S12.E14: The Raid

[Diane]

SAMMY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER - A chance to take out a nest of vampires backfires when the alpha-vamp shows up and turns the tables on Mary (guest star Samantha Smith) and The British Men of Letters, who are doing their best to recruit Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles).  Writer: Robert Berens, Director: John MacCarthy.

[Mick Lady]

And we look for catrox, in 3,2,1...

[Annwhite7519]

I just saw a couple of previews. Yikes! One where Dean storms out and the other he's no where to be found. I am a bit anxious about this one.

[Geordiegirl1967]

1 hour ago, Annwhite7519 said:

I just saw a couple of previews. Yikes! One where Dean storms out and the other he's no where to be found. I am a bit anxious about this one.

Me too. I have commented in the spoilers thread as I assume this one is spoiler free?

[SueB]

4 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Me too. I have commented in the spoilers thread as I assume this one is spoiler free?

Yes, previews discussed in spoiler thread as sometimes they give away quite a bit. 

[catrox14]

[Mick Lady]

It's about time!

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

It's about time!

Sorry. Been a rough couple of days for me. :(

[SueB]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sorry. Been a rough couple of days for me. :(

Hope it's a better night tonight.  :)

[Mick Lady]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sorry. Been a rough couple of days for me. :(

Aw hell catrox, it's been a rough year for you! I sincerely hope thing start to improve, soon! 

Wish tonight was a Dean centric episode, that would cheer you up!

[catrox14]

Thanks, it will be okay.

At this point I just hope for an episode that doesn't make me want to put a rusty spork in my eye.  Last night's Arrow almost made me do that. LOL

[rue721]

Wow, that was pretty interesting! I liked it.

Also drank wine with it because I didn't have time to actually cook anything before watching. So uh. Probably shouldn't say more ;)

[catrox14]

So Dean has his say. FINALLY says that he was NEVER A CHILD and Mary is being an asshole......and by the end he's essentially apologizing for being pissed at Mary. Goddamit. I am so sick of that shit.

BOO for killing the Alpha Vamp BOOOOOO!!!!!!

And Sam is okay with 'rogue' hunters being "handled". WTF is that shit about.
I totally called Toni and Ketch being a thing. I'll find my comment for posterity sake.

I have to wonder...was that whole thing a set up to recruit Sam??

Dean. If you left now and never came back...I would not be upset. I would not blame you and I kind of might encourage you to find a place where you don't have to apologize for your emotions. Fuck.

I'm pissed.

Edited March 3, 2017 by catrox14

[Jediknight]

That was really good.

I liked seeing The Alpha back, and hey Sammy got to kill something with the Colt.  Ketch and Dean worked well in their scenes together, and it looks like the storyline going forward is that Dean is going to still question the British Men of Letters and their methods, while Sam is on their side till he finds out they've killed innocent people.

About the only things I had a problem with were I would have liked to have seen more vampires vs Sam, Mary and the BMoL, and Sam should have mentioned Lenore's group as vampires that don't hunt humans.

And man, Ketch really looks like John Barrowman.  I keep wondering why Malcolm is on the show.

[AwesomO4000]

How long until it all goes wrong and Dean gets to say "I told you so?"

*Sigh*

[MysteryGuest]

Boy, where to start...

Loved the opening scenes.  Was very happy to see both Sam and Dean expressing how they felt about what Mary did.  Loved Dean telling her he never had a chance to be a child.

I was ok with how the story unfolded.  The way Sam went to Mary worked for me.  I was very happy that he wasn't just caving to what she wanted.

Wasn't really crazy about Dean doing anything for a drink.  That bothered me.  And I'm also not happy with the perception of Dean as this cold-blooded killer.  When he had the MOC, maybe, but he is nothing like Ketch and I resent even the slight inference that he is.

Hated that again we have Dean driving off, but not arriving till after everything is over.  I get that Jensen needed time off, but I still didn't like it.

Also hated that they killed the Alpha Vamp, and really, really hated that Sam is now onboard.  I fell for his line to the Alpha about how things were with hunters and vampires.  I guess that was just BS.  I really do not like the idea of these high tech monster killers.  It ruins everything this show has been about for 12 years.  And now we get to watch Sam try to sway Dean to their side, which is also going to piss me off.  He'd better not cave.  We're supposed to see that the BMOL are dicks and that this sterile extermination of everything considered to be a monster is wrong, but I'm not so sure that's how this is going to end anymore.

[rue721]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I have to wonder...was that whole thing a set up to recruit Sam??

I think so? Both Mary and Sam kept talking about how this was ~so not~ a recruitment and ~so not~ a sales pitch etc.

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Also hated that they killed the Alpha Vamp, and really, really hated that Sam is now onboard.

Could be a double cross? Maybe Sam and Dean are working together in secret to take the BMOL just like Sam and the slight British dude were working together to load the gun and get the Alpha Vamp?

I wonder about that because of how Sam called back to Dean's request that he "pick a side"

[MysteryGuest]

53 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I have to wonder...was that whole thing a set up to recruit Sam??

I don't think so.  They all almost got killed, so it's a pretty risky way to recruit someone.  I think he was supposed to come and see their ever so impressive set up and be swayed by that, but the Alpha Vamp showing up was not part of the plan, IMO.  

53 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

and by the end he's essentially apologizing for being pissed at Mary. Goddamit. I am so sick of that shit.

This pissed me off too.  And not a damn thing said about her stealing the colt and not telling them.  Why the hell should he apologize to her for anything.  She should be the one apologizing.  

This episode had some really good scenes, and lots of action, but then it shit the bed at the end, as far as I'm concerned.  I don't want more brother against brother crap.  I don't want Sam being wrong, again.  I don't want Sam or Dean falling for this shit.  

This is a show about monsters.  The MOTW episodes have always been some of my favorites.  The idea of just wiping out entire species of monsters with some machine just feels wrong on so many levels.  I want them to fail, big time!

Edited March 3, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I think so? Both Mary and Sam kept talking about how this was ~so not~ a recruitment and ~so not~ a sales pitch etc.

Could be a double cross? Maybe Sam and Dean are working together in secret to take the BMOL just like Sam and the slight British dude were working together to load the gun and get the Alpha Vamp?

I wonder about that because of how Sam called back to Dean's request that he "pick a side"

I hope this is the case. I would be down for them doing that.

I especially can't fathom how Sam would be okay with "rogue" hunters being "handled".  What will define a rogue hunter? Anyone that doesn't work with BMoL.

Please let this be a ruse. Cause otherwise, Sam is on my poop list for endorsing what sounds like torture of hunters. 

[Katy M]

I hate hate hate hate hate, (you get the point) the gadgets.  Not a James Bond fan.  I hate that Sam decided to join up and is apparently going to try to manipulate his brother with half-truths and lies.  Just when I thought we were going to get a bro-war free season.

I liked the PIerce twist, mostly because I didn't see it coming.  I agree that Sam (and Mary) should not be on board for "unpleasantness."

I liked the Mick bullet pass off.

I hated all the gadgets.  I know already said that, but I can't reiterate enough.

I don't really understand why the Alpha came in all alone and I don't understand why he didn't rush Sam.  HOnestly, I expect more from the Alpha.

And, unless there was dead man's blood involved, I expect more from any vampire than just letting some british dude beat her silly.

I have no problem with Dean being mad at Mary.  He has the right to have whatever feelings he wants.  However, I do agree that Mary had a point. She's not just a mom.  And Sam and Dean aren't kids.  Mary died.  Not on purpose.  It's not really her fault (unless we blame her deal, which I suppose we can) that Dean did not have a childhood.  It sucks, but you can't go backwards in life. 

And, no, Sam, this is not a good idea.  I know, I already said that, too.  But, these are my two big takeaways from this episode.  1. Gadgets are bad.  2. Sam is going to betray Dean, yet again.

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I especially can't fathom how Sam would be okay with "rogue" hunters being "handled".  What will define a rogue hunter? Anyone that doesn't work with BMoL.

Please let this be a ruse. Cause otherwise, Sam is on my poop list for endorsing what sounds like torture of hunters. 

Yes, absolutely.  If we look at it from a point of logic, Sam has gone rogue numerous times himself.  Drinking demon blood, starting the Apocalypse, probably pretty much everything he did while soulless.  And Dean while he had the Mark of Cain and was a demon.  These two should not be endorsing torture for people who do bad things. 

[Lemuria]

So Sam got to see that their fancy base was "not built for defense," which was stupid.  (I mean, really?  Who builds a base from which you intend to hunt monsters and doesn't take into account the need for making its defensive capabilities formidable?)  That they had no backup plan, which was stupid.  That they kept the Colt even though they had no way of making bullets, which was useless.  And that they didn't approach Dean and Sam about it (they didn't have to tell them that they got the gun from Mary), even though if they know everything they said they did, they knew that the brothers and Bobby had found a way to re-arm the Colt--yet more stupid.

And yet, Sam still wants to join them.  Am I supposed to think that's smart?

I agree catrox:  I actually liked the beginning, where Dean did not back down and where he finally brought up that he had never  been child.  Then they had him apologize.  Yet again in this series.  

I'm just going to hold onto what Dean told God to get Chuck to apologize to Lucifer:  That you didn't even really have to mean it; he did it all the time!  

[rue721]

So wait, did we find out why the BMOL wanted the Colt in the first place?

[ILoveReading]

Another ep that is going on my never watch again list.     It's just another episode where Dean doesn't matter.  At least the 4th time this season its happened.  Berens, Perez and Dabb all seem to have no use for Dean.

After an epic opening we go one step forward 10 seasons back to Dean being the whipping boy.  Everything he said to Mary was the truth, but of course he has to be made to take it back an apologize.  No.  Just no.  But that was written on the wall the minute Dean spoke his mind

I'm so tired of the show making Dean arrive just after the action is all over just so Sam can get the kill. 

I don't want the Alpha dead. 

11 years of show history thrown out the window.  Sam's always the one championing monsters.  Why is it no one mentioned this

Sam going behind Dean's back.  Not surprising, he picked the Brits side.

The Brits are lousy hunters, planners and intelligence gathers.  Shouldn't it be a red flag that no hunter worth his salt wants anything to do with them. 

They suck.  Why would anyone want to work with them. 

Sam's okay with humans being "handled"

Mary and Sam are lying about the colt.

But I'm sure Dean will have to apologize to Sam when he gets mad at Sam lying to him.

Terrible episode all the way around.  I'd give it a one for the epic opening if they hadn't ruined it.  0 out of 10

Edited March 3, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, rue721 said:

So wait, did we find out why the BMOL wanted the Colt in the first place?

Presumably to kill things.  Unlike other people, I don't think they had a specific grand plan to use it for any one monster.

[Morrigan2575]

17 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

And man, Ketch really looks like John Barrowman.  I keep wondering why Malcolm is on the show.

It's so bad, it takes me out of the show some times.

I'm bummed they killed the Alpha, I liked him.

I don't trust the BMOL and I'm a wee bit annoyed that Sam joined them. I get why he did it but, I don't really like it.

[DeeDee79]

I enjoyed the episode for the most part until the end. I liked that they picked up where last week's episode left off and we were able to hear what was being discussed. I really liked Dean laying it all out for Mary and Sam not hiding his disappointment with all that she's been keeping from them. They may be adults but she wants to be "family" and you don't do shit like that to family when you actually give a damn about them. My irritation started with the spat about choosing a side before Dean went for a drink because I don't want all of her crap with the BMOL to put them at odds; that's been done to death in previous seasons. By the end where Dean was apologizing for having feelings for fucks sake and Sam deciding that he was on board the ep went from a B to a F for me. Why??!!!!

[MysteryGuest]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I especially can't fathom how Sam would be okay with "rogue" hunters being "handled".  What will define a rogue hunter? Anyone that doesn't work with BMoL.

Sam, Dean and Mary just stood there when they took the hunter off to kill him, so apparently, that's all good.  I didn't like that scene either.

 

6 minutes ago, Katy M said:

However, I do agree that Mary had a point. She's not just a mom.  And Sam and Dean aren't kids.  Mary died.  Not on purpose.  It's not really her fault (unless we blame her deal, which I suppose we can) that Dean did not have a childhood.  It sucks, but you can't go backwards in life. 

I don't think Dean ever indicated that he expected Mary to mother him that way.  Maybe she could just pretend that she liked him, at least a little.  I don't think that's asking too much.  She told him he was acting like a child which is when he said he'd never been a child.  She doesn't seem to have a fucking clue what kind of life her sons have led, which is mind boggling to me.

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

That they kept the Colt even though they had no way of making bullets, which was useless.  And that they didn't approach Dean and Sam about it (they didn't have to tell them that they got the gun from Mary), even though if they know everything they said they did, they knew that the brothers and Bobby had found a way to re-arm the Colt--yet more stupid.

Actually, I'm not going to blame them much for that.  Of course, they would keep it.  I'm sure they were working on a way to figure out how to make bullets. No matter how they got it, Sam and Dean probably wouldn't help them.  Might even try to steal it back for themselves.  And, much as I love Bobby, this is one thing he doesn't really get credit for. Ruby is the one who showed him how to make the bullets.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

She should be the one apologizing.

And she's apologized for nothing!! A half assed apologizing after which you immediately try to justify what you've been doing is not a true apology.

[ParadoxLost]

Sam being ready to join up with the British Men of Letters isn't tracking for me.

He was practically full on crying when he found out Mary stole the Colt.

Is this all supposed to be some deeper thing with Sam and his reaction to his Mom's return?  Dean is overtly reacting with his abandonment issue front and center.  Sam seems to be burying it and I'm expecting he'll lose it at some point. 

Is his joining the BMoL just a ploy to protect his Mom and keep her close?  Because finding out the BMoL are basically pencil pushers that send out Hunters and their BMoL equivalent to fight in the muck is the least inspiring reason to join up that I could have thought of.  Oh, and the torture... bygones.

[rue721]

6 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Presumably to kill things.  Unlike other people, I don't think they had a specific grand plan to use it for any one monster.

I guess, but why did they want it NOW? They sent Mary after it like they actually had something in mind...?

If they just wanted to have it to have it, seems like they could at least have waited until they knew how to make the bullets before sending Mary in to fetch it.

I'm wondering if they wanted it because they knew that it was A Big Deal to the Winchesters and they want to use it as some kind of recruitment/loyalty/whatever tool. But who knows.

ETA:  On a meta level, I feel like the show pulled the Colt back into play because they're setting up a big Mary v. Last Surviving YED showdown.

5 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Sam, Dean and Mary just stood there when they took the hunter off to kill him, so apparently, that's all good.  I didn't like that scene either.

Yeah, totally weird! Gotta be more to that, right?

Edited March 3, 2017 by rue721

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

It's so bad, it takes me out of the show some times.

IF ONLY it was John Barrowman. I would be so happy

[Lemuria]

Quote

Yeah, totally weird! Gotta be more to that, right?

Especially when we just saw Dean stop Ketch from continuing to torture a vampire for information.

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, Lemuria said:

Especially when we just saw Dean stop Ketch from continuing to torture a vampire for information.

Unless that was to show more dichotomy.  Dean stopped Ketch from torturing a vamp and Sam and Mary said "good" to the unpleasant handling of rogue hunters.

[Lemuria]

Quote

Unless that was to show more dichotomy.  Dean stopped Ketch from torturing a vamp and Sam and Mary said "good" to the unpleasant handling of rogue hunters.

Good point.  

[AwesomO4000]

2 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

And yet, Sam still wants to join them.  Am I supposed to think that's smart?

Apparently Sam being at all intelligent went out the window when Gamble left the show.

I would love to be wrong and that this be some sort of con or plan by Sam, but I'm guessing that it's going to be straight up Sam tries to convince Dean and either he agrees and they get in deep and Dean has to get them out, or Dean says no or only pretends to give in and eventually everything goes wrong and Dean gets to say I told you so. And Sam must go back to only listening to Dean since obviously according to the current writing crew he is an idiot.

2 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

Sam being ready to join up with the British Men of Letters isn't tracking for me.

He was practically full on crying when he found out Mary stole the Colt.

I know. What the hell? Is Sam only allowed to have feelings as long as it doesn't interfere with the plot? But nope, his being upset is immediately put aside so that he can say "sign me up, and don't worry, I'll work on Dean." Not to mention earlier in the episode, he and Dean weer firmly on the same page, and he hadn't even found out about the Colt betrayal yet.

That better all have been a ruse, because I'm not up for another round of Sam does something because the plot dictates he does so that he can take the opposite view from Dean and then be proven wrong again.

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, AwesomO4000 said:

That better all have been a ruse, because I'm not up for another round of Sam does something because the plot dictates he does so that he can take the opposite view from Dean and then be proven wrong again.

I hadn't even thought of that (probably because it will turn out it isn't), but yes, a ruse would fix everything.  Some kind of double-cross so that they can I don't know what.  But, yeah, they go back to the bunker, Sam tells Dean his plan to destroy the BMOLs in a way where they can also save Mary from them, Dean is on board, they work together with minimal angst.  Why do I not have high hopes for this scenario?

[AwesomO4000]

21 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I especially can't fathom how Sam would be okay with "rogue" hunters being "handled".  What will define a rogue hunter? Anyone that doesn't work with BMoL.

The same Sam who wouldn't give up hunters' names while being tortured, because he thought that they might "end up in the same chair." But apparently all of that is forgotten, so that Sam can say "sign me up."

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And Sam must go back to only listening to Dean since obviously according to the current writing crew he is an idiot.

Neither of them have been written in the best light; all of the shine seems to be going to the writing for Mary. The writers seem to be moving towards the overused brother against brother story line with this episode. I don't want to watch anymore of that crap.

[MysteryGuest]

I think they knew about the lore of the Colt, and may just got some intel on who now had it.  I don't know if it was an attempt to recruit anyone, but I hate that finding out Mary stole it didn't even seem to ping on Sam's radar too much.  I wonder if Dean will even find out about it?

I really was hoping we would see the American hunters banding together to take on the BMOL, but the further into this season we get, the more I think that's unlikely.  

I genuinely hate that Sam was so easily swayed by this fiasco of a plan.  And sadly, I don't buy that it's some sort of scheme between Sam and Dean.  They had no time to concoct any such plan.    

[Boopsahoy]

8 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

Especially when we just saw Dean stop Ketch from continuing to torture a vampire for information.

This really stuck out to me. I think Dean is going to show Sam they are being monsters themselves (Ketch and Company) and will end yup swaying him away from the BMOL. Well, I HOPE that's the way it goes.

Way to make me cry show-"I was never a child"

I was sorry they killed the Alpha Vamp I always liked him.

I REALLY dislike Ketch. Don't you dare call Dean a killer! Yes when he had the MOC but that's not him now.

[AwesomO4000]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

I genuinely hate that Sam was so easily swayed by this fiasco of a plan.

I do too, but I'm not surprised. I pretty much predicted that this is what would happen in the "Spoilers" thread.

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I have no problem with Dean being mad at Mary.  He has the right to have whatever feelings he wants.  However, I do agree that Mary had a point. She's not just a mom. 

IMO, Dean played the the "just be Mom" card in the same way that Mary played the "because family" card .He fought fire with fire.  That's why his apology at the end was a pile of bullshit.

5 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

The same Sam who wouldn't give up hunters' names while being tortured, because he thought that they might "end up in the same chair." But apparently all of that is forgotten, so that Sam can say "sign me up."

Right that's my point. It doesn't make any sense other than this HAS to be a ploy. IT JUST HAS TO BE.

[catrox14]

Line of the episode.
 

"America is MY home. Now. GET OFF. MY. LAWN". 

R.I.P. Alpha Vamp. You deserved better :(

[ParadoxLost]

15 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I know. What the hell? Is Sam only allowed to have feelings as long as it doesn't interfere with the plot? But nope, his being upset is immediately put aside so that he can say "sign me up, and don't worry, I'll work on Dean." Not to mention earlier in the episode, he and Dean weer firmly on the same page, and he hadn't even found out about the Colt betrayal yet.

But Dean was getting on Sam's case for trying to play peace maker with Mary and wanting to get in touch with her.  He went as far as saying Sam did the same thing with Cas and needed to pick a side.  So I think that is indicative of some beat they want to play up later.

It's why I'm thinking he's having as hard of a time as Dean is with how Mary has been acting but is hiding it better for now but will likely have an epic meltdown down the road.

I'm to the point where I think he is BSing the BMoL just because he is sure that if Mary would steal the Colt then she won't quit BMoL just because he asks.  And now he knows that they are picking fights they are unprepared to deal with and that Mary will be on the front lines when it backfires. 

This is all based on how emotional Sam when Mary admitted she stole the Colt.  It was WTF levels of strange.

Edited March 3, 2017 by ParadoxLost

[Macbeth]

I really liked this episode - in that - I really feel they need to drastically change things up.  Like Angel S5 change things, when Angel and crew went to work at the law firm and got to play with the new toys and deal with the consequences of their choices. 

Unfortunately the BMOL will probably just be around for this season.  And really the writers are not capable of pulling an Angel S5. 

I did enjoy my man from Battlestar Galactica being a hunter for the Alpha vamp.   Nice - especially as he ended up being a Cylon on BG. 

[MysteryGuest]

18 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

That better all have been a ruse, because I'm not up for another round of Sam does something because the plot dictates he does so that he can take the opposite view from Dean and then be proven wrong again.

I don't want that, either.  I was thrilled in the opening scene when they were absolutely both on the same page.  That's how it's supposed to be.  And even after Sam went to meet Mary, he was still not buying any of what they were selling.  Then all of a sudden, after a totally botched mission, he suddenly thinks they have the right idea?  I'd love to think he has a plan, but I don't trust the show to do this.   

Apparently hunters are not a forgiving lot.  Dean watched them drag the guy away, too, and didn't say a word.  In the Asa Fox episode, they were fully intent on shunning the hunter who's only real crime was lying about the accidental death of Asa.  He didn't kill the guy, but it didn't matter.  In this case, the hunter didn't just betray the BMOL, he was actively in cahoots with the Alpha Vamp, and had been for a while.  To me, that means he probably turned a blind eye on killings, since he was being paid off, so personally, this guy sort of deserved whatever he got.  But it was still an uncomfortable scene.  I don't like the implication that Sam and Dean are in the least bit ok with the murder of humans.

Edited March 3, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[Commando Cody]

That scene with Ketch showing up at Dean's reminded me of Dean showing up at Rufus's.  They should just build a bus station outside the bunker. Everybody knows where it is and just shows up. 

We haven't seen the Alpha Vamp since season 7 and they kill him off? I'm really disappointed. The one good thing about it is they let Sam have the kill this time. It might not be Dean killing Hitler, but he doesn't always get to kill the big guys like Dean does. 

I'm done with the BMoL. I'm ready to move on to the next lame thing the writers can come up with. 

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

"America is MY home. Now. GET OFF. MY. LAWN".

I was really hoping for some follow through on this. 

[catrox14]

I LOVED Dean putting that wall up with Mary by calling her "Mary" instead of Mom. That was great. So much great in that opening scene.  Just to throw it all fucking away in the end. 

.

[auntvi]

6 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

I did enjoy my man from Battlestar Galactica being a hunter for the Alpha vamp.   Nice - especially as he ended up being a Cylon on BG. 

Chief!!