S12.E14: The Raid

[Myrelle]

11 hours ago, Lemuria said:

I'm just going to hold onto what Dean told God to get Chuck to apologize to Lucifer:  That you didn't even really have to mean it; he did it all the time!  

HA! I love this! ;-)

[ILoveReading]

7 hours ago, Wynne88 said:

This time it was kind of necessary, wasn't it?  I'm thinking this is the episode they were filming when his twins were born.  Given the relatively small amount of time he filmed, I thought they got a fair bit of mileage out of him.

For me, there is a difference between being on screen and being relevant.  It's not that it's Dean light, its that its Dean unnecessary.  You could have given Jensen all 8 days off and it doesn't make a difference to the episode.  Nothing Dean said or did changed the outcome.

Jensen only filmed two days during Mother's Little Helper.  Despite that they still furthered Dean's Mark of Cain storyline by having Crowley test him while Sam was off hunting.  

With this ep, it feels like they sent Dean off with Ketch just to get rid of him.   This is also the 2nd time Dean didn't arrive until after everything was said and done.  They could have showed a brief scene of Dean and Ketch taking care of some vampires outside the facility or something instead of making it look like Dean's suddenly decided to take the scenic route to every hunt. 

2 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Yup. Me too. But predictable, predictable, predictable. It's all so old. I FFed through a lot of this one. I loved the opening scene. The Ackting was emmy-worthy in that scene. Even the writing of that one scene was good. I wish it would have ended there, though. Seriously. Because after that the writing crashed and burned completely.

And sorry, but I'm like 99.99999999...% sure that there's no plan whatsoever in place yet to take down the BMoL. Sam gave his reason for being all in. In the end, they took down the Alpha Vamp. The end justifies the means. Again. In fact, Sam will probably talk Dean into working with them-for a while, anyway-same as he did with Ruby. And Dean will try. Same as he did with Ruby. But the Dean scenes with Ketch, and his holding himself back from endorsing the torture of the rogue hunter give me hope that he's still the righteous man of this story-and this in spite of the fact that he's a functioning alcoholic who just can't seem to shake the thought/idea that he's little more than a killer at his core. Oh Dean.

Looks like Berens has now officially joined the school of Dabb and Perez writing.

I loved the Dean/Ketch scenes all the same. They said so much with no dialogue really necessary. So that should explain why I liked them.

Sorry that we lost the Alpha Vamp in such a crappy fashion and in such a crappy episode.

Can't wait for Mother Mary to go back to Heaven. Most disappointing storyline of the season right now to me and now just as bad and horribly written as Lucifer and the devil baby mama drama after this episode.

How much would I love it, if the cliff hanger, whatever happens Sam wakes up and finds a note from Dean that says, everyone else had their space so he decided he needs some too and he's just gone.  It will never happen though, even if I think its exactly what Dean needs.  He needs to get away from his family and their expectations of who he should be and find out just who he is and who he wants to be.  I've often seen metas and analysis written about how Sam needs to get out of Dean's shadow, but i've always felt the opposite.   His whole life has been "Watch out for Sammy.  Take care of your little brother boy."  More than anything I want to see Dean learn to watch out for Dean.  

We've had glimpses of that this season.  Its the one thing I've been enjoying.  Dean standing up for himself and having some self-worth.  I've been waiting for the other shoe to drop where Dean's just put back in his place of hand-wringer, chef and maid (because apparently Mary is too good for that).  I'm worried that next week we're going to get a return to that mind set for Dean.  Dean unloading on Mary was a joy to watch, but it was all undone at the end of the. 

I'm not expecting some secret plan either.  The writers have demonstrated time and time again how lazy they are.  (See above point about Dean suddenly not being able to arrive at hunts).  We haven't seen one scene where Dean wanted anything from Mary but suddenly he's sorry he thought she should be baking cookies.   I think Sam is really buying what they are saying.  I can see it playing out the like the Ruby story with Dean ending up apologizing for not thinking the HMSS are all that.

HMSS are legends only in their own minds.  They're intel was wrong, their base is useless, they suck at planning, and they can't react to to a situation that doesn't go according to plan (which they also can't do).  But Mary and now Sam are still singing their praises about how great and efficient and powerful they are.  Do the writers not realize how big a disconnect connect between the show and the tell is right now with these guys?

Suddenly all monsters are bad, and need to be eliminated?  That's been a huge part of SPN since 2.3.  To make this storyline line work they have to ignore it.  It's usually Sam whose advocating to give them a chance.   

When Ketch was hunting I wish Dean had brought up Benny.  After all the Men of Letters know about him.  He saved both Sam and Dean. 

I wish I could believe that this is going to come out, but I feel like Dabb really believes these Brits are just all that and are right. 

The problem is that with s13 guaranteed and a very strong possibility of s14, we know they can't get rid of monsters.   It's the trial storyline all over again.  

 I hope the writers remember Dean is good with symbols and have him attempt to find out what Mr. Ketch's tattoo means.  But at this point, Im hoping they remember to actually write him into episodes.

Edited March 3, 2017 by ILoveReading

[shang yiet]

Dean's had plenty of space. Mary is hardly ever around and it's not like he's tied to Sam. At least if Dean leaves, Sam can take a break from being peacemaker. He is in a dilemma too being forced to pick a side.  I know the BMol is bad news but Sam probably doesn't want to leave Mary on her own.

[Myrelle]

I just read the transcript of the apology and man, I now wish that they'd just left Jensen out of this one entirely. And why even show us that opening scene? It's like what? They thought we were going to feel sorry for her, but not him? What. A. Waste.

[Geordiegirl1967]

15 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

How much would I love it, if the cliff hanger, whatever happens Sam wakes up and finds a note from Dean that says, everyone else had their space so he decided he needs some too and he's just gone.  It will never happen though, even if I think its exactly what Dean needs.  He needs to get away from his family and their expectations of who he should be and find out just who he is and who he wants to be.  I've often seen metas and analysis written about how Sam needs to get out of Dean's shadow, but i've always felt the opposite.   His whole life has been "Watch out for Sammy.  Take care of your little brother boy."  More than anything I want to see Dean learn to watch out for Dean.

You are watching the wrong show if this is what you want, so you are always going to be disappointed. If Dean was a real person you might be able to argue your case (though I firmly believe, even if they were real, that their bond would be a strength not an unhealthy weakness). But SPN is a show with a central premis that, were it to change, would fundamentally change the nature of the show. SPN is the story of Dean and Sam - their bond and their struggles. If Dean 'went off to find himself' what exactly would we watch every week? I know what my, and lots of other peoples' answers would be; 'not Supernatural'.

I am all for Dean finding some self esteem but his relationship with Sam - which has already moved on to a much more equal footing of 2 adults rather than the quasi parent-child / caretaker relationship that it was in the beginning - is no barrier to that. Sam loves Dean for who he is and values him far more than Dean values himself. I simply don't get why some people, as you seem to, believe he needs to get away from Sam to be happy. He certainly doesn't believe that. All he needs in life to be contented, as he has said on the show, is for he and Sam to be fighting the good fight together.

26 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

HMSS are legends only in their own minds.  They're intel was wrong, their base is useless, they suck at planning, and they can't react to to a situation that doesn't go according to plan (which they also can't do).  But Mary and now Sam are still singing their praises about how great and efficient and powerful they are.  Do the writers not realize how big a disconnect connect between the show and the tell is right now with these guys?

I agree. They are all over the place with their writing of the BMoL. So many questions and inconsistencies;

• Was Toni B a rogue? When she was introduced every indication was that she was ordered to the US by the top brass in BMoL to deal with Dean & Sam who they thought were doing more harm than good. She was threatened with Ketch if she didn't succeed. Now Ketch says she was a rogue? I don't buy it. Either BMoL are running a long con or it is a retcon from the writers.
• Is Mick a pen pusher or a fighter? I had thought the latter until this week when it appears that he has never killed anyone/thing.
• If they came to destroy all monsters in the US with 1 capable fighter (Ketch), 1 boss man (Mick) and 2 young academic types who have never seen a monster, plus a couple of red shirts, then they are woefully under resourced. Yet we are told they've been really successful.
• They have efficiently and with no loss of life on their side entirely cleared the north west of the US of hundreds of vamps, thereby saving many hundreds more innocent lives. That's far more than 150+ years of US hunters have managed to do. That implies they are good at what they do, which was totally at odds with their reaction when their compound was attacked and, as you say, with their inept performance re the intel on Ramiel and the Alpha, and the poor security at their base.
• they haven't clearly articulate what D&Ss problem with the BMoL is. Of course Lady B tortured Sam. But they both (Sam by working with Mick et al and Dean by working with Ketch) appear to be buying the 'rogue' story now. I would have expected their arguments to be that not all monsters need killing (there are some good ones eg Garth, Lenore, Benny) and that the don't want to be told what to do by the BMoL hierarchy. But they haven't made those arguments. Sam said 'we do fine' with their current toolkit, which they do, but the MoL are better, or possibly worse - flips minute to minute. Dean just says 'we don't trust them'.

Quote

Suddenly all monsters are bad, and need to be eliminated?  That's been a huge part of SPN since 2.3.  To make this storyline line work they have to ignore it.  It's usually Sam whose advocating to give them a chance.

The characterisation of Sam is all over the shop. He stopped wanting a normal life and embraced his role as a hunter a long time ago. Now he is suddenly swayed by Mary's 'you could go back to school' argument? He was, as you say, always the more accepting of shades of grey among the monster world than Dean - yet now he is 'kill them all'? And (this is my biggest problem with the ep) he tells Mick "I'm in" without finding out how Dean feels about it. Sam might (though I don't think it is particularly credible) decide that the BMoL is the way he thinks THEY (i.e. he and Dean) should go. And he might try to talk Dean around to the idea. What he would NEVER do is commit just himself to something then hope he can persuade Dean. Because what if he can't? They are a team. He wouldn't leave Dean and go to work with the BMoL on his own. I LOATHED this scene.

Having said all of that there was quite a bit of the episode that I enjoyed. It was one of the better ones this season IMO.

[Mulva]

I loved the scene where Mary asked Sam about finishing his education.  For 12 years we've been told over and over again that Sam is THE WORST PERSON IN THE WORLD!!! for going off to college.  It's refreshing to see someone being proud of him for winning a scholarship and think that it was perfectly natural for him to accept it.

[Wayward Son]

I haven't had a chance to watch yet (boo time zones and being stuck in work), but from what I've read it sounds like a miracle of miracles has happened and this Sam fan is going to be firmly on Dean's side. 

[Boopsahoy]

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

but that's why it was weird at the end when they all just let the BMOL take that hunter away.

He collaborated with the vampires-they needed to at least question him. I had no problem with it. However if they said lets take him away to kill him,. well then maybe ....

[DittyDotDot]

You'd think it would take more than a bunch of shipping containers stacked together and a few computers to impress Sam. Did I miss the part where the BMoL were impressive?

Good on Dean for getting a drinking buddy, though. Whatever.

Personally, I've never had a stake in the Alpha. I mean, he's an interesting character played by a great actor, but only been in a couple episodes. It's not as if it changes the show now that he's dead.

So happy to have Sam and Dean working against each other again, because that shit never gets old... ::eye roll::

11 hours ago, Katy M said:

I hated all the gadgets.  I know already said that, but I can't reiterate enough.

I kept being reminded of Dean's words in No Rest for the Wicked while watching this one: "We take this knife, and we go after Lilith our way. The way Dad taught us to." 

In the end what saved the day is what John taught them, not the fancy toys. 

11 hours ago, Lemuria said:

So Sam got to see that their fancy base was "not built for defense," which was stupid.  (I mean, really?  Who builds a base from which you intend to hunt monsters and doesn't take into account the need for making its defensive capabilities formidable?)  That they had no backup plan, which was stupid.  That they kept the Colt even though they had no way of making bullets, which was useless.  And that they didn't approach Dean and Sam about it (they didn't have to tell them that they got the gun from Mary), even though if they know everything they said they did, they knew that the brothers and Bobby had found a way to re-arm the Colt--yet more stupid.

And yet, Sam still wants to join them.  Am I supposed to think that's smart?

If anything it should've shown Sam that they were idiots. I mean seriously.... .

11 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

Is this all supposed to be some deeper thing with Sam and his reaction to his Mom's return?  Dean is overtly reacting with his abandonment issue front and center.  Sam seems to be burying it and I'm expecting he'll lose it at some point. 

Is his joining the BMoL just a ploy to protect his Mom and keep her close?  Because finding out the BMoL are basically pencil pushers that send out Hunters and their BMoL equivalent to fight in the muck is the least inspiring reason to join up that I could have thought of.  Oh, and the torture... bygones.

I tried really hard to convince myself there was something more going on here, but neither option is sticking so far.

• Option one: Sam isn't really in, but figures they're idiots and it would be better to take over their operation than to let them continue to get more people killed. 
• Option two: Whatever spell Lady Toni did on Sam back at the beginning of the season wasn't just for torture but also made him susceptible to their sales pitches. 

Oh, I forgot my default option--haven't really needed it so much this season--BRAIN DAMAGE! Sam was clocked in the head with a board a couple episodes back... . ;)

11 hours ago, rue721 said:

I guess, but why did they want it NOW? They sent Mary after it like they actually had something in mind...?

If they just wanted to have it to have it, seems like they could at least have waited until they knew how to make the bullets before sending Mary in to fetch it.

I'm wondering if they wanted it because they knew that it was A Big Deal to the Winchesters and they want to use it as some kind of recruitment/loyalty/whatever tool. But who knows.

ETA:  On a meta level, I feel like the show pulled the Colt back into play because they're setting up a big Mary v. Last Surviving YED showdown.

I think they just wanted to study the Colt and find out what made it tick. I mean, I assumed the AVD (Anti Vamp Device) was just dead man's blood made airborne, or something like that. I'm guessing they wanted to find a way to make a more effective weapon from whatever made the Colt work.

11 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

Apparently hunters are not a forgiving lot.  Dean watched them drag the guy away, too, and didn't say a word.  In the Asa Fox episode, they were fully intent on shunning the hunter who's only real crime was lying about the accidental death of Asa.  He didn't kill the guy, but it didn't matter.  In this case, the hunter didn't just betray the BMOL, he was actively in cahoots with the Alpha Vamp, and had been for a while.  To me, that means he probably turned a blind eye on killings, since he was being paid off, so personally, this guy sort of deserved whatever he got.  But it was still an uncomfortable scene.  I don't like the implication that Sam and Dean are in the least bit ok with the murder of humans.

Yeah, I didn't have a problem with them hauling away the guy who Rufus apparently warned Sam about, especially after it was shown that he was complicit with the Alpha. I got the impression he was known to be "unreliable" throughout the hunting community.

11 hours ago, Katy M said:

At least Ketch knocked, everybody and everything else just walks in.

Nice to have a polite psychopath show up at your door, isn't it? ;)

10 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I didn't get the feeling that Sam is planning to lie to Dean (or even that he might feel it's necessary)...I thought that he was planning to talk to him and explain what he'd seen/thought.   I thought Dean's comment to Mary about being an adult and making [her] own decisions, even if he disagrees with it, meant that he would take that line with Sam as well.  So I could see them being on opposite sides, but I don't think either one is going to sneak around about it, especially after seeing how betrayed they both felt about Mary lying to them.  

Yeah, I'm thinking it won't be Sam sneaking around this time. I do worry about Dean getting double-teamed by both Mary and Sam. If I've learned one thing from this show, Dean Winchester doesn't bend to the current fad or to pressure. So, yeah, it may not be Sam sneaking around behind Dean's back, but I do think it will be pointless and unnecessary conflict between Sam and Dean.

[rue721]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

Option two: Whatever spell Lady Toni did on Sam back at the beginning of the season wasn't just for torture but also made him susceptible to their sales pitches.

Manchurian Candidate style? That would actually be pretty neat.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Nice to have a polite psychopath show up at your door, isn't it? ;)

LOL, probably.  But, that's not what I meant.  That MOL guy that gave the key to Sam told him that the bunker was impenetrable by every evil and could only be accessed with this one key.  Are we to believe that this is a key that the hardware store could copy?  The Steins had no trouble just strolling and they didn't have a key.    I'll accept that angels weren't included in the list of evil because sometimes, depending on the episode, they hadn't been on earth for a while and the MOLs either didn't believe in them or didn't think they were evil.  But, Crowley can walk in and out, apparently

[rue721]

10 minutes ago, Boopsahoy said:

He collaborated with the vampires-they needed to at least question him. I had no problem with it. However if they said lets take him away to kill him,. well then maybe ....

Based on how they've dealt with loose ends so far, I just figured they were going to kill him. Although who knows. They might Lex Luthor him and make him into a super soldier or something instead. Waste not want not.

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Option two: Whatever spell Lady Toni did on Sam back at the beginning of the season wasn't just for torture but also made him susceptible to their sales pitches. 

Or, this is part of the epic consequences of breaking their Billie deal.  Utter stupidity.

[ILoveReading]

46 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

You are watching the wrong show if this is what you want, so you are always going to be disappointed. If Dean was a real person you might be able to argue your case (though I firmly believe, even if they were real, that their bond would be a strength not an unhealthy weakness). But SPN is a show with a central premis that, were it to change, would fundamentally change the nature of the show. SPN is the story of Dean and Sam - their bond and their struggles. If Dean 'went off to find himself' what exactly would we watch every week? I know what my, and lots of other peoples' answers would be; 'not Supernatural'.

I am all for Dean finding some self esteem but his relationship with Sam - which has already moved on to a much more equal footing of 2 adults rather than the quasi parent-child / caretaker relationship that it was in the beginning - is no barrier to that. Sam loves Dean for who he is and values him far more than Dean values himself. I simply don't get why some people, as you seem to, believe he needs to get away from Sam to be happy. He certainly doesn't believe that. All he needs in life to be contented, as he has said on the show, is for he and Sam to be fighting the good fight together.

 

I never said Dean has to be be away from Sam to be happy, I said he needs space to discover who he is.  The two aren't the same thing.  I'm not asking Dean to be gone forever, which is why I said I would like to to happen over hiatus.  Mary walked away, Sam walked away.  But Dean has never had that chance.  He's never really been given the option to go and leave on his own terms like Mary and Sam have done.  He's tried but circumstances have never really ideal

Since Dean was four he's been thrust into different roles.  He's been Sam's brother, or John's son, caretaker, protector, or bodyguard but he's never really had the chance to just be Dean.  The closest he might have had would either be Purgatory or demon Dean but in both those instances it really wasn't Dean's choice or wasn't really Dean.   

The relationship you describe is not equal if Dean thinks Sam is more important.  If Dean can't see value in his own life, then its still very much a bodyguard/protected dynamic.   It came from John making Dean feel like a failure if something happens to Sam.  Notice how many times Dean calls Sam his job, or responsibility.   I want to see Dean stop this line of thinking. 

Yes, Dean's said that he's happy with just fighting the good fight with Sam, but what about after?  What if The Brits succeed?  Where does that leave Dean?   How does he know he what more he might/or might not need if he's never had the chance to find out?

I'm not looking for Dean to stop taking a bullet for those he loves.  I know he'll aways do that for Sam, Cas or Mary.  What I want to see is Dean stop trying to eat one.  That for me would be how I see Dean developing self-esteem.  Believing that he matters, that he makes a difference and it would matter if he was gone. 

That is not, Dean must get away from Sam to be happy.   Its Dean getting away and  learning to value himself.

If these Brits are so darn impressive why didn't they share their secrets with the Americans 50 years ago.  Where were they with the magic egg during the apocalypse.  .  Kind of selfish of them to not share with the rest of the class.  How many of those vampires they exterminated didn't deserve to be killed?  Why didn't Sam and Dean let Cain continue.  How many lives would he have saved if he murdered everyone with the potential to be a murder.

How many humans have they murdered in to process. They don't care about human life if it gets in the way of their goals.

The show can't have its cake and eat it too.

Edited March 3, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Mulva]

3 hours ago, Triskan said:

I've seen a lot of frustration, lately, related to Dean being a little bit less present... but personally, I dont mind at all. Maybe I'm wrong but I really have the feeling that overall through the series, he's been put ahead of Sam. Sure, I know, Sam had his moments, but recently, I've felt it has been too much focused on Dean. So I, for one, would gladly see him take a step back and be this Sam season, the character deserves it.

It's been like that since S4.  Personally, I'm glad that Sam is finally being treated like a main character.

I also had no problem with Sam and Mary allowing the BMOL to take the traitorous hunter to meet his fate.  The man was directly responsible for several deaths that day and who knows how many innocent people died because he was working with the alpha vamp.  Dean murdered a terrified, unarmed teenaged boy whose only crime was to have been born into the wrong family, and that was supported by the narrative and the fandom.  So I don't get the outrage over a man who betrayed fellow hunters to a monster.

[DittyDotDot]

11 minutes ago, Katy M said:

LOL, probably.  But, that's not what I meant.  That MOL guy that gave the key to Sam told him that the bunker was impenetrable by every evil and could only be accessed with this one key.  Are we to believe that this is a key that the hardware store could copy?  The Steins had no trouble just strolling and they didn't have a key.    I'll accept that angels weren't included in the list of evil because sometimes, depending on the episode, they hadn't been on earth for a while and the MOLs either didn't believe in them or didn't think they were evil.  But, Crowley can walk in and out, apparently

Sorry, I knew what you meant, I was just being silly. My stance is the bunker is warded except when it's not. But I'm still hoping for the thing to get blown up, too. ;)

13 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Manchurian Candidate style? That would actually be pretty neat.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking, but I'm not sure it totally works. I'm fairly certain the show isn't doing this, but sometimes I prefer to be delusional for a while. In the absence of alcohol, it can be very comforting.  ;)

[Katy M]

9 minutes ago, Mulva said:

I also had no problem with Sam and Mary allowing the BMOL to take the traitorous hunter to meet his fate.  The man was directly responsible for several deaths that day and who knows how many innocent people died because he was working with the alpha vamp.  

I wouldn't so much mind if they just killed him.  But, it sounded to me like they were going to torture him.  For what purpose?  Punishment is the only reason I can think of. 

[Geordiegirl1967]

9 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Notice how many times Dean calls Sam his job, or responsibility.   I want to see Dean stop this line of thinking.

He hasn't said anything like this for years and I don't think he sees it as a one way street any more. Sam single mindedly saved him from the MoC. They look out for each other now. It is more equal. 

As I said I am all for Dean valuing himself more. But why does he need to be away from Sam to do it? That you believe that sounds like you think there is something unhealthy in their relationship which I don't.

Dean has had his time away. He had a whole year with Lisa and Ben. I know he was grief stricken but he was away from hunting and from Sam. Didn't improve his self esteem one bit from what I could see. 

13 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Yes, Dean's said that he's happy with just fighting the good fight with Sam, but what about after?  What if The Brits succeed?  Where does that leave Dean?   How does he know he what more he might/or might not need if he's never had the chance to find out?

There is no 'after'. And if there is he and Sam will find a way when the time comes. While ever there are monsters Dean will want to fight them with Sam, and there is nothing wrong with that. It doesn't IMO come from a lack of self worth so much as a belief in saving others if you can. Being a great hunter is a big part of Dean's self image and psyche. It is a mistake, I think, to believe that Dean would be happier as an ordinary Joe car mechanic living a safe life than as a heroic hunter, saving people and being important to the world. Both Sam and Dean (though it took Sam longer) have come to that conclusions. Plus they enjoy it. So Dean is doing something meaningful and important that he enjoys with the person he loves most in the world at his side. I think that is how he wants his life to be. 

15 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The relationship you describe is not equal if Dean thinks Sam is more important

Dean thinks EVERYONE is more important than him. It is a huge part of what makes him a hero. Sam feels the same though in a slightly different way. If you are going to risk your own life for complete strangers on a regular basis there has to be a part of you that believes their lives are more important than yours. It is not necessarily a lack of self worth. It is unselfish and brave - qualities I wouldn't want either of them to lose.

22 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

If these Brits are so darn impressive why didn't they share their secrets with the Americans 50 years ago.  Where were they with the magic egg during the apocalypse.  .  Kind of selfish of them to not share with the rest of the class. 

Excellent question which we could add to my list. Ignoring areas outside your jurisdiction is one thing, but ignoring an Apocalypse (more than 1 actually) that would wipe you out if it happened is just stupid.

25 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

How many of those vampires they exterminated didn't deserve to be killed? 

I'm less worried about this. 'Good' vampires are extremely rare, and if Sam and Dean found a nest of vamps they would clear it out without interviewing them all to check on their dietary choices. 

26 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Why didn't Sam and Dean let Cain continue.  How many lives would he have saved if he murdered everyone with the potential to be a murder.

Because he wasn't killing murderers. He was killing the decedents of murders who might become murderers. Plus his victims were human and there would have been hundreds of thousands of them. Sam and Dean don't go after human killers, just monsters.

But I do get the general black & white vs shades of grey argument about the BMoL approach.

As a Brit can I just put on record that Mick's alleged London accent is diabolically bad.

[DittyDotDot]

10 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I wouldn't so much mind if they just killed him.  But, it sounded to me like they were going to torture him.  For what purpose?  Punishment is the only reason I can think of. 

Information?

Would I rather they just killed him and be done with it? Sure, that would be the smart and humane thing to do, but, as I said before, the BMoL are idiots! It'll probably come back to bite them in the ass later. But, to be honest, I just figured they were going to lock him up somewhere. You know, put him in hunter prison since regular prison doesn't seem to hold hunters for very long.

However, this got me thinking of Grampy Campbell having a warehouse full of monsters back in S6...what if the BMoL have a warehouse full of hunters somewhere? 

Edited March 3, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Myrelle]

27 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Dean just says 'we don't trust them'.

I still think he doesn't trust them especially after working with Ketch and he told Mary at the end of that awful apology that he still thinks that her working with them is a really, really poor choice/decision.

 

32 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

And (this is my biggest problem with the ep) he tells Mick "I'm in" without finding out how Dean feels about it. Sam might (though I don't think it is particularly credible) decide that the BMoL is the way he thinks THEY (i.e. he and Dean) should go. And he might try to talk Dean around to the idea. What he would NEVER do is commit just himself to something then hope he can persuade Dean. Because what if he can't? They are a team. He wouldn't leave Dean and go to work with the BMoL on his own.

I think that everything that you don't want to believe is exactly what's happening-because it's happened before in S4. And now he has Mary on his side and he saw what Dean would do for Mary in this episode-the same as he would do for Sam. So now, in Sam's mind, it should be even easier to sway Dean because Mom is involved, too-which is why I'd love to see Dean hold out and on to his convictions AND his distrust of the Brits, so that this time and in this way, respect of one's choices can be a more two-way street and Dean can finally stand up to his family and say no to one of their choices that he deems a poor one instead of simply following in their wake and hoping for the best while fully expecting to have to pick up the pieces of any mess that will likely result when the other shoe drops.

They can all still fight the good fight, it just doesn't have to be in the exact same manner or using the same tools or working with the same people. And they can still come when or if the other calls for help. I want to see this attempted with Dean as the one striking out on his own so badly that I can taste it. They are all individuals with differing opinions on many things. Heck, they can even live separately and still be a family. Lots of people do it. And I'm with ILoveReading in that I SO! want to see Dean keep his new found sense of self-worth(and this even though it wavered a bit in this one when talking to Ketch). I don't want to see him have to sublimate any of his feelings or emotions(even those of distrust) any longer just because he feels that he(and only he) has to watch over the family all the time, every second of every day. They are all adults(and they all agree on that now because apparently that had to be clarified. Again.), and as such, they are all perfectly capable of watching over/protecting themselves in most instances.

So if Dabb and Co. want to move into new territory, I vote for this. And it would help with the Js desire for more time off too.

[DeeDee79]

13 hours ago, Mulva said:

It's been like that since S4.  Personally, I'm glad that Sam is finally being treated like a main character.

I also had no problem with Sam and Mary allowing the BMOL to take the traitorous hunter to meet his fate.  The man was directly responsible for several deaths that day and who knows how many innocent people died because he was working with the alpha vamp.  Dean murdered a terrified, unarmed teenaged boy whose only crime was to have been born into the wrong family, and that was supported by the narrative and the fandom.  So I don't get the outrage over a man who betrayed fellow hunters to a monster.

I get being a Sam fan but this just seems like anti Dean thinking to me.

Edited March 4, 2017 by DeeDee79

[Katy M]

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Information?

But, that's kind of my point.  Why would Sam be OK with them torturing Pierce for information.  The alpha is dead. So, any information he has to give them on that front is useless.  Information about hunting in America shouldn't be OK with Sam. 

 

31 minutes ago, Mulva said:

Dean murdered a terrified, unarmed teenaged boy whose only crime was to have been born into the wrong family, and that was supported by the narrative and the fandom. 

I didn't support that.  The only reason I can be at all OK with it is because, even though it was unbeknownst to Dean and he didn't want to do it, he did help kill his bully.  But, mostly, no, not OK with it at all. But, I would equate that more with Sam drinking the nurse at the end of Season 4, then I would with this torture.  Because they were both under demonic influences (of their own choice).  What's Sam's excuse here?  Or even Dean's? Dean may not have said good, but he didn't protest.

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

But, that's kind of my point.  Why would Sam be OK with them torturing Pierce for information.  The alpha is dead. So, any information he has to give them on that front is useless.  Information about hunting in America shouldn't be OK with Sam. 

Did you not see my note about the brain damage? ;)

Just to be clear, I'm not okay with them torturing him, but like I said, I didn't think that's what they were doing either. It appears to me Sam is buying what they're selling right now--Lady Toni was an aberration and they really are here to help--so, I would guess that Sam wasn't thinking they were torturing that guy, but just locking him up where he couldn't get anyone else dead. Some people are just against the death penalty and may Sam is one of those people? I really don't know because I still don't know why Sam was impressed by them or bought their sales pitch, but that's my theory right now.

[Myrelle]

I thought Ketch said something alluding to torture being involved even though he didn't outright state that. And he looked very happy, too. Never a good sign coming from a sadistic psychopath the likes of that one.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Haven't read the comments, so much of this is likely to be  what's already been said.  

Interesting episode.  Not sure I really liked it.  I didn't extremely not like it, so there's that at least.  I think this was an episode we had to see in order to get from point A to point B.  Random observances:

• I was glad to see Sam also froze Mary out for a few days.  She deserved it.  And when Dean called her Mary - Dayum.

• Mary totally played Sam with the 'urgent' message.  And she knew she was doing it.  I can't be upset with Sam, because that is something that Sam would do - show up thinking she really needed his help, even though he's mad at her.  It makes me even less sympathetic toward her character.  

• I kept thinking it was a BMoL trap at the BMoL base.

• And seriously - the Brits have a high security compound in the middle of America just like that?  *snaps fingers*  I gotta call shenanigans on that.  Unless they also have American government contacts with whom they are working to keep it under the radar, but it doesn't seem like they do.

• I actually liked Ketch a little better, until the very end.   How messed up is that?   At least he's honest, unlike they're own mother.  But dude, you are nothing like Dean Winchester.  Don't even go there.

• I also liked how the vamps went after the BMoL.  And how Dean stopped Ketch from beating the female vampire left behind.  See - American hunters don't torture.  They kill when necessary, but not cruelly.  Which makes letting Ketch take Pierce off at the end mind boggling.  I get he should be punished, like the hunter in the Asa Fox episode.  But why not just let him by ostracized by the rest of the American hunters like they've previously done?  Not cool Sam and Dean.

• I liked how Sam was smart this episode, especially once the BMoL not-so-secure-site was under attack.

• I sure as hell hope that 'I'm in' from Sam at the end is a fake out like the scene with the alpha vamp when he got the bullet.

[bearcatfan]

29 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

If you are going to risk your own life for complete strangers on a regular basis there has to be a part of you that believes their lives are more important than yours. It is not necessarily a lack of self worth. It is unselfish and brave - qualities I wouldn't want either of them to lose.

Firefighters, police officers and those in the military have these qualities and no one says that they have a lack of self worth.

One thing we have to remember is that we, as viewers, know far more about the BMoL than Sam, Dean and Mary know. We know that Toni was dispatched to take care of Sam and Dean and that the hierarchy likely ordered the way she handled things. They don't know that. We know that Ketch killed everyone who knew that the Winchesters were held in that secret bunker. They don't know that. They told Mick and Ketch that they would handle it and probably thought that would be the end of it. They don't know that Ketch killed the girl in "American Nightmare." We can't assume that they are making the same assumptions we make, because they don't know everything we know. They were told that Toni was a rogue agent and so far Mick and Ketch came and helped them with the egg for Lucifer and helped Mary and Cas find them after they broke out of the secret prison. While they may still be not completely trusting, I can see how the actions of Mick and Ketch so far may have them wondering if the rogue agent story is the truth. Mary never said she trusted them when Wally asked her if she did. She didn't answer the question. All she said was that they had killed a lot of monsters and saved a lot of people.

As far as Pierce goes, maybe they thought if he made a pact with the Alpha Vamp, he's made pacts with other monsters.

Mick looked shaken by what happened. I think he fully realized that he would be dead if Sam wasn't there. That doesn't mean that I think he's trust worthy. Just that this close call may make him re-evaluate how they do things. My guess is that the lack of monsters in the UK means that their head quarters doesn't need to have a strong defense. Therefore, they didn't consider it a necessity in the US. It will be interesting to see if Mick changes how he approaches hunters as a result of this raid.

[Wynne88]

Quote

I think that everything that you don't want to believe is exactly what's happening-because it's happened before in S4. And now he has Mary on his side and he saw what Dean would do for Mary in this episode-the same as he would do for Sam. 

This would make Sam one manipulative SOB, and I sincerely hope they don't go there.  There have been times in the past where I think maybe he's shown a bit of that tendency, and it's not a trait I would like to see them emphasize.  Mary is already a master of it, which makes her really unlikeable.

Quote

 And how Dean stopped Ketch from beating the female vampire left behind.  See - American hunters don't torture.  They kill when necessary, but not cruelly. 

Except when they do.  There are two episodes (whose names I forget) that would seem to belie this.  One was fairly early on when Dean was torturing demons in Bobby's shed - I can't remember why.  The other was the episode with the guy they beat the heck out of (maybe to get a demon out of him?) - what I mostly remember from that one is the guy later adopting a dog who was wearing a cone of shame, and then sacrificing him.  Sorry I can't be more specific.

[Bergamot]

I was sorry to see the Alpha Vampire get killed in this episode, mainly because he seemed to go out with a whimper rather than a bang. I kept waiting for him to attack Sam or at least show his fangs, but he just tamely stood there waiting to be shot. I had once thought he was a rather impressive monster, at least in his first couple appearances, but he seemed very weak in this one. 

Remember the spooky vision Dean received from the Alpha Vamp after he was turned, with the little girl twins and their teacups of blood? Very sinister and atmospheric. And then when the Campbells had the Alpha Vamp chained up in a cage and were trying to torture him for information on Purgatory? I think you got the sense that they had a very dangerous tiger by the tail, and were out of their league. As he told Sam and Dean, "When your kind first huddled around the fire, I was the thing in the dark. Now you think you can hurt me?" In this episode the answer was, sure we can, no problem!

I think another reason that the death of the Alpha Vamp was pretty much a damp squib for me is that there was no connection made to anything in the Winchesters' history. For example, the fact that Dean was once one of his "children" was never mentioned, or that Dean killed Eve, the Alpha Vamp's "mother", or that last time they saw him they told him they were looking forward to coming back to kill him.  It was the end of a scary monster, but there was nothing personal about it.  Nothing made it seem like a big deal, in spite of the special effects.

In the beginning when we saw the Colt being used, for example when Dean shot Azazel, or when he tried to kill Lucifer with it, there was a deep resonance and meaning in those moments that tied back to the very beginning of the show; its use was something that changed everything for Dean and Sam. Now it is just another renewable magical tool in the MOL's kit, and I feel as if the specialness of it is gone for me.
 

[Katy M]

14 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

Except when they do.  There are two episodes (whose names I forget) that would seem to belie this.  One was fairly early on when Dean was torturing demons in Bobby's shed - I can't remember why.  The other was the episode with the guy they beat the heck out of (maybe to get a demon out of him?) - what I mostly remember from that one is the guy later adopting a dog who was wearing a cone of shame, and then sacrificing him.  Sorry I can't be more specific.

Let it Bleed from season 6 to find out where Lisa and Ben were.  Repo Man from Season 8 but the torture was during a flashback to season 4, they were torturing the demon to find out where Lillith was.

They were also torturing a demon in Two Minutes to Midnight in Season 3 to find out who held Dean's contract. 

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Haven't read the comments, so much of this is likely to be  what's already been said.  

Interesting episode.  Not sure I really liked it.  I didn't extremely not like it, so there's that at least.  I think this was an episode we had to see in order to get from point A to point B.  Random observances:

• I was glad to see Sam also froze Mary out for a few days.  She deserved it.  And when Dean called her Mary - Dayum.

• Mary totally played Sam with the 'urgent' message.  And she knew she was doing it.  I can't be upset with Sam, because that is something that Sam would do - show up thinking she really needed his help, even though he's mad at her.  It makes me even less sympathetic toward her character.  

• I kept thinking it was a BMoL trap at the BMoL base.

• And seriously - the Brits have a high security compound in the middle of America just like that?  *snaps fingers*  I gotta call shenanigans on that.  Unless they also have American government contacts with whom they are working to keep it under the radar, but it doesn't seem like they do.

• I actually liked Ketch a little better, until the very end.   How messed up is that?   At least he's honest, unlike they're own mother.  But dude, you are nothing like Dean Winchester.  Don't even go there.

• I also liked how the vamps went after the BMoL.  And how Dean stopped Ketch from beating the female vampire left behind.  See - American hunters don't torture.  They kill when necessary, but not cruelly.  Which makes letting Ketch take Pierce off at the end mind boggling.  I get he should be punished, like the hunter in the Asa Fox episode.  But why not just let him by ostracized by the rest of the American hunters like they've previously done?  Not cool Sam and Dean.

• I liked how Sam was smart this episode, especially once the BMoL not-so-secure-site was under attack.

• I sure as hell hope that 'I'm in' from Sam at the end is a fake out like the scene with the alpha vamp when he got the bullet.

Seems to me the BMOL do have govt contacts or at least private govt contractors they work with given they  have access to a satellite they used to track the boys. To me their setup is like a MASH unit. It's a mobile operation. IMO they are a lot of show.

Produce the physical evidence they killed all those vampires.

What about the 5 monster families in Chicago.  I mean given there was a shapeshifter and werewolf and djinn family odds are their was a vampire family too. (II cannot believe I just Invoked fucking bloodlines to discount the BMOL). Surely Ennis would have called the boys to let them know that this vampire family was killed.

They can put on any show they want to try and recruit the best Hunters in the world because they  need their skills and as soon as they get that 411 they will kill them too.

They sure as hell don't respect hunters. They use them and then toss them away.

For all we know "Chief" was playing a role. He could have been getting g paid by the Alpha and BMoL. Double Agent. Maybe he's being taken off but won't be tortured because the goal was three fold.

1) get the Alpha to the facility for Sam to kill with he colt.

2) it gets Sam feeling g like okay maybe this is a thing I want to do and because Mary might be in over her head.

3) Dean is conveniently visited by Sketch and taken on some bogus vamp hunt that leaves the one vamp that the other vamp fed human blood too. Where did he get the human blood? I would think the BMoL have a big stash of human and vamp old so they can work on this Ray gun thing. Maybe she was their just to keep Dean busy and away from the true fight.

It's kind of convenient that in both the case of Ramiel and the Alpha vamp that both things revolved around the colt.

[Geordiegirl1967]

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

I think that everything that you don't want to believe is exactly what's happening-because it's happened before in S4. And now he has Mary on his side and he saw what Dean would do for Mary in this episode-the same as he would do for Sam. So now, in Sam's mind, it should be even easier to sway Dean because Mom is involved, too-which is why I'd love to see Dean hold out and on to his convictions AND his distrust of the Brits, so that this time and in this way, respect of one's choices can be a more two-way street and Dean can finally stand up to his family and say no to one of their choices that he deems a poor one instead of simply following in their wake and hoping for the best while fully expecting to have to pick up the pieces of any mess that will likely result when the other shoe drops.

They can all still fight the good fight, it just doesn't have to be in the exact same manner or using the same tools or working with the same people. And they can still come when or if the other calls for help. I want to see this attempted with Dean as the one striking out on his own so badly that I can taste it. They are all individuals with differing opinions on many things. Heck, they can even live separately and still be a family. Lots of people do it. And I'm with ILoveReading in that I SO! want to see Dean keep his new found sense of self-worth(and this even though it wavered a bit in this one when talking to Ketch). I don't want to see him have to sublimate any of his feelings or emotions(even those of distrust) any longer just because he feels that he(and only he) has to watch over the family all the time, every second of every day. They are all adults(and they all agree on that now because apparently that had to be clarified. Again.), and as such, they are all perfectly capable of watching over/protecting themselves in most instances.

So if Dabb and Co. want to move into new territory, I vote for this. And it would help with the Js desire for more time off too.

As I said to ILoveReading, you might want to see this, but it isn't Supernatural and will never happen. Because if it did the show would become unrecognisable and would disappear down the drain.

As I am new here and am just getting to grips with who swings which way I don't want to put words into your mouth. So all I will say is that in the past the people I have come across pushing for this kind of change of direction (i.e. Dean and Sam going their separate ways) under the guise of 'shaking things up' or 'keeping things fresh' or allowing Dean to 'find himself' tend to be anti Sam and not at all bought into the brothers bond. While that is a perfectly valid stance to take it goes against the DNA of the show. SPN is Sam and Dean working together to fight evil. It is not and will never be Sam and Mary fight evil over there while Dean and Cas/whoever fight evil over here.

As for the bolded bit, sorry but I seriously don't know where that is coming from. Time and time again we have seen Sam go down a route Dean doesn't think is right. Almost every time Sam is proved wrong and Dean is proved right to the point that it is amazing that Sam even trusts himself to decide which shirt to wear. And Dean has hardly ever 'gone along with it'. He sticks to his guns and his instincts. He doesn't do what Sam wants. He has frequently said 'no to his choices'. He didn't go trust Ruby. He was proved right. He didn't want to go after Lilith (for reasons that made no sense given what they knew at the time) and was proved right. He didn't trust the Campbells when Sam did. He was right. Sam chose not to look for Dean after he went  to Purgatory. He was wrong. Sam didn't trust Benny. Dean did. Dean was proved right. Dean pretended to go along with Sam's judgement about Amy then killed her anyway cause that is what his gut told him to do. I could go on and on....He hardly ever compromises. Dean stands up to Sam whenever he disagrees with Sam's views / instincts. He has done it many many times and (to my extreme irritation - a bit of balance would be great) 99% of the time he is proved right. One of my worries about their different attitudes to the BMoL is that Sam will be proved wrong AGAIN.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

I was sorry to see the Alpha Vampire get killed in this episode, mainly because he seemed to go out with a whimper rather than a bang. I kept waiting for him to attack Sam or at least show his fangs, but he just tamely stood there waiting to be shot. I had once thought he was a rather impressive monster, at least in his first couple appearances, but he seemed very weak in this one. 

 

I know I'm in the minority, but I was never overly impressed by the Alpha.  Maybe a bit in Family Matters, but he mostly just sat in his cage and lectured Sam and Dean about Purgatory and souls.  He seemed to be there for exposition more than anything else.  He did "kill" Christian (he could tell Sam was soulless, but nto that Christian was a demon and breaking his neck would do nothing?) and threatened Sam, but then he was gone again.  In There will Be Blood, he speechified some more and Sam and Dean had to save him from Edgar.  I've just never been overly impressed and am not surpised he would waste his opportunity to kill Sam and decide to chat instead.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

They were also torturing a demon in Two Minutes to Midnight in Season 3 to find out who held Dean's contract. 

I can't recall the name of the season 3 ep where this happened but Two Minutes to Midnight was in season 5 when they first met Death. Nitpicking I know :(

[Myrelle]

31 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

As I said to ILoveReading, you might want to see this, but it isn't Supernatural and will never happen. Because if it did the show would become unrecognisable and would disappear down the drain.

That's your opinion even though it's stated as a fact. That doesn't necessarily make it so.

And Dean has tried to go along with Sam at times, and I keep seeing this argument that Dean is always right. Well, maybe he is but who within the narrative ever acknowledges that, so IMO, it's no big deal and just makes the other characters seem Teflon-coated and that makes them a turn-off for me.

Whereas even though Dean is made to apologize even when it's not necessary, his flaws are on full display(and are they ever!) within the narrative and not just bandied about in fandom as Sam's are. I don't care what the fandom says. I care what the narrative says and is telling me about the characters and the narrative tells me that Dean has tried to work with other characters whom Sam has trusted many times even though Dean, himself, doesn't trust them and states that, at first. Dean being "right" in the end is often the only thing that he gets from a storyline, but still some would take that away from him all in the name of "balance"-again, even if it is rarely acknowledged within the narrative and through dialogues between the characters. And I'm talking the big stuff like The Book of the Damned and yes, Gadreel(if you see it that way) and Benny and oh, let's not forget about the infamous Purge speech. But like everything else, if some fans scream for it long enough, the writers will, of course, oblige, while others they will just continue to ignore. It sounds to me as if you're in the former category, so have no fear. 

Quote

He didn't go trust Ruby.

Quote

 He didn't trust the Campbells when Sam did.

He tried to, though. It's in the narrative.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Myrelle

[Geordiegirl1967]

TV Guide have written up the ep. They are a sceptical as I am about Sam's apparent new allegiance to the BMoL.

Quote

I have to believe that there's more to Sam's motives with the Men of Letters than meets the eye, because to take his new allegiance at face value is to turn my back on 12 seasons of world-building, character development, and culture.

http://www.tvguide.com/news/supernatural-recap-has-an-extremist-problem/?ftag=TVG_Twitter

[missbonnie]

If we could get rid of the BMoL along with Mary and just get back to Sam, Dean, Cass, Crowley and Rowena I would be a happy camper.

Edited March 6, 2017 by missbonnie

[AwesomO4000]

17 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Repo Man from Season 8 but the torture was during a flashback to season 4, they were torturing the demon to find out where Lillith was.

Sorry that I'm going to be a little picky here, but "Repo Man" was from season 7. It's one of the episodes from that season that I thought was very interesting and thought provoking due to the subject matter, and the twist - that the former demon host actually missed the demon, because it gave him an excuse to be a killer and he enjoyed the "company" - I thought was unexpected and well done... I didn't find season 8 to be either interesting or thought provoking with that type of subject matter - except in a bad way - and the tone was much less subtle, in my opinion, than that episode and much of season 7.

Sorry about that - I'm a rare* season 7 proponent, so I am somewhat protective of it's episodes.

* Though actually less rare on this board than in many other places on the internet.

[DittyDotDot]

20 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I can't recall the name of the season 3 ep where this happened but Two Minutes to Midnight was in season 5 when they first met Death. Nitpicking I know :(

Perhaps @Katy M was referring to Time is on My Side? They were torturing a demon in that episode to find who held Dean's contract.

IMO, they have, at times, killed cruelly, but it's not their general approach nor is it their general want.

I think I might understand what the show is trying to do with Sam getting on board with the BMoL, I'm just not sure they made that clear in this episode. Sam's whole life has been reacting to someone else's death and no matter how many people they save, there's always more monsters crawling out of the woodwork to kill more people. I think he sees Her Majesty's Secret Suckbacks have a plan to do something on a bigger scale to give them an advantage. It's not the technology that impressed Sam, but the strategy, I think. Personally, I think he's delusional to think it can ever be that easy, but Sam has always been a big-picture sort of guy.  

[Geordiegirl1967]

1 minute ago, Myrelle said:

That's your opinion even though it's stated as a fact. That doesn't necessarily make it so.

All the evidence points to it being a lot more than just my opinion. The writers, showrunners and Jared and Jensen have repeatedly stated that SPN is Sam and Dean's story, that their bond is the heart of the show and the main draw, and they have never in 12 seasons moved away from the basic structure of Sam and Dean working cases together, living together etc. Periods of separation have been extremely brief and almost always have happened off screen (eg between s5 and 6).

There have been many opportunities for them to split the boys up for longer on screen periods eg when Dean was in Purgatory, when they split after Dean killed Amy, when they fell out after Sam found out about Gadreel. None have ever lasted more than 2 or 3 eps max. Why do you think that it is? IMO it is because those who run the show know what their audience wants. 

6 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

And Dean has tried to go along with Sam at times, and I keep seeing this argument that Dean is always right. Well, maybe he is but who within the narrative ever acknowledges that

Well it acknowledged by him actually being shown to be right. He was proved onscreen to have been right in all the examples I gave and more. Maybe what you think was lacking was Sam saying 'you were right Dean and I was wrong'? He has said that on many if not all the occasions I mentioned - most notably about Ruby/Lilith. 

8 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Dean being "right" in the end is often the only thing that he gets from a storyline, but still some would take that away from him all in the name of "balance". But like everything else, if some fans scream for it long enough, the writers will, of course, oblige, while others they will just continue to ignore. It sounds to me as if you're in the former category, so have no fear. 

Being right is a pretty big thing to get from a story and I would swap several of Sam's supposed big roles in mytharcs for him being proved right and shown to have good instincts just occasionally. I don't want to take being right, or indeed to take anything away from Dean. I adore Dean. I love both characters equally. This is not a Sam vs Dean thing for me. I hate arguments that descend into that. I struggle to understand how anyone could be a big fan of the show without loving both Dean and Sam and I certainly do - so nothing I said should be construed as anti Dean. But I do get bored with the 'oh look Sam is wrong again' stories and this one is shaping up to be a doozy. Because lets face it - the BMoL are as shady as ****. If they are on the level this is going to be the dullest season ever. 'New players in town are on their side and kill all their enemies then everyone goes out for tea and cake' is not a recipe for an exciting story. 

As for the bold bit, we don't really know each other yet so I was very careful not to pigeon hole you or make assumptions about you in my post. I would appreciate the same courtesy. I am not 'screaming' for anything from the writers and to cast my views in that way, with the implication that yours - which if they came to fruition would IMO ruin the show for many people - are perfectly valid doesn't seem fair. Also I am not sure why you would assume that people who see the show how I do would have any more influence over the writers than anyone else - unless of course it just looks that way because what we want is what the writers believe and intend anyway which brings me back to my first point above.

Anyhoo I love a debate but I don't want to argue so we may have to agree to disagree. SPN fandom is a broad church. There is room for all. 

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Perhaps @Katy M was referring to Time is on My Side? They were torturing a demon in that episode to find who held Dean's contract.

Yes, that's it! :)

[SueB]

1 hour ago, bearcatfan said:

Firefighters, police officers and those in the military have these qualities and no one says that they have a lack of self worth.

One thing we have to remember is that we, as viewers, know far more about the BMoL than Sam, Dean and Mary know. We know that Toni was dispatched to take care of Sam and Dean and that the hierarchy likely ordered the way she handled things. They don't know that. We know that Ketch killed everyone who knew that the Winchesters were held in that secret bunker. They don't know that. They told Mick and Ketch that they would handle it and probably thought that would be the end of it. They don't know that Ketch killed the girl in "American Nightmare." We can't assume that they are making the same assumptions we make, because they don't know everything we know. They were told that Toni was a rogue agent and so far Mick and Ketch came and helped them with the egg for Lucifer and helped Mary and Cas find them after they broke out of the secret prison. While they may still be not completely trusting, I can see how the actions of Mick and Ketch so far may have them wondering if the rogue agent story is the truth. Mary never said she trusted them when Wally asked her if she did. She didn't answer the question. All she said was that they had killed a lot of monsters and saved a lot of people.

As far as Pierce goes, maybe they thought if he made a pact with the Alpha Vamp, he's made pacts with other monsters.

Mick looked shaken by what happened. I think he fully realized that he would be dead if Sam wasn't there. That doesn't mean that I think he's trust worthy. Just that this close call may make him re-evaluate how they do things. My guess is that the lack of monsters in the UK means that their head quarters doesn't need to have a strong defense. Therefore, they didn't consider it a necessity in the US. It will be interesting to see if Mick changes how he approaches hunters as a result of this raid.

THIS.  *takes this posts, puts highlighters on key words, makes a border of glitter, gives it five gold stars and puts it on the refrigerator*

emphasis mine

IF Sam and Dean knew about the "clean-up", they'd be working to bring DOWN the BMoL.  Because NOT COOL killing humans or 'special people' that they've saved.  

Also, the start of this episode makes it clear that Dabb & company are playing a long game and each episode is less standalone than it had been in past years.
For example,
1) There were many complaints about a montage versus hearing what Sam and Dean had to say to Mary.  And why couldn't we hear what Sam and Dean thought.  Well, this episode COVERED that territory exceptionally well.  We got the full fight AND the boys post-fight discussion.  It's not likely to turn into a full-blown caring & sharing session because that's still OOC for the boys, but they are working together.
2) Mary lying was a big worry stone.  She came clean about EVERYTHING.  She's got nothing left that we the audience know that the boys don't.  She forced Mick to go get the Colt even though it had NO bullets ---- which answers the complaint of 'why didn't she shoot Ramiel'.  AND we get Sam's OBVIOUS emotional response to seeing she had the Colt.  We may not get to see Dean hearing about the Colt, not because they will withhold it  because it's an offline conversation. (fanwank offline scene: D: How did you kill the Alpha? S:They had the Colt but no bullets, I made bullets.  D:How did they get the Colt? S: Mom stole it from Ramiel. D: Son of a bitch.  Is there anything else she's lying about??? S: No, I think that was the last big thing.... end scene).   
3) We had plenty of 'unnecessary' looks and moments that suggest that the events in this episode will have longer-reaching implications.
a) Dean focusing in on the hand.
b) Mary sending separate texts to both Sam and Dean with the SAME types of words. Seeing the flashback through MARY'S eyes.  This means she heard Dean say "I never was" when it came to being a child.  The use of "Mary" versus Mom was painful (of course the real-time flinch also helped). Being thrown out of the bunker by Dean and supported by Sam helped.  My point: Mary may respond differently after the outburst. We didn't get to see that. We saw Dean's comments but it's too early to say the longer conversation is truly "over". Our precedent is when she went running to the boys after Ketch called her out for lying. 
c) We see Mary's little room in the BMoL compound is literally a modular unit sticking out to the side all by itself ... like she's hanging out on a limb.
4) The Winchesters are the BIG FISH.  BMoL has essentially failed in America. They got Mary and no-one else to join them.  But with Mary's help, some tech, and good intel, they were able to make a big deal.  If they want to be successful, however, they have to get more "top-shelf" hunters.  They NEED Sam and Dean.
5) The "old men" want Sam and Dean.  Tony was also working for those "old men".  Dabb has laid some breadcrumbs here.  Who exactly is driving the BMoL?  Because Mick is a salesman, Ketch is a guided sociopath, and the two dead techs were subject matter experts.  This seems like it may pay-off later.

Bottom Line on this reasoning: The writers are potentially COUNTING on us falling for mis-direction or counting on us picking up on all the breadcrumbs they are laying out.  In the first case, it aids in providing a "twist". In the second case it allows you to appreciate the slow-build up of the story. 

 

Put differently: If it was a 'surprise' for you that we got to see a pretty hefty bunch of scenes showing the fall-out of Mary's lying, then they've likely entertained you with a pleasant surprise. If it was expected, then it was satisfying to see the "pay-off" of so many issues.  Either way, it wasn't boring. 

 

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

You'd think it would take more than a bunch of shipping containers stacked together and a few computers to impress Sam. Did I miss the part where the BMoL were impressive?

  Sam was pretty clear that he wasn't impressed with the facility. He WAS, however, impressed with the raw data: they killed 241 vamps in the Mid West Region using a collaborative effort of spies and concerted strikes.  Yes, the tech helped, but more importantly, it was a coordinated effort.  

So when Sam said "I'm in." It's TOO EARLY to presume he's going to be the poster-child for hunter recruiting and doing what the BMoL says.  He said they are "changing the world".  But to assume the change he liked was the genocide is just that .... an assumption.  He could like, instead, the coordinated effort.  The use of a more spies as well as hunters.  That WOULD be a game changer.  And it could be run out of the Bunker.

Which brings me to MY worrystone: The bunker sure looks 'shiny' as a base of operation.  MY worrystone is that they will drag us thru some threats to the BMoL taking over the bunker before the boys take it back.  I think the boys would ultimately retain control of the bunker.... but I'm not sure I'm keen on having that threatened.  Yes, it's a fresh threat. A real threat.  And I'm confident our heroes would emerge victorious over the BMoL in the end.  More likely changing the BMoL (Mick is DEFINITELY cottoned on that he knows jack shit and needs Sam) than by force.  

Edited March 3, 2017 by SueB
clarified the point of getting Mary's POV during the argument

[Katy M]

Yes, sorry I always get the titles Time Is on My Side and Two Minutes to Midnight mixed up.  I don't know why, but I do.

[Geordiegirl1967]

21 minutes ago, SueB said:

Which brings me to MY worrystone: The bunker sure looks 'shiny' as a base of operation.  MY worrystone is that they will drag us thru some threats to the BMoL taking over the bunker before the boys take it back.  I think the boys would ultimately retain control of the bunker.... but I'm not sure I'm keen on having that threatened.  Yes, it's a fresh threat. A real threat.  And I'm confident our heroes would emerge victorious over the BMoL in the end.  

This has been one of my fears. After all, technically the bunker does belong more to the BMoL than to S&D. And I assume they could get into it then change the locks on Dean and Sam. I half wondered it that was Ketch's game when he knocked on the door. (Pet peeve - why did Dean just open the door? Could've been an army of monsters for all he knew). I would hate to see the boys kicked out but it would be a good storyline so long as they got it back in the end.

The difficulty I am having is that, genocide aside (if that is even possible), The MoL way is a better way - centralising intelligence gathering and knowledge, weapons development and the library with an army of hunters at their disposal using all that and working together to deliver better results. The American way of a load of lone hunters grumpily and grudgingly sharing partial bits of knowledge in seedy bars over a warm beer, and only reacting once monsters are killing enough to get noticed simply isn't as effective. So if we are meant, at the end of all this, to conclude that the US way is better then I am going to take some convincing. If all hunters were as good as Sam and Dean maybe... but as the last couple of eps have showed us, that is not the case. And even if the actual people involved in the BMoL turn out to be liars or to have another agenda it would be hard to get away from the conclusion that US hunters could adopt their tactics and be a LOT better at saving people and hunting things.

[companionenvy]

23 minutes ago, SueB said:

Sam was pretty clear that he wasn't impressed with the facility. He WAS, however, impressed with the raw data: they killed 241 vamps in the Mid West Region using a collaborative effort of spies and concerted strikes.  Yes, the tech helped, but more importantly, it was a coordinated effort.

Yup. That's actually part of what bothers me about this whole plotline. If the MOL really are that good -- and, despite the limitations revealed in this episode, they appear to be -- I'm really not sure why more hunters won't join them, or why Sam and Dean shouldn't (barring moral objections, which they have not raised). We know that the BMOL regularly crosses the moral event horizon, that Toni was not just a rogue operative, etc, but Sam and Dean, while they know enough to be suspicious, don't know enough to be taking the absolutist line Dean, at least, is still maintaining.

[Katy M]

14 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Yup. That's actually part of what bothers me about this whole plotline. If the MOL really are that good -- and, despite the limitations revealed in this episode, they appear to be -- I'm really not sure why more hunters won't join them, or why Sam and Dean shouldn't (barring moral objections, which they have not raised). We know that the BMOL regularly crosses the moral event horizon, that Toni was not just a rogue operative, etc, but Sam and Dean, while they know enough to be suspicious, don't know enough to be taking the absolutist line Dean, at least, is still maintaining.

The one hunter we saw Mick talk to in that one episode, First Blood, I think, Mick said, we'll tell you where to go, you go and kill.  I don't know that if I had been out hunting on my own for years, I would go for that either.  On the flip side, since the BMOLs have all these stupid gadgets, which I hate, why do they need that many hunters.  If they're pretty well cleared out in England, they could leave a skeleton crew over there, bring everyone else over here, and be done with it in a few monhts.  You know, if they are as awesome as they're supposed to be.

[AwesomO4000]

16 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Whereas even though Dean is made to apologize even when it's not necessary, his flaws are on full display(and are they ever!) within the narrative and not just bandied about in fandom as Sam's are.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that Sam's flaws are only "bandied about in fandom"... they are pretty much discussed within the show by every kind of character from humans (Dean, Bobby, hunters) to psychics (Pamela) to angels (Castiel, Uriel, Gadreel) to Lucifer and God himself. And I wouldn't even have too much of a problem with that if Sam's flaws were allowed to remain at least somewhat consistent and believable. But often for the sake of plot, Sam is given new flaws in order to put him on the wrong side of most things. Or barring that, he's regressed back to character traits he's been shown to have outgrow in order to again put him on the wrong side. This episode - if things stand as they are - seems to be an example of this.

As mentioned earlier, Sam's behavior in this episode - if his "I'm in" stands as is - is a throwback to season 4 which Sam had supposedly grown beyond years ago. That's what season 5's "Sam Interrupted" was about, and season 7's self reflection was about, and season 10's conversation with Charlie was about. For me, if Sam's arguments to the Alpha vampire seemed believable - and to me they did - and his siding with Dean at the beginning of the episode was genuine - which to me it was - and then his upset at the Colt reveal was genuine - which again, to me it was - then his "I'm in" came flying out of nowhere. This isn't even taking into account yet that Sam is usually all for the gray area when it comes to monsters (unless for plot purposes he isn't: Benny) and has been so recently - Garth and the werewolves, Sully and the Xana, what's her name from "Paper Moon" who is also a werewolf, the Phistaco lady, the girl in "American Nightmare" on and on, but now all of a sudden he's supposedly "yup this is good; let's kill them all," and that's just supposed to be a given? And having a "normal life" is supposedly rearing it's ugly head again? Even after season 10? Really? Along with his "good" that the rogue hunter is taken away, when just earlier this year, he was enduring torture because he didn't think it would be right for other hunters to end up in the same position - being tortured - that he was in. Sam's views weren't even shown to be consistent within this one episode. That's what I object to.  Because then it appears that Sam is only making these decisions to be a contrast to Dean, who is shown to object to a monster being tortured when it wasn't necessary and is still sticking with his guns and not buying what the BMoL is selling which I agree are both consistent to Dean - but should also be consistent for Sam, too. In my opinion, Sam not being on the same side as Dean in this makes almost no sense... especially since we had Dean's final conversation of Mary making her own choices and that being okay with Dean... so why does Sam now have to change his entire opinion / personality and side with Mary again?

And the fact that I predicted that this would likely happen even though it made little sense to me, says a lot, to me, about how the writers use Sam's character within the narrative. In general, if a character's personality, traits, etc. need to be altered in order to further the plot the writers want, a large majority of the time, it is Sam's personality that is compromised to further the objectives. One of the reasons I enjoyed the second half of season 6 and season 7 so much is that, under Gamble's direction, Sam - with hallucinations and all - was actually allowed to be Sam and not molded to fit the plot.

Of course if all of this is not what it seems, and the "I'm in" isn't going to stand as is, I'll gladly admit that I was wrong, praise Dabb, and be so glad that the shadow of Carver has finally left the show, and Sam can actually remain a character in his own right and not be just a soundingboard for Dean to react to.

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

...and I keep seeing this argument that Dean is always right. Well, maybe he is but who within the narrative ever acknowledges that,

I hated House, because of this kind of thing. The character of House to me was insufferable, and his being acknowledged all the time as right and brilliant was beyond annoying. To me it's enough that the show shows Dean to be right. And that in itself is getting somewhat annoying when everyone else (whether it's Sam, Castiel, or now Mary) is not only shown to be wrong, but really, really wrong.

If I'm going to believe a partnership between two people - in this case Sam and Dean - I need to see both people contributing and filling in each others' flaws and weaknesses. Not one person who always makes the right call and the other one who means well, but somehow ends up making the entirely stupid/naive/obviously wrong call every time. That's not really a partnership in my opinion. And it's not the way the show used to be before Carver.

And I'm not going to comment on Dean's flaws or how they are portrayed, because I don't want to get into major Sam vs Dean territory. We'll just leave it as I disagree with you on how Dean's flaws are portrayed.

[Geordiegirl1967]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Sorry about that - I'm a rare* season 7 proponent, so I am somewhat protective of it's episodes.

You have me excited! I really enjoyed s7 but rarely find anyone who agrees with me so....hi!

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Dean, who is shown to object to a monster being tortured when it wasn't necessary and is still sticking with his guns and not buying what the BMoL is selling

Ketch seemed to think his sales pitch was going well until the interruption. I guess he missed all those "Jesus, you Psycho" reactions from Dean.

Meanwhile Mick, after the debacle at the compound, clearly did not expect Sam to say "yes." It made so little sense that even the recruiter looked like "the hell?" in the face of success. Which makes me think it was just a ploy by Sam. There was nothing in the episode that really was convincing. The Alpha Vamp is now dead? Nothing to do with the BMOL methos really. Unless you wanna say their genocidal strategy serves as good bait to lure out some ultra Big Bads.    

[Geordiegirl1967]

3 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

As mentioned earlier, Sam's behavior in this episode - if his "I'm in" stands as is - is a throwback to season 4 which Sam had supposedly grown beyond years ago. That's what season 5's "Sam Interrupted" was about, and season 7's self reflection was about, and season 10's conversation with Charlie was about. For me, if Sam's arguments to the Alpha vampire seemed believable - and to me they did - and his siding with Dean at the beginning of the episode was genuine - which to me it was - and then his upset at the Colt reveal was genuine - which again, to me it was - then his "I'm in" came flying out of nowhere. This isn't even taking into account yet that Sam is usually all for the gray area when it comes to monsters (unless for plot purposes he isn't: Benny) and has been so recently - Garth and the werewolves, Sully and the Xana, what's her name from "Paper Moon" who is also a werewolf, the Phistaco lady, the girl in "American Nightmare" on and on, but now all of a sudden he's supposedly "yup this is good; let's kill them all," and that's just supposed to be a given? And having a "normal life" is supposedly rearing it's ugly head again? Even after season 10? Really? Along with his "good" that the rogue hunter is taken away, when just earlier this year, he was enduring torture because he didn't think it would be right for other hunters to end up in the same position - being tortured - that he was in. Sam's views weren't even shown to be consistent within this one episode. That's what I object to.  Because then it appears that Sam is only making these decisions to be a contrast to Dean, who is shown to object to a monster being tortured when it wasn't necessary and is still sticking with his guns and not buying what the BMoL is selling which I agree are both consistent to Dean - but should also be consistent for Sam, too. In my opinion, Sam not being on the same side as Dean in this makes almost no sense... especially since we had Dean's final conversation of Mary making her own choices and that being okay with Dean... so why does Sam now have to change his entire opinion / personality and side with Mary again?

And the fact that I predicted that this would likely happen even though it made little sense to me, says a lot, to me, about how the writers use Sam's character within the narrative. In general, if a character's personality, traits, etc. need to be altered in order to further the plot the writers want, a large majority of the time, it is Sam's personality that is compromised to further the objectives. One of the reasons I enjoyed the second half of season 6 and season 7 so much is that, under Gamble's direction, Sam - with hallucinations and all - was actually allowed to be Sam and not molded to fit the plot.

This with bells on!!

You have said it all. Sam was, as he far too often is, shown to act completely ooc in this ep just to further a stupid bro conflict story or get other characters to where the show runner wants them to be. I am beyond sick of it. I also agree completely that this started with Carver. He came out of the gate with the absurd 'Sam not looking for Dean' ooc debacle and it went on from there. I had hoped Dabb wouldn't fall into the same trap. Hmmmm. Jury is out on that!

I am just hoping, as you are, that this is a bait n switch and that Sam is stringing them along to get more intel or whatever. Sadly I fear the worst!

[RulerofallIsurvey]

14 hours ago, Diane said:

And heaven help me but I kinda like Ketch. 

Right?  What is wrong with us?!

13 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I've gotten over my thing for Ketch when tried to equate Dean to himself and then talked about how Toni is unhinged as though he's not unhinged.

I thought that was very interesting that she said the same thing about him.  Hm.

4 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

• They have efficiently and with no loss of life on their side entirely cleared the north west of the US of hundreds of vamps, thereby saving many hundreds more innocent lives. That's far more than 150+ years of US hunters have managed to do. That implies they are good at what they do, which was totally at odds with their reaction when their compound was attacked and, as you say, with their inept performance re the intel on Ramiel and the Alpha, and the poor security at their base.

Well, now - Wally died a couple eps back.  Unless you don't count that as 'on the BMoL side'?  And we really don't know how many other redshirts died in their quest to rid the Midwest of vampire nests.  If they could only attract the less than top shelf hunters (that is, not very skilled) then I'm thinking there might have been a lot of American hunter casualties along the way.

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

LOL, probably.  But, that's not what I meant.  That MOL guy that gave the key to Sam told him that the bunker was impenetrable by every evil and could only be accessed with this one key.  Are we to believe that this is a key that the hardware store could copy?  The Steins had no trouble just strolling and they didn't have a key.   

Mary just walked right in also.  So I guess she has a key.  Which means they would have had to replicate the original some how.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Seems to me the BMOL do have govt contacts or at least private govt contractors they work with given they  have access to a satellite they used to track the boys.

Oh, well, I guess I figured they were still working with their operations base in England for that bit of intel.  They could have hackers temporarily reassign a satellite for their espionage purposes.  (It's a common trope.)  I do think they must have some clandestine agreement with the British government.  In this case, I mean the American government though.  I just don't see that happening as fast as it did - considering the CIA had Sam and Dean locked away at a black site not a few episodes ago.  

54 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Perhaps @Katy M was referring to Time is on My Side? They were torturing a demon in that episode to find who held Dean's contract.

Well, dang...I've been corrected about the torture!  Lol.  (And one, I don't think I've seen anyone else mention - Sam torturing the demon to find out where Demon!Dean went.)

13 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

This has been one of my fears. After all, technically the bunker does belong more to the BMoL than to S&D.

No, I disagree.  First - it belonged to the American MoL.  Of which there are none left, save Sam and Dean.  Second, I thought the American Mol originally sent a contingent over to GB to establish the BMoL?