S12.E14: The Raid

[SueB]

@AwesomO4000  I WISH I could pull you off the ledge, but I'm not sure I can.  They certainly set up "Dean has ultimately got the better instincts". I say that because they had Dean step in and take over the interrogation.  They are LEADING US to say "the BMoL is a bad idea."

Okay, I'll offer up one ray of hope: Sam said 'he's in', but he hasn't listed his terms yet.  So, until we see Sam offer terms, I'm not sure his definition of "in" is "whatever the BMoL think".  Because CLEARLY the BMoL screwed the pooch in this episode.

I don't think Sam and Dean are working on a ruse, however.  But Sam MAY be playing a long-game with everyone.  Keep everyone talking and gradually shape a better answer.  Sam is clearly okay with 'changing the world'.  I'm NOT.  Not because I like people dying, but the BMoL 'toys' are not a fair fight.  And I'm okay with some advantage, but it seems like more than that.  

Maybe Sam will negotiate a middle ground.  Maybe not.  So there... @AwesomO4000 , Sam IS smart and there's a potential his 'solution' is not what it seems.

Which brings me to my short and not-so-sweet The Good, The Bad, and the FUGLY (F*cking Ugly for those who don't know that one):

The Good:
- CATHARTIC yelling at Mary.  I was Team Dean.  I was actually okay with him pulling out the thermonuclear "Mary" comment.  I wasn't keen on showing her the door but I could live with it under the circumstances. Sam didn't yell but he was supporting Dean and backed up the "leave" comment.
- Bonus Yay! for confession including the Lake House and Dean pointing out that Cas almost died.
- Decent communication and solidarity b/w the boys at the start. Sam did hide his phone but he had not read his messages so he wasn't in secret communication with Mary.
- Jared Padalecki was excellent as an action hero tonight.  He doesn't often get to be the main action hero and he did very well.  He also NAILED the reaction when he saw the Colt.  I hope Mary felt like slug-shit.  She should have.
- The BMoL had their ass handed to them.
- The request for Sam to come and his unambiguous stand-offishness at the start.  I liked that.
- Mick was reasonably humble.  Although his skin is too pale for that scruff.
- "Get off my lawn!" -- It was a BadAss performance until it wasn't. 
 

The Bad:
- I had to headcannon that Dean went with Ketch to check out his skills, because it was a vamp nest and they need to go, AND he could get in some anger management. It's not a HUGE leap so I'll say that's closer to "meh" than truly BAD.
- Mary telling Sam to come urgently.  Don't pull that shit Mary.  I hope Sam has cottoned on that Mary is manipulative.  
- Dean's apology.  I rewatched JUST that scene, and the dialog is not as bad the second time around.  He's basically saying he doesn't want to lose her and he knows she's not going to be a 'stay at home Mom'.  But MAN.  I didn't want such a conciliatory tone.  I wish he had said, it was wrong of you to lie to us but .... and then say he doesn't expect her life to be 'just their Mom'.  He did withhold approval of her working with the BMoL, so there's that.
 

The FUGLY:
- SCREW YOU Dabb for killing the Alpha Vamp! Not cool.  Not cool.  I was not remotely bothered by it being Sam (vice Dean) because I don't keep "count" on stuff like that.  Sam EARNED that kill this episode.  And he did it well.  I just didn't want the Alpha Vamp to die. 
- I feel manipulated right now.  I think they are clearly showing us that the BMoL is not the right path and yet we are watching BOTH Sam and Mary being aligned on that path.  I think they'll do something to course correct but I want Sam driving the course correction.
- Not stopping the BMoL from killing the stooge.  Now it's not 100% it's going to be murder, but I think all 3 Winchesters essentially signed off on the dude's death.  That's not cool in my book.  At all.

Bottom Line on first watch. Some emotionally satisfying writing that hit ALL THE FEELS at the start.  The apology at the end and Sam saying "I'm in" are not good.  I'll reserve final judgement on "I'm in" as I think the Show is playing us right now.  

Edited March 3, 2017 by SueB

[ILoveReading]

42 minutes ago, Katy M said:

 However, I do agree that Mary had a point. She's not just a mom. ]

The problem with this is that Dean never really had a chance to form any expectations.  After Mary showed up, Dean was dealing with finding Sam.  Then they went right into a hunt.  THat's hardly expecting tuckins and soup.  Then Mary left. 

It seems more like a tell rather than a show but it doesn't work when Mary has hardly spent any time with her sons.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, SueB said:

Dean's apology.  I rewatched JUST that scene, and the dialog is not as bad the second time around.  He's basically saying he doesn't want to lose her and he knows she's not going to be a 'stay at home Mom'.  But MAN.  I didn't want such a conciliatory tone.  I wish he had said, it was wrong of you to lie to us but .... and then say he doesn't expect her life to be 'just their Mom'.  He did withhold approval of her working with the BMoL, so there's that.

But even that is bullshit, because it's not been shown at all that is all Dean was wanting or expecting from Mary. It's making Dean out to be some sexist asshole who can't cotton his mom hunting when we KNOW he admired her hunting skills in the past.

It's so stupid.

[Katy M]

16 minutes ago, Commando Cody said:

They should just build a bus station outside the bunker. Everybody knows where it is and just shows up. 

At least Ketch knocked, everybody and everything else just walks in.

[MysteryGuest]

So now that Sam has signed up with the BMOL, we can expect him to start lying to Dean about where he goes and what he's doing.  He's not going to come right out and tell him, because he has to bring him around to their side slowly.  I so, so, so hate this plan.  

The lying between brothers bullshit has been played to death, and it always ended badly.  At this point in the series, it's just a cheap, lazy way to drive the plot because the writers aren't clever enough to come up with something else.  I'm so not looking forward to this. 

[AwesomO4000]

7 minutes ago, SueB said:

I don't think Sam and Dean are working on a ruse, however.  

I should've been more clear. I know Sam and Dean aren't working a ruse. I meant just Sam in that he's saying that he's "in" but really he's not entirely "in."

For one, unless he's gotten to be a better liar - which he's not really that good at it - his "they way it should/used to be" shtick to the Alpha vamp seemed to have at least a bit of authenticity to it, especially after his huge list of stupid he called the MoL on (no contingency plan, no weapons at the ready, no fortification, etc). And then his upset at the Colt reveal. Am I really supposed to buy Sam's "I'm in" as genuine after all of that? Because I'm not, and if it's true I'm gonna call the plot trumping Sam's feelings and previous actions again. Because if it is a genuine "I'm in" Sam was all over the map emotion-wise and action-wise this episode - geesh.

[Mick Lady]

I'm just spit balling...but the BMoL went after all vamps. What's up next, Werewolfs? Will we see Garth again? How will the boys react to that?

[SueB]

1 minute ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I should've been more clear. I know Sam and Dean aren't working a ruse. I meant just Sam in that he's saying that he's "in" but really he's not entirely "in."

For one, unless he's gotten to be a better liar - which he's not really that good at it - his "they way it should/used to be" shtick to the Alpha vamp seemed to have at least a bit of authenticity to it, especially after his huge list of stupid he called the MoL on (no contingency plan, no weapons at the ready, no fortification, etc). And then his upset at the Colt reveal. Am I really supposed to buy Sam's "I'm in" as genuine after all of that? Because I'm not, and if it's true I'm gonna call the plot trumping Sam's feelings and previous actions again. Because if it is a genuine "I'm in" Sam was all over the map emotion-wise and action-wise this episode - geesh.

I TOTALLY agree with you.  I think ultimately, my feelings towards this episode will be based on how they handle the Sam/BMoL story.  

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

So now that Sam has signed up with the BMOL, we can expect him to start lying to Dean about where he goes and what he's doing.  He's not going to come right out and tell him, because he has to bring him around to their side slowly.  I so, so, so hate this plan.  

And this is basically the same thing that happened in season four to cause the rift between them. Sam lying to Dean when he was going to meet up with Ruby, trying to bring Dean around to him using his powers and drinking demon blood followed by the season ender with the brothers estranged.

[MysteryGuest]

Just now, Mick Lady said:

I'm just spit balling...but the BMoL went after all vamps. What's up next, Werewolfs? Will we see Garth again? How will the boys react to that?

We talked about that possibility a while ago.  It's a slippery slope once you start annihilating entire species without even thinking about it.  It absolutely shouldn't sit well with Sam and Dean, but I'm not sure we can count on these writers to remember that.

5 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I meant just Sam in that he's saying that he's "in" but really he's not entirely "in."

I would be so onboard with this.  I really want this show to finally show the boys for the smart men they're supposed to be.  They've been doing this their whole lives.  They've literally battled heaven and hell.  Surely they're smart enough to know that this type of killing is not a good idea.  Killing monsters who kill is one thing, but just wiping every monster off the face of the earth is a bit extreme.  I hope Sam truly meant what he said and that he's just going to go along with them to get more intel on what they're doing.  That would be awesome, AWESOMO4000!

[ahrtee]

7 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

And this is basically the same thing that happened in season four to cause the rift between them. Sam lying to Dean when he was going to meet up with Ruby, trying to bring Dean around to him using his powers and drinking demon blood followed by the season ender with the brothers estranged.

I didn't get the feeling that Sam is planning to lie to Dean (or even that he might feel it's necessary)...I thought that he was planning to talk to him and explain what he'd seen/thought.   I thought Dean's comment to Mary about being an adult and making [her] own decisions, even if he disagrees with it, meant that he would take that line with Sam as well.  So I could see them being on opposite sides, but I don't think either one is going to sneak around about it, especially after seeing how betrayed they both felt about Mary lying to them.  

[rue721]

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, Dean played the the "just be Mom" card in the same way that Mary played the "because family" card .He fought fire with fire.  That's why his apology at the end was a pile of bullshit.

I feel like Dean was ALREADY acknowledging that they weren't children and the relationship wasn't going to be some 1950s idealized parent/child relationship in that first convo. I thought that's what his "I was never a kid" meant. Like, it's not only too late now, it's BEEN too late. So the apology at the end didn't really make sense to me as a resolution to that.

Also, the issue is Mary falling in with the wrong crowd and being reckless, not her SONS being like that, so the whole dilemma seems a little flipped on its head anyway. Which made that through-line of "Dean knows Mary isn't going to be his 'mommy'" kind of irrelevant to the storyline actually playing out onscreen?

I kind of wish that conversation could have been between Sam and Dean rather than all three of them, because I think it could have had more nuance. But eh. Guess it also did need to be said.

13 minutes ago, SueB said:

Okay, I'll offer up one ray of hope: Sam said 'he's in', but he hasn't listed his terms yet.  So, until we see Sam offer terms, I'm not sure his definition of "in" is "whatever the BMoL think".  Because CLEARLY the BMoL screwed the pooch in this episode.

The thing that makes me wonder about where Sam's loyalties lie is that he said that he was picking a side *while* playing the Alpha Vamp *with* Mick. I don't know if he was trying to say that he was joining the side of the humans/BMOL v the monsters or if that callback was him tipping his hand that he was still on Dean's side or what. It seems so weirdly snarky for him to say that he was picking a side AGAINST Dean while making a callback to Dean's request of him?

14 minutes ago, SueB said:

- CATHARTIC yelling at Mary.  I was Team Dean.  I was actually okay with him pulling out the thermonuclear "Mary" comment.  I wasn't keen on showing her the door but I could live with it under the circumstances. Sam didn't yell but he was supporting Dean and backed up the "leave" comment.

Yeah, I think I might have literally been like OH SNNNNNNNAP at the end of that. Dean just put it out there. I find that pretty bad ass.

I don't have an opinion about kicking her out, because on the one hand, I would never have done that (that's your MOM man! it's your job to make sure she's OK!), but on the other hand, I think it's pretty in keeping with the rest of the badassery, balls to the wall nature of his side of the conversation. So I dunno.

14 minutes ago, SueB said:

- Mary telling Sam to come urgently.  Don't pull that shit Mary.  I hope Sam has cottoned on that Mary is manipulative.  

She's pretty manipulative, right? I don't think she's pulling out the big guns yet, but I don't know if that's because she's not THAT manipulative or if she just hasn't felt her back against the wall yet.

In a way, her disinterest in Sam and Dean might be good for them, in that maybe that means she won't bother to pull her big guns against them, either. She's KINDA sorta invested in them, but she's ready to drop them if need be, too. So she might not ever get to the point of strongarming them too hard.

14 minutes ago, SueB said:

- Dean's apology.  I rewatched JUST that scene, and the dialog is not as bad the second time around.  He's basically saying he doesn't want to lose her and he knows she's not going to be a 'stay at home Mom'.  But MAN.  I didn't want such a conciliatory tone.  I wish he had said, it was wrong of you to lie to us but .... and then say he doesn't expect her life to be 'just their Mom'.  He did withhold approval of her working with the BMoL, so there's that.

This apology made no sense to me.

15 minutes ago, SueB said:

- Not stopping the BMoL from killing the stooge.  Now it's not 100% it's going to be murder, but I think all 3 Winchesters essentially signed off on the dude's death.  That's not cool in my book.  At all.

Really messed up. To the point that I kind of don't buy it? Why would they make such a point of Dean being disturbed by Ketch beating the shit out of that vampire girl in the beginning only to have him silently collude to the BMOL murdering/torturing a hunter a the end?

30 minutes ago, SueB said:

I think all 3 Winchesters

Awwwww. *All 3.* Very sweet. Regardless of any of Mary's flaws, I am LOVING that there are more than two.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I didn't get the feeling that Sam is planning to lie to Dean (or even that he might feel it's necessary)...I thought that he was planning to talk to him and explain what he'd seen/thought.   I thought Dean's comment to Mary about being an adult and making [her] own decisions, even if he disagrees with it, meant that he would take that line with Sam as well.  So I could see them being on opposite sides, but I don't think either one is going to sneak around about it, especially after seeing how betrayed they both felt about Mary lying to them.  

My response was in regards to this speculation from @MysteryGuest : "So now that Sam has signed up with the BMOL, we can expect him to start lying to Dean about where he goes and what he's doing.  He's not going to come right out and tell him, because he has to bring him around to their side slowly." I'm basically saying that the PTB have been there and done that already in season four and I hope that they don't go down that road again.

Edited March 3, 2017 by DeeDee79

[catrox14]

The more I think about Dean's comments at the end...the more annoyed I am.

1) Dean never demanded that Mary be JUST A MOM all this time. There was ZERO indication that Dean felt this way at all. 

2) Dean saying that Mary is an adult? WTF? OF COURSE Dean knows she's an adult. He's always known this. Dean said the same thing to Sam in s1.  WHAT IS THAT EVEN?

3) That Dean has to let her make her own decisions. SHE'S BEEN MAKING HER OWN DECISIONS all along! Her decisions put her exactly opposite Dean's position which is what was pissing him off.

4) Dean just wanted his Mom around a little bit. He didn't expect her to be home baking cookies.

Argghhhh

Edited March 3, 2017 by catrox14

[Geordiegirl1967]

First thoughts;

A good ep in lots of respects;

+ it kept my interest - lots of twists and turns, action etc

+ loved the Alpha Vamp kill

+ Jared was great in this ep

+ well directed and shot

+ I am warming to Mr Ketch

BUT (and it is a big one)

- why oh why oh why are the writers dividing Dean and Sam on this? Why can't they just be honest with each other? They have learned that lesson on the show over and over yet whenever the writers run out of ideas they trot this old, ooc, lazy and SOOOO not fun to watch trope out again. This ep could have played out almost the same without that element. Sam could have told Dean he was going to hear Mary out. Dean could have called Sam and told him Ketch was there. And at the end Sam AND Dean could've BOTH had the conversation with Mick. I don't have the words to describe how much I hate that they have gone down this road again. If Sam doesn't tell Dean immediately that he thinks THEY should work with BMoL and OPENLY works on persuading him, rather than working with them behind his back,  I am not going to be happy

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I especially can't fathom how Sam would be okay with "rogue" hunters being "handled".  What will define a rogue hunter? Anyone that doesn't work with BMoL.

Why are you putting this just on Sam? Dean was also fine with it. Who cares about their broader definition? D&S had no problem at all with that guy getting what was coming to him.

[MysteryGuest]

11 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I didn't get the feeling that Sam is planning to lie to Dean (or even that he might feel it's necessary)...I thought that he was planning to talk to him and explain what he'd seen/thought.  

When Sam said "just give me time", to me that doesn't mean he's going to run right home and talk to Dean about joining them.  I hope it was a total lie on his part, so that's what I'm going with for now.  Until the show kills my buzz by doing what they normally do.

Edited March 3, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[Mick Lady]

I'm off to rewatch. Too much to think about!

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Why are you putting this just on Sam? Dean was also fine with it. Who cares about their broader definition? D&S had no problem at all with that guy getting what was coming to him.

I'm putting it more on Sam, for two reasons.  1. Sam and Mary said "good,"  Dean said nothing, and he had stopped a vamp from getting tortured earlier.  2. Sam had spent 2 or 3 days, maybe longer, being tortured by the BMOLs. He knows firsthand, in a way that even Dean seeing the results can't know as well.  And, Pierce won't even get an angel healing at the end.

There's literally no reason to torture him.  Just kill him quick and get it over with.  Not that I'm particularly down with vigilante killings, but I doubt that they're just going to let him go.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Why are you putting this just on Sam? Dean was also fine with it. Who cares about their broader definition? D&S had no problem at all with that guy getting what was coming to him.

Ermmm.  I never said it was all on Sam? I didn't mention Dean because I wasn't thinking about Dean because Sam is the one that was tortured and being asked to disclose hunter names.  Sam would be the person LEAST likely to be okay with hunters being tortured.

[Wynne88]

Reading some of these theories has sort of talked me down from the absolute hatred I felt at the end of the episode.  It started off so good - I loved Dean getting to say what he thought, I liked him calling his mother 'Mary' instead of 'Mom', and I liked Sam backing him up and telling her she should go.  But when Sam agreed to meet his mom at the compound and Dean let the wolf in the door in exchange for a bottle of whiskey, it started going sour. Most of the things I really hated (especially Sam signing up) have already been brought up.  But here's one or two other thoughts.

-  When Ketch told Dean that they were alike, that Dean was a killer, I think he was saying what Dean already believed.  He's said things like that himself in the past.  However, when he stepped in when Ketch was hitting the vamp girl, it showed just how different they actually are.  We got to see it; I'm hoping he saw it too.

- I thought the MoLs regarded hunters as second class citizens, useful for doing the dirty work and not much else.  Yet Mary was giving orders to other staff (lock it down!) as though she was used to having authority there, and Ketch certainly doesn't act subservient to any of the 'brains' of the outfit.  Mary's 'awesomeness as a hunter and all around tough lady continues to bother me a lot.  

- I liked the fact that Dean called Sam on the note he left in the bunker, and Sam immediately called him on going out for a drink - and neither seemed all that upset.  I am hoping really hard that this is a sign that they can continue to be a team, even when they don't agree.

- I seriously hope that Sam is simply infiltrating the BMoL since he knows that Mary can't be trusted to tell them everything, and that the next conversation that he and Dean have establishes that fact and segues into figuring out how to use it to their advantage.

[companionenvy]

The episode held my attention, but I'm going to hit the roof if they pull this brother vs. brother BS again - especially if, as usual, it ends with Dean being right all along, and Sam being a royal screw-up. 

And again, the writers are doing a terrible, terrible job articulating the argument against working with the BMOL. The problem with the BMOL isn't that they are high-tech. That's a problem for us as viewers; it shouldn't be one for Sam and Dean as hunters. The problem is that they don't see shades of grey. But neither Sam or Dean has raised that as an objection, so their skepticism rings hollow.

How do they not say "Look, I get you have high-tech ways of killing monsters, and to that extent, maybe we should collaborate. But I'm not going to sign off on indiscriminately killing every supernatural being, even if the end result is a net positive. We've met "good monsters", we've worked with good monsters, and we're not in the business of torturing even the bad ones. And by the way, how far does your definition of "monster" extend? 

But while viewers have seen enough to be having that conversation, none of the Winchesters have deigned to address the issue beyond the personal level of what one member of the BMOL did to Sam. So, the whole conflict is predicated on flimsy grounds. 

As for Dean vs. Mary: I think Dean was unfair to freeze Mary out, and I think he did need to accept her right to make her own decisions. But I hate this manufactured "I shouldn't expect you to just be a mom." Dean has never expected that of her. He's expecting her to have a relationship with them. That's reasonable, and should be treated as such. Also side-eying the show for giving the impression that Dean will just shrug off his vociferously stated objection to entertaining anything the MOL has to say because Ketch brought booze. 

Bizarrely, in spite of all of that, I actually enjoyed the episode. But I'm so nervous about where this is going - I'm not sure if I can take another round of Winchester vs. Winchester. 

[ahrtee]

39 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

3) That Dean has to let her make her own decisions. SHE'S BEEN MAKING HER OWN DECISIONS all along! That's what was pissing him off.

I didn't get that he had to "let her" make her own decisions, because, as Catrox pointed out, she's already been doing that.  I think was he was saying was that he'd have to honor her decisions, even if he didn't agree with them.

37 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Why are you putting this just on Sam? Dean was also fine with it. Who cares about their broader definition? D&S had no problem at all with that guy getting what was coming to him.

I started a long answer to this but Katy and Catrox beat me to it.  IMO, I'm not sure that Dean knew what what's'is'name had done yet, since I think he was lurking in the background when they dragged the guy out in chains. That's not to say Dean wouldn't agree with punishing him, just that I don't think he had the whole picture yet, just like I don't think Sam and Mary had really considered torture as his punishment when they said, "good".  So I'm withholding judgment on a lot of the decisions mentioned at the end until all the Winchesters can compare notes and decide--because I'm pretty sure Sam and Dean, at least, won't tolerate torture, though they wouldn't object to clean killing (like Dean offering the vamp girl a quick kill).  

35 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

When Sam said "just give me time", to me that doesn't mean he's going to run right home and talk to Dean about joining them.  I hope it was a total lie on his part, so that's what I'm going with for now.

I didn't think he was going to run home and try to convince Dean to join them.  I don't think it was a lie, because IMO he's going to talk about what happened and give his own reasons (and explanations) for joining without trying to recruit him.  I think (hope?) if they get a dialog going, Sam can explain his POV, which is from watching Mick and his hapless operatives who seemed to need hunters to protect them/carry out the operations, and Dean can explain his, which is from watching the (IMO) psychopathic Ketch who just wants to kill and doesn't care who or why.  And hopefully they can see that there's something fundamentally wrong with the whole thing and can take it from there.

I don't trust Ketch at all, and while I'm a little more willing to give Mick the benefit of the doubt at the moment, I still don't fully trust him.   If the "big man" wants the Winchesters, the best way to recruit them is to make them feel like they're needed to protect the helpless.  And in that case, the BMoL were depicting themselves as helpless, which was the original way they were set up:  as the brains who sent the "trusted hunters" to do the hard jobs.      

18 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

When Ketch told Dean that they were alike, that Dean was a killer, I think he was saying what Dean already believed.  He's said things like that himself in the past.  However, when he stepped in when Ketch was hitting the vamp girl, it showed just how different they actually are.  We got to see it; I'm hoping he saw it too.

IA with this, though when Ketch was saying that he (and Dean) *have* to kill to feel all right, I immediately thought of  Crowley telling Dean that it was the MoC that was *making* him need to kill in order to stay alive, and hoped that Dean remembered that he *didn't* want to be that way, which is why he tried so hard to get rid of the mark and fought against its influence.  I think (hope?) he still remembers the difference between killing when necessary and killing because it made him feel good, which is why he stopped Ketch from beating the vamp girl.  

Edited March 3, 2017 by ahrtee

[tessathereaper]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I hadn't even thought of that (probably because it will turn out it isn't), but yes, a ruse would fix everything.  Some kind of double-cross so that they can I don't know what.  But, yeah, they go back to the bunker, Sam tells Dean his plan to destroy the BMOLs in a way where they can also save Mary from them, Dean is on board, they work together with minimal angst.  Why do I not have high hopes for this scenario?

Or better yet it's something they've already started doing and the scenes with Mary at the end where they acted like they didn't know, were just play acting for her benefit.  I'd love it if they were working the long con and making it convincing, only to turn the tables at the end of the season when the BMOL's finally go too far/show their real hand only Dean and Sam are completely prepared for it and take 'em down.

[Diane]

Loved that Dean and Sam were able to tell Mary what they thought and sad as it is Dean was never a child. So glad he was able to tell her that. I don't think what Dean said at the end negated that, he is just trying to move on as best as he can. My problem with the BMOL is they are idiots, I'm sorry but they are just not smart. It's like watching the Keystone Cops. Could they be anymore incompetent, I mean seriously it always goes sideways. I am not all that upset about the Alpha Vamp either, for Gods sake he monologued the Winchesters, so he had to die. I also don't really feel like Sam and Dean are keeping secrets, I think that they will talk, they are getting better about it. And heaven help me but I kinda like Ketch. 

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, Diane said:

And heaven help me but I kinda like Ketch

I've gotten over my thing for Ketch when tried to equate Dean to himself and then talked about how Toni is unhinged as though he's not unhinged. And he was taking pleasure in hurting the Vampire. I'll bet Toni's kid is his.

Also, Dean noted Ketch's tattoo. I think he's going to do some research on that symbol.

Edited March 3, 2017 by catrox14

[ILoveReading]

Just now, catrox14 said:

I've gotten over my thing for Ketch when tried to equate Dean to himself and then talked about how Toni is unhinged. I'll be she 's unhinged because of him.

And I'll bet Toni's kid is his.

Also, Dean noted Ketch's tattoo. I think he's going to do some research on that symbol.

That was my thought too, about Toni's kid.  I wish I could believe Dean was going to research the tattoo.  He'd probably get lost on the way to the library and get there after Sam found out what it meant and dealt with it.

[sarthaz]

Don't like killing the Alpha Vamp in such a lame-ass episode, but Rick Worthy looked really frail and un-menacing.  Hope he's doing OK.  4 seasons too late.

[catrox14]

Just now, ILoveReading said:

That was my thought too, about Toni's kid.  I wish I could believe Dean was going to research the tattoo.  He'd probably get lost on the way to the library and get there after Sam found out what it meant and dealt with it.

Nah. Dean remembers symbols. He'll do some digging around the lair IMO

[Diane]

Just now, catrox14 said:

I've gotten over my thing for Ketch when tried to equate Dean to himself and then talked about how Toni is unhinged. I'll be she 's unhinged because of him.

And I'll bet Toni's kid is his.

Also, Dean noted Ketch's tattoo. I think he's going to do some research on that symbol.

Maybe, maybe not I think she is just unhinged, but just my opinion. I think he was comparing Dean and himself more of a soldier type way, not a crazed killer way. I don't think he phrased it right though, Dean is not a killer or a psychopath. 

[tessathereaper]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

That was my thought too, about Toni's kid.  I wish I could believe Dean was going to research the tattoo.  He'd probably get lost on the way to the library and get there after Sam found out what it meant and dealt with it.

Why?  Dean's excellent at symbols, he always has been and he has a great memory for both retaining and using them as we've seen time again.  

[7kstar]

I loved the opening.  I loved seeing Rick Worthy as I enjoyed him on Magnificent Seven. 

I thought that Dean allowing Ketch in to drink was to get a better handle on the guy.  If he knows where you are and acts like he can just come in any time...Plus still not buying that Toni went rogue.

I get why they want all the Winchesters on board.  But it is a bad idea to wipe out all of the monsters especially when they seem to know so little about the alpha Vamp.

The ending is leaving me shaking my head.  Not satisfactory for anyone, I think.  Dean girls will hate the apology and Sam girls hate Sam caving in a way that doesn't make sense.  Won't say it was horrible because I did enjoy part of it and I liked the Alpha Vamp pulling one over the BMOL.  I'm not hopeful about so many of the pieces and the issue that Mary is pulling just doesn't work. 

Being a mom, means getting to know your grown ass sons.  Dean wanting her to be part of his life isn't asking too much.  She's done nothing to show that she loves them.  Maybe that's the problem, she doesn't.  She just loves the children she didn't get to be with.  But I did like Dean saying I never was a child.  He wasn't.  I just wish the conflict wasn't being created just to divide.  I want it to feel as if there was a plan, not flying blind.  Really can't figure out what more to say yet but maybe Ketch will get his due...maybe?

[ILoveReading]

14 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

Why?  Dean's excellent at symbols, he always has been and he has a great memory for both retaining and using them as we've seen time again.  

that was meant as sarcasm about Dean developing a habit of disappearing in 3rd act and missing all the action.

[Zanne]

I found that entire bullet exchange scene insulting to the intelligence of the audience. They showed and then had to go back and tell, like the acting just a few seconds before didn't explain everything. When they replayed that whole damn scene to tell us how Sam got the bullets for the gun, I was ticked. I'm not an idiot, writers. I actually got that the first time. When the writing gets this tedious, it's painful to watch.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Zanne said:

I found that entire bullet exchange scene insulting to the intelligence of the audience. They showed and then had to go back and tell, like the acting just a few seconds before didn't explain everything. When they replayed that whole damn scene to tell us how Sam got the bullets for the gun, I was ticked. I'm not an idiot, writers. I actually got that the first time. When the writing gets this tedious, it's painful to watch.

That was straight out of the "Sherlock" method of storytelling.  And inapt for this show. And yes insulting

[tessathereaper]

23 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

that was meant as sarcasm about Dean developing a habit of disappearing in 3rd act and missing all the action.

LOL.  Not that it isn't sadly true.  Kind of tired of them sending Dean off to disappear for half the episode.

[Wynne88]

Quote

Kind of tired of them sending Dean off to disappear for half the episode.

This time it was kind of necessary, wasn't it?  I'm thinking this is the episode they were filming when his twins were born.  Given the relatively small amount of time he filmed, I thought they got a fair bit of mileage out of him.

[Diane]

1 minute ago, Wynne88 said:

This time it was kind of necessary, wasn't it?  I'm thinking this is the episode they were filming when his twins were born.  Given the relatively small amount of time he filmed, I thought they got a fair bit of mileage out of him.

I thought so too, he was actually in more than I thought he would be.

[Geordiegirl1967]

3 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

I'd love it if they were working the long con and making it convincing, only to turn the tables at the end of the season when the BMOL's finally go too far/show their real hand only Dean and Sam are completely prepared for it and take 'em down.

Me too, but sadly I'm not sure these writers are that creative.

[Geordiegirl1967]

2 hours ago, Zanne said:

I found that entire bullet exchange scene insulting to the intelligence of the audience. They showed and then had to go back and tell, like the acting just a few seconds before didn't explain everything. When they replayed that whole damn scene to tell us how Sam got the bullets for the gun, I was ticked. I'm not an idiot, writers. I actually got that the first time. When the writing gets this tedious, it's painful to watch.

That was actually one of my favourite parts of the episode. I liked that there were twists and turns and some genuine surprises in it and this was one of them. Mick is not an idiot and Sam was so commanding and capable in this ep. This scene showcased that. I liked it. 

[Aeryn13]

Well, Berens gave Sam a bj that would certainly have done Dabb and Perez proud. And killing the Alpha Vamp with the Colt in a manner evoking Dean killing Azazel? Jesus, I thought they got their ya-ya`s out with the Ramiel thing. Probably just a start.   

I liked Dean standing up for himself in the beginning and hated what he had to say in the end. As if he expected Mary to be Suzie Homemaker. He just wanted her to show the slightest bit of interest. Guess, that was too much to ask. Rowena so far has said more good things about Dean than Mary. And she said one thing. 

Didn`t like it when Ketch implied Dean was just a sociopathic killer like him but maybe the vamp scene was supposed to kinda show the opposite. 

Sam joining up makes no sense in the context of the ep so it`s probably a ploy. But not one he will share with Dean because of reasons. 

So, yeah, highly unwatchable for me. 

[shang yiet]

Quote

Kind of tired of them sending Dean off to disappear for half the episode.

Dean always had more screen time than Sam and this time it was due to baby reasons. I'm sure Sam will be the one disappearing later on due to baby.

Why shouldn't Sam get a big kill once in a while? Nobody said anything crude about sexual favours when Dean killed Azazel, Hitler and the others.

[Triskan]

I've seen a lot of frustration, lately, related to Dean being a little bit less present... but personally, I dont mind at all. Maybe I'm wrong but I really have the feeling that overall through the series, he's been put ahead of Sam. Sure, I know, Sam had his moments, but recently, I've felt it has been too much focused on Dean. So I, for one, would gladly see him take a step back and be this Sam season, the character deserves it. 

[Myrelle]

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Dean. If you left now and never came back...I would not be upset. I would not blame you and I kind of might encourage you to find a place where you don't have to apologize for your emotions. Fuck.

I'm pissed.

Yup. Me too. But predictable, predictable, predictable. It's all so old. I FFed through a lot of this one. I loved the opening scene. The Ackting was emmy-worthy in that scene. Even the writing of that one scene was good. I wish it would have ended there, though. Seriously. Because after that the writing crashed and burned completely.

And sorry, but I'm like 99.99999999...% sure that there's no plan whatsoever in place yet to take down the BMoL. Sam gave his reason for being all in. In the end, they took down the Alpha Vamp. The end justifies the means. Again. In fact, Sam will probably talk Dean into working with them-for a while, anyway-same as he did with Ruby. And Dean will try. Same as he did with Ruby. But the Dean scenes with Ketch, and his holding himself back from endorsing the torture of the rogue hunter give me hope that he's still the righteous man of this story-and this in spite of the fact that he's a functioning alcoholic who just can't seem to shake the thought/idea that he's little more than a killer at his core. Oh Dean.

Looks like Berens has now officially joined the school of Dabb and Perez writing.

I loved the Dean/Ketch scenes all the same. They said so much with no dialogue really necessary. So that should explain why I liked them.

Sorry that we lost the Alpha Vamp in such a crappy fashion and in such a crappy episode.

Can't wait for Mother Mary to go back to Heaven. Most disappointing storyline of the season right now to me and now just as bad and horribly written as Lucifer and the devil baby mama drama after this episode.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Myrelle

[Boopsahoy]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Also, Dean noted Ketch's tattoo. I think he's going to do some research on that symbol

I also thought they lingered on that tattoo a little too long for it to not be meaningful.

[DeeDee79]

15 minutes ago, Triskan said:

I've seen a lot of frustration, lately, related to Dean being a little bit less present... but personally, I dont mind at all. Maybe I'm wrong but I really have the feeling that overall through the series, he's been put ahead of Sam. Sure, I know, Sam had his moments, but recently, I've felt it has been too much focused on Dean. So I, for one, would gladly see him take a step back and be this Sam season, the character deserves it. 

Personally I feel that they have both gotten their moments to shine throughout the series and since it's a show about brothers that's the way that it should be. I don't understand all of the comments about Sam the screw up, Dean is never wrong & Sam finally getting a big kill. I don't get the Sam vs. Dean overall tone but it never takes long for it to emerge I guess ☹️

[Boopsahoy]

Quote

That was straight out of the "Sherlock" method of storytelling.  And inapt for this show. And yes insulting

I have to admit, I really thought he was going to let Mick die-so I didn't catch the bullet exchange right away. My husband called it though.

[Myrelle]

7 hours ago, companionenvy said:

And again, the writers are doing a terrible, terrible job articulating the argument against working with the BMOL. The problem with the BMOL isn't that they are high-tech. That's a problem for us as viewers; it shouldn't be one for Sam and Dean as hunters. The problem is that they don't see shades of grey. But neither Sam or Dean has raised that as an objection, so their skepticism rings hollow.

How do they not say "Look, I get you have high-tech ways of killing monsters, and to that extent, maybe we should collaborate. But I'm not going to sign off on indiscriminately killing every supernatural being, even if the end result is a net positive. We've met "good monsters", we've worked with good monsters, and we're not in the business of torturing even the bad ones.

This was addressed sans words in the Dean/Ketch scene with the vampire who they found in hiding, IMO. And right before they went into that building when they were arming up.  I'm sure that it will come up through dialogue again later, but for now, I saw all of this in those two small scenes. Dean's face and mannerisms said it all. And he didn't even lie to her about letting her go. Just gave her the truth because he knew that she knew that her time had come anyway. Loved that. So much.

[Katy M]

16 minutes ago, Boopsahoy said:

I have to admit, I really thought he was going to let Mick die-so I didn't catch the bullet exchange right away. My husband called it though.

I didn't buy that Sam would just let Mick die.  That's totally not Sam (or dean either had he been there).  But, I did not know what his plan was, and I was not able to catch the bullet passover without the flashback, so I actually appreciated that. I would have been left wondering why he didn't just shoot before instead of giving that whole speech.

[SueB]

I thought they did an excellent job of keeping Dean 'present' in the episode while giving Jensen an extra week with his newborns.  

[rue721]

55 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I didn't buy that Sam would just let Mick die.  That's totally not Sam (or dean either had he been there).  But, I did not know what his plan was, and I was not able to catch the bullet passover without the flashback, so I actually appreciated that. I would have been left wondering why he didn't just shoot before instead of giving that whole speech.

I didn't catch the bullet handoff until the flashback, either, so I'm glad they did it, too.

I agree that it's not like Sam to just give up on saving someone...but that's why it was weird at the end when they all just let the BMOL take that hunter away. After showing Sam and Mick working together so that they could save everyone (not just Sam and Mary), and after showing Dean stop Ketch from beating that vampire girl, I have to think that there's more to the Winchesters just letting the BMOL take away that guy? More to Sam and Dean just letting them, anyway. Dunno what's going on with Mary.