,...it's ....We’re adults. ] You’re gonna make your own choices even if I don’t like 'em. Even if I really... really don’t like 'em. So that’s just something I’m gonna have to get used to....Okay, Mom? Mary: Okay, yeah. IMO, if the intention was to show Mary's faulty perception why not just have him say "Look, Mom. I never expected those things that you seem to think I did. We never expected you to be JUST A MOM or make me sandwiches.I just wanted you to be with us a little bit more", especially given Dean's forthright and direct manner he's shown this year with speaking his mind why would he stop being forthright in that moment? If Dean was saying that for Mary's benefit, I don't think it quite meshes with Dean's almost sheepish and apologetic tone, IMO. YMMV 3 Link to comment
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